From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 11 00:12:37 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aids-000J7G-O7; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:07:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:07:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from dsl-hkigw3k1a.dial.inet.fi ([80.222.42.26] helo=maim) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aid8-000J4e-3B for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:07:06 +0300 Received: from atehwa by maim with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19aic8-0000Fu-00; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:06:04 +0300 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:06:04 +0300 From: Panu To: Orjan Johansen Cc: Esoteric Languages List Subject: [lang] Re: Monads and continuation passing style Message-ID: <20030710210604.GF877@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Orjan Johansen , Esoteric Languages List References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Panu X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19aid8-000J4e-3B*hFzBI7Nu7Q.* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19aids-000J7G-O7*Uv69PTm.vMQ* On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 05:32:25PM +0200, Orjan Johansen wrote: > It occured to me that when introducing monadic typing to Io, _no_ > syntactic change is required. I'm not exactly sure about what you mean by "monadic typing", if you mean that we can have first-order parametric types with associated operations that depend on the context, that might well be possible by the language features of Io (which I don't know)... But I guess you rather mean that the Io ";" operator is strong enough to do most, if not all, of what Haskell's ">>=" operator can do. However, then the "intelligence" of ">>=" gets put into the primary monadic operations, which means types cannot be made into monads "afterwards". > passing style. What I didn't know, but realized yesterday, was that > continuation passing style itself is not limited to handle continuations, > but can be used to handle any monad. I can't come up with ways to handle anything other than state and flow control monads. How does one implement indeterminism, parser, and parametric monads? Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 22 23:01:43 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19f3Ff-00009K-S9; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:56:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:56:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from cloudburst.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.119.66] ident=[wWRiZNhXgX83kr33E4XjHtfGFO866fbC]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19f3FL-00008J-IO for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:56:27 +0300 Received: from c9.dial.umist.ac.uk ([194.66.31.9]) by cloudburst.umist.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19f3FD-0003Tb-Ms for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:56:20 +0100 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:55:57 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: Jeffrey Lee To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] FBBI bugs, Funge spec queries, and other fungi Message-ID: X-X-Sender: ftpquo01@www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19f3FL-00008J-IO*XxzEMct8qh2* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: me@phlamethrower.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19f3Ff-00009K-S9*lN9/Kz59jUc* Hi, I've found a few bugs in FBBI: * The function stack_pop_string() will cut off the string terminator if the terminator isn't stored on the stack; i.e. the program "tini"i will try loading the file 'ini' * The compressed text mode of 'o' cuts out all the spaces, instead of just end-of-line spaces * There's something very weird going on in the fingerprint unload code; unloading a fingerprint doesn't seem to do anything. E.g. "AMOR"4()I pushes a 1 onto the stack instead of causing a reflection. I've checked the source code myself and can't work out why the semantics are remaining loaded. * The i instruction reports the number of newline characters in the file, but not the number of actual lines (i.e. newlines+1). Trying to save the file using the o instruction will then cut the last line off of the file, because of this difference. * Passing a negative argument to k will cause a very long wait as the for(;c;c--) loop in the k function essentially treats the value as an unsigned number. Instead it should probably iterate zero times, or cause a reflection to flag it as an error or something. * There's a bug of some kind in the wrapping function; the program # <@ either takes ages to run or gets stuck in an infinite loop somewhere. I'm also looking to pick your brain on a couple of the finer points of the Funge-98 spec: * Which way is 'up' in Trefunge? The spec is actually contradictory on the point. In the main text it lists h as setting the delta to (0,0,1), while the table of instructions at the end lists it as (0,0,-1) * What exactly should the { and } instructions do if n is zero or negative? The spec suggests that {/} should always create/delete a stack, but FBBI only does it if n>=0 Also where can I obtain a copy of the Befunge Diagnostics talked about in the FBBI documentation? I've recently been writing my own Funge interpreter and so would find them useful for testing. Cheers, Jeffrey -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 23 01:53:15 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19f5xF-000BIN-FT; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 01:49:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jul 2003 01:49:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd3mo1so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19f5wu-000BHP-Uj for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 01:49:37 +0300 Received: from pd2mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.108]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HIG00G7D7EHTA@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:49:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml1so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml1so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.145]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HIG0022S7EH9F@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:49:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kallisti.ca (h24-77-149-93.wp.shawcable.net [24.77.149.93]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with SMTP id <0HIG005667EGUX@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:49:29 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:51:20 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: [lang] Re: FBBI bugs, Funge spec queries, and other fungi In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20030722175120.566eafc7.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies - http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19f5wu-000BHP-Uj*cRXu7QnINs6* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19f5xF-000BIN-FT*M9Q0S3Be.P.* On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:55:57 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Jeffrey Lee wrote: > Hi, Hi. > I've found a few bugs in FBBI: Well, I need to brush up on my C coding skills anyway. I'm in the process of moving right now, so I might not be able to get to these for a couple of weeks still. > * The function stack_pop_string() will cut off the string terminator > if the terminator isn't stored on the stack; i.e. the program "tini"i > will try loading the file 'ini' > * The compressed text mode of 'o' cuts out all the spaces, instead of > just end-of-line spaces These should be easy fixes. > * There's something very weird going on in the fingerprint unload > code; unloading a fingerprint doesn't seem to do anything. E.g. > "AMOR"4()I pushes a 1 onto the stack instead of causing a reflection. > I've checked the source code myself and can't work out why the > semantics are remaining loaded. That it does. I'll have a look at it. > * The i instruction reports the number of newline characters in the > file, but not the number of actual lines (i.e. newlines+1). Trying to > save the file using the o instruction will then cut the last line off > of the file, because of this difference. Should also be an easy fix. > * Passing a negative argument to k will cause a very long wait as the > for(;c;c--) loop in the k function essentially treats the value as an > unsigned number. Instead it should probably iterate zero times, or > cause a reflection to flag it as an error or something. A negative argument to k is undefined by the spec. FBBI should probably do something more intelligent than treating k as unsigned long, but it's not required to. > * There's a bug of some kind in the wrapping function; the program # > <@ either takes ages to run or gets stuck in an infinite loop > somewhere. This seems to happen when # is at an edge of the playfield. Adding a space before the # seems to yield the expected behaviour, but that's just a workaround. I don't know how easy this will be to fix. It's a good excuse for clarifying/simplifying/eliminating the definitions of wrapping + space-skipping + behaviour of #, next time around. > I'm also looking to pick your brain on a couple of the finer points of > the Funge-98 spec: > > * Which way is 'up' in Trefunge? The spec is actually contradictory on > the point. In the main text it lists h as setting the delta to > (0,0,1), while the table of instructions at the end lists it as > (0,0,-1) -1 is up. Where the spec implies elsewise, it is in error. > * What exactly should the { and } instructions do if n is zero > or negative? For { : "If n is negative, |n| zeroes are pushed onto the SOSS." For } : "If n is negative, |n| cells are popped off of the (original) SOSS." From the spec. > The spec suggests that {/} should always create/delete a > stack, but FBBI only does it if n>=0 That's a bug then. > Also where can I obtain a copy of the Befunge Diagnostics talked about > in the FBBI documentation? I've recently been writing my own Funge > interpreter and so would find them useful for testing. They should be around somewhere. I'll see if I can dig them up after I move. > Cheers, > > Jeffrey Thanks for the bug report! -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 23 03:29:51 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19f7SV-000HrK-Ub; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 03:26:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Jul 2003 03:26:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd3mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19f7SB-000HqN-G7 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 03:25:59 +0300 Received: from pd4mr4so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr4so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.215]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HIG00IGDBV4UC@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:25:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml4so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml4so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.148]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HIG00LN6BV3JK@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:25:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kallisti.ca (h24-77-149-93.wp.shawcable.net [24.77.149.93]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with SMTP id <0HIG004BVBV2FE@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:25:51 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:27:42 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: [lang] Re: FBBI bugs, Funge spec queries, and other fungi In-reply-to: <20030722175120.566eafc7.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20030722192742.058c6400.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies - http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ScTQ0iwDX5QmHXkTdayKYQ)" References: <20030722175120.566eafc7.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19f7SB-000HqN-G7*abaQMeQI12o* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19f7SV-000HrK-Ub*xHowoGN8ZVs* This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ScTQ0iwDX5QmHXkTdayKYQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT See attached patch and notes below. On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:51:20 -0500 Chris Pressey wrote: > > * The function stack_pop_string() will cut off the string terminator > > if the terminator isn't stored on the stack; i.e. the program > > "tini"i will try loading the file 'ini' Should be fixed now. > > * The compressed text mode of 'o' cuts out all the spaces, instead > > of just end-of-line spaces Fixed. Actually the non-compressed-text mode of o was a bit wonky as well, that's fixed too. > > * The i instruction reports the number of newline characters in the > > file, but not the number of actual lines (i.e. newlines+1). Trying > > to save the file using the o instruction will then cut the last line > > off of the file, because of this difference. > > Should also be an easy fix. Should be fixed now. > > The spec suggests that {/} should always create/delete a > > stack, but FBBI only does it if n>=0 > > That's a bug then. Should also be fixed. Still the issues with fingerprints and wrapping, but the simpler stuff should be taken care of with the attached patch. -Chris --Boundary_(ID_ScTQ0iwDX5QmHXkTdayKYQ) Content-type: text/plain; name=fbbi-2003.0722.patch Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: attachment; filename=fbbi-2003.0722.patch --- src/bf98spc.c Wed Mar 26 11:56:19 2003 +++ src/bf98spc.c Tue Jul 22 19:12:22 2003 @@ -3,6 +3,7 @@ Dynamic Befunge-Space ANSI C Functions - source. v0.98 Oct 1 1998 Chris Pressey v0.98a Mar 26 2003 Chris Pressey + v2003.0722 Chris Pressey Copyright (c)1998, 2001, 2003, Cat's Eye Technologies. All rights reserved. @@ -288,6 +289,7 @@ } } } + row++; /* bugfix 2003.0722 correct number of lines (= newlines + 1) */ return 1; } @@ -310,11 +312,24 @@ spccnt++; a = bfspace_fetch(p, col++, row); } - if (((flags & (long)0x1) != (long)0x1) && ((col-x) < w)) + /* begin bugfix 2003.0722: compressed vs non-compressed text output */ + if ((col-x) >= w) /* if we are past the right edge */ { + if ((flags & (long)0x1) == (long)0x1) /* and we are compressing text */ + { + /* print nothing */ + } else + { + /* print spaces only */ + for(i=0;i= w) { col = x; --- src/f98i.c Wed Mar 26 11:56:19 2003 +++ src/f98i.c Tue Jul 22 19:19:41 2003 @@ -3,6 +3,7 @@ Funge-98 Instructions - source. v0.98 Oct 1 1998 Chris Pressey v0.98a Mar 26 2003 Chris Pressey + v2003.0722 Chris Pressey Copyright (c)1998, 2001, 2003, Cat's Eye Technologies. All rights reserved. @@ -219,17 +220,15 @@ i->a++; } } - } else + } /* bugfix 2003.0722: { should still push a new stack on the SS */ + if (ip_allocstack(i)) { - if (ip_allocstack(i)) - { - if (i->a > 0) ip_transfer(i, i->a); - ip_pushoffset(i, -1, i->sx); - ip_pushoffset(i, -1, i->sy); - i->sx = i->x + i->dx; - i->sy = i->y + i->dy; - } else ip_reverse(i); - } + if (i->a > 0) ip_transfer(i, i->a); + ip_pushoffset(i, -1, i->sx); + ip_pushoffset(i, -1, i->sy); + i->sx = i->x + i->dx; + i->sy = i->y + i->dy; + } else ip_reverse(i); } void fi_end (ip * i) @@ -246,17 +245,15 @@ i->a++; } } - } else - { - /* check if there *is* a SOSS first */ - if(ip_stacks_measure(i) > 1) - { - i->sy = ip_popoffset(i, -1); - i->sx = ip_popoffset(i, -1); - if (i->a > 0) ip_transfer(i, -1 * i->a); - ip_freestack(i); - } else ip_reverse(i); - } + } /* bugfix 2003.0722: } should still attempt to pop the TOSS */ + /* check if there *is* a SOSS first */ + if(ip_stacks_measure(i) > 1) + { + i->sy = ip_popoffset(i, -1); + i->sx = ip_popoffset(i, -1); + if (i->a > 0) ip_transfer(i, -1 * i->a); + ip_freestack(i); + } else ip_reverse(i); } void fi_in (ip * i) --- src/f98stack.c Wed Mar 26 11:56:19 2003 +++ src/f98stack.c Tue Jul 22 19:10:49 2003 @@ -3,6 +3,7 @@ Stack ANSI C Functions - source. v0.98 Oct 1 1998 Chris Pressey v0.98a Mar 26 2003 Chris Pressey + v2003.0722 Chris Pressey Copyright (c)1998, 2001, 2003, Cat's Eye Technologies. All rights reserved. @@ -112,6 +113,7 @@ str[i++] = *(char *)x; x = stack_pop(s); } + if (s->sp == -1) i++; /* bugfix 2003.0722: EOS as string terminator */ str[i] = (char)'\0'; } --Boundary_(ID_ScTQ0iwDX5QmHXkTdayKYQ)-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 24 23:43:42 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fmsE-0009D3-Iq; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:39:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:39:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from cloudburst.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.119.66] ident=[CN+7LscFNEODSHYI/YobUdyaXMMqYcpk]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fmru-0009C7-JK for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:39:18 +0300 Received: from c12.dial.umist.ac.uk ([194.66.31.12]) by cloudburst.umist.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19fmrn-0005xx-NF for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:39:12 +0100 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:38:49 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: Jeffrey Lee To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: FBBI bugs, Funge spec queries, and other fungi In-Reply-To: <20030722192742.058c6400.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Message-ID: References: <20030722175120.566eafc7.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <20030722192742.058c6400.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> X-X-Sender: ftpquo01@www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19fmru-0009C7-JK*L8Hvj62x7WI* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: me@phlamethrower.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19fmsE-0009D3-Iq*EhneBa/Z08Y* On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Chris Pressey wrote: > See attached patch and notes below. Thanks for the info & patch. Is a revised version of the Funge spec on the cards, in order to clarify the unclear areas? Hope the move goes well! Cheers, Jeffrey -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Jul 27 22:18:54 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19gqyf-000Nx7-0A; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:14:41 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:14:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from deluge.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.120.66] ident=[dz9S15NuAWTtTsbK6zqb4dFfiZqebHAr]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19gqyK-000Nw7-9i for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:14:20 +0300 Received: from c30.dial.umist.ac.uk ([194.66.31.30]) by deluge.umist.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19gqyC-0003O9-Li for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:14:13 +0100 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:13:47 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) From: Jeffrey Lee To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: FBBI bugs, Funge spec queries, and other fungi In-Reply-To: <20030722192742.058c6400.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Message-ID: References: <20030722175120.566eafc7.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <20030722192742.058c6400.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> X-X-Sender: ftpquo01@www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="810590-18855-1059333227=:-75994463" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19gqyK-000Nw7-9i*.zm3KxJ1vJA* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: me@phlamethrower.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19gqyf-000Nx7-0A*YSSJvZc4pTk* This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --810590-18855-1059333227=:-75994463 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Chris Pressey wrote: > Still the issues with fingerprints and wrapping, but the simpler stuff > should be taken care of with the attached patch. > Unfortunately there were some bugs in the pop string and file load bits of your patch. Hope you don't mind me bug-fixing your code for you, but I've included a new patch to fix: * The pop string bug (End of stack as string terminator) * The file load code (Report newlines+1 instead of newlines) * The semantic unload code (Actually a bug in the semantic load code stopping the semantics from being saved) * The infinite loop in the wrapping code Although there may still be issues with using # at the edge of fungespace when in Befunge-93 mode (i.e. a # at the right edge will wrap to x=0 instead of x=1) Cheers, Jeffrey --810590-18855-1059333227=:-75994463 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; name="Diff.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: FBBI patch Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Diff.txt" LS0tIHNyYy9iZjk4c3BjLmMJU2F0IEp1bCAyNiAxNDozNToyMiAyMDAzDQor Kysgc3JjL2JmOThzcGMuYwlTYXQgSnVsIDI2IDE1OjExOjE2IDIwMDMNCkBA IC0yODksNyArMjg5LDcgQEANCiAgICAgICB9DQogICAgIH0NCiAgIH0NCi0g IHJvdysrOyAvKiBidWdmaXggMjAwMy4wNzIyIGNvcnJlY3QgbnVtYmVyIG9m IGxpbmVzICg9IG5ld2xpbmVzICsgMSkgKi8NCisgICgqaCkrKzsgLyogYnVn Zml4IDIwMDMuMDcyNiBjb3JyZWN0IG51bWJlciBvZiBsaW5lcyAoPSBuZXds aW5lcyArIDEpICovDQogICByZXR1cm4gMTsNCiB9DQogDQotLS0gc3JjL2Y5 OGZwLmMJV2VkIE1hciAyNiAxODo1NjoxOCAyMDAzDQorKysgc3JjL2Y5OGZw LmMJU2F0IEp1bCAyNiAxNToyOToxMiAyMDAzDQpAQCAtNjQsNyArNjQsNyBA QA0KIA0KIHZvaWQgc2F2ZV9zZW1hbnRpY3MoaXAgKiBpLCBjaGFyIGMpIC8q IHNhdmUgdGhlIHNlbWFudGljcyBvZiBpbnN0cnVjdGlvbiBjICovDQogew0K LSAgaWYgKChjID49ICdBJykgJiYgKGMgPD0gJ1onKSAmJiAoaS0+ZmluZ2xl dltjLSdBJ10gPiAwKSkNCisgIGlmICgoYyA+PSAnQScpICYmIChjIDw9ICda JykpIC8qIGJ1Z2ZpeCAyMDAzLjA3MjYgRW5zdXJlIHNlbWFudGljcyBhcmUg c2F2ZWQgKi8NCiAgICAgaS0+ZmluZ2luc1tjLSdBJ11bKytpLT5maW5nbGV2 W2MtJ0EnXV0gPSBpbnN0YWJsZVtjLScgJ107DQogfQ0KIA0KLS0tIHNyYy9m OThpcC5jCVdlZCBNYXIgMjYgMTg6NTY6MTggMjAwMw0KKysrIHNyYy9mOThp cC5jCVNhdCBKdWwgMjYgMTU6MTk6MDEgMjAwMw0KQEAgLTk0LDcgKzk0LDgg QEANCiB2b2lkIGlwX2JhY2t0cmFjayhpcCAqIGkpDQogew0KICAgaXBfcmV2 ZXJzZShpKTsNCi0gIGlwX21hcmNoKGkpOw0KKyAgd2hpbGUgKCFiZnNwYWNl X2luYm91bmRzKGktPmJzLCBpLT54LCBpLT55KSkNCisgICAgaXBfbWFyY2go aSk7IC8qIGJ1Z2ZpeCAyMDAzLjA3MjYgTWFyY2ggYmFjayB1bnRpbCBpbnNp ZGUgZnVuZ2VzcGFjZSB0byBjb3BlIHdpdGggZWRnZS1vZi1zcGFjZSAjLCBq LCBldGMuICovDQogDQogICB3aGlsZSAoYmZzcGFjZV9pbmJvdW5kcyhpLT5i cywgaS0+eCwgaS0+eSkpDQogICAgIGlwX21hcmNoKGkpOw0KLS0tIHNyYy9m OThzdGFjay5jCVNhdCBKdWwgMjYgMTQ6MzU6MjIgMjAwMw0KKysrIHNyYy9m OThzdGFjay5jCVNhdCBKdWwgMjYgMTU6MTM6MTUgMjAwMw0KQEAgLTExMyw3 ICsxMTMsOCBAQA0KICAgICBzdHJbaSsrXSA9ICooY2hhciAqKXg7DQogICAg IHggPSBzdGFja19wb3Aocyk7DQogICB9DQotICBpZiAocy0+c3AgPT0gLTEp IGkrKzsgLyogYnVnZml4IDIwMDMuMDcyMjogRU9TIGFzIHN0cmluZyB0ZXJt aW5hdG9yICovDQorICBpZiAocy0+c3AgPT0gLTEpDQorICAgIHN0cltpKytd ID0gKihjaGFyICopeDsgLyogYnVnZml4IDIwMDMuMDcyNjogRU9TIGFzIHN0 cmluZyB0ZXJtaW5hdG9yICovDQogICBzdHJbaV0gPSAoY2hhciknXDAnOw0K IH0NCg0K --810590-18855-1059333227=:-75994463-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 28 08:05:12 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19h08L-0009zB-0G; 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Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:00:49 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:02:52 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: [lang] Re: FBBI bugs, Funge spec queries, and other fungi In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20030728000252.178b143c.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies - http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20030722175120.566eafc7.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <20030722192742.058c6400.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19h080-0009yD-Ek*o.sTBQp2z5Y* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19h08L-0009zB-0G*aqsrg0Qei.6* On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:13:47 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Jeffrey Lee wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Chris Pressey wrote: > > > Still the issues with fingerprints and wrapping, but the simpler > > stuff should be taken care of with the attached patch. > > > > Unfortunately there were some bugs in the pop string and file load > bits of your patch. Hope you don't mind me bug-fixing your code for > you, but I've included a new patch to fix: Not at all, that's one thing open-source is so nice for! Thanks! A revision/errata document for the 98 spec will appear, eventually. A 103 spec would be nice too, maybe if I find some spare time... The thing is that 98 is about as refined as funge gets - anything more would involve a significant detour, and while there's no shortage of them, none of them really scream "funge". Anyway. Catch you on the flipside... -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 29 19:03:25 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hWqx-000JAz-Re; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:57:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:57:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67] ident=[cKOr80/sk50PZXRfpfeHO2ijlj1n5kCj]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hWqd-000JA0-Ex for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:57:11 +0300 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:41674 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[zjjCP4kbb2dwtuvqAYQfqHWOuzYv0odC]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:56:57 +0200 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:56:55 +0200 (CEST) From: Orjan Johansen To: Esoteric Languages List Subject: [lang] Re: Monads and continuation passing style In-Reply-To: <20030710210604.GF877@ling.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: References: <20030710210604.GF877@ling.helsinki.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19hWqd-000JA0-Ex*haFbRPwx1d.* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19hWqx-000JAz-Re*K4d5HcaONcE* On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Panu wrote: > On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 05:32:25PM +0200, Orjan Johansen wrote: > > It occured to me that when introducing monadic typing to Io, _no_ > > syntactic change is required. > > I'm not exactly sure about what you mean by "monadic typing", if you > mean that we can have first-order parametric types with associated > operations that depend on the context, that might well be possible by > the language features of Io (which I don't know)... I had the impression that Io is dynamically typed. I was thinking of what happened if you translate Io to Haskell. If you continue to use continuation passing style, you can do it more or less mechanically: -> ... ; becomes \ ... -> ; alone becomes $ declare ... : ... becomes ... =3D ... For pure functions this works automatically. What I discovered is that the same works for monadic operations if you define your primitive operations to incorporate >>=3D, as you say. I think what this amounts to mathematically is to use a Cont monad transformer on your monad, to lift it into continuation passing style. This ignores the newtype that is necessary if Haskell is to be able to use the result as a monad. > But I guess you rather mean that the Io ";" operator is strong enough to > do most, if not all, of what Haskell's ">>=3D" operator can do. However, > then the "intelligence" of ">>=3D" gets put into the primary monadic > operations, which means types cannot be made into monads "afterwards". I think the monad transformer idea shows that you can wrap it back into a haskell Monad afterwards, namely a continuation monad. > > passing style. What I didn't know, but realized yesterday, was that > > continuation passing style itself is not limited to handle continuation= s, > > but can be used to handle any monad. > > I can't come up with ways to handle anything other than state and flow > control monads. How does one implement indeterminism, parser, and > parametric monads? I don't know anything about parser or parametric monads, but for indeterminism I understand the problem is that the primary monadic function takes monadic values as arguments. Let's say we have a function oneOf :: Ind b -> Ind b -> Ind b In this case I see two solutions. One in the spirit of Io is to make the operation analogous to the Io boolean tests, which take two parameterless continuations as argument: oneOf1 :: Ind A -> Ind A -> Ind A (I use A here to indicate the common type which all continuations "eventually" return.) Whoops, this is just the old oneOf again, with a slightly restricted type. You can use it directly, but if you want to express (oneOf a b) >>=3D f in continuation passing style, it becomes something like oneOf (a $ f) (b $ f) This is the same as in Io: If you want your conditional branches to share a final continuation, you must provide it explicitly to both. Another solution is to use the fact that Ind b in ordinary style corresponds to (b -> Ind A) -> Ind A in continuation passing style, so then oneOf2 :: ((b -> Ind A) -> Ind A) -> ((b -> Ind A) -> Ind A) -> (b -> Ind A) -> Ind A That is, make the new version of the function take the arguments lifted by the continuation transformer (I think.) Note how the original result automatically splits out an extra argument, a final continuation taking a type b argument. The second solution is more complicated, but I think it is also more general. Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My esoteric language page: (Mostly Unlambda.) Latest contraption: CHIQRSX9+ interpreter. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 29 20:45:37 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYUU-0000Ai-8q; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 20:42:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 29 Jul 2003 20:42:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-4v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.115]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYUA-00009P-Ch for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 20:42:06 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv2-1-126.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.12.126]) by relay-4v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 8CBF31973 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 19:41:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001901c355f8$b314efd0$7e0c2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: Subject: [lang] [nouse] impossible? Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 19:41:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19hYUA-00009P-Ch*84BqQ2V97mo* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19hYUU-0000Ai-8q*bdWn5aWDVvc* Hi, I've recently discovered Nouse. I've got the feeling that the language is BF-complete, but I find it extremely hard to program anything in it (apart for yet another Hello world) Has anybody managed to write anything in this language? Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 02 21:58:31 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19j1WK-000IC5-LM; Sat, 02 Aug 2003 21:54:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 02 Aug 2003 21:54:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-1m.club-internet.fr ([194.158.104.40]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19j1W0-000IB1-IT for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 02 Aug 2003 21:54:04 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv3-1-10.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.91.10]) by relay-1m.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 5256B16BA; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:53:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000c01c35927$6c9ab260$0a5b2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: Cc: Subject: [lang] [nouse] 99 bottles of beer Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:53:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19j1W0-000IB1-IT*p4LMyGyGA1E* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19j1WK-000IC5-LM*uxo/1i4FqaI* Ninety nine bottles of beer - Nouse version. Nouse page at http;//www.geocities.com/qpliu/nouse/nouse.html Laurent Vogel (http;//lvogel.free.fr) #0<4+0#0?0?8+3>0:0#0#0+0:0#a?0+8+3>0:0#0#0+0:3:0?6>0#0:8+4#0#0:0#0 #0?0:3+0?8+0#0?00:0#0#0+1?1+a^c:6+2:0#0#0#1#0+a+9?0+a:2#0#0#0 +2:0#0#0+4#0+3#0#0#d+b#0?2#0+5^8#0#0+2:0#0#0+0#9+0#0+0#0?0^8+2>0:0 #0#0+1?1+a<4:6+2:0#0#0#1#0+a+9?0+a:2#0#0#0+2:0#0#0+4#0+3#0#0+8^2#0 ?2#0?7?8#0#0?3:0#0#0+0?8+2#0+0#0?2#0?7^6#0#0?3:0#0#0+0^6+2#0+0#0>5 #0+2#0#0#0+0#0+0#0?0+1+3>0:0#0#0+0:0#a?0>1+3>0:0#0#0+0:3:0?6>0#0:8 +4#0#0:0#0#0?0:3+0+1+0#0?0+b+2>0:0#0#0+1?1+a+3:6+2:0#0#0#1#0+a+9?0 +a:2#0#0#0+2:0#0#0+4#0+3#0#0#4<4#0?2#0+5?1#0#0+2:0#0#0+0^1+0#0+0#0 ?0?1+2>0:0#0#0+1?1+a^2:6+2:0#0#0#1#0+a+9?0+a:2#0#0#0+2:0#0#0+4#0+3 #0#0>1#3#0?2#0?7+1#0#0?3:0#0#0+0+1+2#0+0#0>5#0+2#0#0#0+0#0?0#3?3:0 #0#0+0#3+2#0?a+1#0#0>0+0>9>0+0^1>0+0?0>0+0#0>0+0>z>0+2#0+4+z#0#0>3 #0#0#0+2#0+2:p#0#0+0#0+0#0?0:6+2>0:0#0#0+1?1+a#0:6+2:0#0#0#1#0+9?0 +a:2#0#0#0#0+2:0#0#0+4#0+3#0#0#0:6#0?0#3?3:0#0#0+0#3+2#0+4>d#0#0>3 #0#0#0+2#0+2:n#0#0+0#0?0#3?3:0#0#0+0#3+2#0?a+1#0#0>0+00+00+0 +q>0+0>9>0+0>0>0+2#0?4#0#0#0>0+0^1>0+2#0+20:0 #0#0+1?1+a^3:6+2:0#0#0#1#0+9?0+a:2#0#0#0#0+2:0#0#0+4#0+3#0#0<4<3#0 ?0#3?3:0#0#0+0#3+2#0?a+1#0#0>0+00+0>_>0+0>p>0+0#c>0+0^y>0+2#0?a :_#0#0>0+0?q>0+0>c>0+0>x>0+0+1>0+0#0>0+2#0?4>r#0#0>0+0?v>0+2#0+2?1 #0#0+0#0+0#0?0>3+2>0:0#0#0+1?1+a<3:6+2:0#0#0#1#0+a+9?0+a:2#0#0#0+2 :0#0#0+4#0+3#0#0<4+3#0?0#3?3:0#0#0+0#3+2#0?a+3#0#0>0+0>v>0+0+a>0+0 ^1>0+0>1>0+0?z>0+2#0?a?q#0#0>0+00+0>_>0+00+0?q>0+0?9>0+2#0?a +1#0#0>0+0:1>0+00+0:r>0+0^y>0+0>b>0+2#0?a>y#0#0>0+0+2>0+0#0>0+0 ?o>0+0>a>0+0+1>0+2#0?a+o#0#0>0+0<9>0+0>2>0+0:_>0+0^0>0+0+z>0+2#0?6 :z#0#0>0+0+s>0+0?v>1#0+2#0+2#2#0#0+0#0+0#0?0?3+2>0:0#0#0+1?1+a+3:6 +2:0#0#0#1#0+a+9?0+a:2#0#0#0+2:0#0#0+4#0+3#0#0+3^3#0?0#3?3:0#0#0+0 #3+2#0?a+1#0#0>0+00+0>_>0+0>p>0+0#c>0+0^y>0+2#0?a:_#0#0>0+0?q>0 +0>c>0+0>x>0+0+1>0+0#0>0+2#0?6?r#0#0>0+0>v>0+0#0>1#0+2#0+2<2#0#0+0 #0+0#0?0^1+2>0:0#0#0+1?1+a#4:6+2:0#0#0#1#0+a+9?0+a:2#0#0#0+2:0#0#0 +4#0+3#0#0>1+b#0?2#0?7+1#0#0?3:0#0#0+0+1+2#0+0#0+2#0+2>_#0#0?2#0+5 #7#0#0+2:0#0#0+0^5?2#0+5^6#0#0+2:0#0#0+0#6?2#0+5?6#0#0+2:0#0#0+0>b +0#0+0#0?0?5+2>0:0#0#0+1?1+a#0:6+2:0#0#0#1#0+9?0+a:2#0#0#0#0+2:0#0 #0+4#0+3#0#0#0+d#0?2#0+5#6#0#0+2:0#0#0+0^6?2#0+5^5#0#0+2:0#0#0+0#7 +0#0?0#6?3:0#0#0+0#6+2#0?a:5#0#0>0+0?4>0+0

0+0#b>0+0<0>0+0>0>0+2 #0?a?y#0#0>0+0?q>0+0>9>0+0^1>0+0?0>0+0#0>0+2#0?a>z#0#0>0+0+z>0+0#2 >0+0?o>0+00+00+2#0?a+q#0#0>0+0>9>0+0>0>0+0#0>0+0^1>0+0^o>0+2 #0?a0+0>_>0+0>p>0+0#c>0+0^y>0+0:_>0+2#0?a?q#0#0>0+0>c>0+0>x >0+0+1>0+0#0>0+0?r>0+2#0+4>v#0#0>3#0#0#0:0^0+2#0#0#0+0#0+0#0?0:6+2 >0:0#0#0+1?1+a^5:6+2:0#0#0#1#0+a+9?0+a:2#0#0#0+2:0#0#0+4#0+3#0#0#7 ^2#0?2#0+5<4#0#0+2:0#0#0+0:6+0#0+0#0?0#9+2>0:0#0#0+1?1+a#d:6+2:0#0 #0#1#0+a+9?0+a:2#0#0#0+2:0#0#0+4#0+3#0#0:d_#0#0?2#0+5^6#0#0+2:0#0#0+0>d+0#0+0#0?0:d+2>0:0 #0#0+1?1+a>b:6+2:0#0#0#1#0+a+9?0+a:2#0#0#0+2:0#0#0+4#0+3#0#0:8+8#0 ?2#0+5+b#0#0+2:0#0#0+0^c+0#0+0#0?0+d+2>0:0#0#0+1?1+a>d:6+2:0#0#0#1 #0+a+9?0+a:2#0#0#0+2:0#0#0+4#0+3#0#0^6; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 22:53:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000901c35938$333185b0$0a5d2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <000c01c35927$6c9ab260$0a5b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Subject: [lang] Re: [nouse] 99 bottles of beer Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 22:53:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19j3OE-000PuW-Lb*r89j/BlWmeU* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19j3OY-000Pvf-GW*mhmV3zquGXg* I wrote: > Ninety nine bottles of beer - Nouse version. > Nouse page at http;//www.geocities.com/qpliu/nouse/nouse.html > Laurent Vogel (http;//lvogel.free.fr) I can provide the (commented) source if anyone is interested. Just ask. Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 05 23:19:05 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19k8Bm-000ImC-08; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:13:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:13:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd5mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19k8BR-000IlV-Jo for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:13:25 +0300 Received: from pd3mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.177]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJ5002N0X8N3T@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:07:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shaw.ca (pd2ms1so-con.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.122.119]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJ5009TQX8N35@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:07:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.0.142.60] by pd2ims1.prod.shaw.ca (mshttpd); Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:07:35 -0700 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:07:35 -0700 From: ayzik@shaw.ca Subject: [lang] New Thue interpreter To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <25865825852e.25852e258658@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19k8BR-000IlV-Jo*GU0soICL8iY* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19k8Bm-000ImC-08*TY4PyVxQPuM* Thue interpreter in Javascript: http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.html Shows all dataspace transformation step by step; highlights the substitutions. Should be good for debugging and understanding Thue code. Have fun. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 07 18:11:41 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19kmMd-0005wx-68; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:07:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:07:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from kogut.o2.pl ([212.126.20.61]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19kmMJ-0005vg-2S for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:07:19 +0300 Received: from komp01 (unknown [80.48.70.166]) by kogut.o2.pl (Postfix) with SMTP id 680B52EEAE1 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:07:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001901c35cf5$90c701d0$a6463050@komp01> From: "t." To: References: <25865825852e.25852e258658@shaw.ca> Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:07:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 5.1 (+++++) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19kmMJ-0005vg-2S*/dGVim5tWlQ* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: tw85@go2.pl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19kmMd-0005wx-68*3YWBDSXtbRg* > Thue interpreter in Javascript: > > http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.html hi, have you got any docs about thue somewhere? that was the first time i saw thue code and i wanted to get some information, but i havent found any resources on the net. the only homepage (cats eye) seems to be down. ill be glad if you can make something accesible. rgs t. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 07 23:12:21 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19kr43-000PX5-3b; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:08:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:08:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-3m.club-internet.fr ([194.158.104.42]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19kr3h-000PWI-Oz for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:08:25 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv3-1-81.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.91.81]) by relay-3m.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 03FE0E055 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:08:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000f01c35d1f$a6fec670$515b2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <25865825852e.25852e258658@shaw.ca> <001901c35cf5$90c701d0$a6463050@komp01> Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:08:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19kr3h-000PWI-Oz*hbLcyf8JiFE* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19kr43-000PX5-3b*J4/aXDKi5qU* t wrote: > have you got any docs about thue somewhere? that was the first time i saw > thue code and i wanted to get some information, but i havent found any > resources on the net. the only homepage (cats eye) seems to be down. ill be > glad if you can make something accesible. I've got some thue resources and can publish it if anybody is interested: - the original thue distribution - a variant of thue with better control on output (no newline output by default, and a way of outputting a single newline) - patches for interpreters to implement that variant - a thue debugger in perl - a quine in variant thue - a program printing fibonacci numbers - a thue-to-sed compiler written in sed I can put it on a page if anybody's interested. Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 07 23:20:49 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19krD1-0000DJ-OV; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:18:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:17:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-4m.club-internet.fr ([194.158.104.43]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19krCh-0000Ck-Mf for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:17:43 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv3-1-81.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.91.81]) by relay-4m.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E5B6E180 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:17:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001501c35d20$f4e48720$515b2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: Subject: [lang] [nouse] patch for cnouse.c Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:17:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19krCh-0000Ck-Mf*ocTZizjfg3M* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19krD1-0000DJ-OV*5kqSGbfwwWo* patch for cnouse.c, found at http://www.geocities.com/qpliu/nouse/ which is buggy when compiled on machines with signed chars. I recently discovered nouse, but I'm geting addict. It's just the right mix of perversity, yet allowing turing completeness (proven by implementation of a rule110 automaton) and probably bf completeness (by bf-completeness, I mean the existence of a compiler from bf to that language). I haven't written the bf compiler yet, but I *begin* to have a faint idea as how to write it... stay tuned. Oh, and just for fun, here is a shorted version of Hello, world! in only 35 instructions. I offer my deep consideration to anyone who manages to create an even shorter Hello, world! :-) #1c>s>6+1+0>0>9>i+1+0>z>q>c+0:4>f+0?z>n+0q+0^y>7+1+0#r>r>n>6+1+1 Laurent -- 3d2 < /* minor portability changes 2003 Laurent Vogel */ 26c25 < static unsigned char *r; --- > static char *r; 29c28 < static unsigned char *s; --- > static char *s; 31,35c30,31 < /* size of memory allocation chunk */ < #define AC 1024 < < #define SSZ(sz) ((sz) >= sal && ((s = realloc(s,sal=(sz)+AC)) || (perror("realloc"), exit(1), 0))) < #define RSZ(sz) ((sz) >= ral && ((r = realloc(r,ral=(sz)+AC)) || (perror("realloc"), exit(1), 0))) --- > #define SSZ(sz) ((sz) >= sal && ((s = realloc(s,sal=(sz)+10)) || (perror("realloc"), exit(1), 0))) > #define RSZ(sz) ((sz) >= ral && ((r = realloc(r,ral=(sz)+10)) || (perror("realloc"), exit(1), 0))) 105c101 < { unsigned char *t = r; r = s; s = t; } --- > { char *t = r; r = s; s = t; } 118c114 < ral = AC; --- > ral = 10; 121c117 < sal = AC; --- > sal = 10; 128,129c124,125 < if (!strchr(ops,c)) continue; < op = strchr(ops,c)-ops; --- > if (!index(ops,c)) continue; > op = index(ops,c)-ops; 135,136c131,132 < if (!strchr(mults,c)) continue; < c = op + (strchr(mults,c) - mults)*7; --- > if (!index(mults,c)) continue; > c = op + (index(mults,c) - mults)*7; 151,152c147,148 < fputs("can't open file\n", stderr); < exit(EXIT_FAILURE); --- > puts("can't open file"); > exit(1); -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 07 23:32:14 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19krNx-00011B-B3; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:29:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:29:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-5m.club-internet.fr ([194.158.104.44]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19krNd-00010Z-7e for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:29:01 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv3-1-81.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.91.81]) by relay-5m.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id CA826E108 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:28:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000901c35d22$88c79bc0$515b2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <25865825852e.25852e258658@shaw.ca> <001901c35cf5$90c701d0$a6463050@komp01> Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:28:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19krNd-00010Z-7e*0vIruFK6oHw* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19krNx-00011B-B3*micdr6bv3wI* ----- Original Message ----- From: "t." To: Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 5:07 PM Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter > > Thue interpreter in Javascript: > > > > http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.html > > hi, > have you got any docs about thue somewhere? oh, there's also a bf interpreter in thue, along with a thue interpreter in python, at http://fvdp.homestead.com/files/eso_index.html Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 08 03:44:14 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19kvHt-000Hh6-E5; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 03:39:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 08 Aug 2003 03:39:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from dsl-hkigw3b5b.dial.inet.fi ([80.222.33.91] helo=maim) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19kvHY-000HgP-An for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 03:39:00 +0300 Received: from atehwa by maim with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19kvHP-0000Fh-00; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 03:38:51 +0300 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:38:51 +0300 From: Panu To: Laurent Vogel Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter Message-ID: <20030808003851.GD821@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Laurent Vogel , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <25865825852e.25852e258658@shaw.ca> <001901c35cf5$90c701d0$a6463050@komp01> <000f01c35d1f$a6fec670$515b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000f01c35d1f$a6fec670$515b2cd5@HPPAVILION> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Panu X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19kvHY-000HgP-An*PcGEItQgHrM* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19kvHt-000Hh6-E5*GDeVx7hFC1o* On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 10:08:21PM +0200, Laurent Vogel wrote: > I've got some thue resources and can publish it if anybody is interested: By all means. I've been longing for more presence for Thue, because I like it (for theoretical reasons :)). > - the original thue distribution > - a variant of thue with better control on output (no newline output by > default, and a way of outputting a single newline) > - patches for interpreters to implement that variant > - a thue debugger in perl > - a quine in variant thue > - a program printing fibonacci numbers > - a thue-to-sed compiler written in sed > > I can put it on a page if anybody's interested. Good idea. -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 08 04:07:36 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19kvfC-000JM5-8b; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 04:03:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 08 Aug 2003 04:03:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from dsl-hkigw3b5b.dial.inet.fi ([80.222.33.91] helo=maim) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19kves-000JLS-4r for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 04:03:06 +0300 Received: from atehwa by maim with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19kvel-0000Og-00 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 04:02:59 +0300 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:02:59 +0300 From: Panu To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Esoteric languages database Message-ID: <20030808010259.GE821@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Panu X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19kves-000JLS-4r*pjlIqYdIruI* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19kvfC-000JM5-8b*AN9KdDv2t3g* I'm not sure whether this has been announced on the list before, but the esoteric languages database (or whatever it is called at any one moment) seems to be happy, alive and kicking at http://www.kraml.at/stupid/ -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 08 17:12:10 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19l7v4-000JDB-13; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:08:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:08:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from fish.zenon.net ([213.189.198.214] helo=frontend1.aha.ru) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19l7uj-000JAW-Qb for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:08:17 +0300 Received: from [194.84.254.13] (HELO localhost) by frontend1.aha.ru (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP-TLS id 206532672 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:07:45 +0400 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:07:42 +0400 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.53bis) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <35613067372.20030808180742@id.ru> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [nouse] patch for cnouse.c In-Reply-To: <001501c35d20$f4e48720$515b2cd5@HPPAVILION> References: <001501c35d20$f4e48720$515b2cd5@HPPAVILION> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.2 (-) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19l7uj-000JAW-Qb*dGzaJE4n.os* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: j7@id.ru Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19l7v4-000JDB-13*Un7VUVn3XxA* Hello Laurent! Friday, August 08, 2003, 12:17:41 AM, you wrote: > Oh, and just for fun, here is a shorted version of Hello, world! in only > 35 instructions. I offer my deep consideration to anyone who manages to > create an even shorter Hello, world! :-) > #1c>s>6+1+0>0>9>i+1+0>z>q>c+0:4>f+0?z>n+0q+0^y>7+1+0#r>r>n>6+1+1 Here is 34: #10+0:4>0+r+0f>l?z>0+0#r>0+0^y>0+0>c>0+0>z>z:c+t+7>b>0>0+6+b+d And perhaps optimal is around 30. -- Mtv Europe http://www.frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 08 20:06:17 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lAdl-0004Y5-G5; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 20:02:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 08 Aug 2003 20:02:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd4mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lAdQ-0004XK-Ck for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 20:02:36 +0300 Received: from pd3mr4so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr4so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.180]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJB003HS8M1MU@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:01:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shaw.ca (pd2ms1so-con.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.122.119]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJB005JP8M1AY@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:01:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.0.142.58] by pd2ims1.prod.shaw.ca (mshttpd); Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:01:13 -0700 Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:01:13 -0700 From: ayzik@shaw.ca Subject: [lang] Re: Esoteric languages database To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20bc7620ab47.20ab4720bc76@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19lAdQ-0004XK-Ck*wCE90JwGcDo* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19lAdl-0004Y5-G5*z1ZsTCQHWec* ----- Original Message ----- From: Panu Date: Thursday, August 7, 2003 6:02 pm Subject: [lang] Esoteric languages database > I'm not sure whether this has been announced on the list before, > but the > esoteric languages database (or whatever it is called at any one > moment)seems to be happy, alive and kicking at > > http://www.kraml.at/stupid/ Except that it 1) Consists of links to other resources - mostly to the defunct catseye 2) Insults esoteric programming languages by calling them "stupid" 3) Insults Brainfuck by renaming it "Brainfork" without any explanation ... -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 08 23:40:54 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lDzI-000IM0-Ri; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:37:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:37:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-2v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.113]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lDyy-000ILF-Lf for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:37:04 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv5-1-29.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.18.29]) by relay-2v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E3F116D2 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 22:36:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001b01c35dec$d036e770$1d122cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <25865825852e.25852e258658@shaw.ca> <001901c35cf5$90c701d0$a6463050@komp01> <000f01c35d1f$a6fec670$515b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <20030808003851.GD821@ling.helsinki.fi> Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 22:36:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19lDyy-000ILF-Lf*ACYK3iR0PO.* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19lDzI-000IM0-Ri*paMRvNyYdEs* I wrote: > I've got some thue resources and can publish it if anybody is interested: > - the original thue distribution > - a variant of thue with better control on output (no newline output by > default, and a way of outputting a single newline) > - patches for interpreters to implement that variant > - a thue debugger in perl > - a quine in variant thue > - a program printing fibonacci numbers > - a thue-to-sed compiler written in sed well, it's at http://lvogel.free.fr/thue.htm I urge any Thue programmers to adopt the variant I describe on that page. Happy Thue hacking. Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 08 23:44:37 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lE3d-000IeZ-7W; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:41:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:41:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-5v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.110]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lE3J-000Idu-0d for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:41:33 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv5-1-29.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.18.29]) by relay-5v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 7AB8716D7 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 22:41:31 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002801c35ded$72a31ab0$1d122cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <001501c35d20$f4e48720$515b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <35613067372.20030808180742@id.ru> Subject: [lang] [nouse] short hello world Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 22:41:29 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19lE3J-000Idu-0d*gQM9wsFk3NU* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19lE3d-000IeZ-7W*7gAqXu0R.sM* Mtv wrote: > > Oh, and just for fun, here is a shorted version of Hello, world! in only > > 35 instructions. I offer my deep consideration to anyone who manages to > > create an even shorter Hello, world! :-) > > > #1c>s>6+1+0>0>9>i+1+0>z>q>c+0:4>f+0?z>n+0q+0^y>7+1+0#r>r>n>6+1+1 > > Here is 34: > > #10+0:4>0+r+0f>l?z>0+0#r>0+0^y>0+0>c>0+0>z>z:c+t+7>b>0>0+6+b+d Aaaargh! I'm flabbergasted. I'll scrutinize this closely during the week-end. Did you create it on the spot, or did you have it in store already? Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 09 18:04:42 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lVDW-000CBD-KZ; Sat, 09 Aug 2003 18:01:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 09 Aug 2003 18:00:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from fish.zenon.net ([213.189.198.214] helo=frontend1.aha.ru) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lVD7-000C8G-OS for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 09 Aug 2003 18:00:49 +0300 Received: from [209.237.255.144] (HELO localhost) by frontend1.aha.ru (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP-TLS id 206702929 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:00:14 +0400 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:02:45 +0400 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <59157847963.20030809190245@id.ru> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [nouse] short hello world In-reply-To: <002801c35ded$72a31ab0$1d122cd5@HPPAVILION> References: <001501c35d20$f4e48720$515b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <35613067372.20030808180742@id.ru> <002801c35ded$72a31ab0$1d122cd5@HPPAVILION> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.2 (-) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19lVD7-000C8G-OS*JtTeWNIqMIY* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: j7@id.ru Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19lVDW-000CBD-KZ*hx5te1hXcuA* Hello Laurent! Saturday, August 09, 2003, 12:41:29 AM, you wrote: > Aaaargh! I'm flabbergasted. I'll scrutinize this closely during the > week-end. Did you create it on the spot, or did you have it in store > already? I started programming on nouse just yesterday. Not that I love it (I think it's just a poor imitation of Malbolge), but I was attracted by the task you proposed. I've bruteforced your scheme with few euristics, and some of my crunchers are still running... aha, here is 33: #rz+x>y^y+z>c>z>t:4+z#0^f>z>0?z^0+z>z+9w>z#r+i^0>c>z>0 -- #0#b>0+0+5>1^0+0<0>0+0:y>a -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 10 11:50:56 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19llqS-0002oD-St; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:46:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:46:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-4m.club-internet.fr ([194.158.104.43]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19llq8-0002nW-Mp for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:46:12 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv1-1-32.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.3.32]) by relay-4m.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 85F12108C2 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:46:10 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004e01c35f1b$d8975d20$20032cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <001501c35d20$f4e48720$515b2cd5@HPPAVILION> <35613067372.20030808180742@id.ru> <002801c35ded$72a31ab0$1d122cd5@HPPAVILION> <59157847963.20030809190245@id.ru> Subject: [lang] Re: [nouse] short hello world Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:46:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19llq8-0002nW-Mp*RVUc4gQir2M* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19llqS-0002oD-St*Bjs3LvIqup2* Mtv Europe wrote: > > I started programming on nouse just yesterday. Not that I love it > (I think it's just a poor imitation of Malbolge). Ah, I don't know Malbolge (yet), so I can't comment on this. But I like your bruteforce approach. OTOH, the "99 bottles of beer" entry I posted some time ago was hand-written (using the right amount of pre-processors of course), not found by computer. Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 11 02:20:32 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lzQY-000BFM-NH; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:16:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:16:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from dsl-hkigw3hb0.dial.inet.fi ([80.222.39.176] helo=maim) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lzQE-000BEc-Lm for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:16:22 +0300 Received: from atehwa by maim with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19lzQC-0000Es-00 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:16:20 +0300 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:16:20 +0300 From: Panu To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Esoteric languages database Message-ID: <20030810231619.GB889@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20bc7620ab47.20ab4720bc76@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20bc7620ab47.20ab4720bc76@shaw.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Panu X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19lzQE-000BEc-Lm*hsTE/BmQPZs* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19lzQY-000BFM-NH*6vAEgxiQji.* On Fri, Aug 08, 2003 at 10:01:13AM -0700, ayzik@shaw.ca wrote: > > moment)seems to be happy, alive and kicking at > > http://www.kraml.at/stupid/ > Except that it > 1) Consists of links to other resources - mostly to the defunct catseye AFAIK, this was its purpose from the beginning. I didn't try, but one should be able to easily add functioning resources... > 2) Insults esoteric programming languages by calling them "stupid" > 3) Insults Brainfuck by renaming it "Brainfork" without any explanation I'm sure brainfuck is very pissed off. :) Seriously though, I get the impression he's not even trying to be objective nor does he claim to be, so what's the problem? Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 11 13:27:53 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m9pf-000DhW-0e; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:23:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:23:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from kogut2.o2.pl ([212.126.20.58]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m9pK-000Dfq-Kw for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:22:58 +0300 Received: from komp01 (unknown [80.48.70.166]) by kogut2.o2.pl (Postfix) with SMTP id B1C3E72AC7 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:22:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002301c35ff2$80adbd20$a6463050@komp01> From: "t." To: References: <20bc7620ab47.20ab4720bc76@shaw.ca> <20030810231619.GB889@ling.helsinki.fi> Subject: [lang] Re: Esoteric languages database Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:22:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19m9pK-000Dfq-Kw*ZHnIUehrJ4.* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: tw85@go2.pl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19m9pf-000DhW-0e*5loZOvQuSAs* > > > http://www.kraml.at/stupid/ > > Except that it > > 1) Consists of links to other resources - mostly to the defunct catseye BTW, does anyone know what is going on with catseye? rgs t. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 12 01:03:26 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mKhc-000IrG-V5; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:59:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:59:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd4mo1so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mKhJ-000IqX-0h for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:59:25 +0300 Received: from pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.179]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJH00K8C6EZJK@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:59:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shaw.ca (pd2ms1so-con.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.122.119]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJH002SO6EY0Z@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:59:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.0.142.60] by pd2ims1.prod.shaw.ca (mshttpd); Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:59:23 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:59:23 -0700 From: ayzik@shaw.ca Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <3d80f63da6a9.3da6a93d80f6@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19mKhJ-000IqX-0h*Lh.AzmCq.3Y* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19mKhc-000IrG-V5*qkHX2eVUh1o* > I urge any Thue programmers to adopt the variant I describe on > that page. I don't like it (the newline thing). It is weird and artificial and I don't see why a single output string can't contain many newlines. I would prefer escape sequences \n and \\, or something like that. Of course, my Javascript Thue interpreter outputs HTML code, so this is not an issue (newlines are
). -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 12 08:42:11 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mRrN-0003f6-3v; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:38:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:38:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-4v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.115]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mRr2-0003ds-PU for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:37:56 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv5-1-23.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.18.23]) by relay-4v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 28A0F19D7; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:37:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001b01c36093$dc0ffc40$17122cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: Cc: References: <3d80f63da6a9.3da6a93d80f6@shaw.ca> Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:37:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -0.2 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19mRr2-0003ds-PU*LAlXYLxuULk* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19mRrN-0003f6-3v*5gThLDVkvoo* ayzik wrote: > > I urge any Thue programmers to adopt the variant I describe on > > that page. > > I don't like it (the newline thing). It is weird and artificial and > I don't see why a single output string can't contain many newlines. I adopted it at first, because it wanted something simple, and I didn't want to break existing programs (most notably, the BF interperter). > I would prefer escape sequences \n and \\, or something like that. This is certainly an option. But then, do you extend it to the other strings (RHS, LHS and initial data) as well? If so, the BF interpreter needs to be rewriten (it contains backslashes IIRC). > Of course, my Javascript Thue interpreter outputs HTML code, so > this is not an issue (newlines are
). yes, but you don't write quines in html :-( I'm ready to adopt another convention if it becomes a thue standard. Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 12 20:03:14 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mcU8-0009Qr-Fx; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:59:00 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:58:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd5mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mcTo-0009Pv-1Y for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:58:40 +0300 Received: from pd3mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr2so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.178]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJI0077SMTJJ3@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:51:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shaw.ca (pd2ms1so-con.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.122.119]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJI007DCMTJK7@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:51:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.0.142.59] by pd2ims1.prod.shaw.ca (mshttpd); Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:51:19 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:51:19 -0700 From: ayzik@shaw.ca Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <45d2d9459ff3.459ff345d2d9@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19mcTo-0009Pv-1Y*ehXTtbYQ.46* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19mcU8-0009Qr-Fx*HelqAPXIhwk* > > > I urge any Thue programmers to adopt the variant I describe on > > > that page. > > > > I don't like it (the newline thing). It is weird and artificial > and > > I don't see why a single output string can't contain many newlines. > > I adopted it at first, because it wanted something simple, and I > didn't want to break existing programs (most notably, the BF > interperter). > > I would prefer escape sequences \n and \\, or something like that. > > This is certainly an option. But then, do you extend it to the other > strings (RHS, LHS and initial data) as well? If so, the BF > interpreter > needs to be rewriten (it contains backslashes IIRC). Sure, why not?.. The dataspace, it seems, may contain newlines. It would make sense to have an ability to use them. Since the BF interpreter is pretty much the only big Thue program, and substituting the backslashes with another character is trivial, I vote for escape sequences everywhere. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 12 23:51:35 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mg4K-0002GG-EI; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:48:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:48:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-1v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.112]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mg3q-0002EN-QY for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:48:06 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv1-1-72.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.3.72]) by relay-1v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id BC45F78D for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:48:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001c01c36113$03d35400$48032cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <45d2d9459ff3.459ff345d2d9@shaw.ca> Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:47:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19mg3q-0002EN-QY*iHxuvEfEy3g* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19mg4K-0002GG-EI*HyNv6INQjP2* ayzik wrote: > > > I would prefer escape sequences \n and \\, or something like that. > > > Sure, why not?.. The dataspace, it seems, may contain newlines. It > would make sense to have an ability to use them. > > Since the BF interpreter is pretty much the only big Thue program, > and substituting the backslashes with another character is trivial, > I vote for escape sequences everywhere. Okay, so what do you suggest ? - \a, \b, \f, \n, \r, \t, \v interpreted as in C - \x is the same as x for any other character x ? or do you think \123 and \xFF should be added too? what about newlines in initial data? is ...::=... ::= abc def equivalent to ...::=... ::= abcdef or to ...::=... ::= abc\ndef ? In the latter case, would it be necessary to specify ...::=... ::= abc\ def to have an initial data equal to "abcdef"? Regards, Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 13 02:07:55 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19miCD-000DHM-Sj; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:04:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:04:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd2mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19miBt-000DGd-Gf for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:04:33 +0300 Received: from pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.179]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJJ00FHF3V7QM@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:59:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shaw.ca (pd2ms1so-con.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.122.119]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJJ003623V8A3@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:59:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.0.142.60] by pd2ims1.prod.shaw.ca (mshttpd); Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:59:32 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:59:32 -0700 From: ayzik@shaw.ca Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <4bcab34b89de.4b89de4bcab3@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19miBt-000DGd-Gf*IZsUNtkK05A* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19miCD-000DHM-Sj*gPVN5c2vCeo* > > > > I would prefer escape sequences \n and \\, or something like > that.> > > > > Sure, why not?.. The dataspace, it seems, may contain newlines. > It > > would make sense to have an ability to use them. > > > > Since the BF interpreter is pretty much the only big Thue > program, > > and substituting the backslashes with another character is > trivial, > > I vote for escape sequences everywhere. > > Okay, so what do you suggest ? > - \a, \b, \f, \n, \r, \t, \v interpreted as in C > - \x is the same as x for any other character x ? I think \\ and \n should be enough. Although \b is neat, of course :) > or do you think \123 and \xFF should be added too? How about this: \\ is a backslash, \n is a newline. Everything else is implementation-dependant (and implementations are welcome to implement things like \xFF - chances are they won't ever be used in any Thue program anyway :)) > what about newlines in initial data? is > > ...::=... > ::= > abc > def > > equivalent to > > ...::=... > ::= > abcdef > > or to > > ...::=... > ::= > abc\ndef The latter would make more sense, if newlines are allowed in rules. > ? In the latter case, would it be necessary to specify > > ...::=... > ::= > abc\ > def > > to have an initial data equal to "abcdef"? Yeah. Would that also break the BF interpreter? -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 13 10:55:16 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mqQ9-0006sE-Kv; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:51:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:51:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [194.78.219.157] (helo=decis.be) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mqPo-0006qs-6y for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:51:28 +0300 Received: from decis.be ([192.168.0.20]) (authenticated user fplancke@decis.be) by decis.be (decis.be [194.78.219.157]) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.0.R) with ESMTP id 43-md50000000017.tmp for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:57:01 +0200 Message-ID: <3F39EF49.FBEE41B8@decis.be> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:56:57 +0200 From: Frederic van der Plancke Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter References: <4bcab34b89de.4b89de4bcab3@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-Sender: fplancke@decis.be X-Spam-Processed: decis.be, Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:57:01 +0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19mqPo-0006qs-6y*O/yki24omRA* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19mqQ9-0006sE-Kv*P.U4NoztGxI* Let me propose something else (just a proposition). Transformation rules are as before, and no escape characters are admitted in rules. This is not as bad as it seems, since if '\n' appears in rules and neither '\' nor 'n' appear elsewhere in rules, then '\n' is never separated and acts as a single character. OTOH, on output escape sequences are interpreted. So outputting '\n' would produce a newline. On input (I don't remember if Thue performs input ;-) control codes would be translated to escape sequences. But, I guess accepting escape sequences everywhere is more tempting... ayzik@shaw.ca wrote: > > > > > > I would prefer escape sequences \n and \\, or something like > > that.> > > > > > > Sure, why not?.. The dataspace, it seems, may contain newlines. > > It > > > would make sense to have an ability to use them. > > > > > > Since the BF interpreter is pretty much the only big Thue > > program, > > > and substituting the backslashes with another character is > > trivial, Yes, specially if '\\' is the escape sequence for '\'. > > > I vote for escape sequences everywhere. > > > > Okay, so what do you suggest ? > > - \a, \b, \f, \n, \r, \t, \v interpreted as in C > > - \x is the same as x for any other character x ? > > I think \\ and \n should be enough. Although \b is neat, of course :) > > > or do you think \123 and \xFF should be added too? I think the ability to access such characters should be added to. If \n matters, why shouldn't \t or \007 ? To make things easier, octal escapes could be exactly '\' + 3 digits long, and hexadecimal escapes could be exactly '\x' + 2 digits long. > > How about this: \\ is a backslash, \n is a newline. Everything > else is implementation-dependant I don't like language implementation dependencies. They're bad. (OTOH, they're useful when you're trying to implement such languages in other esoteric languages ;-) > (and implementations are welcome > to implement things like \xFF - chances are they won't ever be used > in any Thue program anyway :)) Except that when writing my BF interpreter I felt I'd be happy with more characters... (more displayable ones, preferably.) > > > what about newlines in initial data? is > > > > ...::=... > > ::= > > abc > > def > > > > equivalent to > > > > ...::=... > > ::= > > abcdef > > > > or to > > > > ...::=... > > ::= > > abc\ndef > > The latter would make more sense, if newlines are allowed in rules. And it's easy to suppress newlines at runtime: \n::= > > > ? In the latter case, would it be necessary to specify > > > > ...::=... > > ::= > > abc\ > > def > > > > to have an initial data equal to "abcdef"? > > Yeah. Would that also break the BF interpreter? The BF interpreter blocks on any non-BF character in the program. And \n is not a BF character. Of course, we can add rules to suppress them. More generally, there's the problem that about any non-trivial Thue program will be unable to process arbitrary input cleanly, since all rules apply to input, even if they (ideally) shouldn't. I'm not sure we need to do anything against that, though. Frédéric vdP -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 13 20:04:40 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19myz8-0001Ry-Uy; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:00:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:00:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd6mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19myyo-0001R3-M1 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:00:10 +0300 Received: from pd3mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr2so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.178]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJK00EAAHR5IF@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:57:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shaw.ca (pd2ms1so-con.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.122.119]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJK00A2IHR580@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:57:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [10.0.142.58] by pd2ims1.prod.shaw.ca (mshttpd); Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:57:05 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:57:05 -0700 From: ayzik@shaw.ca Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <53b0e453c31d.53c31d53b0e4@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19myyo-0001R3-M1*x7V5cJyV3Hg* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19myz8-0001Ry-Uy*7.LkOigS55E* > More generally, there's the problem that about any non-trivial > Thue program > will be unable to process arbitrary input cleanly, since all rules > applyto input, even if they (ideally) shouldn't. > I'm not sure we need to do anything against that, though. The only solution to that I could think of was to validate input via regexes. E.g. instead of ::: you'd have ::[][+-,.<>]:: And that's so horrendously ugly that it probably deserves its own esoteric language. Oh wait, sed :) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 13 20:48:07 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mzgm-00059a-Hn; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:45:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:45:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-5v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.110]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mzgS-00058F-AG for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:45:16 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv5-1-64.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.18.64]) by relay-5v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 77AA21684 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:45:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001701c361c2$a158b1c0$40122cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <53b0e453c31d.53c31d53b0e4@shaw.ca> Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:45:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19mzgS-00058F-AG*Tzfu2NPk77E* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19mzgm-00059a-Hn*IqWwxiqQZtk* > > More generally, there's the problem that about any non-trivial > > Thue program > > will be unable to process arbitrary input cleanly, since all rules > > applyto input, even if they (ideally) shouldn't. > > I'm not sure we need to do anything against that, though. > > The only solution to that I could think of was to validate input via regexes. other solutions: 1) convert each input byte to two hexadecimal chars, and do the reverse for output 2) same as 1 but in binary format (8 binary digits) 3) add fake chars (outside the 0..255 range) inside Thue. For instance, \A ... \Z are non-(0..255) chars, which mean any rule containing such fake chars cannot trigger by accident on input. Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 27 14:13:31 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ry8n-000EQ8-8I; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:07:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:06:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from neuron.neuron1.com ([64.246.18.86]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ry82-000ELy-63 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:06:18 +0300 Received: by neuron.neuron1.com (Postfix, from userid 104) id 3A15B36C13B; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:06:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by neuron.neuron1.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C2836C10C for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:06:13 +0100 (BST) From: Cal Henderson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [nouse] short hello world X-Mailer: WeaselMail Message-Id: <20030827110613.D1C2836C10C@neuron.neuron1.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:06:13 +0100 (BST) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20 version=2.50 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.50 (1.173-2003-02-20-exp) X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19ry82-000ELy-63*t7duuoLBVyk* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19ry8n-000EQ8-8I*qutqfqN/4J.* At 16:05 GMT 09.08.03, Mtv Europe wrote: : I started programming on nouse just yesterday. Not that I love it : (I think it's just a poor imitation of Malbolge), but I was attracted : by the task you proposed. I've bruteforced your scheme with few : euristics, and some of my crunchers are still running... aha, here is 33: : : #rz+x>y^y+z>c>z>t:4+z#0^f>z>0?z^0+z>z+9w>z#r+i^0>c>z>0 i don't have a short hello world, but i have just written a nouse interpreter in perl: http://search.cpan.org/author/IAMCAL/Language-Nouse-0.02 and also an inline version (because writing perl subs in nouse is a sorely needed feature): http://search.cpan.org/author/IAMCAL/Inline-Nouse-0.02 --cal -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 27 17:31:17 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19s1HP-000Bp3-4U; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:28:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:27:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from expms1.cites.uiuc.edu ([128.174.5.205] ident=mirapoint) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19s1Gd-000Bl6-T5 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:27:24 +0300 Received: from expms1.cites.uiuc.edu (localhost.cites.uiuc.edu [127.0.0.1]) by expms1.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AAC51380; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:27:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 128.174.5.212 by expms1.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with HTTP/1.1; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:27:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:27:20 -0500 From: amling@uiuc.edu Subject: [lang] Cardinal Parse To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Mailer: Webmail Mirapoint Direct 3.3.6-GR MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="-----663a84b56aaa562c0742afa9ee41edca" X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19s1Gd-000Bl6-T5*L.XZtw5aBbQ* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amling@uiuc.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19s1HP-000Bp3-4U*4GTDW./8Dqc* -------663a84b56aaa562c0742afa9ee41edca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I slapped together a lex parser generator and a syntax parser generator. Not really esoteric, not really documented, but still seemed appropriate for this list. Questions? Comments? Flames? 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KNNFhr55jzboOagNnM7TFNDmy6Pz5lnj3dFbMAPtGef/erde/638ix3/9BjWavw/VdP+q+If 6/G/ik8f/3QkRoa/SM6EX+AwFTLP1tatGXio2zPgFFRszstYYi/XDqKlf7Hjnz6FQrzvizqB 0vv/S5Wavv+/RG6M7998/Fvaf4k7//RL0v+VWsW8/xms73+s5jt5dXb+lHh52O4/JDTx8uXo lzcfnqqb7fkmO23ZfJT/OQtgsCsP0Edv3hiQrX4/AnX8pnH0zoAjW80qZIaf6EQ0iXOSE7vz vMSc2KhmaYR+DjboNcRD2Al/e/QatsGP1dMDSnUwA3+TmEA8HotWjWDwAwFK8fF4vKoUk/y1 nsXW3/pbf+tv/a2/9bf+1t/6W3/rb/2tv/W3/tbf+lt/62/9rb/1dxff/wc6x/W5ADACAA== -------663a84b56aaa562c0742afa9ee41edca-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 28 23:51:31 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19sTh5-0009tf-00; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:48:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:48:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-5m.club-internet.fr ([194.158.104.44]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19sTgK-0009pg-De for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:47:48 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv2-3-8.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.105.8]) by relay-5m.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A6D8E065; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:47:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003b01c36da5$9e5b2270$08692cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: Cc: References: <20030827110613.D1C2836C10C@neuron.neuron1.com> Subject: [lang] Re: [nouse] short hello world Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:47:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19sTgK-0009pg-De*3OHRBsaNlSs* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19sTh5-0009tf-00*yVLWZs8dpHk* Cal Henderson wrote: > > i don't have a short hello world, but i have just written > a nouse interpreter in perl: > http://search.cpan.org/author/IAMCAL/Language-Nouse-0.02 Your interpretor works fine on existing programs (like, the 99 bottles of beer entry already published in this list) once the following patch is applied (leading TABs may not be rendered correctly in mail): 54,57c54,55 < # strip other characters < $input =~ s/[^$op$mul]//g; < < while ($input =~ m/([$op])([$mul])/g){ --- > # read the next op, then the next mul, ignoring other characters. > while ($input =~ m/[^#:<>+?^]*([$op])[^0-9a-z_]*([$mul])/g){ (perl note: I'm not accustomed to the qr// construct, so I don't know if it is a bug, but expressions like [^$op] fail on my perl v5.8.0 built for cygwin-multi-64int, which is why I resorted to [^#:<>+?^]* instead) The perl version is somewhat slower than the C version, of course. regards, Laurent Vogel -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 29 10:07:15 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19sdIl-0000lE-3A; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:04:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:03:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-4v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.115]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19sdI0-0000h3-HZ for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:03:20 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv1-1-2.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.3.2]) by relay-4v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 9BD0F1C2C for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:03:16 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000e01c36dfb$9e5b2c60$02032cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: Subject: [lang] [nouse] some programs Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:03:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19sdI0-0000h3-HZ*Gzq2lLwF9Ow* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19sdIl-0000lE-3A*TZWVGu3UeqQ* Hi, it turns out I will lack time in the near future to publish a proper nouse page. In the interim I've just published the following nouse programs: beer.no - classical 99 bottles of beer quine.no - a self reproducing program rule110.no - a rule 110 cellular automaton. Since rule 110 is universal, I understand that this demonstrates that nouse is Turing-complete. at the following location: http://lvogel.free.fr/misc.htm I've also put a version of the C interpreter, as the C version in the original distribution is buggy. Laurent Vogel -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 29 12:19:44 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19sfOF-000GA3-Am; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:17:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:17:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19sfNu-000G8y-DR for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:17:34 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p2/8.11.6p2) with ESMTP id h7T9HbD50565 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000e01c36dfb$9e5b2c60$02032cd5@HPPAVILION> References: <000e01c36dfb$9e5b2c60$02032cd5@HPPAVILION> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:17:33 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: [nouse] some programs Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19sfNu-000G8y-DR*ttxJkSRoBfs* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19sfOF-000GA3-Am*xZK3ooSIcrI* > rule110.no - a rule 110 cellular automaton. Since rule 110 is universal, > I understand that this demonstrates that nouse is Turing-complete. Maybe. I don't know any details about the use of rule 110 for computation, but it might require that the parts of the field left and right of the finite input area be filled with an infinite repeating pattern other than "...0 0 0 0 0...". And I don't know whether your implementation allows simulating this--its input format is not described. -Daniel. -- >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[- <<]+<[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>]http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 29 19:36:59 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19smEj-000Eno-It; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:36:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list sci); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:36:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67] ident=[X6WDEkvA+7KUzWGg/fGkz+L7/dLTxVhI]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19smEW-000EmD-UK for sci@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:36:20 +0300 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:10962 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[x3QoqsvixYEtK8YO4TUhAsq5EAIZM3ar]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:36:07 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:34:09 +0200 (CEST) From: Orjan Johansen To: sci@esoteric.sange.fi cc: "Daniel." Subject: [sci] Rule 110 (Re: [lang] Re: [nouse] some programs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <000e01c36dfb$9e5b2c60$02032cd5@HPPAVILION> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19smEW-000EmD-UK*vBYTqnsQJ0s* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: sci X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19smEj-000Eno-It*GzPzqYdXUj.* On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Daniel. wrote: > > rule110.no - a rule 110 cellular automaton. Since rule 110 is univers= al, > > I understand that this demonstrates that nouse is Turing-complete. > > Maybe. I don't know any details about the use of rule 110 for > computation, but it might require that the parts of the field left > and right of the finite input area be filled with an infinite > repeating pattern other than "...0 0 0 0 0...". And I don't know > whether your implementation allows simulating this--its input format > is not described. I did some experimenting with rule 110 a while ago, and it is in fact possible to grow "ether" (i.e. 10011011111000 repeated) _leftwards_ into a =2E..0000 pattern (at speed -1/2, which is the same as the maximal leftward speed of a disturbance in ether). Nothing can grow rightwards into a 0000... pattern, of course. Since this allows unbounded growth in one direction, it would surprise me if there is a barrier to Turing completeness, although I haven't read the proof of that. Although it is not in a presentable form, I have just put the (text with vim folds) file with my investigations at . It contains: 1) Some nearly unreadable calculations from my (failed) attempt to discover a "relativistic transformation" in the rule 110 automaton, after I discovered some apparent order in the velocities of the known gliders. I still don't know whether it is really impossible. Basically, if v is a possible velocity for a glider in ether, then it seems like (13v-4)/(-12v+15) may also be one. Is there a systematic way of transforming the "space-time" to show this, similar to a Lorentz transformation in special relativity? 2) A listing of the 6 essential possibilities for a disturbance travelling leftwards into ...0000. Toward the right, each of them becomes a field of gliders in ether, 4 of which go leftwards at speed -1/2, and so can be used to grow ether leftwards. 3) Sketch of a proof that no leftward disturbance in ether can travel faster than -1/2. (Rightwards the max speed is 2/3, and in ether no speed strictly between 1/5 and 2/3 is possible. This can be shown similarly to the -1/2 result, but simpler (no offsets necessary). I have also read a claim that no glider speed between 0 and 1/5 is possible, but I don't see how to prove this.) Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My esoteric language page: (Mostly Unlambda.) Latest contraption: CHIQRSX9+ interpreter. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 29 20:01:09 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19smaf-000HLs-V1; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:59:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:58:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-3v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.114]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19smaL-000HKk-Vp for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:58:54 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv1-1-25.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.3.25]) by relay-3v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 159E03C54 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:58:50 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000b01c36e4e$d1038880$19032cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <000e01c36dfb$9e5b2c60$02032cd5@HPPAVILION> Subject: [lang] Re: [nouse] some programs Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:58:47 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19smaL-000HKk-Vp*igmRmExilFU* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19smaf-000HLs-V1*1vniMQylISA* Daniel wrote: > > rule110.no - a rule 110 cellular automaton. Since rule 110 is universal, > > I understand that this demonstrates that nouse is Turing-complete. > > Maybe. I don't know any details about the use of rule 110 for > computation, but it might require that the parts of the field left > and right of the finite input area be filled with an infinite > repeating pattern other than "...0 0 0 0 0...". well, I don't know either. Available articles on the net catalogue gliders moving trhough a particular repeating pattern called the "ether". But it looks like a single 1 as initial data eventually fills the universe with this "ether" perturbated with some gliders, so it may well be that a universal machine can be implemented in rule 110 with only repeating 0 as filling pattern. > And I don't know whether your implementation allows simulating > this--its input format is not described. This implementation doesn't. The input is a newline-ended string of 0 and 1 making the finite initial condition (the rest of the infinite area being filled with 0). Hhm, I guess it means I'm up to writing a bf interpreter/compiler then? or does anyone on this list know of *simple* systems that, once implemented, are a proof of turing completeness? Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 31 23:11:29 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19tYVB-000N3l-1i; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:08:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:08:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from kogut.o2.pl ([212.126.20.60]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19tYUq-000Mys-5Q for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:08:24 +0300 Received: from komp01 (unknown [80.48.70.166]) by kogut.o2.pl (o2.pl Mailer 2.0.1) with SMTP id D42782823D for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:07:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001101c36ffb$8b514760$a6463050@komp01> From: "t." To: Subject: [lang] [thue] output Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:07:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19tYUq-000Mys-5Q*UJTFGa.gnC.* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: tw85@go2.pl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19tYVB-000N3l-1i*Lo9Nj2HiBeA* Hi, don't you think that it would be useful in Thue, when performing output, LHS could evaluate into something anyway (not just leave an emtpy string). It could be used like that: LHS::=RHS~output string IMO lack of this is very constraining. For example, following code would output characters always in the same manner: a`::=`~A b`::=`~B c`::=`~C ::= abc` IMO it would be good to include it in the possible Thue+ (?) standard among with other features considered recently. BTW I think that outputting newlines should be done through "\n" and "\\". It is not necessary to include them anywhere else except output strings. waiting for your opinions. rgs dil* -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Sep 01 12:18:43 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19tknW-0007ju-Q2; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 12:16:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Sep 2003 12:16:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-2m.club-internet.fr ([194.158.104.41]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19tknC-0007ig-Ht for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 12:16:10 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv5-1-89.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.18.89]) by relay-2m.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CAD516A6 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:16:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000701c37069$ad1753d0$59122cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <001101c36ffb$8b514760$a6463050@komp01> Subject: [lang] Re: [thue] output Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:16:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19tknC-0007ig-Ht*Y.g1UiUYHew* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19tknW-0007ju-Q2*qj9BF95MscA* t. wrote: > don't you think that it would be useful in Thue, when performing output, LHS > could evaluate into something anyway (not just leave an emtpy string). It > could be used like that: > > LHS::=RHS~output string > > IMO lack of this is very constraining. not very constraining, it just requires that two rules be used to output. > For example, following code would output characters always in the > same manner: > > a`::=`~A > b`::=`~B > c`::=`~C > ::= > abc` achiveable in current Thue like this: a`::=@A` b`::=@B` c`::=@C` @A::=~A @B::=~B @C::=~C ::= abc` > IMO it would be good to include it in the possible Thue+ (?) standard among > with other features considered recently. I would vote against it. > BTW I think that outputting > newlines should be done through "\n" and "\\". It is not necessary to > include them anywhere else except output strings. Okay, I'll try to summarise proposals done in this area and submit something to vote (?) as standard. Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Sep 01 15:37:24 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19tnt6-0004vj-FK; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:34:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:34:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from kogut.o2.pl ([212.126.20.61]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19tnsb-0004tG-Um for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:33:58 +0300 Received: from komp01 (unknown [80.48.70.166]) by kogut.o2.pl (o2.pl Mailer 2.0.1) with SMTP id 4B1F42EEA7A for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:33:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000901c37085$4b6a8820$a6463050@komp01> From: "t." To: References: <001101c36ffb$8b514760$a6463050@komp01> <000701c37069$ad1753d0$59122cd5@HPPAVILION> Subject: [lang] Re: [thue] output Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:33:49 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19tnsb-0004tG-Um*5lt4ejTMAXA* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: tw85@go2.pl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19tnt6-0004vj-FK*OkWsnLKHbXY* > > LHS::=RHS~output string > > > > IMO lack of this is very constraining. > > not very constraining, it just requires that two rules be used to output. if not constraining, at least inconsistent and inconvenient. If it was, the whole outputting would be more like some side effect occuring when a rule is applied, not restricting the abilities of a rule. rgs t. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Sep 02 11:59:07 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19u6zH-000D0f-0k; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:58:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list sci); Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:57:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [194.78.219.157] (helo=decis.be) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19u6z2-000Cyp-Ow for sci@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:57:52 +0300 Received: from decis.be ([192.168.0.20]) (authenticated user fplancke@decis.be) by decis.be (decis.be [194.78.219.157]) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.0.R) with ESMTP id 55-md50000000009.tmp for ; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:02:44 +0200 Message-ID: <3F545CB1.A96EFB1B@decis.be> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:02:41 +0200 From: Frederic van der Plancke Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sci@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [sci] Re: Rule 110 References: <000e01c36dfb$9e5b2c60$02032cd5@HPPAVILION> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-Sender: fplancke@decis.be X-Spam-Processed: decis.be, Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:02:44 +0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19u6z2-000Cyp-Ow*qVYSp.qKziw* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: sci X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19u6zH-000D0f-0k*Lx.FEjev/jw* Orjan Johansen wrote: [...] > I did some experimenting with rule 110 a while ago, and it is in fact > possible to grow "ether" (i.e. 10011011111000 repeated) _leftwards_ into a > ...0000 pattern (at speed -1/2, which is the same as the maximal leftward > speed of a disturbance in ether). Nothing can grow rightwards into a > 0000... pattern, of course. Since this allows unbounded growth in one > direction, it would surprise me if there is a barrier to Turing > completeness, although I haven't read the proof of that. > > Although it is not in a presentable form, I have just put the (text with > vim folds) file with my investigations at > . It contains: > > 1) Some nearly unreadable calculations from my (failed) attempt to > discover a "relativistic transformation" in the rule 110 automaton, > after I discovered some apparent order in the velocities of the known > gliders. I still don't know whether it is really impossible. > > Basically, if v is a possible velocity for a glider in ether, then it > seems like (13v-4)/(-12v+15) may also be one. Is there a systematic way > of transforming the "space-time" to show this, similar to a Lorentz > transformation in special relativity? Looks plausible (at very first sight). That would be nice. > > 2) A listing of the 6 essential possibilities for a disturbance > travelling leftwards into ...0000. Toward the right, each of them > becomes a field of gliders in ether, 4 of which go leftwards at speed > -1/2, and so can be used to grow ether leftwards. > > 3) Sketch of a proof that no leftward disturbance in ether can travel > faster than -1/2. > > (Rightwards the max speed is 2/3, and in ether no speed strictly between > 1/5 and 2/3 is possible. This can be shown similarly to the -1/2 > result, but simpler (no offsets necessary). I have also read a claim > that no glider speed between 0 and 1/5 is possible, but I don't see how > to prove this.) > > Greetings, > Řrjan. Are there good sites online on this rule 110 ? From a few experiments (read "the future of ...0001000..."), there appear to be different kinds of "ethers", i.e. solutions periodic both in space and time. There are perturbations which determine the progression of a kind of ether into another kind. About universality (TC) of the automaton, does someone know if Wolfram proves it in its book ? Frédéric vdP From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Sep 02 22:02:15 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19uGMJ-0003zY-Oj; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:58:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:58:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-1m.club-internet.fr ([194.158.104.40]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19uGLz-0003yC-5B for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:58:11 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv4-1-66.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.11.66]) by relay-1m.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 258581711; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:58:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004201c37184$23a16f70$420b2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: Cc: Subject: [lang] [BAK] 99 bottles of beer Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:58:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19uGLz-0003yC-5B*J8U3a5nTcOE* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19uGMJ-0003zY-Oj*m1apXsVlQ5o* .100$$/*$/$$/;*\**$98765432109$@$$;/=$*....$/$;:9!:$$$/;@$...$/$;/:.! !**$$/;*$$/;$0Z9YX$$.$/;@$$;$Z1ojY9ajX..j$@*$.$;@.$$;/=$/*$$/;*$$/.;* $*......$/$;:0!:-:$$.$/;@$...$/$;\:-$/*$.a0b1c2d6e4f0g1h2i5G4j0k1l2m6 n3I8o0p2q6r3J8s0t2u6v4w0x2y5H4z7A0B1C2D6E3$@$$;$0 bottleZ2 of beerZ3. Z$ $Z$; !3. Z$ BAK version of 99 bottles of beer. $Z$\;$/: Z$ August 2003 - Laurent Vogel - http://lvogel.free.fr $Z $\;:8 Z$ BAK info at http://esoteric.sange.fi/orphaned/bak $Z!1sZ4, Z$ $Z$; !5. Take one down, pass it aroundZ6 on the wallZ7No moreZ$@$$;$/*-$$;*\,. $*_____$/$;:Z/!:$$.$/;@$...$/$;/:!**$*abcdefghiGjklmnIa..I like bak ! opqrJstuvwxyHzABCDEF$@$$;/=*\$*..........$/$;:afjswF/!:$$.$/;.......@ $...$/$;/:*\$*......$/$;:jF/!:$$.$/;@$...$/$;/:*\$*.....$/$;:F/!:$$.$ /;@$...$/$;/:! (Give this file a ".bak" extension before running it.) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Sep 02 22:15:34 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19uGbN-0005nG-HQ; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:14:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:13:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay-2m.club-internet.fr ([194.158.104.41]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19uGb3-0005mS-Cg for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:13:45 +0300 Received: from HPPAVILION (lcbv4-1-66.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.11.66]) by relay-2m.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id AB5B9171F for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:13:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <005701c37186$530e2c60$420b2cd5@HPPAVILION> From: "Laurent Vogel" To: References: <53b0e453c31d.53c31d53b0e4@shaw.ca> <001701c361c2$a158b1c0$40122cd5@HPPAVILION> Subject: [lang] Re: New Thue interpreter Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:13:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19uGb3-0005mS-Cg*EuAuyD/ZE4U* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19uGbN-0005nG-HQ*BIamYxV9xCc* Hi, From the discussion concerning how to output newlines in Thue, I think most people were in favor of the most simple alteration of the rule: rules of the form ::=~ when triggered, remove one occurrence of the left hand side from the data space, and output the right-hand-side string, interpreting escape sequences in the right hand side thus: - "\n" means a newline - "\\" means a single backslash - any other \something combination is implementation-dependant. I propose that the last "implementation-dependant" sentence can only be removed when someone provides support for other escape sequences in existing interpreters. If this simple proposal meets agrrement in this list, I propose to publish revised versions or patches of the existing interpreters. With these proposed rules, here is my revised Thue quine: ----8<---- revised thue quine \>::=~ Thue quine, September 2003, Laurent Vogel \n~::=2210001112000100020120000112200210220120211220221000110n01 >0::=0>~00 \2::=\~2 \n01::=22100021120011001201200011112020200101222022011220221000210n02 >1::=1>~01 ~220::=~\\ \n02::=22101001120221102122111200210022012000211012110210111220221010010n10 >n::=2::=2>~02 1<::=<1 \n10::=221010111022110210211221211022120220112200010220120011220221010110n11 2<::=<2 n<::=n>\ \0::=\~0 \n11::=221010211220011022012011100211021001112000010120011220221010210n12 \1::=\~1 0<::=<0 ~00::=~0 \n12::=221020011120001101201111200021012021112010010121011220221020010n20 ~01::=~1 ~02::=~2 ~10::=~::= \n20::=2210201111201011012220221111201021012121112020010122011220221020110n2 1 ~11::=~\n ~12::=~~ ~20::=~> \n21::=2210202111202020110122211112020110122111220221020210n22 ~221::=~n ~21::=~< \n22::=22111101122122002020001020100010220210101020200020201010201002211211n ::= n\220121012><112202211210n~ ----8<---- Laurent Vogel -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Sep 02 23:35:41 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19uHs3-000Ezg-0y; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 23:35:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list sci); Tue, 02 Sep 2003 23:35:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67] ident=[aGiC4fH2l/5ZlUvEsTp2n6O622ezQV/6]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19uHrq-000EyJ-Kg for sci@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 23:35:10 +0300 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:46794 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[iFjpzZTLuqQqv3nq6k4oU4F35pFeo1IJ]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:34:30 +0200 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:31:51 +0200 (CEST) From: Orjan Johansen To: Frederic van der Plancke cc: sci@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [sci] Re: Rule 110 In-Reply-To: <3F545CB1.A96EFB1B@decis.be> Message-ID: References: <000e01c36dfb$9e5b2c60$02032cd5@HPPAVILION> <3F545CB1.A96EFB1B@decis.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19uHrq-000EyJ-Kg*yAWxWXbfEvM* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: sci X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19uHs3-000Ezg-0y*V0fMhr8qlIo* On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Frederic van der Plancke wrote: > Orjan Johansen wrote: > [...] > > Basically, if v is a possible velocity for a glider in ether, then it > > seems like (13v-4)/(-12v+15) may also be one. Is there a systematic wa= y > > of transforming the "space-time" to show this, similar to a Lorentz > > transformation in special relativity? > > Looks plausible (at very first sight). That would be nice. Indeed, although as alluded to in the file, my simplest idea failed: that it should be a simple transformation based on the [ 13 -4] [-12 15] matrix, mapping 1*1 rectangles onto area 98 parallellograms. There is simply nothing to map a uniform 00000 field onto except itself, and then the velocities -1 and 0 would have to be preserved instead of -1/2 and 2/3. I have pondered a little bit the more complicated idea of treating different regions differently, so that ether is mapped to itself as intended above, but 00000 fields are mapped in a different way. The problem then is to make this globally consistent. As part of that I started trying to find linear, approximately preserved "invariants" of rule 110, similar to energy or momentum in physics, that could guide what such a map would look like. But looking at small block sizes (up to 5 or 6, I don't remember) I found only those invariants which are shared by _all_ cellular automata. To check larger block sizes I started to write a Gauss-Jordan eliminator in Haskell, and then got bored with the whole thing. An example of the kind of invariant I am thinking of: Given a block, say 0010111011101101, count the number of times 01 occurs, and subtract the number 10 occurs. The result (1 in this case) is then the value of the invariant for this block. For this invariant the only possible values are -1, 0, 1. Therefore it can only change by small amounts, regardless of the CA rule used. So I think of it as approximately preserved. Another, even more obvious invariant is the length of a block. It is clear that for some CA rules there are invariants that are not shared with all other rules. For example some will preserve the total number of 0's. However, for rule 110 I have not so far been able to find such an invariant, only those shared by all rules. Why should invariants be important for the original mapping problem? Well, imagine that rule 110 _did_ preserve the number of 0's. Then we would have a chance to map 0's in a different way from 1's, for example squeezing them more together, because the invariant could ensure that the blocks fitted together globally. > Are there good sites online on this rule 110 ? > > From a few experiments (read "the future of ...0001000..."), > there appear to be different kinds of "ethers", > i.e. solutions periodic both in space and time. There are perturbations > which determine the progression of a kind of ether into another kind. The best site I've found is the online article . It also discusses other "ethers", but its main focus is on gliders, including the boundaries between different kinds of "ethers". Hey! I just discovered that there are two other rule 110 articles at the same site, see . The first one even seems to discuss some aspects of the universality proof. Off to read... > About universality (TC) of the automaton, does someone know if Wolfram > proves it in its book ? I haven't read the book, but my understanding from what is written elsewhere is that there is (only) a sketch of Cook's proof there, and that nothing better has been made public, due to (!=A4#%&) Wolfram suing his former employee Cook to keep the proof secret until Wolfram's book was published. I don't know whether Cook may publish a proper proof now that Wolfram's book is out, or whether he wants to. Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My esoteric language page: (Mostly Unlambda.) Latest contraption: CHIQRSX9+ interpreter. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Sep 04 12:12:45 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19uq7z-0002mV-D6; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 12:10:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 04 Sep 2003 12:09:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from esoteric by oiva.sange.fi with local (Exim 4.20) id 19uq7j-0002mH-NS for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 12:09:51 +0300 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:09:51 +0300 From: Esoteric languages community To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [listar@esoteric.sange.fi: Message submitted to 'lang'] Message-ID: <20030904090951.GB8243@sange.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: Esoteric languages community X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19uq7j-0002mH-NS*Z1yMCMcFeRI* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: esoteric@sange.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19uq7z-0002mV-D6*2hFZWfQSsNU* --- forwarded message >From andreou@ee.teiath.gr Fri Aug 08 23:06:25 2003 Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lDVE-000GKn-Hp for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:06:20 +0300 Received: from Alitis (ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h78KmbL09468 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 23:48:37 +0300 Message-ID: <012601c35de8$419622a0$3b6b82c3@Alitis> From: "Al. Andreou" To: References: <20030808010259.GE821@ling.helsinki.fi> Subject: Re: [lang] Esoteric languages database Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 23:04:13 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19lDVE-000GKn-Hp*RXvL677N7K6* > I'm not sure whether this has been announced on the list before, but the > esoteric languages database (or whatever it is called at any one moment) > seems to be happy, alive and kicking at > > http://www.kraml.at/stupid/ There is also ODP's page at http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Obfuscated/, additions to and notes on which I would be glad to receive. I'm planning to give the directory a couple of days next week to check for dead links, updates and other languages. Al. Andreou -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Sep 21 11:53:26 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A0zup-000G96-95; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:49:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:49:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from lilly.csoft.net ([63.111.22.101] helo=mail102.csoft.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A0zu3-000G86-9L for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:49:11 +0300 Received: (qmail 9754 invoked by uid 2567); 21 Sep 2003 08:57:22 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 21 Sep 2003 08:57:22 -0000 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 03:57:22 -0500 (EST) From: Jeffry Johnston X-X-Sender: jeffryj@lilly To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [BF] [BFBASIC] New version 0.80 In-Reply-To: <005701c37186$530e2c60$420b2cd5@HPPAVILION> Message-ID: <20030921035346.X9328@lilly> References: <53b0e453c31d.53c31d53b0e4@shaw.ca> <001701c361c2$a158b1c0$40122cd5@HPPAVILION> <005701c37186$530e2c60$420b2cd5@HPPAVILION> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@lilly.csoft.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hi, I've released a new version of my Basic to BF compiler at: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/languages/bfbasic.zip This version fixes a serious bug in the label code and adds optional debug output. Also included are a BFBASIC debugger and BF interpreter. Sources are released under the GPL. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Have fun, Jeff -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Oct 01 04:38:18 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A4VqY-000El8-1O; Wed, 01 Oct 2003 04:32:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 01 Oct 2003 04:31:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ray.idi.ntnu.no ([129.241.107.68] ident=0) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A4Vpm-000EkI-Nn for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 01 Oct 2003 04:31:18 +0300 Received: from furu.idi.ntnu.no (IDENT:25122@furu.idi.ntnu.no [129.241.107.64]) by ray.idi.ntnu.no (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h911VBRL000118 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 03:31:11 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 03:31:11 +0200 (MEST) From: Rune Berge Sender: Rune.Berge@idi.ntnu.no To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Introducing Kipple (yet another esolang) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=4 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-IDI X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rune@krokodille.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang I've finally cleaned up the interpreter and made a web page for my first esoteric language, so here it is: http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/kipple (includes online Java interpreter) Kipple is a minimalistic language inspired by Brainfuck. It is based on stacks, but I believe it's quite different from other stack based languages. I've written a Brainfuck-interpreter which runs Daniel's Universal Turing Machine test correctly, so I assume it is Turing-complete. The language is based around 26 stacks of 32-bit integers, named a-z. There are four operators and one control structure, and that's it. See the web page for details. Here are som code examples: #Hello World: 33>o<100 108>o<114 111>o<87 32>o<111 108>o<108 101>o<72 #cat: (i>o) #25 first fibonacci numbers: 24>n 0>t 1>a (n-1 a+0 tb+a ca@ (@>o) 32>o ) Any comments? Rune -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Oct 01 06:29:52 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A4Xbz-000GoF-OW; Wed, 01 Oct 2003 06:25:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 01 Oct 2003 06:24:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A4XbD-000GnN-Ae for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 01 Oct 2003 06:24:23 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id h913OKm43791 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:24:20 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Introducing Kipple (yet another esolang) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >Kipple is a minimalistic language inspired by Brainfuck. It is based on >stacks, but I believe it's quite different from other stack based >languages. I've written a Brainfuck-interpreter which runs Daniel's >Universal Turing Machine test correctly, so I assume it is >Turing-complete. Right. Again, that should be a reliable test of everything except the stacks' capacities. >Any comments? The program 1>a 2>a a+a could leave the stack at either 1 3 or 1 4 and the spec doesn't seem to say which. Your online interpreter does the second one, and similarly with a-a, which makes it harder to synthesize the > instruction. Anyway. Nice language. -Daniel Cristofani. -- >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[- <<]+<[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>]http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Oct 01 14:20:41 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A4eyV-00010v-FG; Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:16:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:16:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ray.idi.ntnu.no ([129.241.107.68] ident=0) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A4exk-000106-BP for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:16:08 +0300 Received: from furu.idi.ntnu.no (IDENT:25122@furu.idi.ntnu.no [129.241.107.64]) by ray.idi.ntnu.no (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h91BG2RL015735 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 13:16:03 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 13:16:02 +0200 (MEST) From: Rune Berge Sender: Rune.Berge@idi.ntnu.no To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Introducing Kipple (yet another esolang) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.9 required=4 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-IDI X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rune@krokodille.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Daniel. wrote: > >I've written a Brainfuck-interpreter which runs Daniel's Universal > >Turing Machine test correctly, so I assume it is Turing-complete. > > Right. Again, that should be a reliable test of everything except the > stacks' capacities. The stacks are, of couse, of infinite capacity :) However, in my (imperfect) implementation they are constrained by the amount of memory available as in any other language. They are implemented with the java.util.Stack class, and it probably has some theoretical maximum size too (my guess: 2147483647 items). > The program > 1>a > 2>a > a+a > could leave the stack at either > 1 3 > or > 1 4 > and the spec doesn't seem to say which. Your online interpreter does > the second one, and similarly with a-a, which makes it harder to > synthesize the > instruction. Thanks for pointing this out! I haven't thought about this at all. I'm not entirely sure which behavior I'd prefer. Have to think about that one. I don't know what you mean when you talk about synthesizing the > instruction. Please explain... > Anyway. Nice language. Why, thank you :) By the way, I just noticed that the online interpreter doesn't clear the stacks properly between executions, so until I fix it, expect some weird results if you don't reload the applet each time. Rune -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Oct 01 23:46:16 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A4npA-000Crb-MI; Wed, 01 Oct 2003 23:43:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 01 Oct 2003 23:43:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A4noP-000Cqo-PH for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 01 Oct 2003 23:43:06 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id h91Kh2m60532 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 13:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 13:43:00 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Introducing Kipple (yet another esolang) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > > The program >> 1>a >> 2>a >> a+a >> could leave the stack at either >> 1 3 >> or >> 1 4 >> and the spec doesn't seem to say which. Your online interpreter does >> the second one, and similarly with a-a, which makes it harder to >> synthesize the > instruction. > >Thanks for pointing this out! I haven't thought about this at all. I'm not >entirely sure which behavior I'd prefer. Have to think about that one. > >I don't know what you mean when you talk about synthesizing the > >instruction. Please explain... In the version where the above example leaves the stack at "1 3", I think we can replace all instructions of the form "3>a" with sequences of the form "a-3 a-a" and replace all instructions of the form "b>a" with sequences of the form "a-b a-a" whereas in the other version it's harder to find a replacement for ">". -Daniel. -- >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[- <<]+<[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>]http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Oct 02 04:30:50 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A4sGf-000Ilb-IK; Thu, 02 Oct 2003 04:28:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 02 Oct 2003 04:28:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ray.idi.ntnu.no ([129.241.107.68] ident=0) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A4sFt-000Ikn-6A for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 02 Oct 2003 04:27:45 +0300 Received: from furu.idi.ntnu.no (IDENT:25122@furu.idi.ntnu.no [129.241.107.64]) by ray.idi.ntnu.no (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h921ReRL002635 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2003 03:27:40 +0200 (MEST) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 03:27:40 +0200 (MEST) From: Rune Berge Sender: Rune.Berge@idi.ntnu.no To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Introducing Kipple (yet another esolang) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=4 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-IDI X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rune@krokodille.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, Daniel. wrote: > In the version where the above example leaves the stack at "1 3", I > think we can replace all instructions of the form "3>a" with > sequences of the form "a-3 a-a" and replace all instructions of the > form "b>a" with sequences of the form "a-b a-a" whereas in the other > version it's harder to find a replacement for ">". Interesting point. If this can be applied to all cases where > is used we could make a subset of the language without the > operator. And if the integers were made to wrap around we could discard + or - too :D However, it was always my intention to evaluate the expressions from left to right, which means that for the case a+a, the value of a is peeked at before it is popped. Therefore I'll probably stick with the version that is implemented in the interpreter. Rune -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Oct 16 09:41:27 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AA1lf-0002vL-1i; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:37:51 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:37:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from lilly.csoft.net ([63.111.22.101] helo=mail102.csoft.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AA1lJ-0002ut-4q for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:37:29 +0300 Received: (qmail 96212 invoked by uid 2567); 16 Oct 2003 06:40:33 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 16 Oct 2003 06:40:33 -0000 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:40:33 -0500 (EST) From: Jeffry Johnston X-X-Sender: jeffryj@lilly To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [bf] [bfbasic] New version 1.00 (for Java 1.2+) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031016012659.C93807@lilly> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@lilly.csoft.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hi, I've gone crazy and rewrote my BFBASIC compiler for Java (no longer tied to MS-DOS, yay!). In the process I added an algebraic expression parser, and lots of other stuff. It's acting very much like normal Basic at this point, unfortunately at some expense to the BF code size. Added/updated the examples (check out draw.bas, that was fun! :) Java note: It doesn't use any classes past Java 1.2 that I know of, but I compiled it with 1.4 so you may need to recompile if you use an older Java setup. Here is the url: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/languages/bfbasic.zip Jeff Changes since 0.80 ------------------ 1.00 15 Oct 2003 * Ported compiler from Basic to Java, major rewrite of some parts * Added algebraic expression parser * Updated commands to use the expression parser * New commands: DO [WHILE | UNTIL], EXIT DO, LOOP [WHILE | UNTIL], IF...EXIT DO, GOSUB, RETURN, PRINT CHR$, PRINT num, COLOR, LOCATE INPUT array * New expression: expr*expr * Improved debug output line wrapping * Removed V1="a" expression 0.90 23 Sep 2003 * Fixed label bug affecting PRINT * Fixed PRINT parsing bug * Fixed calculation parsing bug that ignored certain illegal operators * IP starts at 1 (instead of 255) for faster exit * Not released -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Oct 17 23:52:47 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AAbXc-000142-C7; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:49:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:49:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from lilly.csoft.net ([63.111.22.101] helo=mail102.csoft.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AAbXG-00013e-FT for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:49:22 +0300 Received: (qmail 15619 invoked by uid 2567); 17 Oct 2003 20:52:45 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 17 Oct 2003 20:52:45 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:52:45 -0500 (EST) From: Jeffry Johnston X-X-Sender: jeffryj@lilly To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [bf] [bfbasic] Version 1.10 In-Reply-To: <20031016012659.C93807@lilly> Message-ID: <20031017154213.F7093@lilly> References: <20031016012659.C93807@lilly> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@lilly.csoft.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hi, Added a few things yesterday: IF THEN...ELSE...END IF blocks (ELSE optional). Works fine, nested etc. ELSE IF doesn't work as you'd expect quite yet, it is seen as ELSE:IF so you would still match all the END IF's. Also added logical AND and OR operators. If anyone wants to tackle the bitwise version of these, that would be excellent. Was going to add FOR but didn't get around to it. Shouldn't be hard to write a WHILE wrapper for it. STEP can be kept with the FOR if you use another stack (STEP should really be with NEXT if you think about it, but that's not the standard basic syntax). I'll try to work out expr1>expr2 today. I had a few versions before but I don't think they were correct. Can't just do expr2255. I wrote a java version but it didn't work right with the high ascii characters (just outputted question marks), and had to run stty cbreak so I could do single character input. What does everyone else use for non-DOS/Windows? Jeff -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Oct 18 00:44:43 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AAcN1-0002Ax-8Y; Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:42:51 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:42:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from lilly.csoft.net ([63.111.22.101] helo=mail102.csoft.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AAcMh-0002Ab-9V for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:42:31 +0300 Received: (qmail 27428 invoked by uid 2567); 17 Oct 2003 21:45:56 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 17 Oct 2003 21:45:56 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:45:56 -0500 (EST) From: Jeffry Johnston X-X-Sender: jeffryj@lilly To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] [bfbasic] Version 1.10 In-Reply-To: <20031017154213.F7093@lilly> Message-ID: <20031017163851.B15748@lilly> References: <20031016012659.C93807@lilly> <20031017154213.F7093@lilly> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@lilly.csoft.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Fri, 17 Oct 2003, Jeffry Johnston wrote: > Also a question. Does my interpreter act different than the rest? It Just remembered pibfi. Tried getting it from catseye, but it doesn't seem to be working. Anyone heard from Chris lately? How is he doing? Anyone have a copy of pibfi they'd be willing to e-mail? Thanks, Jeff -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Oct 21 14:41:16 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ABupV-000AIe-8I; Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:37:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:37:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from deluge.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.120.66] ident=[PRn+k4Z3hX663+z7uGTW7wydN+4kSByL]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ABup9-000AID-C2 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:37:15 +0300 Received: from hail.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.120.74]) by deluge.umist.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1ABup2-0000by-Du for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:37:08 +0100 Received: from localuser by hail.umist.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.31 #2) id 1ABup2-0001kQ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:37:08 +0100 Received: from 130.88.160.50 ( [130.88.160.50]) by webmail1.umist.ac.uk with HTTP; Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:37:08 +0100 Message-ID: <1066736228.3f951a644c64a@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:37:08 +0100 From: Jeffey Lee To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [befunge] Compilers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: based on Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: me@phlamethrower.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hi, For those of you who haven't spotted it yet, I've got a Befunge 98-to-almost- anything compiler on my website at http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan- colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/interp.php Yes it does miss various important features such as support for j and x, error returning instructions, fingerprints, optimisation, and self-modification, but since the compiler is written in Befunge I'm sure you can forgive me ;) The current release only outputs C code, but adding extra output formats should be relatively easy. At the moment I'm doing a course on compilers/languages at uni, so there's a chance I'll be doing some major updates to the compiler soon - so what features would people be interested in? * Support for j and x * Error returning instructions * Fingerprints * Optimisation * More output formats * Self modification, or some steps towards it (i.e. allowing strings and constants to be modified) * Same-line wrapping, SGML stringmode and other spec compliancy features * Support for unefunge, trefunge, etc. * A rewrite in C to save my sanity The compiler will work on FBBI 0.98, but only if you've applied the patches that were posted to this list in July - if you need a copy of them then just ask. The compiler is perfectly capable of compiling itself, as long as you can live with only one output format (Normally the code would be loaded at run time, but for that to work I'd need self-modification support). To forgoe the step of tracking a copy of FBBI down, you can grab a precompiled version of the compiler on my site (for producing C output). You'll also find some rough tech docs on how it works, as well as an older, optimising, Befunge-93 compiler written in Prolog. Cheers, Jeffrey PS - Don't forget to check out all my other Befunge programs too ;) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Oct 21 14:49:20 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ABuzO-000AZH-5r; Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:47:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:47:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from cloudburst.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.119.66] ident=[TA71nz4oZ/mskltgdeBuaziJ+KrZEanw]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ABuz3-000AYu-U5 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:47:30 +0300 Received: from hail.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.120.74]) by cloudburst.umist.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1ABuz3-0003fa-6V for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:47:29 +0100 Received: from localuser by hail.umist.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.31 #2) id 1ABuz3-0001vq-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:47:29 +0100 Received: from 130.88.160.50 ( [130.88.160.50]) by webmail1.umist.ac.uk with HTTP; Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:47:29 +0100 Message-ID: <1066736849.3f951cd116e0b@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:47:29 +0100 From: Jeffey Lee To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: based on Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: me@phlamethrower.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang This is a test message, to see if my configuration is working properly (Seems to have got a bit messed up). Please ignore :) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Oct 22 15:57:06 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ACIUl-000HBa-F4; Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:53:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:53:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from deluge.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.120.66] ident=[aT0glZzX+GD2IOpZ50jQhWCEaM8ajwwj]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ACIUP-000HB3-1k for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:53:25 +0300 Received: from hail.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.120.74]) by deluge.umist.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1ACIUN-0002Sm-7g for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:53:23 +0100 Received: from localuser by hail.umist.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.31 #2) id 1ACIUN-0000Qt-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:53:23 +0100 Received: from 130.88.160.48 ( [130.88.160.48]) by webmail1.umist.ac.uk with HTTP; Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:53:22 +0100 Message-ID: <1066827202.3f967dc2ec362@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:53:22 +0100 From: Jeffey Lee To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [befunge] Fibonacci (was Compilers) References: <1066736228.3f951a644c64a@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: based on Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: me@phlamethrower.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Quoting "Daniel." : > As a brainfuck nut who is used to seeing people make silly mistakes > in their brief dabblings in brainfuck, I thought I would consult a > Befunge nut, now that I've found one, about my one brief dabbling in > Befunge. Is there a more concise way to output Fibonacci numbers in > Befunge-93 than this: > > 1>\:.:"Y"-v > @^g:\+p00:_ > > or is there anything else wrong with it? (Starting with 0 is deliberate.) By rearranging your code a bit I've managed to craft a short linear version which starts with 1 1: 1\:00p+00g\:."#"00p This weighs in at 19 instructions compared to your 22 (And could be reduced to 16 if run in unefunge). However it does lack any exit code so will continue looping forever. Adding exit code makes it a lot messier - stopping at 89 like your original goes something like this: 1\:00p+00g\:.:"X"`!74**"@"+00p (30 instructions; changes 00 to '\' to continue or '@' to quit) But you can also extend the range to 233 without too much difficulty: 1\:00p+00g\:.:99*/1`!74**"@"+00p (32 instuctions; checks the result of a division by 81) Plus of course there are the wound up versions like yours. The only way I've found of making yours shorter is to forgoe the exit check, like this: 1\>:00p+ v ^.:\g00< Which is 10x2, with 3 wasted spaces (And it starts from 1 1). The shortest 2-deep one with an exit check I've found so far is 1\>:00p+00g\v @_^#!-"Y":.:< Which is 26 cells. If you don't mind a slightly irregular shape though then there's always 1\>:00p+00gv |-"Y":.:\< @ Which is 23 instructions, possibly the shortest possible. There are also a few other fibonacci programs on mooz's site, the main features being a lack of getting/putting: http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/befunge.html Hope that helps! ;) Cheers, Jeffrey -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Oct 23 05:43:49 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ACVNj-0007xb-29; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 05:39:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 23 Oct 2003 05:39:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ACVNN-0007xB-59 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 23 Oct 2003 05:39:01 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id h9N2ctN04016 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1066827202.3f967dc2ec362@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> References: <1066736228.3f951a644c64a@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> <1066827202.3f967dc2ec362@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:38:57 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: [befunge] Fibonacci (was Compilers) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >But you can also extend the range to 233 without too much difficulty: Ahhh. I was using Chris Pressey's bef.c version 2.20, which uses signed chars. >There are also a few other fibonacci programs on mooz's site, the >main features >being a lack of getting/putting: Interesting. I didn't know that was possible. >Hope that helps! ;) Definitely. Thank you. -Daniel. -- >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[- <<]+<[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>]http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Oct 24 00:57:48 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ACnPV-0005t8-Tk; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:54:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:54:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from lilly.csoft.net ([63.111.22.101] helo=mail102.csoft.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ACnP9-0005sh-W9 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:54:04 +0300 Received: (qmail 31155 invoked by uid 2567); 23 Oct 2003 21:53:57 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 23 Oct 2003 21:53:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:53:57 -0500 (EST) From: Jeffry Johnston X-X-Sender: jeffryj@lilly To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [bf] [bfbasic] Version 1.20 Message-ID: <20031023164943.N29766@lilly> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@lilly.csoft.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hi, Lots of fixes, improvements and new stuff in this release. Check it out. http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/languages/bfbasic.zip Jeff 1.20 23 Oct 2003 * New commands: BF (for raw BF commands), ?, WHILE, WEND, SYSTEM, LET, STOP, FOR, NEXT, EXIT FOR, IF...EXIT FOR * Upgraded L# labels to free text labels * Rewrote expr1expr2, expr1>expr2, expr1>=expr2, expr1<=expr2, expr1/expr2 * PRINT now supports ; and multiple expressions per line * Updated CLS, COLOR, and LOCATE to use the new ; syntax * Only outputs pre() and post() code when needed -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Oct 30 11:25:19 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AF8zy-000C3E-Ul; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:21:47 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:21:31 +0200 (EET) Received: from lilly.csoft.net ([63.111.22.101] helo=mail102.csoft.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AF8zd-000C2o-Ve for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:21:26 +0200 Received: (qmail 81105 invoked by uid 2567); 30 Oct 2003 09:21:21 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 30 Oct 2003 09:21:21 -0000 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:21:21 -0500 (EST) From: Jeffry Johnston X-X-Sender: jeffryj@lilly To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [bf] [bfbasic] Version 1.30 Message-ID: <20031030040505.K78213@lilly> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@lilly.csoft.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hi, I've released another new version or BFBASIC just in time for halloween, hopefully it's more of a treat than trick. I've added a simple pseudorandom number generator via RND, INPUT (as a decimal number, no backspace support yet), INKEY (like original INPUT for reading characters), and also made it *nix friendly (LF is the default EOL for i/o) at Daniel's request, thanks! :). Use -c for MS-DOS compatibility. The random number generator was fun to write (16-bit math using 8-bit cells), and is simply the equation N = (31821 * N + 13849) % 65536). I got the mult and inc values for the mod 65536 linear congruential generator from an old TI DSP reference, the numbers seem to be decent when using the MSB, but of course don't use it for crypto ;). RANDOMIZE KEY lets you type some garbage on the keyboard and push Enter to seed N. Get 1.30 here: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/languages/bfbasic.zip As always, please let me know if you have suggestions or if you make improvements. Thanks, Jeff 1.30 30 Oct 2003 * Added -c option for CR LF = newline (LF now the default) * New commands: RANDOMIZE KEY * Modified commands: INPUT (as decimal), BF * New expressions: INKEY, RND (uses N=(31821*N+13849)%65536) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Nov 01 21:31:20 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AG1QE-00069P-Kn; Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:28:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:28:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from lilly.csoft.net ([63.111.22.101] helo=mail102.csoft.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AG1Pt-000692-1j for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:28:09 +0200 Received: (qmail 59879 invoked by uid 2567); 31 Oct 2003 21:41:24 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 31 Oct 2003 21:41:24 -0000 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:41:24 -0500 (EST) From: Jeffry Johnston X-X-Sender: jeffryj@lilly To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [bf] BFBot 0.10 Message-ID: <20031031163721.Q58698@lilly> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@lilly.csoft.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hi, Just for fun I made a Java IRC bot that lets you enter code and run it, with the output going to whatever channel the bot is in (probably #esoteric). I'm not running it right now, but if you are interesting in downloading and compiling the source is here (just the one file is all you need). Requires Java 1.1 or later: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/languages/bfbot.java The bot makes no active attempt to stay alive besides responding to server pings, so I don't know how long it would last on irc.freenode.net, but it works and is fun to play with :) Jeff -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Nov 07 10:55:09 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AI20X-0005PL-3E; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:30:17 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:30:01 +0200 (EET) Received: from web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.12.10.45]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AI1zw-0005My-Tp for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:29:40 +0200 Message-ID: <20031107082842.76264.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.100.133.65] by web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 08:28:42 GMT Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 08:28:42 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stephen=20Sykes?= Subject: [lang] ETA C compiler To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <20031030040505.K78213@lilly> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Well the dark evenings are getting longer here in Helsinki, and what better to fill the time than to write a C compiler for a bizarre language. And I'm sure you will agree that there should be some free market competition for Jeffry Johnston's marvellous BFBASIC. I believe my product is competitively priced. It's also free. Anyway, you can find the ETA C compiler project here: http://www.stephensykes.com/etacc.html You may recall that ETA is a stack based language with only 7 instructions. Of course there's nothing particularly scientifically interesting in what I've done - ETA is a Turing complete language after all. But have you ever tried to write a compiler for a machine that has no registers or addressable storage? When all you have is just one stack, which you don't even know the depth of, things get a little hairy. The compiler certainly does not support the full ANSI spec. That said, I do support the following features: int short long char unary ops: & * + - ~ ! prefix ++ -- postfix ++ -- binary ops: * / % + - << >> < > <= >= == != & ^ | && || ternary op: ?: assignment = *= /= %= += -= <<= >>= &= |= ^= [] subscripts if, if else, while, do while, for, continue break, return, goto, sizeof Pointers, arrays, strings, character constants and so on are fully supported, and even recursion works. If you play with it at all, let me know how many bugs you find. Have fun Stephen +- S.D.Sykes - www.stephensykes.com | "Finland is a nice country, if you do not take into account the | country's location, weather, and people" -- Neil Hardwick ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Nov 07 14:38:00 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AI5cf-000B9E-Ey; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:21:53 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:21:38 +0200 (EET) Received: from cloudburst.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.119.66] ident=[hPF77mGrDoiBXraGfHPw9RR/hRAPMhNj]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AI5c5-000B7m-6s for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:21:17 +0200 Received: from hail.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.120.74]) by cloudburst.umist.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AI5bP-0008Nj-OZ for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:20:35 +0000 Received: from localuser by hail.umist.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.31 #2) id 1AI5bP-0003B7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:20:35 +0000 Received: from 130.88.134.46 ( [130.88.134.46]) by webmail1.umist.ac.uk with HTTP; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 12:20:35 +0000 Message-ID: <1068207635.3fab8e1395e71@webmail1.umist.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 12:20:35 +0000 From: Jeffey Lee To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [befunge] New Befunge98-to-C compiler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: based on Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: me@phlamethrower.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hi, You'll be glad to hear that I've now written successor to befc V2, unsurprisingly called befc V3. This time it's written in C (and only has support for output of C code), but includes the following new features: * Optimisation * Support for j and x * Full support for k * Error returning/generating instructions * SGML stringmode * Same-line wrapping * ... and probably a few other things as well You can grab a copy of befc 3 from my website, at http://www.phlamethrower.co.uk/befunge/interp.php#compilers (Note the use of my shorter URL this time; the other one was a bit overkill for an 80-column email ;)). There's no binary included, but that shouldn't pose too much of a problem since you'll be needing a C compiler to compile the output anyway. Next on the cards is taking some more steps towards making my own C-to-Befunge compiler. What with BFBASIC, C-to-ETA, Befunge-to-C and (hopefully) soon a C-to-Befunge compiler, I wonder who will be the first to rise to the challenge of writing a Malbolge compiler? Cheers, Jeffrey -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Nov 10 05:35:00 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AJ2R8-0007xr-Cp; Mon, 10 Nov 2003 05:09:54 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 10 Nov 2003 05:09:39 +0200 (EET) Received: from lilly.csoft.net ([63.111.22.101] helo=mail102.csoft.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AJ2Qc-0007x0-Lu for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 10 Nov 2003 05:09:22 +0200 Received: (qmail 60853 invoked by uid 2567); 10 Nov 2003 03:08:58 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 10 Nov 2003 03:08:58 -0000 Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:08:58 -0500 (EST) From: Jeffry Johnston X-X-Sender: jeffryj@lilly To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: ETA C compiler In-Reply-To: <20031107082842.76264.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031109213806.E49293@lilly> References: <20031107082842.76264.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@lilly.csoft.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hi, Wow, what an accomplishment! Haven't been able to run any programs yet (didn't finish installing Ruby), but etacc compiles fine on Cygwin, if you make a cc to gcc symbolic link first: ln -s /bin/gcc /bin/cc Looking at the output for my hastily written Hello World, it appears that you actually wrote the compiler in two parts. etacc compiles C to Ruby code. Running the Ruby code would seem to output the ETA code. :) One question: The ETA spec describes 8 instructions. Did you artificially limit yourself to 7 or was that a typo? Take care, Jeff -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Nov 10 23:00:56 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AJIt0-0009z6-7w; Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:43:46 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:43:31 +0200 (EET) Received: from web41606.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.93.106]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AJIsK-0009xG-VX for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:43:05 +0200 Message-ID: <20031110204217.28757.qmail@web41606.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [157.178.1.101] by web41606.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:42:17 PST Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:42:17 -0800 (PST) From: neozen Subject: [lang] request for help with IAG To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: neodymiumg@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang been on the list for a week and decided to post as this has been troubling me for a while: has anyone on this list ever heard of a language called iag? I found an interpreter for it here: http://sange.fi/~atehwa/small-esoteric/iag.c and some sample programs here: http://sange.fi/~atehwa/small-esoteric/iag/ and I'm still confused. am I just dim or was this written with a similar goal to that of malbolge (be impossible, or at least very hard, to use) any further information on this language would be geatly appreciated. (whoisneozen@yahoo.com) thank you all for your time, Ross Heflin ===== * / ^ --- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Nov 10 23:41:22 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AJJdB-000B1b-EY; Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:31:29 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:31:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from web41601.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.93.101]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AJJcb-000Az1-UT for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:30:54 +0200 Message-ID: <20031110212936.57843.qmail@web41601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [157.178.1.101] by web41601.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:29:36 PST Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:29:36 -0800 (PST) From: neozen Subject: [lang] addendum: request for help with IAG To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: neodymiumg@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang the url for the sample programs was wrong ::sigh:: : the actual url is this: http://sange.fi/~atehwa/small-esoteric/iag-src/ please forgive my lack of sleep ===== * / ^ --- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 11 22:31:55 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AJemW-000ITZ-0M; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:06:32 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:06:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net ([159.134.118.25]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AJem1-000IRQ-AA for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:06:01 +0200 Received: (qmail 3854 messnum 267140 invoked from network[159.134.237.90/webmail05.eircom.net]); 11 Nov 2003 20:05:03 -0000 Received: from webmail05.eircom.net (HELO webmail.eircom.net) (159.134.237.90) by mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 3854) with SMTP; 11 Nov 2003 20:05:03 -0000 From: "Keith Gaughan" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: request for help with IAG Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:43:40 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 157.190.2.240 X-Mailer: Eircom Net CRC Webmail (http://www.eircom.net/) Organization: Eircom Net (http://www.eircom.net/) Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: kmgaughan@eircom.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang lang@esoteric.sange.fi wrote: > the url for the sample programs was wrong ::sigh:: : > > the actual url is this: > http://sange.fi/~atehwa/small-esoteric/iag-src/ > > please forgive my lack of sleep Hello all! My lord it's a long time since I've posted here! Well, iag is the creation of Panu Kalliokoski, who actually hosts this list. I can't remember all that much about how it works, but take a quick peek at http://www.kraml.at/stupid/iag.html for some details. The spec was originally posted by Panu on the Cats Eye Technology list (this list's predecessor), but Chris and the site seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth and I for one don't have a copy of the archives. I *may* have a printout of the spec, but my collection of posts is 200 miles away and I won't be able to take a look till christmas. I'm afraid you'll have to figure it for yourself: see it as a challenge!:-) K. -- Keith Gaughan | hereticmessiah.weblogs.com | www.talideon.com It used to be full of stars, but now I'm full of scars. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Nov 12 15:24:39 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AJudG-000Eb8-5H; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:02:02 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:01:46 +0200 (EET) Received: from web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.12.10.41]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AJucb-000EYX-Cw for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:01:21 +0200 Message-ID: <20031112130030.15509.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.120.100.173] by web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:00:30 GMT Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:00:30 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stephen=20Sykes?= Subject: [lang] Re: ETA C compiler To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <20031109213806.E49293@lilly> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hi... > Wow, what an accomplishment! Haven't been able to run any programs yet > (didn't finish installing Ruby), but etacc compiles fine on Cygwin, if > you make a cc to gcc symbolic link first: > > ln -s /bin/gcc /bin/cc Yes, I also found that it compiles ok under cygwin, but the ruby part failed to work correctly. I will try to investigate this asap when I get back from travelling in two weeks. > Looking at the output for my hastily written Hello World, it appears > that you actually wrote the compiler in two parts. etacc compiles C to > Ruby code. Running the Ruby code would seem to output the ETA code. :) You are correct. The intermediate language uses my Ruby libraries, and is in fact a ruby program. It was easier for me to write it that way, mostly because I like Ruby so much. > One question: The ETA spec describes 8 instructions. Did you > artificially limit yourself to 7 or was that a typo? Thanks, it's a mistake. I use the full set - a,e,h,i,o,n,s,t. Regards, Stephen ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 13 20:41:25 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AKM21-0000lt-6y; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:17:25 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:17:09 +0200 (EET) Received: from web41609.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.93.109]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AKM1J-0000kF-LF for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:16:41 +0200 Message-ID: <20031113181554.34434.qmail@web41609.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [157.178.1.101] by web41609.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:15:54 PST Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:15:54 -0800 (PST) From: neozen Subject: [lang] Re: request for help with IAG To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: neodymiumg@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang to kmgaughan@eircom.net danke but I already have that url.. sadly it is not much help hehe... well ..if you do have a copy of that spec (albeit many miles away).. christmas isn't THAT far away :GRIN: :::pokes the iag compiler with a stick::: ...dratted C ...I currently know C++ so that helps a little... but not much... one of my main problems lies with this line: mem[mp] = acc = acc - mem[mp]; as I see it, this line zero's out both variables... is this correct? ===== * / ^ --- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 13 21:10:10 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AKMfp-0001eY-E3; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:58:33 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:58:18 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net ([159.134.118.20]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AKMfJ-0001d9-UY for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:58:02 +0200 Received: (qmail 90458 messnum 2217407 invoked from network[159.134.237.90/webmail05.eircom.net]); 13 Nov 2003 18:57:05 -0000 Received: from webmail05.eircom.net (HELO webmail.eircom.net) (159.134.237.90) by mail04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 90458) with SMTP; 13 Nov 2003 18:57:05 -0000 From: "Keith Gaughan" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: request for help with IAG Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:35:39 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 157.190.2.219 X-Mailer: Eircom Net CRC Webmail (http://www.eircom.net/) Organization: Eircom Net (http://www.eircom.net/) Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: kmgaughan@eircom.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang lang@esoteric.sange.fi wrote: > to kmgaughan@eircom.net > > danke but I already have that url.. sadly it is not > much help hehe... well ..if you do have a copy of that > spec (albeit many miles away).. christmas isn't THAT > far away :GRIN: Well, I'll se what I can do. > :::pokes the iag compiler with a stick::: ...dratted C > ...I currently know C++ so that helps a little... but > not much... one of my main problems lies with this > line: > > mem[mp] = acc = acc - mem[mp]; > > as I see it, this line zero's out both variables... is > this correct? Nope, it's just subtracting a memory location from the accumulator and setting the accumulator and the memory location to that value. If I get a free day (which is improbable, but not impossible), I'll print off the code, pour myself a beer, and figure out what's going on inside. K. -- Keith Gaughan | hereticmessiah.weblogs.com | www.talideon.com It used to be full of stars, but now I'm full of scars. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Nov 19 17:49:52 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AMUXl-000N61-8k; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:47:01 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:46:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from maim.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.214.216] helo=maim) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AMUXR-000N5f-1z for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:46:41 +0200 Received: from atehwa by maim with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AMUZx-0000Bb-00; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:49:17 +0200 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:49:17 +0200 From: Panu To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Cc: whoisneozen@yahoo.com Subject: [lang] Re: request for help with IAG Message-ID: <20031119154907.GD627@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi, whoisneozen@yahoo.com References: <20031110204217.28757.qmail@web41606.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031110204217.28757.qmail@web41606.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Panu X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 12:42:17PM -0800, neozen wrote: > has anyone on this list ever heard of a language > called iag? That's my language :) > I found an interpreter for it here: > http://sange.fi/~atehwa/small-esoteric/iag.c > > and some sample programs here: > http://sange.fi/~atehwa/small-esoteric/iag/ > > and I'm still confused. am I just dim or was this > written with a similar goal to that of malbolge (be > impossible, or at least very hard, to use) Hmm, true - but actually iag just tries to minimise the instruction set, it does not purposefully make the commands hard to use. (They do become hard to use, when you only have 3 for everything). iag cheats a little (but just a little) by giving "system calls" under the command `|', but they're not actually needed for Turing equivalence. > any further information on this language would be > geatly appreciated. (whoisneozen@yahoo.com) There's no documentation on the language, because I couldn't come up with a clearer spec for the language than the interpreter itself. But okay, here is a short tutorial: The actual commands are <, =, |. s, d and x are very useful for debugging, but they're not part of the actual language. Other characters are ignored. The program operates on a semi-infinite tape, and the commands < and = are all that is available for manipulating it. There is also an accumulator for holding state. < rewinds the tape one place, = calculates the difference between the value in the accumulator and the current value on the tape, stores it in both _and_ makes the tape go forward. Suppose the tape has "0 0 0 <29> 75" on it (the reader head marked by <>) and the accum. has the value 10, then the sequence "=<=<" effectively zeroes the current location: =: 0 0 0 -19 <75>, acc -19 <: 0 0 0 <-19> 75, acc -19 =: 0 0 0 0 <75>, acc 0 <: 0 0 0 <0> 75, acc 0 Suppose the tape has "<13> 27 57" and the accum. has value 0, the sequence "==<<=<==<<=<" effectively adds the two numbers: =: -13 <27> 57, acc -13 =: -13 -40 <57>, acc -40 <<: <-13> -40 57, acc -40 =<=: 0 <-40> 57, acc 0 (zeroing as above) =: 0 40 <57>, acc 40 <<: <0> 40 57, acc 40 =<: <40> 40 57, acc 40 basically, most calculation operations can be formed by < and =; however, sometimes you need some other constant than 0 (which is the only constant you can reliably form). Then you need `=<=||', which gives you a 1. Other constants can be formed from the 1. For control flow, you only have `|'. The current value of the accumulator governs the behavior of the | command. If positive, you get a system call (selected by the number in the accu); if zero, you get a forward jump and 1 at the accumulator (as above; the jump is why we put two |'s in a row, as the first one jumps to the second one); if negative, you get a backward jump. The backward jump is one way to get conditionals: the absolute value of the accum. says how many |'s to jump back. A saner way is to set the value of the accumulator to 0 or 1 on approaching |, because the former causes a jump and the latter is a system call guaranteed to do nothing. Thinking now, I am not quite sure whether you can normalise values into truth values (equivalent to !!x in C, also called the nonzero predicate). Hmm. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Nov 19 18:45:05 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AMVQf-000OSO-VE; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:43:46 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:43:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from bay7-f38.bay7.hotmail.com ([64.4.11.38] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AMVQM-000ORW-Bg for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:43:26 +0200 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:42:53 -0800 Received: from 12.208.169.63 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:42:52 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.208.169.63] X-Originating-Email: [lmtbl@hotmail.com] From: "Tristan Parker" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] IAG tutorial Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:42:52 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Nov 2003 16:42:53.0409 (UTC) FILETIME=[2D544D10:01C3AEBC] X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Considering the etherial nature of things online (where did catseye go anyway?) I've put your tutorial onto my storage-journal at http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/rosencrantz/7135.html for posterity. At least untill something more concrete comes along. That Journal also has my earlier work, ODDBALL, for which I would really like to see an interpreter made. I would write it myself, but I am really bad at normal programming languages. Much (platonic) love, Tristan >52*"moc.liamtoh@lbtml"> #, :# _v_ #: ,# <"lmtbl@hotmail.com"*25< ^ p*48">">"<"84*p ^ magnae clunes mihi placent, nec possum de hac re mentiri. _________________________________________________________________ Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 20 02:52:19 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AMd0p-0008tS-D0; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 02:49:35 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 20 Nov 2003 02:49:18 +0200 (EET) Received: from tank-fep2-0.inet.fi ([194.251.242.242] helo=fep17.tmt.tele.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AMd0S-0008sI-M7 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 02:49:12 +0200 Received: from humma ([80.222.40.57]) by fep17.tmt.tele.fi (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20031120004909.EOZO22905.fep17.tmt.tele.fi@humma> for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 02:49:09 +0200 Received: from atehwa by humma with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AMd0O-0001pp-00 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 02:49:08 +0200 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 02:49:08 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: request for help with IAG Message-ID: <20031120004908.GA7047@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20031113181554.34434.qmail@web41609.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031113181554.34434.qmail@web41609.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 10:15:54AM -0800, neozen wrote: > mem[mp] = acc = acc - mem[mp]; > as I see it, this line zero's out both variables... is > this correct? This was probably clear from my prev posting, but the clause above calculates the difference between the current cell and the accumulator, and only then stores it in both. So no, they don't necessarily end up being zero, only if they had the same value to start with. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 20 03:38:31 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AMdk3-0009wW-Kk; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 03:36:19 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 20 Nov 2003 03:36:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from bay7-f20.bay7.hotmail.com ([64.4.11.20] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AMdjh-0009vc-Tz for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 03:35:58 +0200 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:35:25 -0800 Received: from 12.208.169.63 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:35:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.208.169.63] X-Originating-Email: [lmtbl@hotmail.com] From: "Tristan Parker" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] Re: IAG tutorial Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:35:25 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Nov 2003 01:35:25.0214 (UTC) FILETIME=[9216D3E0:01C3AF06] X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > > That Journal also has my earlier work, ODDBALL, for which I would really > >Where was this? Sorry, I forgot to put the link in. http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/rosencrantz/738.html Much (platonic) love, Tristan >52*"moc.liamtoh@lbtml"> #, :# _v_ #: ,# <"lmtbl@hotmail.com"*25< ^ p*48">">"<"84*p ^ magnae clunes mihi placent, nec possum de hac re mentiri. >From: Panu Kalliokoski >To: Tristan Parker >Subject: Re: [lang] IAG tutorial >Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 03:05:11 +0200 > >On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 08:42:52AM -0800, Tristan Parker wrote: > > Considering the etherial nature of things online (where did catseye go > > anyway?) I've put your tutorial onto my storage-journal at > > http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/rosencrantz/7135.html for >posterity. > > At least untill something more concrete comes along. > >Okay... I don't have much time to work on minor things like iag, so >"something more concrete" might be a long time away... > > >Panu > >-- >personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 >work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 >kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ >homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ _________________________________________________________________ Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 20 18:00:31 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AMrBB-0003s8-Hd; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:57:13 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:56:58 +0200 (EET) Received: from lilly.csoft.net ([63.111.22.101] helo=mail102.csoft.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AMrAp-0003ri-Pi for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:56:51 +0200 Received: (qmail 3599 invoked by uid 2567); 20 Nov 2003 15:56:48 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 20 Nov 2003 15:56:48 -0000 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:56:48 -0500 (EST) From: Jeffry Johnston X-X-Sender: jeffryj@lilly To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: IAG tutorial In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031120105053.S1473@lilly> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@lilly.csoft.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Hi, I took a look at the spec. How would you do this: > $ continues assesing a situation untill it is mostly stable (a loop) This seems difficult to determine. Jeff On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Tristan Parker wrote: > > > That Journal also has my earlier work, ODDBALL, for which I would really > > > >Where was this? > > Sorry, I forgot to put the link in. > http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/rosencrantz/738.html > > Much (platonic) love, Tristan > > >52*"moc.liamtoh@lbtml"> #, :# _v_ #: ,# <"lmtbl@hotmail.com"*25< > ^ p*48">">"<"84*p ^ > magnae clunes mihi placent, nec possum de hac re mentiri. > > > > > > >From: Panu Kalliokoski > >To: Tristan Parker > >Subject: Re: [lang] IAG tutorial > >Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 03:05:11 +0200 > > > >On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 08:42:52AM -0800, Tristan Parker wrote: > > > Considering the etherial nature of things online (where did catseye go > > > anyway?) I've put your tutorial onto my storage-journal at > > > http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/rosencrantz/7135.html for > >posterity. > > > At least untill something more concrete comes along. > > > >Okay... I don't have much time to work on minor things like iag, so > >"something more concrete" might be a long time away... > > > > > >Panu > > > >-- > >personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 > >work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 > >kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ > >homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage > now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > > -- > To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: > unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] > unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] > > -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Nov 21 00:19:44 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AMx78-000Bhd-5r; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 00:17:26 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 21 Nov 2003 00:17:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from bay7-f76.bay7.hotmail.com ([64.4.11.76] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AMx6m-000Bgd-J3 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 00:17:04 +0200 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:16:27 -0800 Received: from 12.208.169.63 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:16:27 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.208.169.63] X-Originating-Email: [lmtbl@hotmail.com] From: "Tristan Parker" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] Re: ODDBALL Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:16:27 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Nov 2003 22:16:27.0358 (UTC) FILETIME=[F0FC4FE0:01C3AFB3] X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lmtbl@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >I took a look at the spec. How would you do this: > > > $ continues assesing a situation untill it is mostly stable (a loop) Ooh, I'd forgotten about that. I think that might violate the halting problem, I'm not sure though. You could have a construct which remembers the program's state, and if it is ever the same twice then that's a loop, but that would be so memory and time intensive that it would be completely impractical. Not that ODDBALL is practical for anything anyway. I don't think that command is useful for anything anyway, since those commands can only return one state. I think I'll just take it out of the spec. Much (platonic) love, Tristan >52*"moc.liamtoh@lbtml"> #, :# _v_ #: ,# <"lmtbl@hotmail.com"*25< ^ p*48">">"<"84*p ^ magnae clunes mihi placent, nec possum de hac re mentiri. _________________________________________________________________ From the hottest toys to tips on keeping fit this winter, you’ll find a range of helpful holiday info here. http://special.msn.com/network/happyholidays.armx -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 03 19:03:26 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ARaON-0005EK-U4; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:02:24 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:02:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from lilly.csoft.net ([63.111.22.101] helo=mail102.csoft.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ARaOB-0005Dz-JQ for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:02:11 +0200 Received: (qmail 98355 invoked by uid 2567); 3 Dec 2003 17:02:07 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 3 Dec 2003 17:02:07 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:02:07 -0500 (EST) From: Jeffry Johnston X-X-Sender: jeffryj@lilly To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [bf] Genetic Programming for text generation In-Reply-To: <3F545CB1.A96EFB1B@decis.be> Message-ID: <20031203113035.A86822@lilly> References: <000e01c36dfb$9e5b2c60$02032cd5@HPPAVILION> <3F545CB1.A96EFB1B@decis.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@lilly.csoft.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hi, I've made a text generator for BF that either uses genetic algorithms or genetic programming (not sure which) in an attempt to find the optimal (shortest) program to print the text. I have very little background in ga/gp, but here were some of my observations as I worked on this project: 1) It is difficult to get gp to use loops. It would rather use a bunch of +'s than a loop, because with initial values the loop isn't as good, freezes, etc. I overcame this by using a fixed structure. This was based on an 111-byte "Hello World!\n" (probably optimal), where they set up a multiply loop with several memory cells, then used those cells to print the text, choosing (with < >) and altering (+ -) the "best" one to form each letter. The best cell isn't always obvious, for example it could always choose the closest matching cell, but it might make it worse for the next letter than if it used a different cell. 2) It is best not to expect too much at once. At first I was expecting the gp to both optimize the program and generate correct text. It tried, but progress was extremely slow. It worked much better to force it to print the correct text regardless of how bad the program was (using lots of+/- if needed), then optimize on size alone. 3) There needs to be a mix of small changes and large changes. The changes I found useful were: mutation, crossover, regenerating the poorest candidates, and another that I would call hostile takeover (copy a decently performing individual over a poor one, but swap something around to test out multiple combinations of something good). Hostile takeover worked even better when the changes were consistent, for example if I swapped two of the multiplicand terms then it worked better to also swap the < and > in the text generation to match. If I changed the multiplier, then it worked better to also change the multiplicands to produce similar numbers as before. 4) At first progress is rapid, since everything is uncharted territory, but then things slow down to a crawl. Basically it is waiting for a random mutation or new individual to randomly break the old record. Once a decent candidate is found is found, then that is usually quickly improved to a better one. So, progress occurs in spurts. It is rare to find the optimal solution in the initial burst of activity. My program could probably be improved in this area to do something different (not sure what would help) when progress slows so that it can more quickly get moving again. This was a fun project, and I'm sure if I had more time or a book it could improved a lot. I've posted the project to my webpage here: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/languages/textgen.java It is GPL. Feel free to play around with it and please let me know if you've figured out a way to improve it. Jeff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 05 15:45:40 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ASGD8-000BFG-Nw; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:41:34 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:41:19 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.39]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ASGCp-000BEx-2k for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:41:15 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.214.194]) by mail.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hB5DfEZm013721 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:41:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1ASGCl-0000cF-00 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:41:11 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:41:11 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [games] announcing pimputin Message-ID: <20031205134111.GA2360@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang I guess you guys might take interest in pimputin, the curses-based simulation-like game made in Python(>=2.2) that lets you play with "objects" in a 2D world where many objects represent different sounds and the colors of those objects represent their pitch. Sound is played through esound. Rejoice! The code is available for download at: http://sange.fi/~atehwa/pimputin.tar.gz for browsing at: http://sange.fi/~atehwa/pimputin/ and the documentation is available at: http://sange.fi/~atehwa/cgi-bin/piki.cgi/pimputin Looking forward to hearing comments from you (not that I expect there will be many)... Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 15 18:43:08 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVvkj-0002Rp-2s; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:39:25 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:39:09 +0200 (EET) Received: from mxout2.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.33.4]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVvkP-0002RV-LP for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:39:05 +0200 Received: from mailhost1.u.washington.edu (mailhost1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.141]) by mxout2.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id hBFGd14l007646 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 08:39:02 -0800 Received: from BDesktop (cs312-23.spmodem.washington.edu [140.142.174.126]) by mailhost1.u.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with SMTP id hBFGd0Hk010230 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 08:39:00 -0800 Message-ID: <000401c3c32a$04af0e90$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> From: "Brian Thompson" To: Subject: [lang] Help with a new language Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:47:27 -0800 Organization: University of Washington MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C3C2AD.6523ED90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: brianct@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C3C2AD.6523ED90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am designing a programming language for fun and amusement, because its = fun and amusing. I fell in love with a programming language known as = Befunge (which most people on an esoteric language mailing list should = be familiar with) when I first ran across it and decided to write a = language that utilized the 2D nature of Befunge (and much else that I = saw that was good about it), but corrected what my limited view saw as = flaws might keep it from being largely unused to the general populace. = As I mentioned, the language is largely based on befunge (if you really = ARE unfamiliar with it - go to = http://staff.xmms.org/zinx/misc/spec98.html for more information). = Befunge operates in a 2D programming space so that in addition to = keeping track of where the instruction pointer (from now on abbreviated = as IP), one must also keep track of the direction in which it is = travelling. The most important lesson that I took from my first programming class is = that good programming code is modular - it saves space and time to write = one Foo function every time you want to Foo something, yet Befunge has = no way of calling functions (or methods or proceedures, in most = languages, these all describe similar behavior). When I say that I want = the ability to 'call a function', what I am referring to is a syntax for = being able to jump to a piece of code, do stuff, and return to where the = IP came from, regardless of where it was that the IP actually came from. = Befunge's 2D nature gives rise to an interesting dilemma of needing = instruction widths to be 1 character in length. After a couple weeks of = deliberation, I have come up with some solutions that take into account = the 1 character limit, feel free to take a look at them and comment on = them, make suggestions for new solutions, or tell me which one of the = solutions I have already come up with you feel would be best; either on = this list or at the link. The link is = www.livejournal.com/wildhalcyon/58793.html Thank you very much for any comments and suggestions! Brian Brian Thompson Senior in Electrical Engineering University of Washington ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C3C2AD.6523ED90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am designing a programming language for fun and = amusement,=20 because its fun and amusing. I fell in love with a programming language = known as=20 Befunge (which most people on an esoteric language mailing list should = be=20 familiar with) when I first ran across it and decided to write a = language=20 that utilized the 2D nature of Befunge (and much else that I saw that = was good=20 about it), but corrected what my limited view saw as flaws might keep it = from=20 being largely unused to the general populace. As I mentioned, the = language is=20 largely based on befunge (if you really ARE unfamiliar with it - go = to http://staff.xmms.or= g/zinx/misc/spec98.html=20 for more information). Befunge operates in a 2D programming space so = that in=20 addition to keeping track of where the instruction pointer (from now on=20 abbreviated as IP), one must also keep track of the direction in which = it is=20 travelling.
The most important lesson that I took from my first = programming=20 class is that good programming code is modular - it saves space and time = to=20 write one Foo function every time you want to Foo something, yet Befunge = has no=20 way of calling functions (or methods or proceedures, in most languages, = these=20 all describe similar behavior). When I say that I want the ability to = 'call a=20 function', what I am referring to is a syntax for being able to jump to = a piece=20 of code, do stuff, and return to where the IP came from, regardless of = where it=20 was that the IP actually came from. Befunge's 2D nature gives rise to an = interesting dilemma of needing instruction widths to be 1 character in = length.=20 After a couple weeks of deliberation, I have come up with some solutions = that=20 take into account the 1 character limit, feel free to take a look at = them and=20 comment on them, make suggestions for new solutions, or tell me which = one of the=20 solutions I have already come up with you feel would be best; either on = this=20 list or at the link. The link is www.livejourna= l.com/wildhalcyon/58793.html
 
Thank you very much for any comments and=20 suggestions!
Brian
 
 

Brian Thompson
Senior in Electrical Engineering
University of=20 Washington
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C3C2AD.6523ED90-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 15 19:16:25 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVwI6-0003El-CW; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:13:54 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:13:39 +0200 (EET) Received: from mxout5.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.135]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVwHm-0003EQ-Ih for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:13:34 +0200 Received: from mailhost1.u.washington.edu (mailhost1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.141]) by mxout5.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id hBFHDVK4006258 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:13:31 -0800 Received: from BDesktop (cs312-23.spmodem.washington.edu [140.142.174.126]) by mailhost1.u.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with SMTP id hBFHDTHk016648 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:13:30 -0800 Message-ID: <002101c3c32e$d6c12540$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> From: "Brian Thompson" To: References: <000401c3c32a$04af0e90$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> <20031215120625.X30208@lilly> Subject: [lang] Re: Help with a new language Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:13:55 -0800 Organization: University of Washington MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: brianct@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang That is my fault, the correct site should be: www.livejournal.com/users/wildhalcyon/58793.html Brian regrets the error. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 15 19:39:46 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVweW-0003mG-OZ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:37:04 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:36:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from novusordo.net ([216.194.67.38] helo=idiom.novusordo.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVweC-0003lG-Vr for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:36:45 +0200 Received: by idiom.novusordo.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 1494754CB; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:36:11 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:36:11 -0700 From: Jesse van Herk To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Help with a new language Message-ID: <20031215173611.GA96694@idiom.novusordo.net> References: <000401c3c32a$04af0e90$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000401c3c32a$04af0e90$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jvanherk@jess2.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 01:47:27AM -0800, Brian Thompson wrote: > describe similar behavior). When I say that I want the ability to 'call a > function', what I am referring to is a syntax for being able to jump to a piece > of code, do stuff, and return to where the IP came from, regardless of where it Funge-98 supports fingerprint extensions, and the RC/funge interpreter comes with a Subroutine fingerprint ("SUBR" 0x53554252 Subroutine extension). It works by grabbing a vector from the stack and jumping to that location. Instructions are Call, Jump, and Return. This seems like the fungiest solution to me. Interestingly, Rc/funge also support the idea of 'minifunge', which sounds somewhat like your kanji macro idea. Rc/funge seems to have disappeared off the internet, but I've got documentation and downloadable (patched) source here: http://www.jess2.net/code/funge/ -- Jesse "Deltaman" van Herk | Usenet Rule #2 (John Gilmore): "The Net http://www.jess2.net/ | interprets censorship as damage and routes | around it." -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 15 20:09:11 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVx6w-0004Sb-My; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:06:26 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:06:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from pop.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.15]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVx6d-0004SG-Sw for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:06:08 +0200 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p3/8.11.6p3) with ESMTP id hBFI65v83382 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:06:05 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002101c3c32e$d6c12540$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> References: <000401c3c32a$04af0e90$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> <20031215120625.X30208@lilly> <002101c3c32e$d6c12540$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:06:02 -0800 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Help with a new language Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang One of the simplest solutions would be to have a function-call instruction: to call a function, you put the absolute coordinates of the function's beginning on the stack, then execute the function-call instruction. Then you'd need a matching return instruction. The only con I can see is remembering the numbers for each function. One question is whether to push a new delta for the IP onto the stack as well, or just (usually) set that at the other end with > or the like. Anyway, the old delta should be saved, and restored when the function is returned from... This solution may be graceless, but it's probably closest to the spirit of Befunge. -Daniel Cristofani. -- >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[- <<]+<[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>]http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 15 20:15:51 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVxDo-0004dX-5f; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:13:32 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:13:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtp-1.hut.fi ([130.233.228.91] ident=root) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVxDU-0004dB-Mn for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:13:12 +0200 Received: from sesefras.gehennom.org (sesefras.tky.hut.fi [130.233.18.59]) by smtp-1.hut.fi (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBFIDCl3020256 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:13:12 +0200 Received: from iki.fi (unknown [192.168.2.7]) by sesefras.gehennom.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4432FF1DA for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:12:04 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <3FDDFA07.4060204@iki.fi> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:14:31 +0200 From: Heikki Kallasjoki User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031013 Thunderbird/0.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Help with a new language References: <000401c3c32a$04af0e90$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> <20031215173611.GA96694@idiom.novusordo.net> In-Reply-To: <20031215173611.GA96694@idiom.novusordo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030212) (smtp-1.hut.fi) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp-1.hut.fi id hBFIDCl3020256 X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fizban@iki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Jesse van Herk wrote: > Funge-98 supports fingerprint extensions, and the RC/funge interpreter = comes with > a Subroutine fingerprint ("SUBR" 0x53554252 Subroutine extension). It = works by > grabbing a vector from the stack and jumping to that location. Instruct= ions are Call, > Jump, and Return. This seems like the fungiest solution to me. Mmm. The original message lead to an irc conversation about how to=20 implement function calls in a fungy way. Our conclusion is pretty close=20 to this "SUBR"-extension, but with few notable differences. First off, a completely coordinate-based 'call' instruction has the=20 drawback that when you rearrange code, the function entry point may well=20 move, and then you'd need to fix all the instances where the function is=20 called. In our proposed system, functions have integer labels (character=20 labels being uglier), and you map them to coordinates with a 'D'=20 (define) instruction, that would pop two coordinates and an integer. The=20 function call instruction, J, would then pop just a single integer from=20 the stack and jump to the correct location. Your description of the "SUBR" extension doesn't tell, how the IP=20 direction behaves on jump. We decided we'd like more if the direction=20 would stay unchanged, because then you'd have four possible "entry=20 points" and "exits" out of the function. Would be worth the minor=20 usability loss of not being able to 'go through a function' from=20 different directions. We'd also thought about using @ as the exit command, since that way=20 existing programs could easily be used as functions without any changes.=20 This wasn't planned as a funge98 extension (personally I find '98 far=20 too baroque), so the un-redefinability of @ doesn't matter. A funge98=20 extension version of this could of course use 'X' or 'R' or some other=20 character. The discussion seems to have turned from a befunge-inspired language to=20 variants of befunge, so I could add that any non-ascii usage (kanji,=20 colours, multi-character cells (how would these work with=20 put/get-self-modification anyway?)) sounds decidedly unfungeish. - Heikki Kallasjoki fizban@iki.fi [Message contents heavily influenced by one 'Juha J=E4rvi' via IRC, too.=20 The http://quux.befunge.org/ person.] -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 15 20:37:59 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVxYD-0005CR-CN; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:34:37 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:34:21 +0200 (EET) Received: from novusordo.net ([216.194.67.38] helo=idiom.novusordo.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVxXt-0005BO-KZ for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:34:17 +0200 Received: by idiom.novusordo.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 04A9154CB; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:33:47 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:33:46 -0700 From: Jesse van Herk To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Help with a new language Message-ID: <20031215183346.GJ96694@idiom.novusordo.net> References: <000401c3c32a$04af0e90$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> <20031215173611.GA96694@idiom.novusordo.net> <3FDDFA07.4060204@iki.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FDDFA07.4060204@iki.fi> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jvanherk@jess2.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 08:14:31PM +0200, Heikki Kallasjoki wrote: > Your description of the "SUBR" extension doesn't tell, how the IP > direction behaves on jump. We decided we'd like more if the direction It sets the direction to (1,0,0), and restores it on return. -- Jesse "Chien Andalusia" van Herk | It uses the clapper. *clap*. See, it http://www.jess2.net/ | just calculated pi! Now SHUT UP! -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 15 23:05:05 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVzrs-0008Tg-Mw; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:03:04 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:02:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from mxout4.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.33.19]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AVzrZ-0008TL-KV for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:02:45 +0200 Received: from mailhost2.u.washington.edu (mailhost2.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by mxout4.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id hBFL2g9n020524 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:02:42 -0800 Received: from BDesktop (cs307-66.spmodem.washington.edu [140.142.172.67]) by mailhost2.u.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with SMTP id hBFL2exd015741 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:02:41 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c3c34e$db672020$43ac8e8c@BDesktop> From: "Brian Thompson" To: References: <000401c3c32a$04af0e90$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> <20031215173611.GA96694@idiom.novusordo.net> <3FDDFA07.4060204@iki.fi> Subject: [lang] Re: Help with a new language Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 13:03:13 -0800 Organization: University of Washington MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mxout4.cac.washington.edu id hBFL2g9n020524 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: brianct@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang I am okay with doing things that are "unfungeish"; the language is inspir= ed by more than just Befunge, although you can't really tell from all of thi= s - I am hoping to add some elements from Joy and Forth, and Perl as well. Adding non-ascii characters, or color, or extra cells, or anything like t= hat would be extremely unfungeish. I've loved the fact that this email has sparked a small flurry of interes= t from the community. Im hoping to come up with ideas that work regardless = of fungeness, something that may not go around the funge syntax, but might h= ave to rewrite the book of funge to make a new language. Okay, maybe not the whole book. A significant chapter though. This has been a lot of fun so f= ar, thank you. Brian ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Heikki Kallasjoki" To: Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 10:14 AM Subject: [lang] Re: Help with a new language Jesse van Herk wrote: > Funge-98 supports fingerprint extensions, and the RC/funge interpreter comes with > a Subroutine fingerprint ("SUBR" 0x53554252 Subroutine extension). It works by > grabbing a vector from the stack and jumping to that location. Instructions are Call, > Jump, and Return. This seems like the fungiest solution to me. Mmm. The original message lead to an irc conversation about how to implement function calls in a fungy way. Our conclusion is pretty close to this "SUBR"-extension, but with few notable differences. First off, a completely coordinate-based 'call' instruction has the drawback that when you rearrange code, the function entry point may well move, and then you'd need to fix all the instances where the function is called. In our proposed system, functions have integer labels (character labels being uglier), and you map them to coordinates with a 'D' (define) instruction, that would pop two coordinates and an integer. The function call instruction, J, would then pop just a single integer from the stack and jump to the correct location. Your description of the "SUBR" extension doesn't tell, how the IP direction behaves on jump. We decided we'd like more if the direction would stay unchanged, because then you'd have four possible "entry points" and "exits" out of the function. Would be worth the minor usability loss of not being able to 'go through a function' from different directions. We'd also thought about using @ as the exit command, since that way existing programs could easily be used as functions without any changes. This wasn't planned as a funge98 extension (personally I find '98 far too baroque), so the un-redefinability of @ doesn't matter. A funge98 extension version of this could of course use 'X' or 'R' or some other character. The discussion seems to have turned from a befunge-inspired language to variants of befunge, so I could add that any non-ascii usage (kanji, colours, multi-character cells (how would these work with put/get-self-modification anyway?)) sounds decidedly unfungeish. - Heikki Kallasjoki fizban@iki.fi [Message contents heavily influenced by one 'Juha J=E4rvi' via IRC, too. The http://quux.befunge.org/ person.] --=20 To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 17 23:38:51 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AWjKp-000IrO-9R; Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:35:59 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:35:43 +0200 (EET) Received: from bumba-din.bumba.net ([66.92.173.198]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AWjKU-000IqR-8p for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:35:38 +0200 Received: from hmaon by bumba-din.bumba.net with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AWjJv-0007Dx-00 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:35:03 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:35:03 -0500 From: Greg Velichansky To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Help with a new language Message-ID: <20031217213503.GA26626@bumba.net> References: <000401c3c32a$04af0e90$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> <20031215173611.GA96694@idiom.novusordo.net> <3FDDFA07.4060204@iki.fi> <001301c3c34e$db672020$43ac8e8c@BDesktop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001301c3c34e$db672020$43ac8e8c@BDesktop> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: hmaon@bumba.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Brian Thompson, on Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 01:03:13PM -0800 wrote: > I am okay with doing things that are "unfungeish"; Hm, then you might enjoy wasting a few minutes with own little black sheep of a Befunge-93 derivative, at http://bumba.net/~hmaon/hbef/ It also supports function calls but with an extra stack for return addresses. It also has a third stack for something else that I never actually used. This is the doc: http://bumba.net/~hmaon/hbef/newops.txt http://bumba.net/~hmaon/hbef/cheapbeer.hbf is the only real program. It actually runs slower than a pure Befunge-93 "99 bottles..." program does in the same interpreter. :) Of course, this thing is rather uh... ingenuous? Unsophisticatd? (As opposed to ingenious. It's disingenious but that's not a word. "Disingenuous" is a word but it's sort of the opposite of what I mean.) Anyway, it's really unfungeish in a mostly uninteresting way. Personally, of the ideas you listed, I like the "high-altitude solution" the most. I really don't like the color-coding idea; one of my good friends is color blind and I wouldn't want to alienate him even if Paul Klee doesn't care. -- Greg V. (hmaon) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 31 05:01:46 2003 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AbWYo-0005ia-Dg; Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:58:14 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:57:59 +0200 (EET) Received: from tank-fep4-0.inet.fi ([194.251.242.244] helo=fep19.tmt.tele.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1AbWYU-0005iG-ER for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:57:54 +0200 Received: from humma ([80.222.37.180]) by fep19.tmt.tele.fi (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with ESMTP id <20031231025754.XGLG13101.fep19.tmt.tele.fi@humma>; Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:57:54 +0200 Received: from atehwa by humma with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AbWYU-0000Ks-00; Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:57:54 +0200 Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 04:57:54 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: Brian Thompson Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Help with a new language Message-ID: <20031231025752.GB1265@humma.sange.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Brian Thompson , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <000401c3c32a$04af0e90$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000401c3c32a$04af0e90$7eae8e8c@BDesktop> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 01:47:27AM -0800, Brian Thompson wrote: > The most important lesson that I took from my first programming class > is that good programming code is modular - it saves space and time to > write one Foo function every time you want to Foo something, yet > Befunge has no way of calling functions (or methods or proceedures, in Well, depends on how general you want to be. Befunge already gives you means to go to a specific piece of code from many sources, you only have to implement the return operation; and you can do that by writing some "<>^v" instructions somewhere after the exit point of the routine. And cleaning them up afterwards. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc]