From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Nov 01 16:01:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 187cLT-000POh-00; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 16:00:19 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 01 Nov 2002 16:00:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 187cIF-000PNl-00; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:56:59 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:56:51 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 187cI6-000PNf-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:56:50 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id gA1DsMi6019673 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:54:22 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 187cE2-0003vR-00 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:52:38 +0200 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:52:38 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Amalthea - an Io interpreter Message-ID: <20021101135238.GC14813@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <200210140009.ACA95284@express.cites.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, Oct 14, 2002 at 03:24:00PM +0200, Martin Sandin wrote: > Amalthea is found at: > http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/~d97masa/files/amalthea084.zip > > The distro includes some documentation, the OCaml sources, a Windows(tm) > binary, some examples, and the small standard Io library. Compiling > under Linux should pose no problem (or threat). :-) This is quite cool stuff. Where is the online chapter from Advanced Programming Language Design you mention in intro.html? From a quick look at the sources, you seem to emulate continuations by returning tuples instead of using the native tail-calls of Ocaml. Some reason for that? Panu -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Nov 01 19:24:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 187fWs-000PtL-00; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 19:24:18 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 01 Nov 2002 19:24:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 187fW5-000PtD-00; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 19:23:29 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 01 Nov 2002 19:23:21 +0200 (EET) Received: from fort-point-station.mit.edu ([18.7.7.76]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 187fVx-000Pt7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 19:23:21 +0200 Received: from central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (CENTRAL-CITY-CARRIER-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.72]) by fort-point-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA15519 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:23:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from manawatu-mail-centre.mit.edu (MANAWATU-MAIL-CENTRE.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.71]) by central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA29095 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.2.2] (TOPQUARK.MIT.EDU [18.242.1.162]) by manawatu-mail-centre.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA13259 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:20:22 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20021101135238.GC14813@ling.helsinki.fi> References: <200210140009.ACA95284@express.cites.uiuc.edu> <20021101135238.GC14813@ling.helsinki.fi> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:20:32 -0500 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] Re: Amalthea - an Io interpreter Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >This is quite cool stuff. Where is the online chapter from Advanced >Programming Language Design you mention in intro.html? I went looking for it and it appeared to no longer be available on the publisher's site. Try: http://www.nondot.org/sabre/Mirrored/AdvProgLangDesign/ Io is discussed in Chapter 2. -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 07 23:17:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 189u0H-000IS6-00; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 23:15:53 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 07 Nov 2002 23:15:46 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 189txJ-000IRj-00; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 23:12:49 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 07 Nov 2002 23:12:41 +0200 (EET) Received: from mta03.btfusion.com ([62.172.195.12] helo=FUSMTA03-LRS) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 189txB-000IRa-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 23:12:41 +0200 Received: from [213.121.105.144] (helo=baroness) by FUSMTA03-LRS with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189twe-0002Vc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:12:08 +0000 Received: from djf by baroness with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 189u2B-0004IO-00 for ; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:17:51 +0000 From: David Fletcher MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15818.55422.821033.939615@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:17:50 +0000 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] _code archive available X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid Sender: David Fletcher X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: david@bubblycloud.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: david@bubblycloud.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Catching up with the list, I see that some people have been doing stuff with _code. Excellent! This has encouraged me to put a copy on my webspace so it isn't Lost To Posterity. As far as I remember I haven't changed anything since I posted it to the list. It's at http://home.btclick.com/djfletcher/prog/_code.tar (Hmm, are underscores legal in URLs? It seems to work anyway.) -- David. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Nov 13 23:28:46 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18C52n-000Ec0-00; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:27:29 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:27:22 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18C4zd-000Eb0-00; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:24:13 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:24:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from asteroids.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.176]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18C4zU-000Eat-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:24:04 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 19435 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2002 21:23:26 -0000 Received: from 59.15.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.15.59]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 13 Nov 2002 21:23:26 -0000 Message-ID: <3DD2BFF1.4080507@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:11:13 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: braifuck golf rules References: <3DB85CAA.5020704@dds.nl> <20021028085113.GB3107@ling.helsinki.fi> <3DBF0426.8090705@dds.nl> <20021030071705.GB11702@ling.helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > On Tue, Oct 29, 2002 at 10:56:54PM +0100, Milo van Handel wrote: > >>>>that the judges have to specify whether EOF may be read or not. For >>>>example, it may be read in round zero (where the program gets arbitrary >>>>text as input), but not in round one (which always has a single byte of >>>>input), unless the >>>>number to be converted is 0. Also not in the hypothetical case of >>>>return-terminated input, though I doubt such will ever arise. >>>> >>>Yes. The input will have to be emulated or there will have to be >>>some specific code meaning "this byte was never supposed to be read, >>>so disqualify the program". Not very hard to implement, but I wonder >>>whether the judging implementation allows for this. >>> >>"Never supposed to be read"? Why give it a byte that it's not allowed to >>read? Just drop it from the input of the interpreter. >> > > What I meant was quite technical: simply that if the interpreter is > driven as a proper subprocess, there should be some value signifying > "end of input", and that value cannot be EOF, because EOF is sometimes > valid input. Your solution also works, I just think it's nicer to put > EOF into the input if it's valid input instead of having a separate > "may-read-eof/may-not-read-eof" flag or command line switch. Another solution would be to define an "escape" character, which, followed by two hex digits, is read as meaning the corresponding ASCII character (which may be itself). Then escape-zero-zero would be EOF. > Never mind. The proper way to do this is executing the code in an emulated > environment, anyway. (At least IMO.) Sure. But then you need to define how the emulated environment is emulated. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 14 09:21:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CEJB-000FUA-00; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:21:01 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:20:54 +0200 (EET) Received: from web40501.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.78.118]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CEJ3-000FU4-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:20:54 +0200 Message-ID: <20021114072021.26849.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.60.119.187] by web40501.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:20:21 GMT Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:20:21 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mathew=20Carr?= Subject: Trefunge... To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1737845326-1037258421=:26451" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mattycarr_uk@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --0-1737845326-1037258421=:26451 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Has anyone make some fort of visual trefunge? and if they have, where can i get it? And if they haven't... would anyone be interested in the one i'm making? --------------------------------- Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. --0-1737845326-1037258421=:26451 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Has anyone make some fort of visual trefunge? and if they have, where can i get it?

And if they haven't... would anyone be interested in the one i'm making?


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--0-1737845326-1037258421=:26451-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 14 21:23:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CPaH-000INN-00; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:23:25 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:23:18 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CPZU-000INC-00; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:22:36 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:22:28 +0200 (EET) Received: from fort-point-station.mit.edu ([18.7.7.76]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CPZL-000IN6-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:22:28 +0200 Received: from grand-central-station.mit.edu (GRAND-CENTRAL-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.82]) by fort-point-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA08566 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:22:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (MELBOURNE-CITY-STREET.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.86]) by grand-central-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA10412 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:22:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [18.51.5.36] (HAYDEN-THIRTY-SIX.MIT.EDU [18.51.5.36]) by melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA19087 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:22:23 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3DD2BFF1.4080507@dds.nl> References: <3DB85CAA.5020704@dds.nl> <20021028085113.GB3107@ling.helsinki.fi> <3DBF0426.8090705@dds.nl> <20021030071705.GB11702@ling.helsinki.fi> <3DD2BFF1.4080507@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:22:36 -0500 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: braifuck golf rules Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >Another solution would be to define an "escape" character, which, followed >by two hex digits, is read as meaning the corresponding ASCII character >(which may be itself). Then escape-zero-zero would be EOF. This is very useful in general -- I would suggest that an escape character be part of any BF interpreter. I've been using a backquote as an escape in my own implementations. So `00 would be EOF (and `60 would be a backquote). -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 14 21:42:42 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CPso-000ISy-00; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:42:34 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:42:28 +0200 (EET) Received: from 004.209-115-210-0.interbaun.com ([209.115.210.4] helo=impulse.novusordo.net ident=qmailr) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CPsh-000ISs-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:42:27 +0200 Received: (qmail 26196 invoked by uid 0); 14 Nov 2002 19:42:28 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO impulse.novusordo.net) (jvanherk@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 19:42:28 -0000 Received: (from jvanherk@localhost) by impulse.novusordo.net (8.12.6/8.12.2/Submit) id gAEJgRSH015285 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:42:27 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:42:27 -0700 From: Jesse van Herk To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: Trefunge... Message-ID: <20021114194227.GB4551@impulse.novusordo.net> References: <20021114072021.26849.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021114072021.26849.qmail@web40501.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-URL: http://www.jess2.net X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: thebottomlessvoid@jess2.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Nov 14, 2002 at 07:20:21AM +0000, Mathew Carr wrote: >Has anyone make some fort of visual trefunge? and if they have, where can i get > it? I haven't. > And if they haven't... would anyone be interested in the one i'm making? I would be. :) -- Jesse "secret agent man" van Herk | "Sprinkle this magic mixture on your http://www.jess2.net/ | flowerbeds, and nothing will grow, thus | leaving you with plenty of leisure for | other things." From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 14 22:12:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CQLl-000IZs-00; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:12:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:12:23 +0200 (EET) Received: from web40509.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.78.126]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CQLe-000IZm-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:12:23 +0200 Message-ID: <20021114201150.17770.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.60.45.68] by web40509.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:11:50 GMT Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:11:50 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mathew=20Carr?= Subject: Visual Trefunge - 02 To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1319091081-1037304710=:15715" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mattycarr_uk@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --0-1319091081-1037304710=:15715 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am making Visual Trefunge in darkBASIC (I know... don't say it. I know its crud) It's kind of an Expanded Befunge-93... I have collected all the commands I need and am at the moment, doing final testing and graphical stuff.... Theres only one problem, the whole ubercube... (thats what i've come to call it O_O) is 3d... and each Trefunge element is a plane... Simply put, it runs slow as hell with a maxed out program in it. The dimensions of the ubercube are 40*40*40... and there's only a few minor adjustments to the commands from BF93. However... unfortunately, due to the fact that no-one's invented a 3d notepad yet... my Trefunge will not use ascii files. It will use its own special format of files... (Simply a list of the ascii codes of every character in the cube in a special sequence) Any suggestions, comments, or general malarkey... please tell meee! - matt. --------------------------------- Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. --0-1319091081-1037304710=:15715 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I am making Visual Trefunge in darkBASIC (I know... don't say it. I know its crud)

It's kind of an Expanded Befunge-93... I have collected all the commands I need and am at the moment, doing final testing and graphical stuff....

Theres only one problem, the whole ubercube... (thats what i've come to call it O_O) is 3d... and each Trefunge element is a plane... Simply put, it runs slow as hell with a maxed out program in it.

The dimensions of the ubercube are 40*40*40... and there's only a few minor adjustments to the commands from BF93.

However... unfortunately, due to the fact that no-one's invented a 3d notepad yet... my Trefunge will not use ascii files. It will use its own special format of files... (Simply a list of the ascii codes of every character in the cube in a special sequence)

Any suggestions, comments, or general malarkey... please tell meee! -

matt.


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--0-1319091081-1037304710=:15715-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 14 22:36:39 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CQj0-000IdS-00; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:36:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:36:23 +0200 (EET) Received: from 004.209-115-210-0.interbaun.com ([209.115.210.4] helo=impulse.novusordo.net ident=qmailr) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CQis-000IdM-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:36:23 +0200 Received: (qmail 11241 invoked by uid 0); 14 Nov 2002 20:36:24 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO impulse.novusordo.net) (jvanherk@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 14 Nov 2002 20:36:24 -0000 Received: (from jvanherk@localhost) by impulse.novusordo.net (8.12.6/8.12.2/Submit) id gAEKaNo0005585 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:36:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:36:22 -0700 From: Jesse van Herk To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: Visual Trefunge - 02 Message-ID: <20021114203622.GB31307@impulse.novusordo.net> References: <20021114201150.17770.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021114201150.17770.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jvanherk@jess2.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Nov 14, 2002 at 08:11:50PM +0000, Mathew Carr wrote: > O_O) is 3d... and each Trefunge element is a plane... Simply put, it runs slow > as hell with a maxed out program in it. > The dimensions of the ubercube are 40*40*40... and there's only a few minor > adjustments to the commands from BF93. > However... unfortunately, due to the fact that no-one's invented a 3d notepad >yet... my Trefunge will not use ascii files. It will use its own special format >of files... (Simply a list of the ascii codes of every character in the cube in > a special sequence) > Any suggestions, comments, or general malarkey... please tell meee! - I've got a 3d funge semi-editor written in funge. It only barely counts as an editor, but it uses the 3d funge-file spec. I'd recommend you use that instead of some new format. It's in the funge-98 spec, IIRC. -- Jesse "CFT" van Herk | Will _you_ help me change my pants? http://www.jess2.net/ | From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Nov 15 02:15:31 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CU6j-000JAA-00; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:13:13 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:13:07 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CU3z-000J9h-00; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:10:24 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:10:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18CU3q-000J9b-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:10:15 +0200 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (ttm@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gAF0A6p06302 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:10:07 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3DB85CAA.5020704@dds.nl> <20021028085113.GB3107@ling.helsinki.fi> <3DBF0426.8090705@dds.nl> <20021030071705.GB11702@ling.helsinki.fi> <3DD2BFF1.4080507@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:10:07 -0800 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: braifuck golf rules Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >>Another solution would be to define an "escape" character, which, followed >>by two hex digits, is read as meaning the corresponding ASCII character >>(which may be itself). Then escape-zero-zero would be EOF. > >This is very useful in general -- I would suggest that an escape >character be part of any BF interpreter. I would suggest it NOT be part of most of them; it basically constitutes a language extension and I don't think brainfuck should be extended except in cases of dire need and maybe not then. In cases where a brainfuck program HAS to distinguish EOF from all 256 values of a byte, the best move seems to be to use a 16-bit dialect and EOF=-1. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Nov 17 07:02:16 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DHYB-000Pap-00; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 07:00:51 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 17 Nov 2002 07:00:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DHVk-000PaZ-00; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:58:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:58:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DHVb-000PaT-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:58:11 +0200 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gAH4w5U24793; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:58:06 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:58:03 -0800 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi, friends-of-brainfuck@koeln.ccc.de From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Universal Turing machine in brainfuck. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~cristofd/utm.b -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Nov 17 20:30:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DUAe-0000md-00; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:29:24 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:29:17 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DU9G-0000m9-00; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:27:58 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:27:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from hugin.diku.dk ([130.225.96.144] ident=qmailr) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DU98-0000m3-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:27:50 +0200 Received: (qmail 25251 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 18:27:44 -0000 Received: from ask.diku.dk (expen@130.225.96.225) by hugin.diku.dk with QMQP; 17 Nov 2002 18:27:44 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:27:44 +0100 (MET) From: Espen Suenson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?New_programming_language=3A_Bel=E9n?= Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: expen@diku.dk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: expen@diku.dk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Bel=E9n is a turing complete superset of the programming language SMETANA. Bel=E9n admits the following three commands: N. Go to step X. N. Swap step X with step Y. N. Copy Z steps to step X. Bel=E9n also sports relative addressing, that is, X and Y above may be e.g. 9, +9 or -9 (where +9 is interpreted as N + 9). In addition, Bel=E9n has an IO-system inspired by that of Lazy-K. The main attraction of Bel=E9n is that it has no notion of data. I might finish the interpreter upon request, but not until next year. Best regards Espen --=20 A PROCESSION of the damned. By the damned, I mean the excluded. We shall have a procession of data that Science has excluded. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Nov 18 07:29:02 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DeSJ-0001r5-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:28:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:28:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DeQn-0001qx-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:26:45 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:26:37 +0200 (EET) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd4mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DeQe-0001qr-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:26:36 +0200 Received: from pd4mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr3so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.214]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H5R00COCB3GRI@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:26:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from pn2ml4so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml4so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.148]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.6 (built Apr 26 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H5R00505B3GQM@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:26:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from shelter (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H5R00ARQB3FX7@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:26:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:21:30 -0800 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: New programming language: =?UNKNOWN?Q?Bel=E9n?= In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20021117132130.1c9cb9c7.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE References: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:27:44 +0100 (MET) Espen Suenson wrote: > Bel=E9n is a turing complete superset of the programming language S= METANA. > Bel=E9n admits the following three commands: >=20 > N. Go to step X. >=20 > N. Swap step X with step Y. >=20 > N. Copy Z steps to step X. >=20 > Bel=E9n also sports relative addressing, that is, X and Y above may= be e.g. > 9, +9 or -9 (where +9 is interpreted as N + 9). >=20 > In addition, Bel=E9n has an IO-system inspired by that of Lazy-K. Interesting, but how does that make it any more Turing-complete than SMETANA already is? Nikita Ayzikovsky -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Nov 18 10:45:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DhWa-0002Py-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:44:56 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:44:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DhV8-0002Pn-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:43:26 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:43:18 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DhUz-0002Pb-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:43:17 +0200 Received: from irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.66]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id gAI8hD311810 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:43:13 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.2) id gAI8hCf04593 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:43:12 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:43:12 +0100 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5Blang=5D_Re:_New_programming_language:_Bel=E9n?= Message-ID: <20021118094312.A4425@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20021117132130.1c9cb9c7.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <20021117132130.1c9cb9c7.ayzik@shaw.ca>; from Nikita Ayzikovsky on Sun, Nov 17, 2002 at 01:21:30PM -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de id gAI8hD311810 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:27:44 +0100 (MET) > Espen Suenson wrote: >=20 > > Bel=E9n is a turing complete superset of the programming language SME= TANA. > > Bel=E9n admits the following three commands: > >=20 > > N. Go to step X. > >=20 > > N. Swap step X with step Y. > >=20 > > N. Copy Z steps to step X. Hmm, which Z steps? That is, shouldn't this be a three argument instruction? > > Bel=E9n also sports relative addressing, that is, X and Y above may b= e e.g. > > 9, +9 or -9 (where +9 is interpreted as N + 9). That's a nice idea. > > In addition, Bel=E9n has an IO-system inspired by that of Lazy-K. >=20 > Interesting, but how does that make it any more Turing-complete than > SMETANA already is? Simple, by allowing one to use relative addressing to copy instructions, the program length becomes unlimited; I think you could implement a tape at the end of your program. At least the old argument why Smetana can't be Turing complete doesn't work any more. Smetana itself just implements a big, finite state machine and can, therefore, not be Turing-complete. Bertram --=20 `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Nov 18 19:22:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Dpb0-00056v-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:22:02 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:21:55 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Dpaa-00056f-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:21:36 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:21:28 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DpaR-00056V-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:21:28 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p16.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.16]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with SMTP id gAIHKqaY021236 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:20:53 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <000201c28f25$98372d30$1081ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: Subject: [lang] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5Blang=5D_New_programming_language:_Bel=E9n?= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 21:29:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ctb-mesg1.saix.net id gAIHKqaY021236 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Bel=E9n ? Stange name - Does it mean something ? (sounds like the name of= a Duch girl or something) O' Why until next year ? :- Kind Regards, Lennie De Villiers Email: ddevilliers@lando.co.za (Home) lennie@akura.co.za (Work) Web: www.lando.co.za/Lennie My CV: www.lando.co.za/Lennie/CV.htm ----- Original Message ----- Bel=E9n is a turing complete superset of the programming language SMETANA. Bel=E9n admits the following three commands: N. Go to step X. N. Swap step X with step Y. N. Copy Z steps to step X. Bel=E9n also sports relative addressing, that is, X and Y above may be e.= g. 9, +9 or -9 (where +9 is interpreted as N + 9). In addition, Bel=E9n has an IO-system inspired by that of Lazy-K. The main attraction of Bel=E9n is that it has no notion of data. I might finish the interpreter upon request, but not until next year. Best regards Espen -- A PROCESSION of the damned. By the damned, I mean the excluded. We shall have a procession of data that Science has excluded. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Nov 18 22:33:45 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DsaK-0005gW-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:33:32 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:33:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DsZq-0005gJ-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:33:02 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:32:53 +0200 (EET) Received: from web40512.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.78.129]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18DsZf-0005g4-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:32:51 +0200 Message-ID: <20021118203217.45678.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.60.47.242] by web40512.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:32:17 GMT Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:32:17 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mathew=20Carr?= Subject: [lang] Turing-complete To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <000201c28f25$98372d30$1081ef9b@lennie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-243888721-1037651537=:44430" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mattycarr_uk@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mattycarr_uk@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --0-243888721-1037651537=:44430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit can anyone describe to me what Turingcomplete means? (and news on Trefunge - Its totally complete. All I need to do is swank it up... anyone wanna see some screenshots?) from Matty Carr. www.mattyswebring.cjb.net --------------------------------- Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs. --0-243888721-1037651537=:44430 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

can anyone describe to me what Turingcomplete means?

(and news on Trefunge - Its totally complete. All I need to do is swank it up... anyone wanna see some screenshots?)



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--0-243888721-1037651537=:44430-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 08:00:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E1R6-0006N6-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:00:36 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:00:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E1QI-0006Mq-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:59:46 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:59:38 +0200 (EET) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E1Q9-0006Mk-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:59:38 +0200 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gAJ5xY000683 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:59:35 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20021118203217.45678.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021118203217.45678.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:59:36 -0800 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >can anyone describe to me what Turingcomplete means? Someone correct me if I get this wrong. A Turing-complete computational model (programming language, computer design, etc.) is one that can perform the same class of computations that can be performed by Turing machines. A Turing machine is a kind of drastically simplified imaginary computer invented by Alan Turing. It's one of very many and structurally very diverse mathematical models different people have dreamed up to formalize the notion of algorithmic computability, all of which eventually proved to be equivalent--i.e. each of these models can simulate any other one, and thus can do anything any other can do. So all these models, as well as almost all programming languages, are Turing-complete (if, as is traditional, you ignore limitations on memory space as long as they aren't too restrictive). -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 10:06:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E3N9-0006oD-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:04:39 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:04:32 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E3Mn-0006o0-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:04:17 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:04:09 +0200 (EET) Received: from [212.250.174.249] (helo=abydos.freakymousemats.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E3Me-0006nt-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:04:08 +0200 Received: by abydos.freakymousemats.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 65AE5191C; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:03:37 +0000 (GMT) To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete From: Cal Henderson X-Sender: X-Mailer: CalMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20021119080337.65AE5191C@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:03:37 +0000 (GMT) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc : can anyone describe to me what Turingcomplete means? a fairly consisce explanation seems to be a language/machine that, given an infinate amount of time and an infinate 'store', could calculate any known mathematical problem. this usually requires some sort of looping or self modification. turing's machine used a ticker tape which moved both ways as the store, rather like bf but with no limit on array length (thus bf is sort-of turing complete?) --cal -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 10:27:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E3is-0006z5-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:27:06 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:26:59 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E3ib-0006yq-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:26:49 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:26:41 +0200 (EET) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E3iS-0006yk-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:26:40 +0200 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gAJ8Qc006304 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:26:38 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20021119080337.65AE5191C@abydos.freakymousemats.net> References: <20021119080337.65AE5191C@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:26:39 -0800 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >turing's machine used a ticker tape which moved both ways as the >store, rather like bf but with no limit on array length (thus bf >is sort-of turing complete?) That is, the array length looks more like a feature of specific implementations than like a feature of the language...and without that limit, brainfuck is turing-complete. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 10:47:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E42Z-00079A-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:47:28 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:47:21 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E42L-000792-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:47:13 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:47:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from eidolon.muppetlabs.com ([64.81.31.173]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E42C-00078w-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:47:04 +0200 Received: (from breadbox@localhost) by eidolon.muppetlabs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAJ8l2i30253; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:47:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15833.64134.280768.53632@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:47:02 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Raiter To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete In-Reply-To: <20021119080337.65AE5191C@abydos.freakymousemats.net> References: <20021119080337.65AE5191C@abydos.freakymousemats.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.68 under Emacs 20.7.1 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: breadbox@muppetlabs.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: breadbox@muppetlabs.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > : can anyone describe to me what Turingcomplete means? > > a fairly consisce explanation seems to be a language/machine that, > given an infinate amount of time and an infinate 'store', Not infinite. Arbitrarily large, yes, but not infinite. A Turing-machine program that requires a finite amount of time and store, no matter how large, can still be considered "computable". A program that requires an infinite amount of time or store cannot be. A fine yet important distinction. b -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 10:56:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E4BH-0007Ff-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:56:27 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:56:21 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E4B9-0007FS-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:56:19 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:56:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from [212.250.174.249] (helo=abydos.freakymousemats.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E4B0-0007FM-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:56:10 +0200 Received: by abydos.freakymousemats.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 0BD6124D9E; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:55:39 +0000 (GMT) To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete From: Cal Henderson X-Sender: X-Mailer: CalMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20021119085539.0BD6124D9E@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:55:39 +0000 (GMT) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc At 08:47 GMT 19.11.02, Brian Raiter wrote: : Not infinite. Arbitrarily large, yes, but not infinite. A : Turing-machine program that requires a finite amount of time and : store, no matter how large, can still be considered "computable". A : program that requires an infinite amount of time or store cannot be. : A fine yet important distinction. this list needs an FAQ :) --cal -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 11:11:55 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E4Q5-0007Nq-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:11:45 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:11:38 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E4N4-0007MV-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:08:38 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:08:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E4Mw-0007MN-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:08:30 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id gAJ95Pi6029585 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:05:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18E4Hw-0007ra-00 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:03:20 +0200 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:03:20 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Yet another Brainfuck compiler Message-ID: <20021119090320.GA30186@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20021010120111.A23420@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021010120111.A23420@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 12:01:11PM +0200, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > Then I generalized the idea a bit, because I realized what I really > needed there was dependency analysis; the current version is pretty > much completely based on this and a few rules. With proper dep. analysis, one could in theory raise arbitrarily complicated actions into C primitives when flattening loops. I'm still not quite sure how this should be done. > Feel free to toy around with it; I'll admit I only really tested it > with prime.bf where the results were very encouraging. As Christopher Daniel pointed out, prime.bf is much oriented towards theoretical programming and is very inefficient on a "brainfuck machine", where every instruction is taken to use constant time. It also benefits a lot from my optimising compiler (which, by the way, does almost exactly the same optimisations as your compiler). > You can find the beast at > http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/brainfxxx/, > bf2c.hs and bf2c. I added the source into http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/impl/compilers/ I guess the speed would be much enhanced still if the compilers used register variables instead of array entries when in a region where the moving of the pointer is not undecidable. But I haven't found the time to implement this in my compiler (which, by the way, is a lot less readable still than yours). Panu -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 11:12:03 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E4QN-0007Od-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:12:03 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:11:56 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E4QF-0007OD-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:11:55 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:11:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E4Q7-0007O7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:11:47 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id gAJ98gi6001104 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:08:42 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18E4L8-0007rr-00 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:06:38 +0200 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:06:38 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete Message-ID: <20021119090638.GB30186@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20021119085539.0BD6124D9E@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021119085539.0BD6124D9E@abydos.freakymousemats.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 08:55:39AM +0000, Cal Henderson wrote: > At 08:47 GMT 19.11.02, Brian Raiter wrote: > : Not infinite. Arbitrarily large, yes, but not infinite. A > : Turing-machine program that requires a finite amount of time and > : store, no matter how large, can still be considered "computable". A > : program that requires an infinite amount of time or store cannot be. > : A fine yet important distinction. > this list needs an FAQ :) I would very much appreciate if somebody did that, based on the list archives at http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/ or something similar. Panu -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 11:31:27 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E4j5-0007co-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:31:23 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:31:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E4iq-0007ch-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:31:09 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:31:00 +0200 (EET) Received: from [212.250.174.249] (helo=abydos.freakymousemats.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E4ih-0007cU-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:31:00 +0200 Received: by abydos.freakymousemats.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id C291934664; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:30:28 +0000 (GMT) To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete From: Cal Henderson X-Sender: X-Mailer: CalMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20021119093028.C291934664@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:30:28 +0000 (GMT) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc At 09:06 GMT 19.11.02, Panu Kalliokoski wrote: : I would very much appreciate if somebody did that, based on the list : archives at http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/ or something similar. ok, http://www.iamcal.com/software/eso/ can somebody give a definative definition of turing completeness and the turing machine. i'm only vaguely sure about whet i know. also, who ever is responsible for the mailing lists at present (panu?), what lists are there, what are the topics and which copy to which? on top of that, any info to be added would be lovely ta, --cal -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 14:42:42 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E7i2-0008p4-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:42:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:42:23 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E7hX-0008oi-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:41:59 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:41:51 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E7hO-0008oc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:41:50 +0200 Received: from irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.66]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAJCfms3022637 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:41:48 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.2) id gAJCfl926277 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:41:47 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:41:47 +0100 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Yet another Brainfuck compiler Message-ID: <20021119134147.A25590@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20021010120111.A23420@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> <20021119090320.GA30186@ling.helsinki.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <20021119090320.GA30186@ling.helsinki.fi>; from Panu Kalliokoski on Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 11:03:20AM +0200 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 12:01:11PM +0200, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > Then I generalized the idea a bit, because I realized what I really > > needed there was dependency analysis; the current version is pretty > > much completely based on this and a few rules. > > With proper dep. analysis, one could in theory raise arbitrarily The problem with my (and I think yours, too, but I didn't dig very deep into your code) compiler is that it assumes that a single memory cell serves exactly one purpose and does not try to optimize anything if it's modified more than once. Which is why [-]>[-]<+[>+++++<-]>[<++++++>-] compiles to data[p] = 1; data[p+1] = (5 * data[p]); data[p] = (6 * data[p+1]); data[p+1] = 0; instead of data[p]=30; data[p+1]=0; The next step would be not to have a simple one-dimensional array of values but a two-dimensional one with the second dimension being the time; this is conceptionally intriguing because values are only assigned once and read afterwards ... that is, they're basically constants, and all you have to do is data flow analysis. But I can't think of an efficient data structure for this (which would probably involve an array of values with associated life spans). Actually I'm not even sure about what operations on that data structure are needed to make this work. Is that what you meant by dependency analysis? > complicated actions into C primitives when flattening loops. I'm still > not quite sure how this should be done. Neither am I; see above. > a lot from my optimising compiler (which, by the way, does almost exactly > the same optimisations as your compiler). Thanks for the hint; now I actually understand your compiler a bit; I think I had a short look at it before but gave up very soon, without finding out what kind of optimizations it does. > I added the source into > http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/impl/compilers/ Thank you. > I guess the speed would be much enhanced still if the compilers used > register variables instead of array entries when in a region where > the moving of the pointer is not undecidable. Maybe. Or maybe not, it really depends on how good the compiler is. It's definitely worth a try, especially as it leads into the general direction of introducing values with life spans. regards, Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 14:48:40 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E7ny-0008tX-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:48:38 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:48:32 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E7nq-0008tA-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:48:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:48:22 +0200 (EET) Received: from eidolon.muppetlabs.com ([64.81.31.173]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E7nh-0008t4-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:48:21 +0200 Received: (from breadbox@localhost) by eidolon.muppetlabs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAJCmKT00720; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:48:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:48:20 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Raiter To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete In-Reply-To: <20021119093028.C291934664@abydos.freakymousemats.net> References: <20021119093028.C291934664@abydos.freakymousemats.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.68 under Emacs 20.7.1 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: breadbox@muppetlabs.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: breadbox@muppetlabs.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > : I would very much appreciate if somebody did that, based on the list > : archives at http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/ or something similar. > > ok, http://www.iamcal.com/software/eso/ > > can somebody give a definative definition of turing completeness and > the turing machine. i'm only vaguely sure about whet i know. A given programming language is said to be Turing-complete if it can be shown that it is computationally equivalent to a Turing machine. That is, any problem that can be solved on a Turing machine using a finite amount of resources (i.e., time and tape), can be solved with the other language using a finite amount of its resources. Typically, one proves a given language is Turing-complete by providing a recipe for translating any given Turing machine program into an equivalent program in the language in question. Alternately, one can provide a translation scheme from another language, one that has already been proven to be Turing-complete. Nearly every existing computer language is Turing-complete. About the only computer languages that aren't Turing-complete are a handful of special languages that are capable of LESS than a Turing machine -- usually because some limitation is "hard-wired" into the language's structure or definition. (For example, Hofstadter's designed a language called BlooP so that it was impossible for it to have a iteration structure with an arbitrarily high upper bound.) Because of this fact, the exact definition of a Turing machine isn't particularly important, and in fact any given CS instructor (or textbook) is going to provide a slightly different version of a Turing machine. Basically, a Turing machine is an abstract model for a programmable machine, something that nowadays we would think of as a programming language. It was invented by Alan Turing as a theoretical object which he essentially used to give a concrete basis for proving theorems about algorithms, in the days before electronic computers. Here's my general, inclusive description of the Turing machine: The Turing machine is usually presented as a read-write head over an arbitrarily long (though finite) length of tape. At each position on the tape is recorded a symbol which the head can read and/or overwrite with a new symbol. The machine's programming is mainly determined by a set of states. At each tick of the Turning machine's clock, the Turing machine reads the symbol recorded at its current position on the tape, writes a new symbol at that position (or possibly retains the existing symbol), moves the read-write head one position to the left or right (or perhaps remains at the current location), and determines the new state to be in at the start of the next tick (again, possibly the same as the current one). One state is specially marked as the initial state; the machine begins a run in that state. Any number of states may also be marked as final states; the machine ends its run upon reaching one of those states. b -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 15:13:59 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E8CR-00095E-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:13:55 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:13:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E8CD-00094y-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:13:41 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:13:33 +0200 (EET) Received: from [212.250.174.249] (helo=abydos.freakymousemats.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E8C4-00094l-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:13:32 +0200 Received: by abydos.freakymousemats.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 3C99A32764; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:13:01 +0000 (GMT) To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete From: Cal Henderson X-Sender: X-Mailer: CalMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20021119131301.3C99A32764@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:13:01 +0000 (GMT) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc At 12:48 GMT 19.11.02, Brian Raiter wrote: : A given programming language is said to be Turing-complete if it can [snip] added: http://www.iamcal.com/software/eso/ does anyone have anything to add to that or disagree with any part of it? --cal -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 15:49:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E8kP-0009OD-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:49:01 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:48:54 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E8k2-0009Ne-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:48:38 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:48:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E8ju-0009NY-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:48:30 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id gAJDjPi6013670 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:45:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18E8eu-0007zC-00 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:43:20 +0200 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:43:20 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete Message-ID: <20021119134320.GB30634@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20021119131301.3C99A32764@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021119131301.3C99A32764@abydos.freakymousemats.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 01:13:01PM +0000, Cal Henderson wrote: > : A given programming language is said to be Turing-complete if it can > added: http://www.iamcal.com/software/eso/ > does anyone have anything to add to that or disagree with any part > of it? I added the text, as I think it is a fine definition, to wiki at http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TuringComplete I also made some additional remarks, which you'll probably want to propagate to your version. -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 15:53:44 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E8oy-0009TY-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:53:44 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:53:37 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E8oq-0009TQ-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:53:36 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:53:28 +0200 (EET) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18E8oh-0009TK-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:53:27 +0200 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gAJDrP014671 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 05:53:25 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> References: <20021119093028.C291934664@abydos.freakymousemats.net> <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 05:53:27 -0800 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >A given programming language is said to be Turing-complete if it can >be shown that it is computationally equivalent to a Turing machine. >That is, any problem that can be solved on a Turing machine using a >finite amount of resources (i.e., time and tape), can be solved with >the other language using a finite amount of its resources. ...and vice versa. But nobody bothers to prove that part, because people have tried without success to design a language of which it was NOT true. >Typically, one proves a given language is Turing-complete by providing >a recipe for translating any given Turing machine program into an >equivalent program in the language in question. Alternately, one can >provide a translation scheme from another language, one that has >already been proven to be Turing-complete. Writing an interpreter for a known Turing-complete language in language X is a popular way to do the translation. >The Turing machine is usually presented as a read-write head over an >arbitrarily long (though finite) length of tape. This is often described as adding cells to the ends of the tape as needed, so it's of finite length at any given time. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 17:32:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EAMp-000A3d-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:32:48 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:32:41 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EAMW-000A3M-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:32:28 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:32:20 +0200 (EET) Received: from msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk ([212.67.96.148] ident=mirapoint) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EAMN-000A3D-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:32:19 +0200 Received: from hedwig (213-78-107-49.friaco.onetel.net.uk [213.78.107.49] (may be forged)) by msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AND94145; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:32:00 GMT From: "Matthew Westcott" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:31:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete Message-ID: <3DDA5964.28396.48B43538@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: matthew@west.co.tt Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: matthew@west.co.tt Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On 19 Nov 2002, at 5:53, Daniel. wrote: > >A given programming language is said to be Turing-complete if it can > >be shown that it is computationally equivalent to a Turing machine. > >That is, any problem that can be solved on a Turing machine using a > >finite amount of resources (i.e., time and tape), can be solved with > >the other language using a finite amount of its resources. > > ...and vice versa. But nobody bothers to prove that part, because > people have tried without success to design a language of which it > was NOT true. Hmm... Surely you could write something along the lines of: + : Increment the integer at the current position - : Decrement the integer at the current position < : Move left one cell > : Move right one cell [ : Skip ahead to the corresponding ] if the current integer is zero ] : Skip back to the corresponding [ if the current integer is nonzero * : Increment the current integer if, and only if, the Continuum Hypothesis is true Implementing this language is, of course, left as an exercise to the reader. - Matthew -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 19 18:20:48 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EB7B-000AD0-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:20:41 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:20:35 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EB6o-000ACs-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:20:18 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:20:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EB6f-000ACm-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:20:09 +0200 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gAJGK7021013 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:20:07 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3DDA5964.28396.48B43538@localhost> References: <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> <3DDA5964.28396.48B43538@localhost> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:20:10 -0800 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >* : Increment the current integer if, and only if, the Continuum >Hypothesis is true Though I think this particular instance is somewhat ill-defined (we already know the Continuum Hypothesis is not a theorem, and in what other senses a statement of mathematics can be "true" is an open question of metaphysics), I see your point. I'm wondering whether the problem has to do with the word "language" but I'm too tired to think it out right now. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Nov 20 14:55:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EUNs-000D5A-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:55:12 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:55:06 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EUN2-000D4f-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:54:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:54:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EUMt-000D4Y-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:54:11 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id gAKCsAi6004894; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:54:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18EUHq-0008Gl-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:48:58 +0200 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:48:58 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: Matthew Westcott Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete Message-ID: <20021120124858.GC31707@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Matthew Westcott , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> <3DDA5964.28396.48B43538@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DDA5964.28396.48B43538@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 03:31:48PM -0000, Matthew Westcott wrote: > > >A given programming language is said to be Turing-complete if it can > > >be shown that it is computationally equivalent to a Turing machine. > > >That is, any problem that can be solved on a Turing machine using a > > >finite amount of resources (i.e., time and tape), can be solved with > > >the other language using a finite amount of its resources. > > ...and vice versa. But nobody bothers to prove that part, because > > people have tried without success to design a language of which it > > was NOT true. > Hmm... Surely you could write something along the lines of: [...] > * : Increment the current integer if, and only if, the Continuum > Hypothesis is true Two notes: 1) the continuum hypothesis is proven to be dependent, in the set-theoretical formulation of the foundations of mathematics, on a certain controversial axiom (the name of which now escapes me -- "selection axiom"?) 2) I consired it to be a part of language's "design" (not only implementation) to define relatively precisely what each language construct is supposed to do. The truth of continuum hypothesis is only well-defined in relation to some system of arithmetic. 3) (great counting, eh?) It's even harder to prove that the continuum hypothesis is not provable true or false by _any_ Turing machine. 4) Even though there are problems that are undecidable, making some operation dependent on the decision of such a problem just makes all constructs based on that operation undecidable, thus resulting in no greater expressive power than Turing machines. (I wouldn't bet my head on this last one.) -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Nov 20 16:04:02 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EVSC-000DSj-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:03:44 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:03:37 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EVRo-000DSG-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:03:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:03:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from 93.208-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be ([194.78.208.93] helo=decis.be) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EVRf-000DS8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:03:11 +0200 Received: from decis.be ([192.168.0.20]) by decis.be ([194.78.208.93]) with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v6.5.0.R) for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:01:32 +0100 Message-ID: <3DDB979F.89EE56DD@decis.be> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:09:35 +0100 From: Frederic van der Plancke Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete References: <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> <3DDA5964.28396.48B43538@localhost> <20021120124858.GC31707@ling.helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-Sender: fplancke@decis.be X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 03:31:48PM -0000, Matthew Westcott wrote: > > > >A given programming language is said to be Turing-complete if it can > > > >be shown that it is computationally equivalent to a Turing machine. > > > >That is, any problem that can be solved on a Turing machine using a > > > >finite amount of resources (i.e., time and tape), can be solved with > > > >the other language using a finite amount of its resources. > > > ...and vice versa. But nobody bothers to prove that part, because > > > people have tried without success to design a language of which it > > > was NOT true. > > Hmm... Surely you could write something along the lines of: > [...] > > * : Increment the current integer if, and only if, the Continuum > > Hypothesis is true > > Two notes: > > 1) the continuum hypothesis is proven to be dependent, in the > set-theoretical formulation of the foundations of mathematics, on > a certain controversial axiom (the name of which now escapes me -- > "selection axiom"?) You probably mean the axiom of choice (AC). Actually, if I remember correctly, it is not. What is proven is that both the continuum hypothesis (CH) *and* its negation are compatible (when taken separately !) with [standard set theory (ZF) + the axiom of choice]... provided set theory itself is self-consistent (that is, does not produce contradictions). Hence, whether CH holds or not is up to an arbitrary choice of yours... (Unless someone comes up with empirical evidence to prefer one choice over the other, but this seems utterly unlikely to me.) From http://www.ii.com/math/ch/ : <<< Despite nearly 120 years of investigation, CH is still debated and continues to motivate a lot of mathematics, especially in set theory and logic. Like the Axiom of Choice (AC), Gödel showed that CH is consistent with standard set theory and Cohen showed that ~CH is consistent with standard set theory (and thus CH is independent of standard set theory). But, unlike AC, CH has not been adopted as an axiom of set theory. Instead, mathematicians either live with this incompleteness in set theory or try to find more intuitive axioms that will help to decide CH. >>> (BTW, a small minority of mathematicians still refuse to adopt AC as an axiom.) > > 2) I consired it to be a part of language's "design" (not only > implementation) to define relatively precisely what each language > construct is supposed to do. The truth of continuum hypothesis is only > well-defined in relation to some system of arithmetic. ...and not always, even then... Frédéric vdP -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Nov 20 18:44:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EXy0-000EBh-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:44:44 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:44:37 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EXxb-000EBa-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:44:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:44:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from oe36.law7.hotmail.com ([216.33.236.31] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EXxT-000EBT-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:44:11 +0200 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:43:38 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [62.127.47.254] From: "Martin Sandin" To: References: <200210140009.ACA95284@express.cites.uiuc.edu> <20021101135238.GC14813@ling.helsinki.fi> Subject: [lang] Re: Amalthea - an Io interpreter Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:44:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Nov 2002 16:43:38.0871 (UTC) FILETIME=[FA104070:01C290B3] X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: msandin@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: msandin@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Sorry 'bout the substantial delay in replying, have had ISP problems = lately, but you probably all know how that is =3D) > > Amalthea is found at: > > http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/~d97masa/files/amalthea084.zip > This is quite cool stuff. =20 Thanks =3D-) > From a quick look at the sources, you seem to emulate continuations > by returning tuples instead of using the native tail-calls of Ocaml. > Some reason for that? >=20 Could you elaborate a bit on that? I'm a beginner to Ocaml (have more = experience with Haskell though) so any stylistic suggestions are most = welcome :-) The continuations are represented as (ast * env) because, = well, that's what they are, I can deconstruct them for error messages = and the like. Should I do otherwise for some reason? Memory efficiency? = Speed? (Neither have been great concerns.) Or are you only talking about = the native function interface (i.e. the functions residing in = Io_native). I shall bring forth another version in not too distant a future I hope. = I'm adding mutable module variables, it kills purity but it makes = playing with microthreads and such, well, easier. Monads in Io would at = the very least be syntactically awkward. - M -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 21 02:29:49 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EfDw-000F4Y-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:40 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:33 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EfDX-000F4H-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:15 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:07 +0200 (EET) Received: from arkanoid.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.177] helo=asteroids.cybercomm.nl) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EfDO-000F3x-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:07 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 25121 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 00:28:35 -0000 Received: from 12.16.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.16.12]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 21 Nov 2002 00:28:35 -0000 Message-ID: <3DDC2817.4060507@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:25:59 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete References: <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> <3DDA5964.28396.48B43538@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Matthew Westcott wrote: >>>A given programming language is said to be Turing-complete if it can >>>be shown that it is computationally equivalent to a Turing machine. >>>That is, any problem that can be solved on a Turing machine using a >>>finite amount of resources (i.e., time and tape), can be solved with >>>the other language using a finite amount of its resources. >>> >>...and vice versa. But nobody bothers to prove that part, because >>people have tried without success to design a language of which it >>was NOT true. >> > > Hmm... Surely you could write something along the lines of: > > + : Increment the integer at the current position > - : Decrement the integer at the current position > < : Move left one cell > > : Move right one cell > [ : Skip ahead to the corresponding ] if the current integer is zero > ] : Skip back to the corresponding [ if the current integer is nonzero > * : Increment the current integer if, and only if, the Continuum > Hypothesis is true So the question, as I understand, is if languages strictly superior to Turing machines (capable of calculating everything a Turing machine can, a few few things it can't), can it still be said to be Turing-complete? This problem is unlikely to occur in practice, since all languages run on a computer and computers of today are not capable of surpassing Turing machines. Still, theoretic discussion is also interesting, and who know, maybe someday a machine will be invented that can hardwarily solve the halting problem... -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 21 02:29:49 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EfDw-000F4c-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:40 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:33 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EfDU-000F43-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:12 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from asteroids.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.176]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EfDL-000F3v-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:03 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 32004 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 00:28:31 -0000 Received: from 12.16.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.16.12]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 21 Nov 2002 00:28:31 -0000 Message-ID: <3DDC249E.6050705@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:11:10 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete References: <20021119093028.C291934664@abydos.freakymousemats.net> <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Daniel. wrote: > > Typically, one proves a given language is Turing-complete by providing > > a recipe for translating any given Turing machine program into an > > equivalent program in the language in question. Alternately, one can > > provide a translation scheme from another language, one that has > > already been proven to be Turing-complete. > > Writing an interpreter for a known Turing-complete language in language > X is a popular way to do the translation. This doesn't necessarily work. Though languages where this does not hold are rare, probably only ocurring when someone explicitly decides to provide a counterexample, it is still possible for a interpreter of, say, Brainfuck to exist in language X without language X being Turing-complete, if langage X is not capable of hard-coding constants. The trivial pathological example would be a language which has only one valid input file (much like ACCIDENT, but more boring), which compiles into the program "intepret a Brainfuck program that is given on standard input". -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 21 02:29:49 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EfDw-000F4W-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:40 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:33 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EfDW-000F4A-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:14 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:06 +0200 (EET) Received: from arkanoid.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.177] helo=asteroids.cybercomm.nl) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EfDN-000F3w-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:29:06 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 25100 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 00:28:33 -0000 Received: from 12.16.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.16.12]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 21 Nov 2002 00:28:33 -0000 Message-ID: <3DDC2706.4070001@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:21:26 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete References: <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> <3DDA5964.28396.48B43538@localhost> <20021120124858.GC31707@ling.helsinki.fi> <3DDB979F.89EE56DD@decis.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Frederic van der Plancke wrote: > Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > >>On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 03:31:48PM -0000, Matthew Westcott wrote: >> >>>>>A given programming language is said to be Turing-complete if it can >>>>>be shown that it is computationally equivalent to a Turing machine. >>>>>That is, any problem that can be solved on a Turing machine using a >>>>>finite amount of resources (i.e., time and tape), can be solved with >>>>>the other language using a finite amount of its resources. >>>>> >>>>...and vice versa. But nobody bothers to prove that part, because >>>>people have tried without success to design a language of which it >>>>was NOT true. >>>> >>>Hmm... Surely you could write something along the lines of: >>> >>[...] >> >>>* : Increment the current integer if, and only if, the Continuum >>>Hypothesis is true >>> >>Two notes: >> >>1) the continuum hypothesis is proven to be dependent, in the >>set-theoretical formulation of the foundations of mathematics, on >>a certain controversial axiom (the name of which now escapes me -- >>"selection axiom"?) >> > > You probably mean the axiom of choice (AC). > Actually, if I remember correctly, it is not. What is proven is that both the continuum hypothesis (CH) *and* its negation are compatible (when taken separately !) with [standard set theory (ZF) + the axiom of choice]... provided set theory itself is self-consistent (that is, does not produce contradictions). > > Hence, whether CH holds or not is up to an arbitrary choice of > yours... (Unless someone comes up with empirical evidence to > prefer one choice over the other, but this seems utterly unlikely > to me.) I prefer to assume it true, because due to the brain-damaged definition of aleph-one and all higher infinities, this makes the notation easier :) Current definition of aleph-one: "aleph-one is the smallest cardinal strictly larger than aleph-zero". If the continuum hypothesis is false then we cannot even guarantee the existance of such an aleph-one, and if it exists, there will be no telling what it is. In fact, I tend to believe it wouldn't exists, because in my personal ungrounded view, if the continuum hypothesis is false, then the cardinals will probably be dense. Logical definition of aleph-one, which I would have used if I could redefine it: "aleph-one is two to the power of aleph-zero". This is well-defined independant of the continuum hypothesis, and if it turns out to be false, then we can give the rest names like aleph-one-half. But on a programming list, I doubt anybody really cares... -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 21 08:44:02 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18El44-000Fhf-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:43:52 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:43:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18El3Z-000FhV-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:43:21 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:43:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18El3Q-000FhN-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:43:13 +0200 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gAL6h8I16776 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:43:09 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3DDC249E.6050705@dds.nl> References: <20021119093028.C291934664@abydos.freakymousemats.net> <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> <3DDC249E.6050705@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:43:07 -0800 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >This doesn't necessarily work. Though languages where this does not hold >are rare, probably only ocurring when someone explicitly decides to provide >a counterexample, it is still possible for a interpreter of, say, Brainfuck >to exist in language X without language X being Turing-complete, if langage >X is not capable of hard-coding constants. The trivial pathological example >would be a language which has only one valid input file (much like ACCIDENT, >but more boring), which compiles into the program "intepret a Brainfuck >program that is given on standard input". I didn't mean to say that writing an interpreter was a universally valid method. One pitfall I was seeing is that many languages are not very self-contained. If you write an interpreter in C which uses UNIX system calls to pass things to a Scheme interpreter, the language you've just proved Turing-completeness of is one consisting of C, plus your flavor of UNIX, plus your flavor of Scheme... That being said, I don't see why you would say your particular example wasn't Turing-complete. What would normally be source code and what would normally be input data both come in via standard input, but that's the case for a universal Turing machine as well. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 21 08:46:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18El6j-000FlF-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:46:37 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:46:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18El6b-000Fkz-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:46:29 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:46:20 +0200 (EET) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18El6S-000Fkr-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:46:20 +0200 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gAL6kII16963 for ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:46:18 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3DDC2817.4060507@dds.nl> References: <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> <3DDA5964.28396.48B43538@localhost> <3DDC2817.4060507@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:46:17 -0800 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >So the question, as I understand, is if languages strictly superior to >Turing machines (capable of calculating everything a Turing machine can, >a few few things it can't), can it still be said to be Turing-complete? Don't think so, technically. I think "complete" implies equivalence. For instance, a problem proved at least as hard as any in NP, but not proved to be in NP, has been proved to be NP-hard, not NP-complete, as I recall. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 21 10:19:28 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EmYV-000G5x-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:19:23 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:19:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EmYE-000G5n-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:19:06 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:18:58 +0200 (EET) Received: from lutra.sztaki.hu ([193.225.86.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EmY5-000G5h-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:18:57 +0200 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.sztaki.hu by sztaki.hu (PMDF V6.1-1 #30524) id <0H5X0080133HJ8@sztaki.hu> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:18:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from sztaki.hu by sztaki.hu (PMDF V6.1-1 #30524) id <0H5X0080133HJ7@sztaki.hu> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:18:53 +0100 (MET) Resent-date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:18:53 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:18:52 +0100 From: Pal Benko Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete In-reply-to: <3DDC2706.4070001@dds.nl> Sender: benko@sztaki.hu To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <3405-Thu21Nov2002091852+0100-benko@lutra.sztaki.hu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: emacs 20.6.1 (via feedmail 8 I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-Id: Resent-From: benko@sztaki.hu Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:18:57 +0200 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benko@sztaki.hu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benko@sztaki.hu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc From benko Thu Nov 21 09: 18 MET 2002 References: <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> <3DDA5964.28396.48B43538@localhost> <20021120124858.GC31707@ling.helsinki.fi> <3DDB979F.89EE56DD@decis.be> <3DDC2706.4070001@dds.nl> > I prefer to assume it [CH] true, because due to the brain-damaged > definition of aleph-one and all higher infinities, this makes the > notation easier :) > Current definition of aleph-one: "aleph-one is the smallest cardinal > strictly larger than aleph-zero". If the continuum hypothesis is > false then we cannot even guarantee the existance of such an > aleph-one, Yes, we can. Perhaps you mix it with the fact that if the axiom of choice is not true, then cardinalities are not strictly ordered (what's more, AC is equivalent to cardinalities being strictly ordered). > Logical definition of aleph-one, which I would have used if I could > redefine it: "aleph-one is two to the power of aleph-zero". This is > well-defined independant of the continuum hypothesis, Besides the aleph-hierarchy there is the beth-hierarchy: beth-zero equals aleph-zero, beth-one is two to the power of beth-zero, and so on. (Yes, there is also a gimel-operation; I have never heard of daleth, etc....) > and if it [CH] turns out to be false, then we can give the rest > names like aleph-one-half. It is (sort of) consistent that beth-one is so big in terms of alephs that it equals aleph-(beth-one), so this naming scheme is not enough... p -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 21 14:27:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EqQn-000H4S-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:27:41 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:27:34 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EqQF-000H46-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:27:07 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:26:59 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com ([192.108.102.143]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EqQ6-000H40-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:26:58 +0200 Received: from myrealbox.com amirlb@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.114.208.189] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.16 $ on Novell NetWare; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 05:26:55 -0700 Message-ID: <3DDCD271.7050707@myrealbox.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:32:49 +0200 From: Amir Livne User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: he, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete References: <3405-Thu21Nov2002091852+0100-benko@lutra.sztaki.hu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Pal Benko wrote: >>I prefer to assume it [CH] true, because due to the brain-damaged >>definition of aleph-one and all higher infinities, this makes the >>notation easier :) > >>Current definition of aleph-one: "aleph-one is the smallest cardinal >>strictly larger than aleph-zero". If the continuum hypothesis is >>false then we cannot even guarantee the existance of such an >>aleph-one, > > Yes, we can. Perhaps you mix it with the fact that if the axiom of > choice is not true, then cardinalities are not strictly ordered > (what's more, AC is equivalent to cardinalities being strictly > ordered). In addition, the difinition that Milo cited isn't the only definition of Aleph-one. For example, in the Set Theory course that I was in, the definition was "the power of the set of the countable ordinals". The Alephs were inductively defined this way. Then, using AC, we proved that Aleph-one was the first cardinal strictly larger than Alpeh-zero. I think it is far more natural then declaring the Alephs as powers of each other. If you take the definition of the Beths instead of the definition of the Alephs, you have to use CH as an axiom to be able to say anything about infinite cardinals. -- Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! lightstep (Amir Livne) WARNING TO SPAMMERS: SEE http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 21 18:14:42 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18EtyE-000Hwq-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:14:26 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:14:20 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Etxm-000HwI-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:13:58 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:13:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from hugin.diku.dk ([130.225.96.144] ident=qmailr) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Etxe-000HwC-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:13:50 +0200 Received: (qmail 6066 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 16:13:47 -0000 Received: from ask.diku.dk (expen@130.225.96.225) by hugin.diku.dk with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 16:13:47 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:13:46 +0100 (MET) From: Espen Suenson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5Blang=5D_New_programming_language:_Bel=E9n?= In-Reply-To: <000201c28f25$98372d30$1081ef9b@lennie> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: expen@diku.dk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: expen@diku.dk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc D De Villiers wrote: > Bel=E9n ? Stange name - Does it mean something ? It is a Spanish girls name. > O' Why until next year ? :- Because (surprise!) I am quite busy ;) Espen --=20 A PROCESSION of the damned. By the damned, I mean the excluded. We shall have a procession of data that Science has excluded. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 21 18:23:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Eu6c-000I1P-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:23:06 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:22:59 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Eu6R-000I1I-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:22:55 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:22:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from hugin.diku.dk ([130.225.96.144] ident=qmailr) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Eu6J-000I1C-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:22:47 +0200 Received: (qmail 7338 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2002 16:22:46 -0000 Received: from ask.diku.dk (expen@130.225.96.225) by hugin.diku.dk with QMQP; 21 Nov 2002 16:22:46 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:22:46 +0100 (MET) From: Espen Suenson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5Blang=5D_Re:_New_programming_language:_Bel=E9n?= In-Reply-To: <20021118094312.A4425@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: expen@diku.dk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: expen@diku.dk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > > > > > > N. Swap step X with step Y. > > > > > > N. Copy Z steps to step X. > > Hmm, which Z steps? That is, shouldn't this be a three argument > instruction? Yes, of course. N. Copy Z steps from step X to step Y. Thank you for pointing out this mistake. How embarassing. But, on the other hand, what is a language specification without errors? :) > > > Bel=E9n also sports relative addressing, that is, X and Y above may b= e e.g. > > > 9, +9 or -9 (where +9 is interpreted as N + 9). > > That's a nice idea. And necessary in some form to obtain infinite memory. I like this one better than that of Moldau. > > > In addition, Bel=E9n has an IO-system inspired by that of Lazy-K. > > > > Interesting, but how does that make it any more Turing-complete than > > SMETANA already is? > > Simple, by allowing one to use relative addressing to copy instructions, > the program length becomes unlimited; I think you could implement > a tape at the end of your program. At least the old argument > why Smetana can't be Turing complete doesn't work any more. I think I have proven Bel=E9n Turing complete. It is actually quite easy to derive from a 2-counter finite automaton. That is, easy once you figure out how to program the counter; as you can imagine, Bel=E9n is somewhat tedious to program in. > Smetana itself just implements a big, finite state machine and can, > therefore, not be Turing-complete. Exactly. Espen --=20 A PROCESSION of the damned. By the damned, I mean the excluded. We shall have a procession of data that Science has excluded. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Nov 21 19:25:26 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Ev4q-000IJp-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:25:21 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:25:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Ev4R-000IJH-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:24:55 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:24:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Ev4H-000IJB-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:24:46 +0200 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gALHOgI14135 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:24:43 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3DDA5964.28396.48B43538@localhost> References: <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> <3DDA5964.28396.48B43538@localhost> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:24:42 -0800 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > > ...and vice versa. But nobody bothers to prove that part, because >> people have tried without success to design a language of which it > > was NOT true. > >* : Increment the current integer if, and only if, the Continuum >Hypothesis is true > >Implementing this language is, of course, left as an exercise to the >reader. Hmm. If I cared about saving my original statement I might ask what constitutes a "design", and suggest that it must be stated in terms of primitive operations that we have some idea how to do, and otherwise it should be called a "description" or something instead. I think a fair comparison would be designing a car and including a black box labeled "anti-gravity unit"; would we call that "designing an anti-gravity car"? -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Nov 22 17:01:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18FFIj-000LGw-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:01:01 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:00:54 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18FFI0-000LGo-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:00:16 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:00:08 +0200 (EET) Received: from 80-25-141-62.uc.nombres.ttd.es ([80.25.141.62] helo=gnues.es.gnu.org ident=postfix) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18FFHr-000LGh-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:00:07 +0200 Received: by gnues.es.gnu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0B1D214011; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:44:07 +0100 (CET) From: "Jose E. Marchesi" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-reply-to: (message from Espen Suenson on Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:13:46 +0100 (MET)) Subject: [lang] Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5Blang=5D_New_programming_language:_Bel=E9n?= References: Message-Id: <20021122144407.0B1D214011@gnues.es.gnu.org> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:44:07 +0100 (CET) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jemarch@es.gnu.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jemarch@es.gnu.org Precedence: bulk X-list: misc D De Villiers wrote: > Belén ? Stange name - Does it mean something ? It is a Spanish girls name. The correct one is Belen (without the tilde). -- Jose E. Marchesi GNU Spain http://es.gnu.org GNUs Not Unix! http://www.gnu.org -- "And if cynics ridicule freedom, ridicule community... if 'hard nosed realists' say that profit is the only ideal...just ignore them, and use copyleft all the same." -- RMS --- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Nov 25 07:03:43 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GBNt-00028P-00; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:02:13 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:02:06 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GBN9-00028I-00; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:01:27 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:01:19 +0200 (EET) Received: from iceland.freeshell.org ([207.202.214.138] helo=sdf.lonestar.org ident=root) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GBN0-00028C-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:01:18 +0200 Received: (from mbays@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6+3.4W/8.11.6) id gAP519U18027; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 05:01:09 GMT Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 05:01:09 +0000 (UTC) From: Martin Bays To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] ZFunge98ish 0.6.1b Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mbays@freeshell.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mbays@freeshell.org Precedence: bulk X-list: misc So, I found this list from the old Funge site, and I've no idea if anyone still reads it. If I'm not just talking to myself, then - Hello! I've written an extension to Francis Irving's ZBefunge, in an attempt to get it working as a Concurrent Trefunge-98. It's *almost* compliant, the main problem being that it works in a set limited space, with toroidal wrapping. It's written in Inform for the Z-Machine, which is really designed for running Interactive Fiction, but there you go. This means it has very limited memory, but is highly portable. You can get an interpreter from http://www.inform-fiction.org/ And ZFunge itself can be downloaded from http://mbays.freeshell.org/marge/margemain.pl?pageroot=zfunge I'd love to hear what anyone thinks. Martin -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 26 02:57:43 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GU2c-0005cv-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:57:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:57:23 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GU1u-0005cT-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:56:46 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:56:39 +0200 (EET) Received: from asteroids.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.176]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GU1m-0005cF-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:56:38 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 23998 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 00:56:06 -0000 Received: from 187.16.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.16.187]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 26 Nov 2002 00:56:06 -0000 Message-ID: <3DE2C4D3.60103@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:48:19 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete References: <3405-Thu21Nov2002091852+0100-benko@lutra.sztaki.hu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Pal Benko wrote: >>I prefer to assume it [CH] true, because due to the brain-damaged >>definition of aleph-one and all higher infinities, this makes the >>notation easier :) > >>Current definition of aleph-one: "aleph-one is the smallest cardinal >>strictly larger than aleph-zero". If the continuum hypothesis is >>false then we cannot even guarantee the existance of such an >>aleph-one, > > Yes, we can. Perhaps you mix it with the fact that if the axiom of > choice is not true, then cardinalities are not strictly ordered > (what's more, AC is equivalent to cardinalities being strictly > ordered). Okay, let's see if we're talking about the same axiom here. What I seem to remember the continuum hypothesis to be is as follows: "There are no cardinals lying strictly between that of the natural numbers and that of the real numbers." To avoid confusion, I formulated it in such a way as to not mention alephs at all. >>Logical definition of aleph-one, which I would have used if I could >>redefine it: "aleph-one is two to the power of aleph-zero". This is >>well-defined independant of the continuum hypothesis, > > Besides the aleph-hierarchy there is the beth-hierarchy: beth-zero > equals aleph-zero, beth-one is two to the power of beth-zero, and so > on. (Yes, there is also a gimel-operation; I have never heard of > daleth, etc....) Strange, the alephs have popped up in my lesson from time to time but I've never seen or heard anyone mention anything about a beth. When I mention what I posted first to my teachers, they say something along the lines of "well, that's how it's defined and you can't change it now, logical or not", without mentioning anything about any beth. >>and if it [CH] turns out to be false, then we can give the rest >>names like aleph-one-half. > > It is (sort of) consistent that beth-one is so big in terms of alephs > that it equals aleph-(beth-one), so this naming scheme is not > enough... It is also perfectly consistent that there exist cardinals for which we will never be able to give any name. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 26 02:57:43 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GU2c-0005cs-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:57:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:57:23 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GU1w-0005ca-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:56:49 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:56:41 +0200 (EET) Received: from asteroids.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.176]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GU1o-0005cG-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:56:40 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 24037 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 00:56:09 -0000 Received: from 187.16.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.16.187]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 26 Nov 2002 00:56:09 -0000 Message-ID: <3DE2C60C.7070001@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:53:32 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete References: <3405-Thu21Nov2002091852+0100-benko@lutra.sztaki.hu> <3DDCD271.7050707@myrealbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Amir Livne wrote: > Pal Benko wrote: > >>> I prefer to assume it [CH] true, because due to the brain-damaged >>> definition of aleph-one and all higher infinities, this makes the >>> notation easier :) >> >>> Current definition of aleph-one: "aleph-one is the smallest cardinal >>> strictly larger than aleph-zero". If the continuum hypothesis is >>> false then we cannot even guarantee the existance of such an >>> aleph-one, >> >> Yes, we can. Perhaps you mix it with the fact that if the axiom of >> choice is not true, then cardinalities are not strictly ordered >> (what's more, AC is equivalent to cardinalities being strictly >> ordered). > > In addition, the difinition that Milo cited isn't the only definition of > Aleph-one. For example, in the Set Theory course that I was in, the > definition was "the power of the set of the countable ordinals". The > Alephs were inductively defined this way. Then, using AC, we proved that > Aleph-one was the first cardinal strictly larger than Alpeh-zero. Two-to-the-power-of a cardinal number is per definition the size of the power set of some set having the aforementioned cardinal. So your definition is slightly different terminology for saying the same thing I said. And if you proved the two-to-the-power-of-aleph-null is the first cardinal strictly larger than aleph-null using only the axiom of choice, then one of us must be mistaken, because I thought that was exactly the statement that the continuum hypothesis made. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 26 02:57:43 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GU2c-0005cp-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:57:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:57:23 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GU1u-0005cM-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:56:46 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:56:38 +0200 (EET) Received: from asteroids.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.176]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GU1l-0005cE-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:56:37 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 23972 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 00:56:03 -0000 Received: from 187.16.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.16.187]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 26 Nov 2002 00:56:03 -0000 Message-ID: <3DE2C2D0.4090803@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:39:44 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete References: <20021119093028.C291934664@abydos.freakymousemats.net> <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> <3DDC249E.6050705@dds.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Daniel. wrote: >> This doesn't necessarily work. Though languages where this does not hold >> are rare, probably only ocurring when someone explicitly decides to >> provide >> a counterexample, it is still possible for a interpreter of, say, >> Brainfuck >> to exist in language X without language X being Turing-complete, if >> langage >> X is not capable of hard-coding constants. The trivial pathological >> example >> would be a language which has only one valid input file (much like >> ACCIDENT, >> but more boring), which compiles into the program "intepret a Brainfuck >> program that is given on standard input". > > > I didn't mean to say that writing an interpreter was a universally valid > method. One pitfall I was seeing is that many languages are not very > self-contained. If you write an interpreter in C which uses UNIX system > calls to pass things to a Scheme interpreter, the language you've just > proved Turing-completeness of is one consisting of C, plus your flavor > of UNIX, plus your flavor of Scheme... > > That being said, I don't see why you would say your particular example > wasn't Turing-complete. What would normally be source code and what > would normally be input data both come in via standard input, but that's > the case for a universal Turing machine as well. No. There is an important difference between "a language in which the programs are Turing machines" and "a language in which the only possible program is one that reads a Turing machine description from standard input and evaluates it". The former is Turing complete, the latter is not. The latter cannot even just output "Hello world!" without the user typing in the correct Turing machine. Though having no special input mechanism and requiring the input to be patched into the source (this is what the former does) is generally accepted as a primitive IO model, having no source code and requiring the source code to be patched into the input (this is what the latter does) is not. The difference is most obviously visible when you consider compiled languages (as opposed to interpreted ones) so that there is a clear distinction between "compile-tile", which is when you enter the source code, and "run-time", which is when you (in many languages) enter the input. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 26 08:09:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GYuX-00064A-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:09:29 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:09:21 +0200 (EET) Received: from web40506.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.78.123]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GYuO-000644-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:09:20 +0200 Message-ID: <20021126060848.80665.qmail@web40506.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.60.49.67] by web40506.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 06:08:48 GMT Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 06:08:48 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mathew=20Carr?= Subject: Visual Trefunge needs YOU To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1809524297-1038290928=:77784" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mattycarr_uk@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --0-1809524297-1038290928=:77784 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does anyone know where I can upload the newest beta version of visual trefunge so you can all laugh at it? And does anyone know a good site with a range of sources on it so I can test that all the character command element panels work correctly? --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs --0-1809524297-1038290928=:77784 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Does anyone know where I can upload the newest beta version of visual trefunge so you can all laugh at it?

And does anyone know a good site with a range of sources on it so I can test that all the character command element panels work correctly?


With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs
--0-1809524297-1038290928=:77784-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 26 09:56:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GaZg-0006Nj-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:56:04 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:55:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GaXi-0006Mb-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:54:02 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:53:54 +0200 (EET) Received: from lutra.sztaki.hu ([193.225.86.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GaXZ-0006MV-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:53:53 +0200 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.sztaki.hu by sztaki.hu (PMDF V6.1-1 #30524) id <0H6600B01B9MXW@sztaki.hu> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:53:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from sztaki.hu by sztaki.hu (PMDF V6.1-1 #30524) id <0H6600B01B9MXV@sztaki.hu> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:53:46 +0100 (MET) Resent-date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:53:46 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:53:46 +0100 From: Pal Benko Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete In-reply-to: <3DE2C4D3.60103@dds.nl> Sender: benko@sztaki.hu To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <3405-Tue26Nov2002085346+0100-benko@lutra.sztaki.hu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: emacs 20.6.1 (via feedmail 8 I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-Id: Resent-From: benko@sztaki.hu Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:53:53 +0200 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benko@sztaki.hu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benko@sztaki.hu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc From benko Tue Nov 26 08: 53 MET 2002 References: <3405-Thu21Nov2002091852+0100-benko@lutra.sztaki.hu> <3DE2C4D3.60103@dds.nl> > Okay, let's see if we're talking about the same axiom here. What I > seem to remember the continuum hypothesis to be is as follows: > > "There are no cardinals lying strictly between that of the natural > numbers and that of the real numbers." Correct. There is the Generalised Continuum Hypothesis stating that aleph-alpha =3D beth-alpha for all ordinals alpha (or that there is no cardinality between the cardinality of any set and the cardinality of its power set (BTW, confusingly enough, power of a set means its cardinality and not its power set)). > When I mention what I posted first to my teachers, they say > something along the lines of "well, that's how it's defined and you > can't change it now, logical or not", without mentioning anything > about any beth. The point in the alephs is enumerating all cardinals, and that is what makes them more interesting to set theoreticians than beths, and also what makes your alternative naming scheme (aleph-half) unfeasible. But perhaps you find the following definition constructive enough: aleph-one is the cardinality of all well-orderings of aleph-zero, etc. (Of course this is the same as the cardinality of all countable ordinals.) > It is also perfectly consistent that there exist cardinals for which we > will never be able to give any name. Since we just have finitely many names.... p -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Nov 26 17:14:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GhPY-0008XI-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:14:04 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:13:56 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GhNR-0008W5-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:11:53 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:11:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18GhNI-0008Vz-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:11:44 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id gAQFBhi6021388; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:11:43 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18GhHt-0003by-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:06:09 +0200 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:06:09 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: Milo van Handel Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Turing-complete Message-ID: <20021126150605.GN13550@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Milo van Handel , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20021119093028.C291934664@abydos.freakymousemats.net> <15834.13076.59520.474333@eidolon.muppetlabs.com> <3DDC249E.6050705@dds.nl> <3DE2C2D0.4090803@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DE2C2D0.4090803@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 01:39:44AM +0100, Milo van Handel wrote: > >That being said, I don't see why you would say your particular example > >wasn't Turing-complete. What would normally be source code and what > >would normally be input data both come in via standard input, but that's > >the case for a universal Turing machine as well. > No. There is an important difference between "a language in which the > programs are Turing machines" and "a language in which the only possible > program is one that reads a Turing machine description from standard input > and evaluates it". The former is Turing complete, the latter is not. The > latter cannot even just output "Hello world!" without the user typing in the > correct Turing machine. Though having no special input mechanism and This is not a very good criterion, as with theory of computation the notions of "program" and "input" are not necessarily separate. It's a distinction that does not do any good to understand the model. If a language definition requires input to be some specific encoding of a Turing machine, then the language definition _really_ considers the input, not the imaginary program you point at. > consider compiled languages (as opposed to interpreted ones) so that there > is a clear distinction between "compile-tile", which is when you enter the > source code, and "run-time", which is when you (in many languages) enter the > input. This is another distinction that makes little sense when we talk about languages as theoretical entities. -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 03 01:56:23 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J0Q0-0002VP-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:56:04 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:55:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J0P3-0002V2-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:55:05 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:54:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from asteroids.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.176]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J0Ou-0002Un-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:54:56 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 18696 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2002 23:54:11 -0000 Received: from 22.16.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.16.22]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 2 Dec 2002 23:54:11 -0000 Message-ID: <3DEBEE59.8030104@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:35:53 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [_code] 99 bottles of _beer, err, beer Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020702080209070608040100" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020702080209070608040100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So there already existed a ten green bottles program, but mine is better, because it prints out ten times as many verses in less than double the space. This is mainly because the green bottles program had all the numbers hard-coded, while my bottles of beer program uses something that might, if you just drank 99 bottles of beer, be considered to be "calculation". It performs the decrement by keeping the two digits in seperate macros, and then using an obfuscation of lambda expressions and meta-self-modifying macros (don't ask). this means that it intrinsically depends on there only being two digits, however I am convinced that someone who has enough time on his hands and is insane enough to waste it on _code will be able to construct lambda expressions that do the real thing with an arbitrary amount of digits. --------------020702080209070608040100 Content-Type: text/plain; name="beer._c" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="beer._c" [zs][Z][P] [9\9[k\k[<8]][K[>8]]] [8\8[k\k[<7]][K[>7]]] [7\7[k\k[<6]][K[>6]]] [6\6[k\k[<5]][K[>5]]] [5\5[k\k[<4]][K[>4]]] [4\4[k\k[<3]][K[>3]]] [3\3[k\k[<2]][K[>2]]] [2\2[k\k[<1]Z][K[>1]]] [1\1[k\k[<0]][K[>][Z[z][P(`p')`p'][1\1[k\k[>n][< bottlez of beer on the wall,\n >< bottlez of beer.\n Take one down, pass it around,\n >< bottlez of beer on the wall.\n\n VP(V)'] [>9][<9] V(V) No bottles of beer on the wall,\n no bottles of beer.\n Go to the store, buy some more,\n 99 bottles of beer on the wall.\n --------------020702080209070608040100-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 03 01:56:23 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J0Q0-0002VM-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:56:04 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:55:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J0P3-0002V4-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:55:05 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:54:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from asteroids.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.176]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J0Ou-0002Uo-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:54:56 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 18768 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2002 23:54:18 -0000 Received: from 22.16.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.16.22]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 2 Dec 2002 23:54:18 -0000 Message-ID: <3DEBF208.9080907@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:51:36 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [INTERCAL] Hunt the Wumpus in the first esoteric language ever Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090000010107080101010103" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090000010107080101010103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That just about says it. Doesn't really use any new programming tricks that could be reused in other INTERCAL programs. In this version of the game, you get to shoot only *one* crooked bullet (well, INTERCAL was already obsolete when it came out, so I've got to use *some* new technology :) and if you miss the noise will awaken the wumpus who will find and eat you. This isn't as hard as it sounds, provided you have a map of the game world (which is just a numbered dodecahedron) and actually use the bullet's crookedness, instead of just shooting it one room away like a naive player would. If the game provided four bullets and the wumpus didn't move after you missed, then you would be able to shoot them in such a way as to guarantee victory (unless you were dropped into a pit or the wumpus's mouth on your first turn, though this game will not do the former). Like in the original version, there are two pits and two bats. I wish you good luck if you try playing the game, and I wish you a miracle if you try understanding the code :) --------------090000010107080101010103 Content-Type: text/plain; name="wumpus.i" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="wumpus.i" PLEASE NOTE GREETING TEXT DO ,10 <- #28 DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #22 DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #68 DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #112 DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #112 DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #208 DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #64 DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #16 DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #162 DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #214 DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #56 DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #242 DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #242 DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #100 DO ,10 SUB #14 <- #56 DO ,10 SUB #15 <- #72 DO ,10 SUB #16 <- #42 DO ,10 SUB #17 <- #214 DO ,10 SUB #18 <- #24 DO ,10 SUB #19 <- #112 DO ,10 SUB #20 <- #162 DO ,10 SUB #21 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #22 <- #60 DO ,10 SUB #23 <- #248 DO ,10 SUB #24 <- #168 DO ,10 SUB #25 <- #96 DO ,10 SUB #26 <- #224 DO ,10 SUB #27 <- #74 DO ,10 SUB #28 <- #52 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 PLEASE NOTE ,2 DESCRIBES TUNNELS DO ,2 <- #20 BY #3 DO ,2 SUB #1 #1 <- #2 DO ,2 SUB #1 #2 <- #5 DO ,2 SUB #1 #3 <- #8 DO ,2 SUB #2 #1 <- #1 DO ,2 SUB #2 #2 <- #3 DO ,2 SUB #2 #3 <- #10 DO ,2 SUB #3 #1 <- #2 DO ,2 SUB #3 #2 <- #4 DO ,2 SUB #3 #3 <- #12 DO ,2 SUB #4 #1 <- #3 DO ,2 SUB #4 #2 <- #5 DO ,2 SUB #4 #3 <- #14 DO ,2 SUB #5 #1 <- #1 DO ,2 SUB #5 #2 <- #4 DO ,2 SUB #5 #3 <- #6 DO ,2 SUB #6 #1 <- #5 DO ,2 SUB #6 #2 <- #7 DO ,2 SUB #6 #3 <- #15 DO ,2 SUB #7 #1 <- #6 DO ,2 SUB #7 #2 <- #8 DO ,2 SUB #7 #3 <- #17 DO ,2 SUB #8 #1 <- #1 DO ,2 SUB #8 #2 <- #7 DO ,2 SUB #8 #3 <- #9 DO ,2 SUB #9 #1 <- #8 DO ,2 SUB #9 #2 <- #10 DO ,2 SUB #9 #3 <- #18 DO ,2 SUB #10 #1 <- #2 DO ,2 SUB #10 #2 <- #9 DO ,2 SUB #10 #3 <- #11 DO ,2 SUB #11 #1 <- #10 DO ,2 SUB #11 #2 <- #12 DO ,2 SUB #11 #3 <- #19 DO ,2 SUB #12 #1 <- #3 DO ,2 SUB #12 #2 <- #11 DO ,2 SUB #12 #3 <- #13 DO ,2 SUB #13 #1 <- #12 DO ,2 SUB #13 #2 <- #14 DO ,2 SUB #13 #3 <- #20 DO ,2 SUB #14 #1 <- #4 DO ,2 SUB #14 #2 <- #13 DO ,2 SUB #14 #3 <- #15 DO ,2 SUB #15 #1 <- #6 DO ,2 SUB #15 #2 <- #14 DO ,2 SUB #15 #3 <- #16 DO ,2 SUB #16 #1 <- #15 DO ,2 SUB #16 #2 <- #17 DO ,2 SUB #16 #3 <- #20 DO ,2 SUB #17 #1 <- #7 DO ,2 SUB #17 #2 <- #16 DO ,2 SUB #17 #3 <- #18 DO ,2 SUB #18 #1 <- #9 DO ,2 SUB #18 #2 <- #17 DO ,2 SUB #18 #3 <- #19 DO ,2 SUB #19 #1 <- #11 DO ,2 SUB #19 #2 <- #18 DO ,2 SUB #19 #3 <- #20 DO ,2 SUB #20 #1 <- #13 DO ,2 SUB #20 #2 <- #16 DO ,2 SUB #20 #3 <- #19 PLEASE NOTE ,13 DESCRIBES HAZARDS 0=SAFE 1=BATS 2=PIT DO ,13 <- #20 DO ,13 SUB #1 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #2 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #3 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #4 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #5 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #6 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #7 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #8 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #9 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #10 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #11 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #12 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #13 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #14 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #15 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #16 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #17 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #18 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #19 <- #0 DO ,13 SUB #20 <- #0 DO (125) NEXT DO ,13 SUB .1 <- #1 DO (125) NEXT DO ,13 SUB .1 <- #1 DO (125) NEXT DO ,13 SUB .1 <- #2 DO (125) NEXT DO ,13 SUB .1 <- #2 PLEASE NOTE .100 IS YOUR LOCATION DO (125) NEXT DO .100 <- .1 PLEASE NOTE .666 IS WUMPUS'S LOCATION PLEASE NOTE MAY BE SAME AS PLAYER DO (12) NEXT DO .666 <- .1 PLEASE NOTE MAIN LOOP PLEASE COME FROM (200) DO ,10 <- #17 DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #182 DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #164 DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #72 DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #170 DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #126 DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #56 DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #168 DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #162 DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #110 DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #32 DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #114 DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #182 DO ,10 SUB #14 <- #88 DO ,10 SUB #15 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #16 <- #64 DO ,10 SUB #17 <- #102 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 PLEASE READ OUT .100 PLEASE DO (210) NEXT PLEASE DO (220) NEXT PLEASE DO (266) NEXT PLEASE DO (286) NEXT PLEASE DO (225) NEXT DO ,10 <- #27 DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #38 DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #20 DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #112 DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #88 DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #168 DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #162 DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #126 DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #56 DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #168 DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #162 DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #214 DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #128 DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #56 DO ,10 SUB #14 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #15 <- #208 DO ,10 SUB #16 <- #112 DO ,10 SUB #17 <- #104 DO ,10 SUB #18 <- #202 DO ,10 SUB #19 <- #214 DO ,10 SUB #20 <- #56 DO ,10 SUB #21 <- #242 DO ,10 SUB #22 <- #182 DO ,10 SUB #23 <- #88 DO ,10 SUB #24 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #25 <- #64 DO ,10 SUB #26 <- #232 DO ,10 SUB #27 <- #126 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 PLEASE READ OUT ,2 SUB .100 #1 PLEASE READ OUT ,2 SUB .100 #2 PLEASE READ OUT ,2 SUB .100 #3 PLEASE DO ,10 <- #113 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #38 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #140 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #144 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #104 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #162 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #126 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #130 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #182 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #88 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #0 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #64 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #178 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #142 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #14 <- #200 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #15 <- #248 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #16 <- #112 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #17 <- #160 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #18 <- #88 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #19 <- #74 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #20 <- #214 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #21 <- #56 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #22 <- #242 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #23 <- #78 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #24 <- #192 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #25 <- #136 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #26 <- #200 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #27 <- #162 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #28 <- #214 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #29 <- #24 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #30 <- #112 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #31 <- #88 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #32 <- #168 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #33 <- #50 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #34 <- #36 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #35 <- #38 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #36 <- #140 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #37 <- #144 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #38 <- #104 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #39 <- #162 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #40 <- #218 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #41 <- #64 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #42 <- #248 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #43 <- #238 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #44 <- #234 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #45 <- #22 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #46 <- #214 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #47 <- #56 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #48 <- #242 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #49 <- #54 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #50 <- #184 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #51 <- #32 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #52 <- #0 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #53 <- #200 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #54 <- #42 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #55 <- #126 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #56 <- #130 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #57 <- #62 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #58 <- #120 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #59 <- #88 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #60 <- #0 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #61 <- #32 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #62 <- #48 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #63 <- #128 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #64 <- #34 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #65 <- #190 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #66 <- #152 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #67 <- #120 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #68 <- #0 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #69 <- #144 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #70 <- #120 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #71 <- #42 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #72 <- #214 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #73 <- #24 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #74 <- #200 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #75 <- #88 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #76 <- #72 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #77 <- #200 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #78 <- #208 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #79 <- #18 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #80 <- #234 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #81 <- #22 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #82 <- #240 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #83 <- #198 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #84 <- #200 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #85 <- #16 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #86 <- #144 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #87 <- #64 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #88 <- #162 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #89 <- #18 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #90 <- #128 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #91 <- #208 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #92 <- #158 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #93 <- #214 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #94 <- #24 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #95 <- #200 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #96 <- #88 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #97 <- #72 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #98 <- #200 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #99 <- #208 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #100 <- #18 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #101 <- #162 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #102 <- #208 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #103 <- #40 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #104 <- #200 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #105 <- #14 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #106 <- #144 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #107 <- #182 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #108 <- #88 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #109 <- #0 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #110 <- #64 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #111 <- #232 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #112 <- #90 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #113 <- #36 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 PLEASE WRITE IN .10 DO (325) NEXT (200) DON'T GIVE UP PLEASE NOTE BATS NEARBY (210) DO (209) NEXT DO ,10 <- #13 DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #14 DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #188 DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #88 DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #96 DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #202 DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #142 DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #208 DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #32 DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #56 DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #8 DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #168 DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #52 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 PLEASE RESUME #1 (209) DO (211) NEXT DO (212) NEXT DO (213) NEXT PLEASE RESUME #2 (211) PLEASE FORGET ",13 SUB ',2 SUB .100 #1'"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (212) PLEASE FORGET ",13 SUB ',2 SUB .100 #2'"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (213) PLEASE FORGET ",13 SUB ',2 SUB .100 #3'"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 PLEASE NOTE I FEEL A DRAFT (220) DO (219) NEXT DO ,10 <- #16 DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #190 DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #142 DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #158 DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #192 DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #112 DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #50 DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #126 DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #130 DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #222 DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #216 DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #200 DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #32 DO ,10 SUB #14 <- #56 DO ,10 SUB #15 <- #170 DO ,10 SUB #16 <- #52 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 (219) DO (221) NEXT DO (222) NEXT DO (223) NEXT PLEASE RESUME #2 (221) PLEASE FORGET ",13 SUB ',2 SUB .100 #1'"~#2 PLEASE RESUME #1 (222) PLEASE FORGET ",13 SUB ',2 SUB .100 #2'"~#2 PLEASE RESUME #1 (223) PLEASE FORGET ",13 SUB ',2 SUB .100 #3'"~#2 PLEASE RESUME #1 PLEASE NOTE I SMELL A WUMPUS (266) DO (265) NEXT DO ,10 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #190 DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #142 DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #54 DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #24 DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #16 DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #112 DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #50 DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #126 DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #130 DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #22 DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #64 DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #248 DO ,10 SUB #14 <- #168 DO ,10 SUB #15 <- #96 DO ,10 SUB #16 <- #224 DO ,10 SUB #17 <- #74 DO ,10 SUB #18 <- #52 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 PLEASE RESUME #1 (265) DO (267) NEXT DO (268) NEXT DO (269) NEXT PLEASE RESUME #2 (267) DO .6 <- "?.666$,2 SUB .100 #1"~"#0$#65535" PLEASE FORGET "?'.6~.6'$#1"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (268) DO .6 <- "?.666$,2 SUB .100 #2"~"#0$#65535" PLEASE FORGET "?'.6~.6'$#1"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (269) DO .6 <- "?.666$,2 SUB .100 #3"~"#0$#65535" PLEASE FORGET "?'.6~.6'$#1"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 PLEASE NOTE THE WUMPUS EATS YOU (286) DO (288) NEXT DO ,10 <- #21 DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #38 DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #20 DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #112 DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #162 DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #22 DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #64 DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #248 DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #168 DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #96 DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #224 DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #202 DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #94 DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #32 DO ,10 SUB #14 <- #88 DO ,10 SUB #15 <- #96 DO ,10 SUB #16 <- #202 DO ,10 SUB #17 <- #102 DO ,10 SUB #18 <- #168 DO ,10 SUB #19 <- #72 DO ,10 SUB #20 <- #42 DO ,10 SUB #21 <- #52 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 PLEASE GIVE UP (288) DO .6 <- "?.666$.100"~"#0$#65535" PLEASE FORGET ".6~.6"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 PLEASE NOTE YOU FALL INTO A PIT (225) PLEASE DO (215) NEXT DO ,10 <- #21 DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #182 DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #164 DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #72 DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #170 DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #158 DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #224 DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #80 DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #50 DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #110 DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #32 DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #72 DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #56 DO ,10 SUB #14 <- #242 DO ,10 SUB #15 <- #126 DO ,10 SUB #16 <- #130 DO ,10 SUB #17 <- #246 DO ,10 SUB #18 <- #120 DO ,10 SUB #19 <- #104 DO ,10 SUB #20 <- #170 DO ,10 SUB #21 <- #52 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 PLEASE GIVE UP PLEASE NOTE YOU ARE PICKED UP BY BATS (215) PLEASE DO (205) NEXT DO ,10 <- #27 DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #182 DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #164 DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #72 DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #170 DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #126 DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #56 DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #168 DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #162 DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #246 DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #120 DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #208 DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #240 DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #48 DO ,10 SUB #14 <- #128 DO ,10 SUB #15 <- #34 DO ,10 SUB #16 <- #86 DO ,10 SUB #17 <- #160 DO ,10 SUB #18 <- #10 DO ,10 SUB #19 <- #190 DO ,10 SUB #20 <- #168 DO ,10 SUB #21 <- #154 DO ,10 SUB #22 <- #190 DO ,10 SUB #23 <- #192 DO ,10 SUB #24 <- #88 DO ,10 SUB #25 <- #96 DO ,10 SUB #26 <- #74 DO ,10 SUB #27 <- #52 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 DO (12) NEXT DO .100 <- .1 DO (200) NEXT PLEASE RESUME #2 PLEASE NOTE CHECK FOR HAZARDS (205) DO (505) NEXT PLEASE RESUME #3 (505) PLEASE FORGET ,13 SUB .100 PLEASE RESUME #1 PLEASE NOTE MOVE OR SHOOT (325) DO (320) NEXT DO (350) NEXT DO ,10 <- #15 DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #190 DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #28 DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #8 DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #232 DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #80 DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #160 DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #112 DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #34 DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #110 DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #32 DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #104 DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #96 DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #128 DO ,10 SUB #14 <- #186 DO ,10 SUB #15 <- #36 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 PLEASE RESUME #1 PLEASE NOTE MOVE (320) DO (640) NEXT DO .100 <- .10 PLEASE RESUME #2 (640) DO (641) NEXT DO (642) NEXT DO (643) NEXT PLEASE RESUME #2 (641) DO .6 <- "?.10$,2 SUB .100 #1"~"#0$#65535" PLEASE FORGET "?'.6~.6'$#1"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (642) DO .6 <- "?.10$,2 SUB .100 #2"~"#0$#65535" PLEASE FORGET "?'.6~.6'$#1"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (643) DO .6 <- "?.10$,2 SUB .100 #3"~"#0$#65535" PLEASE FORGET "?'.6~.6'$#1"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 PLEASE NOTE SHOOT (350) DO (700) NEXT DO (701) NEXT DO (702) NEXT DO (703) NEXT PLEASE DO ,10 <- #13 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #102 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #212 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #128 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #208 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #176 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #18 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #182 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #88 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #0 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #64 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #232 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #210 PLEASE DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #172 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 PLEASE REINSTATE (711) PLEASE REINSTATE (712) PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM (741) PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM (742) DO .125 <- "?'.10~#7'$#4"~#21 DO .11 <- #0 DO .12 <- .100 PLEASE COME FROM (555) PLEASE WRITE IN .52 DO (699) NEXT DO .11 <- .12 DO .12 <- .52 (711) DO (721) NEXT (712) DO (722) NEXT DO .125 <- "?.125$#1"~#21 DO .125 <- "?.125$'".125~#1"$#0'"~#21 DO .125 <- "?.125$'#0$"'"'".125~#3"~".125~#3"'~#2"'$#0"'"~#21 (555) DO (710) NEXT (700) PLEASE FORGET "?'&".10~#16"$"'.10~#12'~'.10~#12'"'$#1"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (701) PLEASE FORGET "?'"'?.10$#20'~'#0$#65535'"~"'?.10$#20'~'#0$#65535'"'$#1"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (702) PLEASE FORGET "'.10~#65504'~'.10~#65504'"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (703) PLEASE FORGET "&'"'.10~#24'~'.10~#24'"~#2'$'"'.10~#6'~'.10~#6'"~#1'"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (710) DO (709) NEXT (741) DO (751) NEXT (742) DO (752) NEXT DO ,10 <- #24 DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #182 DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #164 DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #72 DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #170 DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #22 DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #248 DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #32 DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #48 DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #162 DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #86 DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #160 DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #10 DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #214 DO ,10 SUB #14 <- #24 DO ,10 SUB #15 <- #112 DO ,10 SUB #16 <- #162 DO ,10 SUB #17 <- #22 DO ,10 SUB #18 <- #64 DO ,10 SUB #19 <- #248 DO ,10 SUB #20 <- #168 DO ,10 SUB #21 <- #96 DO ,10 SUB #22 <- #224 DO ,10 SUB #23 <- #74 DO ,10 SUB #24 <- #52 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 PLEASE GIVE UP (709) PLEASE FORGET ".125~.125"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (699) DO (698) NEXT DO (697) NEXT PLEASE RESUME #1 (698) PLEASE RESUME "'?"'"?.52$.11"~"#0$#65535"'~'"?.52$.11"~"#0$#65535"'"$#1'~#1"$#1 (697) DO (696) NEXT DO (695) NEXT DO (694) NEXT PLEASE RESUME #3 (696) DO .6 <- "?.52$,2 SUB .12 #1"~"#0$#65535" PLEASE FORGET "?'.6~.6'$#1"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (695) DO .6 <- "?.52$,2 SUB .12 #2"~"#0$#65535" PLEASE FORGET "?'.6~.6'$#1"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (694) DO .6 <- "?.52$,2 SUB .12 #3"~"#0$#65535" PLEASE FORGET "?'.6~.6'$#1"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (721) DO (731) NEXT PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM (711) PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM (712) PLEASE REINSTATE (741) PLEASE RESUME #1 (731) PLEASE FORGET "'"?.12$.100"~#341'~'"?.12$.100"~#341'"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 (722) DO (732) NEXT PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM (711) PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM (712) PLEASE REINSTATE (742) PLEASE RESUME #1 (732) PLEASE FORGET "'"?.12$.666"~#341'~'"?.12$.666"~#341'"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 PLEASE NOTE YOU SHOT YOURSELF (751) DO ,10 <- #19 DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #182 DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #164 DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #72 DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #170 DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #54 DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #184 DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #32 DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #200 DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #42 DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #102 DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #168 DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #72 DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #96 DO ,10 SUB #14 <- #128 DO ,10 SUB #15 <- #40 DO ,10 SUB #16 <- #112 DO ,10 SUB #17 <- #208 DO ,10 SUB #18 <- #226 DO ,10 SUB #19 <- #52 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 PLEASE GIVE UP PLEASE NOTE YOU HIT THE WUMPUS (752) DO ,10 <- #239 DO ,10 SUB #1 <- #182 DO ,10 SUB #2 <- #164 DO ,10 SUB #3 <- #72 DO ,10 SUB #4 <- #170 DO ,10 SUB #5 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #6 <- #128 DO ,10 SUB #7 <- #104 DO ,10 SUB #8 <- #42 DO ,10 SUB #9 <- #214 DO ,10 SUB #10 <- #24 DO ,10 SUB #11 <- #112 DO ,10 SUB #12 <- #162 DO ,10 SUB #13 <- #22 DO ,10 SUB #14 <- #64 DO ,10 SUB #15 <- #248 DO ,10 SUB #16 <- #168 DO ,10 SUB #17 <- #96 DO ,10 SUB #18 <- #224 DO ,10 SUB #19 <- #74 DO ,10 SUB #20 <- #52 DO ,10 SUB #21 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #22 <- #182 DO ,10 SUB #23 <- #150 DO ,10 SUB #24 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #25 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #26 <- #106 DO ,10 SUB #27 <- #150 DO ,10 SUB #28 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #29 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #30 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #31 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #32 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #33 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #34 <- #90 DO ,10 SUB #35 <- #166 DO ,10 SUB #36 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #37 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #38 <- #90 DO ,10 SUB #39 <- #166 DO ,10 SUB #40 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #41 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #42 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #43 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #44 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #45 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #46 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #47 <- #230 DO ,10 SUB #48 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #49 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #50 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #51 <- #230 DO ,10 SUB #52 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #53 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #54 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #55 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #56 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #57 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #58 <- #146 DO ,10 SUB #59 <- #110 DO ,10 SUB #60 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #61 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #62 <- #146 DO ,10 SUB #63 <- #110 DO ,10 SUB #64 <- #128 DO ,10 SUB #65 <- #52 DO ,10 SUB #66 <- #76 DO ,10 SUB #67 <- #106 DO ,10 SUB #68 <- #150 DO ,10 SUB #69 <- #106 DO ,10 SUB #70 <- #150 DO ,10 SUB #71 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #72 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #73 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #74 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #75 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #76 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #77 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #78 <- #90 DO ,10 SUB #79 <- #166 DO ,10 SUB #80 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #81 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #82 <- #90 DO ,10 SUB #83 <- #166 DO ,10 SUB #84 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #85 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #86 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #87 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #88 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #89 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #90 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #91 <- #230 DO ,10 SUB #92 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #93 <- #230 DO ,10 SUB #94 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #95 <- #230 DO ,10 SUB #96 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #97 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #98 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #99 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #100 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #101 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #102 <- #146 DO ,10 SUB #103 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #104 <- #110 DO ,10 SUB #105 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #106 <- #146 DO ,10 SUB #107 <- #110 DO ,10 SUB #108 <- #128 DO ,10 SUB #109 <- #52 DO ,10 SUB #110 <- #76 DO ,10 SUB #111 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #112 <- #106 DO ,10 SUB #113 <- #150 DO ,10 SUB #114 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #115 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #116 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #117 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #118 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #119 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #120 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #121 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #122 <- #90 DO ,10 SUB #123 <- #166 DO ,10 SUB #124 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #125 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #126 <- #90 DO ,10 SUB #127 <- #166 DO ,10 SUB #128 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #129 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #130 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #131 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #132 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #133 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #134 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #135 <- #230 DO ,10 SUB #136 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #137 <- #230 DO ,10 SUB #138 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #139 <- #230 DO ,10 SUB #140 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #141 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #142 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #143 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #144 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #145 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #146 <- #146 DO ,10 SUB #147 <- #110 DO ,10 SUB #148 <- #146 DO ,10 SUB #149 <- #110 DO ,10 SUB #150 <- #146 DO ,10 SUB #151 <- #110 DO ,10 SUB #152 <- #128 DO ,10 SUB #153 <- #52 DO ,10 SUB #154 <- #76 DO ,10 SUB #155 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #156 <- #106 DO ,10 SUB #157 <- #150 DO ,10 SUB #158 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #159 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #160 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #161 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #162 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #163 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #164 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #165 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #166 <- #90 DO ,10 SUB #167 <- #166 DO ,10 SUB #168 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #169 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #170 <- #90 DO ,10 SUB #171 <- #166 DO ,10 SUB #172 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #173 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #174 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #175 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #176 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #177 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #178 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #179 <- #230 DO ,10 SUB #180 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #181 <- #230 DO ,10 SUB #182 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #183 <- #230 DO ,10 SUB #184 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #185 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #186 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #187 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #188 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #189 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #190 <- #146 DO ,10 SUB #191 <- #110 DO ,10 SUB #192 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #193 <- #146 DO ,10 SUB #194 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #195 <- #34 DO ,10 SUB #196 <- #76 DO ,10 SUB #197 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #198 <- #106 DO ,10 SUB #199 <- #150 DO ,10 SUB #200 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #201 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #202 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #203 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #204 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #205 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #206 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #207 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #208 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #209 <- #90 DO ,10 SUB #210 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #211 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #212 <- #166 DO ,10 SUB #213 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #214 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #215 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #216 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #217 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #218 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #219 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #220 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #221 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #222 <- #230 DO ,10 SUB #223 <- #26 DO ,10 SUB #224 <- #230 DO ,10 SUB #225 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #226 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #227 <- #18 DO ,10 SUB #228 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #229 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #230 <- #238 DO ,10 SUB #231 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #232 <- #146 DO ,10 SUB #233 <- #110 DO ,10 SUB #234 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #235 <- #0 DO ,10 SUB #236 <- #146 DO ,10 SUB #237 <- #110 DO ,10 SUB #238 <- #128 DO ,10 SUB #239 <- #52 PLEASE READ OUT ,10 PLEASE GIVE UP PLEASE NOTE RANDOM ROOM PLEASE COME FROM (15) (12) DO .1 <- #0 DO %50 .1 <- 'V.1$#1'~'#0$#65535' DO %50 .1 <- 'V.1$#2'~'#0$#65535' DO %50 .1 <- 'V.1$#4'~'#0$#65535' DO %50 .1 <- 'V.1$#8'~'#0$#65535' DO %50 .1 <- 'V.1$#16'~'#0$#65535' DO (13) NEXT DO (1020) NEXT PLEASE RESUME #1 (13) DO (14) NEXT (15) PLEASE FORGET #1 (14) PLEASE FORGET "?'&".1~#16"$"'.1~#12'~'.1~#12'"'$#1"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 PLEASE NOTE RANDOM SAFE ROOM PLEASE COME FROM (128) (125) DO (12) NEXT DO (126) NEXT PLEASE RESUME #1 (126) DO (127) NEXT (128) PLEASE FORGET #1 (127) PLEASE FORGET "?'",13 SUB .1"~",13 SUB .1"'$#1"~#1 PLEASE RESUME #1 --------------090000010107080101010103-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 03 06:37:39 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J4oM-00034p-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 06:37:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 03 Dec 2002 06:37:23 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J4np-00034i-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 06:36:57 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 03 Dec 2002 06:36:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtp1.pei.aibn.com ([142.176.17.242] helo=bridge3.itas.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J4ng-00034c-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 06:36:48 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (islandtelecom249-16.islandtelecom.com [142.177.249.16]) by bridge3.itas.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA10687 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 04:35:17 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Stephen Mosher Organization: Hostworks To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [INTERCAL] Hunt the Wumpus in the first esoteric language ever Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 00:36:36 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1 References: <3DEBF208.9080907@dds.nl> In-Reply-To: <3DEBF208.9080907@dds.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200212030036.36753.smosher@hostworks.ca> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: smosher@hostworks.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: smosher@hostworks.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On December 2, 2002 19:51 pm, you wrote: > That just about says it What about Befunge? There was a version written in Befunge, wasn't there? -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 03 09:06:23 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J78K-0003Fc-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 09:06:16 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 03 Dec 2002 09:06:09 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J77v-0003FV-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 09:05:51 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 03 Dec 2002 09:05:43 +0200 (EET) Received: from relay-2v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.113]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J77m-0003FP-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 09:05:42 +0200 Received: from club-internet.fr (lcbv2-1-6.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.12.6]) by relay-2v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 124EE1694 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:05:38 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3DEC57B7.7DD41C5D@club-internet.fr> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 08:05:27 +0100 From: Laurent Vogel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] 99 bottles of _beer, err, beer References: <3DEBEE59.8030104@dds.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Milo van Handel a écrit: > > So there already existed a ten green bottles program, but mine is better, > because it prints out ten times as many verses in less than double the space. Your version is fun. Note however that the version I already sent to http://99-bottles-of-beer.ls-la.net is somewhat shorter (especially after removing the comment): [# _code version of 99 bottles of beer ] [# Laurent Vogel, http://lvogel.free.fr ] [# _code url: http://home.btclick.com/djfletcher/prog/ ] [B bottle][Ss][O of beer][W on the wall][R`xxC.\n\nP(x)'] [U\n][P`xxC,UxBSO.UTake one down, pass it around,U'][CBSOW]P(99) [D`xx(8)x(7)x(6)x(5)x(4)x(3)x(2)'][A`xD(`yR(xy)')']A(9)R(91)R(90) `xD(x)x(1)'(`xR(x9)A(x)R(x1)R(x0)')A()[S]R(1)[Ss]No moreC.U -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 03 11:31:36 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J9Os-0003x5-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 11:31:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 03 Dec 2002 11:31:23 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J9OR-0003wu-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 11:31:03 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 03 Dec 2002 11:30:55 +0200 (EET) Received: from [195.217.37.90] (helo=seatbooker.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18J9OI-0003wl-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 11:30:54 +0200 Received: from basingstoke.tecc.co.uk (basingstoke.tecc.co.uk [195.217.37.75]) by seatbooker.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19732 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:30:19 GMT Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:30:18 GMT Message-Id: <200212030930.JAA19732@seatbooker.net> From: Mike Taylor To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-reply-to: <200212030036.36753.smosher@hostworks.ca> (message from Stephen Mosher on Tue, 3 Dec 2002 00:36:36 -0400) Subject: [lang] Re: [INTERCAL] Hunt the Wumpus in the first esoteric language ever References: <3DEBF208.9080907@dds.nl> <200212030036.36753.smosher@hostworks.ca> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@seatbooker.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@seatbooker.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 00:36:36 -0400 > From: Stephen Mosher > > What about Befunge? There was a version written in Befunge, wasn't > there? He didn't say "the first Hunt the Wumpus in an esoteric language ever"; he said "Hunt the Wumpus in the first esoteric language ever". Important difference. _/|_ _______________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "Never attribute to malice that which can be readily explained by stupidity" -- Hanlon's Razor. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 04 03:36:18 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JOSG-0006bM-00; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 03:36:00 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 03:35:53 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JORU-0006bF-00; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 03:35:12 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 03:35:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from arkanoid.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.177] helo=asteroids.cybercomm.nl) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JORL-0006b3-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 03:35:03 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 18050 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2002 01:34:25 -0000 Received: from 85.14.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.14.85]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 4 Dec 2002 01:34:25 -0000 Message-ID: <3DED5B13.7070505@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 02:32:03 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] 99 bottles of _beer, err, beer References: <3DEBEE59.8030104@dds.nl> <3DEC57B7.7DD41C5D@club-internet.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Laurent Vogel wrote: > Milo van Handel a écrit: > >>So there already existed a ten green bottles program, but mine is better, >>because it prints out ten times as many verses in less than double the space. > > Your version is fun. Note however that the version I already sent to > http://99-bottles-of-beer.ls-la.net is somewhat shorter (especially > after removing the comment): > > [# _code version of 99 bottles of beer ] > [# Laurent Vogel, http://lvogel.free.fr ] > [# _code url: http://home.btclick.com/djfletcher/prog/ ] > > [B bottle][Ss][O of beer][W on the wall][R`xxC.\n\nP(x)'] > [U\n][P`xxC,UxBSO.UTake one down, pass it around,U'][CBSOW]P(99) > [D`xx(8)x(7)x(6)x(5)x(4)x(3)x(2)'][A`xD(`yR(xy)')']A(9)R(91)R(90) > `xD(x)x(1)'(`xR(x9)A(x)R(x1)R(x0)')A()[S]R(1)[Ss]No moreC.U You should've posted it earlier :) Still, in a quick glace, I seem to see a 8/7/6/5/4/3/2 countdown in the code, so the numbers (or at least digits) are hardcoded rather than recalculated every step. Mine isn't so very calculative either, but somewhat closer, so although perhaps not a winning submission for _code golf, it's more interesting as a proof-of-concept for what's still to come. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 04 08:27:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JT0c-0006yE-00; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 08:27:46 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 08:27:39 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JT02-0006y5-00; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 08:27:10 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 08:27:01 +0200 (EET) Received: from relay-2v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.113]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JSzt-0006xz-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 08:27:01 +0200 Received: from club-internet.fr (lcbv5-1-70.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.18.70]) by relay-2v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78EBF1693 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:26:56 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3DEDA026.54430612@club-internet.fr> Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 07:26:46 +0100 From: Laurent Vogel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] 99 bottles of _beer, err, beer References: <3DEBEE59.8030104@dds.nl> <3DEC57B7.7DD41C5D@club-internet.fr> <3DED5B13.7070505@dds.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Milo van Handel wrote: > You should've posted [your version] earlier :) yes. recently I sent a number of submissions to the beer site at http://99-bottles-of-beer.ls-la.net but apparently it takes some time to update the web pages, so I should probably post them here too. > Still, in a quick glace, I seem to see a 8/7/6/5/4/3/2 countdown in the > code, so the numbers (or at least digits) are hardcoded rather than > recalculated every step. Mine isn't so very calculative either, but > somewhat closer, so although perhaps not a winning submission for _code golf, > it's more interesting as a proof-of-concept for what's still to come. you're right. Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 04 20:10:36 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JdyW-000AGU-00; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 20:10:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 20:10:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from web40512.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.78.129]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JdyN-000AGE-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 20:10:12 +0200 Message-ID: <20021204180939.67198.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.60.44.127] by web40512.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 18:09:39 GMT Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:09:39 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mathew=20Carr?= Subject: Visual Trefunge - 02 To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-334853231-1039025379=:66655" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mattycarr_uk@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --0-334853231-1039025379=:66655 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is a lousy bad beta version of my program at http://mrdictionary.madhousedesign.org/Trefunge.zip tell me what you think. --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs --0-334853231-1039025379=:66655 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is a lousy bad beta version of my program at http://mrdictionary.madhousedesign.org/Trefunge.zip  tell me what you think.


With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs
--0-334853231-1039025379=:66655-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 04 20:23:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JeAv-000AKQ-00; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 20:23:09 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 20:23:02 +0200 (EET) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JeAo-000AKH-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 20:23:02 +0200 Received: from gin.bar (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id gB4JI4b01156 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:18:05 +0200 Received: from localhost (andreou@localhost) by gin.bar (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id gB4KMvG11436 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:22:58 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: gin.bar: andreou owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:22:57 +0000 (GMT) From: "Al. Andreou" X-X-Sender: Reply-To: cc: Subject: Re: Visual Trefunge - 02 In-Reply-To: <20021204180939.67198.qmail@web40512.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > There is a lousy bad beta version of my program at http://mrdictionary.madhousedesign.org/Trefunge.zip tell me what you think. It's lousy and bad. -- Al. Andreou | http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | http://hydra.hellug.gr/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 04 23:04:23 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Jggl-000B0P-00; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:04:11 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:04:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from web40502.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.78.119]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Jgge-000B0I-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:04:04 +0200 Message-ID: <20021204210332.6699.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.60.45.182] by web40502.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 21:03:32 GMT Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:03:32 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mathew=20Carr?= Subject: Re: Visual Trefunge - 02 To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2093881716-1039035812=:5495" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mattycarr_uk@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --0-2093881716-1039035812=:5495 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you for your honesty. "Al. Andreou" wrote:> There is a lousy bad beta version of my program at http://mrdictionary.madhousedesign.org/Trefunge.zip tell me what you think. It's lousy and bad. -- Al. Andreou | http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | http://hydra.hellug.gr/ --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs --0-2093881716-1039035812=:5495 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Thank you for your honesty.

 "Al. Andreou" <ee4299@ee.teiath.gr> wrote:

> There is a lousy bad beta version of my program at http://mrdictionary.madhousedesign.org/Trefunge.zip tell me what you think.

It's lousy and bad.

--
Al. Andreou | http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/
| http://hydra.hellug.gr/



With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs
--0-2093881716-1039035812=:5495-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 04 23:25:42 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Jh1R-000B5X-00; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:25:33 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:25:26 +0200 (EET) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Jh1J-000B5L-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:25:25 +0200 Received: from gin.bar (root@ppp5.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.58]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id gB4MKTb00443; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 00:20:29 +0200 Received: from localhost (andreou@localhost) by gin.bar (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id gB4NGNl00557; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:16:23 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: gin.bar: andreou owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:16:23 +0000 (GMT) From: "Al. Andreou" X-X-Sender: Reply-To: To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mathew=20Carr?= cc: Subject: Re: Visual Trefunge - 02 In-Reply-To: <20021204210332.6699.qmail@web40502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Thank you for your honesty. I hope you got the spirit of the message, right? No going after me with axes, I wish. :-) I'll check it out from a Win machine tomorrow (I owe that much).c 8^) -- Al. Andreou | http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | http://hydra.hellug.gr/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 04 23:28:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Jh4c-000B7m-00; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:28:50 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:28:43 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Jh4A-000B7U-00; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:28:22 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:28:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from web14006.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.175.122]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Jh41-000B7I-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:28:13 +0200 Message-ID: <20021204212811.75558.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.248.171.122] by web14006.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 21:28:11 GMT Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:28:11 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stephen=20Sykes?= Subject: [lang] Re: [INTERCAL] Hunt the Wumpus in the first esoteric language ever To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <200212030930.JAA19732@seatbooker.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > > What about Befunge? There was a version written in Befunge, wasn't > > there? > > He didn't say "the first Hunt the Wumpus in an esoteric language > ever"; he said "Hunt the Wumpus in the first esoteric language ever". > Important difference. But if you are interested in HTW for Befunge anyway, find it here: http://home.wanadoo.nl/wimrijnders/bef.htm Stephen. +- S.D.Sykes - www.stephensykes.com - +358 50 577 3879 - | "I've got two words for you: Mellow out, man." | -- Homer Simpson in ``Mr. Plow'' __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Dec 05 00:52:27 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JiNP-000BPq-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 00:52:19 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 05 Dec 2002 00:52:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JiN2-000BPe-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 00:51:56 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 05 Dec 2002 00:51:48 +0200 (EET) Received: from arkanoid.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.177] helo=asteroids.cybercomm.nl) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JiMt-000BPU-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 00:51:47 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 20288 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2002 22:51:15 -0000 Received: from 45.14.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.14.45]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 4 Dec 2002 22:51:15 -0000 Message-ID: <3DEE8651.30002@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:48:49 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] 99 bottles of _beer, err, beer References: <3DEBEE59.8030104@dds.nl> <3DEC57B7.7DD41C5D@club-internet.fr> <3DED5B13.7070505@dds.nl> <3DEDA026.54430612@club-internet.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Laurent Vogel wrote: > Milo van Handel wrote: > >>You should've posted [your version] earlier :) > > yes. recently I sent a number of submissions to the beer site at > http://99-bottles-of-beer.ls-la.net but apparently it takes some > time to update the web pages, so I should probably post them here > too. That's not the point. The point is that most of us do not periodically check http://99-bottles-of-beer.ls-la.net/, but are still interested in 99 bottles of beer programs for esoteric languages. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Dec 05 01:14:22 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Jiih-000BW4-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 01:14:19 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 05 Dec 2002 01:14:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JiiP-000BVx-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 01:14:01 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 05 Dec 2002 01:13:53 +0200 (EET) Received: from arkanoid.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.177] helo=asteroids.cybercomm.nl) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18JiiH-000BVp-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 01:13:53 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 32116 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2002 23:13:20 -0000 Received: from 45.14.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.14.45]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 4 Dec 2002 23:13:20 -0000 Message-ID: <3DEE8B82.3000602@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 00:10:58 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Hunt the Wumpus in Befunge (was INTERCAL) References: <20021204212811.75558.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Stephen Sykes wrote: > But if you are interested in HTW for Befunge anyway, find it here: > http://home.wanadoo.nl/wimrijnders/bef.htm Hmmm... I don't really know much Befunge (yet...), and don't have an interpreter right now (don't tell me where to find it, I can do that myself, but I'm already occupied with other esoteric languages and with serious tasts, and my bandwidth is very bad right now) but here are some interesting points that I can deduce just by looking at the text constants: First, "Screwed up making caves. Trying again." (reversed using a Kayak program). This means the implementation uses random caves. My implementation follows the very original Hunt the Wumpus game by working on a fixed pre-numbered dodecahedron. This makes the game much easier, since there is no need for mapping, so I trade off by giving the player one one crooked bullet (the original version had five arrows :). Second, I don't see any text that looks like the player running out of arrows. Anyway I can see you get more than one arrow. In fact, I can't find any text that looks like describing how many arrows the player has, so it might be infinite. I guess I'll really just have to try the game to see... About my fixed-cave/single-bullet tradeoff: in a purely scientific research (heh...) consisting of 20 games, I won 14 (70%), of which 9 (45%) were without any problems (in the other 5, I had situations where I was at the mercy of the random number god - being picked up by bats or smelling the wumpus just at a point that I'm just not ready for it - and won the bet). -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Dec 05 01:18:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Jimi-000Ba1-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 01:18:28 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 05 Dec 2002 01:18:21 +0200 (EET) Received: from web40510.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.78.127]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Jima-000BZs-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 01:18:21 +0200 Message-ID: <20021204231748.71702.qmail@web40510.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.60.51.67] by web40510.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:17:48 GMT Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:17:48 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mathew=20Carr?= Subject: Re: Visual Trefunge - 02 To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1119810208-1039043868=:69870" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mattycarr_uk@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --0-1119810208-1039043868=:69870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hehe, thanks. :D --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs --0-1119810208-1039043868=:69870 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

hehe, thanks. :D


With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs
--0-1119810208-1039043868=:69870-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Dec 05 20:59:38 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18K1DP-000F2k-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 20:59:15 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 05 Dec 2002 20:59:08 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18K1CN-000F2a-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 20:58:11 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 05 Dec 2002 20:58:03 +0200 (EET) Received: from relay-5v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.110]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18K1CE-000F2U-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 20:58:02 +0200 Received: from club-internet.fr (lcbv2-1-20.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.12.20]) by relay-5v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA62A170A for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:58:05 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3DEFA1AC.79776EAE@club-internet.fr> Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 19:57:48 +0100 From: Laurent Vogel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [fromage] 99 bottles of beer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Milo van Handel wrote: > The point is that most of us do not periodically check > http://99-bottles-of-beer.ls-la.net/, but are still interested > in 99 bottles of beer programs for esoteric languages. Fine, so here is a first sample... I can send a commented version too if anybody's interested. I can also provide a (limited) fromage debugger. Laurent ----- Fromage version of ninety nine bottles of beer Laurent Vogel lvogel DOT free DOT fr Fromage available at www DOT mypenguin DOT de SLASH prg >>>>>>>>>>:>>>:>:>>>:>:>:<<<<<<<<<{:[>:[>:[>:[<<<<<<:>>>>>>]:<]:<]: <]:<<<:[:>>>[<<<<<<:>>>>>>]>[<<<<<<:>>>>>>]>[<<<<<<:>>>>>>]>[<<<<<< :>>>>>>]<<<<<<<<<<:<:>>>>>>:<:[:]<:[:]<:[:]<:[:]<:<:>>>>>]>>>:[>:[> :[>:[>:[>:[>:[>:[>>>>>:<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<:>>>:>:>:>>:<<<<<<:>>>> >:>:<<<<<<<:>>>:>:>:>:>:<<<<<<<:>>>:>:>>:>:<<:>>:<<<<<:>:>:>>:>:<<< <<:>>:>:>:>:<<<<<<<:>:>>>:>>:><:>>>>>>>>>>]:<]:<]:<]:<]:<]:<]:<]:<< <:[:>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<<<<:>>>>>>>>>>]>[<<<<<<<<<<:>>>>>>>>>>]>[<<<<<<< <<<:>>>>>>>>>>]>[<<<<<<<<<<:>>>>>>>>>>]<<<<<<<<<<<<<<:<:>>>>>>:<:[: ]<:[:]<:[:]<:[:]<:<:>>>>>]><<<<<<:>>>>>>:<<<<<<<:>>>>>:>>:<<<<:>:>> :>:<<<<<:>:>>:>:>::<<<<<:>:>>>>:<<<<:>>>:>:<<<<<<<:>:>>>:>>:>>>:[>: [>:[>:[>:[>:[>:[>[<<<<<<<<<<:>>>>>>>>>>]<]:<]:<]:<]:<]:<]:<]:<<<:[: ><<<<<<<:>:>:>>>:>:>:<<<<<<<:>:>:>>>:>:><]><<<<<<:>>>>>>:<<<<<<<:>> >:>:>:>:>:<<<<:>>>:>:<<<<<<<:>>>>:>:>>:<<<<<<<:>>>>>:>>:<<<:>:>:>:: <<<<<:>>:>:>:>:<<<<<<<:>:>:>>>:>>>>>>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<:>>>>>> :<<<<<<<:>>>:>:>:>:>:<:>:<<<<<<<:>>>:>:>:>>:<<<<<<<:>>:>>:>>>:<<<<< :>:>:>>>:<<<<:>:>>:>:<<<<<<<:>>>>:>>:>:<<<<<<<:>>:>>:>:>:>:<<<<<:>> :>:>>:<<<<:>:>>:>::<<<<<<<:>:>>:>:>>>>>>>>>>>>>]>>>[:>>:<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<:>>:>:>:>>:<<<<<<:>>>:>>>::<<<<:>>:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>]<[:>:< <<:<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<:>>:>:>:>>:<<<<<<:>>>:>>>:<<<<<<<:>>:>:>:>:>>:<< <<<<:>:>>:>>:>:<<<<:>>:>>:<<<<:>:>:>>:<<<<<<<:>>>>:>>:>:<<<<<<<:>>> :>:>:>:>:<:>:<<<<:>>:>:>:<<<<<<<:>>>>:>>:>:<<<<<<<:>>>>:>>>:<<<<:>> :>:>:<<<<<:>:>>>>:<<<<<:>:>>>:>:<<<<<<<:>>>>>:>>:<<<<:>:>>>:<<<<<<< :>>:>>>>>:<<<<<:>>>>:>:<<<<<:>>>:>>::<<<<<<<:>>:>>>:>:>:<<<<<<<:>>> :>>>:>:<<<<<:>:>:>>:>:<<<<<<<:>>:>>:>>>:<<<<<<<:>>>>>>:>:<<<<<:>>>: >:>:<<<<<:>:>:>>:>:<<<<<:>:>>:>>:<<<<<:>:>>:>:>:<<<<:>>:>>:<<<<<<<: >>>:>>>>:<<<<<<:>>>:>:>>:<<<<:>>:>>>>>>>>>>>:[<:[<:[<:[>:>:><<<<:[< :[<:[<:>]>]>]>]>]>]>]>>>]<[:<:>>:<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<:>>:>:>>>:<<<<<< :>>>:>:>>:<<<<:>>:>>>>>>>>>>>>>]>>>>[:<<<<:>>>>]<[(]<<<<<<<<<<<<}): -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Dec 05 21:04:14 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18K1IB-000F6s-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:04:11 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:04:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18K1Hx-000F6l-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:03:57 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:03:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from relay-1v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.112]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18K1Hp-000F6f-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:03:49 +0200 Received: from club-internet.fr (lcbv2-1-20.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.12.20]) by relay-1v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211C817C7 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:03:27 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3DEFA30A.82D828C8@club-internet.fr> Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 20:03:38 +0100 From: Laurent Vogel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [sorta] 99 bottles of beer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc and here is the sorta version. Laurent ----- [ sorta version of 99 bottles of beer ]ld [ Laurent Vogel, http://lvogel.free.fr ]ld [" bottle"TD1_+=s" of beer"T$ld`ldD]:p[" on the wall"1STD]:w[""`ldD=a]:n [","=w#=p"."#=p"Take one down, pass it around,"`ldd1_+DD"."=w#=p=n]:a99D ["s"T]:sD=a"."2D=w"No more"=p -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Dec 05 21:09:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18K1Ne-000FAk-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:09:51 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:09:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18K1NN-000FAc-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:09:33 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:09:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from relay-4v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.115]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18K1NF-000FAW-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:09:25 +0200 Received: from club-internet.fr (lcbv2-1-20.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.12.20]) by relay-4v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 070E71714 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:09:23 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3DEFA45A.110920A@club-internet.fr> Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 20:09:14 +0100 From: Laurent Vogel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [true] 99 bottles of beer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc And here is a version in true. Well, this version is not that much different from the sorta version... The SIMPLE version is quite similar too so I won't post it to avoid bothering the distinguished audience. note that the first two lines are part of the code; they can safely be removed, but they cannot saefly be altered... Laurent ------ true version of 99 bottles of beer Laurent Vogel http://lvogel.free.fr [,$.][,"No more".]["s".][$0=$7] [3; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:22:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3DEFA751.84F4ECDD@club-internet.fr> Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 20:21:53 +0100 From: Laurent Vogel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [unlambda] 99 bottles of beer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc The last post for tonight will be the Unlambda version. The careful reader will immediately see that this version uses a similar method similar to the _code version I posted earlier, i.e. calling p(n) for digit n being 8,7,6,5,4,3,2... I made some attempt to reduce the code size, but it can probably be still reduced... As for the fromage version I can provide a commented version if requested. And as for the fromage version a part of the fun is finding the right number of columns to obtain a nice rectangle format :-) Laurent ------------ # Unlambda version of 99 bottles of beer # Laurent Vogel, http://lvogel.free.fr ````s``s``si`kk``s``s`ks``s`k`s`k``s``si`k`ki`kkk`k``s``s`ksk`k.9``s``s``s ``si`k`ki`kk`k`d`.9.1``s``s``s``si`k`ki`kk`k`d`.9.0``s``s``si`kk``s``s`k`s ``s`ks``s``s`ksk`k`s`k.9``s``s`ks``s`k`s`ks``s``s`ks``s`kk``s`ks``s`k`s`k` `si`kkk`k``s``s`ks``s`kk``s`ksk`k``s`k`s``s`kskk`k``s``s`ks``s``s`ksk`k`s` k.1``s``s`ksk`k`s`k.0``s``si`k`ki`kk``s``s``s`k`s``si`k``s`k.9.1``s``s`ks` `s``s`ks``s`k`s`k``si`kkk`k``s``s`ksk`k``s``s`ksk`k.1`k``s``si`k``s`k.1.1` `si`k``s`k.0.1``s``si`k`ki`kk``s``s``s``si`k`ki`kk`k.9``s``s``si`kk``s``s` ks``s`k`s`k``s``si`k`ki`kkk`ki``s`k``s`kr``s`k..``s``s``si`k`ki`kk``s``s`` si`kk`k`ki``s`k.s``s``s``si`kk`kk``s`k`d`.r`.o`.m`. `.o`.N.e``s``s``si`k`k i`k`ki``s``s``si`kk`k`ki``s``s``si`kk`kk``s`k.1``s`kr``s`k.,``s``s``si`k`k i`kk``s``s``si`kk`k`ki``s``s``si`kk`kk``s`k.1``s`kr``s`kr``s`k..``s``s``si `k`ki`kk``s``s``si`kk`k`ki``s``s``si`kk`kk``s`k.1`ki``s``si`k`ki`k`ki```s` `s``si`kk``s``s``si`kk``si`k`ki``s`k``s``s`ks``s`k`s`k``s``si`k`ki`k`kik`` s``s`ks``s`k`s`k``s``si`kk`k`kik``s`k`s`k.s``s``s`ks``s`k`s`k``s``si`kk`kk k``s`k`si``s`k`s`kr``s`k`s`k.,``s``s`ks``s`k`s`k``s``si`k`ki`kkk``s``s`ks` `s`k`s`k``s``si`kk`k`kik``s`k`s`k.s``s``s`ks``s`k`s`k``s``si`kk`kkk``s`k`s i``s`k`s`kr``s`k`s`kr``s`k`s`k.,``s``s`ks``s`k`s`k``s``si`k`ki`kkk``s``s`k s``s`k`s`k``s``si`kk`k`kik``s`k`s`k.s``s``s`ks``s`k`s`k``s``si`kk`kkk`k``s i`ki``si`k`ki``s``s`k``s``s``si`k`ki`k`ki``s``s``si`kk`k`ki``s`k.s``s``s`` si`kk`kk``s`k.9``s`k.9``s`kr``s`k.,``s``s``si`k`ki`kk``s``s``si`kk`k`ki``s `k.s``s``s``si`kk`kk``s`k.9``s`k.9`ki``si`k`ki`k``s``si`k.8``s``si`k.7``s` `si`k.6``s``si`k.5``s``si`k.4``s``si`k.3``si`k.2```s``si``s``si``s``si`k`d `.,`.d`.n`.u`.o`.r`.a`. `.t`.i`. `.s`.s`.a`.p`. `.,`.n`.w`.o`.d`. `.e`.n` .o`. `.e`.k`.a`.T`rr`k`d`.l`.a`.w`. `.e`.h`.t`. `.n`.o`. .l``s``si`k`d`.e` .e`.b`. `.f`.o`. .r`k`d`.l`.t`.t`.o`.b`. .ei``s`k`s``s`ks``s`k`sik``s`kkki -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 06 12:42:33 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KFw2-000GdW-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:42:18 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:42:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KFvL-000GdH-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:41:35 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:41:27 +0200 (EET) Received: from [213.181.64.36] (helo=ab17c2297.com) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KFvB-000Gd9-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:41:26 +0200 From: "MIKE KOFI" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:53:35 +0100 Subject: [lang] REPLY NEEDED X-Priority: 1 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6900 DM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mikekofi@ecplaza.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mikekofi@ecplaza.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc ASSISTANCE WE ARE MEMBERS OF A SPECIAL COMMITTEE FOR BUDGET AND PLANNING OF THE NIGERIA NATIONAL PETROLEUM CORPORATION =28NNPC=29IN WEST AFRICA=2E THIS COMMITTEE IS PRINCIPALLY CONCERNED WITH CONTRACT AWARDS AND APPROVAL=2E WITH OUR POSITIONS=2C WE HAVE SUCCESSFULLY SECURED FOR OURSELVES THE SUM OF THIRTHY ONE MILLION=2C FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND UNITED STATES DOLLARS =28US$31=2E5M=29=2E THIS AMOUNT WAS CAREFULLY MANIPULATED BY OVER-INVOICING OF AN OLD CONTRACT=2E BASED ON INFORMATION GATHERED ABOUT YOU=2C WE BELIEVE YOU WOULD BE IN A POSITION TO HELP US IN TRANSFERING THIS FUND =28US$31=2E5M=29 INTO A SAFE ACCOUNT=2E IT HAS BEEN AGREED THAT THE OWNER OF THE ACCOUNT WILL BE COMPENSATED WITH 30% OF THE REMITTED FUNDS=2C WHILE WE KEEP 60% AS THE INITIATORS AND 10% WILL BE SET ASIDE TO OFFSET EXPENSES AND PAY THE NECESSARY TAXES=2EWE INTEND TO USE PART OF OUR OWN SHARE TO IMPORT FROM YOUR COUNTRY AGRICULTURAL AND CONSTRUCTION MACHINERY=2E THIS IS BECAUSE THE PRESENT GOVERNMENT OF MY COUNTRY IS EMPHASISING ON PROVIDING FOOD AND HOUSING FOR ALL ITS CITIZENS BEFORE THE NEXT ELECTION=2E HENCE=2C AGRICULTURAL AND CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT ARE IN HIGH DEMAND OVER HERE=2E WE SHALL ALSO NEED YOUR ASSISTANCE IN THIS REGARD ON A COMMISSION TO BE AGREED UPON WHEN WE FINALLY MEET=2E ALL MODALITIES OF THIS TRANSACTION HAVE BEEN CAREFULLY WORKED OUT AND ONCE STARTED WILL NOT TAKE MORE THAN SEVEN =287=29 WORKING DAYS=2C WITH YOUR FULL SUPPORT=2E THIS TRANSACTION IS 100% RISK FREE=2E MOREOVER=2C WE SHALL NEED THE FOLLOWING FROM YOU TO ENABLE US BEGIN THE TRANSACTION FORMALLY=2E THEY ARE=3B YOUR FULL NAME AND ADDRESS OR YOUR COMPANY NAME=2C ADDRESS AND TELEPHONE=2FFAX NUMBERS=2C YOUR BANKERS NAME AND ADDRESS=2C YOUR ACCOUNT NUMBER AND NAME=2E THIS INFORMATION WILL BE USED ALONGSIDE OTHER VITAL DOCUMENTS OVER HERE IN PREPARING THE NECESSARY APPLICATION FOR PAYMENT TO THE CONCERNED QUARTERS WHERE PAYMENT APPROVALS WOULD BE SECURED IN FAVOUR OF YOUR COMPANY FOR THE PAYMENT OF OUR FUND=28US$31=2E5M=29 INTO YOUR NOMINATED ACCOUNT FOR US ALL=2E BY OUR APPLICATION=2C IT WILL BE ASSUMED THAT THIS SUM IS BEING REQUESTED AS PAYMENT=2C WHICH IS LONG-OUTSTANDING=2C FOR A CONTRACT=2C WE SHALL CLAIM WITH OUR POSITION=2C YOU OR YOUR COMPANY EXECUTED FOR =28NNPC=29 SOMETIME IN 1997=2E HENCE=2C WE SHALL FOLLOW ALL THE LEGAL OFFICIAL PROTOCOLS USUALLY OBSERVED BY FOREIGN CONTRACTORS WHENEVER THEY ARE DEMANDING PAYMENT FOR CONTRACTS EXECUTED FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF MY COUNTRY=2E FURTHERMORE=2C IMMEDIATELY THE FINAL APPROVAL IS GRANTED=2C THE FUND WILL BE TRANSFERRED INTO YOUR ACCOUNT WITHIN 72 HOURS=2C BY WHICH TIME MY PARTNERS AND I WILL BE IN YOUR COUNTRY FOR THE FINAL DISBURSEMENT IN THE RATIO ALREADY SPELT OUT TO YOU=2E PLEASE=2C YOU SHOULD ENDEAVOUR TO GIVE US AN ACCOUNT WHICH YOU HAVE ABSOLUTE CONTROL OVER=2E THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE WOULD NOT WANT A SITUATION WHEN THE MONEY IS IN THE ACCOUNT=2C YOU NOW TELL US YOU WOULD NEED TO BE AUTHORISED BY ANOTHER PERSON BEFORE WE CAN HAVE OUR OWN SHARE=2E YOU WILL NOT BE REQUIRED TO TRAVEL OUT OF YOUR COUNTRY=2C ME AND MY PARTNERS=2C WE TRAVEL DOWN TO YOUR COUNTRY FOR THE DISBURSEMENT OF THE FUND=2C AFTER THE FINAL TRANSACTION=2E WE WILL ALSO DISCUSS ABOUT OIL BUSINEES IN MY COUNTRY WHEN WE COME DOWN OVER THERE=2E BECAUSE WE WOULD LIKE TO ESTABLISH A JOINT BUSINESS WITH YOU=2E THAT IS WE WILL USE YOUR NAME TO REGISTER AND INCORPORATE AN OIL COMPANY IN MY COUNTRY=2E BESIDES=2C ON THE COMPLETION OF THIS TRANSFER=2C ALL DOCUMENTS USED FOR THE PURPOSE WILL BE WITHDRAWN FROM THE QUARTERS THEY ARE SUBMITTED BY OUR CONTACTS IN THESE OFFICES AND DESTROYED=2C THEREAFTER=2E SO=2C THERE WILL NOT BE ANY PROBLEM ARISING FROM THIS TRANSACTION NOW OR IN THE FUTURE=2E IF THIS PROPOSAL SATISFIES YOU=2C PLEASE REACH US ONLY BY EMAIL FOR MORE INFORMATION=2E PLEASE=2C TREAT AS URGENT AND VERY IMPORTANT=2E YOURS FAITHFULLY=2C DR=2EMIKE KOFI=2E -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 06 13:46:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KGvr-000Gn9-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:46:11 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:46:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KGvP-000Gn1-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:45:43 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:45:35 +0200 (EET) Received: from 93.208-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be ([194.78.208.93] helo=decis.be) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KGvH-000Gmv-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:45:35 +0200 Received: from decis.be ([192.168.0.20]) by decis.be ([194.78.208.93]) with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v6.5.0.R) for ; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:45:26 +0100 Message-ID: <3DF08FB1.36A1433B@decis.be> Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:53:21 +0100 From: Frederic van der Plancke Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. (was Re: REPLY NEEDED) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-Sender: fplancke@decis.be X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. I wonder what we can do against these guys... Frédéric vdP MIKE KOFI wrote: > > > ASSISTANCE -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 06 15:12:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KIHQ-000Gxe-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:12:32 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:12:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KIGs-000GxW-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:11:58 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:11:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KIGj-000GxP-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:11:49 +0200 Received: from gin.bar (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id gB6E6cb27555 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:06:41 +0200 Received: from localhost (andreou@localhost) by gin.bar (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id gB6F49L00454 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:04:09 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: gin.bar: andreou owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:04:06 +0000 (GMT) From: "Al. Andreou" X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] Re: Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. (was Re: REPLY NEEDED) In-Reply-To: <3DF08FB1.36A1433B@decis.be> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. > I wonder what we can do against these guys... One solution includes nuclear weapons. -- Al. Andreou | http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | http://hydra.hellug.gr/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 06 15:17:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KILn-000H1V-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:17:03 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:16:56 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KILe-000H1B-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:16:54 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:16:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.rib.de ([213.68.181.228]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KILW-000H0e-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:16:46 +0200 Received: from 172.16.17.6 by mail.rib.de ([213.68.181.228] running VPOP3) with ESMTP for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:16:04 +0100 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:16:11 +0100 From: Carsten Kuckuk X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1929778000.20021206141611@kuckuk.com> To: "Al. Andreou" Subject: [lang] Re: Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. (was Re: REPLY NEEDED) In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ck@kuckuk.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ck@kuckuk.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >> Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. >> I wonder what we can do against these guys... Doesn't the War on Terror include Spam? -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 06 15:32:54 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KIb5-000H6X-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:32:51 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:32:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KIal-000H6Q-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:32:31 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:32:23 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.engelsinfo.de ([212.6.209.242] helo=mail.kabeldirekt.de) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KIac-000H6K-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:32:23 +0200 Received: from morgoth (morgoth [212.6.209.231]) by mail.kabeldirekt.de (8.12.6/8.11.3/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with ESMTP id gB6DWFHT021907 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:32:17 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" From: "Rafal M. Sulejman" Organization: none To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [OT]Re: Re: Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. (was Re: REPLY NEEDED) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:32:15 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <1929778000.20021206141611@kuckuk.com> In-Reply-To: <1929778000.20021206141611@kuckuk.com> X-Default-Editor: vim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200212061432.15695.rafal@engelsinfo.de> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rafal@engelsinfo.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rafal@engelsinfo.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc * Carsten Kuckuk [Friday 06 December 2002 14:16] : > >> Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. > >> I wonder what we can do against these guys... Hire (spam)assassin[1]. > Doesn't the War on Terror include Spam? au contraire ;) Links: [1] http://spamassassin.org -- # . . . | Rafal M. Sulejman /"\ . . # . | \ / # # . . | ASCII Ribbon Campaign against HTML mail X . . . . | / \ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 06 15:41:48 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KIji-000HAo-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:41:46 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:41:39 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KIjQ-000HAh-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:41:28 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:41:20 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.rib.de ([213.68.181.228]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KIjI-000HAZ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:41:20 +0200 Received: from 172.16.17.6 by mail.rib.de ([213.68.181.228] running VPOP3) with ESMTP for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:37:10 +0100 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:37:17 +0100 From: Carsten Kuckuk X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <011044375.20021206143717@kuckuk.com> To: "Rafal M. Sulejman" Subject: [lang] Re: [OT]Re: Re: Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. (was Re: REPLY NEEDED) In-Reply-To: <200212061432.15695.rafal@engelsinfo.de> References: <1929778000.20021206141611@kuckuk.com> <200212061432.15695.rafal@engelsinfo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ck@kuckuk.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ck@kuckuk.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc For some time I've been thinking it would be a nice exercise to write a production system for the Dada Engine (http://dev.null.org/dadaengine/) to create Nigerian-style spam, just similar to the Postmodernism Generator (http://www.elsewhere.org/cgi-bin/postmodern/) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 06 17:45:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KKex-000HTu-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 17:44:59 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 17:44:52 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KKeU-000HTm-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 17:44:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 17:44:22 +0200 (EET) Received: from [65.162.43.69] (helo=luminet.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KKeL-000HTg-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 17:44:22 +0200 Received: (from dseaman@localhost) by localhost (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00137 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:00:33 -0600 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:00:33 -0600 From: David Seaman Message-Id: <200212061600.KAA00137@luminet.net> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [OT]Re: Re: Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. (was Re: REPLY NEEDED) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dseaman@luminet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dseaman@luminet.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > For some time I've been thinking it would be a nice exercise to write > a production system for the Dada Engine > (http://dev.null.org/dadaengine/) to create Nigerian-style spam, just > similar to the Postmodernism Generator > (http://www.elsewhere.org/cgi-bin/postmodern/) How about making it generate responses to Nigerian-style spam? You could get ideas from http://www.geocities.com/scamjokepage. Then have everybody on the list flood the guy with requests for information and fake account numbers. David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 06 21:58:33 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KOc2-000Ht9-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:58:14 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:58:07 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KObA-000Hsx-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:57:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:57:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtp1.itas.net ([142.176.17.242] helo=bridge3.itas.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KOb1-000Hsr-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:57:11 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (islandtelecom249-16.islandtelecom.com [142.177.249.16]) by bridge3.itas.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04420 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 19:55:45 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Stephen Mosher Organization: Hostworks To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. (was Re: REPLY NEEDED) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:57:02 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1 References: <3DF08FB1.36A1433B@decis.be> In-Reply-To: <3DF08FB1.36A1433B@decis.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200212061457.02862.smosher@hostworks.ca> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: smosher@hostworks.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: smosher@hostworks.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Here I was thinking that "REPLY NEEDED" was a new esoteric programming=20 language. J/K, but If I had more time I'd write an interpreter for this "source fil= e."=20 Sounds like an interesting game, though. On December 6, 2002 06:53 am, you wrote: > Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. > I wonder what we can do against these guys... > > Fr=E9d=E9ric vdP > > MIKE KOFI wrote: > > ASSISTANCE -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 06 23:37:25 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KQ9w-000IF3-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 23:37:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 23:37:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KQ9L-000IEw-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 23:36:43 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 23:36:35 +0200 (EET) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KQ9D-000IEq-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 23:36:35 +0200 Received: from localhost (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB6LaVO27537 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:36:33 -0700 From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [OT]Re: Re: Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. (was Re: REPLY NEEDED) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:36:31 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200212061432.15695.rafal@engelsinfo.de> <011044375.20021206143717@kuckuk.com> In-Reply-To: <011044375.20021206143717@kuckuk.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200212061436.31294.cbiffle@safety.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Friday 06 December 2002 06:37 am, you wrote: > For some time I've been thinking it would be a nice exercise to write > a production system for the Dada Engine > (http://dev.null.org/dadaengine/) to create Nigerian-style spam, just > similar to the Postmodernism Generator > (http://www.elsewhere.org/cgi-bin/postmodern/) Sure, sure...but will it be Turing-complete? -Cliff -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Dec 07 03:13:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KTX6-000Imv-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 03:13:28 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 03:13:21 +0200 (EET) Received: from c-24-125-6-155.va.client2.attbi.com ([24.125.6.155] helo=wavelet.ath.cx ident=mail) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KTWy-000Imp-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 03:13:20 +0200 Received: from matt by wavelet.ath.cx with local (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18KTWE-0004O4-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 20:12:34 -0500 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 20:12:34 -0500 From: Matthew Wright To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: [lang] Re: [OT]Re: Re: Nigeria hoax. No reply needed. (was Re: REPLY NEEDED) Message-ID: <20021207011234.GA12925@wavelet.ath.cx> Reply-To: Matthew Wright References: <200212061600.KAA00137@luminet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200212061600.KAA00137@luminet.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: matt@wavelet.ath.cx Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Well, emacs' doctor provides responses that are at least more coherent than the original message - even though that's not saying much! Some highlights: WITH OUR POSITIONS, WE HAVE SUCCESSFULLY SECURED FOR OURSELVES THE SUM OF THIRTHY ONE MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND UNITED STATES DOLLARS (US$31.5M). Maybe your plans have something to do with this. BASED ON INFORMATION GATHERED ABOUT YOU, WE BELIEVE YOU WOULD BE IN A POSITION TO HELP US IN TRANSFERING THIS FUND (US$31.5M) INTO A SAFE ACCOUNT. Are you afraid of that? WE INTEND TO USE PART OF OUR OWN SHARE TO IMPORT FROM YOUR COUNTRY AGRICULTURAL AND CONSTRUCTION MACHINERY. How do you reconcile the people you hang around with? THIS IS BECAUSE THE PRESENT GOVERNMENT OF MY COUNTRY IS EMPHASISING ON PROVIDING FOOD AND HOUSING FOR ALL ITS CITIZENS BEFORE THE NEXT ELECTION. HENCE, AGRICULTURAL AND CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT ARE IN HIGH DEMAND OVER HERE. Do you get high often? WE SHALL ALSO NEED YOUR ASSISTANCE IN THIS REGARD ON A COMMISSION TO BE AGREED UPON WHEN WE FINALLY MEET. What makes you believe that? THIS TRANSACTION IS 100% RISK FREE. Perhaps this has something to do with problems at school? THIS INFORMATION WILL BE USED ALONGSIDE OTHER VITAL DOCUMENTS OVER HERE IN PREPARING THE NECESSARY APPLICATION FOR PAYMENT TO THE CONCERNED QUARTERS WHERE PAYMENT APPROVALS WOULD BE SECURED IN FAVOUR OF YOUR COMPANY FOR THE PAYMENT OF OUR FUND(US$31.5M) INTO YOUR NOMINATED ACCOUNT FOR US ALL. You mentioned that you were high? It probably would be easy to do something with procmail and some doctor-type program to automatically reply to spam like this... any volunteers? :) Matt On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 10:00:33AM -0600, David Seaman wrote: > > > > For some time I've been thinking it would be a nice exercise to write > > a production system for the Dada Engine > > (http://dev.null.org/dadaengine/) to create Nigerian-style spam, just > > similar to the Postmodernism Generator > > (http://www.elsewhere.org/cgi-bin/postmodern/) > > How about making it generate responses to Nigerian-style spam? > You could get ideas from http://www.geocities.com/scamjokepage. > Then have everybody on the list flood the guy with requests for > information and fake account numbers. > > David > > -- > To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: > unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] > unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] > > > From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Dec 07 22:04:01 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KlAr-000L05-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:03:41 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:03:34 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Kl9p-000Kzx-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:02:37 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:02:29 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Kl9f-000Kzr-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:02:28 +0200 Received: (qmail 5340 invoked by uid 1001); 7 Dec 2002 19:58:21 -0000 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:58:21 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: referential transparency Message-Id: <20021207135821.6fd8e35d.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: References: <20020315165412.5c6676fe.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc (ancient...history...irrelevant...but...cannot resist urge...to... clarify self...arrrrrh) On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:37:26 +0200 (EET) Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Chris Pressey wrote: > > inheritance, while ignoring interface. Similarly with functional, > > lazy evaluation and referential transparency make people go 'wow' > > while they quite possibly ignore the more basic benefits of functional > > programming, like single-assignment (I'll address that in particular > > later on) > > Hmm, I see single-assignment as a direct result of referential > transparency. But the difference is, of course, caused by our > terminologies. Without referential transparency, however, > single-assignment is more like a gesture than an actual property of > language, because you can then write programs that basically use > recursion only to loop and perform calculation by (for example, in the > case of Erlang) sending and receiving messages. In the same way strong typing is a "gesture" of C, sure. > By the way, we really seem to have deep terminological differences. You > talk about functional programs not having "state". But of course they do > - that's what data structures contain! You talk about functional > programs not changing state. But they do - by mapping old states to new > ones. There's nothing in the essence of functional programming that > somehow disagrees with state. Sorry for truncating, I appear to have meant "mutable state" - in the dialect of English I use, it's awkward to describe an immutable thing as having state. That is, saying "the state of X is Y" almost universally implies that the state of X can change and that X is therefore mutable. > Apparently you haven't really looked into Haskell's I/O model, because > you think it's that hard to accommodate I/O in a functional, > referentially transparent framework. Sort of, but not quite. Returning to the forest from the trees, my point has always been more along the lines of this: I/O is, by definition, an intentional *violation* of scope. Data are "put in" and "put out" of the scope. I can't find any way to have this mesh cleanly with RT, because RT is by definition an intentional *retention* of scope. Isn't it? Can you think of a way to reconcile these two conceptually (w/o involving Haskell or any other language in the explanation)? I can't. > > a flush as an operation. Isn't it somewhat hypocritical to claim that > > one style of programming is a "higher" level of abstraction than > > another, but at the same time they're "just" different models and any > > examination of how a model works is an 'ontological question'? Try as > > I might I cannot > > Huh? You can also look at the world on different levels of abstraction, > like the particle level or the object/property level, but that does not > tell you anything of how the world "really" is. So yes: how the world > (or some model) really works is a question of free choice. I wasn't talking about how something "really" works, though; I think we can agree that that's probably unknowable. I'm talking about abstraction, which is, by definition, a taking-away. The less that is taken away, the more accurate predictions based on that model will be, and the "realer" that model is - e.g. Einstein vs Newton. > > believe the universe is stateless, because quite obviously at any > > given time I can describe it's state, which may change at any given > > time under circumstances far beyond my control or even my > > comprehension. The only > > I must point out that the above is a gross contradiction - how can you > describe something which changes beyond your comprehension? Our sun is yellow; I don't know exactly how it works, but it's yellow. Soon (cosmologically speaking) it'll change to a different colour, in a manner beyond my comprehension, but that doesn't stop me from describing it. > But I'll > still try to explain how you can see the world as a purely functional > network (not as stateless). Thisnk the world comprises of lists of > states for all objects in the world. Then the objects read each other's > states and produce new states in their own list, depending on this > input. You can't handle the whole world's state for two reasons (in > addition to limited processing capabilities): first, the world's state > might depend on your observations (this is a property of quantum > mechanics the concurrent model has hard time explaining); second, some > object's state might be totally independent of you observation, so that > you can never know how far the actual object has gone - you can only > read its "track". This is equal to people not being able to test some > object's properties. In my view, functional network explains the world > far better than concurrency... I fail to see how any of this implies any aspect of "functional", though. You mention "state", presumably w/o the connotation of mutability that I'm used to hearing when I hear "state", but then you say "produce new states in their own list" - which means their lists are mutable - or that every object is continually being replaced by an entirely new object+list derived from it - which certainly might be the case, but at the very least it seems to introduce a dramatic identity overhead, doesn't it? Surely my cat is still my cat, even if every millisecond she tail-recursively becomes cat'. History appears to have no objective existence, so I wonder what the descriptive use of keeping around old identities of ever-being-replaced-by-new objects would be...? > > way I can believe it's stateless is if I consciously ignore its state > > (which is what we're doing with functional programming.) This is what > > abstraction is all about, consciously ignoring things. And while I > > With functional abstraction, you're actually adding information about > the world, because you can to some extent recover the world's past > state. So I'm not ignoring things - all the information is there, it's > just in a different format. You seem to be ignoring the fact that the world shows few if any signs of behaving like this. The question I have is: *why* model something that can't be shown to exist (in this case, an objective past?) Besides the usual esolanging excuse of it being entertaining, o' course ;) -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Dec 07 22:38:12 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Kli3-000L5j-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:37:59 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:37:52 +0200 (EET) Received: from web40509.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.78.126]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Klhv-000L5d-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:37:51 +0200 Message-ID: <20021207203719.31790.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.60.47.103] by web40509.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 20:37:19 GMT Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 20:37:19 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mathew=20Carr?= Subject: Topology of a 3d language To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <20021207135821.6fd8e35d.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-487339640-1039293439=:30502" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mattycarr_uk@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --0-487339640-1039293439=:30502 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just thought... If Unefunge can be represented as a ring. (You can move in two directions and get back to the start) And Befunge can be represented as a torus (A ring with the cross section of a ring) Would Trefunge be represented as a circle of toruses? A ring of rings with the cross sections of rings? --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs --0-487339640-1039293439=:30502 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I just thought...

If Unefunge can be represented as a ring. (You can move in two directions and get back to the start)

And Befunge can be represented as a torus (A ring with the cross section of a ring)

Would Trefunge be represented as a circle of toruses? A ring of rings with the cross sections of rings?


With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs
--0-487339640-1039293439=:30502-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Dec 07 22:46:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KlqB-000L7t-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:46:23 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:46:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Klpt-000L7l-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:46:05 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:45:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Klpk-000L7f-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:45:56 +0200 Received: (qmail 5374 invoked by uid 1001); 7 Dec 2002 20:41:51 -0000 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:41:51 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: communicative power (was: Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ?) Message-Id: <20021207144151.2ef5295a.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: References: <3CAB52D6.67399DBE@dds.nl> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:22:01 -0500 (EST) John Colagioia wrote: > Oh, and Chris didn't like this, as I recall, because he wanted batch > processing represented. I insisted (and still insist) that batch is a > "less powerful" form of I/O, as any of these approaches can be used in > a batch, but the emulation cannot be done in the other direction. To clarify: I do like it, but I'd still like to see batch processing represented, if for no other reason than that noteworthy languages have used it as a concept, and that it doesn't interfere with computational capability. I'm not a fan of ignoring some properties just because they are less "powerful" than more interesting ones (e.g. sub-Turing-complete languages still deserve to have something said about them, however brief). Based on the exchange between John and Milo I'd say that the only real stumbling block is a simple, agreeable method for categorizing I/O based on it's "power." To this end I propose something like "multiplicity balls" like from those horrid OOD diagrams. A program (and/or all programs in some given language, which is what we're after here) may have zero, one, or many points of input, and may have zero, one, or many points of output. Many points of input and many points of output (many:many) represents the most powerful communications category, to which the bulk of John's categories apply. This is what you need to program Wumpus, as a "canonical" example. One:one represents batch processing. CGI scripts could be the "canonical" example here, perhaps? Zero:one represents something like a constant value generator (e.g. the perl program "print 5"); zero:many represents something more like a stock ticker. (I forsee someone picking this distinction apart; the important thing to realize is that there needs to be a way to demonstrate that the program is making computations *between* the many output points; if the program is a virtual black box this cannot be determined, but if we're allowed to see into the program (and why not?) it can.) *:zero represents that class that raises all those really interesting Platonic purity / Turing test issues: it's presumably computing something, but if I can't detect it, how do I know? I'm sure my coffee table is a brilliant philosopher, but... :) -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Dec 07 22:52:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Klvy-000LBu-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:52:22 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:52:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Klvi-000LBm-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:52:07 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:51:59 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Klva-000LBf-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 22:51:58 +0200 Received: (qmail 5381 invoked by uid 1001); 7 Dec 2002 20:47:53 -0000 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:47:53 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait Message-Id: <20021207144753.376a7bb9.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: <3D1B8818.AD6C3FAA@dds.nl> References: <3D1B8818.AD6C3FAA@dds.nl> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 23:48:08 +0200 Milo van Handel wrote: > Any compiler can be trivially turned into an interpreter by compiling to > a temporary file, running this temporary file, and deleting it again > (well, except if the program asks the operating system to kill its > parent, in which case the deletion can never take place). Some > interpreters really do work similarly, by first compiling the program to > in-memory byte code and then interpreting this byte code. A more accurate term for such a contrivance would be a 'JIT compiler', I think. Best known from the Java world, but it's been with us since FORTH, at least. > Conversely, any interpreter can be trivially turned into a compiler by > having the compiler output the interpreter with the program as a > compile-time constant. This is generally considered cheating, but > works. Again, I suggest that there is a more accurate term for that as well; in this case, it's a 'linker'. The classic way to make Befunge and Visual Basic executables, of course :) -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Dec 07 23:29:11 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KmV9-000LIh-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:28:43 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:28:36 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KmV1-000LIb-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:28:35 +0200 Received: (qmail 5411 invoked by uid 1001); 7 Dec 2002 21:24:30 -0000 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 15:24:30 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: Topology of a 3d language Message-Id: <20021207152430.6972249d.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: <20021207203719.31790.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021207135821.6fd8e35d.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <20021207203719.31790.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 20:37:19 +0000 (GMT) Mathew Carr wrote: > > I just thought... > If Unefunge can be represented as a ring. (You can move in two > directions and get back to the start) And Befunge can be represented as > a torus (A ring with the cross section of a ring) Would Trefunge be > represented as a circle of toruses? A ring of rings with the cross > sections of rings? Why not? A ring of rings of rings; you could probably call it a hypertorus if you wanted to sound knowledgable. I suspect Lahey-space isn't strictly toroidal, though. OOC, is it common practice on these lists to start a new thread by replying to the last message in some existing thread, or is there something funky with the way listar sets the In-Reply-To header? Going through my Esoteric folder, I noticed this 'chaining' of threads seems to happen an awful lot... -Chris From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Dec 07 23:32:47 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KmZ4-000LKj-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:32:46 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:32:39 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KmYx-000LKc-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:32:39 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:32:39 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KmYw-000LKW-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:32:38 +0200 Received: (qmail 5419 invoked by uid 1001); 7 Dec 2002 21:28:33 -0000 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 15:28:33 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Re: The kooks of sci.physics Message-Id: <20021207152833.09c63993.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:58:47 +0200 Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) wrote: > This was news to me, since I spend my days reading the de.* hierarchy of > newsgroups. And the german physics newsgroup is rather boring. However, > it seems the international newsgroups is bothered by a bunch of *pretty* > esoteric kooks. In any discussion of kooks it would be remiss to overlook Dr. Gene Ray. He is, after all, the wisest human ever. But you may be too damn evil to accept it. http://www.timecube.com/ -Chris From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Dec 07 23:58:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Kmxp-000LOC-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:58:21 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:58:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KmxO-000LO5-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:57:55 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:57:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KmxG-000LNz-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 23:57:46 +0200 Received: (qmail 5438 invoked by uid 1001); 7 Dec 2002 21:53:41 -0000 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 15:53:41 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [functional] Erlang - miscellaneous remarks Message-Id: <20021207155341.22a28dd7.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:18:07 +0200 (EET) Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > Now, Erlang's explicit concurrency lies somewhere between these two. It > is certainly closer to the OO model than the flow one, Try telling that to an Erlanger :) (most deem OO to be overrated - which, by and large, it is. Encapsulation is the most important; the other features of OO are pretty much icing on the cake.) > but the > concurrency semantics demand higher level of independence and > consistency from individual components, which I think is good. Good? Critical! :) > On the > other hand, explicit concurrency is even more heavy-weight than the > usual OO frameworks (from the design point of view), I disagree (actually, it depends on what you mean by heavy-weight.) Concurrency (that is, explicit concurrency) is fairly natural in the universe at large, so it tends to encourage models with a *higher* correlation to nature - and thus lighter in weight (weight being the 'artificalness' of the model.) One discrete real-world task <-> one process. At the very least, it means never having to write contrived polling and scheduling code, while retaining fine-grained control over concurrency compared to, say, join calculus, or Linda. > so it might be best > suited, after all, for applications that are really meant to be > distributed. Yep. :) But it's a good general purpose language too, I find. One other thing to note - elsewhere, I believe you mentioned that the 'normal' way of defining functions in Haskell and O'Caml is to use lambdas and currying. This is why I don't like them so much - it seems to be persuing highly compressed mathematical beauty at the cost of readability, which just *can't* be a good thing in a production environment. In Erlang it is nice to be able to make functional objects ('funs') and to be able to 'curry' them *when needed*, but it is also nice that this is considered the exception, rather than the rule. -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Dec 08 00:28:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KnR7-000LU1-00; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 00:28:37 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 08 Dec 2002 00:28:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KnQj-000LTs-00; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 00:28:13 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 08 Dec 2002 00:28:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18KnQa-000LTm-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 00:28:05 +0200 Received: (qmail 5463 invoked by uid 1001); 7 Dec 2002 22:23:59 -0000 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 16:23:59 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [tarpit] idea Message-Id: <20021207162359.2ed134b2.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I haven't had many ideas for esoteric languages lately - mostly I've been occupied writing merely arcane applications. But here's one. It looks like it's severely broken, but then, so is SMETANA, and if this can serve as raw meat for some refinement that is actually TC, then I've contributed something. The basic constraint is this. Design a language where the only datum that any given function can access is the call stack. The call stack contains information on what functions led up to calling the current function (and possibly the position within the calling function where they were called) - but no arguments or any other data. To demonstrate, I'll borrow a bit of FORTH syntax, namely : function-name instruction instruction instruction ... ; And for convenience, a word can contain spaces and other funky characters if it's quoted with '', and the main program is assumed to be implemented with a function called 'main'. First, to define primitives, it's important to note that they do not get pushed onto the call stack like a function would. Let's define a single primitive which pops a function name off the call stack, prints it a la your typical debugging output tool, and pushes it back onto the call stack. Now we can write Hello World thusly: : main 'Hello, world!' ; : 'Hello, world!' print ; Pathological... what if we want to do computation? Well, if we define 'add' to pop two function names off the call stack, sum them (treating them as integers,) and push the result back on the call stack, we get: : main 2 ; : 2 3 ; : 3 add ; : 5 print ; Again, fairly pathological, since we have to know the result before we write the code :) Although if in doubt we could do something like: : 4 print ; : 5 print ; : 6 print ; : 7 print ; etc, just to cover our asses. But this obviously isn't going to work for non-trivial cases. And that's pretty much where I hit a brick wall. The next logical step seems to be to be able to manipulate function names, e.g. pop two function names off the call stack, concatenate them, and push the result back on. But what if you want to prepend '_' to two different function names? The function '_' has to be able to call both of them, and they both have to call concat. I doubt this is feasible. But if someone has understood it this far and wants to try to find a way that doesn't immediately smack of 'cheating' - go for it! -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Dec 08 22:09:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18L7ju-000NaQ-00; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 22:09:22 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 08 Dec 2002 22:09:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from web40509.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.78.126]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18L7jl-000NaK-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 22:09:14 +0200 Message-ID: <20021208200841.87022.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.60.62.102] by web40509.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 20:08:41 GMT Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:08:41 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mathew=20Carr?= Subject: Re: Topology of a 3d language To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <20021207152430.6972249d.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-446203328-1039378121=:85456" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mattycarr_uk@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --0-446203328-1039378121=:85456 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nope... its just that nobody can remember the email for the mailing list. :D And Lahey space is weird and makes spheres out of toruses... Lahey space for trefunge would just be the cube, copied in every direction... but if you wanted to be precise it would be pinched at the corners and go in on itself. or something... Has anyone tried my Trefunge yet? Chris Pressey wrote:On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 20:37:19 +0000 (GMT) Mathew Carr wrote: > > I just thought... > If Unefunge can be represented as a ring. (You can move in two > directions and get back to the start) And Befunge can be represented as > a torus (A ring with the cross section of a ring) Would Trefunge be > represented as a circle of toruses? A ring of rings with the cross > sections of rings? Why not? A ring of rings of rings; you could probably call it a hypertorus if you wanted to sound knowledgable. I suspect Lahey-space isn't strictly toroidal, though. OOC, is it common practice on these lists to start a new thread by replying to the last message in some existing thread, or is there something funky with the way listar sets the In-Reply-To header? Going through my Esoteric folder, I noticed this 'chaining' of threads seems to happen an awful lot... -Chris ----------- from Matty Carr. http://www.genericzone.cjb.net --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs --0-446203328-1039378121=:85456 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Nope... its just that nobody can remember the email for the mailing list. :D

And Lahey space is weird and makes spheres out of toruses... Lahey space for trefunge would just be the cube, copied in every direction... but if you wanted to be precise it would be pinched at the corners and go in on itself. or something...

Has anyone tried my Trefunge yet?

 Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> wrote:

On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 20:37:19 +0000 (GMT)
Mathew Carr wrote:

>
> I just thought...
> If Unefunge can be represented as a ring. (You can move in two
> directions and get back to the start) And Befunge can be represented as
> a torus (A ring with the cross section of a ring) Would Trefunge be
> represented as a circle of toruses? A ring of rings with the cross
> sections of rings?

Why not? A ring of rings of rings; you could probably call it a
hypertorus if you wanted to sound knowledgable.

I suspect Lahey-space isn't strictly toroidal, though.

OOC, is it common practice on these lists to start a new thread by
replying to the last message in some existing thread, or is there
something funky with the way listar sets the In-Reply-To header? Going
through my Esoteric folder, I noticed this 'chaining' of threads seems to
happen an awful lot...

-Chris



-----------

from  Matty Carr. http://www.genericzone.cjb.net


With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs
--0-446203328-1039378121=:85456-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 09 04:12:50 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LDPM-000OU5-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 04:12:32 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 04:12:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LDPE-000OTz-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 04:12:25 +0200 Received: (qmail 266 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Dec 2002 01:08:13 -0000 Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 19:08:13 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: Topology of a 3d language Message-Id: <20021208190813.2887c068.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: <20021208200841.87022.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021207152430.6972249d.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <20021208200841.87022.qmail@web40509.mail.yahoo.com> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:08:41 +0000 (GMT) Mathew Carr wrote: > Has anyone tried my Trefunge yet? Word on the street is that it's lousy and bad. I haven't tried it myself. I don't see why I should run a binary executable that doesn't come with source code and whose license prevents me from reverse engineering it. Anything could be in there. -Chris From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 09 04:53:49 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LE39-000OXl-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 04:53:39 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 04:53:32 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LE31-000OXe-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 04:53:32 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 04:53:31 +0200 (EET) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LE30-000OXX-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 04:53:30 +0200 Received: from gin.bar (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id gB93mHb25913 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:48:18 +0200 Received: from localhost (andreou@localhost) by gin.bar (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id gB94r0O07398 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 04:53:00 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: gin.bar: andreou owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 04:52:57 +0000 (GMT) From: "Al. Andreou" X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [chat] Esolang IRC channel Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I figured, since there isn't any, I'd "set up" one at EFnet. So, join #esoterica (#esoteric was taken). I'll be glad to see you there, people. -- Al. Andreou | http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | http://hydra.hellug.gr/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 09 05:43:26 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LEp8-000Obo-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 05:43:14 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 05:43:07 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LEp1-000Obh-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 05:43:07 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 05:43:07 +0200 (EET) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd3mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LEp0-000Obb-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 05:43:07 +0200 Received: from pd6mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd6mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.217]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H6U00HIQ2BS91@l-daemon> for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 20:43:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from pn2ml2so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml2so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.146]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H6U00LNE2BSJ6@l-daemon> for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 20:43:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from shelter (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H6U0051A2BRDD@l-daemon> for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 20:43:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 11:39:43 -0800 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [chat] Re: Esolang IRC channel In-reply-to: To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20021208113943.4b185530.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 09 Dec 2002 04:52:57 +0000 (GMT) "Al. Andreou" wrote: > I figured, since there isn't any, I'd "set up" one at EFnet. > > So, join #esoterica (#esoteric was taken). I'll be glad to see you there, > people. I propose OPN (irc.freenode.net) other than EFnet, because for one, OPN is a much better network overall, ;) and there're simply more people on OPN who're actually interested in this kind of thing. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 09 06:09:26 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LFEL-000Oen-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:09:18 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:09:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LFEE-000Oeg-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:09:10 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:09:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LFED-000OeZ-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:09:09 +0200 Received: from gin.bar (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id gB953mb06641 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:03:51 +0200 Received: from localhost (andreou@localhost) by gin.bar (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id gB968Ie07538 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:08:18 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: gin.bar: andreou owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:08:17 +0000 (GMT) From: "Al. Andreou" X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [chat] Re: Esolang IRC channel In-Reply-To: <20021208113943.4b185530.ayzik@shaw.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > > I figured, since there isn't any, I'd "set up" one at EFnet. > > > > So, join #esoterica (#esoteric was taken). I'll be glad to see you there, > > people. > > I propose OPN (irc.freenode.net) other than EFnet, because for one, OPN is a > much better network overall, ;) and there're simply more people on OPN who're > actually interested in this kind of thing. OK, so now we can be found at OPN, #esoteric (it's ours!). Drop by, have fun, forget to drop out. -- Al. Andreou | http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | http://hydra.hellug.gr/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 09 07:42:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LGga-000OkO-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 07:42:32 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 07:42:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LGfZ-000OkF-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 07:41:29 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 07:41:22 +0200 (EET) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LGfR-000Ok9-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 07:41:21 +0200 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB95fHw28914; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:41:17 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:41:15 -0800 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi, friends-of-brainfuck@koeln.ccc.de, bfgolf@yahoogroups.com From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Brainfuck Golf 2: Sorting. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc The next Brainfuck Golf contest runs from now until the end of 12/23/02, GMT/UTC. The challenge is to write the shortest brainfuck sort program that: -follows the rules outlined at http://brainfuck.sourceforge.net/rules.html. -reads input which may consist of any nonnegative number of bytes with values in the range 1-255, terminated by a 0. -outputs the bytes read (excluding the final 0) in ascending order (obviously, preserving the length of the file and the counts of the individual characters). Then calculate your program's MD5 (for information see http://userpages.umbc.edu/~mabzug1/cs/md5/md5.html ) and submit the MD5 before the deadline to the Brainfuck Golf forum at http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=201037 along with your name/alias and the number of brainfuck commands you used. The actual source code should be submitted to the same forum after the deadline. Any questions should be posted there too. It accepts anonymous postings. Other little notes: -It might be a good idea to put comments in your code before calculating the MD5. A little paranoid, yes, but still possibly a good idea. -It is explicitly allowed to use published code as a starting point. -Good luck. -Daniel B. Cristofani. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 09 12:25:07 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LL5v-000PpW-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:24:59 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:24:52 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LL5G-000PpE-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:24:18 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:24:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LL58-000Pp8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:24:10 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id gB9AO9Np003380; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:24:09 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18LKz1-0001F5-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:17:51 +0200 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:17:51 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: Laurent Vogel Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [fromage] 99 bottles of beer Message-ID: <20021209101749.GI4534@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Laurent Vogel , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <3DEFA1AC.79776EAE@club-internet.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DEFA1AC.79776EAE@club-internet.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 07:57:48PM +0100, Laurent Vogel wrote: > Fine, so here is a first sample... I can send a commented version too > if anybody's interested. I can also provide a (limited) fromage > debugger. I would be interested in the debugger. Besides, as this program (apparently) means that you've grokked how Fromage works, would you mind writing a concise specification about what the commands actually do (better than cat.fr)? I'm trying to keep up a small archive for fromage at http://esoteric.sange.fi/orphaned/ Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 09 13:28:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LM5F-0000HQ-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 13:28:21 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 13:28:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LM4n-0000H7-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 13:27:53 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 13:27:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LM4f-0000H1-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 13:27:45 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id gB9BRjNp000931 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:27:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18LLyZ-0001GG-00 for ; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 13:21:27 +0200 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:21:27 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: referential transparency Message-ID: <20021209112125.GK4534@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20020315165412.5c6676fe.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <20021207135821.6fd8e35d.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021207135821.6fd8e35d.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc If I remember correctly, most of this discussion was about whether the world is intrinsically non-functional, i.e. whether functional models are unnatural for the representation of the world. I won't begin to dig the archives for the discussion, but will comment inasmuch I can get the context from the quotes. On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 01:58:21PM -0600, Chris Pressey wrote: > > Hmm, I see single-assignment as a direct result of referential > > transparency. But the difference is, of course, caused by our > > terminologies. Without referential transparency, however, > > single-assignment is more like a gesture than an actual property of > > language, because you can then write programs that basically use > > recursion only to loop and perform calculation by (for example, in the > > case of Erlang) sending and receiving messages. > In the same way strong typing is a "gesture" of C, sure. Agreed. Although Erlang's message passing and recursion are options of how to structure your program and messages do break referential transparency. In C, you don't have the option of using strong typing for everything, because C doesn't have facilities for that. [bits on state and mutable state also agreed on.] > > Apparently you haven't really looked into Haskell's I/O model, because > > you think it's that hard to accommodate I/O in a functional, > > referentially transparent framework. > Sort of, but not quite. Returning to the forest from the trees, my point > has always been more along the lines of this: I/O is, by definition, an > intentional *violation* of scope. Data are "put in" and "put out" of the Disagreed. In my way of thinking, scopes are static, and I/O is no more in violation of scopes than passing of parameters or other such phenomena. You seem to be thinking of functions as somehow "nested" by definition: there is always an outer function (caller) and an inner one (callee). But this is a notion created by strict evaluation. In a purely functional environment, the evaluation just forms dependency graphs between its elements. Surprisingly, it is possible for two mechanisms that provide well-defined subresults (for example, functions that return infinite lists) to be interdependent. In the same way, a function / set of functions representing a program and a function / set of functions representing the world can be interdependent. > scope. I can't find any way to have this mesh cleanly with RT, because RT > is by definition an intentional *retention* of scope. Isn't it? Can you > think of a way to reconcile these two conceptually (w/o involving Haskell > or any other language in the explanation)? I can't. You seem to have a very different concept of "scope" from mine, so I won't even try. But my model of world as functional system in some sense responds to this question, because it implies a functional interpretation of real time. > I wasn't talking about how something "really" works, though; I think we > can agree that that's probably unknowable. Agreed. > > But I'll > > still try to explain how you can see the world as a purely functional > > network (not as stateless). Thisnk the world comprises of lists of > > states for all objects in the world. Then the objects read each other's > > states and produce new states in their own list, depending on this > > input. You can't handle the whole world's state for two reasons (in > > addition to limited processing capabilities): first, the world's state > > might depend on your observations (this is a property of quantum > > mechanics the concurrent model has hard time explaining); second, some > > object's state might be totally independent of you observation, so that > > you can never know how far the actual object has gone - you can only > > read its "track". This is equal to people not being able to test some > > object's properties. In my view, functional network explains the world > > far better than concurrency... > I fail to see how any of this implies any aspect of "functional", though. > You mention "state", presumably w/o the connotation of mutability that I'm > used to hearing when I hear "state", but then you say "produce new states > in their own list" - which means their lists are mutable - or that every Okay, I was being imprecise. Every item in the list represents one state, "mutable" state. The state is not mutated in-place, instead the new state can be found at the next item of the list. The "logic" of the particles is in functions that recursively call themselves to produce the tail of the list. As the list is not produced all at one but rather on demand, I said the particles "produce new states in their own list". But! I am not claiming the world necessarily, ontologically, is functional. I was just pointing out that the world does not disagree with functional models, that these two are not "unnatural" for each other, any more than the world disagrees with concurrent object models with mutable state. > > With functional abstraction, you're actually adding information about > > the world, because you can to some extent recover the world's past > > state. So I'm not ignoring things - all the information is there, it's > > just in a different format. > You seem to be ignoring the fact that the world shows few if any signs of > behaving like this. The question I have is: *why* model something that > can't be shown to exist (in this case, an objective past?) Besides the > usual esolanging excuse of it being entertaining, o' course ;) [Not an "objective" past, just a subjective one.] I'm still lost about just what makes you think the world "shows signs" of behaving like a system of objects with mutable state. Again, the objects are a model of the world, as are functional dependency networks, and the bias on which models the world "better" (as they both do equally well) in a conceptual one. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 09 17:52:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LQD5-000Cnl-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 17:52:43 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 17:52:36 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LQCN-000CnD-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 17:51:59 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 17:51:51 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LQCE-000Cn5-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 17:51:50 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id gB9FpnDO026681 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:51:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18LQ66-0001In-00 for ; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 17:45:30 +0200 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:45:30 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [functional] Erlang - miscellaneous remarks Message-ID: <20021209154530.GB4954@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20021207155341.22a28dd7.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021207155341.22a28dd7.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 03:53:41PM -0600, Chris Pressey wrote: > > Now, Erlang's explicit concurrency lies somewhere between these two. It > > is certainly closer to the OO model than the flow one, > Try telling that to an Erlanger :) (most deem OO to be overrated - which, > by and large, it is. Encapsulation is the most important; the other > features of OO are pretty much icing on the cake.) Well, you don't miss what you haven't used. I agree with you that OO is overrated, but I think encapsulation is not worth much compared to virtual binding. > > but the > > concurrency semantics demand higher level of independence and > > consistency from individual components, which I think is good. > Good? Critical! :) Well, you can become object happy, functional happy, and concurrency happy. But what Erlang's philosophy (not the language per se) provides you with is a well-honed version of traditional means for structuring programs. Things such as higher-order functions and closures actually raise the programmers possibilities of expressivity. In other words: Erlang's philosophy achieves productivity by constraining "bad use" of the language. OO and functional philosophy do that but they also provide the programmer with new tools and means for expressing programs. > > On the > > other hand, explicit concurrency is even more heavy-weight than the > > usual OO frameworks (from the design point of view), > I disagree (actually, it depends on what you mean by heavy-weight.) Well, the key was "from the design point of view". Which means that explicit concurrency requires the programmer to spend more time on structuring the program. I think my original point was that strong encapsulation (as well as enforced referential transparency, for example) add need of "glue" code to keep communication chains correct. > Concurrency (that is, explicit concurrency) is fairly natural in the > universe at large, so it tends to encourage models with a *higher* > correlation to nature - and thus lighter in weight (weight being the Here we go again... I'll leave the discussion of what is a "natural" model of the universe in the other thread. > One other thing to note - elsewhere, I believe you mentioned that the > 'normal' way of defining functions in Haskell and O'Caml is to use lambdas > and currying. This is why I don't like them so much - it seems to be > persuing highly compressed mathematical beauty at the cost of readability, This at least depends on what you're used to. Both languages allow both syntaces, though: let mul x y = x * y let mul (x,y) = x * y I find the former more readable. Besides, it allows more idioms: let thrice = mul 3 map (mul 2) [3; 5; 7] Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 09 23:04:07 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LV4B-000DvT-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:03:51 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:03:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LV35-000DvH-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:02:43 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:02:35 +0200 (EET) Received: from relay-3v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.114]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LV2w-000DvB-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:02:34 +0200 Received: from club-internet.fr (lcbv2-3-6.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.105.6]) by relay-3v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C211A4C; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:02:08 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3DF504E1.E8642A29@club-internet.fr> Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 22:02:25 +0100 From: Laurent Vogel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Panu Kalliokoski , lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [fromage] 99 bottles of beer References: <3DEFA1AC.79776EAE@club-internet.fr> <20021209101749.GI4534@ling.helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu Kalliokoski a écrit: > > On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 07:57:48PM +0100, Laurent Vogel wrote: > > Fine, so here is a first sample... I can send a commented version too > > if anybody's interested. I can also provide a (limited) fromage > > debugger. > > I would be interested in the debugger. Besides, as this program > (apparently) means that you've grokked how Fromage works, Alas this program DOES NOT mean that I've groked how Fromage works: my program only does an equivalent of for(;;) { ... break; ... } by using only ONE pair of (): [ ... ( ... ] ) For this reason I didn't implement features that I didn't understand in my debugger, because my main interest was to be able to produce a 99-bottles in Fromage rather quickly. However since you did express your interest I will try to see if I can understand more how the other features work. Expect an answer at the lastest at the beginning of next year (answer being, either the specification or a statement saying that I'm unable to provide such). Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 09 23:20:56 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LVKf-000E0L-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:20:53 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:20:46 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LVKJ-000E0E-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:20:31 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:20:23 +0200 (EET) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LVKA-000Dzx-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:20:22 +0200 Received: from gin.bar (root@ppp7.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.60]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id gB9MF5b06322 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:15:06 +0200 Received: from localhost (andreou@localhost) by gin.bar (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id gB9NCnd15097 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 23:12:50 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: gin.bar: andreou owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 23:12:42 +0000 (GMT) From: "Al. Andreou" X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] Re: [fromage] 99 bottles of beer In-Reply-To: <3DF504E1.E8642A29@club-internet.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > However since you did express your interest I will try to see if > I can understand more how the other features work. Expect an answer > at the lastest at the beginning of next year (answer being, either > the specification or a statement saying that I'm unable to provide > such). That's so Goedelian of you :-) . To higher the demand, I'll also express interest in a cheesy specification of fromage: I hereby express my interest in a cheesy specification of fromage. Happy esohacking :) . -- Al. Andreou | http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | http://hydra.hellug.gr/ Scratch the disks! Drop the core! Roll the tapes across the floor! -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 10 02:18:56 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LY6m-000EN5-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:18:44 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:18:37 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LY68-000EMt-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:18:04 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:17:56 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LY5z-000EMn-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:17:55 +0200 Received: (qmail 1498 invoked by uid 1001); 10 Dec 2002 00:17:38 -0000 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 18:17:38 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [functional] Erlang - miscellaneous remarks Message-Id: <20021209181738.1958eb3f.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: <20021209154530.GB4954@ling.helsinki.fi> References: <20021207155341.22a28dd7.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <20021209154530.GB4954@ling.helsinki.fi> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:45:30 +0200 Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 03:53:41PM -0600, Chris Pressey wrote: > > > Now, Erlang's explicit concurrency lies somewhere between these two. > > > It is certainly closer to the OO model than the flow one, > > Try telling that to an Erlanger :) (most deem OO to be overrated - > > which, by and large, it is. Encapsulation is the most important; the > > other features of OO are pretty much icing on the cake.) > > Well, you don't miss what you haven't used. I agree with you that OO > is overrated, but I think encapsulation is not worth much compared to > virtual binding. I assume you mean polymorphism - I've never heard the term 'virtual' be used in a description of OO where it wasn't a buzzword that got added in when talking about implementation. If someone were put a gun to my head and make me choose either never using encapsulation or never using polymorphism I would gladly abandon polymorphism before encapsulation, regardless of the paradigm. I can do my own name-mangling, if it comes down to it (in fact there could be some good reasons to leave that job to a human.) I generally can't do my own encapsulation except by means of a pseudo-legal document (i.e. "please don't call foo() unless...") Polymorphism comes down to increasing source code readability at the cost of ambiguating behaviour - just like overloading operators. Surely you can see how I might feel that intentionally ambiguating behaviour is something that should be done sparingly, if at all? That every paradigm I can think of has adopted some form of encapsulation should be a pretty good indication that it's rather important - even machine language generally has protected memory these days. (One other thing - why on Earth am I talking about *good* programming practice, on an esoteric programming list? Well, so people can get clues on what to avoid :) for example, I believe a language with an esoteric type system was mentioned. Such a language could have a single operator/method, which is overloaded based on the number and types of it's arguments, and this would be quite apropos on the esoteric scale IMHO.) > > > but the > > > concurrency semantics demand higher level of independence and > > > consistency from individual components, which I think is good. > > Good? Critical! :) > > Well, you can become object happy, functional happy, and concurrency > happy. But what Erlang's philosophy (not the language per se) provides > you with is a well-honed version of traditional means for structuring > programs. Thus neatly avoiding buzzwords. > Things such as higher-order functions and closures actually > raise the programmers possibilities of expressivity. > > In other words: Erlang's philosophy achieves productivity by > constraining"bad use" of the language. OO and functional philosophy do > that but they also provide the programmer with new tools and means for > expressing programs. But you don't need the whole philosophy to just introduce a new tool. The more you can avoid labelling/buzzwording things, the less chance people will get 'happy' over them, psychologically speaking. And I still think component independence is critical, and that it is encapsulation's job to enforce it. The most expensive bugs I've seen first-hand, have been ones where something was poorly encapsulated. > > > On the > > > other hand, explicit concurrency is even more heavy-weight than the > > > usual OO frameworks (from the design point of view), > > I disagree (actually, it depends on what you mean by heavy-weight.) > > Well, the key was "from the design point of view". Which means that > explicit concurrency requires the programmer to spend more time on > structuring the program. I think my original point was that strong > encapsulation (as well as enforced referential transparency, for > example) add need of "glue" code to keep communication chains correct. The alternative is that you rely on someone else's idea of what all the communication chains in your program should look like. Yes, you save time if you do that, but you trade off flexibility. It's interesting to note, perhaps, that Mozart/Oz also recently switched away from implicit concurrency, to explicit concurrency. The thing is, unless your network of processors are homogenous in nature, implicit concurrency is just too limiting to the kinds of distributed things you can build. Real networks seem to more often have at least *some* nodes of a more specialized nature. This relates to a larger issue, I guess - that there are two opposing camps, let's call them Team Expediency and Team Purity. Team Expediency is only concerned with results, is made up of hackers, and promotes languages with fine-grained control over things (C++ and Perl to name two.) Their languages usually wind up far too complex for their own good, so that the power they provide often goes unused because there's a simpler and/or more obvious way that gets chosen first. It's like never switching out of first gear. Team Purity, on the other hand, is primarily concerned with mathematical beauty and correctness, is made up of academics, and promotes languages with extremely formalized specifications of things (Mercury and Eiffel to name two.) They have the opposite problem; the most powerful things are the easiest to use right-off, so it's like never switching out of fifth gear. Whereas Erlang has a centrifugal clutch :) Just my opinion, of course... -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 10 04:28:56 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18La8b-000EnD-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 04:28:45 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 04:28:38 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18La7w-000En6-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 04:28:05 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 04:27:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18La7m-000En0-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 04:27:54 +0200 Received: (qmail 1591 invoked by uid 1001); 10 Dec 2002 02:27:37 -0000 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:27:37 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: referential transparency Message-Id: <20021209202737.4f42dccb.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: <20021209112125.GK4534@ling.helsinki.fi> References: <20020315165412.5c6676fe.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <20021207135821.6fd8e35d.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <20021209112125.GK4534@ling.helsinki.fi> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:21:27 +0200 Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > If I remember correctly, most of this discussion was about whether the > world is intrinsically non-functional, i.e. whether functional models > are unnatural for the representation of the world. I won't begin to > dig the archives for the discussion, but will comment inasmuch I can > get the context from the quotes. If that was what it's about then we should probably adjust it slightly. Surely, if you look at any given bit of the world, you can see things that match with given bits of given programming paradigms. The question might be better as, which parts of the world does a functional model represent well, and which parts does it represent poorly. > On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 01:58:21PM -0600, Chris Pressey wrote: > > > Hmm, I see single-assignment as a direct result of referential > > > transparency. But the difference is, of course, caused by our > > > terminologies. Without referential transparency, however, > > > single-assignment is more like a gesture than an actual property of > > > language, because you can then write programs that basically use > > > recursion only to loop and perform calculation by (for example, in > > > the case of Erlang) sending and receiving messages. > > In the same way strong typing is a "gesture" of C, sure. > > Agreed. Although Erlang's message passing and recursion are options > of how to structure your program and messages do break referential > transparency. In C, you don't have the option of using strong typing > for everything, because C doesn't have facilities for that. ? Doesn't C require you to specify the type of each variable and argument, and to explicitly cast to void to avoid strong typing? Perhaps I could have put it this way as well, it's a gesture in the same way that OO is a gesture in C++ (and almost any "OO" language besides Smalltalk.) As an aside - just about everyone with a FP background who I've seen introduced to Erlang almost immediately mentions "but messages break referential transparency." To which the Erlanger almost always responds with "So...?" I guess this means that FP people generally regard RT as critical (if not some kind of sacred cow,) something I don't quite understand, because I don't see how you can write production code that's entirely referentially transparent. You, Panu, apparently do see this, but I have yet to understand your explanations :) Not that RT is undesirable, but it's kind of sad when it becomes some kind of grail - much like reusability in the OO world, incidentally. > [bits on state and mutable state also agreed on.] > > > > Apparently you haven't really looked into Haskell's I/O model, > > > because you think it's that hard to accommodate I/O in a functional, > > > referentially transparent framework. > > Sort of, but not quite. Returning to the forest from the trees, my > > point has always been more along the lines of this: I/O is, by > > definition, an intentional *violation* of scope. Data are "put in" > > and "put out" of the > > Disagreed. In my way of thinking, scopes are static, and I/O is no more > in violation of scopes than passing of parameters or other such > phenomena. > > You seem to be thinking of functions as somehow "nested" by definition: > there is always an outer function (caller) and an inner one (callee). And with one entry point, one exit point - yes, pretty much. If they don't do this, then it would be better (IMHO) to call them coroutines: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutines.html > But this is a notion created by strict evaluation. In a purely > functional environment, the evaluation just forms dependency graphs > between its elements. Surprisingly, it is possible for two mechanisms > that provide well-defined subresults (for example, functions that return > infinite lists) to be interdependent. I'm lost. What I take from this is that you mean to say that a purely functional environment must have lazy evaluation, and that eager (and maybe even normal-order?) evaluation is a kind of degenerate case. That hardly seems fair (wouldn't a purely pure functional framework leave the order of evaluation undefined, i.e. non-deterministic?), but I'm probably misunderstanding you. > In the same way, a function / > set of functions representing a program and a function / set of > functions representing the world can be interdependent. But - if two sets of functions are interdependent, then how can *either* be referentially transparent? "Surprisingly" might be an understatement. > > scope. I can't find any way to have this mesh cleanly with RT, > > because RT is by definition an intentional *retention* of scope. > > Isn't it? Can you think of a way to reconcile these two conceptually > > (w/o involving Haskell or any other language in the explanation)? I > > can't. > > You seem to have a very different concept of "scope" from mine, so I > won't even try. But my model of world as functional system in some > sense responds to this question, because it implies a functional > interpretation of real time. In the above, RT = referential transparency, not real time, in case there was some ambiguity there. Although of course it's hard to see how functions which depend on real time anything could be referentially transparent, either, at least, not without measures like timestamping everything. [what follows otherwise mostly makes sense] > I'm still lost about just what makes you think the world "shows signs" > of behaving like a system of objects with mutable state. If I tip over a barrel of wine, the wine spills, and I've changed it's state. Have I created a new barrel? Well possibly - but that would imply that there's still a reason to care about the old barrel - does it still exist? Well *possibly* - maybe it got sent to some other plane of existence not currently accessible - but certainly these are abstractions which stretch the imagination. If you don't use Occam's Razor to get rid of them, there are useless entities hanging around (a barrel which no longer exists and, due to entropy, would take more effort to re-create, is simpler to treat as having really changed state.) It's not that the barrel shows signs of being an (stateful) object, as much as barrel-tipping doesn't show signs of being a function which retains history (objectively, subjectively, or otherwise.) > Again, the > objects are a model of the world, as are functional dependency networks, > and the bias on which models the world "better" (as they both do equally > well) in a conceptual one. To take an extreme tangent - worb looks really good for modelling gases, and terrible for modelling pretty much anything else. And another - I've noticed how some technically-minded people overuse the phrase "such that" in conversation - essentially they're using a full-blown unification operator when they could be using something more straightforward. As for Erlang - when I look at the world, I more often than not see things with a high degree of independence interacting with each other. This is not really the case for, say, a pocket watch, since all the gears are intimately bound to one another. However, if you have merely a set of gears and cannot say that they are certainly a pocket watch, then it's useful (practically a necessity in my experience) for each of the gears to be assigned a seperate, independent existence, since they could be used in anything, and their possible combinations are essentially unlimited. These are all examples of where I think a model can have a noticable match or mismatch against the part of the world it's modelling. So I guess I'm dealing with epistomology rather than ontology here. Because you can't see how it's implemented, you can't say that the world (or a language) "really" works one way or another. But you can see the surface features that you are "allowed" to see, and these may or may not cleave well with another chosen set of features. Which brings me back to - I fail to see how functional programming, with it's emphasis on referential transparency, meshes well with I/O. Assuming it even can, it seems limited to a certain order of evaluation (lazy) if I've understood you correctly. Even in this, the best of circumstances, it seems that there is quite a bit of conceptual overhead in getting the two to play nice together - modelling an input stream as an infinite list is, well, putting a lot of eggs in the same basket, since a stream doesn't have a well-defined memory, while a list does. My conclusion: when modelling something which is I/O intensive, it's not a crime to decide that referential transparency may not be all it's cracked up to be. YMMV. -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 10 06:53:47 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LcOp-000EzW-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:53:39 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:53:32 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LcO8-000EzO-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:52:57 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:52:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LcNz-000EzI-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:52:47 +0200 Received: (qmail 1690 invoked by uid 1001); 10 Dec 2002 04:52:30 -0000 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:52:30 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [befunge] the eternal question [long] Message-Id: <20021209225230.1cfa24c5.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc OK, Befunge. Well, you probably know I'm sort of a purist when it comes to Befunge. It's all been downhill since -93, in my eyes. But, I hold out some hope. There probably ain't gonna be time for Befunge-102 ("and lo, there was much rioting in the streets") but possibly -103, being the ten-year anniversary of the creation of the language, warrants *some* attempt at it again. First off, to clear the air: Befunge is not, nor has it ever been, a particle automaton; and there is little reason for it to suddenly become one. The IP is no more part of the program than a read/write head is part of a tape. This is why I'm somewhat puzzled by remarks by both Panu and John. While Panu's proposals (minimize 'intangible' elements - see the archives) are very nice ideas, they clearly apply to a particle automaton. Also, John sees a similarity between HUNTER and Befunge that I don't see - HUNTER is a lot closer to being a particle automaton than being a Funge. (Other examples of particle automata include RUBE [II] and worb.) There may be good reasons to prefer a particle automaton, but that still doesn't mean that that's what Befunge should strive to be. That is, rather, a reason to work on a different language, if such is desired. The other problem is (deep breath) non-local data. It's become my position that non-local data is just, in general for Funges, a Bad Thing(R). p and g were cute in -93, but "cute" is only a small part of the appeal - they're only cute because they doen't mesh too well with the rest of what's going on - they're too "normal", like non-local code would be. Also, AFAICT, every subsequent attempt to make accessing non-local data palatable, has only served to make it more objectionable. To this end - I'd much prefer NO non-local data. If some bit of data is not nearby (i.e. not in a cell adjacent to the IP), forget about it. You can't touch it. How, then, do we do anything of value in Befunge-103? Well, we could steal a notion from exactly where we should be stealing notions from - a game. Specifically, Snakes and Ladders. AKA Chutes and Ladders, I believe, and that's a more evokative name for what I have in mind - a chute. The idea is to designate certain portions of rows or columns as chutes. If data is placed into a cell which is part of a chute, it will automatically slide to the bottom of the chute - or as close to the bottom as it can without overwriting any other data already at the bottom of a chute. As data is removed from the bottom of a chute, anything above it also automatically slides down at that point. In this respect, it's not unlike a queue. However, such a chute could also be used as a stack, if data could be "pushed up" into the bottom of the chute, causing everything else in it to be moved back a cell. If a chute is entirely full, then trying to place more data onto it should probably block - assuming there is some instruction which can check the chute's status. This should allow mutexes to be easily constructed - a semaphore is basically just a chute of size 1. Could these chutes entirely replace the internal stack? Possibly, but I won't bank on it for now. Since they have fixed positions, and since the IP moves a lot, they would quickly become non-local and thus essentially useless - unless chutes were chained together - but that's a lot to ask right off, as keeping them straight and finite also keeps them simple, and apparently a good place to start. How would these chutes be specified? I was originally thinking that using characters in the source to mark out where each chute is, would be nice, and it would, but very limiting compared to being able to create and destroy chutes dynamically. So I'm leaning towards the second - how else do you have chutes of unbounded size? Also, it's worth considering that chutes are something that could be manually implemented locally, by using a large number of IP's, each of which is programmed to move one cell - so that chutes would be *built*, rather than part of the language. More flexible - but also quite gory. There are a couple of other areas that could be addressed. Spaces, stringmode, and wrapping all come to mind at once, since they're interrelated. Consider: If stringmode is replaced by a single instruction "Push String" which pops a count off the stack, then pushes that many cells in the line of the IP onto the stack, then advances the IP just past the end of those cells - that resolves ALL of the silliness in -98 about what spaces "mean" in stringmode while wrapping. It's a bit like Pascal-style strings instead of ASCIIZ strings. You'd see code like this: 0d"!dlrow ,olleH>:#v_ ^, < It might be a bit less fun, but you can embed " in a string, wrapping never happens while sucking back a string, and a space is a space is a space, no funkiness. Such a " operator could also replace j (sort of :) I'm not against modes, but I do think that what modes there are could be better chosen - for example, a bit like the Version programming language, a set of instructions could be specified as ignored... On to wrapping itself. Lahey-space is successful in that it is novel and provides a simple, intuitive way to make wrapping consistent. Lahey-space is not-so-successful in that it is REALLY VERY novel and steepens the learning curve noticably. But Lahey-space is not so important to examine as is the mind-set that led up to it's inception, namely, the assumption that wrapping is a property of the playfield. Perhaps that could be dismissed in favour of considering wrapping to be a property of the IP. Again with the tape player analogy (except this one is not nearly as good,) "rewind" is not a function of the tape per se, but of the spindle. This might let us introduce the concept of "strides" which (I think) Panu mentioned a long while back. It would also make it possible for different IP's to have different wrapping perimeters, thus clearing the way for more flexible and innovative encapsulation of code. The space itself could be a simple unbounded plane, and any IP's trying to leave it could just vanish (or be smart enough to turn around, or better, 90 degrees.) But each IP could also have a 'window' through which it views *part* of this plane, as a torus. i.e. if it tries to exit this window, it gets moved to the opposite edge of it. If the window/the strides can be manipulated at runtime, this could be exploited to specify flow control in a novel way. What else? Ah yes, multi-character instructions. I'm a bit undecided on this one. On the one hand, it might be nice to have a larger, perhaps even unbounded, set of potential instructions. On the other hand, it might not. I think if it can be done simply, without using strings - for example, when a capital letter is executed, every symbol up to the next space is concatenated to it to form a function name - then it's worth considering. Of course, if these names can be assigned to user code, then that introduces non-local execution. And if advanced I/O is accomplished through use of the ESO OS (using ^E or whatever we "decided" on as an escape character,) then there's little need for an unbounded instruction set. Either way - fingerprints should go; they're disgusting. As should, probably, comment mode, stacks of stacks, and much of the other crap that makes -98 a bit of a monstrosity. Stacks of stacks could be replaced by an End-of-Stack marker. This would act just like the real end of the stack, except that it could be popped off explicitly by some EoS-popping instruction. Essentially the same as a stack of stacks, but simpler. Also, the #!/usr/local/bin/befunge line at the top of the source should probably be specified to be ignored, if present, on all platforms - again, just to make things simpler. Hmmm... that's about all I can think of right now. Your Thoughts and Flames are Welcome, -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 10 10:39:45 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LfuB-000Fz5-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:38:15 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:38:08 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LfqY-000Fy7-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:34:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:34:22 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtp-out-6.wanadoo.fr ([193.252.19.25] helo=mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LfqQ-000Fxl-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:34:22 +0200 Received: from mel-rta8.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.79) by mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr (6.7.010) id 3DEF2002002F93C6 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:33:47 +0100 Received: from merlin.jq.fr (81.50.53.245) by mel-rta8.wanadoo.fr (6.7.010) id 3DEE0038002F99C9 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:33:47 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Jerome Quelin To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [befunge] the eternal question [long] Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:32:25 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <20021209225230.1cfa24c5.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: <20021209225230.1cfa24c5.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200212100932.25146.jquelin@mongueurs.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jquelin@mongueurs.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jquelin@mongueurs.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hi Chris, First of all, I'm glad to see your post, I could never imagine I could talk to you, the creator of this marvellous language: Befunge. Ok, now, let's talk about Befunge-103... On Tuesday, December 10th 2002 05:52, you wrote: [...] > To this end - I'd much prefer NO non-local data. If some bit of data > is not nearby (i.e. not in a cell adjacent to the IP), forget about > it. You can't touch it. IMHO, that's bad. This would mean no self-modifying code, and that's part of what makes Befunge such a sill^Wfun language. > If stringmode is replaced by a single instruction "Push String" which > pops a count off the stack, then pushes that many cells in the line > of the IP onto the stack, then advances the IP just past the end of > those cells [...] > You'd see code like this: > 0d"!dlrow ,olleH>:#v_ > ^, < > It might be a bit less fun, but you can embed " in a string, Good one. > wrapping never happens while sucking back a string, Why the hell? You mean that if you try to suck a string but doing so would go beyond the bounds of the Lahey Space, then the Lahey Space should grow? That's not such a good idea... I'd rather the string wrap, too, and suck till the amount of chars is taken. > Such a " operator could also replace j (sort of :) But then you'll need to add a instruction "pop n-cells from the stack". Agreed, you could do this with sthg like dk$ but I really _hate_ the k instruction (maybe that's because I wrote an interpreter for Befunge, and implementing this instruction is painful?) > What else? Ah yes, multi-character instructions. I'm a bit > undecided on this one. Well, I'm not. You should prohibit multi-char instructions. Having multi-chars instructions would really modify the aspect of a Befunge program, and make Befunge programs look the way other languages do. > I think if it can be done simply, > without using strings - for example, when a capital letter is > executed, every symbol up to the next space is concatenated to it to > form a function name - then it's worth considering. And how should we call external functions, since capital letters are meant to be bound with a library function? > Either way - fingerprints should go; they're disgusting. Agreed, especially since the specs are not clean: once a library is loaded, the interpreter is to put onto the TOSS the fingerprint of the just-loaded library. But nothing is said if the fingerprint is bigger than the maximum cell width. This means, for a 32-bits interpreter (4 bytes) that libraries can't have a name bigger than 0x80000000, ie, more than four letters with the first one smaller than "P" (chr(80)). > comment mode, Why do you want to remove comments? If you want to know whether they're used, then, yes, I'm using them. In a weird way, ok, but I'm using them. I wrote a Perl interpreter for Befunge. And then I wrote a Perl module to embed the Befunge interpreter, so that one could call inlined Befunge function from within Perl (you will agree that it's important to be able to call Befunge functions from Perl). But, as Befunge does not know anything about function, I decided (thanks to Sean O'Rourke) that code like this: ;:hello ; a"olleH",,,,,,q would define a Befunge function, named hello. > stacks of stacks, Well, I must agree with you: they're quite overkill. > Stacks of stacks could be replaced by an End-of-Stack marker. This > would act just like the real end of the stack, except that it could > be popped off explicitly by some EoS-popping instruction. > Essentially the same as a stack of stacks, but simpler. Shouldn't we be able to copy stack elements back and forth over the EoS marker (sthg like the u instruction)? But this would be a good idea. Especially if the EoS-popping instruction could pop the marker even if there are still elems on top of the stack before the EoS. Maybe we should be able to test whether there are still elements after the EoS (ie, how can we know if we're at the really beginning of the stack, or if we are at the beginning of a stack-marker). One more problem, about the 18th cell pushed by the y instruction: Funge specs just tell to push onto the stack the size of the stacks, but nothing is said about how user will retrieve the number of stacks. Anyway, if stack of stacks are meant to go, then we should not bother with that. Jerome, Befunge fanatic -- jquelin@mongueurs.net -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 10 12:20:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LhUb-000GYa-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:19:57 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:19:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LhRM-000GX3-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:16:36 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:16:28 +0200 (EET) Received: from 93.208-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be ([194.78.208.93] helo=decis.be) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LhRE-000GWw-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:16:28 +0200 Received: from decis.be ([192.168.0.20]) by decis.be ([194.78.208.93]) with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v6.5.0.R) for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:16:14 +0100 Message-ID: <3DF5C0C4.34550DB9@decis.be> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:24:04 +0100 From: Frederic van der Plancke Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [fromage] Fromage (temptative) spec & C(++) interpreter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-Sender: fplancke@decis.be X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I think I (almost) fully understand Fromage's specification. (That is, I can reconstruct something sensible from the original cat.fr spec.) The data area consists of an array of bits of unspecificed size; Say bool data[30000]; like in BF there is a data pointer that probably starts at position 0, and probably cannot go left to that position. Parentheses () brackets [] and c {} can be nested independently, e.g. ([{)}] is a legal Fromage program. At the top []-level inside each [] pair can appear at most one semi-colon ';'. '(' = "skip": unconditional jump to matching ')' '}' = "loop": unconditional jump to matching '{' '[' = "if-then": if current bit is false, then: * jump to next ';' before matching ']', bypassing any matched '['...']' pair and their content * if there's no such ';', jump to matching ']'. ';' = "else": unconditional jump to next ']', bypassing any matched '['...']' pair and their content. ']' = "endif", ')' = "endskip", "{" = "startloop": no operation. '<', '>' = move data pointer one position left (--dp), resp. right (++dp) ':' = toggle bit at current data position. If the toggled bit is data[8], then a character is input and stored in data[0] to data[7]; EOF appears as -1 (i.e. 255). If the toggled bit is data[9], then the character from data[0] to data[7] is output. (I don't know if 0 contains the least significant bit (probably ?) or the most s.b.) (Plus, cat.fr does not say whether bit toggling is actually done on data[8] and data[9].) Whitespace and alphabetic chars are comments; other chars are reserved for future language extensions. Here is a interpreter in C++ (perhaps even in C) with no error checking: (!!! untested, not even tried to compiled). (public domain) /* older C versions: #define bool char #define true 1 #define false 0 */ bool data[30000]; // the length is arbitrary and does not belong to Fromage's specification bool* input_trigger; bool* output_trigger; char* ip; // instruction pointer bool* dp; // data pointer void goto_match(char* to_find, int dir, char block_entry, char block_exit) { int level = 0; c += dir; while (level > 0 || strchr(to_find, *ip) == 0) { if (*ip == block_entry) ++ level; else if (*ip == block_exit) -- level; c += dir; } } void goto_next(char* to_find, char* skip) { goto_match(to_find, +1, skip[0], skip[1]); } void goto_prev(char* to_find, char* skip) { goto_match(to_find, -1, skip[1], skip[0]); } void do_input() { char c; int i; c = getchar(); for (i = 0; i < 8; ++ i) data[i] = ((c >> i) & 0x01 ? true : false); } void do_output() { char c = 0; int i; for (i = 0; i < 8; ++ i) if (data[i]) c += (1 << i); putchar(c); } void run(char* program) { ip = program; dp = data; input_trigger = &data[8]; output_trigger = &data[9]; while (*ip) { switch(*ip) { case '(': goto_next(")", "()"); break; case ')': break; /*NOP*/ case '{': break; /*NOP*/ case '}': goto_prev("{", "{}"); break; case '[': if (!*dp) goto_next(";]", "[]"); break; case ';': goto_next("]", "[]"); break; case ']': break; /*NOP*/ case '<': -- dp; break; case '>': ++ dp; break; case ':': *dp = ! *dp; if (dp == input_trigger) do_input(); if (dp == output_trigger) do_output(); break; default: break; // comment or illegal char, NOP. } ++ ip; } } //Frédéric vdP //This specification and interpreter are released to the public domain -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 10 12:46:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LhtG-000Ipg-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:26 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list sci); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:19 +0200 (EET) Received: from esoteric by oiva.sange.fi with local (Exim 4.10) id 18Lht1-000Ij1-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:11 +0200 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:11 +0200 From: Esoteric languages community To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi, sci@esoteric.sange.fi, chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [sci] [list-meta] new configuration and test post Message-ID: <20021210104511.GA64201@sange.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: Esoteric languages community X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: esoteric@sange.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: sci I finally found the "official" means of listar for cascading lists. As a result, I also changed the posting mode of these lists to closed, presumably resulting in reduced spam. The posting guidelines remain the same: 1) lang is the list for discussion about esoteric languages, sci is for generic scientific discussion, chat for miscellaneous and offtopic discussion. 2) all of these get their postings propagated to misc, which is an easy way to subscribe all of these lists. Nothing should be posted to misc directly; instead, postings that do not fit the topics of lang or sci should be posted to chat. 3) subscribing explicitly to more than one list is not recommended. If there are some problems with the lists from now on, they are related to the change in configuration. Panu From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 10 12:46:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Lht9-000Ijx-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:19 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from esoteric by oiva.sange.fi with local (Exim 4.10) id 18Lht1-000Ij1-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:11 +0200 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:11 +0200 From: Esoteric languages community To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi, sci@esoteric.sange.fi, chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] [list-meta] new configuration and test post Message-ID: <20021210104511.GA64201@sange.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: Esoteric languages community X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: esoteric@sange.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat I finally found the "official" means of listar for cascading lists. As a result, I also changed the posting mode of these lists to closed, presumably resulting in reduced spam. The posting guidelines remain the same: 1) lang is the list for discussion about esoteric languages, sci is for generic scientific discussion, chat for miscellaneous and offtopic discussion. 2) all of these get their postings propagated to misc, which is an easy way to subscribe all of these lists. Nothing should be posted to misc directly; instead, postings that do not fit the topics of lang or sci should be posted to chat. 3) subscribing explicitly to more than one list is not recommended. If there are some problems with the lists from now on, they are related to the change in configuration. Panu From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 10 12:48:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LhtT-000Ipr-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:39 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:26 +0200 (EET) Received: from esoteric by oiva.sange.fi with local (Exim 4.10) id 18Lht1-000Ij1-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:11 +0200 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:11 +0200 From: Esoteric languages community To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi, sci@esoteric.sange.fi, chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [list-meta] new configuration and test post Message-ID: <20021210104511.GA64201@sange.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: Esoteric languages community X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: esoteric@sange.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang I finally found the "official" means of listar for cascading lists. As a result, I also changed the posting mode of these lists to closed, presumably resulting in reduced spam. The posting guidelines remain the same: 1) lang is the list for discussion about esoteric languages, sci is for generic scientific discussion, chat for miscellaneous and offtopic discussion. 2) all of these get their postings propagated to misc, which is an easy way to subscribe all of these lists. Nothing should be posted to misc directly; instead, postings that do not fit the topics of lang or sci should be posted to chat. 3) subscribing explicitly to more than one list is not recommended. If there are some problems with the lists from now on, they are related to the change in configuration. Panu -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 10 23:56:50 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LsKU-000Fdj-00; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:54:14 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:54:01 +0200 (EET) Received: from h008.c000.snv.cp.net ([209.228.32.72] helo=c000.snv.cp.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LsKG-000Fdd-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:54:00 +0200 Received: (cpmta 13559 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2002 13:53:56 -0800 Received: from 65.34.109.59 (HELO Seldon) by smtp.albrecht.net (209.228.32.72) with SMTP; 10 Dec 2002 13:53:56 -0800 X-Sent: 10 Dec 2002 21:53:56 GMT Message-ID: <001201c2a096$aaf7cba0$3b6d2241@Seldon> From: "Kevin Albrecht" To: References: <3D1B8818.AD6C3FAA@dds.nl> <20021207144753.376a7bb9.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:54:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: kevin@albrecht.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang > > Conversely, any interpreter can be trivially turned into a compiler by > > having the compiler output the interpreter with the program as a > > compile-time constant. This is generally considered cheating, but > > works. > > Again, I suggest that there is a more accurate term for that as well; in > this case, it's a 'linker'. The classic way to make Befunge and Visual > Basic executables, of course :) Actually, I think the technical term for this is "threaded code". -- Kevin Albrecht -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 11 00:06:01 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LsUL-000Fhc-00; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 00:04:25 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 11 Dec 2002 00:04:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from relay-5v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.110]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LsU8-000FhT-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 00:04:12 +0200 Received: from club-internet.fr (liifi-13-63.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.44.63]) by relay-5v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74E1D1C3A for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:04:13 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3DF664CF.1F71D43D@club-internet.fr> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:03:59 +0100 From: Laurent Vogel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [fromage] Fromage (temptative) spec & C(++) interpreter References: <3DF5C0C4.34550DB9@decis.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang Frederic van der Plancke a écrit: > > I think I (almost) fully understand Fromage's specification. (That is, > I can reconstruct something sensible from the original cat.fr spec.) I almost agree with you, except for details outlined below. > The data area consists of an array of bits of unspecified size; > Say > bool data[30000]; > like in BF there is a data pointer that probably starts at position 0, it definitely starts at position 0. > and probably cannot go left to that position. untested but yes it makes sense. > Parentheses () brackets [] and c {} can be nested independently, e.g. > ([{)}] > is a legal Fromage program. > At the top []-level inside each [] pair can appear at most one > semi-colon ';'. yes, makes sense, but probably untested by the original interpreter. > '(' = "skip": unconditional jump to matching ')' precision: jump to matchin ')' going forward in the code; it is an error if no such ')' is encountered before the end of file. > '}' = "loop": unconditional jump to matching '{' precision: ... going backward; it is an error if no such ... > '[' = "if-then": > if current bit is false, then: > * jump to next ';' before matching ']', > bypassing any matched '['...']' pair and their content > * if there's no such ';', jump to matching ']'. > ';' = "else": > unconditional jump to next ']', bypassing > any matched '['...']' pair and their content. precision: '[' and ';' scan forward; it is an error if the expected chars are not found before the end of the file. > ']' = "endif", ')' = "endskip", "{" = "startloop": no operation. > > '<', '>' = move data pointer one position left (--dp), resp. right (++dp) > ':' = toggle bit at current data position. > If the toggled bit is data[8], then a character is input and stored in data[0] to > data[7]; EOF appears as -1 (i.e. 255). > If the toggled bit is data[9], then the character from data[0] to data[7] is output. > (I don't know if 0 contains the least significant bit (probably ?) or the most s.b.) the msb is in bit zero. yes, except it is WRONG: data[8] serves for OUTPUT and data[9] for INPUT. > (Plus, cat.fr does not say whether bit toggling is actually done on data[8] and > data[9].) yes, unknown. I would suggest that bit toggling does not occur (the bits remain zero). An extension could be, that checking data[9] AFTER input tells whether EOF was encountered or not, leaving the full range of 256 chars as legal input. > Whitespace and alphabetic chars are comments; other chars are reserved for future > language extensions. > > Here is a interpreter in C++ (perhaps even in C) with no error checking: > (!!! untested, not even tried to compiled). > (public domain) > > /* older C versions: > #define bool char > #define true 1 > #define false 0 > */ > > bool data[30000]; // the length is arbitrary and does not belong to Fromage's specification > > bool* input_trigger; > bool* output_trigger; > > char* ip; // instruction pointer > bool* dp; // data pointer > > void goto_match(char* to_find, int dir, char block_entry, char block_exit) > { > int level = 0; > c += dir; > while (level > 0 || strchr(to_find, *ip) == 0) > { > if (*ip == block_entry) > ++ level; > else if (*ip == block_exit) > -- level; > c += dir; > } > } > void goto_next(char* to_find, char* skip) > { > goto_match(to_find, +1, skip[0], skip[1]); > } > void goto_prev(char* to_find, char* skip) > { > goto_match(to_find, -1, skip[1], skip[0]); > } > > void do_input() > { > char c; > int i; > c = getchar(); > for (i = 0; i < 8; ++ i) > data[i] = ((c >> i) & 0x01 ? true : false); > } wrong, msb in data[0] > void do_output() > { > char c = 0; > int i; > for (i = 0; i < 8; ++ i) > if (data[i]) > c += (1 << i); > putchar(c); > } wrong, msb in data[0] the rest looks okay to me. Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 11 04:59:50 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Lx4H-000GQq-00; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:57:49 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:57:36 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Lx43-000GQk-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:57:35 +0200 Received: (qmail 2896 invoked by uid 1001); 11 Dec 2002 02:57:16 -0000 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:57:16 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [befunge] the eternal question [long] Message-Id: <20021210205716.3a7fc035.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: <200212100932.25146.jquelin@mongueurs.net> References: <20021209225230.1cfa24c5.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <200212100932.25146.jquelin@mongueurs.net> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:32:25 +0100 Jerome Quelin wrote: > Hi Chris, Hi! > First of all, I'm glad to see your post, I could never imagine I could > talk to you, the creator of this marvellous language: Befunge. Oh, pshaw. It was an accident, I swear. > Ok, now, let's talk about Befunge-103... > > > On Tuesday, December 10th 2002 05:52, you wrote: > [...] > > To this end - I'd much prefer NO non-local data. If some bit of data > > is not nearby (i.e. not in a cell adjacent to the IP), forget about > > it. You can't touch it. > > IMHO, that's bad. This would mean no self-modifying code, and that's > part of what makes Befunge such a sill^Wfun language. To be presice: no non-local self-modifying code. You would still be able to modify cells directly adjacent to the IP. And I don't see why you couldn't execute code in a chute... But, yes, it reduces the number of possibilities for writing self-modifying code, because chutes are more "well behaved" than poking and peeking funge-space is. In other words - it becomes much harder to overwrite stuff rather than just adding to it. OTOH, this sort of restriction might force programmers to be more creative with their SM code... basically if you're executing a row of code, you can write/change the rows immediately above you and below you, and that's essentially it... but then you could execute the new code you just created, and have it change the *next* row above or below, and so on, forcing you to "chain" your modifications together. > > > If stringmode is replaced by a single instruction "Push String" which > > pops a count off the stack, then pushes that many cells in the line > > of the IP onto the stack, then advances the IP just past the end of > > those cells > [...] > > You'd see code like this: > > 0d"!dlrow ,olleH>:#v_ > > ^, < > > It might be a bit less fun, but you can embed " in a string, > > Good one. > > > wrapping never happens while sucking back a string, > > Why the hell? You mean that if you try to suck a string but doing so > would go beyond the bounds of the Lahey Space, then the Lahey Space > should grow? That's not such a good idea... I'd rather the string wrap, > too, and suck till the amount of chars is taken. Nono - this was the issue that had to be addressed in -98, for what would happen when trying to wrap in stringmode. One of the proposals was that an infinite number of spaces be pushed on the stack. But the one we settled on was that one space would be pushed and the rest skipped, even if not wrapping - "HTML style". I've never liked that an idea was borrowed from HTML, it seems way out of place :) Luckily - with a fixed-length "Push String" instruction instead of stringmode, the problem just vanishes, 'cos there's no more stringmode to wrap in... > > Such a " operator could also replace j (sort of :) > > But then you'll need to add a instruction "pop n-cells from the stack". Which I'm sort of thinking of putting in anyway ($ and : could take an operand to indicate how many times they pop or replicate, respectively.) > Agreed, you could do this with sthg like dk$ but I really _hate_ the k > instruction (maybe that's because I wrote an interpreter for Befunge, > and implementing this instruction is painful?) IIRC k is a *little* weird, and should be either generalized or removed. > > What else? Ah yes, multi-character instructions. I'm a bit > > undecided on this one. > > Well, I'm not. You should prohibit multi-char instructions. Having > multi-chars instructions would really modify the aspect of a Befunge > program, and make Befunge programs look the way other languages do. I agree that the idea of making "crossword programs" should be in a seperate language, a variation on Befunge, possibly with BASIC keywords, so you can say things like P R INPUT N T and such. Cute, FWIW, but not in Befunge itself. > > I think if it can be done simply, > > without using strings - for example, when a capital letter is > > executed, every symbol up to the next space is concatenated to it to > > form a function name - then it's worth considering. > > And how should we call external functions, since capital letters are > meant to be bound with a library function? Through the ESO OS, presumably. There's considerable misunderstanding regarding it though, and it's not Befunge-specific, so I'll address it in another thread. > > > Either way - fingerprints should go; they're disgusting. > > Agreed, especially since the specs are not clean: once a library is > loaded, the interpreter is to put onto the TOSS the fingerprint of the > just-loaded library. But nothing is said if the fingerprint is bigger > than the maximum cell width. This means, for a 32-bits interpreter (4 > bytes) that libraries can't have a name bigger than 0x80000000, ie, > more than four letters with the first one smaller than "P" (chr(80)). Indeed - a lot of strange assumptions were made for them, and I just really don't like them. > > comment mode, > > Why do you want to remove comments? Not comments, just the mode. Write all the comments you like, just don't execute them. Unless, of course, you really want to... > If you want to know whether they're used, then, yes, I'm using them. In > a weird way, ok, but I'm using them. I wrote a Perl interpreter for > Befunge. And then I wrote a Perl module to embed the Befunge > interpreter, so that one could call inlined Befunge function from > within Perl (you will agree that it's important to be able to call > Befunge functions from Perl). Utterly crucial, yes. :) > But, as Befunge does not know anything > about function, I decided (thanks to Sean O'Rourke) that code like > this: > ;:hello ; a"olleH",,,,,,q > would define a Befunge function, named hello. OK, but - why do these need to be defined at the Befunge level? Wouldn't it be simpler to write Perl wrappers around inline Befunge, then call the wrappers? > > stacks of stacks, > > Well, I must agree with you: they're quite overkill. > > > > Stacks of stacks could be replaced by an End-of-Stack marker. This > > would act just like the real end of the stack, except that it could > > be popped off explicitly by some EoS-popping instruction. > > Essentially the same as a stack of stacks, but simpler. > > Shouldn't we be able to copy stack elements back and forth over the EoS > marker (sthg like the u instruction)? Er - probably the EoS-popping instruction could search down the stack and remove the first one, even if it's not at the top of the stack - the end result being, everything above the EoS marker is retained. Or, the programmer could be forced to place the data in temporary cells in the playfield, then pop the EoS, then push the data back on... > But this would be a good idea. > Especially if the EoS-popping instruction could pop the marker even if > there are still elems on top of the stack before the EoS. Hey, there ya go :) > Maybe we > should be able to test whether there are still elements after the EoS > (ie, how can we know if we're at the really beginning of the stack, or > if we are at the beginning of a stack-marker). > > One more problem, about the 18th cell pushed by the y instruction: Funge > > specs just tell to push onto the stack the size of the stacks, but > nothing is said about how user will retrieve the number of stacks. > Anyway, if stack of stacks are meant to go, then we should not bother > with that. Yeah, the y instruction should probably be totally re-evaluated, as well. > > Jerome, Befunge fanatic -Chris [insert stuff about unicorns here] -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 11 06:34:11 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LyXe-000GY5-00; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 06:32:14 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 11 Dec 2002 06:32:01 +0200 (EET) Received: from pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu ([18.7.21.83]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18LyXR-000GXy-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 06:32:01 +0200 Received: from central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (CENTRAL-CITY-CARRIER-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.72]) by pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA06126 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (MELBOURNE-CITY-STREET.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.86]) by central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA05960 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (TOPQUARK.MIT.EDU [18.242.1.162]) by melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA24605 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:31:56 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3DF664CF.1F71D43D@club-internet.fr> References: <3DF5C0C4.34550DB9@decis.be> <3DF664CF.1F71D43D@club-internet.fr> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:32:02 -0500 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] Re: [fromage] Fromage (temptative) spec & C(++) interpreter Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang >the msb is in bit zero. > >yes, except it is WRONG: data[8] serves for OUTPUT and data[9] for >INPUT. > >> (Plus, cat.fr does not say whether bit toggling is actually done >>on data[8] and >> data[9].) > >yes, unknown. I would suggest that bit toggling does not occur (the >bits remain zero). An extension could be, that checking data[9] AFTER >input tells whether EOF was encountered or not, leaving the full >range of 256 chars as legal input. The original C code does NOT toggle bits 8 and 9. But I like the extension mentioned above. Some code to illustrate what the spec says (letters here stand for balanced code segments): ([);{ B (] A [}] C ) This code executes A, and then jumps back to B on true (and skips C), or executes C on false. It is basically a "then-if-else". A semi-colon can be used like this as an unconditional forward jump, as long as you balance the brackets. Note that the ([); ] device allows a single parenthesis to be skipped itself. -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 11 09:40:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18M1S3-000H6L-00; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:38:39 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:38:26 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18M1Rp-000H6F-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:38:25 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id gBB7cMDO023246; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:38:23 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18M1La-0001pD-00; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:31:58 +0200 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:31:58 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: Chris Pressey Cc: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: referential transparency Message-ID: <20021211073152.GA6934@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: Chris Pressey , lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20020315165412.5c6676fe.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <20021207135821.6fd8e35d.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <20021209112125.GK4534@ling.helsinki.fi> <20021209202737.4f42dccb.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021209202737.4f42dccb.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 08:27:37PM -0600, Chris Pressey wrote: > Surely, if you look at any given bit of the world, you can see things that > match with given bits of given programming paradigms. The question might > be better as, which parts of the world does a functional model represent > well, and which parts does it represent poorly. I'm not so interested in this, because the representation of different parts is synergetic: if you represent, say, I/O functionally, it becomes easier to represent the program that uses I/O also functionally, and so on... For this reason, I'm interested how well the different models befit the world _as a whole_, and my opinion is that they do it equally well. I think the primary reason for seeing I/O as primarily non-functional is that traditional programming environments are relatively non-functional. > > > In the same way strong typing is a "gesture" of C, sure. > > Agreed. Although Erlang's message passing and recursion are options > > of how to structure your program and messages do break referential > > transparency. In C, you don't have the option of using strong typing > > for everything, because C doesn't have facilities for that. > ? Doesn't C require you to specify the type of each variable and > argument, and to explicitly cast to void to avoid strong typing? Exactly. For some types, you have to use what C provides you with, for others, you have to cast to void * (not void). You don't have any options in C whether to use strong typing or not. But in Erlang, you can choose whether to use referentially transparent constructions or not. > As an aside - just about everyone with a FP background who I've seen > introduced to Erlang almost immediately mentions "but messages break > referential transparency." To which the Erlanger almost always responds > with "So...?" I guess this means that FP people generally regard RT as This is also my point. You can use messages, but on the other hand Erlang is not very functional as a language. As a result of deliberately abandoning many features present in other languages that call themselves functional, Erlangers end overemphasising the advantages of Erlang's "features of choice". I do think Erlang provides a consistent and well-defined framework for structuring programs (if not overly practical), but it is sad to see the community take its niche by bashing the techniques Erlang's chosen to abandon. > critical (if not some kind of sacred cow,) something I don't quite RT is not critical, but neither is concurrency or encapsulation. Single-assignment as defined by you a lot earlier is about as un-critical as I can imagine. Concurrency and referential transparency are similar in that, there are countless techniques they make possible, and thus they both gather people who overestimate the importance of their technique of choice (because they can see the benefits it brings) and underestimate the importance of others' techniques (because you don't miss what you don't use). Encapsulation, on the other hand, does not quite fit the picture, as there is no way you could completely remove encapsulation. Encapsulation is more of a phenomenon of the programmer society. > understand, because I don't see how you can write production code that's > entirely referentially transparent. You, Panu, apparently do see this, > but I have yet to understand your explanations :) Well, considering that it is being done a lot, it obviously is possible... and I'm saying it's not less natural either. Maybe it boils down to this: in FP, you can quite easily build any other model I've encountered thus far. But even more interestingly, you can also define facilities that make the model equally easy to use as in an environment that's natively based on that model. This is a great advantage as you can mix the models to fit the situation at hand. But it is _not_ possible without higher order functions, closures, and such. And it is very hard when you break RT. As a result, I value these features / techniques quite high. (RT is also one kind of encapsulation. For example, the programming environment of Ocaml does not enforce RT, but I often end writing referentially transparent programs anyway, because that provides better functional (= "has something to do with how it works") encapsulation.) > > You seem to be thinking of functions as somehow "nested" by definition: > > there is always an outer function (caller) and an inner one (callee). > And with one entry point, one exit point - yes, pretty much. If they > don't do this, then it would be better (IMHO) to call them coroutines: Scary how it always comes down to terminology. I do call them coroutines if I have to stress their mutual working, but they're functions as well, because, well, that's what the partipants of coroutines are. Maybe I'm some kind of weirdo, but in my programs different kinds of coroutines are so common that there is no sense separating them from other stuff. > > But this is a notion created by strict evaluation. In a purely > > functional environment, the evaluation just forms dependency graphs > > between its elements. Surprisingly, it is possible for two mechanisms > > that provide well-defined subresults (for example, functions that return > > infinite lists) to be interdependent. > I'm lost. What I take from this is that you mean to say that a purely > functional environment must have lazy evaluation, and that eager (and > maybe even normal-order?) evaluation is a kind of degenerate case. That > hardly seems fair (wouldn't a purely pure functional framework leave the > order of evaluation undefined, i.e. non-deterministic?), but I'm probably > misunderstanding you. Interesting point. Well, in a way eager evaluation is a degenerate case of lazy evaluation in a purely functional environment, because the only difference between these two is that there exist cases where eager evaluation does not produce a result whereas lazy evaluation does. (By the way, I don't know what "normal-order" evaluation is.) I've seen it defined somewhat like this: "Lazy bind": a >>= \x -> b x = b a "Strict bind": a >>= \x -> b x = _|_ if a == _|_ b a otherwise You're right that I slipped in "lazy" when I was talking about "purely functional". Of course, strict environments allow the programmer to _think_ on the level of dependencies as well, but you bump into the restriction above surprisingly often. Lazy evaluation has a special role as it is guaranteed to produce a result whenever it's possible. > But - if two sets of functions are interdependent, then how can *either* > be referentially transparent? "Surprisingly" might be an understatement. This is the point I'm trying to make. For functions, for example like this (":" is cons): peer1 (message_from_peer2 : rest_of_peer2) state = produce_message_peer1 message_from_peer2 state : peer1 rest_of_peer2 (next_state_peer1 message_from_peer2 state) peer2 (message_from_peer1 : rest_of_peer1) state = produce_message_peer2 message_from_peer1 state : peer2 rest_of_peer1 (next_state_peer2 message_from_peer2 state) message_list_from_peer1 = initial_message : peer1 (peer2 message_list_from_peer1) The case for sets of functions is essentially an expansion of this. But this is not the only way, only the most obvious one (simple recursion). Also note that we could build a framework to hide these details from the actual production code - they're written out here just to show how it works. > In the above, RT = referential transparency, not real time, in case there > was some ambiguity there. Ah, okay. > Although of course it's hard to see how functions which depend on real > time anything could be referentially transparent, either, at least, > not without measures like timestamping everything. Well, that's why I read it as real time. :) It's true that truly concurrent systems can never fully model sequential ones and truly sequential systems can never fully model concurrent ones. That's why most of my defenses were in the sense of "but we can't actually know whether the world is really concurrent or not"... > > I'm still lost about just what makes you think the world "shows signs" > > of behaving like a system of objects with mutable state. > If I tip over a barrel of wine, the wine spills, and I've changed it's > state. Okay, but this is the language's level of abstraction. I have no objection that _language_ reflect some OO principles (though it often goes above those, with modalities, counterfactuality, historical tenses and such). But what about the particle level? > the imagination. If you don't use Occam's Razor to get rid of them, there > are useless entities hanging around (a barrel which no longer exists and, > due to entropy, would take more effort to re-create, is simpler to treat > as having really changed state.) Really unrelated, but anyway: I find it weird how effortlessly people who apply Occam's razor postulate what is an "entity" to point out useless ones. Haven't you used the object paradigm to define an entity here? Does not the point of having a separate entity for the past barrel wholly depend on the assumption of there being objects with mutable state? Besides, you can't use Occam's razor anyway unless one theory is a strict subset of another. If they're equivalent or if they both have independent areas, there's no telling which of them has more "useless entities". > To take an extreme tangent - worb looks really good for modelling gases, > and terrible for modelling pretty much anything else. (I'd like to point out that worb is extremely bad for modelling gases, too.) > As for Erlang - when I look at the world, I more often than not see things > with a high degree of independence interacting with each other. This is Maybe this is the point, as I do not see it so. > Which brings me back to - I fail to see how functional programming, with > it's emphasis on referential transparency, meshes well with I/O. Assuming > it even can, it seems limited to a certain order of evaluation (lazy) if Well, we probably end repeating the same claims over and over... Lazy evaluation is the least limited order of evaluation from the viewpoint of producing results, and thus I'm not unfoundedly biased. Haskell's I/O model is a rebuild of the imperative one in a purely functional environment, set in purely functional terms. Seeing that the I/O system provides a referentially transparent framework (from the program's point of view) with the facilities for I/O of traditional programming environments, I see it as proof of concept. > to play nice together - modelling an input stream as an infinite list is, > well, putting a lot of eggs in the same basket, since a stream doesn't > have a well-defined memory, while a list does. Well, infinite lists are just one way of expressing input. But I don't understand your point about the memory. If I have a list of input and two functions reading it, i1 : i2 : i3 : i4 : i5 : input to be read... ^_ f1 reading ^_ f2 reading Then why should f2 be concerned about f1 having a reference to f2's input's "history"? From f1's point of view, i1 is forgotten, and from f2's point of view, i1..i4 are forgotten. Having a reference to the original beginning of the input list is the same as writing a stream to a storage buffer whenever it is read, the only difference is that you can leave the memory management to garbage collection... > My conclusion: when modelling something which is I/O intensive, it's not a > crime to decide that referential transparency may not be all it's cracked > up to be. YMMV. Maybe the problem is this: I'm not sure what RT has been "cracked up to be" to you; if my ravings get you to think that I'm overestimating RT then I'm in a pretty strong position that I know better. Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 11 10:05:48 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18M1qe-000HF7-00; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:04:04 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:03:51 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18M1qQ-000HEz-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:03:51 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id gBB83oDO002077 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:03:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18M1kE-0001po-00 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:57:26 +0200 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:57:26 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [functional] Erlang - miscellaneous remarks Message-ID: <20021211075725.GB6934@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20021207155341.22a28dd7.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <20021209154530.GB4954@ling.helsinki.fi> <20021209181738.1958eb3f.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021209181738.1958eb3f.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 06:17:38PM -0600, Chris Pressey wrote: > > > which, by and large, it is. Encapsulation is the most important; the > > > other features of OO are pretty much icing on the cake.) > > Well, you don't miss what you haven't used. I agree with you that OO > > is overrated, but I think encapsulation is not worth much compared to > > virtual binding. > I assume you mean polymorphism - I've never heard the term 'virtual' be > used in a description of OO where it wasn't a buzzword that got added in > when talking about implementation. Well, polymorphism is a lot more general than virtual binding... maybe "dynamic binding" is less of a buzzword? > If someone were put a gun to my head and make me choose either never using > encapsulation or never using polymorphism I would gladly abandon > polymorphism before encapsulation, regardless of the paradigm. I can do I was sloppy in my wording. One cannot abandon encapsulation, there is always some kind of encapsulation. I meant what OO has brought more into encapsulation, is not worth much. > Polymorphism comes down to increasing source code readability at the cost > of ambiguating behaviour - just like overloading operators. Surely you > can see how I might feel that intentionally ambiguating behaviour is > something that should be done sparingly, if at all? I don't think you're talking out of experience. Virtual binding boils down to interfaces. Remember when we talked about behaviour-oriented programming and I said that's what object-oriented programming really should be about? Exactly what should be clear with virtual binding is behaviour, as client code calling virtually bound functions (calling via interfaces) doesn't have anything else to depend on. You can achieve the same result in Erlang with standard messages understood by many different receiver variants... > > Things such as higher-order functions and closures actually > > raise the programmers possibilities of expressivity. I would add to my own words this: the real reason why I'm concerned about expressivity is that concise languages add (at least my own) productivity. I'm not talking about languages like Perl, where a couple of most common idioms are brief and everything else is as complicated as in languages like Java. (They do have short and cryptic names, though.) I'm talking about features like pattern matching, closures, type deference and such that enable the programmer to write structurally concise programs. > > In other words: Erlang's philosophy achieves productivity by > > constraining"bad use" of the language. OO and functional philosophy do > > that but they also provide the programmer with new tools and means for > > expressing programs. > But you don't need the whole philosophy to just introduce a new tool. The Oh, but you do. Because most tools require you to know how to use them, and the deepest of tools have applications that are really, really hard to find. As witness monads: they are a simple construct built from higher order functions, but they provide almost endless expressivity. However, higher order functions had been around for a long time before people found out how to use monads to structure programs. > more you can avoid labelling/buzzwording things, the less chance people > will get 'happy' over them, psychologically speaking. Erlang is a neat counterexample to this. :) > encapsulation's job to enforce it. The most expensive bugs I've seen > first-hand, have been ones where something was poorly encapsulated. Poor encapsulation never triggers problems by itself, so you are at an option about where to attribute the bug. I could also say that the most expensive bugs I've seen have been in code that breaks referential transparency :) (but this is a stale argument, as RT is a kind of encapsulation) Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 11 11:01:03 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18M2hi-000HZh-00; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:58:54 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:58:41 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18M2hU-000HZb-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:58:40 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id gBB8weDO023094 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:58:40 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18M2bH-0001qg-00 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:52:15 +0200 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:52:15 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [fromage] Fromage (temptative) spec & C(++) interpreter Message-ID: <20021211085215.GB7086@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <3DF5C0C4.34550DB9@decis.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DF5C0C4.34550DB9@decis.be> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang These clarifications are very helpful thank you. They explain two points to me that I was previously unsure about: (1) nesting of different kinds of parentheses is significant but only with respect to the same kind of parentheses; (2) the I/O model. The instruction set is horribly redundant, but hey, what the hell... Panu -- personal contact: atehwa@iki.fi, +35841 5323835 work contact: pkalliok@ling.helsinki.fi, +35850 3678003 kotisivu (henkkoht): http://www.iki.fi/atehwa/ homepage (technical): http://sange.fi/~atehwa/ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Dec 11 19:28:47 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18MAcu-000Jeh-00; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:26:28 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:26:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg3.saix.net ([196.25.240.75]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18MAca-000JeY-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:26:08 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p95.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.95]) by ctb-mesg3.saix.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A051FAD91 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:25:30 +0200 (SAST) Message-ID: <033801c2a139$09cc31a0$5f81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers (Home)" To: References: <20021207162359.2ed134b2.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Subject: [lang] Re: [tarpit] idea Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:25:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004B_01C2A13A.5AFE5E30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18MAca-000JeY-00*ZlIlKZQf4lQ* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18MAcu-000Jeh-00*3as2xBXkGEs* This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C2A13A.5AFE5E30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nice! Base on Forth. Have you written an interpreter for it yet ? Kind Regards, Lennie De Villiers EMail: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Web: www.lando.co.za/Lennie CV/Resume: www.lando.co.za/Lennie/CV.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- I haven't had many ideas for esoteric languages lately - mostly I've = been occupied writing merely arcane applications. But here's one. It = looks like it's severely broken, but then, so is SMETANA, and if this can = serve as raw meat for some refinement that is actually TC, then I've = contributed something. The basic constraint is this. Design a language where the only datum = that any given function can access is the call stack. The call stack = contains information on what functions led up to calling the current function = (and possibly the position within the calling function where they were = called) - but no arguments or any other data. To demonstrate, I'll borrow a bit of FORTH syntax, namely : function-name instruction instruction instruction ... ; And for convenience, a word can contain spaces and other funky = characters if it's quoted with '', and the main program is assumed to be = implemented with a function called 'main'. First, to define primitives, it's important to note that they do not = get pushed onto the call stack like a function would. Let's define a = single primitive which pops a function name off the call stack, prints it a = la your typical debugging output tool, and pushes it back onto the call stack. Now we can write Hello World thusly: : main 'Hello, world!' ; : 'Hello, world!' print ; Pathological... what if we want to do computation? Well, if we define 'add' to pop two function names off the call stack, sum them (treating them as integers,) and push the result back on the call stack, we get: : main 2 ; : 2 3 ; : 3 add ; : 5 print ; Again, fairly pathological, since we have to know the result before we write the code :) Although if in doubt we could do something like: : 4 print ; : 5 print ; : 6 print ; : 7 print ; etc, just to cover our asses. But this obviously isn't going to work = for non-trivial cases. And that's pretty much where I hit a brick wall. The next logical = step seems to be to be able to manipulate function names, e.g. pop two = function names off the call stack, concatenate them, and push the result back = on.=20 But what if you want to prepend '_' to two different function names? = The function '_' has to be able to call both of them, and they both have = to call concat. I doubt this is feasible. But if someone has understood = it this far and wants to try to find a way that doesn't immediately smack = of 'cheating' - go for it!=20 -Chris --=20 To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C2A13A.5AFE5E30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nice! Base on Forth.
 
Have you written an interpreter for it = yet=20 ?
 
Kind Regards,
 
Lennie De Villiers
 
EMail: ddevilliers@lando.co.za
We= b: www.lando.co.za/Lennie
CV/R= esume: www.lando.co.za/Lennie/CV.h= tm
 
I haven't had many ideas for esoteric languages = lately -=20 mostly I've been
occupied writing merely arcane applications.  = But=20 here's one.  It looks
like it's severely broken, but then, so = is=20 SMETANA, and if this can serve
as raw meat for some refinement that = is=20 actually TC, then I've contributed
something.

The basic = constraint=20 is this.  Design a language where the only datum that
any = given=20 function can access is the call stack.  The call stack=20 contains
information on what functions led up to calling the = current=20 function (and
possibly the position within the calling function = where they=20 were called)
- but no arguments or any other data.

To = demonstrate,=20 I'll borrow a bit of FORTH syntax, namely

: function-name = instruction=20 instruction instruction ... ;

And for convenience, a word can = contain=20 spaces and other funky characters
if it's quoted with '', and the = main=20 program is assumed to be implemented
with a function called=20 'main'.

First, to define primitives, it's important to note = that they=20 do not get
pushed onto the call stack like a function would.  = Let's=20 define a single
primitive which pops a function name off the call = stack,=20 prints it a la
your typical debugging output tool, and pushes it = back onto=20 the call
stack.  Now we can write Hello World thusly:

: = main=20 'Hello, world!' ;
: 'Hello, world!' print ;

Pathological... = what if=20 we want to do computation?  Well, if we define
'add' to pop = two=20 function names off the call stack, sum them (treating
them as = integers,)=20 and push the result back on the call stack, we get:

: main 2 = ;
: 2 3=20 ;
: 3 add ;
: 5 print ;

Again, fairly pathological, since = we have=20 to know the result before we
write the code :)  Although if in = doubt=20 we could do something like:

: 4 print ;
: 5 print ;
: 6 = print=20 ;
: 7 print ;

etc, just to cover our asses.  But this = obviously=20 isn't going to work for
non-trivial cases.

And that's pretty = much=20 where I hit a brick wall.  The next logical step
seems to be = to be=20 able to manipulate function names, e.g. pop two function
names off = the call=20 stack, concatenate them, and push the result back on.
But what if = you want=20 to prepend '_' to two different function names?  The
function = '_' has=20 to be able to call both of them, and they both have to
call = concat.  I=20 doubt this is feasible.  But if someone has understood it
this = far and=20 wants to try to find a way that doesn't immediately smack = of
'cheating' -=20 go for it!

-Chris

--
To unsubscribe send a mail to = listar@esoteric.sange.fi = with a=20 body of:
unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via=20 lang]
unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via=20 misc]




------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C2A13A.5AFE5E30-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Dec 12 11:36:02 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18MPiR-000M9D-00; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:33:11 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:32:58 +0200 (EET) Received: from 93.208-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be ([194.78.208.93] helo=decis.be) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18MPi8-000M92-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:32:52 +0200 Received: from decis.be ([192.168.0.20]) by decis.be ([194.78.208.93]) with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v6.5.0.R) for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:32:40 +0100 Message-ID: <3DF8598B.355657CA@decis.be> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:40:27 +0100 From: Frederic van der Plancke Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [Fromage] desobfuscated interpreter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-Sender: fplancke@decis.be X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18MPi8-000M92-00*vSDHCOZulIg* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18MPiR-000M9D-00*hHY9/vvCErA* /* Here is a desobfuscated version of the original Fromage interpreter: !!! not compiled, not tested, not guaranteed. * added comments, reorganized layout (manually) * renamed all local variables (except 'c') * extracted the initialization code out of the for(;;) instruction * NO other code changes; in particular, I kept all nice little commas, functional if-thens ?:, and lack of parenthesis to highlight non-obvious operator order. (I compensated with spaces in a few cases). The order of declaration of variables is unchanged. Conclusions: * the data array in unlimited to the right and initialized to zero; going left from the original position is forbidden (may crash the system); * our understanding of the behaviour of () and [;] and {} looks correct (but I haven't studied the program in depth enough to definitely conclude) * the program does not check against multiple ';' that refer to the same '[' ']' block, nor against unbalanced () [] {}. * bits 8 and 9 are never toggled on. bit 0 is indeed most significant bit of input/output. * There are quite a few interesting idioms here. Remember that a true condition has value 1, a false condition has value 0. And keep a list of operator precedences at hand. Perl practice is a definite plus. */ #include #include #include int main(int argc, char**argv) { int c; char *prog, bitmask, *data; FILE *progfile; ptrdiff_t new_br_depth,bitvalue,old_goto_endbr,old_br_depth,old_p_depth, proglen,datalen,new_p_depth,lastbitindex,bitindex,old_cb_depth, new_cb_depth,pc,new_goto_endbr; /* // bitindex : bit index (in data) == position in the virtual bit data array // lastbitindex : idem (valid when the overall loop begins) // bitmask : mask to read current bit in actual data[] array // bitvalue : value (0 or 1) of bit at current data position // data : data array (sequences of chars that represent 8 data bits each) // datalen : length of data array (data) in bytes // c : current instruction (character) // pc : index of current instruction in program (prog) // prog : program array, only contains what has been needed so far // proglen : length of prog = number of instructions read so far // old_*_depth, new_*_depth : // * depth of inclusion of parenthesis (*=p), curly brackets (*=cb), // square brackets (*=br); // * old_*** is the only value that lives across loops, it is non-null // only if we actually have to skip p or cb or br. // * new_*** holds the new value for old_***, subject to transformations. // old_goto_endbr, new_goto_endbr: // * 1 if we must go to next ']', 0 elsewhere. // * old_*** and new_*** are respectively the inter-loop and the // temporary values, as above. */ prog=data=NULL, c=old_goto_endbr=old_br_depth=old_p_depth=proglen=datalen=lastbitindex =old_cb_depth=pc=0, progfile = --argc ? fopen(argv[1],"r") : stdin; for(;c-EOF;) { pc') - !(c-'<')) / 8 < datalen || ( data=realloc(data,++datalen), data[datalen-1]=0 ), bitvalue = !(data[bitindex/8] & (bitmask = 1 << 7-bitindex%8)), /* warning: here bitvalue == *opposite* of current bit value */ c-'[' || (new_goto_endbr += bitvalue, ++new_br_depth), bitvalue ^= c!=':', /* now, bitvalue == new bit value */ old_cb_depth ? (new_p_depth=new_br_depth=new_goto_endbr=0) :old_p_depth ? (new_cb_depth=new_br_depth=new_goto_endbr=0) :old_goto_endbr ? (old_br_depth= (new_br_depth ? new_br_depth<0 : new_goto_endbr) ? (old_goto_endbr=0) : new_br_depth, new_cb_depth=new_p_depth=0 ) :(old_goto_endbr=!!new_goto_endbr) , pc += (old_cb_depth = new_cb_depth *= new_cb_depth>0) ? -1 :(old_p_depth = new_p_depth *= new_p_depth>0) ? 1 : old_goto_endbr || ( /* Here if bitindex is 8 or 9, then bitvalue=1, because bits 8 and 9 of data[] are never toggled. Hence the "& bitvalue" parts of the tests are redundant (they better be, if the spec is correct !) */ bitindex==8 & bitvalue ? putchar(*data) :bitindex==9 & bitvalue ? *data=getchar() :(data[bitindex/8] = data[bitindex/8] & ~bitmask | bitvalue * bitmask) , lastbitindex=bitindex, 1 ) ); } argc && fclose(progfile), exit(0); } -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Dec 14 03:00:10 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18N0c6-0003OA-00; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 02:57:06 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 14 Dec 2002 02:56:53 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18N0bm-0003O1-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 02:56:46 +0200 Received: (qmail 6642 invoked by uid 1001); 14 Dec 2002 00:56:27 -0000 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 18:56:27 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [tarpit] idea Message-Id: <20021213185627.1e4edcb5.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: <033801c2a139$09cc31a0$5f81ef9b@lennie> References: <20021207162359.2ed134b2.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> <033801c2a139$09cc31a0$5f81ef9b@lennie> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18N0bm-0003O1-00*U1zEui.fId6* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18N0c6-0003OA-00*pV2j.EXyROo* On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:25:52 +0200 "D De Villiers (Home)" wrote: > Nice! Base on Forth. > > Have you written an interpreter for it yet ? > > Kind Regards, > > Lennie De Villiers No, it's too crippled so far to be much fun. I can't think what to add to it. Lambda functions add virtually nothing to it, since lambdas aren't named, and the function name is the primary way to convey any information at all... Nested functions look better, since they have local names, but I still don't think they add quite enough. Being able to push arbitrary values on the call stack probably goes too far in the other direction, it makes it too much like a "normal" data stack. I think GOTO might have some merit here: it would let a subroutine return to any of its callers, without popping off the call stack frames. Maybe I'll work on it this weekend. Being a crippled version of Forth, maybe "Tird" would be a good name :) -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Dec 14 16:24:02 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18NDAj-0005Gd-00; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:21:41 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:21:28 +0200 (EET) Received: from relay-5v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.110]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18NDAP-0005GU-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:21:21 +0200 Received: from club-internet.fr (lcbv4-2-167.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.93.167]) by relay-5v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB551768 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:21:09 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3DFB3E4C.4844E344@club-internet.fr> Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:21:00 +0100 From: Laurent Vogel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [fromage] updated debugger Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------18BEA548359437053E55711F" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18NDAP-0005GU-00*kh9Wy2fwEkA* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18NDAj-0005Gd-00*xLNaciudIAs* Il s'agit d'un message multivolet au format MIME. --------------18BEA548359437053E55711F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, for what it's worth, here is my version of a Fromage interpreter and debugger, cleaned and updated following recent discussions. I don't have time to put it on a web page now, so at least it is accessible this way. Laurent --------------18BEA548359437053E55711F Content-Type: application/x-compressed; name="fromage-dbg-1.1.tgz" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="fromage-dbg-1.1.tgz" H4sIABI8+z0AA+0aa2/bSK5fT0D+A+Nqa3ljx3aere0Y7Xa7iwLF9XB32C9JdiHLY1uNLKka qYkv6/3tR85LI8dJu722d8CJaGNphuRwSA7JmdEsS5b+nHWmk3n30VeCXu+od3p8jL+93unJ Ef32sUm8K3iECKcnJ4fHJ8fY3z86Oe0/guOvJZANBc/9DOBR5BcZi/N78V5Ml2Ec8jzzc1Zk /FuI9i1gZtlfPe+n0ZcdA639gP0Pev2D49L+1N/Hv6ePoPdlxdgO/+f2f7wL3YJn3SgJ/Kg7 CeNuyrIIOteO8xhKh4COfoEwzlmWZgz/gh9PYcomxXzOMucxUngvW3CANoU3Up3wSzJnRB0k H1jGpjBZQb5g8PPf3gA28DCJ4QCSDCKf+CEH3drf7wNA/wh+ZAFbTrCT+AqpmJ8jcz7A5w4k aY7ofgSvu2+B3eQsFuQ+h2nIg4JzHBTfadClH0ZhPIcIzSho8Y1xFC3OfbQt9jS/b+L8BDJP iixg2Dll4GcMJhnzr9IEZ8+RFsCzGiDwccSIJzBB5OmUhswgY0uc9FQoDrnyEDkRZ62wluMU HAfKszDIh46zXIEbxmmRR2yWwxk0m8OyDdWDuj6DntU28fNgIdpQHniM00TrzHBcf0qTEePO wohJ1mJYg12ikwy2WALZR3EZDzR6FZlluBRQ44jgpzgB9r5gccC4HGeSRCRo46J3eHh+umxI geMkW5pWahStLJl98KOCiZ7D09PGkMYiaV69/Qlk1/WCxRAnVfuSHyiRwmUasSX6Gs2ZSEsn SGaigSiXaMeojVTIDq059XP//NklnJ1BH5nMxHjTcIoD5ZAEQZHtSz0nyM0oTQj9nGhzf8Kx 2WvhRHgxQb3g0vDcFtw6AMuV584QJWqdPf9tiA1phl4CoxEOMnQE6gAmMziHkfRePoZLGJGp xo5qIZ8bIGlniuMK09BLPqKBx9gwQ9cVk8OGAhePoCnI2fNEjSeMimI4IEG/w3UYReSpAg0p cK3MkihKrvlA4x6Ahl6v/Le/v68RnrYPDIIEiVM+V5EHh9uQzf9N5HZ/G7L6K5E7PqKQP774 6z9eP+CUiMkUZtWFsGOmtI79tGpALCu5cPJFyOXqQashLrsJc6/fQmfRxh06a3JDQehn84J8 UK2BWewvmVrC1wtk4vVgBChZhLnm+Yu///yL9hRcaojHFyEuedFB/kJjYPMfwLu/drpdiQsg OWEPmr7Z1K2SCy1VdEQMJojQ7rX7raHqlQOYrrKDRgmAvYfm1GIGKlLs7Wm8NbCIl8h+FbmM FP17CFiVQC+p+9BnFXShzbsakiBXnTAKeLtyUUwRv1WiJCmLvZ9ev3nVbozcWaNFgXkaMmhg yBZrHfuRYgDu7kXcKOmkrkdEObblATtG75+B+1tJs3buwdFhbriBoAN4v+wIooQzIXDrHv3k Ff1YKkAf2z0zTqajlKWLtOCLsqNNuaQ6XeN03nmv8+xyr4W+d+v85S6lixJjc+TzXDkrSdZs iVbbewel936CFNZcfdgVDNp3GegpV+juGEFwYls0ZdTq6L8VVFuhah3L5SbpzNJ2fWpYYwzY QqG14QirnG2xihitkkp6bYx8KqjosELVB77JvEr1BiLerkVGfS6LF5WDbkFFk5WsEZTjv3z7 46s2kOeTWPd6P3VaK0D5PhGPW/guFcO75xdYquP/48tudy7VIY0pRGmbtYCT7l58b9lNyt4Z 37qrdenu0gDuSkYaehPODzSuUAPNcsmobPAw6rdkIcElA3pMy3roBh87qnlVNifpUCZtd54k VJWQRM1BE87G0G9D89w8XZqnsXkaqSei8Uxryzzdmqe1eRpqmrWqDGZJdi2GxQdvONRKcW90 gCWvuYHxGUQsnucLcIU2z93VpaXAG1mD6FfSmX4h+hXRax8T9EgLxvVF7uq1DMna1n+SWvnB jN12b9qgFwsW+0UWi5FIj2TIJF239AIQ85z4wdX2iXY69kRH0LPmtQLdqyci+z8mu1KJUpln 66yz4V+fPz+oTBC3E6lJ2uFQPbxTxeFjrB2m7IZ2D2ZVK5TY2E6neyoL5NvEvJHW3JBQYYj8 rXKBlgA17e1tFAIxRRZbmzSSq0c/d99dWqrdBZMf40o+fldawHC2eVBSESYRmHaSqw63t2cN uDau+k77uTJHbLuDmYFB9ylhNnEdmZaJaoEijhjnnq44lO3WKi4LQrn5IM4pcUY1PnkCGwQK E7V67oaXlTaxSXmYWmjStBk9WkRCVVLoX3EaJqOlMK720iStJGT2CQ3XV4FYv0/wfcv0ZaWI C4TjFtSOsTiI9LPvm0Od3GQDjkkDCUdryAUoRpIK0KskbKuVhY+tzlH7SExeOGtDTHebNJtM yqXWw8XW0nEOza2YKbPe0FLeJ2U9wLQ07KcMiGu7bxMbu34a8Z4k/pPWkHmbsjVFi6TIcTvo 6O2gr7eCJIWor7XvKK5vixwLwgE0G8bPggUV7C2qpDD1XjQvrYyqqC4uXF8RWJUT5oLDA+m7 MMJseXBirTBBOfMa3wWNNnJX60x7ySbWxcV3vcOkgbndb9nLWI3fVKqpVFD2CJrORNEw9qRW SNTyZMNkC/sApFI3r20agSCLLEVoukRNbcXEyumJKbTvGaeqDGttV0xmKeA1sRmbfcN6G/vR 2A7DJgoblOruaKu4HxEYNuKI2Vbq9axpsdrWWa/CcAuixFKZMcmmnrCksiLPWWqsiAmWTDE2 tsBQZxc3KTmka1ckWMSV20tZQmI4bvdKDzPerJiPbOZ2BkmrBYUyS4o1+9zPww/M2tTpevG+ MQYVZxLR/Gl1k52XDKwygOBu9n66kbOFBHQIVDVrDntWMtosckQUyfXKKzMJivbsrmi0tioZ X+21f/8ddmHLYrszi0+dB0iJTzsoM7ljDk/sSYlpjceViVplA5E+E3RCvMo2196wlYi96vra wJTaSwmxj9Wffr3f0OcVQxvqSi1FeonYBxbZy1BUR1Rtio6xjS9Ud+2VdSoo+r09qA493EDo dGyEy6bNQm2wzZDiuJICu8IeluzW907XM9PdMqkHpqQm5Nw/G6+50V2dS6tZppctcq0/Uy6x 03hYsPXDgt0+LNjwqyns/GG5LjfkckqeGHj1o7ORkISQ6Ch0ONDkTXlej2nGL6IcgmS5pFua kMugvbk9o12NllmkjWxutiSy5cpKYZUEdnUn7NJezQq4eutWzggEuz+2nyXQtK7uHkCV61zK 5vYrDCVVpRaQoyil2FVLics3j0+TIq4cSpoWMaqoq/BXHbxW4oHX6Sjk8Vk1IpDCvc0Fqn1N yhF/Czm0g9DBiLu6s9lbiX2LQKgG+ar81tHatpnMrZlsiHl7d8RdOaH/YLz3FuMNR6vgTZp3 PWhlJNQHdarf7KGwzz6pqrL84U+wnLKI5WyD81augcW1qgmptV3YvtP7uLuxjXWqLqL0hZ+O EXxAN1Ion7iNUo1jR7Zg/PDj8rJ1yoJwib9xIa5mxcWTz801iKPJ+VhcnoI3YQv/Q5gUGZ2Q TDIM4SyXV3uSf5oxjoQtuoHiajJIJn4kRh4uGafjyFh3o6+HkbjWot2bliVY+PGccfCmibzE 2SCfg+Yr6VGZwUJeC5dMBA1hB4hNF8RhXDB8ndDYDI3gWxfCdL8cFJm47xZMwMOWrex+MC7B P4/Be2TwvghzTAKljcg6bJnm8m4dVUma5nbsZzcsKOiuz7sO84UeTNt2hrZdtfbBUXdd5rBG pxX3Sm3iSneqppHS92in99/+qKGGTwb7+5+ArpGxIt+fZV90DPr+5+To6N7vv45O+ub7n9Pe AeKf9g4P6u9/vgW8fPFP88mNCMfiREOeRsm7cor4FEKSeMcRH8akGPtnoXCW2PrYIuQ7juCg vz8R3xoQhfyOI5lBwCKTMmKKbsj2XyxLdiia0RcY15hDRDymSEWhKyeGxGNSzGZMJA9iIsno UweOVTQKhozEUUYRy/A/FVddYS4FZ6B4UXLI1FU/V1/67DhbOe44YwVY5A9uz0eD8WB9uVPH thpqqKGGGmqooYYaaqihhhpqqKGGGmqooYYaaqihhhpqqKGGGmqooYYaaqihhhr+F+Dfr9YQ MwBQAAA= --------------18BEA548359437053E55711F-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Dec 15 03:35:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18NNeg-0006Oo-00; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 03:33:18 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 15 Dec 2002 03:33:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from [65.162.43.69] (helo=luminet.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18NNeM-0006Of-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 03:32:59 +0200 Received: (from dseaman@localhost) by localhost (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA00126 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:49:46 -0600 Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:49:46 -0600 From: David Seaman Message-Id: <200212150149.TAA00126@luminet.net> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [tarpit] idea X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18NNeM-0006Of-00*k5KtFRt1fAc* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dseaman@luminet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18NNeg-0006Oo-00*m8ezaMsCE3E* I was thinking of something like your GOTO as a suggestion for your language. I had in mind something like a "suspend" in Icon, or a coroutine, where it would return to its caller but leave itself on the stack. Unfortunately that makes it too easy to push a data value; all you have to do is "declare" every constant by making it call its caller. One idea I had along those lines, though, is to have the language define every positive integer as a function that suspends itself, then suspends the previous integer (except 1, which would only suspend itself). Then if you had some way of marking the point of resumtion and resuming the function you called, you could write functions to add and multiply by calling and resuming the numbers either sequentially or nested, until they generate all their results, and having a print function that measures the size of its stack. An idea I had before I came up with that was to have a way of assigning functions to their names, maybe as part of arithmetic operators, so for example, if I subtract 1 from 99, I also have to specify a function-- say, 99--to be assigned to the result. Anyway, those were just some of my ideas. Good luck on this! David S. Chris Pressey wrote: On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:25:52 +0200 "D De Villiers (Home)" wrote: > Nice! Base on Forth. > > Have you written an interpreter for it yet ? > > Kind Regards, > > Lennie De Villiers No, it's too crippled so far to be much fun. I can't think what to add to it. Lambda functions add virtually nothing to it, since lambdas aren't named, and the function name is the primary way to convey any information at all... Nested functions look better, since they have local names, but I still don't think they add quite enough. Being able to push arbitrary values on the call stack probably goes too far in the other direction, it makes it too much like a "normal" data stack. I think GOTO might have some merit here: it would let a subroutine return to any of its callers, without popping off the call stack frames. Maybe I'll work on it this weekend. Being a crippled version of Forth, maybe "Tird" would be a good name :) -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 16 11:34:02 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Nrah-0009zx-00; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:31:11 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:30:58 +0200 (EET) Received: from oe67.law7.hotmail.com ([216.33.236.206] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18NraL-0009zU-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:30:49 +0200 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 01:30:16 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [62.127.47.27] From: "Martin Sandin" To: References: <200212150149.TAA00126@luminet.net> Subject: [lang] Re: [tarpit] idea Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:30:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Dec 2002 09:30:16.0944 (UTC) FILETIME=[BE728F00:01C2A4E5] X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18NraL-0009zU-00*xnzp0Kxx/B6* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: msandin@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18Nrah-0009zx-00*BYY9cOFJvmc* I wonder if I posted this before? If I did, I'm eternally sorry. A loop in client side JavaScript. What to call such a beast?=3D) - Martin http://www.guldheden.com/~sandin/amalthea.html -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Dec 16 16:07:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Nvqq-000B1v-00; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:04:08 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:03:54 +0200 (EET) Received: from web14006.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.175.122]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18NvqL-000B1l-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:03:37 +0200 Message-ID: <20021216121649.9112.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.100.133.65] by web14006.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:16:49 GMT Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:16:49 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stephen=20Sykes?= Subject: [lang] Re: javascript loop To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18NvqL-000B1l-00*QUmo8gbtm.o* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18Nvqq-000B1v-00*fIXpPy5MAAg* > A loop in client side JavaScript. What to call such a beast?=) > > Well, it's effectively an infinite loop. It makes Mozilla die (as might be expected), but interestingly IE seems to have some kind of protection - it will display loop 4 times on first execution, and then one less each refresh until zero when javascript seems to be turned off altogether in that browser window. Stephen. +- S.D.Sykes - www.stephensykes.com - +358 50 577 3879 - | "The brighter you are, the more you have to learn." -- Don Herold __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 17 16:24:54 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18OIbc-000GN3-00; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:21:56 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:21:43 +0200 (EET) Received: from relay-2v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.113]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18OIbH-000GMe-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:21:36 +0200 Received: from club-internet.fr (liifi-13-165.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.44.165]) by relay-2v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE5916C9 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:21:31 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3DFF32EE.92CFEBC7@club-internet.fr> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:21:34 +0100 From: Laurent Vogel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [Fromage] bf to fromage compiler Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1D6F29038186A9259B4BA247" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18OIbH-000GMe-00*9lCZJcGyP2A* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18OIbc-000GN3-00*Tiq9U1bd/rM* Il s'agit d'un message multivolet au format MIME. --------------1D6F29038186A9259B4BA247 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was perhaps not absolutely necessary (like other topics on this list anyway), but in case anybody had any doubts about it, here is a (cheesy?) proof that Fromage is Turing-complete, in the form of a brainf*** to Fromage compiler written in sed. The compiler comes in two versions, one for traditional Fromage and one for the extension of the I/O model (allowing to read the whole span of ASCII characters) discussed in this list. You will probably need GNU sed as the lines of the result can be more than 1000 times longer than the lines in the source :-) It could probably be more optimised, but why bother? Laurent --------------1D6F29038186A9259B4BA247 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="bffrc_sed.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="bffrc_sed.txt" # bffrc.sed - a simple brainfuck to fromage compiler # # traditional fromage version - EOF reached when byte 255 is read/ s/[^]+.,<>[-]//g s/>/:c/g s/[;!l(8]]:!l/g s/-/r8:[]!l/g s/\./8>[L:R]!lL{[8[:<>]!L<:l8[:]>!>>R{[c}]/g s/,/:R8<[:]!!(8]>!l8[R>>:<!)>>R{[8>sLR!>}]L:/g 1s/^/R>R/ s/c/8>[:L:R]!>/g s/d/8<[:R:L]!/g s/L/l>>>>>>>/g s/l/<<<<<<<[-]//g s/>/:c/g s/[;!l(8]]:!l/g s/-/r8:[]!l/g s/\./8>[L:R]!lL{[8[:<>]!L<:l8[:]>!>>R{[c}]/g s/,/:R8<[:]!>:<!>]>R{[8>sLR!>}]L:/g 1s/^/R>R/ s/c/8>[:L:R]!>/g s/d/8<[:R:L]!/g s/L/l>>>>>>>/g s/l/<<<<<<< X-Sender: X-Mailer: CalMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20021219170259.BF6F76C227@neuron.neuron1.com> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:02:59 +0000 (GMT) X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18P44c-0007QN-00*NHxEXvFARps* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18P456-0007QX-00*V61no3Py0Dk* hi all i've created the Inline::SMITH module which allows you to use chris's SMITH langauge, inline within a perl script. is based on his smith interpreter, the main difference being input. a string passed from perl to a SMITH routine is used as a stream of bytes which can then be read in using the TTY source. output at the moment is just echo'd. i was thinking maybe output should be collected in a buffer and returned to perl (there is currently no return value). what do you think? a sample script: -------------------------------------------------------------- use Inline SMITH => < Print character to terminal SUB R0, 1 ; -> Decrement character MOV R1, R0 ; -> Is character zero? NOT R1 ; -> Boolean NOT it twice to find out NOT R1 ; -> Result is 1 if true, 0 if false MUL R1, 7 ; -> Multiply result by seven instructions COR +1, -6, R1 ; -> Copy that many instructions forward }} EOF ascii_table(); -------------------------------------------------------------- smith info: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/esoteric/smith/ pod: http://search.cpan.org/author/IAMCAL/Inline-SMITH-0.01/SMITH.pm package: http://search.cpan.org/author/IAMCAL/Inline-SMITH-0.01/ download: http://search.cpan.org/CPAN/authors/id/I/IA/IAMCAL/Inline-SMITH-0.01.tar.gz --cal "just set aside your fears of life" -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Dec 19 22:03:03 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18P6sa-00080N-00; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:02:48 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:02:41 +0200 (EET) Received: from web10904.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.131.40]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18P6sL-00080E-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:02:33 +0200 Message-ID: <20021219200225.74075.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [141.157.160.103] by web10904.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 12:02:25 PST Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 12:02:25 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Connors Subject: Update to the Turing Tarpit To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18P6sL-00080E-00*5Kl5rt8agU6* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: connorbd@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18P6sa-00080N-00*Y8gPA0TP/ig* Well... I don't participate much these days in the Esolang world, but at least a few of you should remember me from Var'aq and a couple of other ideas I kicked around. I've updated my site, the Turing Tarpit, which as far as I know is the second oldest site for esolanging on the net (unless you count the Retrocomputing Museum, which IMHO has a somewhat different mission). A few broken links have been repaired (not sure what to do about Ryan Kusnery's Forbidden message, though), and a link to PerlFS on Sourceforge has been added for those of you who miss assurdo.com. (It's not much of a substitute, sadly...) There's also a little shout out to those who remember the old esolang list on catseye... /Brian ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Dec 19 22:31:30 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18P7K4-00086q-00; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:31:12 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:31:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18P7Jp-00086f-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:30:58 +0200 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gBJKUrv19218; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 12:30:53 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20021219200225.74075.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021219200225.74075.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 12:30:52 -0800 To: Brian Connors , misc@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: Re: Update to the Turing Tarpit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18P7Jp-00086f-00*HA0bPigRSE2* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18P7K4-00086q-00*M4fBMRPvqMk* >A few >broken links have been repaired (not sure what to do >about Ryan Kusnery's Forbidden message, though) Kusnery's whole page is alive and well at http://members.tripod.com/rkusnery/ -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign () Hopeless ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail /\ against gratuitous bloodshed From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 20 01:22:07 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18P9xF-0008Vn-00; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:19:49 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:19:36 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18P9wu-0008Ve-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:19:28 +0200 Received: (qmail 28171 invoked by uid 1001); 19 Dec 2002 23:19:05 -0000 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:19:05 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [tarpit] idea Message-Id: <20021219171905.273b4faf.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: <200212150149.TAA00126@luminet.net> References: <200212150149.TAA00126@luminet.net> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.1 (---) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18P9wu-0008Ve-00*rB/uaqM16EI* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18P9xF-0008Vn-00*CxHozn0lfAs* On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:49:46 -0600 David Seaman wrote: > I was thinking of something like your GOTO as a suggestion for your > language. I had in mind something like a "suspend" in Icon, or a > coroutine, where it would return to its caller but leave itself on > the stack. Unfortunately that makes it too easy to push a data > value; all you have to do is "declare" every constant by making it call > its caller. Yes. > One idea I had along those lines, though, is to have the language define > every positive integer as a function that suspends itself, then suspends > the previous integer (except 1, which would only suspend itself). Then > if you had some way of marking the point of resumtion and resuming the > function you called, you could write functions to add and multiply by > calling and resuming the numbers either sequentially or nested, until > they generate all their results, and having a print function that > measures the size of its stack. OK, if I understand this, this would basically mean using the stack to construct unary representations of numbers? I think I like that. Something like "4 5" would leave 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 5 on the stack, and you could easily transform it into the sum by searching (down) for the first '1' on the stack and replacing it with a '2'. > An idea I had before I came up with that was to have a way of assigning > functions to their names, maybe as part of arithmetic operators, so > for example, if I subtract 1 from 99, I also have to specify a > function-- say, 99--to be assigned to the result. > > Anyway, those were just some of my ideas. Good luck on this! > > David S. Thanks. I'm still not so sure this doesn't just degenerate into 'FORTH where everything is described as being a function', but I'll give it some more thought. -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 20 01:36:26 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18PABX-0008aT-00; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:34:35 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:34:22 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18PAB9-0008aK-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:34:12 +0200 Received: (qmail 28184 invoked by uid 1001); 19 Dec 2002 23:33:51 -0000 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:33:51 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: javascript loop Message-Id: <20021219173351.790d1c52.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: <20021216121649.9112.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021216121649.9112.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18PAB9-0008aK-00*O3D2h3AR4gw* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18PABX-0008aT-00*VWeuelR20BI* On Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:16:49 +0000 (GMT) Stephen Sykes wrote: > > A loop in client side JavaScript. What to call such a beast?=) > > > > > > Well, it's effectively an infinite loop. It works like cascade.bf, and/or like SMITH, and/or like a glider gun - looping by self-replication. I guess there's also looping-with-help-from-the-OS, as in: int main(int argc, char **argv) { exec(argv[0]); } :) -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 20 02:01:12 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18PAZc-0008hQ-00; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:59:28 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:59:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18PAZH-0008hE-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:59:08 +0200 Received: (qmail 28204 invoked by uid 1001); 19 Dec 2002 23:58:47 -0000 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:58:47 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Inline::SMITH Message-Id: <20021219175847.0f14d3eb.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> In-Reply-To: <20021219170259.BF6F76C227@neuron.neuron1.com> References: <20021219170259.BF6F76C227@neuron.neuron1.com> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18PAZH-0008hE-00*WbY9G.u5GoQ* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18PAZc-0008hQ-00*YJXoeRt1xs.* On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:02:59 +0000 (GMT) Cal Henderson wrote: > hi all > > i've created the Inline::SMITH module which allows you to use > chris's SMITH langauge, inline within a perl script. > > is based on his smith interpreter, the main difference being > input. a string passed from perl to a SMITH routine is used as > a stream of bytes which can then be read in using the TTY > source. > > output at the moment is just echo'd. i was thinking maybe > output should be collected in a buffer and returned to perl > (there is currently no return value). what do you think? <> Either that, or (if you're feeling more ambitious) let the user define callbacks in Perl for what happens when the TTY 'register' is accessed. -Chris -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 20 02:45:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18PBHz-0008pp-00; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:45:19 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list sci); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:45:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from h24-70-180-74.wp.shawcable.net ([24.70.180.74] helo=kallisti.mine.nu) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 18PBHk-0008pJ-00 for sci@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:45:04 +0200 Received: (qmail 28260 invoked by uid 1001); 20 Dec 2002 00:44:42 -0000 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:44:42 -0600 From: Chris Pressey To: sci@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [sci] [electronics] component abuse Message-Id: <20021219184442.04e47192.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18PBHk-0008pJ-00*xKJm5LiviSM* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cpressey@catseye.mb.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: sci X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18PBHz-0008pp-00*DIYIgj06I/.* I just built a LED flasher circuit around an LM386 audio amplifier! That's not *too* weird, I guess (it *is* an op amp, after all,) but I thought it was weird enough to not let it go unmentioned. (Especially considering the coincidental part number: I can truthfully say "I have a '386-based LED blinker in my window!" :) I guess the logical next step is to figure out how to use a 4011 chip as an audio amplifier... -Chris From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Dec 20 15:15:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18PMtr-000BLG-00; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:09:11 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:08:58 +0200 (EET) Received: from [64.246.18.86] (helo=neuron.neuron1.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18PMtX-000BL3-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:08:51 +0200 Received: by neuron.neuron1.com (Postfix, from userid 33) id 643586C131; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:08:49 +0000 (GMT) To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Inline::SMITH From: Cal Henderson X-Sender: X-Mailer: CalMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20021220130849.643586C131@neuron.neuron1.com> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:08:49 +0000 (GMT) X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18PMtX-000BL3-00*ltUeQ2h5u9A* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18PMtr-000BLG-00*WJAPf387npw* At 23:58 GMT 19.12.02, Chris Pressey wrote: : <> : : Either that, or (if you're feeling more ambitious) let the user define : callbacks in Perl for what happens when the TTY 'register' is accessed. good idea. version 0.03 of Inline::SMITH has some more IO options: normal input, returned output: my $ret = &my_smith_func({ input => 'blah', }); normal input and output (plus returned output): my $ret = &my_smith_func({ input => 'blah', echo => 1, }); callback'ed io: my $ret = &my_smith_func({ input_callback => \&my_input_func, output_callback => \&my_output_func, }); if you use the new calling format (a single hash rather than a scalar) then echo'ing is automatically disabled. the output buffer is *always* returned a string. search.cpan.org hasn't picked it up yet, but it's in my master CPAN folder: http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/I/IA/IAMCAL/ --cal "i guess sometimes you need the place where you belong" -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Dec 22 12:27:52 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Q3I9-000Gip-00; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:25:05 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:24:52 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Q3Hq-000Gif-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:24:46 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p164.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.164]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with SMTP id gBMAO8ep018324 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:24:10 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <000701c2a9a2$fbd8ca00$a481ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers \(Home\)" To: References: <3DFF32EE.92CFEBC7@club-internet.fr> Subject: [lang] Re: [Fromage] bf to fromage compiler Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:47:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18Q3Hq-000Gif-00*upPBggvdgD.* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18Q3I9-000Gip-00*R7DL2zSrXs.* sed ? GNU sed ? I dont know anything about "sed" Where can I get it ? Kind Regards, Lennie De Villiers EMail: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Web: www.lando.co.za/Lennie CV/Resume: www.lando.co.za/Lennie/CV.htm -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Dec 22 16:26:27 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Q71n-000H26-00; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:24:28 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:24:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from relay-5v.club-internet.fr ([194.158.96.110]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Q71T-000H1x-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:24:07 +0200 Received: from club-internet.fr (lcbv2-1-177.n.club-internet.fr [213.44.12.177]) by relay-5v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C4F41746 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:24:14 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E05CB10.A5FB1F50@club-internet.fr> Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:24:16 +0100 From: Laurent Vogel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [fr] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Fromage] bf to fromage compiler References: <3DFF32EE.92CFEBC7@club-internet.fr> <000701c2a9a2$fbd8ca00$a481ef9b@lennie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18Q71T-000H1x-00*bbRCNZdhUhw* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: lvl@club-internet.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18Q71n-000H26-00*WDZ5mYy1oww* D De Villiers wrote: > sed ? GNU sed ? I dont know anything about "sed" Where can I get it? well, sed is not an esoteric language as such, it is the good old Stream EDitor on Unix (sed descends from ed, the first unix editor, and can be seen as a predecessor of AWK and perl). For sed pointers, see for instance: http://www.softpanorama.org/Tools/sed.shtml regards, Laurent -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 31 14:57:07 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18TLwH-000Cm0-00; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:56:09 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:56:02 +0200 (EET) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18TLw3-000Clc-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:55:55 +0200 Received: from stfu (ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with SMTP id gBVDnNb07694 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:49:24 +0200 Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 01:38:43 +0200 From: "Al. Andreou" To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Esoteric-ish books Message-Id: <20021231013843.0cd1a46d.ee4299@ee.teiath.gr> Organization: TEI of Athens X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.6; sparc64-unknown-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18TLw3-000Clc-00*/OAkqMEsYzE* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18TLwH-000Cm0-00*0GWMR/aAcfo* Hello, list. Can someone provide a list of books that will be useful to the esolang enthusiast with no theoretical CS background; I guess that ``Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs'' would be in the list, but, unfortunately, that's my only guess. Plus, I remember seeing a link about ``Advanced Programming Languages Design'', a book (legally) distributed in PDFs. Care to remind me? Thanks, see you on IRC. -- Al. Andreou | http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Dec 31 16:26:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18TNLH-000D0L-00; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:26:04 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:25:56 +0200 (EET) Received: from mailout04.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.18]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18TNL3-000D0C-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:25:49 +0200 Received: from fwd07.sul.t-online.de by mailout04.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 18TNKy-0002Bi-0C; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:25:44 +0100 Received: from esoteric.holy-unicorn (340009195196-0001@[217.231.36.83]) by fwd07.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 18TNKq-1uf9W4C; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:25:36 +0100 Received: from esoteric.holy-unicorn (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by esoteric.holy-unicorn (8.12.1/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBVEfQHC010986 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:41:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from markus@esoteric.holy-unicorn) Received: (from markus@localhost) by esoteric.holy-unicorn (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id gBVEfP91010985 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:41:25 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:41:25 +0100 From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (Markus Kliegl) To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Re: Esoteric-ish books Message-ID: <20021231154125.A10575@esoteric> References: <20021231013843.0cd1a46d.ee4299@ee.teiath.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021231013843.0cd1a46d.ee4299@ee.teiath.gr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i X-Sender: 340009195196-0001@t-dialin.net X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18TNL3-000D0C-00*8MwozJxenIQ* X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: markus.kliegl@t-online.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18TNLH-000D0L-00*qR8soO93wRk* * Al. Andreou [021231 14:27]: > Hello, list. > > Can someone provide a list of books that will be useful to the esolang enthusiast with no theoretical CS background; I guess that ``Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs'' would be in the list, but, unfortunately, that's my only guess. > Besides looking at many esoteric languages, I'd say looking at "normal" languages and their paradigms and theoretical backgrounds is a lot more revealing and interesting than reading some random CS (theory) books. I personally like Common Lisp, Ocaml, and Mercury a lot. Others on this list seem to favor Haskell, Erlang, Scheme, Forth, etc. Maybe reading about some general concepts like turing machines (or "state" in general), lambda calculus (or the "functional" paradigm), combinators, etc. would be useful. The other popular subject here is of course compilers. Anyway, here's a list of some of the things I enjoyed reading (some may be rather irrelevant to this list): "Why Functional Programming Matters" by John Hughes. http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/hughes84why.html The Principia Discordia :-) search google for many versions "Minds, Brains, and Programs" by John R. Searle http://members.aol.com/NeoNoetics/MindsBrainsPrograms.html "Elephants Don't Play Chess" by Rodney A. Brooks http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/188611.html (I'd recommend reading the last two in that order) "Recursive Functions of Symbolic Expressions and Their Computation by Machine, Part I" by John McCarthy http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/mccarthy60recursive.html "Introduction to Functional Programming" by John Harrison http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Teaching/Lectures/funprog-jrh-1996/ (This probably comes closest to your request for a good book.) The first two chapters of "The Emperor's New Mind" by Roger Penrose might interest you, too. Other people on this list can probably add more. > Plus, I remember seeing a link about ``Advanced Programming Languages Design'', a book (legally) distributed in PDFs. Care to remind me? ftp://ftp.aw.com/cseng/authors/finkel/apld/ I haven't read that myself, so I can't comment on it. > > Thanks, see you on IRC. > Markus