From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 07 21:37:15 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BtW0a-000Key-Lg; Sat, 07 Aug 2004 21:33:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 07 Aug 2004 21:33:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BtW0J-000Kej-JG for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 07 Aug 2004 21:33:16 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslg203.osnanet.de [212.95.106.203]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675E33F6BB5; Sat, 7 Aug 2004 20:33:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BtW0H-0000cl-UW; Sat, 07 Aug 2004 20:33:13 +0200 Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 20:33:13 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: Esoteric Lang ML Subject: [lang] [Argh!] Version 0.2.3 released Message-ID: <20040807183313.GA2367@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: Esoteric Lang ML Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/argh-0.2.3.tgz The only change compaired to 0.2.2 is the much enhanced Argh! GNU Emacs Mode. It now includes a buildin interpreter/debugger with interactive and visual execution of Argh! code. Since the released beta version many bugs were fixed and some features were added, for example any Emacs buffer can now be used as input for the running Argh! program. The Emacs Mode can be downloaded without the rest of the distribution here: http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/argh-mode.el The old beta is no longer available... cheers sascha --=20 Sascha Wilde Hauptfunktion einer GUI ist es IMHO, die dadurch verlorene Zeit durch einen h=F6heren Spa=DF-Faktor zu kompensieren. Essentiell ein Computerspiel. -- Rainer Weikusat in d.c.o.u.d -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 10 17:28:48 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BuXXr-0007K4-1B; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:24:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:23:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from uni06mr.unity.ncsu.edu ([152.1.1.169]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BuXXZ-0007Jn-Ce for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:23:50 +0300 Received: from webmail.ncsu.edu (uni06wi.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.146]) by uni06mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040607.01) with SMTP id i7AENhfJ021858 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 152.1.149.167 (SquirrelMail authenticated user bcthomp2) by webmail.ncsu.edu with HTTP; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4094.152.1.149.167.1092147824.squirrel@webmail.ncsu.edu> In-Reply-To: <20040802180003.GB2907@kenny.sha-bang.local> References: <20040802100546.GA5425@ling.helsinki.fi> <410E7155.9080806@dds.nl> <20040802180003.GB2907@kenny.sha-bang.local> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [lang] Re: Some work on my essie From: bcthomp2@ncsu.edu To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.6.1.107272, Antispam-Core: 4.6.1.106808, Antispam-Data: 2004.8.9.109970 X-Spam-Status: No, Hits=10% X-Spam-Level: X X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bcthomp2@ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > Milo wrote: >> Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: >> >> >On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 10:02:26AM -0700, Brian Thompson wrote: >> > >> > >> >>subroutines) to a befunge-type language. I would like to stick to >> >>monocharacter sequences, and probably to the lower 128 ascii for the >> >>sake of portability (windows v. unix v. apple all have different ideas >> >>of what 128-255 are). This limits the number of possible instructions >> >>to about 97 or so. >> >> >> >> >> > >> >Bah, I think it is high time to start to make Unicode-based character >> >cell languages. I think the one place where there is some definite >> need >> >for Unicode is this. >> > >> My problem with Unicode is that I don't have the characters on my >> keyboard. I don't want to go hunting for character codes for every >> instruction in the program. > > Who needs that? One could still calculate the needed character code at > runtime and execute the instruction after generating it... ;-) That is assuming that you actually know what the character code is. If you have no idea what it is, then you might have to break open your huge unicode dictionary just to find out. And sorry to raise an old discussion. I haven't had access to a computer for a week. Brian -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 18 06:19:41 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BxGvZ-000HHL-F8; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:15:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:15:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.132]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BxGvI-000HH7-0F for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:15:36 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i7I3FZ6O009313 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:15:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BxGvG-0001Jv-00 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:15:34 +0300 Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:15:34 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Malbolge website Message-ID: <20040818031534.GA5070@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang In case you're not aware of this site (I wasn't), http://www.lscheffer.com/malbolge.html has a lot of discussion about the (happy?) accidents of Malbolge that make it possible to write some programs in it. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 24 21:48:35 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BzgHZ-0001Bi-DK; Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:44:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:44:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu ([152.1.1.172]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BzgHI-0001BP-70 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:44:17 +0300 Received: from webmail.ncsu.edu (uni12wi.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.144]) by uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040817.03) with ESMTP id i7OIi9er013168 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:44:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 152.1.149.157 (SquirrelMail authenticated user bcthomp2); by webmail.ncsu.edu with HTTP; Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [lang] 2D function analogs... From: bcthomp2@ncsu.edu To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.6.1.107272, Antispam-Core: 4.6.1.106808, Antispam-Data: 2004.8.24.111118 X-Spam-Status: No, Hits=7% X-Spam-Level: IIIIIII X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bcthomp2@ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang I have been working on creating 2D functional analogs, essentially porting the classical use of functions (aka procedures and methods) from such languages as C and perl into a 2D environment akin to Befunge. The biggest issue currently is that in a 1D language such as C, a function has a well-defined area - everything between { and }, while a 2D function would require an entire fence of delimiting characters to clearly identify the function, and even then we are ignoring the possibility of functions that might not be simply connected (although because we're dealing with discrete cells, all functions will be a group of at least 1 closed space). I've been working on this problem for a while, and I've come up with several possible solutions to the problem. The first is the simplest. From a calling perspective, the only portion of the function that we would care about is where it begins - so that we can tell the code to jump to that location. To return, a special character is used that tells the IP to procede back to the position it was in prior to the function call. The biggest problem with this scenario is that function names would still be complicated - should the programmer push the string "foo" and then attempt to execute foo from the string? The next possibility is using RTF files, which makes writing the code a little more complex. Using the bold, italic, and strikethrough font modifiers, we could individually define, call, and undefine various functions by saying that a bold name would push the the location of the function onto the stack, an italicized name would call it, and an strike-through would undefine the name. The last possibility that I have seriously been considering (I use the word 'serious' loosely, but even some clowns are dedicated to their work) involves the use of RTF files as well, but delimits function areas based on coloring. Depending on the genus of the topology used, anywhere between 4 to infinite colors may be necessary, but luckily, I can get by with the typical 256 most likely. In order to call a function in this scenario, the color would be called using a RGB triplet. If anyone has any other ideas, please let me know, Im definitely interested in hearing them. Mostly, I want to know what the community feels about branching away from txt files and moving towards RTF/HTML files? Thanks! Brian -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 24 22:06:03 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BzgZi-0001i7-4J; Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:03:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:03:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from carstenkuckuk.de ([217.160.141.105] helo=p15120109.pureserver.info) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BzgZP-0001ho-Be for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:03:01 +0300 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (carstenkuckuk.de [217.160.141.105]) by p15120109.pureserver.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 536D934C03C for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:02:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <412B90DC.50504@kuckuk.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:02:52 +0200 From: Carsten Kuckuk User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.1 (Windows/20040626) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] 2D, RGB, Logo, References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> In-Reply-To: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ck@kuckuk.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang You mentioned 2D and RGB colors. I'm wondering if it's possible to find a meaningfull interpretation of scanned-in images as computer programs, something along the lines of a virtual car running across the image and interpreting the changes in RGB values as commands -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 25 01:43:43 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bzjxj-0006V9-D7; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:40:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:40:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.broadpark.no ([217.13.4.2]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BzjxS-0006Tu-85 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:40:02 +0300 Received: from [10.0.0.2] (228.80-202-102.nextgentel.com [80.202.102.228]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9787157D8 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:40:06 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <412BC4E9.7010204@krokodille.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:44:57 +0200 From: Rune Berge User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.2 (Windows/20040707) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D function analogs... References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> In-Reply-To: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rune@krokodille.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang bcthomp2@ncsu.edu wrote: > I have been working on creating 2D functional analogs, essentially porting > the classical use of functions (aka procedures and methods) from such > languages as C and perl into a 2D environment akin to Befunge. The biggest > issue currently is that in a 1D language such as C, a function has a > well-defined area - everything between { and }, while a 2D function would > require an entire fence of delimiting characters to clearly identify the > function This is not really my cup of tea, but wouldn't it be easier to include delimiting coordinates in the function declaration? It could be as simple as two coordinates to reserve a rectangular area, or more complex geometric forms. > If anyone has any other ideas, please let me know, Im definitely > interested in hearing them. Mostly, I want to know what the community > feels about branching away from txt files and moving towards RTF/HTML > files? I, for one, think that regular text files are pretty boring, and I would really like to see some more languages that uses something else. I have tried to work out something like that myself, but haven't gotten any good ideas. RTF is interesting, though maybe a bit too similar to regular text... Rune -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 25 15:59:16 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BzxJn-0003Hu-RI; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:55:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:55:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from uni04mr.unity.ncsu.edu ([152.1.1.167]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BzxJV-0003Hc-V3 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:55:43 +0300 Received: from webmail.ncsu.edu (uni11wi.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.155]) by uni04mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040817.03) with ESMTP id i7PCtZWm025188 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 152.1.149.154 (SquirrelMail authenticated user bcthomp2); by webmail.ncsu.edu with HTTP; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1042.152.1.149.154.1093438536.squirrel@152.1.149.154> In-Reply-To: <412BC4E9.7010204@krokodille.com> References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <412BC4E9.7010204@krokodille.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [lang] Re: 2D function analogs... From: bcthomp2@ncsu.edu To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.6.1.107272, Antispam-Core: 4.6.1.106808, Antispam-Data: 2004.8.24.111164 X-Spam-Status: No, Hits=7% X-Spam-Level: IIIIIII X-Spam-Score: -4.7 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bcthomp2@ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >> I have been working on creating 2D functional analogs, essentially >> porting >> the classical use of functions (aka procedures and methods) from such >> languages as C and perl into a 2D environment akin to Befunge. The >> biggest >> issue currently is that in a 1D language such as C, a function has a >> well-defined area - everything between { and }, while a 2D function >> would >> require an entire fence of delimiting characters to clearly identify the >> function >> If anyone has any other ideas, please let me know, Im definitely >> interested in hearing them. Mostly, I want to know what the community >> feels about branching away from txt files and moving towards RTF/HTML >> files? First I wanted to respond to Carsten's comments: >You mentioned 2D and RGB colors. I'm wondering if it's possible to find >a meaningfull interpretation of scanned-in images as computer programs, >something along the lines of a virtual car running across the image and >interpreting the changes in RGB values as commands The language Piet did something similar - except that it used blocks of colors, but the CHANGE in value between one cell to the next was the important consideration. And now Rune's: > This is not really my cup of tea, but wouldn't it be easier to include > delimiting coordinates in the function declaration? It could be as > simple as two coordinates to reserve a rectangular area, or more complex > geometric forms. I have thought about using delimiting coordinates - akin to the function owning a rectangular tract of land (I even thought about having each one be an independent toroidal space). I had forgot to include that particular idea. One of the reasons why I didn't like it though is that it did not allow functions to share code. Now, one can come up with a hundred and two reasons why functions shouldn't share code, but I think the important thing is that the language is only as esoteric as the creator, and most people think I'm pretty out there... > I, for one, think that regular text files are pretty boring, and I would > really like to see some more languages that uses something else. I have > tried to work out something like that myself, but haven't gotten any > good ideas. RTF is interesting, though maybe a bit too similar to > regular text... I think the ability to color text and add font modifiers such as bold, italics, etc. would give a lot of opportunity to branch away from regular text programming. Granted, its not as similar as Piet, or even one language (whose name I cannot recall) which utilized sound. Granted, something less like Piet might have strong possibilities as well - perhaps using some sort of image processing on the image (think about JPEG encoding, where every 8X8 pixel block in the image could store a certain number of commands in the frequency domain...), there are certainly strong possibilities for non-text esolangs, but Im very keen on exploring the options using my text-based esolang. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 25 16:28:07 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BzxmP-0004Cg-MP; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:25:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:25:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.broadpark.no ([217.13.4.2]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bzxm8-0004BU-PM for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:25:17 +0300 Received: from [10.0.0.2] (228.80-202-102.nextgentel.com [80.202.102.228]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E84153C33 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:25:22 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <412C9468.5080702@krokodille.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:30:16 +0200 From: Rune Berge User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.2 (Windows/20040707) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D function analogs... References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <412BC4E9.7010204@krokodille.com> <1042.152.1.149.154.1093438536.squirrel@152.1.149.154> In-Reply-To: <1042.152.1.149.154.1093438536.squirrel@152.1.149.154> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rune@krokodille.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang bcthomp2@ncsu.edu wrote: > I have thought about using delimiting coordinates - akin to the function > owning a rectangular tract of land (I even thought about having each one > be an independent toroidal space). I had forgot to include that particular > idea. One of the reasons why I didn't like it though is that it did not > allow functions to share code. Well, you could allow functions to have overlapping areas... Rune -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 25 18:29:20 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BzzfF-0007RK-7t; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:26:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:26:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from uni06mr.unity.ncsu.edu ([152.1.1.169]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bzzex-0007R1-G1 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:26:00 +0300 Received: from webmail.ncsu.edu (uni09wi.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.150]) by uni06mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040817.03) with ESMTP id i7PFPrw8022039 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 152.1.149.163 (SquirrelMail authenticated user bcthomp2); by webmail.ncsu.edu with HTTP; Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2318.152.1.149.163.1093447554.squirrel@152.1.149.163> In-Reply-To: <412C9468.5080702@krokodille.com> References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <412BC4E9.7010204@krokodille.com> <1042.152.1.149.154.1093438536.squirrel@152.1.149.154> <412C9468.5080702@krokodille.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [lang] Re: 2D function analogs... From: bcthomp2@ncsu.edu To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.6.1.107272, Antispam-Core: 4.6.1.106808, Antispam-Data: 2004.8.24.111164 X-Spam-Status: No, Hits=7% X-Spam-Level: IIIIIII X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bcthomp2@ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >> I have thought about using delimiting coordinates - akin to the function >> owning a rectangular tract of land (I even thought about having each one >> be an independent toroidal space). I had forgot to include that >> particular >> idea. One of the reasons why I didn't like it though is that it did not >> allow functions to share code. > > Well, you could allow functions to have overlapping areas... That's another possibility. If that is indeed the case then, what would be the point of assigning functions a portion of 2D space (in this case, say a rectangle?) One 2D language that actually does a good job of this is Spiral (recent addition to the esolang webring), which does not allow the IP pointer to enter whitespace, which motivates the idea that although functions might not necessarily share code, they can overlap (the Spiral website has an example of a wire-crossing), and the functions have clearly defined paths. All-in-all, I would rather stick with functions that were defined solely by their initial points, which is essentially what compiled C-code does, except only in 1 dimension, and typically it doesn't look like absolutely diabolical line-noise. To break away from that argument and return to the idea of non-traditional-text-based programming, another semi-interesting possibility that is to have a 2D version of emoticon (another recent addition to the esolang webring) - a sort of ascii-art language where 2D pictures of size {x,y} processed a certain function. /-\//~\\ would be a {3,3} instruction followed by a {5,3} instruction |o| V V \-/ u An important part of constructing such a language (and I've had similar issues thinking about implementing 2D variable names in my language as well) is 1) How do you insure that instructions line up? You either have to regulate rows, columns, have fixed-width (or height) instructions, or some other method. 2)How to delimit names so that a function FooBar is not read as function Foo followed by function bar, assuming that Foo and Bar exist (or causing an error if Foo exists but not Bar). (1) has possible solutions that I think would be workable in a language, (2) requires some sort of outside intervention - either through the use of delimiters (requiring all "pictures" to be rectangles and the bottom-right hand corner ending with a special character, say *) or by specially marking the text, in the case that I was considering, you would alternate colors, and thanks to the 7-color theorem (you can color a torus using 7 unique colors), every 2D funge surface would be able to be colored using just the eight basic colors of the traditional color monitor, and additional colors - say your monitor supported 8-bit or 24-bit graphics - could be employed for clarity. Again, there are several possibilities. Brian -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 27 10:52:56 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C0bTA-000ELf-RY; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:48:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:48:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from turunen.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.221]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C0bSt-000EKk-9w for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:48:04 +0300 Received: from nummi.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.227] helo=nummi ident=mail) by turunen.ling.helsinki.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C0bSO-0002mX-00 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:47:32 +0300 Received: from pkalliok by nummi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C0bSO-0000mj-00 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:47:32 +0300 Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:47:32 +0300 From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D function analogs... Message-ID: <20040827074732.GB2884@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Panu A Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 02:44:09PM -0400, bcthomp2@ncsu.edu wrote: > I have been working on creating 2D functional analogs, essentially porting > the classical use of functions (aka procedures and methods) from such > languages as C and perl into a 2D environment akin to Befunge. The biggest In my view, there are three "features" of functions you might want to move into a 2D environment: 1. returning where the execution began 2. passing parameters 3. lexical closures The "area" of function is _not_ IMO very significant, because the function "knows" anyway where its borders lie. Returning is probably well handled by a gosub/return like construct, but a more elegant solution IMO would be to use 2D dispatch. It would probably require Befunge-like elements which guide the IP to a specific direction but when approached from that direction, guide the IP to the direction it last came from. Combining many elements like these would allow to build paths to a routine which could be walked in the reverse direction after the routine has completed. Parameter passing is the thing Befunge always made "too easy" by using a stack. You can go with that, or you could use "guns" that let the IP "shoot" data to the routine before going there. I haven't worked out the details. Lexical closures are the most difficult one. Maybe you are not interested in them, but they are nevertheless the feature that gives the function _life_: the ability to, not just sit there ready to be called, but to be passed around, built and destroyed... Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835, +3589 85619369 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 27 16:06:38 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C0gO4-000N8J-3k; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:03:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:03:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from uni06mr.unity.ncsu.edu ([152.1.1.169]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C0gNl-000N81-CW for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:03:07 +0300 Received: from webmail.ncsu.edu (uni11wi.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.155]) by uni06mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040817.03) with ESMTP id i7RD30U8002368 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 152.1.149.157 (SquirrelMail authenticated user bcthomp2); by webmail.ncsu.edu with HTTP; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3050.152.1.149.157.1093611780.squirrel@152.1.149.157> In-Reply-To: <20040827074732.GB2884@ling.helsinki.fi> References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <20040827074732.GB2884@ling.helsinki.fi> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [lang] Re: 2D function analogs... From: bcthomp2@ncsu.edu To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.6.1.107272, Antispam-Core: 4.6.1.106808, Antispam-Data: 2004.8.26.111397 X-Spam-Status: No, Hits=7% X-Spam-Level: IIIIIII X-Spam-Score: -4.7 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bcthomp2@ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >> I have been working on creating 2D functional analogs, essentially >> porting >> the classical use of functions (aka procedures and methods) from such >> languages as C and perl into a 2D environment akin to Befunge. The >> biggest > > In my view, there are three "features" of functions you might want to > move into a 2D environment: > > 1. returning where the execution began > 2. passing parameters > 3. lexical closures > > The "area" of function is _not_ IMO very significant, because the > function "knows" anyway where its borders lie. Im not sure that this is really the case. I think that, generally speaking, a function only knows where it begins, and its the code itself that determines where the rest of the function exists. Although, implicitly, this could mean that the function "knows" where it is, it's like saying that I "know" how to convert energy into ATP inside my cells - my body DOES do that, but it doesn't mean that I as a whole am aware of how to go about doing that. > Returning is probably well handled by a gosub/return like construct, but > a more elegant solution IMO would be to use 2D dispatch. It would > probably require Befunge-like elements which guide the IP to a specific > direction but when approached from that direction, guide the IP to the > direction it last came from. Combining many elements like these would > allow to build paths to a routine which could be walked in the reverse > direction after the routine has completed. Im not entirely sure what you mean by this, but I think I understand. Basically, you say "go do FOO" and you then design the program in such a way as that it actually goes and searches for the function FOO in the map. It's something that I thought about - actually even designing a grid structure so that the IP could always find a path to the function index. It has VERY interesting possibilities... > Parameter passing is the thing Befunge always made "too easy" by using a > stack. You can go with that, or you could use "guns" that let the IP > "shoot" data to the routine before going there. I haven't worked out > the details. Guns? I do not condone violence. Okay, Im just kidding, but seriously... I dont understand? > Lexical closures are the most difficult one. Maybe you are not > interested in them, but they are nevertheless the feature that gives the > function _life_: the ability to, not just sit there ready to be called, > but to be passed around, built and destroyed... Interested? yes, understanding? No. Thanks for your comments Panu. I can always depend on you to bring insight into the topics! You rock! Brian -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 30 02:27:06 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C1Yyv-000Jx6-RV; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:21:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:20:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.21]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C1Yyd-000Jwp-7D for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:20:49 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B6436402B for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 01:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4132688B.9020801@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 01:36:43 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D, RGB, Logo, References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <412B90DC.50504@kuckuk.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Carsten Kuckuk wrote: > You mentioned 2D and RGB colors. I'm wondering if it's possible to > find a meaningfull interpretation of scanned-in images as computer > programs, something along the lines of a virtual car running across > the image and interpreting the changes in RGB values as commands It is possible, in principle, to define a language using pictures as source code. However, it should be remember that in any language, if random code is entered (even with the guarantee of linguistic validity), it is highly unlikely to do anything interesting. Furthermore, programs designed to really do something might at best look like attractive abstract art, with a well-thought-out language, but will probably not resemble any recognizable object, other than maybe simple geometric figures. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 30 02:33:42 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C1Z6N-000K7v-BT; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:28:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:28:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C1Z66-000K7h-CL for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:28:31 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFCBB2FC34A for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 01:28:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <41326A5A.8070801@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 01:44:26 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D function analogs... References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <412BC4E9.7010204@krokodille.com> <1042.152.1.149.154.1093438536.squirrel@152.1.149.154> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang bcthomp2@ncsu.edu wrote: >One of the reasons why I didn't like it though is that it did not >allow functions to share code. Now, one can come up with a hundred and >two >reasons why functions shouldn't share code, but I think the important >thing is that the language is only as esoteric as the creator, and most >people think I'm pretty out there... Actually, it happens a lot in programs that several functions are necessary doing similar but different things. Classically there are two ways to solve this, the first being to copy+paste code into multiple functions, and the second being to write a single function having a flag argument that differentiates between the various functions when necessary. Being able to partially share code among functions would be an innovative and possibly quite useful solution to the problem. >perhaps >using some sort of image processing on the image (think about JPEG >encoding, where every 8X8 pixel block in the image could store a certain >number of commands in the frequency domain...) Storing my programs with lossy compression? No thanks. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 30 02:49:06 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C1ZLQ-000KZw-CZ; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:44:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:44:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C1ZL9-000KZi-Hx for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:44:04 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B4002FC33B for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 01:44:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <41326DFE.50408@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 01:59:58 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D function analogs... References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <20040827074732.GB2884@ling.helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: >Returning is probably well handled by a gosub/return like construct, >but a more elegant solution IMO would be to use 2D dispatch. It would >probably require Befunge-like elements which guide the IP to a specific >direction but when approached from that direction, guide the IP to the >direction it last came from. Combining many elements like these would >allow to build paths to a routine which could be walked in the reverse >direction after the routine has completed. I think a good solution would be self-modifying flow control - instructions that move the IP in one of the four possible directions coded into them, and at the same time, change their coding to point toward the direction that the current IP came from. Sort of like this: opposite = -ip_direction; ip_direction = code[ip].direction; code[ip].direction = opposite; ip += ip_direction; This would allow perfect code backtracking, even for paths that can be entered from multiple places. Some work would still be needed at the ends of each path, but I think this can be dealt with neatly using an instruction that skips over the next cell and continues execution with the one after it. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 30 18:54:39 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C1oOw-0006eF-Fd; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:48:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:48:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mxout6.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.33.20]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C1oOd-0006dl-BN for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:48:41 +0300 Received: from hymn11.u.washington.edu (hymn11.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.150]) by mxout6.cac.washington.edu (8.13.1+UW04.08/8.13.1+UW04.08) with ESMTP id i7UFmaKe020305 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:48:37 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hymn11.u.washington.edu (8.13.1+UW04.08/8.13.1+UW04.08) with ESMTP id i7UFmaaG030361 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:48:36 -0700 Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:48:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Thompson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D function analogs... In-Reply-To: <41326A5A.8070801@dds.nl> Message-ID: Received: from [140.142.15.153] by hymn11.u.washington.edu via HTTP; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:48:36 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: brianct@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > >One of the reasons why I didn't like it though is that it did not > >allow functions to share code. Now, one can come up with a hundred and > >two > >reasons why functions shouldn't share code, but I think the important > >thing is that the language is only as esoteric as the creator, and most > >people think I'm pretty out there... > > Actually, it happens a lot in programs that several functions are > necessary doing similar but different things. Classically there are two > ways to solve this, the first being to copy+paste code into multiple > functions, and the second being to write a single function having a flag > argument that differentiates between the various functions when > necessary. Being able to partially share code among functions would be > an innovative and possibly quite useful solution to the problem. That's one of the reasons why I have been so reluctant to eliminate the idea. I like the possibility of having functions, even for just a small fraction of time (for instance if they have different initialization phases but the end operations are identical, or if they just want to cross paths and share one instruction.. whatever you like!) > >perhaps > >using some sort of image processing on the image (think about JPEG > >encoding, where every 8X8 pixel block in the image could store a certain > >number of commands in the frequency domain...) > > Storing my programs with lossy compression? No thanks. It wouldn't necessarily be lossy compression (at least not lossy as far as your code is concerned). Using data in the frequency domain doesn't suffer from lossy compression as long as it's values are deliberate - it is the data in the image domain that would end up becoming lossy. I did a small program once using this fact that encoded values into the lower-order bits of an image. It worked fine on Linux, but I don't have the code anymore... hmm, maybe I should re-write it and try something different (viterbi coding perhaps?). -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 30 19:38:22 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C1p69-0007mr-Lu; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:33:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:33:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C1p5s-0007mc-GA for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:33:21 +0300 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7UGXJ30012287 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:33:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.inf.tu-dresden.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11847-02 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:33:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kallisto.frz.inf.tu-dresden.de (kallisto.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.10]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i7UGXFV0012270 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:33:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (nullmailer pid 9873 invoked by uid 2101); Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:33:15 -0000 Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:33:15 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D, RGB, Logo, Message-ID: <20040830163315.GA9865@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <412B90DC.50504@kuckuk.com> <4132688B.9020801@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4132688B.9020801@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at inf.tu-dresden.de X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Milo wrote: > It is possible, in principle, to define a language using pictures as > source code. That has been done, http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html This will not work very well with arbitrary images though. > Furthermore, programs > designed to really do something might at best look like attractive > abstract art, with a well-thought-out language, but will probably not > resemble any recognizable object, other than maybe simple geometric figures. That seems to be true for Piet at least. Bertram latest esoteric achievment: Another small Unlambda 2 quine, http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/quine/unlambda/quine5a.unl -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Sep 01 09:30:04 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2Oa1-000EiN-L2; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:26:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:26:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from turunen.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.221]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2OZi-000EhK-29 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:26:32 +0300 Received: from nummi.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.227] helo=nummi ident=mail) by turunen.ling.helsinki.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C2OZD-0003Ox-00 for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:25:59 +0300 Received: from pkalliok by nummi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C2OZD-0002vI-00 for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:25:59 +0300 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:25:59 +0300 From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D, RGB, Logo, Message-ID: <20040901062542.GA11196@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <412B90DC.50504@kuckuk.com> <4132688B.9020801@dds.nl> <20040830163315.GA9865@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040830163315.GA9865@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Panu A Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Mon, Aug 30, 2004 at 06:33:15PM +0200, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > It is possible, in principle, to define a language using pictures as > > source code. > That has been done, > http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html > This will not work very well with arbitrary images though. I think a "true" picture language should be analog, not digital, in nature. If we keep with sharp distinction between language elements, we are effectively just giving new tags to tokens, in this case, colours. I would rather like every pixel to have some kind of local, nonlinear effect on its surroundings. R, G and B could be mapped to some "behavioural factors" of the pixel, such as aggressive--defensive, good--evil, and narrow-mindedness. The result of one step of evaluation would be the change in these attributes depending on the interaction of pixels near each other. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835, +3589 85619369 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Sep 01 09:45:34 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2Opp-000FBf-5g; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:43:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:42:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from turunen.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.221]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2OpY-000FAY-3p for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:42:52 +0300 Received: from nummi.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.227] helo=nummi ident=mail) by turunen.ling.helsinki.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C2Op3-00047h-00 for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:42:21 +0300 Received: from pkalliok by nummi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C2Op4-0002w7-00 for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:42:22 +0300 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:42:21 +0300 From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D function analogs... Message-ID: <20040901064220.GB11196@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <412BC4E9.7010204@krokodille.com> <1042.152.1.149.154.1093438536.squirrel@152.1.149.154> <41326A5A.8070801@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41326A5A.8070801@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Panu A Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Mon, Aug 30, 2004 at 01:44:26AM +0200, Milo wrote: > Actually, it happens a lot in programs that several functions are > necessary doing similar but different things. Classically there are two > ways to solve this, the first being to copy+paste code into multiple > functions, and the second being to write a single function having a flag > argument that differentiates between the various functions when > necessary. Being able to partially share code among functions would be > an innovative and possibly quite useful solution to the problem. A third solution is to parametrise the function behavior by giving functions as arguments for the changing sections, ie. use higher order functions. The ability to do this fluently and cleanly is one of the big advantages of FP against OOP... enter flamewar... > Storing my programs with lossy compression? No thanks. For analog programs that would be no problem... wink, wink... Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835, +3589 85619369 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Sep 01 12:10:19 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2R5Q-000KDi-4k; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:07:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:07:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from turunen.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.221]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2R58-000KC5-0d for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:07:07 +0300 Received: from nummi.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.227] helo=nummi ident=mail) by turunen.ling.helsinki.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C2R4c-00014A-00; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:06:34 +0300 Received: from pkalliok by nummi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C2R4c-0002z9-00; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:06:34 +0300 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:06:34 +0300 From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: Milo Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D function analogs... Message-ID: <20040901090631.GC11196@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Milo , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <20040827074732.GB2884@ling.helsinki.fi> <41326DFE.50408@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41326DFE.50408@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Panu A Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Mon, Aug 30, 2004 at 01:59:58AM +0200, Milo wrote: > opposite = -ip_direction; > ip_direction = code[ip].direction; > code[ip].direction = opposite; > ip += ip_direction; Yes, this is a good idea. It's even simpler than my proposal (which had remnants of ideas of how to support multi-thread code). > This would allow perfect code backtracking, even for paths that can be > entered from multiple places. Some work would still be needed at the > ends of each path, but I think this can be dealt with neatly using an > instruction that skips over the next cell and continues execution with > the one after it. This one is handled even more nicely with another self-modifying instruction, the flip-flop mirror. It's the / or \ instruction that changes orientation every time an IP passes. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835, +3589 85619369 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Sep 01 16:00:54 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2UgM-0004Qp-7M; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:57:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:57:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.21]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2Ug4-0004QZ-9s for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:57:29 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9230A364079 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:57:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4135CAFA.5020104@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:13:30 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D, RGB, Logo, References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <412B90DC.50504@kuckuk.com> <4132688B.9020801@dds.nl> <20040830163315.GA9865@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> <20040901062542.GA11196@ling.helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: >I think a "true" picture language should be analog, not digital, in >nature. If we keep with sharp distinction between language elements, we >are effectively just giving new tags to tokens, in this case, colours. > >I would rather like every pixel to have some kind of local, nonlinear >effect on its surroundings. R, G and B could be mapped to some >"behavioural factors" of the pixel, such as aggressive--defensive, >good--evil, and narrow-mindedness. The result of one step of evaluation >would be the change in these attributes depending on the interaction of >pixels near each other. > I've thought about the idea of analog and continuous languages myself (continuous is if the "instruction pointer", instead of ranging along N or NxN, ranges along R or RxR). One thing to take note of with the departure from integers is that any calculation involving real numbers on a computer is inherently inaccurate, meaning that any result calculated by a program in such a language, will be a mere approximation of what it's supposed to output. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Sep 01 16:23:51 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2V3G-0005Tj-J3; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:21:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:21:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2V2y-0005TS-Sb for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:21:09 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421F42FC472 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:21:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4135D085.8080105@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:37:09 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D function analogs... References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <20040827074732.GB2884@ling.helsinki.fi> <41326DFE.50408@dds.nl> <20040901090631.GC11196@ling.helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: >On Mon, Aug 30, 2004 at 01:59:58AM +0200, Milo wrote: > > >>opposite = -ip_direction; >>ip_direction = code[ip].direction; >>code[ip].direction = opposite; >>ip += ip_direction; > >Yes, this is a good idea. It's even simpler than my proposal (which >had remnants of ideas of how to support multi-thread code). > > > >>This would allow perfect code backtracking, even for paths that can be >>entered from multiple places. Some work would still be needed at the >>ends of each path, but I think this can be dealt with neatly using an >>instruction that skips over the next cell and continues execution with >>the one after it. > >This one is handled even more nicely with another self-modifying >instruction, the flip-flop mirror. It's the / or \ instruction that >changes orientation every time an IP passes. Great idea. I guess that gives us six new instructions for handling functions. Let's see how it would work: <>^v = permanent flow control {}~, = backtracking flow control (got better ideas for up and down?) /\ = flip-flops CAPITAL LETTERS = replace with actual code .TWO\TWO . }}}}}, . , . , FUNCv . }}}}}}}}}}/ T .ONE/ONE ^NIO< After calling FUNCTION from ONE, the code would become: .TWO\TWO . }}}}}, . , . , FUNCv . ,{{{{{{{{{\ T .ONE\ONE ^NIO< After calling FUNCTION from TWO, the code would become: .TWO/TWO . ~{{{{{ . ~ . ~ FUNCv . }}}}}~{{{{\ T .ONE/ONE ^NIO< In both cases, upon finishing FUNCTION the code will return to the place it was called and restore all self-modifying instructions to their original form. Bingo! One problem, however. This method would not allow a function to be called recursively while another instance is still "active". -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Sep 01 16:24:42 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2V4H-0005X4-4F; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:22:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:22:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from carstenkuckuk.de ([217.160.141.105] helo=p15120109.pureserver.info) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2V3z-0005Wl-J7 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:22:12 +0300 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (carstenkuckuk.de [217.160.141.105]) by p15120109.pureserver.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83DF434C03B for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:22:10 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4135CCFD.1030007@kuckuk.com> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:22:05 +0200 From: Carsten Kuckuk User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.1 (Windows/20040626) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D, RGB, Logo, References: <2270.152.1.149.157.1093373049.squirrel@152.1.149.157> <412B90DC.50504@kuckuk.com> <4132688B.9020801@dds.nl> <20040830163315.GA9865@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> <20040901062542.GA11196@ling.helsinki.fi> <4135CAFA.5020104@dds.nl> In-Reply-To: <4135CAFA.5020104@dds.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ck@kuckuk.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang All analog makes me think of neural networks. What about a Turing-Machine / Neural Network bastard? Internal state = feedback in the network (with delay line to simulate memory) Input: We have an "eye" that samples a circular region of the picture weighted with a Gaussian. The integrated R G B values are used as input to the NN (Alternative: HSB, Lab, or any other system) Output : One of the NN outputs is interpreted as a velocity-X value, and another as a velocity-Y value. (Alternative: relative Mouse coordinates: Speed and Direction). Another could mean "Change the color of the area we're on top of to something else". If we used three "eyes", the HSB coordinates, and relative Mouse coordinates, use one of the NN outputs to drive a loudspeaker, and use a scanned-in image of a vinyl record as the input, we could easily implement a record player. Carsten Milo wrote: > Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > >> I think a "true" picture language should be analog, not digital, in >> nature. If we keep with sharp distinction between language elements, we >> are effectively just giving new tags to tokens, in this case, colours. >> >> I would rather like every pixel to have some kind of local, nonlinear >> effect on its surroundings. R, G and B could be mapped to some >> "behavioural factors" of the pixel, such as aggressive--defensive, >> good--evil, and narrow-mindedness. The result of one step of evaluation >> would be the change in these attributes depending on the interaction of >> pixels near each other. >> > I've thought about the idea of analog and continuous languages myself > (continuous is if the "instruction pointer", instead of ranging along N > or NxN, ranges along R or RxR). One thing to take note of with the > departure from integers is that any calculation involving real numbers > on a computer is inherently inaccurate, meaning that any result > calculated by a program in such a language, will be a mere approximation > of what it's supposed to output. > > -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Sep 01 17:39:38 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2WEF-0009JK-CD; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:36:51 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:36:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mxout5.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.135]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2WDx-0009J3-5e for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:36:34 +0300 Received: from hymn08.u.washington.edu (hymn08.u.washington.edu [140.142.16.149]) by mxout5.cac.washington.edu (8.13.1+UW04.08/8.13.1+UW04.08) with ESMTP id i81EaUsW019882 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:36:30 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hymn08.u.washington.edu (8.13.1+UW04.08/8.13.1+UW04.08) with ESMTP id i81EaUU3002025 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:36:30 -0700 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:36:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Thompson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D function analogs... In-Reply-To: <4135D085.8080105@dds.nl> Message-ID: Received: from [140.142.15.150] by hymn08.u.washington.edu via HTTP; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 07:36:30 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: brianct@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Milo wrote: > Panu wrote: > > >Milo wrote: > > > >>opposite = -ip_direction; > >>ip_direction = code[ip].direction; > >>code[ip].direction = opposite; > >>ip += ip_direction; > > > >Yes, this is a good idea. It's even simpler than my proposal (which > >had remnants of ideas of how to support multi-thread code). > > > >>This would allow perfect code backtracking, even for paths that can be > >>entered from multiple places. Some work would still be needed at the > >>ends of each path, but I think this can be dealt with neatly using an > >>instruction that skips over the next cell and continues execution with > >>the one after it. > > > >This one is handled even more nicely with another self-modifying > >instruction, the flip-flop mirror. It's the / or \ instruction that > >changes orientation every time an IP passes. > > I guess that gives us six new instructions for handling functions. > Let's see how it would work: > > <>^v = permanent flow control > {}~, = backtracking flow control (got better ideas for up and down?) > /\ = flip-flops > CAPITAL LETTERS = replace with actual code > > .TWO\TWO > . }}}}}, > . , > . , FUNCv > . }}}}}}}}}}/ T > .ONE/ONE ^NIO< > > After calling FUNCTION from ONE, the code would become: > > .TWO\TWO > . }}}}}, > . , > . , FUNCv > . ,{{{{{{{{{\ T > .ONE\ONE ^NIO< > > After calling FUNCTION from TWO, the code would become: > > .TWO/TWO > . ~{{{{{ > . ~ > . ~ FUNCv > . }}}}}~{{{{\ T > .ONE/ONE ^NIO< > > In both cases, upon finishing FUNCTION the code will return to the place > it was called and restore all self-modifying instructions to their > original form. Bingo! Now I understand more about what it meant to tell the IP how to go find the function. Originally, when I was beginning to build my language, I had the idea of having a function 'call' block and a function 'return' block. The call block would simply be some sort of command module that pushed the return address and the the name of the function that you wanted to go to. Then, you put the IP on a main program bus which acts like a road network with gas stations set at regular intervals where the IP asks directions. So, if you wanted to go to "Function" the first station would say "well, you wanna take a left and go forward about a hundred steps and ask the guy there" Then, the next station would say "Oh, yeah... you just gotta go another 50 steps and take a right, head down the path and it'll be there on your left" By pushing those directions via a lambda function, you can have IPs going all over the place: CALL BLOCK >01"Function1"v >FUNCTION1 > > >PROGRAM BUS> >FUNCTION2 ^RETURN ADDRESS >FUNCTION3 No 'backtracking' is required, and more importantly, if you want the return address to be somewhere else in the program, there's nothing stopping you from doing so. One problem with this situation is that malicious code could do a lot of screw up the way the program finds functions. The other is that it's incredibly inefficient, because you need to maintain a network of stations and the bus itself, and also because every time you call a function, you might spend anywhere from 50~500 instructions just trying to find it (which becomes even larger if you consider disallowing the use of the jump command (which Im keen on doing). -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Sep 02 08:43:41 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2kKu-0008hT-O6; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:40:40 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:40:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com ([205.158.62.67]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C2eiU-0000FD-St for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 02 Sep 2004 02:40:40 +0300 Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 59D9A1800695 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:39:48 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.31) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 1 Sep 2004 23:39:48 -0000 Received: by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 274D1E5BC7; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:39:48 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [64.151.16.188] by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com with http for monoverde@lycos.com; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:39:48 -0800 From: "Kevin Green" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:39:48 -0800 Subject: [lang] Re: 2D, RGB, Logo, X-Originating-Ip: 64.151.16.188 X-Originating-Server: ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040901233948.274D1E5BC7@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: monoverde@lycos.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang A thought, IF you want a meaningful picture from a program the tokens for= the language could be based on the sum of the RGB values. Say you wanted= to have a picture encoded BF program, you might use the sum mod 9 where= 0-7 map to the 8 instructions and the other to handle comment characters= . ----- Original Message ----- > Milo wrote: >=20 > > Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > >=20 > >> I think a "true" picture language should be analog, not digital, in > >> nature. If we keep with sharp distinction between language elements= , we > >> are effectively just giving new tags to tokens, in this case, colour= s. > >> > >> I would rather like every pixel to have some kind of local, nonlinea= r > >> effect on its surroundings. R, G and B could be mapped to some > >> "behavioural factors" of the pixel, such as aggressive--defensive, > >> good--evil, and narrow-mindedness. The result of one step of evalua= tion > >> would be the change in these attributes depending on the interaction= of > >> pixels near each other. > >> --=20 _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.= asp?SRC=3Dlycos10 -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Sep 05 15:17:27 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C3vu5-0003rx-3a; Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:13:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:13:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C3vtn-0003rj-GP for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:13:36 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99DBA2FC1E8 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 14:13:34 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <413B0695.5090501@dds.nl> Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:29:09 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D, RGB, Logo, References: <20040901233948.274D1E5BC7@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Kevin Green wrote: >A thought, IF you want a meaningful picture from a program the tokens for the language could be based on the sum of the RGB values. Say you wanted to have a picture encoded BF program, you might use the sum mod 9 where 0-7 map to the 8 instructions and the other to handle comment characters. > We note, in this suggestion, that the program code is not actually in the picture, but in subtle variations in the underlying RGB values. You could take any picture you want and modify it to encode any BF program, in such a way that the color difference is hardly noticable by the human eye. While secret codes are an interesting topic, most of us do not have the CIA on our heels. Far more interesting from an esoteric programming perspective is a language that actually depends on geometrical shapes, a la Wierd. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Sep 06 18:41:37 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C4LYu-000L4T-2o; Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:37:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:37:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from turunen.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.221]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C4LYc-000L3h-Vw for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:37:27 +0300 Received: from nummi.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.227] helo=nummi ident=mail) by turunen.ling.helsinki.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C4LY7-0002CY-00; Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:36:55 +0300 Received: from pkalliok by nummi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C4LY5-0005de-00; Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:36:53 +0300 Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 18:36:53 +0300 From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: Milo Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D, RGB, Logo, Message-ID: <20040906153652.GB20775@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Milo , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040901233948.274D1E5BC7@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> <413B0695.5090501@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <413B0695.5090501@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Panu A Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 02:29:09PM +0200, Milo wrote: > While secret codes are an interesting topic, most of us do not have the > CIA on our heels. Far more interesting from an esoteric programming > perspective is a language that actually depends on geometrical shapes, a > la Wierd. Although there _is_ some charm in data that has multiple interpretations. "Meaning is in the eye of the beholder". -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835, +3589 85619369 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Sep 06 18:47:24 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C4Lg1-000LIo-5E; Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:45:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:44:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from turunen.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.221]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C4Lfg-000LHc-Fb for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:44:47 +0300 Received: from nummi.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.227] helo=nummi ident=mail) by turunen.ling.helsinki.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C4LfC-0002Xo-00 for ; Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:44:14 +0300 Received: from pkalliok by nummi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C4LfC-0005eJ-00 for ; Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:44:14 +0300 Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 18:44:14 +0300 From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] essie4 entry (1): Lisp2k Message-ID: <20040906154413.GA21700@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="SUOF0GtieIMvvwua" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Panu A Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang --SUOF0GtieIMvvwua Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline This is my participation in essie4. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835, +3589 85619369 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ --SUOF0GtieIMvvwua Content-Type: application/octet-stream Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Lisp2k-1.0.tar.gz" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 H4sIANOEPEEAA+xbXW8jx5X1K/tXVJQHkkBLHNljG9Dsy9iRM8LaM4ZnDNsIAqHYLJIdNbs5 Xd2i6CT/fB/2nHurqpsaTRYBkiwWG/lD/KiuunU/zj33Vunb0u8/vTu/vHi2+OSf9fMMP19+ +Yy/P7389Ivx7/jzyeWzy8svL/H5F88/eXb5/PKzLz4xn//TJBr99L6zrTGf7O9sVZXN3cfG /U/fx43E3/9Hfr4d7P/tzdfXr99e/+PXoD6+eP78Y/a/vPz8s5H9P4P9P798/vkn5l+ixP/n 9j/cdmVXudlPZb1qDr6sKlOVhau9m6/qKstGn5+fG1ubN4XdVabc7Su3c3Vnu7KpTbM23daZ ytab3m6cUa/Kspd9t21af3WVmXMzK+bm02fPnpvvbd2b/1R1Nv6uzLJ329Ib36y7g22dwWt7 b8vKLitn1q1znL/Y2hYzr5vWrErfteWy59J5tmtW5bosVBBbr0zvnZktj8Y9uAJj6o3Itm+b TWt3c2O9qRp8iN/4PFs3VdUcOKpo6lXJWbA8pNi57irLfmuu7117NIemvcOIfelWhiK4trzH y3Xb7DDNWPokHb4uKdExMxR7Z3bwNcyxc+ZQdlt9LCj7BVd6BzGbujqavWt3ZccJsOsau+6a k9GiodWKQje1m3pT253DKliOW7WqdeNdIUo5bF1ttvae41VbmJkDo8wXsMCra/Pyx3ev3vzw 1nz98vXrN+/MV9fm1fW3vzM/XL/9/s3rtzdffXttvnnzg3n5+hfzu5sfrr9+Z/Du5nV4/erl D99hmpu35u2bb9799PKHa/Pdze9fvcN0P769xhL/267+758nfsb4Ly8vuofuH7yG4P8XH8v/ nz2/PMn/xP8vnj2//Df+/yt+Iv6r8QcEb93ata4uNA0cbgm/t0VDzJlVwNr6MnyxaorbcjWr Pr3DI5ozbtbm2PQCosgTGIw8kctHu3Kz7czB1h0hbdMALFuAFCBPEM5hPll45tvcvAWIdSNB ACG/EYwEhO4I9FVZO+aOmG9OvgDIN3dEzDviHJB8Oj2kXDadmj+Y6fR85Zb9Bm/+aBbMD+uy cossm3FKQmrMa2H6su5cu28d/k8EPhvmO7swlExzV9G3EBibyuqGIu0xaztktIs5x2Kc5ifn x+mJED6Igllv1hkVt0G2kXEjodeV3VBvpxvLZZi7t1VvO2SqA1P3qt/ts6aH1ltbMA2UNTNS yJnelF18wnks+gtWlOcgyRIyH80aK0gKymQYE3OpVl41THH4CrPWTX2O3Hdf2oobCYBCs30f tofU2Bdd38JuN3FAbuywfSQ25K33PS1uZhVy6ZxWKGt9ktlZdZ1GZepUyN6dxaJut3SrFRKc 75fncQyfuV6vmQ/vXXXMNZtSBVgv60AxztVRonjImWWxhfPB3B7GPDHShTodHxs9gQnhqxXW 0MSvCbZvsQ8a04CR9J5awtQdvtrbAolXJmpApiDXsHHMdWjJAOonZsrVvzEff+fCQTKOWbpN WdfCCtRvZV14Ro0kv/IvxF4FONzOYq+DoqKSMGUGO/fiIe4BvoLVV5HkQYXfwJ/cgyX3Uzcb yFOQDwjhrrI///nP2UMG3vNrZpbZIfvrX/+aFQ2iwu/BsXwI9tHTp6q8Mg/5MZ/9mi/n+SEs a8Fc4DUMp4pkD3IHSXQ5C/pjsJgxBf5byTtQonW24cvt3y+CzWdYflbkq3zm5ni1nuebfLYF DL30SZPeuXzssULswMkQUS54M/lgWRedaZZ/gnMoZbR1JiNgxLLzrlpjm18dRaSDPapy7a7p AZTi/ckKMCcMVTcdjAj/aF+I5U+8cOWKknZd6nytq6yy2uAVo9k8XPl3trP43HYC2Jx5cAgJ QD+XbwrkP8y6AKrs/CIEYSD6YJVwX3Jz+ZZS7G3blUVf2Rbw4cvkMy39VJkrvqCquuOeSMuN 7HTnC3/cLZuKi7w0+tqUAcutIPMVIWtLCg8/7QE3ADc6eWb3e2dbS1swE5TcatkdA6jRZDN+ Tio+l0pBp/eBqlP7NG7GtTTOVakUlB5oPLMSWPnqKjkBQ5WCAZA7Q40ZoqphsCP+JEjF2mTk UIs4L4wjOKAwYMxPmEP4eV915b5SB/IfTJTZChJSWoSpo3txvRzhF/HYVnjNjY3MrMlXEN1h 83TS7LY7NLdGcEc8Q+EAK53GuUbXZusQTBbZ1TDFZvBCDSmmsfd9iaTgNKd3HwIjH85nMz6d 8+l5jqeZzV+K1ndUO/1IITgyEJ/HlESvT9mEGFw4txKwGiq8cX6IkAlYPT/FVXVa0c0wHLbB +L6FlkImsVTfKIuGCvckoUC6rsB8r5oDlmjzTF2bgeJZ4S3LDSJ/HbiLV2DgFsBEzG9NSH7E jnVfa5kG161SHatmfoRYam2s+ppR2hDZkmKuRhO1m34nSUvEYewdUz6xa9IXwb4wHhrARLZe nX5qOmaJglNw87Xtiu2omN6T0ySEYuxecBphNjFWQ82JECkFthGz0+mMWbSeg8BQJyQlYRg2 uAQ9uXMdJxI7r/oAPEPoVMcL0eDXEFGM0Wk+D3EKygUISzZLOtk3Xmp7szA0qpMl4mcDVzEs 92uN9OJkBY0tsQrkpXeJ1oRRdGO1IbIJDwigwu27oK4S9TwpnN8DnG2l1ONC1SVmDBpTwEZE tdJdoU7ojNAaF4AiqDduB7rYkYie7633TvLdYE/zJ3YaBNO7AcAC3BI+BXUIGreY8lY/orNw Gpq9FmM4qKotSfZkVyu3tkAnVX+IRu6UX7/vG4lDWAgLJs8ns5d8x+Fks/UoL+Qj/5Uk2i8F PMvxavq5eyAP8wJlB+7I+sFoOk+n2VZmqACera2YPvhZMmSBFMQ3A1RQR2LHHnkLXkMVHxMX lvhZu4NQ2OsEBkr/AvgM3a9EAh7xVakJQvIcEGVxccKAgYEMKXVcxSFEAEHe/OraJhfTAZZT foA+8NILg/TprUi8ESOE9pNqRJtdY0CLOAolvQEk1JlQYp3GRDsEP2pBIY2F779AfjeNmLgr d0RB0XvWunPseC/cNz9N/cukTsFpiLIBTb8Q/s8elggTEkdYndkoCZoPevFBMRJ/tx65PXNC 6v1toCPi5Hcl4ZKYhREmjBhlEKroZvFGEE/6axAsCyxjiWfxllr5jhhgl1I1bRtJGo85r/bX QoETQtxnmXYMh3wllQ39jmTqUU25SNjgF3ADZGh8L8VHJuD9CC/eMrcMj0Ss0Jwjg9dloYxq IYogsUpg4WXPwgM6thhr+vhJ9bkWAshqs1ZMRwgxBsFsXJv5Dok518X2TXUETO7hNbtglyV1 1KnXrqJNl9ZDosGG2KQHG8JgdkIRGRX4GvzpQLQKEo93eGj6CnTJ1W5dKpoCELGTXeMJRUGN vt/vwcu8somwnZ0YqTtWdFQt6KziOrZXKjoBZkCrVlkgy6OFsYxEkLPFNpWcar+RR2LCnFTk gyWR5/Gm3MF4IUFfZRMyZHWmw7YBiaqnneI+O762JuInyCVcdimuyzqbiFtFlLfVuawjJRfN RK+ExKMdcLPT6QMyBsyeTaZTMozjdAq1wZL1Cnx5JJvb7UGoS8+GRGs1MCE8PWbfMs8VYSu6 v2HJbPLBmiv2IabT9/qrUAlUFixul559iG60uO03ylgeCaa8aTotQevBOfaYaUYlhriATqK6 5mGJsEcdVrkHEXsYheWljaOJ+6Om0WTcqK+0PnXs1fvMbAlUUPMtOa4R4yzx9G/mVEzcDZ1R rQSvOd3RvlXllPXyv7rpFCoQ8QvR0LtTV6RSrQ/I46WXBQ1Tag5kJBCx9+el30YyRijJQ8cI Y0cUZMQps4mQSrALePZ7UosF3yAmehI09UDyAbjEoRnxylmgbvCaAdtdycTARXuvDMrelbV2 qNKc81zstCObdBRA2hSt1EzOzPj2bC+VbX02jxgCoG0IDGmEUDj5PpsQspXTeVkaWgE/KRVl w1ShryQYL1qplR0NtSVwvo6YhQmMzpgLpsWirg3jX3x0Bc21gUnLDMPnaV2df1R3jqfRGVgk jwQa2Yy5aiJ8R8rD9WglXSSuXlk/7O9kDXk+Ma3xMlij+3DOJ7crz4eem4/UzcsejyK/MsOV LNaCKbVeWm9m5pvR/HIkJiVr7N/FqYLQ8vzJ9hNt93OVTPkIssmSCU1QWUPzTLzsTFRCkVzb Ni1bHpPHrZYPiQfLlpF7lBBIJL5gzFmqLo8qCXE9tFxBAlkXSb5NTld2xMlGy/Y0XTQNYmnf s7J7q0u2bl+BoksNoFVHNjmWrlr5oR+gE8xYKaB2b0+I0sB2JDWHhwWP6p6juddIIedxWeXD yq9QSKGyKDdMjhNdijoMgkkDwyZ6Ejc5ndZlJQgm4K8IpQWhxC3LBHc2CBryqgweQZRCDsId qBgwJ+ShJrY9VAddUyfa/Yc/PG7EZZNU9Dg9rTZ//KPWI6VQYhtUcDHUrTaxpkmoaYgB2hIY Ff+pZZBKBQ2hshVHJkjSzx67yuAjQr9RueG79eOuKv2f6Zrp0w6wEb0UUs7sXAmNzAz2HcUA +0atZBO2s634WPq/IbNicyBzUN9aPKZy9abb5o9iI2pahz/hX9kkOpgxs3HHXjvv6kNqeklw Wlwnw+bZZBuaK6xUY7Ot0JaD0lNsnWYIEmlYBC3x0DulJ7e6mNMni1OflNKQzeQ6NAxSBaZs Ma5J9dFKy76sFIFDvhk3DtSRiycc+SR3YlsDFYUX7JpOyfKgHXWWY+rH2goF7wrQabNJrFMC e34qEEKK/SBYgtQn/WqJ9wTjLD+kQyzJRaCJhAjyY+F0lJJNssnJSUDoPA661KICdaNDXcg2 dzqrmbCtnhfzfDU0nJq+PR1lNvk2L/M/adNl4zpNBB6+UD8amabLwzNyZPaUOEl1Nq0Mxtsd R6dN85MFiRuy2rD3qCnxNwG5B3Won7Y8adHdwLNb3ftjCkeixoYIdCfZkdOsbGdz0qDQY9Zj KVmoBd2LDbc1iF/MzPEUiuwsXP2YqDcItJ2Fc8UzQ5IqNb00NWTHQ682ENKpJ9LMGCfK+H6s hftqU4Z5aqbeM08uHJO2hCv4kR0UxEgPGWwgi0IAWYWktsY9C3N2BZkk15Z+gUFCA88LEBeW ASD7JTvBKZ+te+kmk47LyQUCGnq3XZhczkUC2eo6nrcB49mHYidCGmkAxkpaD5OvWJNSKXl4 OMTpCRP4sAEMbYwS0uA3MQOPhwf1DDk7RcCQeEOgjuCbzCAmo84V27p8z4CVUlQzWuqsnRIe FqVCgwaXywW6lk6fpn7hmvQU6h6FJWC0RB1/fq4Oxl6uEDk5pNIafJXqFuwbimRFuGoksz0F AENeGR9J0b+g43w204y2nOcF3qxyN5/P82Q90L6xHsYNtWzyxKN5ADg9SjJDHYGNxeS5zEFH chmfkx4UPCqqjgGmAyk5SQEwT8wBknUkLrUFEdtxNqlO+GRiB+oy2WRXejnmlYlgXlAOK8XL uJTBFLnhASMFhHza0wdrbg5aE2leHLURzaYZDukfT7dpBI1C7RsLw6EYHjJS2jSdB/MQfwY0 WgjQ0EkEfljZVpojdhIhlo0K9tPkXkPgVFo5h1bDqBlwAZXfCAJJnDvfhS5/3XQh8wzIE1sU MxGZH8ghNW8GuA4oret1ozuG2rHZeVfda848uNRHMOOJIiKw84RBAsWrhrKwS3pBA6U6l8on cg/pWgA2wOdCEugiHFKGUmgR80k2WSBb7NkqW0iI0B3z8YPUhVa+K22D+u7RVHJDQD3A8wJK 27O7bv1IySfVPPld342QSx6PXczEIPbMBOoxm6pZJsaOTfMqBzCAsoBkaAFHlAu4IQxawLlK deSwzdCNN02hl15IN0j8YnGr1WXorcnO9UiqX8IZOrkimRor+gzzkRZayqjSrkxcVFMaaR+e ng0+Hssk/e5xnTT/GGjJ46OK9MEtl00ziBUL3p+l2SC8Jgrycz77Of/5EWsICUSnyWfht/6C EJObp5e9zD/NP3ti1fyX1JQYrfsL/nlq1ct8hmnm+n+BhKFxNqDCqJk2Bhi5xBpPKiKqhWP2 uiEoSFHL7n48LU/BeGPu6oZ3NZRTSEsJVeS5e5DKv2HrJ5usnY2XFNLNIjnX0GxbVGCbEhLi vAc5QAyOQGz4iNyavOtxf4oRGVIvJY9NVBIiMItDwEC9p3UaCrPIEqX2ldnmCAdeC5CGIvvg 0idpUgX704CP3SP9ZpOxoOybS5sbVXNflbaNaLxmM1QAMah7dQTqlAUCqUAauQqnW7cI5VsD Ctc5bZvrzV7hqkhQJ/uQJj9rOJUVBRDQ+GVIgLm5me6MtJO3cMQjY4HC0RZL4RHC2vyWtX8l rE3yTekFLU/o08goYSkfJRpwoN/j+TWIs09HyKfUaiBIuVgpuJ8G3FA1U0g5eIoJzI8vq7jQ jggcu9tG7jF2lzlZ7VSv0MDdm+V9SeITNFl60YjjzZjJT449VPg5rE/4ONlsoLG62Z2ztWJ0 pD22OjmFYPueZSAh6kqJipydWenoxqE+nvcuquakbb1IVaP6WWio0afsWm+6nDnrj2cvAiMY TS5tpzS7lLDD+exwWLYYzjNdfV+2jTr/Iiw8anmMaaU0UXzDU6AuXMtSXTALpHMnw0NqXi3R znZZIx8ttOVF3y+Rn0utkaS3zdY40eob6ZOAPFCDWnEj3L6Pn4zK2OGURLJ9Hfs/saCNA2H3 0Al6dBdHDsS98nEyPlge3stIW4lZ4XKel1Iera8RJ64qCCSX5kRj4WaPHGv5RrsYo8nNaO73 PeLpHBaCFgueaayAoRUAh+N9D6P7rl+vT5pUm6ZJF+D0xJAYlBo3ttiW7j5m17rkoTREqBq7 CtcDhzpB04SeQsQcIRY6ZY0hL6ShsSkzZa5gstK2oZVadM+2Aa8MA9jwzZ0jznO0vF42tl1d XFyMAoC5DN55htjvCJpnqWftoMV1X9GFNPJjFdxAdTyMkWsFey11LfGO192k1byFPsINoOBl x3QkMeQp9lbm3I8w0FC3peYJlq7O19j5xq0GH7wZXcgTyAi9bg+F6bE34XO4sukV1ZLylFZx Za36xWUZMrzORo6N7d83Rcwww3M7Xk/7G61cORrS+8Gp0RVvRQciXvNu4Ezgr29hYmFJx7n+ ZQ0flfPwyR5fMh2PD4HGOTYfdISPw/rq47xtHI525Hi1PLmW9WTaVRwZzuvlTP3bcHqHgqrn uXpoTch51xhcR1fGQtO7g2oR4trgqSRPWJ/dqv1uE6cP6Wl0OdBdbC4Uc9ifGJ4P58dZCHVr ancQo53073O51hdu8imOhUO70DAPU2Z8lBcv2tRi1HNoTKx0UHrCg/RQx9ew4nCni8fdoayX v0zC5Fg/wSK4Q1PBN0GPX0yn88A8WO0M88DT3HD04/TgXfcaD0xEjYryM97tJiWSv7Wqu3k2 gFw+3HXiLVJxOFq4JkWRhrZbo3ZFCKWrMgWKrDqz4W6GWg3hCAewHIMy2OyIfOObr9oar8kK vfjH4bayS1c9+ccCWfbBlXO9/JCk1puNLzTphzCh1HK2W0Y0ZZxQw/PMmGEs6mKN6DRO2bKd BQvPpcaJ/YuHyWTywvzHeeB4p5y7SbcV9TYm8B/mR6a2bXxIF409ktG97Ss8Xai3qKbAE8JS oTMgjQrtON6f3C+Vi7rZK7ff20G6mF40MLLFR76Ww78ZhlXWb+Odfc2m4VGqy4SnTx/mWV+c YdQ6GRkazz69bq0trnjDNhXJqranHxo1SaRzLA4Yrul+VMbRXxHIOHiJnsg7JYsa+Y+OlEfx Kldjs+HC2FV2uF26zUywLjeV/LufZ/JXgX/5SzyyYSzi3cm1pcUiO8cPYB1LAU7wfThk43l0 7Cvg05p5BKOR0VRBJNVLU8zjQyef6ofxmbBC8rv4rf5VB0Vy4S8gFJ0wy3SKseycsrmrj8ji Osfsfd8/zP/eadJTYaYZauE5/WzYxuPJptNtfNrqfYouzRaeipM9mNnR/DrHhDw9my3nH53y IU1h5zrpUT7BPMt0leXXNOi/27vW7raNJPvZ+BVtjhMBHpERadmaI0aKM4lnMntOooydnLGj yDwQCUkYkQBNQDblzczP3s9bt6q70XhQtLNaapNFxYFAoB/V1e/qugWbyRv1Pn1jxO3TfVAW 89bWmEtDuY9VZCtGCmgfuKFD4pNkUAqZN4S7Uv9lw9B9U76Y4FMbiO6DxjawVM47UzsH70bn uVtB5gF+O8lcJbTUyQRDIjOes8sr8hDdh99XA/Uo0LV8YXLsV3mX0O+vxuq98vnf+4D+FXKm N3yh/wO+NKfg+9dc+S/Vq0D9RP9sCrUIzjav3EDGPCHyEFjaoNH0uTBbJqeg80UhdCcVXl9k qkPvOpIhBfR136u3Sic4Amh7BrsCEY71+pCCWzQW3csKU1bzfDjE1ktOj9dQsnKGvH4rr8/s ATHFfTeixYKMZUEL6v2Nk4P//ZbW+Nis3Hoea/w/7Ozt1Pw/PNnZafG/myDvxdGPz7969kId YKEcRb3ZVKVzwYbNcExAi7Il7jCS01/v2ctnX1HgAnJqbi+gM/n6CC+fP/vy62+f9S7ymTF+ 5XvPIxHuu1En6dij//fVA59i0qL9Ew64rz7x7okV+yjLlwJRzlSX1m60Pe7myk0Zj2jqzpcD bIm76sHn6vDB0yIlBKCduX6v33oFE8hcCyGg/XWcoJT3Uri5GKtuqh48Vd35XOH3fJd+vraR UWI3to41u8Ravjkm1LbJvjofe/e6tPZ74EOcgS3++XhfXjzsjWcxX2HEA0tLr/f9N0ffvdpn Iw2SGWuAE6T0P6p/p/9Lrd1Su3JpTf9/3O/X+v/OoO3/G6Ey/r8B0x9OZtoVjEHB8wZJMB7x 3MLzeAeUZXGUsY8XKAGj3ECuYLmTsybJyxdQ9bJpNWvwrdHRPH0nuiy2MWfFJUC/kwg650Ef 5qaUyNXi2nP006yXYaOvmbbLoa01G7bBdAWWL+o8pT0n7IZlc+eoTrxTsJzm0SIeuwqloIZU wj5fH17B/JpGmUKnzhZUZVypxsK459OFxcUQ0eXM/doiXfWOCMAN/X52JSuv0jIMG3k5wAUA MaFnKLJWnopqn4HQGogO1a2rKHNWqZwL1DZTtgbS+AlRAsrhk8LZE8XikMDLOJp61C5t98ES 649S2cRDt5SKSRzHcnSxrLCeheNFavLaZnUib7Ivrs/jKJGSs6FToice2ihHotViVwNaR8YN hi31aVsfLaAdfhfFCwbBWaUzt7FJKkpn4JfOwrd0y9B7qNOpRcyC+8hR2piaZ9HVJO3OwsXl 1ZwFMa9qkEjmxRGTo7FAxlmUwCz5LZTMr0evkbARJNUqVKqoVjinCHH2A+URdEs0iLPVtggI crGIMpRQm+WI4SyyuUq0DS0t5N/GbI7nHWkdJGtH0K6sHjRGaz0N5SCfMvkLsMuCs7WHanDO VAIPgi1tFgqd/4IeCaS8UMs5iCK2VDyPckZ/fpcWSnGwEGcXcGdEzTFeQkmSXp1f6ENi4s5C 2R0LKKRSoP0yDVd14WBoCRqByfCnyEAdUdMMpbc41OK4UI7N5GQCzclBuVLnv7zWsBDWjQv0 kXqghu9k11kezURMeQnN6RhcF/gOjRnc5kFPY8bRR2iIoEaFRNLFJE5CDRHLGvwqWCgrbU7H vCWEYZ3VbVMPZF5SBRsSbATV+YItLfQ4/AO1cyrkD+FijiMW9DXR9lpzQgsiQkLv0gUGDnPG TTVNYmIwknsSWABUp+HsdBKiddDoeMWWeAIIxrlHGE8Le38RWrW6ufYc20g+WE95sCmMrli9 huGUqgaREjOSwIaR9ucTM0U8f/Y9x5a8xPIT9lqCyk+TyGl4X/KOGMhlNpBluyRtfMwmtgwF tY5aLOfTcHwp1rHSx+yhqbEEM51xG5phbn9/M+ZRopLXgGkzzE7j0wUagMXNhca8kQL+U84/ Ku3xAqAoOR6mPhAVdpQ8b2IMNLAqtEcRhkEs8oERwA0Nk517eoKTFZk+MMJ1kWU3T7usosUZ ClfcaRQxnpub/tvIGhvP+CRJLWBgCq226S5FWxPNJidyEU4KzC1D2GgMSZAkHJcVVeA0H9hO Rdpz0CmOQGDaqVF8Z7SEY/0Gzla7MEVJcCQVhQuxOAq5w0DzzNMCFLmMrta+amYhG5tqA9rQ TYXd5EyBcRTAt/FpQ7eebZLaWqc70xh5kf732obHPFW0X5hnMmyxJSGkUxzhOR1CQ18A09GV w3b8EF+mzRdC9VdMGD8gYcxkANTS+DyP+EwWYJcEYKgYp6ZjHioiGSF5gsjgeIkmKuuVAEVi wOskQg9m5GPhIajkkI+YezeieTzLaPFxaRw/tf7dfpvk7P/0Dv/281iz/9sb7OxW93+7g912 /7cJ8mjISNQLqH48uPG5oh7+4npG2w11oL4N5z1oBZXPAY4WNHXSZC+nvRgY/hxORuHiXND2 ORYdzks9/o14/PNoIU+DHU2hBwbj1kniacfjF7Rg4O0LzZYjOX1PKJyZOdiZE+gX9SJ6ozLV PWSkujpUO4KO4jgj4UB1/M4Qg1regxsIBc8ZbPVD0WxK5cz85I/9gMMMK0mpTqCyYTk3m0g5 aNChFLJIPzXaeT9wuZeCcwFKkTMn0LL21ufChFmWjultOh+xv46gEJ0OLdWm/xzYJKU6HWHA HEcLpCKIHbwbriig6nYpAsm2GgdpBTpfYco/PAzUmTondqkalU83Ab+IJ/xoyT/OktGYDUOk rlXOFav291Vu3rMtHu2Z3BBT9bQIkKejhKdoygZZHZ8UYuGGN7pK4jOZovUmuyYgMUz2EWRb WwuL/Vi53R3r6hthFYEqONnm5yMwpYVM+1nxHOhmVUnHp6XqHOAP/jHZ359kgds2LUuadR/h KILcILBfKpma6HyCKsOaweMTcFjnRRdnu1aCmrCcWCb4IoypsZf7uFRKPJ2OrK0y35RFbqqH Tcqbe7kj6KzUbeHhriSonFbRmnP2UZhVOQbxMof2pqMz3iVBGPY9Na+m8YXrhvsdLQ6F1Syo 9tIlPwA2SVxqUFGL1qdhWKNY0Z5wPDYyyCjhoukhMM7W4uSKrRgFgn1Qiuwj9uEhXpleJsEc UUgTRtrccOuyTESW1Lc4aqW5gQ2p74NfK1GM7aUgcVKUzDddXfcu8ODVxF4wV46pB4GsHo9t MRGPJiE3enWEotfDIs14UktILAhXSKeJGf+FnIxgx2DHaewhR3rYJ6rl8neobhrYrcuJu/ox BTtpSOZr0YNRAtxR6S+jeG6oW5qNzPRwUB8WObZ+Xele1UbsJFTl6ivGUenS9fXfwU1cMcy0 bziSaNywUHjpYKanHS9PStFDbc+TDdzogxuiV0u2Qua+ZuqpTr6pGv+mzQNuKls6nRhBQW4j YrM0DKyUcyXiCmF/ySYNlL/0WqcpaCTIDazls/kNjUES1AOAmDRVeKXF0P0jfUTIBgSlNZgk XOQxXCf18nyh2S/iN8j/mQgLZUSVlTtTKTv/oQYFlqCJWmsoJnQCL0lcHSRbAqsyjdPpVKv0 rbV5ntKm+oKNdQ2S0KCDC0Dsw6BWAexGaYDqHdQXI25APRlwwOqIv6Y26jOlS+WF3XMp+j6t 7VbGqI6o3FnAU1CLQsNjPZ0Vs2FTqT66ROXSvMijOSW5sjSNJaE2VC5IrRBFAXT1xWbZhcjl 4Rk8r2iRDr/ucr3O6k2zlSzoXEGWViaUtbNE8+0mrbyP4C1dz+4m9HYCDcEefJTXKTTpQBMW 2QGttPzGQ6d+CnHZaFSQ0rCic2kVR3dJrv5HTiCyW/8Q0Md9/4f1P3uPH7Xf/9kENdU/20v2 3t1aHuvsvx7Vvv+zN9hr9X8bIa5rD2aqHoxL6f/3noJZr/dSvVI/eeol//sJh+/0YEyhpuEF rildf/I8nYCSJJRJREWXl0tceKfNCSokpF711auBevWIbil19RxTG+uE6OU1NgOv+nSDZf2r Ad08wg0Ffk9/KbxeEXEsnTWbEatd9di7ULlnH5+GxNB56F1714r/a6eZJmrq//+8xb4Puvn7 LzQ39Peq33/Z3Rm0/X8TRN1yoib5HNYunjfxzmlRKE4k6Pe9b6LpNN1mdOlWJseHWC1+4d1b wjEfX/RVEhnLvfoOkNM8VbNIjh235TmbqVMuxq2m5CIIerHV4WPQcBEDnSemNrx0TChLBq2z R+Lx1QI4HOFiYt2L0A+TwXWUAfiP98QV1prqM1ywTVX7QJhKOBgOSDAuRZmvf7AdAZhy3IHy ovwLk/W1qqRQEon+Y/8qYYtkjtHQilr/5pT0PWsWtUQREU4+UHyGT5ny8imtnPNrAXz8GNfU /3NK6jaHgHXz/2DwuDr/99vzv83QxEuo1Q2pK2iIu8d9Xv0DNkH36TGmdentFFBxdzVoeKfZ v8FlYu9sAGxkqw/UfXXfiYoMuLmLNh0/71oo/49oVf8fbHD9j4+9Vtf/O3tt/98ELfXXknjy EeUU/2ELJ90lzR8TiJVynlwp+NEkhQ+xKL+MkygpzWZ3XbqW1tGq/v9ok/v/vdr8P+i33//d CGH9r7f/tNjM03gWxzTre+EspHVukmWxs7d/496bG+dO3y5/VZRfH+tXxJTB666F/3+AVvX/ 3dvu/zfs/3d22/n/rmgJdyMvVZ/60r2XygDfFZ4N1Et5+rLtKL9bWtX/H29w/t/Zrev/2/6/ GZoAu6MuZrMvvG9m8Cn+HwCwlOiuWWzpf5FW9f8nm5z/9wb19X+L/94ILb2JOoK7l8sUTvvC +TxUtAAIPTgko/tcftBr/OKr5yFCOyz8Lsjp/9r3xe3nsW7+33vSr+N/2vO/jZDgf7S5nQud ALAYlm1vHSuw+Ez7hpnzm56fBDfZ5olb1JFEsTHqpm6cmWBwEMg1zRdITTX5qcBfzxlLVJhh 8+fuLWOlGLApdGwJffjm69UtAdkkjuEWlHqJU7HZi/g7CZHqwH9WpxRA22vCePWAvxXbs6Z0 N7PSlLKb8DpWJdMgcMUmFTli+16SbZ/ElPVYttVh2+n/hdufW25j6+b/wZPa+X9/r53/N0IO Xu/HhCHPur9KE5KGegCHIuospL7IT80gkOUL8RvVO945obut7ha/L3f8RohPp8tJd2CnKpns H7DvFhdqVBixVnm7a7H9bsjp/8b/163nsWb+7/d3a/P/k36/7f+bII+/Fa2dDB0YEK88RHtw Zn+LJQPYVxwEF680JqMKUamhlhpgNFWAVA1TVAV8VW3tqziuCrBMsMmR/q6iHsDE6t0p3bEp wrbqLDtDYZ/u2ZqQfgv79GBCPwzr9NOoTJ05m5lCSB7hhroU9GBMP7iIdP+G7rk0dD9fIM2E PYh32DSpo04Mp8SkskDEDG66NfOmJHl4XgrDGN9wW50yEm5bhUERxUK8LZ5bKv1qXEiNKz83 DgErUEX4fYrYh/CB+ibMLvLTae8CXqBD1S0/OPV4IXLXDbylG8kd/42vx9vOY834/xjK3sr6 b6e1/9oMlfw/cM+fRstoVhn3BVpVOHkoXh3NxWkPXsL3WmksnugPTZbH7O9PF1F4KcObtvFE zHnzQtHf8rfoz1bA10/4+ilfH/D1D3z9I1+7fP2Mr/t8/ZyvB1vOfop+H/LTL/j6lK8//8x/ /s3X13z9ha8P+drja4evx5XETvjpf/L1X5IYPrlAY2/TcrZYRBdfIlhR8i0lqeXyJ5E/i62b k7ZbePFPx440aMzOIrdqjj9XW5T8UOzpDxlOpsPLPpytSSvhiZHGCL6ffPangGI9/FNTRAmc MF/zNMtG5+F8JU8opUSolNAmVAgQhXyXLoBQX5HcWD7rBPdhfqmljQP16afy3K2GceAWcCUW kjP1M/Vad4wef6qwj1RXFT+zHOvPTICPdXyP1eeHXPElsZcSWJWfH9gM8/QySuL30U0yHyps 8kztDLnR6Ord+SCRxHD2wfoMJCk9fKi29BCQDAsudGIrU2KFDxL5gLi6AEPif0wcu5IpiayU QLOsS83gYyOX21YpNkLZMXK8rixoEdy6Op1SKqwAM04eBOReEyDtqTs6xwbx6jEC7OjRPPuA SsEKjiHjN7ehcnPB0tFGKKTg1CeyEodA2rta1DwCHudSAyV0q3bOsbQN/CJdxO9H7FejuYXr Ai+lsmSdHM3YlU72Qa276n+HV9z7+07ODW2jELNTkdYD0LrYbpupx/drA8+a9HQ1nFih2U+n yfexVkjOdOQ6B52fkw4yraTTUBJT73osVocSdMiN3UZPPqgirJ+Qj8/2wM3WiuqDci1a6Yfl vTKHhn7c0FGPTV3VX3Ef/gh2DFmVsEV2F9F2tNsex5EJT0w6pG+7Muucw1kvPbPhgqCIy9r3 s3UxaYxMEmLTx7pzBNc5AaDnd70MbqmlllpqqaWWWmqppZZaaqmlllpqqaWWWmqppZZaaqml llpqqaWWWmqppd8k/TfqbRpQAMgAAA== --SUOF0GtieIMvvwua-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Sep 10 03:48:41 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C5ZXI-000LML-OH; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 03:45:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 10 Sep 2004 03:44:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.170.206] helo=mproxy.gmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1C5ZWz-000LM6-1G for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 10 Sep 2004 03:44:50 +0300 Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 73so629468rnl for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.24.70 with SMTP id 70mr3904432rnx; Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.162.54 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:44:43 -0700 From: Rozencrantz the Sane To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Essies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_435_30331721.1094777083704" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rozencrantz@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang ------=_Part_435_30331721.1094777083704 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Here are my Essies, I release both of them to the Public Domain (scary!) Wingnut is an excersize in redefining the passage of time as a function, and Antenora is a joke I've been saving for just such an occasion. I submit Wingnut to category 1 and Antenora to categories 1, 2, and 5 (see the readme for an explanation.) -- ">:#,_$82*1+2*,52*,@ rekcaH egnufeB rehtonA tsuJ "Quidquid Latinae dictum sit altum sonatur" ------=_Part_435_30331721.1094777083704 Content-Type: application/x-zip-compressed; name="antenora.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="antenora.zip" UEsDBBQAAAAIAIGNKTEQ5hCqQgIAAP4DAAAKAAAAcmVhZG1lLnR4dFWT3Y4TMQyF71fad/AVtKJU 2pW4Rou0iEqAEPACnow7E5rEQ37aLU/Pceh2xVWUHx/7fHZ25DgKtYVOvs5UZ6GBi3fkR2Haa6aH VCVpZmIKmiaqHu950g0NrdKOZj4KaQpnSnqiSSueE2dtaaSqlCUIBBHo65Z2lU5cqLDH5cwV2atM mr0UuqNXdE8nyUKx1cYBkvLkQiv+KBsqSrPd+ULxTKUN0ZfiNVmSQVH7f1KM7PcbQq6ThGDrO/rV Su2WDt4dyvY54Ex38CKOW5F/FJiKj0swFO7wViBlcj7tffIV1UlE1AaG6KQtjAimny2bx8ffzR85 SKq0GsROpBTsfHfz4SPJ9cG687vkA+DIgZzGpVXJJm0+4RdhDIijdy1oK+TOCzB0G5Dr3B0vPKBa 3YPXkpHREh8FzsqsudKSdcocy/b25vbmAW2cvEM2eapWGhAi8trm1beqQaJ4fr/eXAzi3mnL4AOr 4F35gBlI0PdT8nuoJWORD/ayQpdWhUHoy6VFj5xhczjTZ/qO7ac2DJzHdcfaUZ9NHxrSq3YzZ3bG YdX5wKutCl5lYSdljWb0WR3VtWi00WDrWprA4Q3mzG6zgJKYWgDwqVesCZyg06/NCpC/jD8nCCOv lGoIr0wuAKl1snXuvUFB45a+2veBa3OPeWs4zS/71OIgfX/1VDbdtlWPPC30TM8J0K/LQOHkiD84 vrxesv8jxgkPMpuffdYI2z8wpfRaUa59TXiygVms8dYqRAa1dhsnLD7BXG3W9+1fUEsDBBQAAAAI AFSjDDE9po7aoQMAAJl0AAARAAAAYW50ZW5vcmEtc3BlYy50eHTt3V1r40YUxvFrC/wdTnNlE8V0 37JLaLtkl74YSluyLr0IuRhLx9ZQacaMRnG8n74zltfP0kIp9Kr0+V8llvTTaKT7s2pUbl1U54OR XfDbYLrOuq20xm0Hs1WxvcR00tBG25moErRPf4vfHH/u41Bb7fO/qyHkC1cm7GzsF/LBy8aE41m1 DVpF610vjXlUWas6ufhO9xpk6foYhvHohcz2NjZiPruLd1qK6cU6+Xn54b34IL/epT/mYlz9CXnf mGCqqKGXO6381tmPWifttIZRy6tLyvNP3G+NDW0pSx9NKRqredqJWmxMa+zHJW7VaTBtexBTVbqL WqfHMTGt77w9lXHOx3SH011lc1xQOi3dSarzuhbY5lo7nx867Wbe27zBPt0vrbTtx2c9n3pme9Gn BKWVpP0AeyOX5XEfYlAT+7x4M76vynfdcYOWrgraqYtyW1VDN7Qm+nAxLabFyqxblWc3skrnd2a3 Sxs0Lb6cfDUtnk2+mRbPJ5fT4sXkalq8nNxPi1eTh2lxPSmnxevJIl9/6/7y6ZT53q7MH01awM62 acfWh3F1efvzytzQrdMOpVd7md9C/ul0dV67kbXp9eqNbL3W2p7OztfuG1s1p8/RHdebcO/S3mXC 4jOSXo9fzrtgrNsM1e+L/IRBNz7ocYE4cr7z/dWD7P3Q1vlF6NMufTF94u1nj2j6m7QTL17N1m/m +fEv/2X/CyFv1E9+X0p+AfnlGXHpnQX7aE0rs8Y0X8zzp93tWk3bW94vyoevr1++vj5t89/i/yQS iAQigUggEogEIoFIIBKIBCKBSCASiAQigUggEogEIoFIIBKIBCKBSCASiAQigUggEogEIoFIIBKI BCKBSCASiAQigUggEogEIoFIIBKIBCKBSCASiAQigUggEogEIoFIIBKIBCKBSCASiAQigUggEogE IoFIIBKIBCKBSCASiAQigUggEogEIoFIIBKIBCKBSCASiAQigUggEogEIoFIIBKIBCKBSCASiAQi gUggEogEIoFIIBLoP03kSXnL7jh40D5qKc6/HYcsHvbmMI4tbP3WVqYVfYrqjpMO/QbzCWe/RN/a Ts3b+WmU4Ti0Uow7YGLkQr5PvBvnTp6hUjbWpQtkZ/o+j7XM4z3TUZkt8wzKyneaDr8zMba6sZrs b02ITZ7t+KPcpYX8MKzXJtTz05TGg9q2/tOwv/OQxzyusslDQPt4/nFv21a2mkdr7oL9qIs/AFBL AQIUABQAAAAIAIGNKTEQ5hCqQgIAAP4DAAAKAAAAAAAAAAEAIAC2gQAAAAByZWFkbWUudHh0UEsB AhQAFAAAAAgAVKMMMT2mjtqhAwAAmXQAABEAAAAAAAAAAQAgALaBagIAAGFudGVub3JhLXNwZWMu dHh0UEsFBgAAAAACAAIAdwAAADoGAAAAAA== ------=_Part_435_30331721.1094777083704 Content-Type: application/x-zip-compressed; name="wingnut.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="wingnut.zip" UEsDBBQAAAAIAHeuCzH1X0xOfQUAAAsXAAAQAAAAV2luZ251dC1zcGVjLnR4dMVYbW/bNhD+HAH6 D7di2PLiGFaadm26rkiTAvOwJkWaFg32AjASZbGRSY2kHHsI9tt3R+rNiQPURabZsEQ/OpLPPTxS 5B3mOQhprC5jK5Q0wDQHzWdcG3GZ8wEwmUDGZhz2IFbS8rk1kCoNc7Biyt3jhSuGQRicZxy4nAmt 5JRLSzWMMFhDpQdhcAjHzDL4yGOLDWy+mw/eLbYGcJ2JOINCCYmGVgHzZVASi3+VTFuud4ucSQ5T Pq2qYWsSxi1xmFWtju18MLaLwdjg3Sy21mleSEjLPF90BAiDjb3Eu4oy3WkdXb5WEDNU0VgWX5kB WNTgvNRy96hBnUqE/1JOiw5Oku3SZ2d35edh4DAgneAG6s+O/dSUl+CLVTDsdsyX4Nb8ph8//vAU zpRlloPl00JpltfMKtgULBY1uq51GFSPjxSaS4phlYKoQvZh4KaPywU8H8Gtz71wzlN758F9cD/j 8Zun8BDC32N9z3jM/pPxWEth0GKS3cHvg/sZj588hbcKl+vjjxUVJWPu4LGMNXfLMi2jxx+3lq2d m5Uxwsd8lXU/fvz4FczW87ofP/5cZlYWjRfLzLZbaq11oq7lSq+71v34MYP1ma3ndT9+fOspfJBM L+Ds5PDkuA2KZbjhtqZ1P378U0tZlBaOMqZZjJuYVmGCx7hXmyC4yVXuCJ+W9q55Ay+b9+THd0sU vozZel7348fvnsKvtE6ZTKTdtWYJ3u4E0Jlbp26ZL8N9x9V2M0XhE+7d65dlO3Ph4i6M03+VNcF3 rZt37WnaXY+hrvUQcD9avfIU3lfbGLfjH6c1s/N6G9PFb+ANngO6NTrwUo0e/fjsKYwnUuHJr5RW 5JAKjQeGFwifKFAF18wdsVrhibCgGkJOOvBq6378ePEVzFZ5/fl/9uPMMztzJ1COM8udPWvCNXyx Gv4i6378mHsKdbT7Xdn+k4pZE+1dvLV2O77KuGvdxXvy4xtPgeKq0Gqi2RSkAq61O1F8Aeyx57cb aeF+/AiDt3yqcMsyZUWBk+MA3rA4g5jnOZ2GKDvhsjPLGZGYSZf2YUICFpm+FFYzLfIF5ExPOGgm 8apS3CSyvOTGJ4wYuH+u+iV3XfIELikVgo0p15vvwGZalZPMIanKc3VNE9csDB4ED8JgFO0Ph8Mw eLz3xN2f/fDU3Yf1Faob3QHw1DXfGeFvD39P8RfthcFix12e0iWKSIn3xIBZEPVelPokBp8Ax6T7 1kJlWJ1auhY2g22sNFP5jBvSg88tNYBqUJVcxHiETcIgLaVPSlXCejFQQvqTkMok+9BlzPz7wYDm jHS7VCrnpHS7KSBBi9JkICxU2rUJJ5dvwobppVGffMDq0mfmqpMTpCw3fAin0r9q0NjnqerehIFC uTGqM1WuQYTrFpomm058m3XWr7sdtuyK5EGCbhVGETBqMDIobZgIE5fGkDhFqQtl0DKKohF+o9HI l1w/RmlryGVBATPBKCkojQiPKY8Y4Ui7Xxi8xoL/jsLgyKH0DJ9sGm7dyDIjEiK/AJUkyGCCbFwC MXGUOM0DP1KGDyDOWVzmOJAGTk7PN4+2QKRAfm0eDl5vvYwaiTQ3ZW5JpEN4DUffY4spbUhthlDG DEY+jkyCgeS6cUPGbZUh9LPFZVtxflHcSIodHOAJx+e66aWlXKVmDcYiT4a4HXPP+Zxh5PEDGoiO LB1RmlUAp1OlXORtq2LHIKoEHDXThBK6SesrvqCcFrfHbMvv7F76wYzcA/yOXENvaK3DqtHGB6l5 rCZS/I2+dvLOYbC34fKi712+9BTfWymuBTjxu/AHmdT4/u6zDfqbCkkz7vnGhSq9QGrBKIWblvEV yfSzunZeZLTQJQoWaFdKLGDYP+osyK8e/QtQSwMEFAAAAAgASHwLMU58FZLuBQAAaQwAAAoAAABy ZWFkbWUudHh0dVZtj9tEEP5+0v2HoVLVu6sT3goq/UQRVAoSFLWHCh839thZst41u+sk5tfzzKyd S+mhSlXOHs/LM888M/c7pg/Wd37MNMTQRdP3+JOc8d1oOiabKHimIdiU7NYxRU6jyxRayvi2sake 8Sb4RMedrXeUQ9jT4EzN+FBtemOd+rQpU48PvucUMkdbrxPC8Lq11IxRTNQ8+LwT/z+PblrThnam oS2zp6PxWa0CNZxs58n4hmw/OO7ZZzIPabchUgo9U7Y9V7RFeeLbNmwSfplMtZG3gfC/cY7YN9wQ Xg7WcZLwdfA1D3k0jpIz3Zo+yGcbZJEQp95LJvJbwuSd/HXn+XhXXTzQQEjfP8ulgkaw3DKyY6ms ZUSOBpkh212IM6z4qDdxX9Le4EEYu10uL6SKuQUS3HoAyUlhYS92UlMat73N8kvMf0J/OK2vr66v 7mcMJE4PH7YBPF7ahyov+4+2+yCIoiQhQFWg9tSauiSBuD09eTOigcE2T1BmKjXWwXpAWZpUR7sF wH76H3b5hTWSmE85jnVWMpnI9MSbg+1MZriHpWCHtvYAj855p8KQAxIyexbCIfWOPUdUNLewJM+n HM0QnPijgs6LCz+VNF+oZlxk00wXDTtaEPJF49Z0L94LpXbhyAeOFcKnuT8gE3LQWuZqqR2dm9Cw AU0CRY1MEErJx/BxaC9xU6Abzf+oJBUvFkSYKGz/YuBy4FtJ0gBYDAnAMoKV9nJaWCLjinjIrIzr BewV8Oi32hyt6PILJcMKeGXA9FEnqsWYSWx6wEddALgIe65LyY56Hqtt5jfYW+QAaTc2F8oJupcU VB9Hpr0PRyXsW5nDMSYAjpYBmtbYCEQxxpMAfs5AXbcwXV36q8NcSZIhR8egJJOaXlIweHh8rCXJ gj8LvxYHHvPFrl31obGtrUsPVG9EiWxt8/QMqgAmwMknFT5QYemdOZPlGEbX6NxhZvhUMwb3wMgN gRAJ8FdoFKYFJOgDxPQHbmX+FgcJoubl294MAzJFNwPx36M9GCcQ/e7/Yy+zg7gSkdPAtTVOo6Ud m5jZL3DZdMH3BRSIDtRLhG5fpGnZIw/s5DQryKWWDroa2o+ZKRyzhR9ng0VbkuogUINaiTSJ7AsE MJk40+j5NDiIQoMwEYO/KB1kQlRE10DkOnTe/qMDeDDRmiIzaMGcdoUdpAvBHLCvzLzqQKhaqgAZ hJOOG+wr8f/Gept5tdR8M/9Yfff17avrq3NDJAEU3y6SaB7Ke/nF6atvqMYKSHRzPw9FCN77iu7f vf5xc795++tntxpbcLmjMEDVMpgmWqtEKByUNjE4apHtK3oLcGjCPrEtirqTobngAHK4ef68v32K 2JBep1va0KnYF/OyhTVz2a2n66ubL+k53ci2uenpc6R+S/LvDr/kRU9P5RnGdZZnHYWpUk8IPHIh emOy0YohAqw6rHJ2gLihqjnyScNibpCtyhKGqhARwQY3FqvpwWpNv4RmdCbSEQI/KJ/MXthU9h98 g0Wg3vJakplHp5KoYyrNgUI1ruj35jfRKQyfmo+6mLdh9E3Zoxvp6OP9/1b6/8l7aUJSpdQRe58R ysTm/P6ssaaROwSzNaAilYhl7c909iJ6mC5bnxmsiCrMMtH+E+8VBUxuC/laeBJ12x3lu/mI6CDR Ua4xkT6EQamsrNV6X6epx1GDoI9U/FIrzsvN4FmEC2trXmsROrtFzfJOzrYos1WpYq7yH2qzyn8K /tuCPZ/kxrBedlg5xWYzWMlXIkPa/h4P1/QOcnMo1xYyiML1WO5BCBVoJj50mQa5YHGKZqtPwojr s2mDa0qitaqvqryGmckPMcXX+M/WRQe6ULRADl50hl3CLff+fPMBzygXTXFZXOCZihmwmkU+jVGE fbuk5eYLq5waKvhoOGqYV3IqlRs4rncmAiCRYpXL/STI1w6S7ebdZnH9LesTD2R76o57ECn9ZIwS As9boFRyKDdBWQvHEPXIDUVwXRcisuulU7VxtfCzNKzM76qfp0sy/S8F1/8CUEsDBAoAAAAAAJeL KTEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJAAAAZXhhbXBsZXMvUEsDBBQAAAAIAD2MKTGAhFMCQwAAAFgAAAARAAAA ZXhhbXBsZXMvY2F0MS50eHQLKM0tUMjMKygtUUjJLEpNLsmpVCjJV8gvLQEK6Si4+rvZGvBy8XJF 83IpQIAihBUNwkBxkER0rF10Xax9HVxNdDQAUEsDBBQAAAAIALyLKTFtZd/9RwAAAHsAAAAVAAAA ZXhhbXBsZXMvb3V0cHV0LWEudHh0Uw4oyswr0XVUsLJSADOLFRwVEvNSFFIrMkuKebmiebkUICBa AQEQomCgqBZtF2sHFIwGSUTH2gEBSARE2cTa2KOqhhoRDQBQSwMEFAAAAAgA0IspMX+5bZxJAAAA rAAAABQAAABleGFtcGxlcy9hYi1sb29wLnR4dPMvLSkoLVFwdHJ0UkjLL0otSy3i5eLliublUoCC aAUEQBJGFgWJR4PkomPtQCDaDkxH28Ta2KPox2UAdmGgBNCgaDUwtrGJBgBQSwMEFAAAAAgAJIwp MTvMzzSZAAAA2wAAABwAAABleGFtcGxlcy9leGFtcGxlcy1yZWFkbWUudHh0JY5RjoMwEEOv4gPQ ij1Gf/YOAzhl1EkGkUnZ3r6B/bA/np5k/3oQsUr0YiX4J3kzVrR6cqKaPtewD7IvmpQLkhYN3g4t z9ICUpYenFDFoBvMZwn1Ak8Yh/Ey3pzDd/wM4x0PrPImJrKgFZmsLzmC9TqR8WEMqA5NvTO9ELM3 W5DlRQgO3199vMO8qXH//39cykSstC01u38BUEsBAhQAFAAAAAgAd64LMfVfTE59BQAACxcAABAA AAAAAAAAAQAgALaBAAAAAFdpbmdudXQtc3BlYy50eHRQSwECFAAUAAAACABIfAsxTnwVku4FAABp DAAACgAAAAAAAAABACAAtoGrBQAAcmVhZG1lLnR4dFBLAQIUAAoAAAAAAJeLKTEAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAJAAAAAAAAAAAAEAD/QcELAABleGFtcGxlcy9QSwECFAAUAAAACAA9jCkxgIRTAkMAAABYAAAA EQAAAAAAAAABACAAtoHoCwAAZXhhbXBsZXMvY2F0MS50eHRQSwECFAAUAAAACAC8iykxbWXf/UcA AAB7AAAAFQAAAAAAAAABACAAtoFaDAAAZXhhbXBsZXMvb3V0cHV0LWEudHh0UEsBAhQAFAAAAAgA 0IspMX+5bZxJAAAArAAAABQAAAAAAAAAAQAgALaB1AwAAGV4YW1wbGVzL2FiLWxvb3AudHh0UEsB AhQAFAAAAAgAJIwpMTvMzzSZAAAA2wAAABwAAAAAAAAAAQAgALaBTw0AAGV4YW1wbGVzL2V4YW1w bGVzLXJlYWRtZS50eHRQSwUGAAAAAAcABwC7AQAAIg4AAAAA ------=_Part_435_30331721.1094777083704-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Sep 27 10:46:36 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1CBq7v-000AKQ-4k; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:40:51 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:40:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1CBq7d-000AK7-7V for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:40:34 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id i8R7eRn34782 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2004 00:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 00:40:38 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Brainfuck Component Competition #1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang [posted for Keymaker by me, Daniel Cristofani.] Hi everyone. If anyone is interested, there's currently a small brainfuck programming competition running. After some correcting and fixing, the rules should be now fine. Here is the official competition site: http://info1.info.tampere.fi/~lhetuhe/bfcc/ Also, I've used Brainfuck Golf forums a bit, hopefully nobody cares: http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=201037 The purpose of the competition is to have fun, get some new brainfuck code released and to offer components for fellow brainfuck programmers that can be used in programs. Shortly, the task is to make a program that reverses data (that is initially put in to memory cells). The score a program gets, will be counted from program length, how many instructions executed and memory used. (Read more from the page.) The prizes will be joy of winning/placing. In the best case some small picture. Use your imagination to get some nice fictional prize. ;) The more submissions, the better. :) Good luck. - Keymaker -- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Oct 14 05:41:24 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1CHvXq-00037i-Bo; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:40:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:40:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from bay18-f24.bay18.hotmail.com ([65.54.187.74] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1CHvXg-00036v-Ts; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:40:38 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 19:40:01 -0700 Received: from 66.82.9.73 by by18fd.bay18.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 02:39:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.82.9.73] X-Originating-Email: [lponeil@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lponeil@hotmail.com From: "Lawrence O'Neil" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi, misc@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: 22:38 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:39:14 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2004 02:40:01.0885 (UTC) FILETIME=[1AABA0D0:01C4B197] X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lponeil@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc help lang help misc end _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Oct 14 05:43:48 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1CHvY7-000380-6y; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:41:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:40:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from bay18-f24.bay18.hotmail.com ([65.54.187.74] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1CHvXg-00036v-Ts; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:40:38 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 19:40:01 -0700 Received: from 66.82.9.73 by by18fd.bay18.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 02:39:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.82.9.73] X-Originating-Email: [lponeil@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lponeil@hotmail.com From: "Lawrence O'Neil" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi, misc@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] 22:38 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:39:14 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2004 02:40:01.0885 (UTC) FILETIME=[1AABA0D0:01C4B197] X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lponeil@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang help lang help misc end _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Oct 14 05:44:46 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1CHvbh-0003Dl-Mq; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:44:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:44:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from bay18-f33.bay18.hotmail.com ([65.54.187.83] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1CHvbY-0003CW-QP for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:44:37 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 19:44:03 -0700 Received: from 66.82.9.73 by by18fd.bay18.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 02:43:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.82.9.73] X-Originating-Email: [lponeil@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lponeil@hotmail.com From: "Lawrence O'Neil" To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: help Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:43:06 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2004 02:44:03.0686 (UTC) FILETIME=[AACB8860:01C4B197] X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lponeil@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc help _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 11 18:20:09 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1CSHcZ-000O3n-RS; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:16:27 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:16:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from corbilm1.eme.co.uk ([217.205.121.199] helo=corphnxsmsw01.eme.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1CSHcI-000O2V-2g for Lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:16:10 +0200 Received: from corshwdsexn01.corp.pg.eon.net (unverified) by corphnxsmsw01.eme.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.14) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:31:38 +0000 Received: from CORPHNXSEXV01.corp.pg.eon.net ([10.80.38.11]) by corshwdsexn01.corp.pg.eon.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC (5.0.2195.6713); Thu , 11 Nov 2004 15:32:29 +0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C4C803.A7FF6048" Subject: [lang] Oh Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:32:30 -0000 Message-ID: <33C3DEE7361D394290F8CC76E38666380CE321@CORPHNXSEXV01.corp.pg.eon.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Oh Thread-Index: AcTIA7rpu2lv+mQESM20vmeODx7ceg== From: "Warren, Matthew \(Retail\)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Nov 2004 15:32:29.0486 (UTC) FILETIME=[A78F4CE0:01C4C803] X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Matthew.Warren@Powergen.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4C803.A7FF6048 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Threres another verse; Who can take a baby=20 spread apart its thighs=20 fu*k it in the ass until the *hit comes out its eyes The S&M man. . . .=20 Who can take two ice picks=20 stick 'em in her ears=20 ride her like a Harley as you mount her from the rear the S&M man. . . . _-'-_ -|- ___________________________ Disclaimer Notice __________________________ This message and any attachments are confidential and should only be read b= y those to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, = please contact us, delete the message from your computer and destroy any co= pies. Any distribution or copying without our prior permission is prohibite= d. Internet communications are not always secure and therefore Powergen Retail= Limited does not accept legal responsibility for this message. The recipie= nt is responsible for verifying its authenticity before acting on the conte= nts. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do = not necessarily represent those of Powergen Retail Limited.=20 Registered addresses: Powergen Retail Limited, Westwood Way, Westwood Business Park, Coventry, CV= 4 8LG. Registered in England and Wales No: 3407430 Telephone +44 (0) 2476 42 4000 Fax +44 (0) 2476 42 5432 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4C803.A7FF6048 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh

Threres = another verse;


Who can take a = baby
spread apart its thighs
fu*= k it in the ass until the *hit comes out its eyes The S&M man= . . . .
Who can take two ice picks
stick 'em in her ears
ride her like a Harley as you mount her from the rear the S&M man. . . = .

_-'-_

  -|-<= /FONT>



___________________________ Disclaimer Notice __________________________
This message and any attachments are confidential and should only be read b= y those to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, = please contact us, delete the message from your computer and destroy any co= pies. Any distribution or copying without our prior permission is prohibite= d.

Internet communications are not always secure and therefore Powergen Retail= Limited does not accept legal responsibility for this message. The recipie= nt is responsible for verifying its authenticity before acting on the conte= nts. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do = not necessarily represent those of Powergen Retail Limited.

Registered addresses:

Powergen Retail Limited, Westwood Way, Westwood Business Park, Coventry, CV= 4 8LG.
Registered in England and Wales No: 3407430

Telephone +44 (0) 2476 42 4000
Fax +44 (0) 2476 42 5432
 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4C803.A7FF6048-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 14 07:06:09 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1Ce4oL-000JvX-CE; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 07:01:21 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 14 Dec 2004 07:01:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from uni02mr.unity.ncsu.edu ([152.1.1.165]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1Ce4ny-000JvP-E7 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 07:01:04 +0200 Received: from webmail.ncsu.edu (uni21wi.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.2.141]) by uni02mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040817.03) with ESMTP id iBE50r4Y018371 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 00:00:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216.154.205.203 (SquirrelMail authenticated user bcthomp2); by webmail.ncsu.edu with HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 00:00:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4210.216.154.205.203.1103000453.squirrel@216.154.205.203> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 00:00:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [lang] Developing functions for my esoteric language From: bcthomp2@ncsu.edu To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.12.13.41 X-Spam-Status: No, Hits=7% X-Spam-Level: IIIIIII X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bcthomp2@ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang I've been working on an esoteric programming language for quite some time, putting it on and off on numerous occassions - in fact, I was hoping to include it in this years contest back in September. What I've been developing has been a two-dimensional language that goes beyond the traditional false-derivative that ends up looking like Befunge, except that a couple things have been taken out or removed. Some of the languages are very respectful in their own right - Pingpong and Befreak are quite delightful to ponder over, others (out of respect, I wont name them) are not so imaginative. I feel like I've made some decent progress - I've implemented strings, and 2D impure lambda calculus loosely based on Wouter van Oortmerssen's work on false; I think I have variable declaration and use down, and what I consider to be some savvy string manipulation that can also be convenient for numerical work (wouldn't Befunge be SO much nicer if you could somehow turn the befunge code, 24 (which pushes the numbers 2 and then 4 onto the stack, into the NUMBER 24? Perhaps by concatenation?) - which I've based on a variant syntax from Smurf and Joy. The hurdle that I have come across now is not just the inclusion of functions, but the use of functions in library files as well as in the main program file. I've developed two alternatives that do not rely on weird object oriented paradigms like filename.functionname(), etc. The ideas are not perfected, but the main elements are there. Both versions use the entire stack for variables, although this could potentially change if a good method were proposed for regulating functional variable use. I would definitely love your comments on the two ideas. There are two less-appealing options (in my view) which include abolishing defined functions and relying solely on lambda calculus, or treating functions as variables which point to a specific starting point in the code, but I don't feel that either idea extrapolates well into the library-file method of thinking, and all of my undergraduate computer science courses have hammered the idea of modularity so deep into my brain, that after a full-frontal lobotomy, I would probably only be capable of thinking of modular programming. If you have suggestions as to which version you like best and why, any improvements or redesigns you could suggest, or if you think that modular programming is useless and I should go back to the basic alternatives, and lastly if you feel that none of these ideas are any good - please feel free to let me know, either by emailing me personally or by replying to the entire list and starting a lively discussion on the topic. I apologize for the length of this, I'm not known for being terse. ----------------- Plaintext Version ----------------- A functional space is defined as being a single rectangular domain of specified height/width (more on this later...). Contrary to the typical mono-symbolic operator structure of the language, the header info for each functional space has a rigidly defined syntax: #[x,y]**...* (up to x) ** * * * . . . . . . . . . . ***. . . . * (x,y), beginning with the #-sign (down to y) These functional spaces have no predefined names. The variable structure in the language behave as pointers to other pieces of code. Essentially, storing the value of 42 in a variable is equivalent to writing 42 somewhere else in the code - and every variable or value used anywhere in the code except for the stack or input is placed somewhere in the code. By linking a variable to the location of the # sign, when executed, the # sign tells the program that it is now executing a function. The function itself begins with the # sign and proceeds in the [1,0] direction (right) except in the case where the x value is less than or equal to the width of the function - in that instance, it proceeds in the [0,1] or x-direction. The default direction is right, but at the same time, there's a possibility that the header information is longer than the width of the function. While executed as a function, the function behaves as a miniature programming space on a toroid of size [x,y], looping left-right and up-down just like the main program does. It skips over the heading info between # and ] which is not technically part of the function code. Using functions from libraries does not work the same as it does in other interpreted languages. The library file will come with an accompanying directory or table that includes where each functional # sign exists along with the size of the function. When writing the function, instead of the header information being: #[x,y] the programmer would use: $[filename, functionname] A separate "compiling" step exists between writing and executing code - the "compiler" will hopefully check for errors, but possibly more importantly, it will fit the library functions into the ready-made holes. Compiling and compiler are in quotes because it is not compilation in the strict programming sense of the word, but rather a much more loose "organizational" step to make the program fit for interpretation. pros: can use the traditional .txt file format, rectangular domains are simple, easy to use. cons: more development is needed for using library files (doesnt address dependencies, etc), adds overhead in the form of header information - especially when using library files - in which case the size of the original $ header might differ from the "compiled" # header. --------------- Colored Version --------------- A functional space is defined as a single pathwise-connected domain. Because the code is self-modifiable and currently being designed to be run on an interpreter, there isn't any error-checking of this after initialization. Each functional space behaves as a miniature programming space, with left-right and up-down wrapping. External of the code itself, the code is defined by a 4-byte name denoted as FRBG, described by: F = File location, usually 00 R = Red component, 00-FF G = Green component, 00-FF B = Blue component, 00-FF The RGB values describe the 'color' of the function, which is the defining part of the function that sets itself apart from its brethen. There can be a bright red function - FF0000, or a dark blue function - 000020, but again, these are just names. The reason for including the file location component is for using library functions. A library file is registered or loaded into the program and the program assigns it an available number - the first library file is assigned 01, and the last header file that can be loaded would be 255 - only 255 library files are allowed for any file, however library files can, of course, have library files attached to them as well, but those cannot be accessed directly by the original program. To call the bright red function from the 2nd header file, you would execute 02FF0000. To make the file specifier easier to work with, the interpreter maintains a listing of each library file registered or loaded; an operator exists for looking up the number based on the name of the library to make issues more simple. Within the functional space, an operator, for now we'll label it as @ exists for denoting the starting location of the function - as with the main program, it initially proceeds in the [0,1] direction. If it reaches a boundary, it immediately crosses to the opposing wall in the same direction - as if moving on a torus. Additionally, several terminal operators, for now denoted as #, exist - they act as "return" statements that tell the functional code to return to where it came from. Outside of the functional space, when the IP encounters the colored functional space, it skips over the functional space as if it did not exist. The language is still self-modifiable, and to account for this, the syntax for reading and writing code to the program space has been altered. Additionally, as mentioned above, situations could arise where a functional space could be separated into two separate functional spaces - in that case, depending on which side contained the @ starting character. Additionally, although the IP pretends that the function space does not exist when not in the function, the read/write commands for reading/writing to the code space do not - they are still part of the overall layout. "Coloring" is merely an abstraction for a fairly short, simple way of naming functions without wasting instruction space with the names. There is no need to actually display the text as colored, and only one of the planned four file-types to be used actually requires colored code. The first file type would be html, since it has very easy syntax for describing font color, and the character values above 127 are identical to the ones used in the language. The second is composed of 4-byte groupings with the first byte representing the character with the following 3 representing the color. The third is just a compression algorithm performed on the second (probably huffman?). The fourth is a combination of a text file and a bitmap - the text file containing the code, and the bitmap containing the overlaying color map. Library files that are included with the release will probably provide redundancy - at least two of the four file types for each library file. pros: no header syntax for functions, easy to read and tell where function boundaries in 2D exist. cons: no function naming, except through variables (which behave similar to the "plaintext" version above), coloring increases code size, adds additional work for the programmer to color various pieces of code, requires moving away from the standard ascii text format, absolute coordinate system required for self-modifiability. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 14 18:26:39 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1CeFRO-000PfD-Aj; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:22:22 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:22:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.201]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1CeFR6-000Pep-0Z for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:22:04 +0200 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 37so1657082wra for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 08:21:31 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=aWW5SI3WHDfk2G4AVUgFofnMGYKWToOtueJ4sFQ4eoWDd9VbJeAZ+nvbQWPtkJoiZs48lNRfK3c0OaDue+NKiNTZZxT4mtvAdZH/yUfGpNpcnMIrZleE6tVXh2oOQfJcOuFKh6GnrqHWVBxdFIiQoya1YGARahjnTr5iknn2nus= Received: by 10.54.4.40 with SMTP id 40mr1445778wrd; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 08:21:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.28.31 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 08:21:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 08:21:30 -0800 From: Rozencrantz the Sane To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Developing functions for my esoteric language In-Reply-To: <4210.216.154.205.203.1103000453.squirrel@216.154.205.203> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <4210.216.154.205.203.1103000453.squirrel@216.154.205.203> X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rozencrantz@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Not sure I understand you perfectly, but I think I get the basic idea. I definitely prefer the first option, being a staunch supporter of 7 Bit ASCII. Modular programming is all well and good for the Real World, but some of the most interesting esolangs (IMHO) are ones which specifically make modularity difficult (LazyK, Malbolge, HomeSpring) because they focus on a method of program writing so fundamentally different from the standard that it's a damn near psychedelic experience learning to program them. This looks like an interesting development, though, and I hope you have success with your research. Best of Luck ~Rozencrantz -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc]