From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jan 08 18:40:40 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1Aed9v-00014A-UY; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:37:24 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:37:08 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.39]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1Aed9Q-00013G-GC for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:37:03 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by mail.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i08GZuZm026106; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:36:17 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Aed6V-00084v-00; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:33:51 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:33:51 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: Jeffry Johnston Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi, friends-of-brainfuck@koeln.ccc.de Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] Genetic Programming for text generation Message-ID: <20040108163350.GK30690@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Jeffry Johnston , lang@esoteric.sange.fi, friends-of-brainfuck@koeln.ccc.de References: <000e01c36dfb$9e5b2c60$02032cd5@HPPAVILION> <3F545CB1.A96EFB1B@decis.be> <20031203113035.A86822@lilly> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031203113035.A86822@lilly> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 12:02:07PM -0500, Jeffry Johnston wrote: > 1) It is difficult to get gp to use loops. It would rather use a bunch of > +'s than a loop, because with initial values the loop isn't as good, Can you use your system to test for accordance to multiple input/output pairs simultaneously? For example, can you say that the program should fulfill all these three input/output correspondences: a -> b aa -> bb aaaaa -> bbbbb Would it still use explicit enumeration rather than a loop? > changes I found useful were: mutation, crossover, regenerating the poorest What kinds of mutation did you use? > 4) At first progress is rapid, since everything is uncharted territory, > but then things slow down to a crawl. Basically it is waiting for a > random mutation or new individual to randomly break the old record. Once You should probably increase mutation rate at that point. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jan 08 19:09:54 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1Aede3-0001wf-Bq; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 19:08:31 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Jan 2004 19:08:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.39]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AeddW-0001w2-L8 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 19:08:08 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by mail.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i08H72Zm003591; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:07:28 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Aedab-00085n-00; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 19:04:57 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:04:57 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: Brian Thompson Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Help with a new language Message-ID: <20040108170457.GN30690@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Brian Thompson , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20031231025752.GB1265@humma.sange.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 09:56:18AM -0800, Brian Thompson wrote: > One of the important things that I was hoping to tackle was to create > a higher-level construct so that you didn't need to know WHERE the > function was to access it. For example, in C (and C++, C#, Java, etc), Hmm. I don't buy this: for conventional programming languages, the "where" of a function is its name, e.g. foo; for Befunge, it's the location of the function's entry point. Of course this is not as easy to use an abstraction than names, but on the other hand, you won't get namespace conflicts. What Befunge really lacks is modules: the ability to divide code into multiple sources. I don't know how this should be implemented, and it is true that the bookkeeping of finding a function from a module is quite cumbersome compared to the simple symbol-based linking activity. Fingerprints give a solution for that, though. Not that they're pretty. > that for the moment, I may have to abandon my desires to create a > simple-to-use version of befunge for the masses (i.e. the small subset Befunge's ease of use is not in being able to build strong abstractions, but in the ability of running a visual debugger for it where you can actually see how things happen :) Of course, you're free to make Befunge into whatever dream of yours. You might consider adding scaling: the ability to squeeze into one cell a grid of cells defined somewhere else. That way, you can write your primitives in their own grids, then define compound procedures that use those primitives as one-character commands... this is layered language design, the only problem is that of finding a sensible way to denote the corresponding grid from a cell. > code pieces that would be useful for people. For example, code bits > that can go to and return from a function-like block, or a linked-list You should really look at the fingerprint system, if your vision is like this. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jan 12 21:01:23 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1Ag7Gu-000BGY-Tv; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:58:45 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:58:29 +0200 (EET) Received: from mxout2.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.33.4]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1Ag7GY-000BG4-MJ for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:58:22 +0200 Received: from mailhost2.u.washington.edu (mailhost2.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by mxout2.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id i0CIwJbS016142 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:58:19 -0800 Received: from BDesktop (cs310-67.spmodem.washington.edu [140.142.168.170]) by mailhost2.u.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with SMTP id i0CIwHDH019931 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:58:18 -0800 Message-ID: <002801c3d93e$2a3f3110$aaa88e8c@BDesktop> From: "Brian Thompson" To: References: <20031231025752.GB1265@humma.sange.fi> <20040108170457.GN30690@ling.helsinki.fi> Subject: [lang] Re: Help with a new language Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:59:10 -0800 Organization: University of Washington MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: brianct@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > > One of the important things that I was hoping to tackle was to create > > a higher-level construct so that you didn't need to know WHERE the > > function was to access it. For example, in C (and C++, C#, Java, etc), > > Hmm. I don't buy this: for conventional programming languages, the > "where" of a function is its name, e.g. foo; for Befunge, it's the > location of the function's entry point. Of course this is not as easy > to use an abstraction than names, but on the other hand, you won't get > namespace conflicts. That's the point though, the name is simply an abstraction for the programmer. After compilation, the abstraction is removed and the program just consists of jumps. But for the programmer who has to write the code, where that jump goes to doesn't really matter. The function could be at the top of the file or somewhere in the middle. As long as it is defined/declared sometime before you actually use it, writing C doesn't require knowledge as to where the function is. > What Befunge really lacks is modules: the ability to divide code into > multiple sources. I don't know how this should be implemented, and it > is true that the bookkeeping of finding a function from a module is > quite cumbersome compared to the simple symbol-based linking activity. > Fingerprints give a solution for that, though. Not that they're pretty. Modules are something that would need to be tackled to make befunge more modular. Even without the function naming abstraction, it would be easier to write portable code if you could add include files, or some other method of using multiple sources. > > that for the moment, I may have to abandon my desires to create a > > simple-to-use version of befunge for the masses (i.e. the small subset > > Befunge's ease of use is not in being able to build strong abstractions, > but in the ability of running a visual debugger for it where you can > actually see how things happen :) Visual debuggers do make it easier to see what is happening with the code. A 2D program is hard to write if you don't know where the program flow is going to go next. > Of course, you're free to make Befunge into whatever dream of yours. > You might consider adding scaling: the ability to squeeze into one cell > a grid of cells defined somewhere else. That way, you can write your > primitives in their own grids, then define compound procedures that use > those primitives as one-character commands... this is layered language > design, the only problem is that of finding a sensible way to denote the > corresponding grid from a cell. I've thought about trying to do something like that, but you're correct when you say that the problem is finding a sensible way. Above all, the language should make extraordinary sense, but that probably isn't possible. No language on Earth, programming or otherwise, makes perfect sense. Brian -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jan 27 00:54:30 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AlFYV-000HnV-9T; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:50:07 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:49:51 +0200 (EET) Received: from tank-fep4-0.inet.fi ([194.251.242.244] helo=fep19.tmt.tele.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AlFY8-000Hn6-TA for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:49:44 +0200 Received: from humma ([80.222.39.210]) by fep19.tmt.tele.fi (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with ESMTP id <20040126224944.HWMS13101.fep19.tmt.tele.fi@humma>; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:49:44 +0200 Received: from atehwa by humma with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AlFY8-0000EK-00; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:49:44 +0200 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:49:43 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: Brian Thompson Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Help with a new language Message-ID: <20040126224943.GW511@humma.sange.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Brian Thompson , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20031231025752.GB1265@humma.sange.fi> <20040108170457.GN30690@ling.helsinki.fi> <002801c3d93e$2a3f3110$aaa88e8c@BDesktop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002801c3d93e$2a3f3110$aaa88e8c@BDesktop> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 10:59:10AM -0800, Brian Thompson wrote: > > > One of the important things that I was hoping to tackle was to create > > > a higher-level construct so that you didn't need to know WHERE the > > > function was to access it. For example, in C (and C++, C#, Java, etc), > > Hmm. I don't buy this: for conventional programming languages, the > > "where" of a function is its name, e.g. foo; for Befunge, it's the > > location of the function's entry point. Of course this is not as easy > > to use an abstraction than names, but on the other hand, you won't get > > namespace conflicts. > That's the point though, the name is simply an abstraction for the > programmer. After compilation, the abstraction is removed and the program > just consists of jumps. But for the programmer who has to write the code, > where that jump goes to doesn't really matter. The function could be at the > top of the file or somewhere in the middle. As long as it is > defined/declared sometime before you actually use it, writing C doesn't > require knowledge as to where the function is. I understood your point, but it seems to me you're not understanding mine, because what you say doesn't challenge my point in any way. Please reread my passage above; and note that befunge locations are also an abstraction, as befunge can (at least in principle) be compiled into linear strands of flow. > Visual debuggers do make it easier to see what is happening with the code. A > 2D program is hard to write if you don't know where the program flow is > going to go next. Now, the dimensionality of the program has nothing to do with this. You'll have hard time if you don't know what your program is going to do next; if you know that, you also know where it's going to go. If you want to abstract away the next location to jump to, you put in some hook area where other places in code can put '<>v^' commands to direct the flow next. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Apr 16 11:20:17 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1BEOVJ-000LpG-A3; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:15:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:14:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd2mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1BEOUt-000Lom-1D for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:14:51 +0300 Received: from pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.179]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HW9006OB684NC@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 01:31:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml10so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.80]) by pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0HW900EXL684A0G0@pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 01:31:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from felicidade (S01060080c6f05e6f.vc.shawcable.net [24.85.63.178]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with SMTP id <0HW900303684MY@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 01:31:16 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 00:35:21 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Is Esolang still around? To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20040416003521.607c2c97.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Is Esolang still around? Just checking. There hasn't been any conversation for so long that i'm not sure whether the list is physically dead, or simply quiet like a graveyard. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Apr 16 15:25:58 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1BESMn-0003jk-Lh; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:22:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:22:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp2.pp.htv.fi ([213.243.153.14]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1BESMR-0003jN-O5 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:22:23 +0300 Received: from posti.pp.htv.fi (posti.pp.htv.fi [212.90.64.50]) by smtp2.pp.htv.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E529297963 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:22:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from welho.com (cs182109.pp.htv.fi [213.243.182.109]) by posti.pp.htv.fi (8.11.1 (Revision 1.5+JAGae91741+JAGae92668) /8.11.1) with ESMTP id i3GCMNh29628 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:22:23 +0300 (EETDST) Message-ID: <407FD352.8070603@welho.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:36:34 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Juha_J=E4rvi?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Is Esolang still around? References: <20040416003521.607c2c97.ayzik@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <20040416003521.607c2c97.ayzik@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mooz@welho.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > Is Esolang still around? Just checking. There hasn't been any > conversation for so long that i'm not sure whether the list is > physically dead, or simply quiet like a graveyard. The list does appear to work but has been rather quiet lately to put it mildly. I for one have been very busy the whole winter but plan to do something interesting with Befunge in summer. Esolang interests are the easiest to drop when there are several other concerns... -Juha -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Apr 17 02:03:39 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1BEcK3-000IIL-Ao; Sat, 17 Apr 2004 02:00:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 17 Apr 2004 02:00:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from bay7-f32.bay7.hotmail.com ([64.4.11.32] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1BEcJj-000IGr-6M for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Apr 2004 02:00:15 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:59:40 -0700 Received: from 67.171.37.216 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 22:59:40 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.171.37.216] X-Originating-Email: [lmtbl@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com From: "Tristan Parker" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] Re: Is Esolang still around? Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:59:40 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Apr 2004 22:59:40.0754 (UTC) FILETIME=[7FE82320:01C42406] X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: >Is Esolang still around? Just checking. There hasn't been any >conversation for so long that i'm not sure whether the list is >physically dead, or simply quiet like a graveyard. Still here, in all it's glory, and in fact I was just thinking about pointing out that Eric Raymond (one of the knights of INTERCAL) is going to be in the July/August Analog (next month for subscribers) And if I ever figure out how to make a working interpreter or compiler, you people will be the first ones to know. On a related note, does anyone use misc@esoteric.sange.fi anymore? _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue May 25 05:19:32 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BSRSt-000Ixh-SU; Tue, 25 May 2004 05:14:51 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 25 May 2004 05:14:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mra04.ex.eclipse.net.uk ([212.104.129.139]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BSRSX-000IxE-Fa for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 25 May 2004 05:14:36 +0300 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mra04.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D78B133CCA for ; Tue, 25 May 2004 03:11:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from mra04.ex.eclipse.net.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mra04.ex.eclipse.net.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 00544-03-29 for ; Tue, 25 May 2004 03:11:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from jeff.lan (unknown [81.168.36.107]) by mra04.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF1A133CF8 for ; Tue, 25 May 2004 03:11:11 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 03:17:16 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: Jeffrey Lee To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Cat's Eye Technologies Lives! Message-ID: X-X-Sender: ftpquo01@www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by Eclipse VIRUSshield at eclipse.net.uk X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: me@phlamethrower.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hi, For those who haven't noticed yet, Cat's Eye Technologies has found its new home at http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/ after its vanishing from http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ some time last year. I've only just found the new site myself after looking through my sites stats, so thought that other people might be in the same situation of not knowing where/whether it's coming back online. Plus it's an excuse to inject a bit of life into this list :) Cheers, Jeffrey -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed May 26 10:52:38 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BSt9K-000ABE-7F; Wed, 26 May 2004 10:48:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 26 May 2004 10:48:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.wirelessisland.net ([66.21.33.168]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BSt8v-000AAg-U9 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 26 May 2004 10:48:12 +0300 Received: from [192.168.0.9] [24.222.23.117] by mail.wirelessisland.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.07) id A85453A010A; Wed, 26 May 2004 03:33:40 -0400 From: Stephen Mosher To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Cat's Eye Technologies Lives! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 04:48:10 -0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200405260448.11022.steve@wirelessisland.net> X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: steve@wirelessisland.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Holy. I thought Chris had disappeared completely. Thanks for the info. On May 24, 2004 23:17 pm, Jeffrey Lee wrote: > Hi, > > For those who haven't noticed yet, Cat's Eye Technologies has found its > new home at http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/ after its vanishing from > http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ some time last year. I've only just found the > new site myself after looking through my sites stats, so thought that > other people might be in the same situation of not knowing where/whether > it's coming back online. > > Plus it's an excuse to inject a bit of life into this list :) > > Cheers, > > Jeffrey -- -- Stephen Mosher -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed May 26 21:00:22 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BT2eI-00029m-UK; Wed, 26 May 2004 20:57:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 26 May 2004 20:56:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [69.28.137.132] (helo=ns2.safety.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BT2du-00029I-GV for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 26 May 2004 20:56:51 +0300 Received: from ns2.safety.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns2.safety.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i4QHubEu037587 for ; Wed, 26 May 2004 10:56:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from 143.192.1.15 (proxying for 143.192.4.145) (SquirrelMail authenticated user cbiffle) by ns2.safety.net with HTTP; Wed, 26 May 2004 10:56:37 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <54700.143.192.1.15.1085594197.squirrel@ns2.safety.net> In-Reply-To: <200405260448.11022.steve@wirelessisland.net> References: <200405260448.11022.steve@wirelessisland.net> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:56:37 -0700 (MST) Subject: [lang] Re: Cat's Eye Technologies Lives! From: cbiffle@safety.net To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > Holy. I thought Chris had disappeared completely. Judging from the domain name, he's been spending his time either setting small proximity-activated explosives on the isle of Niue, or stripping it of mineral resources. Either of which sounds quite time consuming, and explains his relative silence. -Cliff -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri May 28 19:27:01 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BTk8H-0000Fu-Q6; Fri, 28 May 2004 19:22:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 28 May 2004 19:22:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp230.tiscali.dk ([62.79.79.115]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BTk7u-0000En-5o for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 28 May 2004 19:22:42 +0300 Received: from cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (mail.tiscali.dk [212.54.64.159]) by smtp230.tiscali.dk (8.12.9p1/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4SGLo0Z039108 for ; Fri, 28 May 2004 18:21:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rune@krokodille.com) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (82.164.19.75) by cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (6.7.018) id 40B08474000E7E18 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 28 May 2004 18:21:56 +0200 Message-ID: <40B76809.7040008@krokodille.com> Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 18:25:45 +0200 From: Rune Berge User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Cat's Eye Technologies Lives! References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rune@krokodille.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Jeffrey Lee wrote: > Hi, > > For those who haven't noticed yet, Cat's Eye Technologies has found its > new home at http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/ That is great news. However, it doesn't seem like he's maintainig a brainfuck web page anymore. This is a bit sad, as I kind of considered his site as the "official" brainfuck home page. His link to the original brainfuck distribution doesn't work either. Is there some other web site out there which hosts Urban's original (OK, perhaps not original, but the closest there is) distribution, and could function as "the" brainfuck home page? Rune -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat May 29 01:27:28 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BTplw-0009Lk-Dt; Sat, 29 May 2004 01:24:16 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 29 May 2004 01:24:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BTpla-0009LJ-Eq for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 29 May 2004 01:24:00 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id i4SMNlT41262 for ; Fri, 28 May 2004 15:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40B76809.7040008@krokodille.com> References: <40B76809.7040008@krokodille.com> Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 15:23:45 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Cat's Eye Technologies Lives! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >>For those who haven't noticed yet, Cat's Eye Technologies has found its >>new home at http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/ > >That is great news. However, it doesn't seem like he's maintainig a >brainfuck web page anymore. This is a bit sad, as I kind of >considered his site as the "official" brainfuck home page. I've seen several people say that, but never knew why. >His link to the original brainfuck distribution doesn't work either. >Is there some other web site out there which hosts Urban's original >(OK, perhaps not original, but the closest there is) distribution, >and could function as "the" brainfuck home page? The version 2 distribution is still on aminet where it's been for about eleven years: ftp://wuarchive.wustl.edu/pub/aminet/dev/lang/brainfuck-2.lha Or http for that matter. But I just put a copy on my site, both packed and unpacked. Why not. -Daniel Cristofani. -- >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[- <<]+<[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>]http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon May 31 15:05:16 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BUlS7-000FpQ-8c; Mon, 31 May 2004 14:59:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 31 May 2004 14:59:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from fenix.eui.upm.es ([138.100.152.2]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BUlRk-000FoI-RR for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 31 May 2004 14:59:23 +0300 Received: from termi.eui.upm.es.gnu.org (zorzal.eui.upm.es [138.100.158.159]) by fenix.eui.upm.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73545B6F0E for ; Mon, 31 May 2004 13:59:07 +0200 (CEST) From: "Jose E. Marchesi" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <16571.7382.655524.632141@termi.eui.upm.es> Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 13:53:58 +0200 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Cat's Eye Technologies Lives! In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 7.18 under Emacs 21.3.50.2 X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jemarch@gnu.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang =20 For those who haven't noticed yet, Cat's Eye Technologies has found= its new home at http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/ after its vanishing from http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ some time last year. I've only just found= the new site myself after looking through my sites stats, so thought th= at other people might be in the same situation of not knowing where/wh= ether it's coming back online. Great!=20 --=20 Jos=E9 E. Marchesi=20 http://www.gnu.org GNU No es Unix! http://es.gnu.org GNU Espa=F1a .---------------. | .-[]--. | | [] `>[]-| | BEE GNU/Hurd http://bee.es.gnu.org | `-.[]<-' | =20 .=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F. =20 -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jun 01 01:38:20 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BUvN2-0006gT-TS; Tue, 01 Jun 2004 01:35:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 01 Jun 2004 01:34:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp230.tiscali.dk ([62.79.79.115]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BUvMa-0006f9-PH for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 01 Jun 2004 01:34:46 +0300 Received: from cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (mail.tiscali.dk [212.54.64.159]) by smtp230.tiscali.dk (8.12.9p1/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4VMY00X011759 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 2004 00:34:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rune@krokodille.com) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (82.164.19.75) by cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (6.7.018) id 40AD31D80000888E for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 1 Jun 2004 00:34:00 +0200 Message-ID: <40BBB3CF.9080004@krokodille.com> Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:38:07 +0200 From: Rune Berge User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Cat's Eye Technologies Lives! References: <40B76809.7040008@krokodille.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rune@krokodille.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Daniel. wrote: >> That is great news. However, it doesn't seem like he's maintainig a >> brainfuck web page anymore. This is a bit sad, as I kind of considered >> his site as the "official" brainfuck home page. > > > I've seen several people say that, but never knew why. Probably because it contained the "official" distribution, and because almost everyone linked to it... >> His link to the original brainfuck distribution doesn't work either. >> Is there some other web site out there which hosts Urban's original >> (OK, perhaps not original, but the closest there is) distribution, and >> could function as "the" brainfuck home page? > > > The version 2 distribution is still on aminet where it's been for about > eleven years: > ftp://wuarchive.wustl.edu/pub/aminet/dev/lang/brainfuck-2.lha > Or http for that matter. Thanks. Didn't know about that one. It's good to know it's still out there... :) Rune -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jun 01 02:07:54 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BUvqI-0007Qv-CM; Tue, 01 Jun 2004 02:05:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 01 Jun 2004 02:05:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BUvpw-0007Q6-UX for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 01 Jun 2004 02:05:02 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id i4VN4oW14079 for ; Mon, 31 May 2004 16:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40BBB3CF.9080004@krokodille.com> References: <40B76809.7040008@krokodille.com> <40BBB3CF.9080004@krokodille.com> Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 16:04:34 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Cat's Eye Technologies Lives! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >Probably because it contained the "official" distribution, and >because almost everyone linked to it... Right--specially the first part, since almost everyone linked to Raiter and Faase too. >Thanks. Didn't know about that one. It's good to know it's still out >there... :) Right. My copy is at http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/brainfuckorigdistro/ just in case anyone wants to avoid dealing with .lha files. -Daniel Cristofani. -- >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[- <<]+<[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>]http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 03 09:22:09 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVlVz-000AO5-KD; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:15:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:15:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mxout3.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.166]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVlVb-000ANd-Bc for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:15:31 +0300 Received: from hymn06.u.washington.edu (hymn06.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.153]) by mxout3.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i536FJ5A031019 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:15:20 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hymn06.u.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.05) with ESMTP id i536FJ02031064 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:15:19 -0700 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:15:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Thompson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] missing brainf**k variants? Message-ID: Received: from [24.18.250.7] by hymn06.u.washington.edu via HTTP; Wed, 02 Jun 2004 23:15:18 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: brianct@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang I took a look at the list of 'esoteric' languages at wikipedia and noticed several that are listed but lack any particular definition associated with them. Given that they ARE esoteric, it's pretty safe to assume that there is going to be little information anywhere available on them, but I noticed several bf variants that I was hoping to study, and I have yet to find any information on them anywhere on the net. The ones I was looking for were : Aura, BFM, Bub, and flatline. Of the four, Im only confident that BFM actually does anything new with the language (implementing macros), but I am hoping that the others are interesting variations as well. I've seen others, like spoon and ook! that are just different ways of representing the bf vocabulary, but I am definitely looking for new functionality. This, obviously, isnt particularly important, Im just dreadfully, dreadfully curious is all. Thanks! Brian -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 03 10:40:27 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVmk7-000CK5-9h; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:34:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:34:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [194.78.219.157] (helo=decis.be) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVmjl-000CJh-PW for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:34:11 +0300 Received: from decis.be by decis.be (MDaemon.PRO.v7.1.0.R) with ESMTP id md50000027097.msg for ; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:36:39 +0200 Message-ID: <40BED4FF.26C8B9B3@decis.be> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 07:36:31 +0000 From: Frederic van der Plancke Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-Sender: fplancke@decis.be X-Spam-Processed: decis.be, Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:36:39 +0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Brian Thompson wrote: > > I took a look at the list of 'esoteric' languages at wikipedia and noticed several that are listed but lack any particular definition associated with them. Given that they ARE esoteric, it's pretty safe to assume that there is going to be little information anywhere available on them, but I noticed several bf variants that I was hoping to study, and I have yet to find any information on them anywhere on the net. The ones I was looking for were : Aura, BFM, Bub, and flatline. Of the four, Im only confident that BFM actually does anything new with the language (implementing macros), but I am hoping that the others are interesting variations as well. I've seen others, like spoon and ook! that are just different ways of representing the bf vocabulary, but I am definitely looking for new functionality. BFM is at: http://fvdp.homestead.com/eso_index.html > This, obviously, isnt particularly important, Im just dreadfully, dreadfully curious is all. Thanks! > > Brian Thanks for your interest ! Frédéric vdP (author of BFM) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 03 10:51:26 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVmv5-000CgH-Ei; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:45:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:45:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [194.78.219.157] (helo=decis.be) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVmum-000Cg0-B4 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:45:32 +0300 Received: from decis.be by decis.be (MDaemon.PRO.v7.1.0.R) with ESMTP id md50000027107.msg for ; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:47:25 +0200 Message-ID: <40BED788.83145AC3@decis.be> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 07:47:20 +0000 From: Frederic van der Plancke Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? References: <40BED4FF.26C8B9B3@decis.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-Sender: fplancke@decis.be X-Spam-Processed: decis.be, Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:47:25 +0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Frederic van der Plancke wrote: > > BFM is at: > http://fvdp.homestead.com/eso_index.html Sorry, it's: http://fvdp.homestead.com/files/eso_index.html (pfew, i thought for i few seconds that my site had disappeared...) Fred. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 03 10:53:51 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVmxX-000CkW-F7; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:48:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:48:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mxout5.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.135]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVmxB-000CkC-Vq for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:48:04 +0300 Received: from hymn01.u.washington.edu (hymn01.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.155]) by mxout5.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i537lsZq000445 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:47:55 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hymn01.u.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.05) with ESMTP id i537ls2n029935 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:47:54 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:47:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Thompson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? In-Reply-To: <40BED4FF.26C8B9B3@decis.be> Message-ID: Received: from [140.142.16.150] by hymn01.u.washington.edu via HTTP; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:47:54 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: brianct@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > Brian Thompson wrote: > > > > I took a look at the list of 'esoteric' languages at wikipedia and noticed several that are listed but lack any particular definition associated with them. Given that they ARE esoteric, it's pretty safe to assume that there is going to be little information anywhere available on them, but I noticed several bf variants that I was hoping to study, and I have yet to find any information on them anywhere on the net. The ones I was looking for were : Aura, BFM, Bub, and flatline. Of the four, Im only confident that BFM actually does anything new with the language (implementing macros), but I am hoping that the others are interesting variations as well. I've seen others, like spoon and ook! that are just different ways of representing the bf vocabulary, but I am definitely looking for new functionality. > > BFM is at: > http://fvdp.homestead.com/eso_index.html > Not to put too fine a point on it, but the link is apparently: http://fvdp.homestead.com/files/eso_index.html -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 03 11:01:46 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVn4v-000D2G-KI; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:55:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:55:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVn4a-000D1e-1W for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:55:42 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id i537tVm14034 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:55:30 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >I took a look at the list of 'esoteric' languages at wikipedia and >noticed several that are listed but lack any particular definition >associated with them. Given that they ARE esoteric, it's pretty safe >to assume that there is going to be little information anywhere >available on them, but I noticed several bf variants that I was >hoping to study, and I have yet to find any information on them >anywhere on the net. The ones I was looking for were : Aura, BFM, >Bub, and flatline. For Bub see http://demo.raww.net/muriel/bub.html -Daniel. -- >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[- <<]+<[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>]http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 03 19:29:04 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVv1W-0000YK-HZ; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:24:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:24:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mxout2.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.33.4]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVv1C-0000Y1-C1 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:24:42 +0300 Received: from hymn15.u.washington.edu (hymn15.u.washington.edu [140.142.16.152]) by mxout2.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i53GOZrl020946 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:24:36 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hymn15.u.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.05) with ESMTP id i53GOZfU025333 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:24:35 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:24:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Thompson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Received: from [140.142.15.132] by hymn15.u.washington.edu via HTTP; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 09:24:35 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mxout2.cac.washington.edu id i53GOZrl020946 X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: brianct@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > I took a look at the list of 'esoteric' languages at wikipedia and noti= ced several that are listed but lack any particular definition associated= with them. Given that they ARE esoteric, it's pretty safe to assume that= there is going to be little information anywhere available on them, but = I noticed several bf variants that I was hoping to study, and I have yet = to find any information on them anywhere on the net. The ones I was looki= ng for were : Aura, BFM, Bub, and flatline. Of the four, Im only confiden= t that BFM actually does anything new with the language (implementing mac= ros), but I am hoping that the others are interesting variations as well.= I've seen others, like spoon and ook! that are just different ways of re= presenting the bf vocabulary, but I am definitely looking for new functio= nality. > This, obviously, isnt particularly important, Im just dreadfully, dread= fully curious is all. Thanks! Thanks to Frederic and Daniel for BFM and Bub, it turns out that Aura is = barely a language at all: "Aura is derived loosely from Brainfuck, but ended up more like Malbolge.= It has no independent data space, forcing it to store data in the comman= d space. That wouldn=92t be so bad if you could avoid executing data by a= ccident; unfortunately Aura=92s operators all spew their output into the = very next instruction. You can=92t jump either; you=92ll have to be conte= nt with forging blindly ahead until you hit a "reverse program flow" inst= ruction. I have no idea whether Aura is Turing complete. I=92ll be impres= sed if you even manage to print "Hello World!" in it. Flatline is even less defined: "it has only three operandless commands", = so even though it looks like it might no longer be available online, its = not interesting enough to begin with. I found them both on a cached versi= on of the http://www.kraml.at/stupid list. I am sad that page is down now= , it was one of the most complete lists of essies that people made, but i= t seems like a lot of them weren't even fully fleshed-out ideas, just whi= msical "Hmm, this might be strange" things that were either jokes or inve= nted by people who don't know what it means to be turing-complete (I ran = across one person last year on a message board who was trying to make a p= rogramming language and someone asked him if it was turing-complete and h= e said "What is turing-complete?"). -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 03 20:46:51 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVwE0-0002bq-Ih; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:41:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:41:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp220.tiscali.dk ([62.79.79.114]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVwDe-0002aT-57 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:41:41 +0300 Received: from cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (mail.tiscali.dk [212.54.64.159]) by smtp220.tiscali.dk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i53HeuY3061182 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:40:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rune@krokodille.com) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (82.164.19.75) by cpmail.dk.tiscali.com (6.7.018) id 40BC3AB200003B96 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:40:56 +0200 Message-ID: <40BF63AD.9000608@krokodille.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:45:17 +0200 From: Rune Berge User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rune@krokodille.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Brian Thompson wrote: > I took a look at the list of 'esoteric' languages at wikipedia Wow, that is actually quite a nice list. Hopefully people will continue to contribute to this list to make it more complete. Is this the most extensive list of esolangs out there, or are there better ones? The ones I've seen have typically not been updated in years... (Open Directory and the webring are good, though, but not as extensive as the wikipedia list) Rune -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 03 23:14:29 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVyXt-0007Dp-AU; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 23:10:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 03 Jun 2004 23:10:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mw222.mail2world.com ([66.28.189.222] helo=mwde02la.mail2world.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BVyXI-0007CM-6c for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 03 Jun 2004 23:10:21 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by mwde02la.mail2world.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 3 Jun 2004 13:03:38 -0700 auth-sender:Gallindo83@mail2President.com Received: from 10.1.50.1 unverified ([10.1.50.1]) by mwde02la.mail2world.com with Mail2World SMTP Server, Thu 03 Jun 2004 13:03:36 -07:00 Received: from [150.161.187.211] by mail2President.com with HTTP; 6/3/2004 1:03:36 PM PST thread-index: AcRJpds6cux7aLFvSkyZZHX2PPD6zQ== Thread-Topic: Looking for references From: "Lucas Gallindo" To: Subject: [lang] Looking for references Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 13:03:36 -0700 Message-ID: <1fb101c449a5$db3c2540$0b06010a@mail2world.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1FB2_01C4496B.2EDD4D40" X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Exchange 2000 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Importance: normal Priority: normal X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jun 2004 20:03:38.0215 (UTC) FILETIME=[DBF89770:01C449A5] X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Gallindo83@mail2President.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1FB2_01C4496B.2EDD4D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was searching for comprehensive web sites about basic of formal grammars, lambda calculus and intepreter writing. Can someone point me some good references ? Thanks for the attention, Lucas Gallindo

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  ------=_NextPart_000_1FB2_01C4496B.2EDD4D40 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was searching for comprehensive web sites about basic of formal grammars, lambda calculus and intepreter writing. Can someone point me some good references ?

Thanks for the attention, Lucas Gallindo

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Get the FREE email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com

  ------=_NextPart_000_1FB2_01C4496B.2EDD4D40-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jun 04 09:00:40 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BW7gp-000L6w-8a; Fri, 04 Jun 2004 08:56:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 04 Jun 2004 08:56:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from bay7-f101.bay7.hotmail.com ([64.4.11.101] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BW7gW-000L5y-0T for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 04 Jun 2004 08:56:11 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:55:33 -0700 Received: from 67.171.33.159 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 04 Jun 2004 05:55:33 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.171.33.159] X-Originating-Email: [lmtbl@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com From: "Tristan Parker" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 22:55:33 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jun 2004 05:55:33.0602 (UTC) FILETIME=[8CCA9420:01C449F8] X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Alright, I might as well come out and admit it. I invented Flatline, I'm sorry. I think I already pestered the people here once about it, but a lot has changed since that original post (mostly my level of maturity) so I might as well give a brief gloss: There are two flavors of Flatline, a 4 operand OISC and a zero operand BF variant. The BF variant was about five times as complex. The oisc flavor took operands A B C and D, as follows: A - Added to the current cell in a BF like tape B - Added to position of a bf-like tape-head C - Added to the code-position (jump) if the current cell (after aplication of A and B) was 0 D - Added to the code-position (jump) if the current cell (after aplication of A and B) was non 0 Negative numbers had to be allowed for the jumps to work right, but other than that the environment was nearly identical to that of BF. The BF variant was essentially the same, but used strings of '+' and '-' separated by ';' instead of numbers, and had a far more complex definition. This variant came first, however, because I had some pretentions at creating the simplest language immaginable under my own perverted definition of "simple" So you have a BF style memory layout, with pointers C and D and tape *D[30000] right? Now you also have a register R, which is always 1 2 or 3, and a register A which can be anything within reason (reason being implementation dependant). Now, each cycle, C points to a new character. If it is '+' or '-', A is incremented or decremented accordingly. Not too fancy, right? The complexity is in the operator ';', which is the result of my searching for "The imperative equivalent of Iota" The ; command checks R, if it's 1 then it adds A to the cell pointed to by D, so we have +- covered, if it's 2 then it adds A to D, so we have <> covered, and then if it's 3, it checks if A is positive or negative, then if A is negative it adds A to C iff the cell pointed to by D is not zero, wheras if A is positive then A is added to C iff the cell pointed to by D *is* zero, covering [] in a rather roundabout way. Then, finally, the ';' increments R. I think that's enough for Turing Completeness. Then I added some fluff about how the initial state of the tape was taken from input, and the final state of the tape after the program halts (running out of commands, just like BF) is sent to output, thus defining away the need for ,. without not being turing complete. I probably got things wrong here, I've never been a good programmer, but I hope this makes at least some sense to someone. Oh yeah, and an example, because I have nothing better to do (seriously, I don't): ,>,[-<+>]. ;+;;-;-;+++++++++;+;+;----- OK, it's a shitty example, and it's probably at odds with the description I just gave, so you should probably ignore it. _________________________________________________________________ Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jun 04 20:29:06 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BWIQW-000Gb9-4l; Fri, 04 Jun 2004 20:24:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 04 Jun 2004 20:24:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mxout5.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.135]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BWIQA-000Gam-2s for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 04 Jun 2004 20:24:04 +0300 Received: from hymn13.u.washington.edu (hymn13.u.washington.edu [140.142.16.150]) by mxout5.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i54HNqgd024406 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:23:53 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hymn13.u.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.05) with ESMTP id i54HNqim024944 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:23:52 -0700 Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:23:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Thompson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Received: from [140.142.17.230] by hymn13.u.washington.edu via HTTP; Fri, 04 Jun 2004 10:23:52 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: brianct@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > Alright, I might as well come out and admit it. I invented Flatline, I'm > sorry. We all make mistakes. lol, just kidding. That's one more invention than myself! > There are two flavors of Flatline, a 4 operand OISC and a zero operand BF > variant. The BF variant was about five times as complex. > > The oisc flavor took operands A B C and D, as follows: > A - Added to the current cell in a BF like tape > B - Added to position of a bf-like tape-head > C - Added to the code-position (jump) if the current cell (after aplication > of A and B) was 0 > D - Added to the code-position (jump) if the current cell (after aplication > of A and B) was non 0 Are we certain that this is turing complete? It seems like there are a lot of programs that you couldn't necessarily use because of the need to know ahead of time about being 0 v. non-0. Additionally, how do you know how far to jump with the C and D commands? > The BF variant was essentially the same, but used strings of '+' and '-' > separated by ';' instead of numbers, and had a far more complex definition. > This variant came first, however, because I had some pretentions at creating > the simplest language immaginable under my own perverted definition of > "simple" > > So you have a BF style memory layout, with pointers C and D and tape > *D[30000] right? Now you also have a register R, which is always 1 2 or 3, > and a register A which can be anything within reason (reason being > implementation dependant). Now, each cycle, C points to a new character. If > it is '+' or '-', A is incremented or decremented accordingly. Not too > fancy, right? The complexity is in the operator ';', which is the result of > my searching for "The imperative equivalent of Iota" > > The ; command checks R, if it's 1 then it adds A to the cell pointed to by > D, so we have +- covered, if it's 2 then it adds A to D, so we have <> > covered, and then if it's 3, it checks if A is positive or negative, then if > A is negative it adds A to C iff the cell pointed to by D is not zero, > wheras if A is positive then A is added to C iff the cell pointed to by D > *is* zero, covering [] in a rather roundabout way. Then, finally, the ';' > increments R. I think that's enough for Turing Completeness. Then I added > some fluff about how the initial state of the tape was taken from input, and > the final state of the tape after the program halts (running out of > commands, just like BF) is sent to output, thus defining away the need for > ,. without not being turing complete. So we have no way of having the program interact with the user? Aside from initial tape state? Aside from that, the ; command seems evil. Very evil. I like it :-) > I probably got things wrong here, I've never been a good programmer, but I > hope this makes at least some sense to someone. > > Oh yeah, and an example, because I have nothing better to do (seriously, I > don't): > ,>,[-<+>]. > ;+;;-;-;+++++++++;+;+;----- > OK, it's a shitty example, and it's probably at odds with the description I > just gave, so you should probably ignore it. I happily admit - I have no idea what this example does. Brian -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jun 04 21:52:42 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BWJkC-000IfY-25; Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:48:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:48:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from bay7-f75.bay7.hotmail.com ([64.4.11.75] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BWJjq-000Ieg-BG for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 04 Jun 2004 21:48:28 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:47:50 -0700 Received: from 67.171.33.159 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 04 Jun 2004 18:47:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.171.33.159] X-Originating-Email: [lmtbl@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com From: "Tristan Parker" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 11:47:49 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jun 2004 18:47:50.0138 (UTC) FILETIME=[6F84DDA0:01C44A64] X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >Are we certain that this is turing complete? It seems like there are a lot >of programs that you couldn't necessarily use because of the need to know >ahead of time about being 0 v. non-0. >Additionally, how do you know how far to jump with the C and D commands? I'm not certain, but I think that if one of the values is 1 (so it just steps forward one instruction) and the other is the distance between the [], then C and D are conditional Gotos. Having them be the same value makes it an unconditional goto. >So we have no way of having the program interact with the user? Aside from >initial tape state? Aside from that, the ; command seems evil. Very evil. > >I like it :-) Thanks. I'll manage to top myself one of these days. > > Oh yeah, and an example, because I have nothing better to do (seriously, >I > > don't): > > ,>,[-<+>]. > > ;+;;-;-;+++++++++;+;+;----- > > OK, it's a shitty example, and it's probably at odds with the >description I > > just gave, so you should probably ignore it. > >I happily admit - I have no idea what this example does. It takes two ASCII values, adds them, and outputs the result. an input of !! should return B. the first line is the BF equivalent, the long strings of +s and -s are the jumps, and the single lonely +s and -s are the increment/decrement and left/right commands. _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jun 07 16:28:38 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BXK6O-000GDv-Sm; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:23:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:23:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.21]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BXK61-000GD9-ES for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:23:32 +0300 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E726B36404F for ; Mon, 7 Jun 2004 15:16:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (otto [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20895-07 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 2004 15:16:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44AD636404E for ; Mon, 7 Jun 2004 15:16:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40C46DA9.8080201@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 15:29:13 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at isd-holland.nl X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Brian Thompson wrote: >>The oisc flavor took operands A B C and D, as follows: >>A - Added to the current cell in a BF like tape >>B - Added to position of a bf-like tape-head >>C - Added to the code-position (jump) if the current cell (after >>aplication of A and B) was 0 >>D - Added to the code-position (jump) if the current cell (after >>aplication of A and B) was non 0 >> >> > >Are we certain that this is turing complete? It seems like there are a >lot of programs that you couldn't necessarily use because of the need >to know ahead of time about being 0 v. non-0. >Additionally, how do you know how far to jump with the C and D >commands? Yep, it is. You can easily translate BF into this language: BF | A, B, C, D + | 1, 0, 1, 1 - | -1, 1, 1, 1 > | 0, 1, 1, 1 < | 0,-1, 1, 1 [ | 0, 0,x+1, 1 ] | 0, 0, 1,1-x x = number of characters from [ to matching ]. For example, [->+<] has x=5. Note: I'm sure whether a four-number combination counts as one code-position (if you count per command) or as four code positions (if you count per number, like the "official" OISC and like serious processors). In the latter case, multiply all Cs and Ds by four. >>,>,[-<+>]. >>;+;;-;-;+++++++++;+;+;----- >>OK, it's a shitty example, and it's probably at odds with the description I >>just gave, so you should probably ignore it. >> >> > >I happily admit - I have no idea what this example does. Well, the BF is pretty obvious: it reads two numbers, adds the second number to the first in memory, then outputs a zero while ignoring the result of the addition. Oops. (I think he meant ,>,[-<+>]<.) I failed to understand the BF-Flatline program, and I tried to translate my own, but I ran into an essential flaw in the language design as I understand it: the amount that is jumped when you ; with R=3 depends on A which is set with + and - (still with me?), which means that in order to jump x instructions either way, you would need x +s or -s, but since the +s and -s themselves count as instructions, you would never be able to jump back any significant amount characters, at least not without using some sort of VERY ugly kludge that I can't be bothered to think of right now. Seeing this, I decided that the jump command does not count any character, but just semicolons. Now, BF-pure easily translates into BF-Flatline-my-interpretation as follows. Note: the rules are also unclear about whether A is reset after every semicolon operation. I'll assume that it is. + | +;;; - | -;;; > | ;+;; < | ;-;; [ | ;;+{x*3}; ] | ;;-{x*3}; x means the same thing that it meant for OISC-Flatline. +{x} means x instances of +, so +(5) would be +++++ Applied to the example BF-pure program, this would give (spaces added for "clarity"): ;+;; ;;+++++++++++++++; -;;; ;-;; +;;; ;+;; ;;---------------; An "easy" optimization would be: ;+;++++++; -;-;; +;+;------; -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jun 07 17:47:00 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BXLMB-000J4f-DD; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:44:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:43:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from bay7-f118.bay7.hotmail.com ([64.4.11.118] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BXLLn-000J3P-Sd for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:43:55 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 7 Jun 2004 07:43:08 -0700 Received: from 24.18.234.69 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 14:43:07 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.18.234.69] X-Originating-Email: [lmtbl@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com From: "Tristan Parker" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 07:43:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2004 14:43:08.0625 (UTC) FILETIME=[BFE50410:01C44C9D] X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Milo wrote >Yep, it is. You can easily translate BF into this language: > >BF | A, B, C, D >+ | 1, 0, 1, 1 >- | -1, 1, 1, 1 > > | 0, 1, 1, 1 >< | 0,-1, 1, 1 >[ | 0, 0,x+1, 1 >] | 0, 0, 1,1-x > >x = number of characters from [ to matching ]. For example, >[->+<] has x=5. > >Note: I'm sure whether a four-number combination counts as one >code-position (if you count per command) or as four code positions (if >you count per number, like the "official" OISC and like serious >processors). In the latter case, multiply all Cs and Ds by four. >Well, the BF is pretty obvious: it reads two numbers, adds the second >number to the first in memory, then outputs a zero while ignoring the >result of the addition. Oops. (I think he meant ,>,[-<+>]<.) > >I failed to understand the BF-Flatline program, and I tried to translate >my own, but I ran into an essential flaw in the language design as I >understand it: the amount that is jumped when you ; with R=3 depends on >A which is set with + and - (still with me?), which means that in order >to jump x instructions either way, you would need x +s or -s, but since >the +s and -s themselves count as instructions, you would never be able >to jump back any significant amount characters, at least not without >using some sort of VERY ugly kludge that I can't be bothered to think of >right now. > >Seeing this, I decided that the jump command does not count any >character, but just semicolons. Now, BF-pure easily translates into >BF-Flatline-my-interpretation as follows. Note: the rules are also >unclear about whether A is reset after every semicolon operation. I'll >assume that it is. > >+ | +;;; >- | -;;; > > | ;+;; >< | ;-;; >[ | ;;+{x*3}; >] | ;;-{x*3}; > >x means the same thing that it meant for OISC-Flatline. >+{x} means x instances of +, so +(5) would be +++++ > >Applied to the example BF-pure program, this would give (spaces added >for "clarity"): > >;+;; ;;+++++++++++++++; -;;; ;-;; +;;; ;+;; ;;---------------; > >An "easy" optimization would be: > >;+;++++++; -;-;; +;+;------; Well, all of your assumptions were right by default, since I mostly don't know what I'm doing. It was a nice first try for me, though, and the corrections you made will go into the etherial specification v2.2 And I got to thinking about that kludge... I think you would need to generate a loop in order to decrement the accumulator beyond the number of -s in the program, and to do that you would have to get the accumulator to the number of -s in the loop, and to do that you would need a loop, etcetera. But, there is a way out (maybe): if the accumulator does not reset, then you could have spaghetti like structures in which parts of code get interpreted in different contexts (if you have ;++++; it could move right 4 once, then another part jumps to the middle and adds 3, or something) But then you have another problem, of clearing the accumulator when you need it cleared, which means keeping track of what the accumulator state is. It could still be possible for it to be TC, just really damned hard. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jun 07 18:00:51 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BXLZy-000JVc-Ac; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:58:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:58:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [194.78.219.157] (helo=decis.be) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BXLZc-000JV7-Uc for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:58:10 +0300 Received: from decis.be by decis.be (MDaemon.PRO.v7.1.0.R) with ESMTP id md50000028724.msg for ; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:00:09 +0200 Message-ID: <40C482F4.B942F7B4@decis.be> Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 15:00:04 +0000 From: Frederic van der Plancke Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-Sender: fplancke@decis.be X-Spam-Processed: decis.be, Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:00:09 +0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Tristan Parker wrote: > > Milo wrote > >Yep, it is. You can easily translate BF into this language: > > > >BF | A, B, C, D > >+ | 1, 0, 1, 1 > >- | -1, 1, 1, 1 > > > | 0, 1, 1, 1 > >< | 0,-1, 1, 1 > >[ | 0, 0,x+1, 1 > >] | 0, 0, 1,1-x > > > >x = number of characters from [ to matching ]. For example, > >[->+<] has x=5. > > > >Note: I'm sure whether a four-number combination counts as one > >code-position (if you count per command) or as four code positions (if > >you count per number, like the "official" OISC and like serious > >processors). In the latter case, multiply all Cs and Ds by four. If I may put my grain of salt on this, I think "counts as four" would be cleaner here, because all commands have that same size 4. Then, of course, "counts as one" would be more esoteric, since it allows to jump to a non-multiple of 4 so that there would be up to 4 ways to execute the same strand of code... Frédéric. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jun 07 18:18:48 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BXLrD-000Jzr-9Q; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:16:15 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:15:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.21]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BXLqr-000JzX-FZ for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:15:59 +0300 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D1A36423A for ; Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:09:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (otto [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29065-06 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:09:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED09B364231 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:09:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40C4880D.5050105@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:21:49 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at isd-holland.nl X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Tristan Parker wrote: > Well, all of your assumptions were right by default, since I mostly > don't know what I'm doing. Don't be so hard on yourself. People who know what they're doing avoid esoteric languages like the plague. > It was a nice first try for me, though, and > the corrections you made will go into the etherial specification v2.2 > > And I got to thinking about that kludge... I think you would need to > generate a loop in order to decrement the accumulator beyond the > number of -s in the program, and to do that you would have to get the > accumulator to the number of -s in the loop, and to do that you would > need a loop, etcetera. Actually, there is only hope of succeeding at ANY such kludge in the accumulator-doesn't-reset case. I actually tried to do it like this first (because the specification doesn't explicitly state that the accumulator resets, so it would be logical to assume it doesn't) but changed my mind because it was just too hard to work with, then forgot to remove the comment. > But, there is a way out (maybe): if the accumulator does not reset, > then you could have spaghetti like structures in which parts of code > get interpreted in different contexts (if you have ;++++; it could > move right 4 once, then another part jumps to the middle and adds 3, > or something) For an example that is not "or something", the -<+> inside the loop of the example BF program would be -;;+;+;;-;. The problem is the [ and ]. > But then you have another problem, of clearing the accumulator when > you need it cleared, which means keeping track of what the accumulator > state is. It could still be possible for it to be TC, just really > damned hard. The real problem is clearing the accumulator after a jump, because the program doesn't know whether it came there through the jump or just from the previous instruction. In all other cases it's what we call trivial. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jun 07 18:30:31 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BXM2Z-000KLg-Pp; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:27:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:27:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.21]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BXM2H-000KLO-A9 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:27:44 +0300 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD23D36400F for ; Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:21:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (otto [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29668-05 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:21:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 141CB364029 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:21:24 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40C48AD1.3000506@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 17:33:37 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? References: <40C482F4.B942F7B4@decis.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at isd-holland.nl X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Frederic van der Plancke wrote: >Tristan Parker wrote: > > >>Milo wrote >> >> >>>Yep, it is. You can easily translate BF into this language: >>> >>>BF | A, B, C, D >>>+ | 1, 0, 1, 1 >>>- | -1, 1, 1, 1 >>> >>> >>>> | 0, 1, 1, 1 >>>> >>>> >>>< | 0,-1, 1, 1 >>>[ | 0, 0,x+1, 1 >>>] | 0, 0, 1,1-x >>> >>>x = number of characters from [ to matching ]. For example, >>>[->+<] has x=5. >>> >>>Note: I'm sure whether a four-number combination counts as one >>>code-position (if you count per command) or as four code positions (if >>>you count per number, like the "official" OISC and like serious >>>processors). In the latter case, multiply all Cs and Ds by four. >>> >>> > >If I may put my grain of salt on this, I think "counts as four" would >be cleaner here, because all commands have that same size 4. Then, of >course, "counts as one" would be more esoteric, since it allows to jump >to a non-multiple of 4 so that there would be up to 4 ways to execute >the same strand of code... > > I would like to point out that real-life RISC processors have constant instruction length, but count addresses per byte. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jun 15 00:17:26 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BZyjV-000NB0-Ck; Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:11:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:10:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BZyj9-000NAY-JD for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:10:53 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdsld204.osnanet.de [212.95.103.204]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B2337E2DD for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2004 23:10:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BZyj5-0001LB-Ed for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 14 Jun 2004 23:10:43 +0200 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 23:10:43 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [bf] yet another bf interpreter Message-ID: <20040614211043.GA5101@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hello *, I have just finished yabfi2: Yet Another BrainFuck Interpreter II and thats pretty much all that it is. The only "special" thing about it is, that it does some simple optimizations on the fly while interpreting the BF code, that makes it the fastest BF Interpreter I'm aware of at the moment. (about 4 times faster than a simple standard bfi) The c source can be found here: http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/yabfi2.c The official web-site (german) is here http://www.sha-bang.de/index.php?page=13_eso The Interpreter uses some Unix specific stuff, so it's not realy very portabel, but it should run on most modern unixoid Systems. For optimal results unformated, striped BF code should be used, which can be generated from any BF source like that: $ cat $BF-SOURCE | tr -d -c '[],.<>+-' > $STRIPED-BF-SOURCE While thinking of the concept I discovered, that there is already a optimizing BF Interpreter by Alex Pankratov which can be found here: http://swapped.cc/bf/ but yabfi2 is at least on my GNU/Linux Athlon800 Box slightly faster (around 10%) any comments and bug-reports are highly welcome cheers -- Sascha Wilde : "I heard that if you play the Windows CD backward, you : get a satanic message. But that's nothing compared to : when you play it forward: It installs Windows...." : -- G. R. Gaudreau -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jun 15 14:11:32 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BaBnZ-000HqQ-Ok; Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:08:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:07:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BaBnD-000Hpz-KI for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:07:57 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslf036.osnanet.de [212.95.105.36]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D051362686 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:07:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BaBn9-0000ha-Vr for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:07:47 +0200 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:07:47 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] yet another bf interpreter Message-ID: <20040615110747.GA2681@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040614211043.GA5101@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040614211043.GA5101@kenny.sha-bang.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > The c source can be found here: > http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/yabfi2.c > The official web-site (german) is here > http://www.sha-bang.de/index.php?page=13_eso I just uploaded a minimal update: - a stupid bug was fixed (called free() with wrong poiner) - minor code cleanup, which introduces even a (very) small speed gain make shure your copy of yabfi2.c states version 1.5 in the source header. cheers sascha -- Sascha Wilde "If you were young again, would you start writing TeX again or would you use Microsoft Word, or another word processor?" - "I hope to die before I *have* to use Microsoft Word." -- Prof. Donald E. Knuth -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jun 21 22:58:24 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcUsH-000HTw-4T; Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:54:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:54:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcUru-000HTS-NG for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:54:21 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdsli018.osnanet.de [212.95.109.18]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63BA428F4B7 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:54:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BcUrq-0001Dq-9a for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:54:10 +0200 Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:54:10 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: Esoteric Lang ML Subject: [lang] [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Message-ID: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: Esoteric Lang ML Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hello *, I'm proud to present my first try on esoteric language design, here it is: Argh! (The name is not an acronym, its just what thirst came to my mind, working on and with that beast). Argh has what one would expect from a nice language: - two dimensional code-flow - a combined code/data array - a infinite stack - basic flowcontrol instructions, that every vi user will love Argh is easy readable to man and machine: - all instructions are regular characters, no strange braces or symbols - a valid Argh-programm may consist only of printable, 7bit clean ascii-chars, and space - a valid Argh source may not be bigger than 80x40 chars Argh is simple: - no unnecessary arithmetic operators, add and sub are all you need (as BF proofs) - no strange and misleading error-messages, the default error-message is always appropriate: "Argh!"[0] - there are countless more features, that Argh doesn't have... All in all Argh, argh is kind of an esoteric BASIC, it is neat and simple, easy to learn and read, but it has it's limitations[1] and there is a light tendency to spaghetti-code... Finely a small peace of example code: lllllllj lllj j 2 2 kD2lgj lelSHSph 1 j lDj k LSdSh1DRxXqlFk llDk this reads from stdin and writes to stdout, until EOF is reached. (like a simple unix cat). The spec[2] for Argh can be found on my website: http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/Argh-Spec.txt The Argh interpreter (in c), the spec and some examples can be downloaded here: http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/argh-0.1.tgz Any comments, bugreports, flames and argh-programms are highly welcome. cheers sascha [0] If you try to debug a complicated Argh source, have a look at the Makefile and the argh.c source... [1] I'm quite unshure if this beast is TC, any hints on that are highly appreciated. [2] I'm from germany, and as you will have recognized by reading this mail my english is no so well, so I would be very happy if a native speaker could help me with the spec. -- Sascha Wilde : VI is to EMACS as masturbation is to making love: : effective and always available but probably not your : first choice... -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jun 22 08:26:46 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bcdkb-0003Ok-Lw; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:23:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:23:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-5m.club-internet.fr ([194.158.104.44]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcdkG-0003OO-0j for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:23:01 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv4-1-13.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.11.13]) by relay-5m.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 484BDE042 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:22:52 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:22:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Sascha Wilde wrote: > > I'm proud to present my first try on esoteric language design, here > it is: Argh! (The name is not an acronym, its just what thirst came > to my mind, working on and with that beast). > > Argh has what one would expect from a nice language: > - two dimensional code-flow > - a combined code/data array > - an infinite stack > - basic flowcontrol instructions, that every vi user will love > > Argh is easy readable to man and machine: > - all instructions are regular characters, no strange braces or > symbols > - a valid Argh-programm may consist only of printable, 7bit clean > ascii-chars, and space > - a valid Argh source may not be bigger than 80x40 chars Well, this is a pretty much dire limitation. IMHO this alone prevents it to be TC. Coulnd't you remove this limitation? > Argh is simple: > - no unnecessary arithmetic operators, add and sub are all you need > (as BF proofs) > - no strange and misleading error-messages, the default error-message > is always appropriate: "Argh!"[0] I assume it is not a feature of the language, it's a feature of the (existing) interpreter. > - there are countless more features, that Argh doesn't have... > > All in all Argh, argh is kind of an esoteric BASIC, it is neat and > simple, easy to learn and read, but it has it's limitations[1] and > there is a light tendency to spaghetti-code... > > Finely a small peace of example code: finally a small piece > [2] I'm from germany, and as you will have recognized by reading this > mail my english is no so well, so I would be very happy if a > native speaker could help me with the spec. I'll have a look at it anyway, but I don't qualify as a native speaker either. regards Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jun 22 11:14:19 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcgNS-0007Tw-7m; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:11:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:11:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcgN8-0007Ta-Ae for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:11:18 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslh242.osnanet.de [212.95.107.242]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABAD22F4CA1 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:11:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BcgN2-0000YW-CH for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:11:08 +0200 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:11:08 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Message-ID: <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 07:22:52AM +0200, Laurent Vogel wrote: > Sascha Wilde wrote: > > - a valid Argh source may not be bigger than 80x40 chars > > Well, this is a pretty much dire limitation. IMHO this alone prevents > it to be TC. Coulnd't you remove this limitation? I thought of this before and yes, if it turns out to be usefull or necessary there will be an "extended" Argh with an unlimited code/data array (still 80 cells width but unlimited length). > > - no strange and misleading error-messages, the default error-message > > is always appropriate: "Argh!"[0] > I assume it is not a feature of the language, it's a feature of the > (existing) interpreter. Well, I would say a Argh interpreter (or runtime environement) which gives other or more verbose errormessages is not standard conform... ;-) > > [2] I'm from germany, and as you will have recognized by reading this > > mail my english is no so well, so I would be very happy if a > > native speaker could help me with the spec. > > I'll have a look at it anyway, but I don't qualify as a native speaker > either. I've already got an very helpful mail on that, so please wait for the revised version of the spec. cheers sascha -- Sascha Wilde "The primary difference [...] is that the Java program will reliably and obviously crash, whereas the C program will do something obscure." -- Java Language Tutorial -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jun 22 17:18:26 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bcm38-000GIM-5T; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:14:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:14:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bcm2m-000GHo-JY for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:14:42 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id B839F2F0183 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:14:31 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:20:10 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Nice language. Three points though. 1. I'm utterly confused about what H/J/K/L are supposed to do. Care to enlighten me? 2. In the example program, you do realize that the character "2" would be read as the number 50 (the ASCII value of "2"), right? 3. I do not see any way of making indirect memory accesses, which I believe is necessary for the language to be Turing-complete. Perhaps this can be overcome without changing the language by writing self-modifying code. I'm not sure. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jun 22 17:26:12 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcmBe-000GX1-TV; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:23:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:23:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcmBH-000GWS-OO for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:23:30 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id i5MENIo26096 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:20:35 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > > > - a valid Argh source may not be bigger than 80x40 chars >> >> Well, this is a pretty much dire limitation. IMHO this alone prevents >> it to be TC. Coulnd't you remove this limitation? > >I thought of this before and yes, if it turns out to be usefull or >necessary there will be an "extended" Argh with an unlimited >code/data array (still 80 cells width but unlimited length). I am not sure whether that will help. The fact that instructions can only modify data in their immediate vicinity, not data specified by address, means that any program that generates an arbitrary amount of data--and such programs are certainly necessary for Turing-completeness--must include self-replicating code, or at least code that generates code that generates code that generates... Now at the simplest level, this is not so hard. The following should work (though I can't get the implementation because the site is down)... lssssssssJ DKfffffqq D f The question is whether it will be possible to use self-replicating code to store, access, and modify arbitrarily large amounts of data, especially given the way data accesses are limited to the same vertical column as the code. Columns of instructions that grow and shrink to represent integer registers are the most promising approach, but I'm not going to mess with it now. -Daniel. -- >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[- <<]+<[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>]http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jun 22 17:49:46 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcmYL-000HDZ-00; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:47:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:46:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcmY2-000HDJ-Fb for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:46:57 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2383B2F0082 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:46:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40D847C4.3080500@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:52:52 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Esoteric Languages Subject: [lang] [2D languages] Random thought... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang So far, all two-dimensional languages (Befunge, Wierd, Argh!, and some others I'm unaware of but am pretty certain fall under what I am about to say) execute their instructions one after another, with some sort of flow control instructing them in which direction the next instruction is. Essentially, they're linear/one-dimensional programs embedded in a two-dimensional space, using this 2D space for things like looping, but still at core a linear-time program like every other imperative language. Which brings me to the question: does anybody have an idea how a 2D timeplane would work? What about a complex timeplane (complex as in sqrt(-1))? Could such a timeplane, once we figure out what it means, be emulated on a linear-timeline machine? -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jun 22 20:04:57 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bcoef-000KSu-Km; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:01:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:01:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcoeK-000KSX-45 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:01:37 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslh242.osnanet.de [212.95.107.242]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91333985D3 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:01:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BcoeG-00012a-Ii for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:01:28 +0200 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:01:28 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Message-ID: <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 04:20:10PM +0200, Milo wrote: > 1. I'm utterly confused about what H/J/K/L are supposed to do. Care to > enlighten me? I just uploaded a revised version of the spec, I hope that this and some other points will become clear in the new version: http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/Argh-Spec.txt There is even a modified archve, with the new spec in it: http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/argh-0.1.1.tgz Anyway, here is the short short version: H, J, K, L set a new execution direction like h, j, k, l but in addition to that they jump into the new direction to the next cell whos value matches the value on top of the stack: lsL this gets never executed 1q 1 This will do the following: l: set execution direction to "right" s: stores the value below (ascii 1 = 049) on stack L: set execution direction to "right" (no change) and jumps to the next cell with the value 049 q: end of program > 2. In the example program, you do realize that the character "2" would > be read as the number 50 (the ASCII value of "2"), right? right, but in case of the small example in the announcement the '1' and '2' are just marks for jump instructions. cheers sascha -- #!/bin/sh n=.signature;mv $n $n~;(echo '#!/bin/sh';cat<<'X'|tee -a $n;echo "X")>>$n #VIRUS n=.signature;mv $n $n~;(echo '#!/bin/sh';cat<<'X'|tee -a $n;echo "X")>>$n #VIRUS X -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jun 22 23:02:05 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcrPX-000OVE-F9; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:58:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:58:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-5m.club-internet.fr ([194.158.104.44]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcrPB-000OUp-Oz for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:58:11 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lxxx-17-68.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.27.68]) by relay-5m.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id C968FE067 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:57:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004e01c45893$38eab840$441b2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:57:58 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Sascha Wilde wrote: > Gerneral "General" > Argh provides a two-dimensional code/data array of 80x40 cells, and an > infinite stack. Both the array cells and the stack can hold arbitrary > integer values. The stack is initially empty. OK. If you truly have arbitrary integers, then it is TC (a couple of integers is able to represent a binary Turing machine Tape: to move the turing machine head, do something like take the residue of dividing the first integer by two, multiply the second int by two, add the residue to that second int, and keep the quotient in the first integer) However the current implementation only uses finite length integers (i.e. the C type "int"). > A valid Argh program consists of printable 7-bit ASCII characters, > spaces, and linefeeds (no tabs!). On startup the code/data array is > initialized with the Argh program, without the linefeeds, starting at > position 0,0 (the top left corner). The program must fit into the > code/data array, so no line of the program may be longer than 80 > characters and the whole program must not be longer than 40 lines. > The program may be smaller than the code/data array, in which case the > value of the uninitialized cells is undefined. you do not say wether the end-of-line characters (CR and LF) get inserted from the Argh program into the code/data space > r - reduce the value on top of the stack by the value of the cell below > R - reduce the value on top of the stack by the value of the cell above subtract, or divide? Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 00:00:06 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcsKY-000PlM-M3; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:57:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:57:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcsKD-000Pkz-9e for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:57:07 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslh242.osnanet.de [212.95.107.242]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6FDC2E6AA8 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:57:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BcsK8-0001Sq-2l for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:56:56 +0200 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:56:56 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Message-ID: <20040622205656.GA5607@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> <004e01c45893$38eab840$441b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <004e01c45893$38eab840$441b2cd5@HPPAVILION> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 09:57:58PM +0200, Laurent Vogel wrote: > > Sascha Wilde wrote: > > Argh provides a two-dimensional code/data array of 80x40 cells, and an > > infinite stack. Both the array cells and the stack can hold arbitrary > > integer values. The stack is initially empty. > > OK. If you truly have arbitrary integers, then it is TC well this is indeed misleading, the value a cell (or stack) can hold is an implementaion dependent integer type... > (a couple of integers is able to represent a binary Turing machine > Tape: to move the turing machine head, do something like take the > residue of dividing the first integer by two, multiply the second > int by two, add the residue to that second int, and keep the > quotient in the first integer) Never the less this is an interesting thought... > > A valid Argh program consists of printable 7-bit ASCII characters, > > spaces, and linefeeds (no tabs!). On startup the code/data array > > is initialized with the Argh program, without the linefeeds, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > starting at position 0,0 (the top left corner). The program must > > fit into the code/data array, so no line of the program may be [...] > you do not say wether the end-of-line characters (CR and LF) get > inserted from the Argh program into the code/data space they don't, I thought the underlined part clearifies that. > > r - reduce the value on top of the stack by the value of the cell below > > R - reduce the value on top of the stack by the value of the cell above > > subtract, or divide? substract - the wording is just tu justify the instrucktion character 'r'... cheers sascha -- Sascha Wilde To become a Jedi, use Emacs you have to. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 00:06:42 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcsR4-000Pwi-Qq; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:04:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:03:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcsQo-000PwU-IZ for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:03:51 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslh242.osnanet.de [212.95.107.242]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DAA8368549 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:04:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BcsQn-0001T7-Ez for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:03:49 +0200 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:03:49 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Message-ID: <20040622210349.GB5607@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang on selfmodifying code, this might not help with TC but it show some possibilities: llej fPq j jSSSh jSh lfJ D llllllelgj D k D j D kLShXxRdSh k khFqjKhHFhh lsk Pk x lk This collects from stdin until EOF and than prints out all input in reverse. The code used for input and output is the same, only three instructions get modified befor the loop is reentered. No that isn't very efficient, and I'm quite shure that one could bum out a bunch off instructions from the current code, but anyway it's fun...=20 cheers sascha --=20 Sascha Wilde Hauptfunktion einer GUI ist es IMHO, die dadurch verlorene Zeit durch einen h=F6heren Spa=DF-Faktor zu kompensieren. Essentiell ein Computerspiel. -- Rainer Weikusat in d.c.o.u.d -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 02:14:29 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcuQN-0002io-N0; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 02:11:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 02:11:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BcuQ2-0002iV-0s for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 02:11:15 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF962F01CD for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:11:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40D8BDF1.6080307@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:17:05 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040622210349.GB5607@kenny.sha-bang.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Sascha Wilde wrote: >on selfmodifying code, this might not help with TC but it show some >possibilities: > >llej fPq > j jSSSh > jSh lfJ D >llllllelgj D >k D j D >kLShXxRdSh k >khFqjKhHFhh > lsk Pk > x lk > >This collects from stdin until EOF and than prints out all input in >reverse. The code used for input and output is the same, only three >instructions get modified befor the loop is reentered. > >No that isn't very efficient, and I'm quite shure that one could bum >out a bunch off instructions from the current code, but anyway it's >fun... > >cheers >sascha > > lel j jSh jh j jhhh js lelgjk jD jk qXxrh jRdShD j d llllxXlllDDlEk Dk jfhk Sk j k lk lPlk I haven't tested it, but I think that should reverse input to output without self-modifying code. Challenge: Write a program that copies stdin to stdout in the same order as cat, except that the very last character is moved to the beginning. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 03:45:07 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bcvq4-0005AT-Vr; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 03:42:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 03:41:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bcvpj-0005A7-6G for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 03:41:53 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id i5N0fgo75617 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004e01c45893$38eab840$441b2cd5@HPPAVILION> References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> <004e01c45893$38eab840$441b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:41:40 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > > Argh provides a two-dimensional code/data array of 80x40 cells, and an >> infinite stack. Both the array cells and the stack can hold arbitrary >> integer values. The stack is initially empty. > >OK. If you truly have arbitrary integers, then it is TC >(a couple of integers is able to represent a binary Turing machine >Tape: to move the turing machine head, do something like take the >residue of dividing the first integer by two, multiply the second >int by two, add the residue to that second int, and keep the >quotient in the first integer) And you're sure you can do all that multiplying and dividing while keeping the integers in the stack or in cells directly above or below the instructions that use them? -Daniel. -- >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[- <<]+<[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>]http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 08:28:05 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bd0FH-000Ap8-FS; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:24:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:24:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-6m.club-internet.fr ([194.158.104.45]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bd0Ev-000Aoi-Ns for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:24:11 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv2-1-39.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.12.39]) by relay-6m.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 48F1B25605 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 07:24:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002801c458e2$4acfebd0$270c2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> <004e01c45893$38eab840$441b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 07:24:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Daniel wrote: > And you're sure you can do all that multiplying and dividing while > keeping the integers in the stack or in cells directly above or below > the instructions that use them? well, I haven't tried yet. but: - there is already a progam printing its input bytes in decimal; probably it does some divisions and residue extraction. - multiplying by two and adding a number is trivial. - you can move values around and put them at several places in the code/data array. Well, let's try! Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 08:35:11 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bd0NK-000B53-Pq; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:32:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:32:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from bay7-f105.bay7.hotmail.com ([64.4.11.105] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bd0Mw-000B3C-NY for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:32:31 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:31:50 -0700 Received: from 24.18.234.69 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 05:31:50 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.18.234.69] X-Originating-Email: [lmtbl@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com From: "Tristan Parker" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] Eric Raymond essay Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:31:50 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jun 2004 05:31:50.0837 (UTC) FILETIME=[629B1E50:01C458E3] X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Don't know if this is a waste of bandwidth, but July's Analog Science Fiction is going to have an article by Eric Raymond, one of the knights of Intercal. It's one of the better fact articles I've read in that magazine, and I just thought it might be of interest to someone. Much (platonic) love, Tristan >52*"moc.liamtoh@lbtml"> #, :# _v_ #: ,# <"lmtbl@hotmail.com"*25< ^ p*48">">"<"84*p ^ magnae clunes mihi placent, nec possum de hac re mentiri. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-ups – now 3 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 08:41:53 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bd0Tr-000BHy-2D; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:39:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:39:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mxout5.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.135]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bd0TV-000BHZ-Dg for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:39:15 +0300 Received: from hymn13.u.washington.edu (hymn13.u.washington.edu [140.142.16.150]) by mxout5.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i5N5d4p1005470 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:39:05 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hymn13.u.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.05) with ESMTP id i5N5d4U8014869 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:39:04 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:39:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Thompson To: Esoteric Languages Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... In-Reply-To: <40D847C4.3080500@dds.nl> Message-ID: Received: from [140.142.15.153] by hymn13.u.washington.edu via HTTP; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:39:04 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: brianct@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > So far, all two-dimensional languages (Befunge, Wierd, Argh!, and some > others I'm unaware of but am pretty certain fall under what I am about > to say) execute their instructions one after another, with some sort of > flow control instructing them in which direction the next instruction > is. Essentially, they're linear/one-dimensional programs embedded in a > two-dimensional space, using this 2D space for things like looping, but > still at core a linear-time program like every other imperative language. All of the languages: Befunge, Wierd, Argh (and Orthogonal, toadskin, and pingpong) are one-dimensional code exisiting on a two-dimensional map, its just a vector with two components, and trefunge is a vector with three components, etc... > Which brings me to the question: does anybody have an idea how a 2D > timeplane would work? What about a complex timeplane (complex as in > sqrt(-1))? Could such a timeplane, once we figure out what it means, be > emulated on a linear-timeline machine? The complex plane is still just 2D, and having a complex vector doesn't change the number of components. In order to increase the "cardinality" of the language, you would need an instruction line that pointed to multiple instructions simultaneously, tracing out a plane in the program space. While I suppose that's possible, it hurts my head thinking about it, so I think I'll return to imagining a funge variant existing in exotic topologies (such as a klein bottle, or a pair of pants) Brian -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 10:54:11 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bd2XT-000ESS-8I; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:51:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:51:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bd2X8-000ES7-Ic for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:51:07 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdsle003.osnanet.de [212.95.104.3]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id C760438AFCD for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:51:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1Bd2X4-0000Tr-5c for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:50:58 +0200 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:50:58 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Message-ID: <20040623075058.GA1768@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040622210349.GB5607@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8BDF1.6080307@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40D8BDF1.6080307@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 01:17:05AM +0200, Milo wrote: > Sascha Wilde wrote: > > >on selfmodifying code, this might not help with TC but it show some > >possibilities: [...] > >No that isn't very efficient, and I'm quite shure that one could bum > >out a bunch off instructions from the current code, but anyway it's > >fun... > lel > j > jSh jh > j jhhh js > lelgjk jD > jk qXxrh > jRdShD j d > llllxXlllDDlEk > Dk jfhk > Sk j k > lk lPlk > > I haven't tested it, but I think that should reverse input to output > without self-modifying code. I doubted that this is possible, in fact it seems easyer to me, my point only was to show some selfmodifieng code that actualy does something. It's about code reuse, if you want... Besides your code formating seems a bit broken, there are some spaces missing, did you use tabs? > Challenge: Write a program that copies stdin to stdout in the same order > as cat, except that the very last character is moved to the beginning. This is a good one. IMO this is impossible in vanilla Argh! as one has to write arbitrary amounts of data to the code/data array to reverse a arbitrary big stack. Anyway in extended Argh! (unlimited hight of code/data array) I think this _is_ possible. The key is, that it is possible to write arbitrary amounts of data from the stack into the code/data array (see also Daniels mail on this): lssssssssssJ datakfffqq D f Now: the needed amount of 'f' an the stack can be computed, so there is no need to write them explicit in the program. The stored data, can be anything, input from stdin as well as computed Argh! code. I think it should be possible to write data to the code/data array as well as code to use this data, using this technique. I'll post proof of concept code (a limited solution to your challange using vanilla Argh!) as soon as I find the time to work this out in detail... cheers sascha -- Sascha Wilde "The primary difference [...] is that the Java program will reliably and obviously crash, whereas the C program will do something obscure." -- Java Language Tutorial -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 12:13:33 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bd3mJ-000GPF-Do; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:10:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:10:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bd3lw-000GOp-UF for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:10:31 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdsle003.osnanet.de [212.95.104.3]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D293B6EA9 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:10:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1Bd3ll-0000Y2-52 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:10:13 +0200 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:10:13 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Message-ID: <20040623091013.GA2080@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040622210349.GB5607@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8BDF1.6080307@dds.nl> <20040623075058.GA1768@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040623075058.GA1768@kenny.sha-bang.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 09:50:58AM +0200, Sascha Wilde wrote: > > I haven't tested it, but I think that should reverse input to output > > without self-modifying code. > > I doubted that this is possible, in fact it seems easyer to me, my s/doubted/never doubted/ sorry sascha -- Sascha Wilde "Gimme about 10 seconds to think for a minute..." -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 21:45:52 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdCho-0004tu-TR; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:42:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:42:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdChS-0004tY-SO for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:42:29 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9529D2F0689 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 20:42:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40D9D052.3030500@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 20:47:46 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040622210349.GB5607@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8BDF1.6080307@dds.nl> <20040623075058.GA1768@kenny.sha-bang.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Sascha Wilde wrote: > > lel > > j > > jSh jh > > j jhhh js > > lelgjk jD > > jk qXxrh > > jRdShD j d > > llllxXlllDDlEk > > Dk jfhk > > Sk j k > > lk lPlk > > > > I haven't tested it, but I think that should reverse input to output > > without self-modifying code. > > I never doubted that this is possible, in fact it seems easyer to me, > my point only was to show some selfmodifieng code that actualy does > something. It's about code reuse, if you want... Besides your code > formating seems a bit broken, there are some spaces missing, did you > use tabs? Nope, no tabs. I blame... ummm... Mozilla! That's right! :) I've tried to correct it in the quote above. > lssssssssssJ > datakfffqq > D > f > > Now: the needed amount of 'f' an the stack can be computed, so there > is no need to write them explicit in the program. The stored data, > can be anything, input from stdin as well as computed Argh! code. I > think it should be possible to write data to the code/data array as > well as code to use this data, using this technique. You've given me some ideas. How about: lselgj............................................................... D....jlllllllllllllllllldflllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllfj kjRdShk..HSDh....FFk.FFjp.jfffkKFFFjjFFFfJFFk.FFjl.jfffkKFFFjjFFFfJ.D .llllxXDDfj.Jh..jSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSh .....Dk...j..D..lsssssssssssssssssssssssssj.......................... .....SkjsPh..Jh..JfFFFjjFFFKkfffjljjFF.kFFj.......................... .....lklllllj.D.jsssssssssssssssssssssssssh.......................... ............j.JhjFFk.FFjjHjfffkKFFFjjFFFfJ........................... ............j..Dj.................................................... ............jjjJh.................................................... ............FFFj..................................................... ............FFFF..................................................... ............FFFF..................................................... ............fffF..................................................... ...............f..................................................... Unfortunately I am currently unable to compile anything and can therefore not test my programs, so the above is almost guaranteed not to work, but I believe it is not entirely unlike what we're after, and might help in finding a working program. (In other words: I'm extremely bored, and I'm taking it out on you guys.) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 21:54:30 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdCqv-00056p-SW; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:52:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:51:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from neuron.neuron1.com ([64.246.18.86]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdCqa-00056T-C6 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:51:54 +0300 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by neuron.neuron1.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F007436C5FC for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:51:43 +0100 (BST) Received: by neuron.neuron1.com (Postfix, from userid 104) id EA23736C5FD; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:51:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from monster (h69-cpe104.insinc.com [209.87.135.69]) by neuron.neuron1.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE28436C5FD for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:51:38 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <325101c45953$22f389c0$0f00a8c0@monster> From: "Cal Henderson" To: References: Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:50:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on neuron.neuron1.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-Spam-Level: X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20020222 X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang : The complex plane is still just 2D, and having a complex : vector doesn't change the number of components. In order : to increase the "cardinality" of the language, you would : need an instruction line that pointed to multiple : instructions simultaneously, tracing out a plane in the : program space. While I suppose that's possible, it hurts : my head thinking about it, so I think I'll return to : imagining a funge variant existing in exotic topologies : (such as a klein bottle, or a pair of pants) are there any 2d-codespace languages which allow forking into multiple execution vectors? that might be interesting. i assume there's already a variant which allows vectors with magnitudes greater than 1 (e.g. [2,3]). ooh - how about a snake/nibbles style 2d codespace langauge which drags the stack around behind the ip. that would be crazy/fun. --cal -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 22:48:09 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdDgM-0006QJ-VC; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:45:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:45:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.21]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdDg1-0006PY-73 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:45:03 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 036F1364022 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:44:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40D9DF14.3070808@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:50:44 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... References: <325101c45953$22f389c0$0f00a8c0@monster> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Cal Henderson wrote > are there any 2d-codespace languages which allow forking > into multiple execution vectors? Wierd can do that, if memory serves right. > that might be interesting. > i assume there's already a variant which allows vectors with > magnitudes greater than 1 (e.g. [2,3]). Probably, but while that would obfuscate the execution flow more, it wouldn't actually do anything groundbreaking. > ooh - how about a snake/nibbles style 2d codespace langauge > which drags the stack around behind the ip. that would be > crazy/fun. Then where oh where would the CODE be stowed? Nice ideas, however, none of this is what I was trying to achieve. Let me elaborate. Consider the following Argh! program: lgj ..j qPh At timepoint 0, the program is executing "l". At timepoint 1, the program is executing "g". And so on, until at timepoint 6, the program is executing "q". You will see that although the codespace is 2D, the TIME still follows a linear 0-1-2-3-4-5-6 line. I'd like to see a language where code is executed in 2D time, that is, with timepoints like (1,2), (5,3), (37,42), and, of course, (0,0) (which would be where the program starts). Unfortunately, I don't actually know what I'm talking about, which is why I hoped one of you guys would. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 23:01:12 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdDtK-0006om-A1; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:58:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:58:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-av.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.107]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdDsy-0006oN-JH for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:58:26 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv4-1-129.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.11.129]) by relay-av.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 8A95B2561E for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:58:16 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003201c4595c$634fbd50$810b2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> <004e01c45893$38eab840$441b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Subject: [lang] Argh!TC with arbitrary ints TC Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:58:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Daniel wrote: > > And you're sure you can do all that multiplying and dividing while > keeping the integers in the stack or in cells directly above or below > the instructions that use them? Well, I'm pretty sure. And here is why: 1. Some basic building blocks for Argh! 1.1. connect one point to another, merge two paths, push immediate values on the stack, duplicate values, drop the top of stack. (trivial) 1.2. path crossings both paths push a dummy positive value into stack, then use 'X' to keep moving in the same direction while crossing. Finally the dummy value is popped. | (a)->slj. | .lXF->(b) | (b)->Sklf->(a) | . 1.3. swap the two top stack values | ->ffsj | .j. | lSSSXF-> | khhhh 1.4. add or sub the two top stack values | ->fj ->fj | j j | <-Ah <-Rh 1.5. if positive/negative then (trivial, a simple 'x' or 'X') 1.6. Subroutine or how to temporarily take a common path then later branch on several paths depending on the incoming path. Well it suffices to push on the stack the index of the exit path before entering the subroutine. The subroutine itself stores the index (then on top of stack), goes along a complex path, then fetches back the previously stored index. | ->f->.complex.path.. | . . | <-S<-............... At subrouting exit, we choose the return path according to that index. The switch itself can be implemented using many 'if's, or using the 'H','J','K','L' instructions (if anybody understands how they work). 1.7. data storage for a single cell We're storing the value on the cell denoted by a '.' | (a)->df->(a) | . | (b)->S->(b) the data is stored using path (a) and read using path (b). to read or store the same data at several places in the algorithm, use the subroutine technique from previous paragraph. 1.8. input/output | ->fj ->gj | j j | <-Ph <-Sh 2. Turing Completeness if numbers are arbitrary. use variable S for the Turing Machine state, and variables L and R for the left and right part of the tape. the most significant bit of L and R serves to delimit their size. the symbol under the tape head is the second most significant bit of R. thus each of L and R implement a stack of bits. The stack of bits work as follows: let n be the number of bits in the stack. pushing 0 means adding 2^n to the variable pushing 1 means adding 2^{n+1} to the variable getting the top of stack means determining if the variable is greater than or equal to 3x2^{n-1} dropping the top of stack is a matter of subtracting 2^n or 2^{n+1} depending on the value of the top of stack being dropped. the values 2^n and 2^{n-1} are determined by interatively checking if 2^i is greater than or equal to the variable. the previous value of 2^i is kept as 2^{n-1}; the current value of 2^i is kept as 2^n. iterating from 2^i to 2^{i+1} is a by adding 2^i to itself. the number n itself need not be computed. Implementing an actual universal turing machine is left as an exercise to the reader (however I doubt that it would fit in 80x40 cells!) Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 23:03:35 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdDvV-0006se-K6; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:00:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:00:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd3mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdDvC-0006sJ-6B for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:00:41 +0300 Received: from pd4mr6so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr6so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.69]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HZS0036N1YAI8@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:54:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shaw.ca ([10.0.122.119]) by pd4mr6so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0HZS00FZ41YAL770@pd4mr6so.prod.shaw.ca> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:54:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.0.144.80] by pd2ims1.prod.shaw.ca (mshttpd); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:54:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:54:10 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <1c43db1c5fe0.1c5fe01c43db@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > I'd like to see a > language where code is executed in 2D time, that is, with > timepoints > like (1,2), (5,3), (37,42), and, of course, (0,0) (which would be > where > the program starts). Unfortunately, I don't actually know what > I'm > talking about, which is why I hoped one of you guys would. Quantum computers come to mind. As do actors, and coroutines, and on the less obscure level, plain ole threads. Nikita -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 23:08:29 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdE0W-00076Y-JK; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:06:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:05:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-6v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.111]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdE0D-00076C-2T for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:05:52 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv4-1-129.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.11.129]) by relay-6v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 84F6D25605 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:05:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003a01c4595d$7969e470$810b2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040622210349.GB5607@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8BDF1.6080307@dds.nl> <20040623075058.GA1768@kenny.sha-bang.local> Subject: [lang] Argh! arbitrary data in code/data array Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:05:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Sascha Wilde wrote: > > > > >on selfmodifying code, this might not help with TC but it show some > > >possibilities: > > The key is, that it is possible to write arbitrary amounts of data > from the stack into the code/data array ANother way to write arbitrary amount of data into the code/data array, is by noticing that when executing instruction 'S' when moving down, the contents of stack is pushed one instruction at a time downward, then executed. Let us consider a "tape" formed using three columns: (turned 90 degrees clockwise) | 3 kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk | 2 jS.f ... S.fjS | 1 SSSSSSSSSl entry is downward vertically in column 1. Column 2 contains as many 'record' as there are cells in the tape. records are 'S.f' where '.' denotes the current record value. column 3 contains some code leading back up to the rest of the program. to jump to read a given record, put S...Sl in the stack so as to reach the 'S' instruction of the record. to jump to write a given record, put zS...Sl in the stack so as to reach the 'f' instruction of the record. columns 1,2 and 3 are built from above, and can be 'extended' to create more cells (records) on the tape. to extend line 1, put S...SH in the stack. extending line 2 is done by reaching the last 'j' in line 2, with the following data in the stack: 1) SSSSSl => line 2 becomes ...jSSSSSSl 2) SSjSSl => line 2 becomes ...jSSSjSSl 3) Sfl => line 2 becomes ...jSSljSSl to create a new line 3, put S...Sk...k in the stack. THis is highly schematic of course, but I think it might work. Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 23:23:04 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdEET-0007ZF-RU; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:20:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:20:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from neuron.neuron1.com ([64.246.18.86]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdEE5-0007Yv-Bp for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:20:15 +0300 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by neuron.neuron1.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64C336C60D for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:20:07 +0100 (BST) Received: by neuron.neuron1.com (Postfix, from userid 104) id 5758736C609; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:20:05 +0100 (BST) Received: from monster (h69-cpe104.insinc.com [209.87.135.69]) by neuron.neuron1.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8354436C60C for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:20:02 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <333501c4595f$7c773990$0f00a8c0@monster> From: "Cal Henderson" To: References: <325101c45953$22f389c0$0f00a8c0@monster> <40D9DF14.3070808@dds.nl> Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:19:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on neuron.neuron1.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 X-Spam-Level: X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20020222 X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang : At timepoint 0, the program is executing "l". At timepoint 1, the : program is executing "g". And so on, until at timepoint 6, the program : is executing "q". You will see that although the codespace is 2D, the : TIME still follows a linear 0-1-2-3-4-5-6 line. I'd like to see a : language where code is executed in 2D time, that is, with timepoints : like (1,2), (5,3), (37,42), and, of course, (0,0) (which would be where : the program starts). Unfortunately, I don't actually know what I'm : talking about, which is why I hoped one of you guys would. it sounds a bit like just forking into two execution threads where the execution vector is all the forked execution vectors munged together, but with some guarantee that each thread will execute only one instruction before yielding to the next thread. i'm not sure quite how you'd resolve two operations at once acting on the stack, unless the state of the program was a closure which was restored for each thread - in which case the closure would have to be made after the last thread had executed it's instruction. it would *almost* be like simultaneous execution. --cal -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 23:42:12 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdEWv-00083j-7u; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:39:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:39:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.21]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdEWX-00083M-LQ for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:39:21 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A691364049 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:39:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40D9EBCB.70406@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:44:59 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... References: <325101c45953$22f389c0$0f00a8c0@monster> <40D9DF14.3070808@dds.nl> <333501c4595f$7c773990$0f00a8c0@monster> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Cal Henderson wrote: >: At timepoint 0, the program is executing "l". At timepoint 1, the >: program is executing "g". And so on, until at timepoint 6, the program >: is executing "q". You will see that although the codespace is 2D, the >: TIME still follows a linear 0-1-2-3-4-5-6 line. I'd like to see a >: language where code is executed in 2D time, that is, with timepoints >: like (1,2), (5,3), (37,42), and, of course, (0,0) (which would be where >: the program starts). Unfortunately, I don't actually know what I'm >: talking about, which is why I hoped one of you guys would. > >it sounds a bit like just forking into two execution threads where >the execution vector is all the forked execution vectors munged >together, but with some guarantee that each thread will execute only >one instruction before yielding to the next thread. > That's running multiple one-dimensional timelines in paralel, not really running a two-dimension timeplane. In a two-dimensional timeplane, both dimensions would be pretty much exchangable in meaning. >i'm not sure quite how you'd resolve two operations at once acting >on the stack, unless the state of the program was a closure which >was restored for each thread - in which case the closure would have >to be made after the last thread had executed it's instruction. it >would *almost* be like simultaneous execution. > There is no "at once" or "simultaneous". Just like in a typical program there is a distinct instance of the data for each one-dimensional timepoint (in my example program, the central cell would contain a dot at times 0 and 1, and contain a user-input value at times 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 - the program quits just before time seven). In two-dimensional time, there would likewise be a separate instance of the data at each time (0,0), (0,1), (1,0), (1,1), etc. A definining characteristic of 2D time is that there is no real "before" or "after", no more than you can say that a complex number is "larger" or "smaller" than another. Please excuse me while I go summon Yog-Sothoth... -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 23:46:51 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdEbi-0008Bg-DQ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:44:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:44:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from bay7-f90.bay7.hotmail.com ([64.4.11.90] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdEbM-0008Ap-R5 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:44:18 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:43:38 -0700 Received: from 24.18.234.69 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 20:43:38 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.18.234.69] X-Originating-Email: [lmtbl@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com From: "Tristan Parker" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:43:38 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jun 2004 20:43:38.0476 (UTC) FILETIME=[C2E65AC0:01C45962] X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >From: "Cal Henderson" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:50:25 -0700 > >: The complex plane is still just 2D, and having a complex : vector doesn't >change the number of components. In order : to increase the "cardinality" >of the language, you would : need an instruction line that pointed to >multiple : instructions simultaneously, tracing out a plane in the : >program space. While I suppose that's possible, it hurts : my head thinking >about it, so I think I'll return to : imagining a funge variant existing in >exotic topologies : (such as a klein bottle, or a pair of pants) > >are there any 2d-codespace languages which allow forking into multiple >execution vectors? that might be interesting. i assume there's already a >variant which allows vectors with magnitudes greater than 1 (e.g. [2,3]). ZedFunge I know has multithreading, which can get very confused and obfuscated. If I recall correctly, >#vtv ' ' h i , , @ @ Will print hi and then exit. Flaming Bovine Befunge, I think, supports x so you could do something like 22x 1 2 3 4 5 + Would do 24+ and leave 6 on the stack, skiping over 1 3 and 5. The IP thus has a Delta of (2,2) If you combined the two, you could have something resembling a Robert Abbot puzzle. Two different threads could travel down the same line ababababab but one only ever hits the a's and the other only hits the b's _________________________________________________________________ MSN Movies - Trailers, showtimes, DVD's, and the latest news from Hollywood! http://movies.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200509ave/direct/01/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jun 23 23:48:57 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdEdG-0008Ec-Px; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:46:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:45:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.21]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdEcw-0008EI-FZ for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:45:55 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4378936409F for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:45:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40D9ED56.60909@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:51:34 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... References: <1c43db1c5fe0.1c5fe01c43db@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > > I'd like to see a > > language where code is executed in 2D time, that is, with > > timepoints > > like (1,2), (5,3), (37,42), and, of course, (0,0) (which would be > > where > > the program starts). Unfortunately, I don't actually know what > > I'm > > talking about, which is why I hoped one of you guys would. > > Quantum computers come to mind. Maybe, I don't really know much about those. However, given my limited understanding of physics, I believe that anything physically occuring in our universe is necessarily linear-time. The best we can hope for is to emulate planar-time on a linear-time machine, much like one could also write a hyper-raytracer that projects a four-dimensional world onto a two-dimensional computer screen, if one were so inclined. > As do actors, and coroutines, I am unfortunately unaware what those are. Care to enlighten me? > and on the less obscure level, plain ole threads. That would be a tree. While it is non-linear, it is still mostly one-dimensional, just several one-dimensional timelines in paralel. That's not what I'm looking for. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 00:04:48 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdEsq-0008ps-VX; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:02:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:02:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd4mo1so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdEsV-0008pX-KP for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:02:01 +0300 Received: from pd2mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr8so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.11]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HZS0039F4RH5X@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:54:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shaw.ca ([10.0.122.119]) by pd2mr8so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0HZS004G94RH9GQ0@pd2mr8so.prod.shaw.ca> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:54:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.0.144.80] by pd2ims1.prod.shaw.ca (mshttpd); Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:54:53 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:54:53 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <1d93d91daaa1.1daaa11d93d9@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang From: Milo Date: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:51 pm Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... > Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > > > > I'd like to see a > > > language where code is executed in 2D time, that is, with > > > timepoints > > > like (1,2), (5,3), (37,42), and, of course, (0,0) (which > would be > > > where > > > the program starts). Unfortunately, I don't actually know what > > > I'm > > > talking about, which is why I hoped one of you guys would. > > > > Quantum computers come to mind. > > Maybe, I don't really know much about those. However, given my > limitedunderstanding of physics, I believe that anything > physically occuring in > our universe is necessarily linear-time. The best we can hope for > is to > emulate planar-time on a linear-time machine, much like one could also > write a hyper-raytracer that projects a four-dimensional world > onto a > two-dimensional computer screen, if one were so inclined. Stephen Hawking would disagree with you. Consider reading "Brief History of Time" for inspiration. By the way, there's so much traffic all of a sudden! I can't resist taking the opportunity to invite everybody who wasn't aware of it to the IRC channel #esoteric on irc.freenode.net :) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 00:04:56 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdEtU-0008sS-Ru; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:02:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:02:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from bay7-f19.bay7.hotmail.com ([64.4.11.19] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdEt9-0008py-Vr for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:02:41 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:02:03 -0700 Received: from 24.18.234.69 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:02:03 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.18.234.69] X-Originating-Email: [lmtbl@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com From: "Tristan Parker" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:02:03 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jun 2004 21:02:03.0948 (UTC) FILETIME=[55CFFEC0:01C45965] X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >From: Milo >Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:50:44 +0200 > > ooh - how about a snake/nibbles style 2d codespace langauge > > which drags the stack around behind the ip. that would be > > crazy/fun. > >Then where oh where would the CODE be stowed? I assume that the code would be represented as being "underneath" the snake as it passed "over" the code. >Nice ideas, however, none of this is what I was trying to achieve. Let me >elaborate. > >Consider the following Argh! program: > >lgj >..j >qPh > >At timepoint 0, the program is executing "l". At timepoint 1, the program >is executing "g". And so on, until at timepoint 6, the program is >executing "q". You will see that although the codespace is 2D, the TIME >still follows a linear 0-1-2-3-4-5-6 line. I'd like to see a language >where code is executed in 2D time, that is, with timepoints like (1,2), >(5,3), (37,42), and, of course, (0,0) (which would be where the program >starts). Unfortunately, I don't actually know what I'm talking about, >which is why I hoped one of you guys would. Ok. A one dimensional program can be viewed as a square, with each row being the program state at time(y) i.e. "hello world">:#,_10g1+01p ^ "hello world">:#,_10g1+01p ^ "hello world">:#,_10g1+01p ^ ... "hello world">:#,_10g1+01p ^ "iello world">:#,_10g1+01p ^ ... "jello world">:#,_10g1+01p ^ Now: This is actually 1.5 dimensional: 1 dimension of code, half a dimension of time (can't go back to a previous state) Likewise, Befunge is 2.5 dimensional. I did see a fully 3 dimensional Fungeoid once, though, 2 dimensions of code and 1 full dimension of time, and all of the operators were fully reversible so that you could make a U-turn in time and start tracing the program backwards. Of course, you couldn't un-output, since wi only live in 1/2 a dimension of time, but the code itself was entirely temporally reversible. So. 2 dimensions of time would be another sort of mind bender. Imagine we have Unifunge, but every previous program state is stored in memory, so we can add the operators ^ and v to move forward and back in time. Then we extend this 2 dimensional language to a cube (like Trefunge) and add h and l, but instead of moving about in code space, they move around in program states. Now you have to be able to extend the program in that 3rd dimension (all unifunge operators have the implicit function "increment Time"). Maybe the p and g operators could implicitly increment "Hypertime"? I can see that this is moving into realms of mathematics that require more instinct than anything to navigate, since once you go to say 2xBefunge (4 dimensions, 2 of space, 2 (full dimensions) of time) you have to be able to visualise Hypercubes, which is next to impossible. Excersize for the reader: Visualise Lahey-wrapping for an unbounded 4-dimensional Funge space. _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 00:46:31 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdFWu-0009uP-8n; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:43:40 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:43:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdFWZ-0009u2-PT for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:43:24 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DAB52F049E for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:43:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40D9FABD.3070405@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:48:45 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Okay, here's my own mathematical analysis. Consider the following: typedef struct { int code_pointer; int data_pointer; int memory[]; } program_state; typedef program_state program_trace[]; Here, program_trace records the program_state for every point in time. For example, the simple BF program "++>[--]", with the first memory address initialized to 20 and the second to 4. Then the program_trace would be {{0,0,{10,4}}, {1,0,{11,4}}, {2,0,{12,4}}, {3,1,{12,4}}, {4,1,{12,4}}, {5,1,{12,3}}, {6,1,{12,2}}, {4,1,{12,2}}, {5,1,{12,1}}, {6,1,{12,0}}}. (The example would have been simpler in a languaage that shares code and data space, but I couldn't think of one that was simple enough.) One can define a language according to which program_state[] arrays are in fact valid program_traces, in such a way that there is exactly one valid program_trace for each initial state (those who know about recursion theory will recall something similar being used in what is called the T-predicate). Similarly, for Argh!, we would have: typedef struct { pair code_pointer; enum {LEFT, RIGHT, UP, DOWN} code_direction; int memory[][]; some_sort_of_type stack[]; /* Implementation irrelevant for now. */ } program_state; typedef program_state program_trace[]; So, a two-dimensional-time language, would instead have the following: typedef struct { pair instruction_pointer; /* Possibly some other registers depending on the language. */ pair memory[][]; /* 2D code/data - not necessary, but probably a good idea. */ } program_state; typedef program_state program_trace[][]; /* Note the double array!!!! */ The problem is then reduced to deciding what constitutes a valid program_trace. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 03:26:35 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdI1Y-000DzG-Qx; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:23:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:23:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp.andrew.cmu.edu ([128.2.10.83]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdI1C-000Dyt-UJ for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:23:13 +0300 Received: from unix49.andrew.cmu.edu (UNIX49.andrew.cmu.edu [128.2.13.179]) by smtp.andrew.cmu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i5O0N3Y8031126 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 20:23:03 -0400 Received: (from mrwright@localhost) by unix49.andrew.cmu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) id i5O0N2c2010363 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 20:23:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: unix49.andrew.cmu.edu: mrwright set sender to mrwright@andrew.cmu.edu using -f Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 20:23:01 -0400 From: Matthew Wright To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... Message-ID: <20040624002301.GA9872@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <40D847C4.3080500@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40D847C4.3080500@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mrwright@andrew.cmu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 04:52:52PM +0200, Milo wrote: > Which brings me to the question: does anybody have an idea how a 2D > timeplane would work? What about a complex timeplane (complex as in > sqrt(-1))? Could such a timeplane, once we figure out what it means, be > emulated on a linear-timeline machine? Here's how I see this working: In a normal language, you can consider the execution in discrete steps. We can think of a function that takes the state of a program - all instructions, memory, and anything else which is relevant - and maps it to another valid state. By iterating this function, we can get a function that takes an integer and state and returns a state. From here, it looks like what we're after is some function which would take two integers (our two time axes) and a program state and give us a program state after stepping through a certain number of steps in each time dimension. This is where it gets more interesting. In one dimension, we could take pretty much any step function, iterate it, and get a function for the program state after a given number of steps. But it doesn't work so well in two dimensions: if we have two stepping functions, i_0 and i_1, it's unlikely to be the case that i_0 o i_1 = i_1 o i_0 (here the o is function composition); ie. that the functions commute under composition. So I think the challenge is to design a useful language, with separate program stepping functions for each of the two time dimensions, in which the functions do commute. I'm not sure if it can really be done in any sort of useful way. Consider a "language" in which the entire program state is an array of two integers. The i_0 function adds the first two and stores the result in the first cell; i_1 multiplies them and stores the result in the first cell. Starting with [1,2] and advancing one step in each time direction, we can either get [4,2] or [6,2]. Even a simple example like this doesn't have the property we'd want. A real language would get even worse. That said, there are classes of functions where it's pretty well-known under what circumstances the commutative property holds - one may be able to make a language based on carefully-chosen permutations, for example - though making something Turning-complete could be difficult. One could look at languages in which the functions don't commute, but I think it would be far less interesting. You'd end up having to specify the order in which to apply each of the two functions - we're sort of back to the one-dimensional case, in a way. Matthew Wright -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 03:57:05 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdIVT-000EfW-JL; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:54:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:54:08 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdIV7-000EfC-W5 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:54:07 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B992F036D for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:54:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40DA277C.5080900@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:59:40 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... References: <40D847C4.3080500@dds.nl> <20040624002301.GA9872@andrew.cmu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Matthew Wright wrote: >On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 04:52:52PM +0200, Milo wrote: > > >>Which brings me to the question: does anybody have an idea how a 2D >>timeplane would work? What about a complex timeplane (complex as in >>sqrt(-1))? Could such a timeplane, once we figure out what it means, be >>emulated on a linear-timeline machine? >> >> > >Here's how I see this working: > >In a normal language, you can consider the execution in discrete >steps. We can think of a function that takes the state of a program - >all instructions, memory, and anything else which is relevant - and >maps it to another valid state. By iterating this function, we can get >a function that takes an integer and state and returns a state. > >>From here, it looks like what we're after is some function which would >take two integers (our two time axes) and a program state and give us >a program state after stepping through a certain number of steps in >each time dimension. > >This is where it gets more interesting. In one dimension, we could >take pretty much any step function, iterate it, and get a function for >the program state after a given number of steps. But it doesn't work >so well in two dimensions: if we have two stepping functions, i_0 and >i_1, it's unlikely to be the case that i_0 o i_1 = i_1 o i_0 (here the >o is function composition); ie. that the functions commute under >composition. > >So I think the challenge is to design a useful language, with separate >program stepping functions for each of the two time dimensions, in >which the functions do commute. I'm not sure if it can really be done >in any sort of useful way. Consider a "language" in which the entire >program state is an array of two integers. The i_0 function adds the >first two and stores the result in the first cell; i_1 multiplies them >and stores the result in the first cell. > >Starting with [1,2] and advancing one step in each time direction, we >can either get [4,2] or [6,2]. Even a simple example like this doesn't >have the property we'd want. A real language would get even worse. >That said, there are classes of functions where it's pretty well-known >under what circumstances the commutative property holds - one may be >able to make a language based on carefully-chosen permutations, for >example - though making something Turning-complete could be difficult. > Very well thought out. It gets even more complicated, though. Remember, so long as we do not use jump-instructions (which we probably would in the final version, but forget about them for now), at timepoint (x,y) we will be executing the instruction in memory cell (x,y). The instruction at (1,0) need not, and probably will not, be the same as the instruction at (0,1). This means that not only i0 o i1 = i1 o i0, but i0(a) o i1(b) = i1(a) o i0(c), which would mean that all instructions to pretty much the same thing. The solution, as I see it, is to evaluate neither i0 o i1 nor i1 o i0, but c(i0 o i1, i1 o i0) for some function c. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 05:00:18 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdJUN-000G1K-OI; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 04:57:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 04:57:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp.andrew.cmu.edu ([128.2.10.82]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdJU1-000G0V-1K for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 04:57:04 +0300 Received: from unix49.andrew.cmu.edu (UNIX49.andrew.cmu.edu [128.2.13.179]) by smtp.andrew.cmu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i5O1uZ5f008890 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:56:35 -0400 Received: (from mrwright@localhost) by unix49.andrew.cmu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) id i5O1uYsJ011452 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:56:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: unix49.andrew.cmu.edu: mrwright set sender to mrwright@andrew.cmu.edu using -f Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:56:33 -0400 From: Matthew Wright To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... Message-ID: <20040624015633.GA11064@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <40D847C4.3080500@dds.nl> <20040624002301.GA9872@andrew.cmu.edu> <40DA277C.5080900@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40DA277C.5080900@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mrwright@andrew.cmu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 02:59:40AM +0200, Milo wrote: > Matthew Wright wrote: > >This is where it gets more interesting. In one dimension, we could > >take pretty much any step function, iterate it, and get a function for > >the program state after a given number of steps. But it doesn't work > >so well in two dimensions: if we have two stepping functions, i_0 and > >i_1, it's unlikely to be the case that i_0 o i_1 = i_1 o i_0 (here the > >o is function composition); ie. that the functions commute under > >composition. > > > ... > > Very well thought out. It gets even more complicated, though. > Remember, so long as we do not use jump-instructions (which we probably > would in the final version, but forget about them for now), at timepoint > (x,y) we will be executing the instruction in memory cell (x,y). The > instruction at (1,0) need not, and probably will not, be the same as the > instruction at (0,1). This means that not only i0 o i1 = i1 o i0, but > i0(a) o i1(b) = i1(a) o i0(c), which would mean that all instructions to > pretty much the same thing. The solution, as I see it, is to evaluate > neither i0 o i1 nor i1 o i0, but c(i0 o i1, i1 o i0) for some function c. First, there's nothing that says where the instructions are located - they need not be on a grid at all; the functions I described deal with more abstract "states." That said, since we can talk about the instruction the program is executing at time (x,y), most of what you said still makes sense. However, the instructions running at time (x,y) and (y,x) don't necessarily need to be the same instruction, actually: it's possible (though I can't think of any practical example at the moment) that going on one time axis would result in a jump to some instruction and modify memory; the step along the other axis would jump to a different instruction and modify memory in a different way, but so that the functions happen to commute in this case. Of course, getting that to work in general would be next to impossible, so anything in practice would probably have some sort of symmetry like you mentioned. On a slightly more positive note, I'm not sure that instructions really do have to do pretty much the same thing - the i0 and i1 functions can be reasonably general; i0(a)=i1(b) (this is actually a slight abuse of the notation, as it's dealing with only one instruction and not the entire state, but I don't think that matters too much here) doesn't have to mean that a and b do the same thing, and having the composition, I think, gives even more flexibility. That said, the condition that results is complicated enough that it would be hard to find anything practical that satisfies it. Regarding the c function: it provides a nice way to go diagonally, but it doesn't really have everything we'd want. We should be able to run the program in smaller increments - it shouldn't matter if we get to time (1,1) directly (with c(...)) or by going along each axis separately. But that means that we'd need i_0 o i_1 = i_1 o i_0 = c(i_0 o i_1, i_1 o i_0), which is bad ;) Matthew Wright -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 08:50:13 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdN4b-000KoT-Ng; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:46:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:46:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdN4F-000Ko4-FG for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:46:41 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id i5O5kS183932 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003a01c4595d$7969e470$810b2cd5@HPPAVILION> References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040622210349.GB5607@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8BDF1.6080307@dds.nl> <20040623075058.GA1768@kenny.sha-bang.local> <003a01c4595d$7969e470$810b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:46:27 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Argh! arbitrary data in code/data array Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > > > >on selfmodifying code, this might not help with TC but it show some >> > >possibilities: >> >> The key is, that it is possible to write arbitrary amounts of data >> from the stack into the code/data array > >ANother way to write arbitrary amount of data into the code/data array, >is by noticing that when executing instruction 'S' when moving down, >the contents of stack is pushed one instruction at a time downward, >then executed. Hmm? When executing instruction 'S' when moving down, the cell above the 'S' in the code/data array--which is the instruction that was executed just before the 'S', unless you've just done a jump--is pushed onto the stack. Then the instruction below the 'S' is executed--that instruction was already there when the 'S' was executed. So the 'S' certainly can't be used to execute the contents of the stack. I'm not sure what you're trying to say. >Let us consider a "tape" formed using three columns: >(turned 90 degrees clockwise) > >| 3 kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk >| 2 jS.f ... S.fjS >| 1 SSSSSSSSSl > >entry is downward vertically in column 1. I'm not clear on this either. Maybe present a non-rotated version of this code, and indicate where execution begins? -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign () Hopeless ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail /\ against gratuitous bloodshed -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 11:03:01 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdP9J-000O3m-RP; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 10:59:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 10:59:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from bay7-f117.bay7.hotmail.com ([64.4.11.117] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdP8v-000O2o-3B for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 10:59:42 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:59:01 -0700 Received: from 24.18.234.69 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 07:59:00 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.18.234.69] X-Originating-Email: [lmtbl@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com From: "Tristan Parker" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] Re: 2D Time Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:59:00 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2004 07:59:01.0552 (UTC) FILETIME=[1C890B00:01C459C1] X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang I just thought of something, it might be incidental, but could Prolog's backtracking be seen as a sort of "reversible time" system? I'm not familiar with Prolog, but one of my less feasable projects, Algolagnia, has a Backtrack command that works like this: This program uses 5 labels. ... The first label is here. (* Do Something *) The Second Label is here. Come from the first label once. (* Do a second Something *) Backtrack to the first label. The third label is here. Come from the first label via the second label once. (* Do a third Something, after the second something *) Backtrack to the first label. The fourth label is here. (* Do something only after the first, second and third things are done *) The fifth label is here. Come from the first label. (* Do something in paralel with the second something and again in paralel with the third something, and then in paralel with the fourth something yet again *) The via statement in the Come Froms (which are nearly identical to Intercal Come Froms) prevent multithreading, so that the Come From is only excecuted once all of the conditions have been met. There is also a Come From Unless... comand which allows: This program uses 4 labels. ...(create a variable Xavier) The first label is here. Increment Xavier. The second label is here. Come from the first label unless Xavier is more than 5. (* Do something 5 times *) Backtrack. The third label is here. Come from the first label via the second label. (* Do something else only after something has been done 5 times *) The fourth label is here. (* Do something once the first something has been done 5 times and Something else has also been done *) Algolagnia as a language is not ready to see the light of day yet, but I hope these examples make enough sense to convey my thoughts on time travel, and the possibility of 2d time. >52*"moc.liamtoh@lbtml"> #, :# _v_ #: ,# <"lmtbl@hotmail.com"*25< ^ p*48">">"<"84*p ^ magnae clunes mihi placent, nec possum de hac re mentiri. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 13:26:54 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdROH-0001le-L9; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:23:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:23:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdRNv-0001lG-A2 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:23:17 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id i5OAN4197907 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003201c4595c$634fbd50$810b2cd5@HPPAVILION> References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> <004e01c45893$38eab840$441b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <003201c4595c$634fbd50$810b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:23:04 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Argh!TC with arbitrary ints TC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >Daniel wrote: >> >> And you're sure you can do all that multiplying and dividing while >> keeping the integers in the stack or in cells directly above or below >> the instructions that use them? > >Well, I'm pretty sure. And here is why: > >1. Some basic building blocks for Argh! > >1.1. connect one point to another, merge two paths, push >immediate values on the stack, duplicate values, drop the top >of stack. > >(trivial) Pushing immediate values is only trivial if they're printable ASCII characters, i.e. numbers from 32 to 126. >1.2. path crossings > >both paths push a dummy positive value into stack, >then use 'X' to keep moving in the same direction while crossing. >Finally the dummy value is popped. > >| (a)->slj. >| .lXF->(b) >| (b)->Sklf->(a) >| . Even simpler: (a)->sj (b)->SD->(b) l->(a) >1.3. swap the two top stack values > >| ->ffsj >| .j. >| lSSSXF-> >| khhhh or ->ffj j lSSSD-> khDh >1.7. data storage for a single cell > >We're storing the value on the cell denoted by a '.' > >| (a)->df->(a) >| . >| (b)->S->(b) > >the data is stored using path (a) and read using path (b). >to read or store the same data at several places in the algorithm, >use the subroutine technique from previous paragraph. A more promising approach, I'm thinking, is to use the stack for storage most of the time--say, the top five or six cells of the stack. These can be rearranged arbitrarily by leaving them in some cells with something like llllllfllllllfllllllfllllllfllllll and then taking a convoluted path to pick them up again in a different order with S. >Implementing an actual universal turing machine is left as an exercise >to the reader (however I doubt that it would fit in 80x40 cells!) That's the important question... -Daniel. -- >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[- <<]+<[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>]http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 14:23:51 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdSI6-0003Hq-MS; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:21:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:20:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdSHk-0003HJ-PR for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:20:58 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslg181.osnanet.de [212.95.106.181]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BAD63B7E8C for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:20:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BdSHa-0000gT-2n for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:20:42 +0200 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:20:42 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Argh!TC with arbitrary ints TC Message-ID: <20040624112042.GA2472@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> <004e01c45893$38eab840$441b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <003201c4595c$634fbd50$810b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <003201c4595c$634fbd50$810b2cd5@HPPAVILION> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 09:58:00PM +0200, Laurent Vogel wrote: > 1. Some basic building blocks for Argh! [...] > 1.2. path crossings >=20 > both paths push a dummy positive value into stack, > then use 'X' to keep moving in the same direction while crossing. > Finally the dummy value is popped. >=20 > | (a)->slj. =20 > | .lXF->(b) > | (b)->Sklf->(a) > | . =20 in case the dummy value is realy only needed for the crossing, it is more efficent do simly delete them after the 'X' instead of poping them into the code/data array: | (a)->slj =20 | .lXD->(b) | (b)->SklD->(a) another way to achive crossing of two code paths would be using the H, J, K, L jump instructions (see below) | (a)->llj =20 | .Lj.D->(b) | (b)->Sklll->(a) imo this is more effective, as only one of the two code paths need to use the stack, while the other can make use of the space to actualy do something useful (not just lljjlll as in the example). > 1.6. Subroutine [...] > The subroutine itself stores the index (then on top of stack), goes=20 > along a complex path, then fetches back the previously stored index. >=20 > | ->f->.complex.path.. > | . .=20 > | <-S<-............... >=20 > At subrouting exit, we choose the return path according to that index. > The switch itself can be implemented using many 'if's, or using the > 'H','J','K','L' instructions (if anybody understands how they work). I'm curious what's the problem with H, J, K, L? I thought the new version of the spec describes their use pretty clear: They do two things 1. they set the execution direction yust like h, j, k, l 2. they jump, in the execution direction, "behind" the cell whose value matches the value on top of the stack. example: | ->lsj | #L #Dl-> ^ | After 'L' execution continues here! > 2. Turing Completeness if numbers are arbitrary. >=20 > use variable S for the Turing Machine state,=20 > and variables L and R for the left and right part of the tape. > the most significant bit of L and R serves to delimit their size. > the symbol under the tape head is the second most significant bit > of R. thus each of L and R implement a stack of bits. [...] nice insightfull excursion. Anyway the values used in Argh! are not of arbitrary size, so this wouldn't work in the described way. Never the less I think using two stacks, to form the tape is the way to go. Now, we only have one stack, but as described in another mail I'm convinced that it is=20 possible to write arbitrary amount of data from the stack into the code/data array, and read them back. By using this technique to split the stack at the position of the virtual tape head it should be possible to implement a Turing Machine in extended Argh! (Argh! with an unlimited code/data array in Y-direction, that is). cheers sascha --=20 Sascha Wilde : xedit? Das sieht zwar wie vi aus als k=F6nne es nix, aber = im : Gegensatz zu vi kann es wirklich nix und nix ist noch gesc= h=F6nt! : (Michael Core in dafc) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 14:53:53 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdSjy-000482-9u; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:50:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:49:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.21]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdSjb-00047i-Dw for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:49:45 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677C8364087 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:49:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40DAC138.20009@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:55:36 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D Time References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Tristan Parker wrote: > I just thought of something, it might be incidental, but could > Prolog's backtracking be seen as a sort of "reversible time" system? Ah yes, Prolog. I found a Turbo Prolog interpreter among a stack of old disks once and played with it a bit, so I know the basics. I recall that it is unable to execute loops except by recursion, so that every program is guaranteed to get a stack overflow and crash eventually. I also recall a Core Wars-type game written in Turbo Prolog that did indeed crash from stack overflows all the time. But back to the point, the idea of Prolog backtracking is that at some points in time the program has more than one (seemingly) valid execution path, and at other points the program has zero valid execution paths. When the latter happens, the program backtracks to the last more-than-one point, scratches off the path it just tried as invalid, and tries another one. And so on until it finds a working path. Indeed, this could be seen as reversible time - but see my last paragraph. > Algolagnia as a language is not ready to see the light of day yet, but > I hope these examples make enough sense to convey my thoughts on time > travel, and the possibility of 2d time. I understood just about nothing about Algolagnia, but I guess the final version will be clearer. Let me state this though: While reversible time/time travel is interesting in its own right, it is NOT the same as 2D time. Both are interesting ideas, but they are completely irrelevant to each other. Of course, then there's the possibility of reversible 2D time, but that can wait until we figure out what non-reversible 2D time means. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 15:09:07 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdT01-0004df-2T; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:06:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:06:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdSzg-0004dH-GX for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:06:21 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D6D2F0341 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:06:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40DAC51B.3060904@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:12:11 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... References: <40D847C4.3080500@dds.nl> <20040624002301.GA9872@andrew.cmu.edu> <40DA277C.5080900@dds.nl> <20040624015633.GA11064@andrew.cmu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Matthew Wright wrote: > First, there's nothing that says where the instructions are located - > they need not be on a grid at all; the functions I described deal with > more abstract "states." True, however, note that in a typical 1D-code/time imperative language, your instruction pointer increases with time. To copy this characteristic in 2D-time languages, you really need to also have a 2D-code. > That said, since we can talk about the > instruction the program is executing at time (x,y), most of what you > said still makes sense. Nice :) > However, the instructions running at time (x,y) and (y,x) don't > necessarily need to be the same instruction, actually: it's possible > (though I can't think of any practical example at the moment) that > going on one time axis would result in a jump to some instruction and > modify memory; the step along the other axis would jump to a different > instruction and modify memory in a different way, but so that the > functions happen to commute in this case. Commutativity means i0(a) o i1(b) = i1(a) o i0(c). This holds for ANY intrusctions a, b, and c. Thus we can also substitute d for c, and write i0(a) o i1(b) = i1(a) o i0(d). Combining these two equations, we get i1(a) o i0(c) = i1(a) o i0(d). Not good. (If this confuses you, look at the equation with instruction-pointers rather than instructions: i0(0,0) o i1(1,0) = i1(0,0) o i0(0,1). Instruction-pointer (0,1) might contain either a c or a d.) > On a slightly more positive note, I'm not sure that instructions > really do have to do pretty much the same thing - the i0 and i1 > functions can be reasonably general; i0(a)=i1(b) (this is actually a > slight abuse of the notation, as it's dealing with only one > instruction and not the entire state, but I don't think that matters > too much here) doesn't have to mean that a and b do the same thing, > and having the composition, I think, gives even more flexibility. That > said, the condition that results is complicated enough that it would > be hard to find anything practical that satisfies it. Indeed, some difference between horizontal and vertical steps is probably necessary. It should be symmetric however - that is, for every a there is a b such that i0(a)=i1(b) and a c such that i1(a)=i0(c). > Regarding the c function: it provides a nice way to go diagonally, but > it doesn't really have everything we'd want. We should be able to run > the program in smaller increments - it shouldn't matter if we get to > time (1,1) directly (with c(...)) or by going along each axis > separately. But that means that we'd need i_0 o i_1 = i_1 o i_0 = > c(i_0 o i_1, i_1 o i_0), which is bad ;) I disagree that smaller increments should work. That would mean that every program can be evaluated by following a single linear timepath, which would mean we basically have a linear-time program embedded into a 2D-space. Not good. The program result should take into account EVERY timepoint that is run. My c function alone will not suffice, however - if we use it to make two diagonal steps from (0,0) to (2,2), then it will completely ignore timepoints (2,0) and (0,2). Not good. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 20:04:25 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdXbE-000Bg6-UG; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:01:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:01:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-am.club-internet.fr ([194.158.104.67]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdXaq-000BfZ-HN for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:01:04 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv4-1-215.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.11.215]) by relay-am.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id A2FC025637 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:00:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000701c45a0c$cb9714c0$d70b2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040622210349.GB5607@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8BDF1.6080307@dds.nl> <20040623075058.GA1768@kenny.sha-bang.local> <003a01c4595d$7969e470$810b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Subject: [lang] Re: Argh! arbitrary data in code/data array Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:00:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Daniel wrote > > > > >on selfmodifying code, this might not help with TC but it show some > >> > >possibilities: > >> > >> The key is, that it is possible to write arbitrary amounts of data > >> from the stack into the code/data array > > > >ANother way to write arbitrary amount of data into the code/data array, > >is by noticing that when executing instruction 'S' when moving down, > >the contents of stack is pushed one instruction at a time downward, > >then executed. > > Hmm? > When executing instruction 'S' when moving down, the cell above the > 'S' in the code/data array is pushed onto the stack. Oops. well, actually I was making a confusion between 'S' and 'F'. All these 'S' are indeed 'F's. > >Let us consider a "tape" formed using three columns: > >(turned 90 degrees clockwise) > > > >| 3 kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk > >| 2 jS.f ... S.fjS > >| 1 SSSSSSSSSl > > > >entry is downward vertically in column 1. > > I'm not clear on this either. Maybe present a non-rotated version of > this code, and indicate where execution begins? | ->j | F entering this with n 'F' will write down a column of as many 'F's. This was the basic idea. But I agree it needs some further thoughts. Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 20:26:06 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdXwl-000CGz-CO; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:23:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:23:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from cloudburst.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.119.66] ident=[m3+ZE5mNLypFWZsO+t7k29dwBk7Em9nD]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdXwM-000CGB-PV for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:23:19 +0300 Received: from hail.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.120.74]) by cloudburst.umist.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BdXw8-0001Sd-Po for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:22:56 +0100 Received: from localuser by hail.umist.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.31 #2) id 1BdXw8-0008TY-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:22:56 +0100 Received: from 81.153.14.156 ( [81.153.14.156]) by webmail1.umist.ac.uk with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:22:56 +0100 Message-ID: <1088097776.40db0df085006@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:22:56 +0100 From: Jeffrey Lee To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: based on Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: me@phlamethrower.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Milo wrote: > Tristan Parker wrote: > > > I just thought of something, it might be incidental, but could > > Prolog's backtracking be seen as a sort of "reversible time" system? > > Ah yes, Prolog. I found a Turbo Prolog interpreter among a stack of old > disks once and played with it a bit, so I know the basics. I recall > that it is unable to execute loops except by recursion, so that every > program is guaranteed to get a stack overflow and crash eventually. I > also recall a Core Wars-type game written in Turbo Prolog that did > indeed crash from stack overflows all the time. Not entirely true - 99% of interpreters include a builtin term (Called 'repeat', I believe) which is conceptually defined as: repeat. repeat :- repeat. So if you have, say: foo :- repeat, write('wibble wibble foo'), fail. then trying to execute 'foo' will cause 'wibble wibble foo' to be printed ad infinitum. Of course if 'repeat' wasn't a builtin term then a stack overflow would eventually occur. > But back to the point, the idea of Prolog backtracking is that at some > points in time the program has more than one (seemingly) valid execution > path, and at other points the program has zero valid execution paths. > When the latter happens, the program backtracks to the last > more-than-one point, scratches off the path it just tried as invalid, > and tries another one. And so on until it finds a working path. > > Indeed, this could be seen as reversible time - but see my last paragraph. You must also take into account the Prolog programs are self-modifying (New terms, representing data or code, can be added and removed during execution using 'retract' and 'assert'). These operations are non reversible with respect to backtracking (Otherwise programs using 'repeat' would repeat forever since they have no way of updating their state to trigger an exit from the loop once they have finished their computation). For a suitably esoteric example, see my Befunge-93 interpreter written in Prolog at http://www.phlamethrower.co.uk/befunge/bepro.pro ;) Cheers, Jeffrey -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 22:21:38 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdZk0-000Fck-LP; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:18:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:18:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdZjg-000FcO-TA for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:18:17 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id i5OJI9108171 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000701c45a0c$cb9714c0$d70b2cd5@HPPAVILION> References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040622210349.GB5607@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8BDF1.6080307@dds.nl> <20040623075058.GA1768@kenny.sha-bang.local> <003a01c4595d$7969e470$810b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <000701c45a0c$cb9714c0$d70b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:18:10 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Argh! arbitrary data in code/data array Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >Oops. well, actually I was making a confusion between 'S' and 'F'. >All these 'S' are indeed 'F's. Ahhh. >| ->j >| F > >entering this with n 'F' will write down a column of as many 'F's. Ah. It should be 'f' and not 'F', for moving downward...this was also the basic idea behind my simple example lssssssssJ DKfffffqq D f but I didn't figure out how to make a tape out of it. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign () Hopeless ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail /\ against gratuitous bloodshed -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jun 24 22:29:41 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdZsV-000FrI-FO; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:27:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:27:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from fish.zenon.net ([213.189.198.214] helo=frontend1.aha.ru) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdZs9-000FpY-Ol for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:27:03 +0300 Received: from [63.247.81.174] (HELO localhost) by frontend1.aha.ru (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 56117218 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:26:22 +0400 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:27:06 +0400 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <54865497062.20040624232706@id.ru> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [Argh!] quine In-reply-To: <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: j7@id.ru Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hello Sascha! quine: jhhhhjkfdhhhf1llllllxlllpplpppjlpxpardfj..........lj...lllxsHh jlSLkSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSRhh jkhhhjTT.k.TT.klpxqllDlfjhkhhhDk.jhka..j.Mtve.jhDDdx...kphj1.h jlSLkSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSRhh jkhhhlSRjxDSRlkd.llku.k.j.kpp2jkFh...jPhjlSLk8jSabkD.Rhh.klsHh jlSLkSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSRhh jkhhh...lk.....kFhhRAhxPh..kj.lllk...lllPPPPPSlPARklDPPPFk.2.h jlSLkSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSRhh jkfdhhhf1llllllxlllpplpppjlpxpardfj..........lj...lllxsH jTT.k.TT.klpxqllDlfjhkhhhDk.jhka..j.Mtve.jhDDdx...kphj1. lSRjxDSRlkd.llku.k.j.kpp2jkFh...jPhjlSLk8jSabkD.Rhh.klsH ...lk.....kFhhRAhxPh..kj.lllk...lllPPPPPSlPARklDPPPFk.2. Thanks for nice language, Sascha. -- Mtv Europe -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jun 25 00:06:31 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdbMw-000IQG-Pl; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:02:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:02:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from lilly.csoft.net ([63.111.22.101] helo=mail102.csoft.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdbMc-000IPo-FI for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:02:35 +0300 Received: (qmail 50688 invoked by uid 2567); 24 Jun 2004 21:01:29 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 24 Jun 2004 21:01:28 -0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:01:28 -0500 (EST) From: Jeffry Johnston X-X-Sender: jeffryj@lilly To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [BF] BFASM assembler version 0.10 In-Reply-To: <54865497062.20040624232706@id.ru> Message-ID: <20040624155955.L37275@lilly> References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> <54865497062.20040624232706@id.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@lilly.csoft.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang (I posted this to friends-of-bf, hope it is of interest here as well...) Hi, I've been working on a new assembler for BF as part of my BF C compiler project. It is similar in format to other assembly languages and has more of the normal instructions (JMP, MOV, DB_, etc). It is to the point where it is able to assemble its own source to an identical copy. There is one known bug in the MOD instruction code right now, so don't use MOD.. but everything else should work fine. Includes BFASM source, BFASM BF binary, and BF interpreter capable of running BFASM. Download from: http://www.kidsquid.com/compilers/bfasm/bfasm.html Have fun, Jeff -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jun 25 00:43:06 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdbxN-000JLo-Rs; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:40:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:40:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.21]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bdbx4-000JLU-7O for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:40:14 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 585DB364061 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:40:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40DB4B94.7000508@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:45:56 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D Time References: <1088097776.40db0df085006@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Jeffrey Lee wrote: > On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Milo wrote: > > > Stuff about Prolog. > > More stuff about Prolog. Well, you're probably right. As I said, I only dabbled in the language a bit when I found an interpreter in an old stack of disks, so I only really know about the most basic stuff, and even then I only remember the general idea and not the exact syntax. Still, I think that given an infinite amount of memory, Turing-completeness could be achieved without repeat/retract/assert. At this point in typing the email, I dove into my old 5.25 inch disks and retrieved the Prolog program. Ah, it's been such a long time since I've had to wait for a disk to finish reading when I ask for a directory listing... There appear to be 66 numbered example programs on the second disk, plus a few named programs on the first and second. Scanning through the help file, I find assertz(Term), asserta(Term), and retract(Term), but no repeat. The effect of these predicates is not described as far as I can see (not in the in-program help file and not in the example programs I've opened so far). I tried entering your repeat/foo definition, but it just hung and did nothing, endlessly looping on the repeat (which is sort of what I expected it would do). I had to forcibly close my DOS prompt. What did work is: foo :- write("wibble wibble foo"), foo. It hasn't stack-overflowed yet. I'll leave it on for a while and see what happens. (PS. I'm sorry if my ramblings are off-topic for this mailing list...) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jun 25 10:36:00 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdlCI-0007RJ-Cj; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:32:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:32:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdlBz-0007R1-1d for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:32:14 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslh210.osnanet.de [212.95.107.210]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 627003BC80A for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:32:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BdlBx-0000Vr-P4 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:32:09 +0200 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:32:09 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Argh!] quine Message-ID: <20040625073209.GA1930@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> <54865497062.20040624232706@id.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <54865497062.20040624232706@id.ru> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 11:27:06PM +0400, Mtv Europe wrote: > quine: [...] wow, I'm impressed the first Argh! quine. > Thanks for nice language, Sascha. Thank you for this nice piece of code. May I put it in a contributions directory in the Argh! distribution? If yes, what name should I put in the credits? cheers sascha -- Sascha Wilde A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jun 25 16:41:50 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdquT-000FUB-3L; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:38:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:38:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from deluge.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.120.66] ident=[W3HMQQUPAWtcxtXx5aCjxpYuVPL3WMLJ]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bdqu5-000FTg-B6 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:38:13 +0300 Received: from hail.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.120.74]) by deluge.umist.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Bdqty-0003qm-Ff for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:37:58 +0100 Received: from localuser by hail.umist.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.31 #2) id 1Bdqty-0001N3-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:37:58 +0100 Received: from 217.43.3.250 ( [217.43.3.250]) by webmail1.umist.ac.uk with HTTP; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:37:58 +0100 Message-ID: <1088170678.40dc2ab63bdec@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:37:58 +0100 From: Jeffrey Lee To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: based on Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: me@phlamethrower.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Milo wrote: > There appear to be 66 numbered example programs on the second disk, plus > a few named programs on the first and second. Scanning through the help > file, I find assertz(Term), asserta(Term), and retract(Term), but no > repeat. The effect of these predicates is not described as far as I can > see (not in the in-program help file and not in the example programs > I've opened so far). In that case, I'd advise finding a better Prolog interpreter ;) SWI-Prolog appears to be a good one, and it's free! http://www.swi-prolog.org/ > I tried entering your repeat/foo definition, but it just hung and did > nothing, endlessly looping on the repeat (which is sort of what I > expected it would do). I had to forcibly close my DOS prompt. In that case I'd /definitely/ advise finding a better Prolog interpreter! The definition of repeat is correct, so apart from the eventual stack overflow it should work fine on repeat-less interpreters. > (PS. I'm sorry if my ramblings are off-topic for this mailing list...) I'm sure no-one's bothered. Prolog can be a very useful language! Cheers, Jeffrey -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jun 25 18:01:29 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdsA7-000HHK-Bb; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:58:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:58:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bds9n-000HH0-Sp for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:58:27 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE062F04E0 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:58:21 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40DC3EF3.2030700@dds.nl> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:04:19 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Prolog References: <1088170678.40dc2ab63bdec@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Jeffrey Lee wrote: >In that case, I'd advise finding a better Prolog interpreter ;) Well, this interpreter is copyright 1986, apparently 11 years before the ISO standard surfaced (not to mention a year before I was born), so I'm not surprised that it may be slightly out of date... (To its credit, it DOES have a built-in predicate for a WYSIWYG text editor. Not many programming languages have that...) >>I tried entering your repeat/foo definition, but it just hung and did >>nothing, endlessly looping on the repeat (which is sort of what I >>expected it would do). I had to forcibly close my DOS prompt. > >In that case I'd /definitely/ advise finding a better Prolog >interpreter! The definition of repeat is correct, so apart from the >eventual stack overflow it should work fine on repeat-less >interpreters. Silly me. Turns out it does work. I just mistyped it. (I overlooked that the predicate has two definitions.) Now that I typed it correctly, it works fine and I also see why it works. PEBKAC, huh? >>(PS. I'm sorry if my ramblings are off-topic for this mailing list...) > >I'm sure no-one's bothered. Prolog can be a very useful language! That's exactly why it's offtopic :) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jun 25 18:09:10 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdsHy-000HXS-Cv; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 18:06:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Jun 2004 18:06:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.21]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BdsHg-000HXB-2A for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 18:06:34 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8726364039 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:06:31 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40DC40DE.5070908@dds.nl> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:12:30 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Esoteric Languages Mailing List Subject: [lang] Re: Prolog References: <1088170678.40dc2ab63bdec@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> <40DC3EF3.2030700@dds.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Milo wrote: > Well, this interpreter is copyright 1986, apparently 11 years before > the ISO standard surfaced Or 9, or something. Anyway, some positive number. Now I think I'll withdraw from this discussion before I make even more mistakes. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jun 25 21:08:20 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bdv4f-000Lbn-Cp; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:05:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:05:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from fish.zenon.net ([213.189.198.214] helo=frontend1.aha.ru) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bdv4H-000LaP-KV for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:05:01 +0300 Received: from [63.247.81.174] (HELO localhost) by frontend1.aha.ru (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 56513721 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Jun 2004 22:04:22 +0400 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 22:05:10 +0400 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <152946980437.20040625220510@id.ru> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Argh!] quine In-reply-To: <20040625073209.GA1930@kenny.sha-bang.local> References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> <54865497062.20040624232706@id.ru> <20040625073209.GA1930@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: j7@id.ru Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hello Sascha, Friday, June 25, 2004, 11:32:09 AM, you wrote: > Thank you for this nice piece of code. May I put it in a > contributions directory in the Argh! distribution? If yes, what > name should I put in the credits? Thanks :) Sure. Just "Mtv Europe" is ok. -- Mtv Europe http://www.frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/ P.S. sorry for replying in list, your "SecuritySage RHSBL5" prohibits direct communication. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Jun 27 01:54:25 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BeM0J-00074X-MB; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:50:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:50:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BeM00-00073z-6L for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:50:19 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdsld179.osnanet.de [212.95.103.179]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330F83B6273 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:50:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BeLzm-0001Aj-Qe for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:50:02 +0200 Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 00:50:02 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: Esoteric Lang ML Subject: [lang] [Argh!] 99 bottles of beer Message-ID: <20040626225002.GA4481@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: Esoteric Lang ML Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang lsdllDsalrxdarxsL HshDppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppsrddffj * e124j 21lDsJ DD No more bottles of beer on the wall.* j jhhDfdFdRAhDh q s HDh jfppppppppppppppppppppppPPh j 0 lllllllllllJ j !reeb erom yub ot emiT lsllSsrfsrflllllllsrfSj kphhhhph lPq j0 KA KA 21 H 0 D k lDlllllRxlAllllfsjllRxlDlFRxklFk k lfsrfj 0jk lfsrfjlak The classic k 21 jjShhk 21 j 0 99 bottles of beer khhShhAhllllkhhhShhAh in Argh! q h l lsK lDSdllllllflSJh hJ* wilde@sha-bang.de jfrsppppppppppppppppppppppppppppph j *,llaw eht no reeb fo selttob lPllllllllllllllllllllDSlllllllssK JSfdDh fJo jdrsppppppppppppppppppppppph jfhhhh *,...reeeeeb fo selttob j Take one down, pass it around, lPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPfj s/ j lKhhhhhSSDPh lDfSllllK / jffdrsppppppppppppppppppppppppppppph j *.llaw eht no reeb fo selttob lPPlDSlllllllllllllllllllllllllllssK fJ -- Sascha Wilde -.-. ..- .-. .. --- ... .. - -.-- -.- .. .-.. .-.. . -.. - .... . -.-. .- - -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Jun 27 11:12:32 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BeUj8-000IKp-3y; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:09:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:09:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-5v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.110]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BeUip-000IKV-B7 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:09:10 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lxxx-17-41.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.27.41]) by relay-5v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 0F0021681 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 10:09:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001d01c45c1e$01ab6300$291b2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <20040626225002.GA4481@kenny.sha-bang.local> Subject: [lang] [Argh!] perl lame interpreter and debugger Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 10:09:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang For what it's worth, here is my sloppily written argh interpreter and debugger. runs correctly all known argh programs (including the quine and the bottles). unlimited downwards. I'm using it to tune the implementation of a arbitrary length array... Stay tuned. Laurent #!/usr/local/bin/perl -w # argh.pl - argh debugger # # (C) 2004 Laurent Vogel - covered by the GPL version 2 or later # version 1.0 2004-06-26 # # notes: # - undefined cell value is 32 (ASCII space) # - this apparently works on the existing examples # - It does not check right and left bounds currently use strict; my $inputleft = ''; my $inputbatch = 0; # one if reading from file my $final = 0; my $debug = 0; # one if use the debugger my $ansiesc = 0; # one if use terminal escape sequences my $bold = "\033[7m"; my $norm = "\033[m"; sub err($) { my($a)=@_; $a =~ s/\n$//; print STDERR "error: $a\n"; exit(1); } sub usage($) { my($fatal)=@_; print < ] options are: -d debug -a use ANSI terminal escape sequences -f read input from this file EOF exit(1) if($fatal); } # read arguments my $fname = ''; while(0 < scalar @ARGV) { my $a = shift @ARGV; if ($a =~ s/^-//) { while ($a ne '') { $a =~ s/(.)//; my $c = $1; if ($c eq 'd') { $debug++; } elsif ($c eq 'a') { $ansiesc = 1; } elsif ($c eq 'f') { my $f = shift @ARGV; usage(1) if (!defined $f); open(FILE,"<$f") or die "cannot open $f: $!\n"; while() { $inputleft .= $_; } $inputbatch = 1; close(FILE); } else { usage(1); } } } else { usage(1) if ($fname ne ''); $fname = $a; } } usage(1) if ($fname eq ''); # the hash of break points. A location is a number a; # x = a mod 80; y = a / 80. my $break = {}; my @code = (); my @stack = (); my $csz; my $ssz = 0; # position in code my $loc = 0; my $dir = 0; my $op = ''; sub readcode($) { my($fname)=@_; open(CODE, $fname) or err("cannot open $fname"); my $p = 0; while () { s/[\012\015]+//g; my $n = length $_; my $i; for ($i = 0; $i < $n; $i++) { $code[$p++] = ord(substr($_, $i, 1)); } for (; $i < 80; $i++) { $code[$p++] = 32; } $csz = $p; } close(CODE); } readcode($fname); my $outseq = { ord("'") => "'", ord("\\") => "\\", ord("\n") => "n", ord("\t") => "t", ord("\r") => "r" }; sub out($) { my($a)=@_; if ($debug) { print "Output: \""; if(exists $outseq->{$a}) { print "\\$outseq->{$a}"; } elsif($a >= 32 && $a <= 126) { printf("%c",$a); } else { printf("\\%03o", $a); } print "\"\n"; } else { printf("%c", $a); } } my $ateof = 0; my $eof = -1; sub in() { return -1 if ($ateof); if($inputleft eq '') { if($inputbatch) { $ateof = 1; return $eof; } else { if($debug) { print "Input>"; } $inputleft = <>; if(!defined $inputleft) { $ateof = 1; return $eof; } # $inputleft =~ s/\\n/\n/; # $inputleft =~ s/\\t/\t/; # $inputleft =~ s/\\([0-7][0-7]?[0-7]?)/chr(oct($1))/ge; # $inputleft =~ s/\\x([0-9a-fA-F][0-9a-fA-F])/chr(hex($1))/ge; } } my $c = substr($inputleft, 0, 1); $inputleft = substr($inputleft, 1); # print STDERR "got input '$c' (" . ord($c) . ")\n"; return ord($c); } sub dispcode() { my $i; my $j; my $y = int($loc / 80) ; my $x = $loc % 80; my $a = " ($x,$y): "; $a =~ s/.*(.......: )/$1/; for ($i = $ssz-1; $i >= 0; $i--) { my $c = $stack[$i]; if ($c < 32 || $c > 126) { $a .= "$c "; } else { $a .= sprintf("%c ", $c); } } $a .= "\n"; for($j = $y-2; $j < $y+2; $j++) { next if ($j <0 || $j*80 >= $csz); for ($i = 0; $i < 79; $i++) { if ($i == $x && $j == $y && $ansiesc) { $a .= $bold; } my $c = $code[$j*80+$i]; if ($c < 32 || $c > 126) { $c = '.'; } else { $c = sprintf("%c", $c); } $a .= $c; if ($i == $x && $j == $y && $ansiesc) { $a .= $norm; } } $a .= "\n"; if ($j == $y && !$ansiesc) { $a .= " " x $x . "^\n"; } } print $a; } my $done = 0; my $stackchanged = 0; sub init() { $loc = 0; $dir = 0; } my $dirs = { 'h' => -1, 'j' => 80, 'k' => -80, 'l' => 1 }; my $turn = { -1 => -80, -80 => 1, 1 => 80, 80 => -1 }; sub write_above($) { my($a)=@_; if ($loc-80 <0) { $done = 1; return; } $code[$loc-80] = $a; } sub write_below($) { my($a)=@_; if ($loc+80 > $csz) { my $i; for($i = 0; $i < 80; $i++) { $code[$csz++] = 32; } } $code[$loc+80] = $a; } sub read_above() { if ($loc-80 <0) { $done = 1; return; } return $code[$loc-80]; } sub read_below() { if ($loc+80 > $csz) { my $i; for($i = 0; $i < 80; $i++) { $code[$csz++] = 0; } } return $code[$loc+80]; } sub step() { if ($csz == 0) { $done = 1; return; } my $inst = $code[$loc]; if ($inst <= 32 || $inst >= 126) { $done = 1; return; } $inst = sprintf("%c", $inst); if ($inst =~ /[hjkl]/) { $dir = $dirs->{$inst}; } elsif ($inst =~ /[HJKL]/) { $inst =~ y/HJLK/hjlk/; $dir = $dirs->{$inst}; if ($ssz <= 0) { $done = 1; return; } while ($loc >= 0 && $loc < $csz && $code[$loc] != $stack[$ssz-1]) { $loc += $dir; } if ($loc < 0 || $loc > $csz) { $done = 1; return; } } elsif ($inst eq 'x') { if ($ssz <= 0) { $done = 1; return; } if ($stack[$ssz-1] > 0) { $dir = $turn->{$dir}; } } elsif ($inst eq 'X') { if ($ssz <= 0) { $done = 1; return; } if ($stack[$ssz-1] < 0) { $dir = $turn->{$turn->{$turn->{$dir}}}; } } elsif ($inst eq 'q') { $done = 1; return; } elsif ($inst eq 's') { $stack[$ssz++] = read_below(); } elsif ($inst eq 'S') { $stack[$ssz++] = read_above(); } elsif ($inst eq 'd') { $stack[$ssz] = $stack[$ssz-1]; $ssz++; } elsif ($inst eq 'D') { if($ssz <= 0) { $done = 1; return; } $ssz--; } elsif ($inst eq 'a') { if($ssz <= 0) { $done = 1; return; } $stack[$ssz-1] += read_below(); } elsif ($inst eq 'A') { if($ssz <= 0) { $done = 1; return; } $stack[$ssz-1] += read_above(); } elsif ($inst eq 'r') { if($ssz <= 0) { $done = 1; return; } $stack[$ssz-1] -= read_below(); } elsif ($inst eq 'R') { if($ssz <= 0) { $done = 1; return; } $stack[$ssz-1] -= read_above(); } elsif ($inst eq 'f') { if($ssz <= 0) { $done = 1; return; } write_below($stack[--$ssz]); } elsif ($inst eq 'F') { if($ssz <= 0) { $done = 1; return; } write_above($stack[--$ssz]); } elsif ($inst eq 'p') { out(read_below()); } elsif ($inst eq 'P') { out(read_above()); } elsif ($inst eq 'g') { write_below(in()); } elsif ($inst eq 'G') { write_above(in()); } elsif ($inst eq 'e') { write_below($eof); } elsif ($inst eq 'E') { write_above($eof); } else { $done = 1; return; } if ($loc + $dir > $csz) { write_below(0); } $loc += $dir; } if($debug) { my $lastk = 's'; # default command is step init(); while(!$done) { dispcode(); my $arg = ''; my $k = <>; if(!defined $k) { print "exit\n"; exit(0); } $k =~ s/[\012\015]//g; if($k =~ s/^([0-9]+)//) { $arg = $1; } if($k =~ s/^,([0-9]+)//) { $arg = $arg + 80 * $1; } if($k eq '') { $k = $lastk; } if($k eq 's') { my $count = 1; $count = $arg if($arg ne '') ; while(--$count >= 0 && !$done) { step(); } } elsif($k eq 'n') { my $count = 1; $count = $arg if($arg ne '') ; while(--$count >= 0) { my $lastloc = $loc; while($loc == $lastloc && !$done) { step(); } } } elsif($k eq 'g') { if($arg ne '') { while($loc != $arg && !$done) { step(); } } } elsif($k eq 'S') { $stackchanged = 0; while(!$stackchanged && !$done) { step(); } } elsif($k eq 'q') { exit(0); } elsif($k eq 'b') { $arg = $loc if($arg eq ''); $break->{$arg} = 1; } elsif($k eq 'B') { $arg = $loc if($arg eq ''); delete $break->{$arg}; } elsif($k eq 'c') { step(); while(! exists $break->{$loc} && !$done) { step(); } } else { print < ] is an optional decimal number used as argument are (behaviour in bracket when present): s step (step times) n step until the line number changes (do this times) g (step until reaching line number ) S step until the stack changes c continue b sets a breakpoint on current line (on line number ) B deletes breakpoint on current line (on line number ) q quit if is empty the previous command is executed (with current if any). EOF } $lastk = $k; } } else { init(); while(!$done) { step(); } } -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Jun 27 14:50:20 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BeY7v-000MwR-9T; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:47:15 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:46:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BeY7b-000Mw8-Hj for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:46:59 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdsle217.osnanet.de [212.95.104.217]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 761C1399A9C for ; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:47:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BeY7b-0000fL-3k for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:46:55 +0200 Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:46:55 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Argh!] perl lame interpreter and debugger Message-ID: <20040627114654.GA2414@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040626225002.GA4481@kenny.sha-bang.local> <001d01c45c1e$01ab6300$291b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001d01c45c1e$01ab6300$291b2cd5@HPPAVILION> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Sun, Jun 27, 2004 at 10:09:00AM +0200, Laurent Vogel wrote: > For what it's worth, here is my sloppily written argh interpreter and > debugger. nice, and extremely useful -- much easier to handle than my c argh in the verbose debuging version... But some of the debgging commands don't seem to work as intended (or at least not as I would expect them to work from the help): - Arguments must be very next to the command (spaces are not allowed) this differs from the first impression I got from the synopsis. - 'n' seems to behave exactly like 's' - 'S' seems not to work (beer.agh runs through, though there are countless changes on the stack) - I'm not sure what you are using the term 'line' for -- I'm having the strong feeling, that in most cases it denotes the column not the line. Further more it seems that any argh, which is described as giving a 'line number' only references the given column of the current line -- this is not only for b (where it is documented) but alsow for 'g'. Anyway, I like ist very much and will put it on the Argh! home at: http://www.sha-bang.de/index.php?page=13_eso so I will be highly interested in any updates (or official homepage if there is one). -- Sascha Wilde - no sig today... sorry! -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Jun 27 15:33:50 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BeYoE-000Nw7-Qg; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:30:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:30:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BeYnw-000Nvq-In for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:30:43 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdsle217.osnanet.de [212.95.104.217]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FA83BBE30 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:30:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BeYnw-0000ia-N8 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:30:40 +0200 Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:30:40 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Argh!] perl lame interpreter and debugger Message-ID: <20040627123040.GA2601@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040626225002.GA4481@kenny.sha-bang.local> <001d01c45c1e$01ab6300$291b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001d01c45c1e$01ab6300$291b2cd5@HPPAVILION> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Sun, Jun 27, 2004 at 10:09:00AM +0200, Laurent Vogel wrote: > For what it's worth, here is my sloppily written argh interpreter and > debugger. a few more things I forgot in my last mail... > unlimited downwards. this is a interesting feature, which qualifies your interpreter as extenden Argh! interpreter, a dialect I would like to call Aargh! (two 'a'). > # notes: > # - undefined cell value is 32 (ASCII space) I think dokumenting this is potentional dangerous, one should _never_ rely on the content of uninitialized cells. -- Sascha Wilde Hi! I'm a .signature *virus*! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread! -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 01 21:07:09 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bg5tg-0003wJ-3W; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:02:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:02:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-av.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.107]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bg5tI-0003vr-4E for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:02:39 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv4-1-141.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.11.141]) by relay-av.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D21625607; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:02:24 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003b01c45f95$8f4adb30$8d0b2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: Cc: References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:02:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Sascha Wilde wrote: > On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 04:20:10PM +0200, Milo wrote: > > 1. I'm utterly confused about what H/J/K/L are supposed to do. Care to > > enlighten me? > > I just uploaded a revised version of the spec, I hope that this and > some other points will become clear in the new version: > http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/Argh-Spec.txt > > There is even a modified archve, with the new spec in it: > http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/argh-0.1.1.tgz > > Anyway, here is the short short version: > H, J, K, L set a new execution direction like h, j, k, l but in > addition to that they jump into the new direction to the next cell > whos value matches the value on top of the stack: Well, you say that the H, J, K, L instructions jump to the NEXT cell and not the FIRST cell. now the question is, what should this sample produce? lsLpppppqLppppppq L first second Apparently current implementation argh.c prints "first". However according to the spec I was expecting "second". Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 01 23:05:49 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bg7kp-0006aF-FA; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 23:01:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 01 Jul 2004 23:01:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bg7kT-0006Zq-QF for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 23:01:39 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslk216.osnanet.de [212.95.111.216]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0DD53C4C90 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:01:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1Bg7kN-0001CB-J1 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 22:01:27 +0200 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:01:27 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Message-ID: <20040701200127.GA3314@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8401A.7090309@dds.nl> <20040622170128.GA3640@kenny.sha-bang.local> <003b01c45f95$8f4adb30$8d0b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <003b01c45f95$8f4adb30$8d0b2cd5@HPPAVILION> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Jul 01, 2004 at 08:02:21PM +0200, Laurent Vogel wrote: > Well, you say that the H, J, K, L instructions jump to the NEXT cell an= d > not the FIRST cell. now the question is, what should this sample produc= e? >=20 > lsLpppppqLppppppq > L first second >=20 > Apparently current implementation argh.c prints "first". > However according to the spec I was expecting "second". Your expection was right, this is a bug in the implementation (the Spec is right...). I fixed this, the new archive can be found here: http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/argh-0.1.3.tgz Any Argh! developers please update. Your argh.pl interpreter/debugger has the same bug, here is a possible fix: --- argh.pl Sun Jun 27 13:49:36 2004 +++ argh-fix.pl Thu Jul 1 21:58:17 2004 @@ -287,10 +287,10 @@ if ($ssz <=3D 0) { $done =3D 1; return; } - while ($loc >=3D 0 && $loc < $csz=20 - && $code[$loc] !=3D $stack[$ssz-1]) { + do { $loc +=3D $dir; - } + } while ($loc >=3D 0 && $loc < $csz=20 + && $code[$loc] !=3D $stack[$ssz-1]); if ($loc < 0 || $loc > $csz) { $done =3D 1; return; } cheers sascha --=20 Sascha Wilde ... mein Opa [...] w=FCrde an dieser Stelle zu Dir sagen: Junge, such Di= r=20 ne Frau, bau Dir ein Haus, mach ein Kind und la=DF' die Finger von dem Ze= ug, das Du gerade machst. -- Michael Winklhofer in d.a.e.auktionshaeuser -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 10 23:17:46 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BjOEg-000PxY-Bt; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:14:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:13:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BjOEP-000PxJ-OM for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:13:58 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdsld106.osnanet.de [212.95.103.106]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA7D53D9B74 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:14:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BjOEN-0003Pu-2V for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:13:55 +0200 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:13:54 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Message-ID: <20040710201354.GA13086@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040622210349.GB5607@kenny.sha-bang.local> <40D8BDF1.6080307@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40D8BDF1.6080307@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 01:17:05AM +0200, Milo wrote: > Challenge: Write a program that copies stdin to stdout in the same order > as cat, except that the very last character is moved to the beginning. Ok, I took some time, but here it is: lsllesgslarj j1j3j2j4H D P 0 20j D D D D kfdhh jDXxRdSFhfdh llsarj lJJJh J l021k D lk kf 12j llllllllllSSARk lDjlsssssSrdfsLkSFXhhDh k DDD j jfhkqqkff 5 D D k fff j j k jhhShhhhhh k hhh lPlk j lllllsarj k j D kj hj 15j k ldfSLkSSSSFXhhDhk fkqD k jhhShhhhhSSSh k j lllllsarj k j D kffff 15j k ldfSLkSSSSFXhhDh k D k jhhShhhhhhhhh k j lllllsarj k j D kljj 15j k ldfSLkSSSSFXhhDh k kD k jhhShhhhhhhSh k j lllllsarj k j D kffff 15j k ldfSLkSSSSFXhhDh k llllllDDk This collects input until EOF then print out all input but put the last input character to front. This will show off best, when the last character of input is no blank, so make shure that Input doesn't end with '\n'. Note that on standard Argh! this only works with very short Input (up to 17 chars) -- to work with input of arbitrary length use a Aargh! (extended Argh!) interpreter, like argh.pl by Laurent Vogel. I'm quite positive, that technique used in this code might work as a basis to prove, that Aargh! (extended Argh!) is TC -- I'm not able to prove it, though... Any comments? cheers sascha -- Sascha Wilde "Gimme about 10 seconds to think for a minute..." -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 10 23:37:54 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BjOZ9-0000UO-2U; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:35:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:35:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BjOYs-0000U9-Fa for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:35:07 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdsld106.osnanet.de [212.95.103.106]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6D3D3CF8AB for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:35:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BjOYq-0003Rl-So for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:35:04 +0200 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:35:04 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: Esoteric Lang ML Subject: [lang] [Argh!] Updated Spec Message-ID: <20040710203504.GA13218@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: Esoteric Lang ML Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang There is an updated Argh! Spec, which you can find as always here: http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/Argh-Spec.txt There is also an update of my Argh! distribution: http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/argh-0.1.5b.tgz - There is a new undocumented[0] Instruction '#' which makes executable Argh!-programs possible on many systems. - Thomas Arendsen Hein contributed a vim editing mode for Argh! - and of cause there are some new examples. may the Argh! be with you sascha [0] which, as always with Argh!, is indeed well documented... --=20 Sascha Wilde : xedit? Das sieht zwar wie vi aus als k=F6nne es nix, aber = im : Gegensatz zu vi kann es wirklich nix und nix ist noch gesc= h=F6nt! : (Michael Core in dafc) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Jul 11 21:21:49 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BjiuQ-0000qS-JU; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:18:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:18:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from www.bebits.com ([208.245.212.78] helo=marvin.fifthace.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bjiu9-0000qC-Bn for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:18:26 +0300 Received: from [207.177.38.160] (cscd-02-160.dsl.netins.net [207.177.38.160]) by marvin.fifthace.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-5) with ESMTP id i6BIIJUE019852 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:18:22 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: Sean Heber Subject: [lang] Whirl Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:18:17 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: sean@fifthace.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Introducing Whirl! This is my first post to the list, so I'm not sure if this is proper procedure... but what the heck. :-) Whirl is my second esoteric language. (My first is COW http://www.bigzaphod.org/cow/) It only has two instructions: 0 and 1. The instructions manipulate two rings (or wheels) of 12 commands each. There is an endless 1 dimensional array of integers which serves as the memory and a current memory pointer. Each ring also has a storage area for one integer value. The definition of the instructions are: 1: Rotate the current ring in the current direction. 0: Reverse the direction of rotation of the active ring. If previous instruction was a 0 and it did not trigger an execution, then the currently selected command on the currently active ring is executed and the active ring is switched to the other ring. To get two executions in a row (one on the current command of each ring) requires 0000 and not 000. Rather than reproduce all 24 commands from both wheels here, I'll refer you to Whril's homepage here: http://www.bigzaphod.org/whirl/ I've only created one program so far which performs 1+1 and prints the results. The commented version of the program is on the web site, but here is the short version: 0001100000111100001000001001100000111100 l8r Sean -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 12 15:39:47 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bk00j-0001Ej-3q; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from aktaia.intevation.org ([212.95.126.10] helo=mail.intevation.de) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bk00R-0001EU-Ch for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:04 +0300 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.intevation.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CC8E3711E for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:34:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from salmakis.hq (salmakis.hq [192.168.11.9]) by mail.intevation.de (Postfix) with SMTP id A105B3711B for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:34:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: (nullmailer pid 1983 invoked by uid 10008); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:34:00 -0000 To: Esoteric Lang ML Subject: [lang] Re: [Argh!] Updated Spec References: <20040710203504.GA13218@kenny.sha-bang.local> From: Bernhard Herzog Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:34:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040710203504.GA13218@kenny.sha-bang.local> (Sascha Wilde's message of "Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:35:04 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bh@intevation.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Sascha Wilde writes: > There is also an update of my Argh! distribution: > http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/argh-0.1.5b.tgz This version and the previous one can segfault when executing the jump instructions when there's no matching jump target in the code. Small sample program to reproduce: lsL A > - and of cause there are some new examples. Below's another one for your collection. Bernhard jAllllllsflllllllslflllllllslflllllllslflllllllslflllllllslfllllllllH j A 10 01 02 03 04 05 llsrflsdFASJlDlfsFaASJlDlfsFaASJlDlfsFaASJlDlfsFaASJlDlfsFaASJlDlflxj KA 0 0 a 0 0 1 b 0 0 2 c 0 0 3 d 0 0 4 e 0 0 5 f qs KSPhFhhhhDhJSSFhFdhDhJSSFhFdhDhJSSFhFdhDhJSSFhFdhDhJSSFhFdhDhJSSDhJ a b c d e f J Prints all fibonacci numbers less than 10^12 in decimal llllllllsL 0K 1K 2K 3K 4K 5K k 0 bb s s s s s s kjhfAXRRFDHHH HH HH HH HH H ksk lafsj klRSj J jj khhhhhASRh Copyright (C) 2004 Bernhard Herzog This program is free software under the GNU GPL (>=v2) lllslsL KaH KbH KcH KdH KeH KfH k s s s s s s kjhFdFDfrsH HH HH HH HH HH H kj/ 0: klRfsjlRxRallllflsL <- subroutine kjjXhhfdhhhharhhh k 0jk lfsrfj hlk <- derived jhjlDLFlDllrxSJLkzJKJ k jShhk sr jlSSL <- fom 2dec.agh lfllllSXDfj0lArlkRRSh k llllkhhShhAhD jDr j H khhhhhhhhhhhlDkk HShhhhhhhPh -- Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ Skencil http://sketch.sourceforge.net/ Thuban http://thuban.intevation.org/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 12 21:09:46 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bk5CM-0008kA-2O; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:06:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:06:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bk5C4-0008ju-TE for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:06:25 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslb242.osnanet.de [212.95.100.242]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9B223CCFAA for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:06:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1Bk5C3-0000nh-1K for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:06:23 +0200 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:06:23 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: Esoteric Lang ML Subject: [lang] Re: [Argh!] Updated Spec Message-ID: <20040712180623.GA2906@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: Esoteric Lang ML References: <20040710203504.GA13218@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Mon, Jul 12, 2004 at 02:34:00PM +0200, Bernhard Herzog wrote: > Sascha Wilde writes: > > > There is also an update of my Argh! distribution: > > http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/argh-0.1.5b.tgz > > This version and the previous one can segfault when executing the jump > instructions when there's no matching jump target in the code. Yes, this is on my IRealyShouldFixThis-list, will be fixed in the next release. > Below's another one for your collection. [fibonacci] sweet! I'll put it into conrib/ cheers sascha -- Sascha Wilde "There is no reason why anyone would want a computer in their home" Ken Olson, DEC, 1977 -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 14 20:17:48 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BknL4-000JaP-NU; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:14:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:14:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BknKk-000Ja7-Ts for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:14:22 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdsle212.osnanet.de [212.95.104.212]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668E733EE02 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:14:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BknKi-0000uu-TW for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:14:16 +0200 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:14:16 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: Esoteric Lang ML Subject: [lang] [Argh!] Version 0.2 released, including Aargh! Message-ID: <20040714171416.GB3024@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: Esoteric Lang ML Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mojUlQ0s9EVzWg2t" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang --mojUlQ0s9EVzWg2t Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have just released the brand new Argh! distribution v0.2, it includes: - a revised spec, featuring for the first time Aargh!,=20 the extended Argh! - an Aargh! interpreter (try it with examples/tricky1.agh=20 and any amount of input) - a revised Makefile, Readme-file and lots of other cosmetic stuff, nobody really needs... The revised spec can be found here: http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/Argh-Spec.txt Download the full distribution here: http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/argh-0.2.tgz The official home of Argh! is http://www.sha-bang.de/index.php?page=3D13_eso but it's still only german. Any comments, hacks and flames are, as always, highly welcome! cheers sascha --=20 Sascha Wilde : The sum of intelligence on earth is a constant;=20 : population is growing --mojUlQ0s9EVzWg2t Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA9WnochutvmkRUCQRArNAAKChAB7gqmCe3E3uYMvQrawIRw+A/QCg3Q59 LQ0lOOH1T/5VEGZG5h8oXbA= =kSPD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mojUlQ0s9EVzWg2t-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 15 12:31:10 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bl2ZZ-000EUy-B4; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:30:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:30:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.wirelessisland.net ([66.21.33.168]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bl2ZP-000EUf-Uh for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:30:29 +0300 Received: from [192.168.0.211] [24.222.23.117] by mail.wirelessisland.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.07) id AEAB2E00F6; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:30:19 -0400 From: Stephen Mosher To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: non-algorithmic programming Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:27:18 -0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407150627.18311.steve@wirelessisland.net> X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: steve@wirelessisland.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Okay, I thought I'd start up a silly topic for misc. Basically, it's been brought to my attention recently that writing a program and writing an algorithm are different things entirely. According to the dictionary, algorithms must be deterministic. I think the distinction is pretty meaningless myself, since they're both sets of instructions, and given the halting problem, the question of whether a given set of instructions is deterministic isn't a deterministic problem in itself. ANYWAY, I was thinking of non-algorithmic programming, in the sense that no instructions are ever used, but information processing still occurs. I even figured out how to make it deterministic, if need be. I'm writing some code to support neural networks (not in the classical way they're implemented on computers, though) with a markup language for defining topology, and a further markup language for *describing* topology (which will compile to a definition.) In essence, the core will be a multithreaded VM. Do you think this would constitute programming? I know I could build topologies that would solve specific problems, and I might even be able to write a BF interpreter in it, but that would be tedious. I probably wouldn't be up to the task, since I'm focussed on working on other things once I get the VM going. I could give pointers to anyone crazy enough to try it, though. I think it would be just perfect to have it christened TC. -- -- Stephen Mosher From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 15 12:48:38 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bl2qs-000F1o-5e; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:48:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:48:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from carstenkuckuk.de ([217.160.141.105] helo=p15120109.pureserver.info) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bl2qj-000F1Z-97 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:48:22 +0300 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (carstenkuckuk.de [217.160.141.105]) by p15120109.pureserver.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id B867D34C03C; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:48:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40F652DE.7050907@kuckuk.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:48:14 +0200 From: Carsten Kuckuk User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.1 (Windows/20040626) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Mosher Cc: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: non-algorithmic programming References: <200407150627.18311.steve@wirelessisland.net> In-Reply-To: <200407150627.18311.steve@wirelessisland.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ck@kuckuk.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc You're in essence talking about processing data flows. Language aspect: Before you reinvent the wheel, take a look at VHDL, which is an Ada-like language used by EEs to specify ICs. Theoretical aspect: If you only have finite networks (neural networks, ICs) in mind, you in effect have a big, but finite, state machine. You need to introduce some infinite element (tape, recursion, memory) in order to get Turing completeness. Carsten Stephen Mosher wrote: > Okay, I thought I'd start up a silly topic for misc. > > Basically, it's been brought to my attention recently that writing a program > and writing an algorithm are different things entirely. According to the > dictionary, algorithms must be deterministic. I think the distinction is > pretty meaningless myself, since they're both sets of instructions, and given > the halting problem, the question of whether a given set of instructions is > deterministic isn't a deterministic problem in itself. > > ANYWAY, I was thinking of non-algorithmic programming, in the sense that no > instructions are ever used, but information processing still occurs. I even > figured out how to make it deterministic, if need be. > > I'm writing some code to support neural networks (not in the classical way > they're implemented on computers, though) with a markup language for defining > topology, and a further markup language for *describing* topology (which will > compile to a definition.) In essence, the core will be a multithreaded VM. > > Do you think this would constitute programming? I know I could build > topologies that would solve specific problems, and I might even be able to > write a BF interpreter in it, but that would be tedious. I probably wouldn't > be up to the task, since I'm focussed on working on other things once I get > the VM going. I could give pointers to anyone crazy enough to try it, though. > I think it would be just perfect to have it christened TC. > From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 15 13:54:13 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bl3s8-000Ggr-Gn; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:53:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:53:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.wirelessisland.net ([66.21.33.168]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bl3rz-000Ggb-4W for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:53:44 +0300 Received: from [192.168.0.211] [24.222.23.117] by mail.wirelessisland.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.07) id A2232DB014E; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:53:23 -0400 From: Stephen Mosher To: Carsten Kuckuk Subject: Re: non-algorithmic programming Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:50:20 -0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 Cc: misc@esoteric.sange.fi References: <200407150627.18311.steve@wirelessisland.net> <40F652DE.7050907@kuckuk.com> In-Reply-To: <40F652DE.7050907@kuckuk.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407150750.21041.steve@wirelessisland.net> X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: steve@wirelessisland.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On July 15, 2004 06:48 am, Carsten Kuckuk wrote: > You're in essence talking about processing data flows. > > Language aspect: Before you reinvent the wheel, take a look at VHDL, > which is an Ada-like language used by EEs to specify ICs. I'll look into it. I've got very specialized needs, and I need about 30K threads, so I think doing from the ground up is the best, but I will certainly look into it. > Theoretical aspect: If you only have finite networks (neural networks, > ICs) in mind, you in effect have a big, but finite, state machine. You > need to introduce some infinite element (tape, recursion, memory) in > order to get Turing completeness. Yep. I've got that -- runtime "gene" generation/activation. It would be amazingly hard to apply in a turing machine kind of way, though, and is really only meant to build the network in the first place. Still, with a bit of hackery, it should be possible. > > Carsten -- -- Stephen Mosher From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 16 12:07:13 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BlOfi-000MIK-1a; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:06:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:06:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BlOfY-000MI1-Nm for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:06:17 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id i6G96C187991 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200407150627.18311.steve@wirelessisland.net> References: <200407150627.18311.steve@wirelessisland.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:06:11 -0700 To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: Re: non-algorithmic programming Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >ANYWAY, I was thinking of non-algorithmic programming, in the sense that no >instructions are ever used, but information processing still occurs. I even >figured out how to make it deterministic, if need be. I should just add that languages where the desired outcome is specified, but not how to achieve it, are often called "declarative". -Daniel. -- >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[- <<]>[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>] http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 17 23:40:41 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Blvvs-000FRZ-Tx; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:37:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:37:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Blvvc-000FRK-4w for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:37:04 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslh038.osnanet.de [212.95.107.38]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id C06813DB971 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:37:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BlvvZ-00021K-Nz for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:37:01 +0200 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:37:01 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: Esoteric Lang ML Subject: [lang] [Argh!] Bugfixes and Argh! Mode for Emacs Message-ID: <20040717203701.GA7406@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: Esoteric Lang ML Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hello *, yet another Argh! update: http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/argh-0.2.1.tgz Bugfixes: - removed a bug in the interpreter, which limitel line length in all former versions to 79 instructions, not 80 as stated in the spec. - removed a subtle bug in the Aargh! interpreter. Only writing made the code/data array grow an demand, now even reading should reallocate memory if needed... Features: - I added an Aargh! editing mode for GNU Emacs to the Distribution. (including keyword and bad-char highlighting, Code and Data entering support and width limiting to 80 chars) have fun! sascha -- Sascha Wilde : "I heard that if you play the Windows CD backward, you : get a satanic message. But that's nothing compared to : when you play it forward: It installs Windows...." : -- G. R. Gaudreau -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Jul 25 19:57:58 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BomGq-000GnX-6u; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:54:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:54:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BomGW-000Gn5-3T for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:54:27 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdsld047.osnanet.de [212.95.103.47]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AD02E5A52; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:54:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BomGU-0000gx-T2; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:54:22 +0200 Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:54:22 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: Esoteric Lang ML Subject: [lang] [Argh!] Interpreter/debugger for GNU emacs Message-ID: <20040725165422.GA2628@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: Esoteric Lang ML Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hello *, I have added a complete Aargh! interpreter to the emacs argh-mode.el, featuring interactive single stepping, cell and stack inspection and visual execution in setable speed. The emacs interpreter is not yet part of the distribution, but available for betatesting here: http://www.sha-bang.de/content/13_eso/argh-mode.el Any comments, bugreports and flames are highly welcome! cheers sascha -- Sascha Wilde We're Germans and we use Unix. That's a combination of two demographic groups known to have no sense of humour whatsoever. -- Hanno Mueller in de.comp.os.unix.programming -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 12:08:45 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bq6ri-0004qv-9j; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:06:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:06:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.132]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bq6rQ-0004qf-CD for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:06:01 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T95xwx012461; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:06:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Bq6qB-0005jg-00; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:04:43 +0300 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:04:43 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: Lucas Gallindo Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Looking for references Message-ID: <20040729090440.GG7365@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Lucas Gallindo , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <1fb101c449a5$db3c2540$0b06010a@mail2world.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1fb101c449a5$db3c2540$0b06010a@mail2world.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 01:03:36PM -0700, Lucas Gallindo wrote: > I was searching for comprehensive web sites about basic of formal > grammars, lambda calculus and intepreter writing. Can someone point me > some good references ? I don't know if this is any good, but http://www.cwi.nl/~tromp/cl/cl.html contains quite good pointers IMO. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 12:08:45 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bq6qJ-0004nU-GM; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:04:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:04:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.132]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bq6q0-0004nG-Nn for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:04:33 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T94WQE012093 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:04:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Bq6om-0005jR-00 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:03:16 +0300 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:03:15 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: missing brainf**k variants? Message-ID: <20040729090313.GF7365@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 11:15:19PM -0700, Brian Thompson wrote: > like spoon and ook! that are just different ways of representing the > bf vocabulary, but I am definitely looking for new functionality. Rather than giving links to things, I'd like to list some other (bf-derivative) languages that should probably be included. These are iag and brainfunk (http://sange.fi/~atehwa/small-esoteric/), and a more brainfuck-ish derivative by (IIRC) FvDP, the name of which I have unfortunately forgotten but might have been bfc (with "<" for car and ">" for cdr), Doublefuck, BAK (which still has a distibution below http://esoteric.sange.fi/orphaned/), and then the bit-twiddling version of brainfuck which, instead of "+" and "-", only had a "toggle" instruction (don't remember what that was called, though). Another variant whose name I've forgotten was the one where instead of traditional bf mapping + => mem[p]++ - => mem[p]-- there was + => mem[mem[p]]++ - => mem[mem[p]]-- The language was exactly the same in other aspects, for example, > still meant p++. Of course, this language cannot be expressed in tape semantics - rather, it had an initial condition of p = mem[_] = 0. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 12:24:27 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bq76i-0005Nk-AA; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:21:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:21:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from send.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.133]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bq76Q-0005NV-T8 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:21:31 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by send.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T9LUSE014709; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:21:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Bq75B-000774-00; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:20:13 +0300 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:20:13 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: Sascha Wilde Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] yet another bf interpreter Message-ID: <20040729092012.GH7365@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Sascha Wilde , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040614211043.GA5101@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040614211043.GA5101@kenny.sha-bang.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Mon, Jun 14, 2004 at 11:10:43PM +0200, Sascha Wilde wrote: > While thinking of the concept I discovered, that there is already a > optimizing BF Interpreter by Alex Pankratov which can be found here: > http://swapped.cc/bf/ > but yabfi2 is at least on my GNU/Linux Athlon800 Box slightly faster > (around 10%) Do you know how yabfi2 compares in speed to straightforward compilers (like dbc) or optimising compilers (lice bfc)? Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 13:15:00 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bq7tH-0006kN-Ly; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:11:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:11:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from send.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.133]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bq7t0-0006k8-Dg for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:11:43 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by send.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6TABgAV028484 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:11:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Bq7rl-0004BT-00 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:10:25 +0300 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:10:25 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Message-ID: <20040729101023.GO7365@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 07:20:35AM -0700, Daniel. wrote: > >I thought of this before and yes, if it turns out to be usefull or > >necessary there will be an "extended" Argh with an unlimited > >code/data array (still 80 cells width but unlimited length). > I am not sure whether that will help. The fact that instructions can > only modify data in their immediate vicinity, not data specified by > address, means that any program that generates an arbitrary amount of > data--and such programs are certainly necessary for > Turing-completeness--must include self-replicating code, or at least > code that generates code that generates code that generates... If we're just asking for TEq, I think this is not so bad: after all, code is data and data is code, and brainfuck and Turing machines lack non-local effects anyway. Especially the likeness to Turing machines is clear: the stack corresponds to the state of the TM, while the instructions correspond to symbols on the tape, and code pointer corresponds to the tape head. > The question is whether it will be possible to use self-replicating > code to store, access, and modify arbitrarily large amounts of data, > especially given the way data accesses are limited to the same > vertical column as the code. Columns of instructions that grow and > shrink to represent integer registers are the most promising > approach, but I'm not going to mess with it now. I didn't have time to look at the language spec, but it sounds like it would be relatively easy to emulate a tape with the vertical dimension. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 14:47:55 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bq9L6-00095g-D5; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:44:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:44:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.132]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bq9Ko-00095Q-F9 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:44:32 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6TBiUHs026429 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:44:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Bq9JZ-0003yx-00 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:43:13 +0300 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:43:13 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Announcing essie4 Message-ID: <20040729114311.GP7365@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hello y'all. It seems we (that's inclusive, mind you) finally have too much time in our hands, so I'm going to announce essie4, that is, Ennuial Essies Awards for year 2004. (What's that sound of "Noooo!" I hear from the backseats?) ! Motivation Because there has been so far no essies contest that would have been totally completed (though some may challenge this assertion), I'm going to change the rules semiradically. These changes include, but are not limited to: - there will be _no division_ between judges and contestants. - there will be _no ranking_. - consequently, there will be _no awards_ (so how is this "ennuial essies awards"?). - there will be less limitations on submissions. The idea here is that competition was never really a big motivation for participation in essies. What I think counted most was the possibility to publish something new, increase productivity, and have proper attention paid to, and feedback given for, the work (a task in which the judges have failed to different extents). So, I'm looking for a way of achieving these goals _without_ there being a contest with strict rules. So if we don't have strict rules, what do we have? We have a deadline. The purpose of a deadline is to give some vague hint of when the contest is, and to give form for the contest. Moreover, it allows contestants to innovate freely for a period of time, unaffected by the work of others. The deadline for essie4 is from 1 Sep 2004 to 14 Sep 2004. We have categories. These guide the work, and make it more interesting to compare the contest entries. We have public resources. There is the mailing list, lang@esoteric.sange.fi, for sending submissions. For submissions posted within the deadline range, I guarantee to _publish them_ on the website, http://esoteric.sange.fi/essie4/, where they will reside for the foreseeable future (so you can be sure your work has at least some kind of web presence). Moreover, each entry will be given a _dedicated wiki page_ which allows for discussing the entry. These discussions will be available for the foreseeable future, and will be protected by me (with a little help from version control) against malicious editing. We have a community, peer review, and esteem. All the entries are made immediately available to as wide a range of public as easily possible (with the techniques mentioned above). Different people are free (and encouraged) to send prizes to the authors of the entries they like. I might send some (though I won't promise anything). Okay, so on with the stuff. ! I want to participate; what should I do? There are several ways you might participate: write a submission to a category:: Check out the categories and see if you'd like to take part in one. Let ideas flow, try it out, and finally, send your work to lang@esoteric.sange.fi after 1 Sep 2004 but preferably before 14 Sep 2004. The submission will be published under http://esoteric.sange.fi/essie4/. try somebody else's work out:: Get the submission from either the web site or the original submission posting. Gather impressions, think, play. take part in the discussion that ensues:: After 1 Sep 2004, the entries are available for discussion. You may comment them on the list, but better yet, use the entry's wiki page, because this will make your comments stay and be refined as time goes. send prizes:: I guess the contestants will esteem it if they receive some material acknowledgement of their work. If you feel someone should be rewarded, feel free to do so. Use your imagination when coming up with proper prizes -- I'm sure there's someone out there just dying to get my "primer of modern Icelandic" from year 1927. ! How do I submit to a category? Depends on how many you want to be able to try your work out. To ease my work, send your entry as a .zip or .tar.gz package that contains a directory with the same name, suffix stripped. (That is: if your entry is called "gebooie", send an e-mail to lang@esoteric.sange.fi, to which you attach gebooie-1.0.tar.gz, which contains a directory gebooie-1.0 where the actual files are). You don't need to use version numbers, they're just handy if you publish subsequent works after the contest. Please use a subject line of "essie4 entry (/category number/): gebooie" You should be aware for the consequences of using some esoteric / sparsely available tool. For example, I guess most users will not install SML/NJ on their (Windows?) machines just to try your entry out. Expect amount of commentary to match the ease with which your entry can be tried out. Note that submitting old stuff is _explicitly allowed_. Of course, there is little point in doing so if the entry has been submitted to another contest already or if it's well-known enough to have several web sites to discuss it. But if you are going to submit something that has already been published, please don't tell about it before the deadline. However, everything you submit should be your work, written by you, or at least, contain clear markers of whose work it is, and be submitted will all authors' permission. The work should be published under a license that is DFSG-free (http://www.debian.org/social_contract.html); otherwise, you're causing a lot of excess trouble for other people. You have immaterial rights to your own work anyway. The simplest way to make a piece of work DFSG-free is to place it in the public domain; other options include publishing it under GPL, BSDL, Artistic license or your own DFSG-free license. ! Categories; or, what should an entry contain? There are four categories this year. These are quite conservative. Turing-equivalent language:: In this category, all entries should be languages that have descriptive power equivalent to a Turing machine, or at least, intend to have. The submission should contain a short introduction to the language (gebooie-1.0/README), possibly with examples, a specification (gebooie-1.0/gebooie-spec.txt) with enough detail to implement the language and with a passage on why you think the language is TEq, some trivial and preferably non-trivial example programs (gebooie-1.0/examples/) and preferably an implementation. If you want to play nice, include also a makefile and/or installation instructions (gebooie-1.0/INSTALL). Under-Turing-equivalent gimmick:: Languages, facilities and libraries not falling into the previous category. HQ9+ and a library/filter to interpret character streams into GUI interactions are examples of proper entries to this category. The submission should contain a short introduction to the facility (gebooie-1.0/README), possibly with examples, a specification (gebooie-1.0/gebooie-spec.txt) with enough detail to implement the facility, some trivial and preferably non-trivial use cases (gebooie-1.0/examples/) and preferably an implementation. If you want to play nice, include also a makefile and/or installation instructions (gebooie-1.0/INSTALL). A program in an esoteric programming language:: An interesting program that is written in some esoteric language (by _your_ definition of esoteric, which might or might not include e.g. C++), possibly obfuscated if not complicated enough otherwise. The submission should contain a short introduction to the program (gebooie-1.0/README), possibly with usage examples, a description of what the program does, in detail (gebooie-1.0/gebooie.txt), a description of _why_ the program does that (i.e. how it works and what kind of states / data structures / logic it has), unless writing one would be boring/trivial (gebooie-1.0/gebooie-explanation.txt), and the program itself. A new implementation of an old esoteric programming language:: An implementation for an esoteric language previously published and preferably invented by someone else than the contestant. The submission should contain the implementation, proper documentation (gebooie-1.0/README and gebooie-1.0/gebooie-spec.txt, possibly also a manual page), and good facilities for building and installing the software (makefile and/or INSTALL and/or some custom installation system). ! Deadline, once again The entries should _not_ be revealed before 1 Sep 2004. They should be revealed before 14 Sep 2004, or you risk your entry to be ignored (by me, that is). ---- This announcement will be published at http://esoteric.sange.fi/essie4/, which is the _official home page_ of Ennuial Esoteric Awards for year 2004. Have fun, and let the esoteric spirit reign, yours, Panu. -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 15:05:17 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bq9cS-000Aif-Op; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:02:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:02:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bq9cA-000AiO-Vt for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:02:28 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslb101.osnanet.de [212.95.100.101]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2691130EBEC; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:02:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1Bq9c6-00032M-Bu; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:02:22 +0200 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:02:22 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: Panu Kalliokoski Cc: Esoteric Lang ML Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] yet another bf interpreter Message-ID: <20040729120222.GA11655@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: Panu Kalliokoski , Esoteric Lang ML References: <20040614211043.GA5101@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040729092012.GH7365@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040729092012.GH7365@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 12:20:13PM +0300, Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > On Mon, Jun 14, 2004 at 11:10:43PM +0200, Sascha Wilde wrote: > > While thinking of the concept I discovered, that there is already a > > optimizing BF Interpreter by Alex Pankratov which can be found here: > > http://swapped.cc/bf/ > > but yabfi2 is at least on my GNU/Linux Athlon800 Box slightly faster > > (around 10%) > > Do you know how yabfi2 compares in speed to straightforward compilers > (like dbc) or optimising compilers (lice bfc)? Quite bad, to be honest. :-/ It does no real jit or any other elaborated black magic, all it does is some caching for jumps and sequences. It's very trivial but I found that most other bfi, at least those implemented in c, didn't do anything like that, so I decided to publish it. cheers sascha -- >++++++[<+++++++++++>-]<+.>+++[<++++++>-]<.---.---------.++++++.++++.--------- -.+++++++++++.+++++.>+++++++[<-------->-]<-.>++++++[<+++++++>-]<+.--.+++..---- ---.-.>++++++[<------>-]<.>++++[<+++++++++++++>-]<.------------.---.>++++++[<- ----->-]<-.>+++++[<+++++++>-]<.--.>+++[<++++++>-]<+.>++++++++[<--------->-]<--. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 15:29:58 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqA0H-000BNz-6k; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:27:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:27:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.132]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqA00-000BNl-1t for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:27:05 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6TCR3X4007962 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:27:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Bq9yk-000877-00 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:25:46 +0300 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:25:46 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... Message-ID: <20040729122546.GA25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <325101c45953$22f389c0$0f00a8c0@monster> <40D9DF14.3070808@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40D9DF14.3070808@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 09:50:44PM +0200, Milo wrote: > At timepoint 0, the program is executing "l". At timepoint 1, the > program is executing "g". And so on, until at timepoint 6, the program > is executing "q". You will see that although the codespace is 2D, the > TIME still follows a linear 0-1-2-3-4-5-6 line. I'd like to see a > language where code is executed in 2D time, that is, with timepoints > like (1,2), (5,3), (37,42), and, of course, (0,0) (which would be where > the program starts). Unfortunately, I don't actually know what I'm > talking about, which is why I hoped one of you guys would. Yes, the problem is, if you map that complex time into human-perceivable time, you're bound to get a one-dimensional timeline (at least that's how I perceive time). So whatever you do, your imaginary "execution time" won't correspond to actual time. You could, of course, implement a code stepper (kinda like a debugger) which lets you inspect the state at different "moments", which here corresponds to a point in plane. This, in turn, is just a parallel stepper for an indeterministic language with the additional restrictions that every instruction has exactly two possible outcomes and the outcome of first stepping in dimension X and then in dimension Y is always the same. It would be interesting to design a language to meet these restrictions, however... In relativity, where space and time are (to an extent) intraconvertible, complex time is commonly used to simplify calculations with complex coordinates -- or so I hear. This, too, requires treating the world as a stabile structure, where e.g. particles are spans from some point of space-time to another. On a more practical side, my friend implemented a toy adventure game where time could be "rewinded" and "fast-forwarded". Every time you rewinded time, the system would store "future events" as if you were reading a tape; every time time passed (either by playing or by fast-forward) these stored future events (if any) would be replayed and, if they conflicted with the state of the world, sentient beings would have a moment of "free will". Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 16:21:02 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqAn0-000CZ3-I4; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:17:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:17:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from send.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.133]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqAmj-000CYp-Mv for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:17:26 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by send.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6TDHP67021409 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:17:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqAlU-0003nI-00 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:16:08 +0300 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:16:08 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D Time Message-ID: <20040729131549.GB25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <1088097776.40db0df085006@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1088097776.40db0df085006@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 06:22:56PM +0100, Jeffrey Lee wrote: > repeat. > repeat :- > repeat. [...] > ad infinitum. Of course if 'repeat' wasn't a builtin term then a stack > overflow would eventually occur. I don't think so, IIUC you can do tail-call optimisation also in indeterministic languages. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 16:24:26 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqArG-000CiM-Fb; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:22:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:21:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.132]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqAqy-000Ci4-J2 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:21:50 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6TDLmWQ023376 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:21:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqApj-0003nX-00 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:20:31 +0300 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:20:31 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2D Time Message-ID: <20040729132031.GC25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <1088097776.40db0df085006@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> <40DB4B94.7000508@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40DB4B94.7000508@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 11:45:56PM +0200, Milo wrote: > file, I find assertz(Term), asserta(Term), and retract(Term), but no these do, in order: Add a fact (to the database of "truths"), after all other facts. Add a fact (to the database of "truths"), before all other facts. Remove a fact (from the database of "truths"). Predicates that are handled by these predicates have to be separately declared in the database: section. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 16:36:18 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqB2R-000D84-30; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:33:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:33:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.132]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqB2A-000D7p-9T for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:33:22 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6TDXMNY026695 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:33:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqB0v-0005Ay-00 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:32:05 +0300 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:32:05 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Whirl Message-ID: <20040729133204.GD25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Sun, Jul 11, 2004 at 01:18:17PM -0500, Sean Heber wrote: > Whirl is my second esoteric language. (My first is COW > http://www.bigzaphod.org/cow/) It only has two instructions: 0 and 1. > The instructions manipulate two rings (or wheels) of 12 commands each. Wow, there really seem to be quite a few of these "turing tarpit + stateful encoding" languages nowadays... Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 16:37:15 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqB5t-000DDX-VU; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:37:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:37:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.132]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqB5l-000DDH-6p for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:37:06 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6TDb40c027635; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:37:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqB4U-0005B9-00; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:35:46 +0300 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:35:46 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: Stephen Mosher Cc: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: non-algorithmic programming Message-ID: <20040729133545.GE25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Stephen Mosher , misc@esoteric.sange.fi References: <200407150627.18311.steve@wirelessisland.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200407150627.18311.steve@wirelessisland.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Jul 15, 2004 at 06:27:18AM -0300, Stephen Mosher wrote: > Basically, it's been brought to my attention recently that writing a program > and writing an algorithm are different things entirely. According to the > dictionary, algorithms must be deterministic. I think the distinction is Hm. Any indeterministic algorithm is equivalent to a deterministic algorithm that produces a list of results. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 16:52:49 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqBID-000DcO-NR; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:49:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:49:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from send.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.133]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqBHw-000Dc7-R4 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:49:41 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by send.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6TDnerK000533 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:49:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqBGh-0006Yd-00 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:48:23 +0300 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:48:23 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: Esoteric Lang ML Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] yet another bf interpreter Message-ID: <20040729134823.GG25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Esoteric Lang ML References: <20040614211043.GA5101@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040729092012.GH7365@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <20040729120222.GA11655@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040729120222.GA11655@kenny.sha-bang.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 02:02:22PM +0200, Sascha Wilde wrote: > > > but yabfi2 is at least on my GNU/Linux Athlon800 Box slightly faster > > > (around 10%) > > Do you know how yabfi2 compares in speed to straightforward compilers > > (like dbc) or optimising compilers (lice bfc)? > It does no real jit or any other elaborated black magic, all it does > is some caching for jumps and sequences. It's very trivial but I > found that most other bfi, at least those implemented in c, didn't do > anything like that, so I decided to publish it. Okay, I didn't want that to sound like an accusation or anything, I was just curious. Keep up the good work :) Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 20:50:47 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqF03-000Iud-Gm; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:47:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:47:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqEzm-000IuP-Nq for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:47:11 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslb101.osnanet.de [212.95.100.101]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0873E82B9 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:47:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BqEzh-0003IW-ND for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:47:05 +0200 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:47:05 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: Esoteric Lang ML Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] yet another bf interpreter Message-ID: <20040729174705.GA12659@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: Esoteric Lang ML References: <20040614211043.GA5101@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040729092012.GH7365@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <20040729120222.GA11655@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040729134823.GG25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040729134823.GG25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 04:48:23PM +0300, Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 02:02:22PM +0200, Sascha Wilde wrote: > > > > but yabfi2 is at least on my GNU/Linux Athlon800 Box slightly faster > > > > (around 10%) > > > Do you know how yabfi2 compares in speed to straightforward compilers > > > (like dbc) or optimising compilers (lice bfc)? > > It does no real jit or any other elaborated black magic, all it does > > is some caching for jumps and sequences. It's very trivial but I > > found that most other bfi, at least those implemented in c, didn't do > > anything like that, so I decided to publish it. > > Okay, I didn't want that to sound like an accusation or anything, Never mind. I didn't get that impression. > I was just curious. And I just wanted to point out, that one shouldn't expect to much from yabfi2. ;-) > Keep up the good work :) Thanks. -- Sascha Wilde "Liebet eure Feinde, vielleicht schadet das ihrem Ruf" (Stanislaw Jerzy Lec) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 29 23:45:31 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqHix-000MdI-Qa; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:41:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:41:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqHig-000Md3-EF for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:41:43 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdslb101.osnanet.de [212.95.100.101]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EED4372B7E for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:41:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1BqHie-0003dW-7X for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:41:40 +0200 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:41:40 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Message-ID: <20040729204140.GA12686@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040729101023.GO7365@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040729101023.GO7365@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 01:10:25PM +0300, Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 07:20:35AM -0700, Daniel. wrote: > > >I thought of this before and yes, if it turns out to be usefull or > > >necessary there will be an "extended" Argh with an unlimited > > >code/data array (still 80 cells width but unlimited length). > > I am not sure whether that will help. The fact that instructions can > > only modify data in their immediate vicinity, not data specified by > > address, means that any program that generates an arbitrary amount of > > data--and such programs are certainly necessary for > > Turing-completeness--must include self-replicating code, or at least > > code that generates code that generates code that generates... > > If we're just asking for TEq, I think this is not so bad: after all, > code is data and data is code, and brainfuck and Turing machines > lack non-local effects anyway. Especially the likeness to Turing > machines is clear: the stack corresponds to the state of the TM, A Turing-Mashine only needs to hold one current state at any time, I would think a unlimited stack would be wasted on that. At least if it would be it's only purpose. In fact I think it is (partly) needed to store the tape. > while the instructions correspond to symbols on the tape, and code > pointer corresponds to the tape head. And thats the problem, the only (virtual) pointer is a PCm, which pionts to the next Argh! instruction to execute. There is no native way to access random cells of data, the only data available to an Argh! instruction (besides the TOS) is the one located next to it selfe. But to emulate a turing mashine one must be able to access any part of the tape independent of current transition-rule (position in code, that is). > > The question is whether it will be possible to use self-replicating > > code to store, access, and modify arbitrarily large amounts of data, > > especially given the way data accesses are limited to the same > > vertical column as the code. Columns of instructions that grow and > > shrink to represent integer registers are the most promising > > approach, but I'm not going to mess with it now. > > I didn't have time to look at the language spec, Thats pity, because I think it's hard to understand the specific problems of Argh!s "memory management" without knowing it... > but it sounds like it would be relatively easy to emulate a tape > with the vertical dimension. Well "easy" is allways relative. ;-) But in fact im quite sertain that Aargh! (the extended Argh!) is TC. The Theory is to split the tape between the stack and the code/data space (like proposed bu Laurent Vogel) so that the "current" cell of the tape to operate on is on top of the stack. I proofed that it is possible to write arbitrary amounts of data from the stck to the code/data space in an answer to Milos challange earlier in this thread. To write this data back to the stack some trivial changes/enhancements are needed but the basic idea is to write selfmodifing code, that writes the data from the stack, as well as code to access the data into the code/data array. So the real question is: who will be the first to write a BF interpreter in Aargh! -- stay tuned... ;-) cheers sascha -- Sascha Wilde "Liebet eure Feinde, vielleicht schadet das ihrem Ruf" (Stanislaw Jerzy Lec) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 30 01:14:47 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqJ7X-000OYZ-I9; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:11:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:11:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqJ7E-000OYI-Hi for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:11:11 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC32B2FC185 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:11:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <410979C1.20201@dds.nl> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:27:13 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Whirl References: <20040729133204.GD25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Panu Kalliokoski wrote: >On Sun, Jul 11, 2004 at 01:18:17PM -0500, Sean Heber wrote: > > >>Whirl is my second esoteric language. (My first is COW >>http://www.bigzaphod.org/cow/) It only has two instructions: 0 and 1. >>The instructions manipulate two rings (or wheels) of 12 commands each. >> >> > >Wow, there really seem to be quite a few of these "turing tarpit + >stateful encoding" languages nowadays... > > Yep, the "despotic" (y'know, next step from imperative?) languages are pretty easy to come up with. The first true esoteric language, INTERCAL, was a despotic language and not even a very good one: though made to be "different", INTERCAL still showed the essential makings of a typical imperative language, such as random-access variables, subroutines, and even fairly good flow control once you understand how to use calculated RESUMEs. While the commands were rather strange, it is fairly easy to program once you get the hang. What is fun, however, is not to keep making the next new harder-and-nastier despotic language that has more horrible commands but the same essential structure, but rather to come of with completely new language concepts. The first language in a new paradigm is always interesting, but later languages based on the same idea quickly get boring. Languages like Befunge and Unlambda really introduced new ideas rather further mangling the command sets of old ones. There's so much Brainfuck variants that 90% of them are hardly ever even looked at. Argh!, while not a bad language, simply doesn't have the edge needed to capture the spotlight for very long. Even imperative languages can be done in interesting ways rather than just feeding your command set through a kitchen blender, for example, I really liked Kayak when it came out. I once started trying to bootstrap it, but the project has been delayed until I get some help from flying pigs. Unfortunately, coming up with new despotic languages is fairly easy, while coming up with a new paradigm becomes progressively harder as people keep using up the ones they see. I tried to suggest the extra-temporal-dimension thing, but since I didn't really know what I was talking about and apparantly neither did anyone else, it didn't get very far. Still, sooner or later someone will have to have a flash of inspiration. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 30 01:29:41 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqJMd-000Ow0-Je; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:27:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:26:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.21]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqJMM-000Ovm-FR for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:26:47 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBDDB364088 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:26:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <41097D6C.5040108@dds.nl> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:42:52 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... References: <325101c45953$22f389c0$0f00a8c0@monster> <40D9DF14.3070808@dds.nl> <20040729122546.GA25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Panu Kalliokoski wrote: >On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 09:50:44PM +0200, Milo wrote: > > >>At timepoint 0, the program is executing "l". At timepoint 1, the >>program is executing "g". And so on, until at timepoint 6, the >>program >>is executing "q". You will see that although the codespace is 2D, the >>TIME still follows a linear 0-1-2-3-4-5-6 line. I'd like to see a >>language where code is executed in 2D time, that is, with timepoints >>like (1,2), (5,3), (37,42), and, of course, (0,0) (which would be >>where >>the program starts). Unfortunately, I don't actually know what I'm >>talking about, which is why I hoped one of you guys would. >> >> > >Yes, the problem is, if you map that complex time into >human-perceivable >time, you're bound to get a one-dimensional timeline (at least that's >how I perceive time). So whatever you do, your imaginary "execution >time" won't correspond to actual time. Of course not. However, I repeat my earlier example. Even though computer monitors are two-dimensional and computer memory is one-dimensional, you can still write programs to abstractly calculate with three-dimensional objects, and you can write a raytracer that maps these objects to a two-dimensional picture that can be displayed on the screen - which is stored in a one-dimensional image file! You could even do the same with four-dimensional space, even though humans have no intuition of it. Of course, the three- or four-dimensional objects don't REALLY "exist" on your screen or in your memory, but you can still work with them almost as if they do. The same way, while two-dimensional time does not never will really exist in the underlying computer architecture, it might still be possible to work with it as if it does. But first, you need something to do with your two-dimensional time. >You could, of course, implement >a code stepper (kinda like a debugger) which lets you inspect the state >at different "moments", which here corresponds to a point in plane. >This, in turn, is just a parallel stepper for an indeterministic >language with the additional restrictions that every instruction has >exactly two possible outcomes and the outcome of first stepping in >dimension X and then in dimension Y is always the same. Indeterministic? Imperative languages are deterministic in 1D-time, I think they should also be in 2D-time. Also, you might need to try to stop thinking in terms of "step in direction X, *THEN* step in direction Y". While this is how the language would probably be interpreted, the specifications should not work like that, any more than a picture is defined by the file format you store it in. >It would be >interesting to design a language to meet these restrictions, however... Well, yes. That's what we're trying to do, isn't it? >In relativity, where space and time are (to an extent) >intraconvertible, >complex time is commonly used to simplify calculations with complex >coordinates -- or so I hear. This, too, requires treating the world as >a stabile structure, where e.g. particles are spans from some point of >space-time to another. I'm afraid I don't know much about physics. I wonder about the particle-spans. Exactly what are they, and how do you think the concept would translate into the instruction-opcodes of a 2D-time language? >On a more practical side, my friend implemented a toy adventure game >where time could be "rewinded" and "fast-forwarded". Every time you >rewinded time, the system would store "future events" as if you were >reading a tape; every time time passed (either by playing or by >fast-forward) these stored future events (if any) would be replayed >and, >if they conflicted with the state of the world, sentient beings would >have a moment of "free will". Ooh! Me want! Can I download this game somewhere? (However, it's not really related to the subject. While I don't really understand 2D-time yet, I'm pretty certain that backtrackable 1D-time is not the answer.) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 30 01:29:59 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqJNQ-000Ox9-Ux; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:27:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:27:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from www.eppg.com ([198.45.24.10] helo=grue.eppg.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqJN9-000OwQ-HN for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:27:36 +0300 Received: from [198.45.23.203] ([198.45.23.203]) by grue.eppg.com (8.12.11/8.9.3) with ESMTP id i6TMR3tr022761 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:27:03 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) In-Reply-To: <410979C1.20201@dds.nl> References: <20040729133204.GD25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <410979C1.20201@dds.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6ACDFEB6-E1AE-11D8-8760-000393DB390E@fifthace.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sean Heber Subject: [lang] Re: Whirl Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:27:03 -0500 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: sean@fifthace.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > Unfortunately, coming up with new despotic languages is fairly easy, > while coming up with a new paradigm becomes progressively harder as > people keep using up the ones they see. I tried to suggest the > extra-temporal-dimension thing, but since I didn't really know what I > was talking about and apparantly neither did anyone else, it didn't > get very far. An idea I had recently was to try to build a language that requires you to predict the future in order to program in it. I'm not sure if this is something along the lines you have in mind or not, but unfortunately that was about as far as I managed to get with the idea. As to how you would predict the future and what future you'd predict... No clue. But it was fun to think about and laugh at on my way home from work... I figured the name would be some play on Nostradamus. Yes, vague, but maybe someone else will get struck by an inspiration in how to pull it off. :-) l8r Sean -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 30 01:34:51 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqJRq-000P5a-TP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:32:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:32:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from www.eppg.com ([198.45.24.10] helo=grue.eppg.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqJRZ-000P4c-KW for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:32:10 +0300 Received: from [198.45.23.203] ([198.45.23.203]) by grue.eppg.com (8.12.11/8.9.3) with ESMTP id i6TMVcPw023118 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:31:38 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) In-Reply-To: <410979C1.20201@dds.nl> References: <20040729133204.GD25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <410979C1.20201@dds.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <0EC0EAEC-E1AF-11D8-8760-000393DB390E@fifthace.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sean Heber Subject: [lang] Re: Whirl Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:31:39 -0500 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: sean@fifthace.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >> Wow, there really seem to be quite a few of these "turing tarpit + >> stateful encoding" languages nowadays... >> > Yep, the "despotic" (y'know, next step from imperative?) languages are > pretty easy to come up with. The first true esoteric language, > INTERCAL, was a despotic language and not even a very good one: though > made to be "different", INTERCAL still Just curious, but where do these terms come from? "despotic" and "turing tarpit" and such? Google tells me things, but I'm wondering more along the lines of... how are people supposed to learn about them? I don't have any formal training in programming language design and my college CS program was not terribly good. So basically, everything I have done has been on my own. Therefore I do not have a clear idea of what has come before or how to phrase certain things. I suppose the reason I toss this out there is that my first fun language was COW, which turned out to be almost an exact clone of Brainfuck even though that was never intended. And now my second language Whirl was referred to as a "turning tarpit" language. I had no idea at the time that there were whole classifications for these things. I just did them because the idea came in the shower or something like that. Where can one catch up on these terms and the history of esoteric languages? l8r Sean -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 30 04:20:38 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqM1Z-0003AU-Eh; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 04:17:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 04:17:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.170.203] helo=mproxy.gmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqM1H-0003A5-MQ for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 04:17:13 +0300 Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 74so55812rnk for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.2.75 with SMTP id 75mr116309rnb; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:17:05 -0700 From: Rozencrantz the Sane To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Whirl In-Reply-To: <0EC0EAEC-E1AF-11D8-8760-000393DB390E@fifthace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20040729133204.GD25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <410979C1.20201@dds.nl> <0EC0EAEC-E1AF-11D8-8760-000393DB390E@fifthace.com> X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rozencrantz@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:31:39 -0500, Sean Heber wrote: > Just curious, but where do these terms come from? "despotic" and > "turing tarpit" and such? Google tells me things, but I'm wondering > more along the lines of... how are people supposed to learn about > them? I don't have any formal training in programming language design > and my college CS program was not terribly good. So basically, > everything I have done has been on my own. Therefore I do not have a > clear idea of what has come before or how to phrase certain things. > >Where can one catch up on these terms and the > history of esoteric languages? The best place to do this used to be Cat's Eye Technologies, which had definitions for such terms as "Fungeoid," "Tarpit," "Semi-Thue Grammar" and the like. Unfortunately, the site has since been stripped down to a list of projects, most of them dormant. I have been working, however, on a general purpose group of pages at http://en.wikipedia.org, though it is not yet as complete as I would like. -- ">:#,_$82*1+2*,52*,@ rekcaH egnufeB rehtonA tsuJ "Quidquid Latinae dictum sit altum sonatur" -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 30 11:47:34 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqSzt-000C2n-P1; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:44:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:43:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from turunen.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.221]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqSza-000C1t-CF for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:43:55 +0300 Received: from nummi.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.227] helo=nummi ident=mail) by turunen.ling.helsinki.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqSz4-0003gx-00 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:43:22 +0300 Received: from pkalliok by nummi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqSz4-00008f-00 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:43:22 +0300 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:43:22 +0300 From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] Argh! - new esoteric lang, first try. Message-ID: <20040730084322.GA527@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040621195410.GA4525@kenny.sha-bang.local> <007a01c45818$f83b45f0$490b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20040622081108.GA2040@kenny.sha-bang.local> <20040729101023.GO7365@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <20040729204140.GA12686@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040729204140.GA12686@kenny.sha-bang.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Panu A Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 10:41:40PM +0200, Sascha Wilde wrote: > > while the instructions correspond to symbols on the tape, and code > > pointer corresponds to the tape head. > And thats the problem, the only (virtual) pointer is a PCm, which > pionts to the next Argh! instruction to execute. There is no native > way to access random cells of data, the only data available to an > Argh! instruction (besides the TOS) is the one located next to it > selfe. But to emulate a turing mashine one must be able to access any > part of the tape independent of current transition-rule (position in > code, that is). You seem to have misunderstood me: I suggested that the _program_ of Aargh! is equivalent to the _tape_ of a Turing machine. Of course, there is no separate place to put a transition table, but I think it could be replicated all over the, say, left edge of the program. > Well "easy" is allways relative. ;-) But in fact im quite sertain > that Aargh! (the extended Argh!) is TC. The Theory is to split the > tape between the stack and the code/data space (like proposed bu > Laurent Vogel) so that the "current" cell of the tape to operate on is > on top of the stack. Actually, this is what I was proposing, but well. I saw the "rotate and replicate input to output" example, which should prove this already. As you say. > So the real question is: who will be the first to write a BF > interpreter in Aargh! -- stay tuned... ;-) I guess there will be a BF to Aargh! compiler first. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 30 12:30:44 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqTfl-000D7h-PU; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:27:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:27:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from turunen.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.221]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqTfT-000D6q-8T for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:27:12 +0300 Received: from nummi.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.227] helo=nummi ident=mail) by turunen.ling.helsinki.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqTew-000502-00; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:26:38 +0300 Received: from pkalliok by nummi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqTew-00009x-00; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:26:38 +0300 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:26:38 +0300 From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: Milo Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Whirl Message-ID: <20040730092633.GB527@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Milo , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040729133204.GD25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <410979C1.20201@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <410979C1.20201@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Panu A Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Fri, Jul 30, 2004 at 12:27:13AM +0200, Milo wrote: > Yep, the "despotic" (y'know, next step from imperative?) languages are > pretty easy to come up with. The first true esoteric language, > INTERCAL, was a despotic language and not even a very good one: though > made to be "different", INTERCAL still showed the essential makings of a > typical imperative language, such as random-access variables, > subroutines, and even fairly good flow control once you understand how > to use calculated RESUMEs. While the commands were rather strange, it > is fairly easy to program once you get the hang. Well, INTERCAL is just beauty, it is like a (horribly malformed but still usable) Dali flower vase compared to e.g. Unlambda, which is like chess. You can make esoteric languages for many purposes, and while I'm one of those (like you) who find the exploration of new ideas the "most important" reason, I acknowledge there are other legitimate ones. For example, the reason Befunge-93 became so popular was not just that it introduced new ideas. IIRC, Orthogonal introduced those ideas before Befunge, and many systems had similar ideas before Orthogonal. Rather, the success of Befunge-93 is largely due to its being a nice playground. It's easy to program, fun, and incredibly pretty to run in a graphical debugger. As for Whirl, I think it is similar to kids' "guess-my-code" games: hey, I have 000100100101011101001010101001010101010, guess why that means ,[] in bf? (By the way, what does the program do? There definitely should be a Unix utility for this...:) > What is fun, however, is not to keep making the next new > harder-and-nastier despotic language that has more horrible commands but > the same essential structure, but rather to come of with completely new > language concepts. The first language in a new paradigm is always IIRC, you were the one that appeared on the list with the attitude that you should "teach" us that the "goal" of esoteric languages was Turing equivalence. You "proved" that the point was not to build a language that can run itself. But while it is true that a language does not have to be TEq to be able to run itself, your little language was still more valuable, to me, as a new idea, than as a "proof" of what the "goal" of esoteric languages should be. That's why I asked you for an implementation: the fact that you can't do anything other with the language that to run itself does not imply that the language should not be paid proper attention to. (It *was* a novel idea, after all.) So why do we have all these new languages? I think many people here do their languages for exercise in compiler / interpreter design / programming. Some others do them as exercise in language design (like you and me). Some do them for beauty, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some do them for research in the theory of computation, some for playing with, some for the feedback of the community. I agree that some languages are more noteworthy than others, but to constrain esoteric language design to exploration of new language concepts is like saying, "the purpose of science is to explain sense-data. _There shall be no other science._" > interesting, but later languages based on the same idea quickly get > boring. Languages like Befunge and Unlambda really introduced new ideas > rather further mangling the command sets of old ones. There's so much > Brainfuck variants that 90% of them are hardly ever even looked at. > Argh!, while not a bad language, simply doesn't have the edge needed to > capture the spotlight for very long. Even imperative languages can be Argh! had more of attention because (by coincidence?) it happened to have "just enough for TEq". Because every language does self-modification in a different way, there are usually some lessons to be learned from every language that _requires_ self-modification. As for bf variants, many of them _are_ actually quite different from brainfuck. bf is quite like a NetBSD of programming languages: take it, add some, take something off, you end up with totally new (but usable) environment. > done in interesting ways rather than just feeding your command set > through a kitchen blender, for example, I really liked Kayak when it > came out. I once started trying to bootstrap it, but the project has > been delayed until I get some help from flying pigs. Flying pigs are unreliable. Nice to hear you're working with Kayak. That particular language (hey people! if you haven't heard of it, go see http://esoteric.sange.fi/essie2/download/kayak/) is a rather unique combination of beauty, new ideas, and programming challenge. I esteem it very highly, and were the essie2 entries judged through in some phase, I would probably rank it #1 in category 1. (Though clunk also comes very near.) > Unfortunately, coming up with new despotic languages is fairly easy, > while coming up with a new paradigm becomes progressively harder as > people keep using up the ones they see. I tried to suggest the > extra-temporal-dimension thing, but since I didn't really know what I > was talking about and apparantly neither did anyone else, it didn't get > very far. Chris also presented us with a slew of ideas before vanishing. :) It takes hard work to hone new ideas into proper languages. I still think that sets are underexplored as a basic building block of a language (there was someone here who presented us with a set-based language, what was that called?) and lately I've been thinking about intentional programming. Graphs, as a superset of trees, have had their concepts explored but what is still lacking is the _language_ that would present these ideas in a clean, approachable way. Chris' Granola/M (also from essie2) is a thrust in that direction, but has a lot of obfuscation. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 30 12:40:02 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqTpT-000DPW-DA; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:37:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:37:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from turunen.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.221]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqTpC-000DOm-E8 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:37:15 +0300 Received: from nummi.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.227] helo=nummi ident=mail) by turunen.ling.helsinki.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqTog-0005Kl-00; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:36:42 +0300 Received: from pkalliok by nummi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqTof-0000AC-00; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:36:41 +0300 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:36:41 +0300 From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: Sean Heber Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Whirl Message-ID: <20040730093635.GC527@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Sean Heber , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040729133204.GD25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <410979C1.20201@dds.nl> <6ACDFEB6-E1AE-11D8-8760-000393DB390E@fifthace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6ACDFEB6-E1AE-11D8-8760-000393DB390E@fifthace.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Panu A Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 05:27:03PM -0500, Sean Heber wrote: > to predict the future in order to program in it. I'm not sure if this > is something along the lines you have in mind or not, but unfortunately > that was about as far as I managed to get with the idea. As to how you I suggest something similar to particle collisions in quantum mechanics. You see, there's empty space. Suddenly there are two particles, an "ordinary" one (call it A) and an anti-particle (call it anti-A). This is because anti-A is the same particle as A, only it is coming from the future. You can't know where it is coming from, until anti-A collides with some ordinary particle (call it B): at that point, you know that B==A, and that this particular particle just had a zig-zag route in time-space. By the way, this is (IIUC) the basis of the over-speed-of-light transfer of information. But I might be wrong. Now, particles have state. This is similar to an ordinary programming language's variables. Of course, uninterfered with, a variable keeps its state (value). Now, if the variable was a product of the emergence of a variable and an anti-variable, what is its value? Hmm? Any guesses? That's right: it depends on the future. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 30 12:50:55 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqTzT-000DkE-Vp; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:47:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:47:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from turunen.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.221]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqTzD-000Dix-1J for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:47:35 +0300 Received: from nummi.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.227] helo=nummi ident=mail) by turunen.ling.helsinki.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqTyh-0005dS-00; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:47:03 +0300 Received: from pkalliok by nummi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqTyh-0000AW-00; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:47:03 +0300 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:47:03 +0300 From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: Sean Heber Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Whirl Message-ID: <20040730094702.GD527@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Sean Heber , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040729133204.GD25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <410979C1.20201@dds.nl> <0EC0EAEC-E1AF-11D8-8760-000393DB390E@fifthace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0EC0EAEC-E1AF-11D8-8760-000393DB390E@fifthace.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Panu A Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 05:31:39PM -0500, Sean Heber wrote: > Just curious, but where do these terms come from? "despotic" and > "turing tarpit" and such? Google tells me things, but I'm wondering "Despotic" was Milo's (broader) term for what (or part of which) I called "Turing tarpit + stateful encoding". He coined it, and explained it in his posting. As for "Turing tarpit", Cat's eye technologies' page is quite good, and terms like these have been used quite extensively in the discussion. You're supposed to learn them as you take part in the discussion. I'd say that's part of learning the art. :) The amount to learn is very big, and I was lost for a while when all these bloody mathematicians (Ben, Oerjan and John) discussed things... > language Whirl was referred to as a "turning tarpit" language. I had ^ This is the funniest Freudian slut I've seen for a long while :) I propose that we, hereafter, use the term "turning tarpit" to describe languages that are Turing tarpits but where the program is written in a stateful encoding. Rationale: because the number of instructions in Turing tarpits is finite (and in fact, very small - that's the purpose of Turing tarpits), the state is almost always described as an one-dimensional torus (or wrapping counter, whatever you want to call it). So, changing the state can be thought of as "turning" this torus. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 30 13:13:18 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqULe-000EKH-Qu; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:10:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:10:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from turunen.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.221]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqULN-000EIw-Ip for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:10:30 +0300 Received: from nummi.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.227] helo=nummi ident=mail) by turunen.ling.helsinki.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqUKt-0006YQ-00 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:09:59 +0300 Received: from pkalliok by nummi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqUKt-0000BV-00 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:09:59 +0300 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:09:59 +0300 From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... Message-ID: <20040730100958.GE527@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <325101c45953$22f389c0$0f00a8c0@monster> <40D9DF14.3070808@dds.nl> <20040729122546.GA25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <41097D6C.5040108@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41097D6C.5040108@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Panu A Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Fri, Jul 30, 2004 at 12:42:52AM +0200, Milo wrote: > >You could, of course, implement > >a code stepper (kinda like a debugger) which lets you inspect the state > >at different "moments", which here corresponds to a point in plane. > >This, in turn, is just a parallel stepper for an indeterministic > >language with the additional restrictions that every instruction has > >exactly two possible outcomes and the outcome of first stepping in > >dimension X and then in dimension Y is always the same. > Indeterministic? Imperative languages are deterministic in 1D-time, I > think they should also be in 2D-time. Also, you might need to try to I disagree. The reason imperative languages are deterministic in 1D-time is that they have only one direction to proceed to. Remember, imperative programs are precise descriptions of correlations of states in adjacent moments of time (time is discrete for programming languages); so if we don't have only one direction to proceed to, imperative programs become indeterministic. > stop thinking in terms of "step in direction X, *THEN* step in direction > Y". While this is how the language would probably be interpreted, the > specifications should not work like that, any more than a picture is > defined by the file format you store it in. Yes yes. Rather, the usage of "then" here corresponds to that of mathematical composition. As it is natural to read "sum . map (\x -> x*x)" as "map squaring, then sum", it is natural to read "step in +i direction combined with step in +1 direction" as "imaginary, then real". > >In relativity, where space and time are (to an extent) >intraconvertible, > >complex time is commonly used to simplify calculations with complex > >coordinates -- or so I hear. This, too, requires treating the world as > >a stabile structure, where e.g. particles are spans from some point of > >space-time to another. > I'm afraid I don't know much about physics. I wonder about the > particle-spans. Exactly what are they, and how do you think the concept > would translate into the instruction-opcodes of a 2D-time language? In no way, actually. The point is that you can choose whatever direction you want to observe the world in in complex time, and the directions of particles change accordingly. As for the particle-spans, that's easy. Think of the world as a four-dimensional structure (which it might not be, but that's irrelevant): three for space, one for time. Now, this structure contains everything that is, has been, or will ever be. In this structure, any object, say, me, has an area it takes. This are has probably three-dimensional extent, but it also has an extent in time: that from my creation to my extinction. So I'm a stable area in four-dimensional space: that area contains me, as I am, have been, and will ever be. Particles do not have three-dimensional extent, so they are rather like lines ("spans") in time-space. > >On a more practical side, my friend implemented a toy adventure game > >where time could be "rewinded" and "fast-forwarded". Every time you > >rewinded time, the system would store "future events" as if you were > >reading a tape; every time time passed (either by playing or by > >fast-forward) these stored future events (if any) would be replayed >and, > >if they conflicted with the state of the world, sentient beings would > >have a moment of "free will". > Ooh! Me want! Can I download this game somewhere? I'll ask my friend for that. I'm not sure he still has it. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 30 16:16:14 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqXC0-000IXZ-3U; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:13:00 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:12:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from otto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.21]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqXBg-000IXI-Vk for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:12:43 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by otto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F2E4364048 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:12:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <410A4D11.3050100@dds.nl> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:28:49 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... References: <325101c45953$22f389c0$0f00a8c0@monster> <40D9DF14.3070808@dds.nl> <20040729122546.GA25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <41097D6C.5040108@dds.nl> <20040730100958.GE527@ling.helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: >On Fri, Jul 30, 2004 at 12:42:52AM +0200, Milo wrote: > >I disagree. The reason imperative languages are deterministic in >1D-time is that they have only one direction to proceed to. Remember, >imperative programs are precise descriptions of correlations of states >in adjacent moments of time (time is discrete for programming >languages); so if we don't have only one direction to proceed to, >imperative programs become indeterministic. > Yep, I know that. But why can't there be a language where programs are precise descriptions of correlations of states in adjacent moments of 2D-time. >Yes yes. Rather, the usage of "then" here corresponds to that of >mathematical composition. As it is natural to read "sum . map (\x -> >x*x)" as "map squaring, then sum", it is natural to read "step in +i >direction combined with step in +1 direction" as "imaginary, then real". > The way I see it, in true 2D-time, the two time dimensions should be completely symmetric interchangeable. While this can happen with step-X-then-step-Y - for example, plane integration over a rectangle can be done by first integrating the X dimension and then the Y dimension, or vice versa - it is far from automatic. Furthermore, the official definition of rectangle integeration integration does not use double-integration at all, and translating not-rectangular-2D-shape-integration into double-integration requires some tricky manipulation. >In no way, actually. The point is that you can choose whatever >direction you want to observe the world in in complex time, and the >directions of particles change accordingly. > Huh? I understood about the particle-spans (I actually already knew that, I just don't understand the relation to 2D or complex time). >I'll ask my friend for that. I'm not sure he still has it. > > Thanks. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 31 08:33:13 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqmOz-000Dc6-FB; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:27:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:27:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from fep17.inet.fi ([194.251.242.242]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqmOi-000Dbq-Cr for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:27:09 +0300 Received: from humma ([80.222.35.54]) by fep17.inet.fi with ESMTP id <20040731052708.FMBR2301.fep17.inet.fi@humma> for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:27:08 +0300 Received: from atehwa by humma with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqmOh-0000Av-00 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:27:07 +0300 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:27:07 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... Message-ID: <20040731052641.GB598@humma.sange.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <325101c45953$22f389c0$0f00a8c0@monster> <40D9DF14.3070808@dds.nl> <20040729122546.GA25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <41097D6C.5040108@dds.nl> <20040730100958.GE527@ling.helsinki.fi> <410A4D11.3050100@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <410A4D11.3050100@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Fri, Jul 30, 2004 at 03:28:49PM +0200, Milo wrote: > >I disagree. The reason imperative languages are deterministic in > >1D-time is that they have only one direction to proceed to. Remember, > >imperative programs are precise descriptions of correlations of states > >in adjacent moments of time (time is discrete for programming > >languages); so if we don't have only one direction to proceed to, > >imperative programs become indeterministic. > Yep, I know that. But why can't there be a language where programs are > precise descriptions of correlations of states in adjacent moments of > 2D-time. Oh, they are. There's nothing "imprecise" about indeterminism. And I wasn't saying that the programming language was indeterministic *in* 2D-time; just that a deterministic language in 2D-time is *equivalent* to an indeterministic (ordinary) language with the additional restriction that ... blahblahblah. > The way I see it, in true 2D-time, the two time dimensions should be > completely symmetric interchangeable. While this can happen with (I had the impression that the talk about 2D-time was still about the complex plane, for which asymmetry is natural.) > >In no way, actually. The point is that you can choose whatever > >direction you want to observe the world in in complex time, and the > >directions of particles change accordingly. > Huh? I understood about the particle-spans (I actually already knew > that, I just don't understand the relation to 2D or complex time). I'm not an expert in this area and I don't have the time to dig the details up. Sorry. However, look at it this way. You know you can turn the space: just look at another direction. For example, suppose an ambulance goes by, from your face-side to your back-side. You turn to watch it, and suddenly it is going from your back-side to your face-side. So the coordinates and directions of things depend on your point (and angle) of view. Now, in relativity, it so happens that not only can you turn the space WRT any chosen two dimensions, you can also turn ("convert", in a way) between space and time. This is, in effect, changing the _speed_ of view. But it also happens to be so that the rules of turning between space and time are different from those of turning between two dimensions of space. And, IIRC, (I'm *not* sure about this) the imaginary coordinate of _space_ corresponds to the real coordinate of _time_ and vice versa. (Again, I'm not sure about this, but that's the reason why a "distance" in space-time (they might have had another word for this) is sqrt(x*x+y*y+z*z-t*t), note the asymmetry for t (time)? From this, we can also see that photons go always the shortest path, that is, the path whose distance is zero.) So, _if_ we have a particle with a complex coordinate, we can always choose our timeline so that its coordinate is real. (?) Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 31 09:17:50 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bqn79-000EXg-J6; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:13:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:12:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from fep17.inet.fi ([194.251.242.242]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Bqn6s-000EXS-QL for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:12:47 +0300 Received: from humma ([80.222.35.54]) by fep17.inet.fi with ESMTP id <20040731061246.FRFM2301.fep17.inet.fi@humma> for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:12:46 +0300 Received: from atehwa by humma with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Bqn6s-0000CR-00 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:12:46 +0300 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:12:45 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... Message-ID: <20040731061245.GD598@humma.sange.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <325101c45953$22f389c0$0f00a8c0@monster> <40D9DF14.3070808@dds.nl> <20040729122546.GA25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <41097D6C.5040108@dds.nl> <20040730100958.GE527@ling.helsinki.fi> <410A4D11.3050100@dds.nl> <20040731052641.GB598@humma.sange.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040731052641.GB598@humma.sange.fi> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 08:27:07AM +0300, Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > Now, in relativity, it so happens that not only can you turn the space > WRT any chosen two dimensions, you can also turn ("convert", in a way) > between space and time. This is, in effect, changing the _speed_ of I did some checking. Spacetime conversions are called "Lorenz transformations". The "point/angle/speed of view" is called an "inertial frame". > view. But it also happens to be so that the rules of turning between > space and time are different from those of turning between two > dimensions of space. And, IIRC, (I'm *not* sure about this) the > imaginary coordinate of _space_ corresponds to the real coordinate of > _time_ and vice versa. I seems to be that this is just a way of saying things: "Time is an imaginary spatial coordinate". But I found a note saying that this interpretation does not actually play well with GR. (?) > (Again, I'm not sure about this, but that's the reason why a "distance" > in space-time (they might have had another word for this) is The word is "interval". > So, _if_ we have a particle with a complex coordinate, we can always > choose our timeline so that its coordinate is real. (?) Now here I was hinting at something much more esoteric, which has something to do with simplifying some integrals in quantum mechanics. I don't know anything about this, so I won't talk anymore. :) Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 31 09:49:56 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqnZj-000FDE-Cw; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:42:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:42:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.170.202] helo=mproxy.gmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqnZS-000FCy-G9 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:42:19 +0300 Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 73so91511rnl for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.88.37 with SMTP id l37mr128025rnb; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:42:10 -0700 From: Rozencrantz the Sane To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [2D languages] Random thought... In-Reply-To: <20040731061245.GD598@humma.sange.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <325101c45953$22f389c0$0f00a8c0@monster> <40D9DF14.3070808@dds.nl> <20040729122546.GA25905@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> <41097D6C.5040108@dds.nl> <20040730100958.GE527@ling.helsinki.fi> <410A4D11.3050100@dds.nl> <20040731052641.GB598@humma.sange.fi> <20040731061245.GD598@humma.sange.fi> X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rozencrantz@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:12:45 +0300, Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 08:27:07AM +0300, Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > > Now, in relativity, it so happens that not only can you turn the space > > WRT any chosen two dimensions, you can also turn ("convert", in a way) > > between space and time. This is, in effect, changing the _speed_ of > > I did some checking. Spacetime conversions are called "Lorenz > transformations". The "point/angle/speed of view" is called an > "inertial frame". > > > view. But it also happens to be so that the rules of turning between > > space and time are different from those of turning between two > > dimensions of space. And, IIRC, (I'm *not* sure about this) the > > imaginary coordinate of _space_ corresponds to the real coordinate of > > _time_ and vice versa. > > I seems to be that this is just a way of saying things: "Time is an > imaginary spatial coordinate". But I found a note saying that this > interpretation does not actually play well with GR. (?) Ah, and there's the beauty of it. A purely abstract theoretical entity like a programming language doesn't have to play well with real physics, in fact it can be a complete bitch to GR and still have fun on its own. One of the structures I'm working on, as a result of this conversation, is one in which the 2 dimensions of Time can be navigated as though they were spacial dimensions, with the caveat that time must always move in *some* direction. There are some added complexities to my specific model, but since I'm using it for an Essie entry (possibly 2) I don't want to give too much away. -- ">:#,_$82*1+2*,52*,@ rekcaH egnufeB rehtonA tsuJ "Quidquid Latinae dictum sit altum sonatur" -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 31 20:08:36 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqxFx-0001v8-Lm; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:02:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:02:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mxout1.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.134]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BqxFe-0001uo-9i for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:02:33 +0300 Received: from hymn02.u.washington.edu (hymn02.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.156]) by mxout1.cac.washington.edu (8.13.0+UW04.06/8.13.0+UW04.06) with ESMTP id i6VH2RKL000624 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:02:28 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hymn02.u.washington.edu (8.13.0+UW04.06/8.13.0+UW04.06) with ESMTP id i6VH2QUd023485 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:02:27 -0700 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:02:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Thompson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Some work on my essie Message-ID: Received: from [24.19.153.118] by hymn02.u.washington.edu via HTTP; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:02:26 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: brianct@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Im planning on submitting an entry to the September essies (assuming I can make it in time). I fell in love with 2D languages, mostly befunge, but I thought that I could make something that felt more 'polished' and possibly introduced new programming concepts to the 2D realm. That being said, I've been working on a way to introduce one or both of lambda functions and procedures (aka methods, functions or subroutines) to a befunge-type language. I would like to stick to monocharacter sequences, and probably to the lower 128 ascii for the sake of portability (windows v. unix v. apple all have different ideas of what 128-255 are). This limits the number of possible instructions to about 97 or so. At the moment, I think Im fairly settled on the syntax for lambda functions, which I am planning on borrowing some syntax from Muriel-Smurf. Essentially, the programmer writes a string (1D) and then calls an 'interpreter' function which turns the string into a yet unnamed 2D array-ish structure which acts as a lambda function on the stack. Special characters within the string tell the interpreter how to manipulate it into a 2D array - similar to the turtle drawing program, it has character sequences (think "/>") to tell it when to turn while interpretting the string into a 2D array. As far as procedures go, Im working on a way to turn befunges fingerprinting scheme into a Y-like set of method calls. The biggest trouble is that the language I am designing doesn't have absolute coordinates because I am trying to maintain (for the sake of being esoteric, new, and hopefully interesting) the idea that all of the code/data plane need not be in one location, and the IP can't necessarily know exactly WHERE it is, because the boundary might change depending on external environments - more importantly, because the boundaries are not static, one left may not equal three rights, and as I write this sentence down I envision a hellish locale where the IP goes in a loop but each time it reaches a corner things look different. I have a feeling that in order to implement function calls, each version would have to react differently depending on the make-up of the underlying plane. In a straight-forward design where everything really IS in one place, it might make sense f! or the program interpreter to 'hunt' for the location of the corresponding function/variable, whereas in a much more esoteric and evil 'networked' version (with many regions of the plane in different files, hard drives, or even servers), each time a region is uploaded or changed it might have to 'register' the function and variable names associated with it. Borrowing from both befunge AND Y yields function names of the type NAME-1234 where NAME is a capitalized befunge-style fingerprint ID and 1234 is a unique number associated with each function within the fingerprint. Anyhow, since this is THE list for esoteric languages, I figured that this would be the right area to ask what people thought of the ideas. Please let me know - I love and adore feedback! Brian -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 31 23:47:07 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Br0fn-0006Kr-7N; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:41:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:41:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from fep18.inet.fi ([194.251.242.243]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Br0fS-0006Kb-5M for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:41:22 +0300 Received: from humma ([80.222.35.54]) by fep18.inet.fi with ESMTP id <20040731204121.ISRK299.fep18.inet.fi@humma> for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:41:21 +0300 Received: from atehwa by humma with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Br0fQ-0000Ai-00 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:41:20 +0300 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:41:20 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [essie4] new category Message-ID: <20040731204120.GA596@humma.sange.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040523i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang I forgot to mention to you guys, but I added still one category: the "anything-goes" category. This is category 5, as shown on http://esoteric.sange.fi/essie4/categories.html Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 02 13:12:45 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BrZiM-0002yH-VC; Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:06:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:06:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from turunen.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.221]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1BrZi5-0002xN-GG for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:06:26 +0300 Received: from nummi.ling.helsinki.fi ([128.214.78.227] helo=nummi ident=mail) by turunen.ling.helsinki.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BrZhY-0007iS-00; Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:05:52 +0300 Received: from pkalliok by nummi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BrZhS-0001Pa-00; Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:05:46 +0300 Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:05:46 +0300 From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: Brian Thompson Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Some work on my essie Message-ID: <20040802100546.GA5425@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Brian Thompson , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Panu A Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 10:02:26AM -0700, Brian Thompson wrote: > subroutines) to a befunge-type language. I would like to stick to > monocharacter sequences, and probably to the lower 128 ascii for the > sake of portability (windows v. unix v. apple all have different ideas > of what 128-255 are). This limits the number of possible instructions > to about 97 or so. Bah, I think it is high time to start to make Unicode-based character cell languages. I think the one place where there is some definite need for Unicode is this. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 02 19:42:48 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Brfnx-000FCm-Ru; Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:36:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:36:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pluto.isd-holland.nl ([62.221.254.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Brfng-000FCW-7m for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:36:37 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (62-221-196-6.dsl.uwadslprovider.nl [62.221.196.6]) by pluto.isd-holland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E20E2FC6CA for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2004 18:36:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <410E7155.9080806@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 18:52:37 +0200 From: Milo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win95; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Some work on my essie References: <20040802100546.GA5425@ling.helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: >On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 10:02:26AM -0700, Brian Thompson wrote: > > >>subroutines) to a befunge-type language. I would like to stick to >>monocharacter sequences, and probably to the lower 128 ascii for the >>sake of portability (windows v. unix v. apple all have different ideas >>of what 128-255 are). This limits the number of possible instructions >>to about 97 or so. >> >> > >Bah, I think it is high time to start to make Unicode-based character >cell languages. I think the one place where there is some definite need >for Unicode is this. > My problem with Unicode is that I don't have the characters on my keyboard. I don't want to go hunting for character codes for every instruction in the program. And what language would already need more than 95 instructions? Unicode could be used to make the characters more intuitive, but since when have we cared about that? -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 02 21:05:37 2004 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Brh6l-000IDK-Ho; Mon, 02 Aug 2004 21:00:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 02 Aug 2004 21:00:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail1.kontent.de ([81.88.34.36] ident=30) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1Brh6T-000ID2-Gj for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 02 Aug 2004 21:00:07 +0300 Received: from kenny.sha-bang.de (xdsla238.osnanet.de [212.95.101.238]) by Mail1.KONTENT.De (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73E1938A487 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:00:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from wilde by kenny.sha-bang.de with local (Kenny MUA v.0307044.20) ID 1Brh6R-0000mJ-K2 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:00:03 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:00:03 +0200 From: Sascha Wilde To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Some work on my essie Message-ID: <20040802180003.GB2907@kenny.sha-bang.local> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20040802100546.GA5425@ling.helsinki.fi> <410E7155.9080806@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <410E7155.9080806@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: wilde@sha-bang.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Mon, Aug 02, 2004 at 06:52:37PM +0200, Milo wrote: > Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > > >On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 10:02:26AM -0700, Brian Thompson wrote: > > > > > >>subroutines) to a befunge-type language. I would like to stick to > >>monocharacter sequences, and probably to the lower 128 ascii for the > >>sake of portability (windows v. unix v. apple all have different ideas > >>of what 128-255 are). This limits the number of possible instructions > >>to about 97 or so. > >> > >> > > > >Bah, I think it is high time to start to make Unicode-based character > >cell languages. I think the one place where there is some definite need > >for Unicode is this. > > > My problem with Unicode is that I don't have the characters on my > keyboard. I don't want to go hunting for character codes for every > instruction in the program. Who needs that? One could still calculate the needed character code at runtime and execute the instruction after generating it... ;-) scnr sascha -- Sascha Wilde Hi! I'm a .signature *virus*! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread! -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc]