From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 14:56:44 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eDnZ-000MKy-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:55:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:55:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eDm6-000MKd-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:54:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:54:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eDlx-000MKV-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:54:09 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7CBs8U01699 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:54:08 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7CBs7P20826 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:54:07 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:54:07 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: More on Brainfuck Golf In-Reply-To: <20020808121419.2298f6b9.ayzik@shaw.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > I also wrote a Brainfuck interpreter in Python, with rigorous > error checking. It can work both as a stand-alone interpreter I also finished the first version of my "strict" brainfuck interpreter, which is called sbfi. It is written in Ocaml - the source is available at http://sange.fi/~atehwa/obfcg/sbfi.ml And there are precompiled binaries (150k each - ugh!) for Linux and FreeBSD in the same directory: http://sange.fi/~atehwa/obfcg/ > one with the given input). It can also manage extended interpretation, > i.e. evaluating the output of a program as another program, automatically. Nice idea. I'd do the same with pipes, though. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 15:08:18 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eDzP-000MNF-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:08:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:07:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eDzI-000MN9-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:07:56 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7CC7tU06182; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:07:55 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7CC7ss21200; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:07:54 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:07:54 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: "Al . Andreou" cc: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: [list-meta] comp.lang.esoteric In-Reply-To: <20020808091041.A7356@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Al . Andreou wrote: > No, there is not such a newsgroup, but I was wondering if you > would like to see it happen and if you would care to use it > (sort of unifying ...@esoteric.sange.fi and friends-of-brainfuck). There is this small problem that some subscribers are not able to use newsgroups and so having a newsgroup will divide the discussion even more, unless somebody writes a ng-mailinglist gateway... Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 15:16:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eE7P-000MPo-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:16:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:16:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eE6s-000MPa-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:15:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:15:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eE6k-000MPU-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:15:38 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7CCFaU08161 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:15:36 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7CCFaE21285 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:15:36 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:15:36 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [list-meta] Re: braifuck golf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Michael Pruemm wrote: > > P.S. Current leaderboard is: > > Ryan, Nikita 55 > > David, Mtve 51 > > Bertram, Daniel, Al 49 > I have solution in 40 instructions. :-) As you all can see, this contest has a lot of communication overhead, so I propose you use some other kind of media for the communication. Personally I think a wiki would fit it best, but you may come up with better solutions... (In plain English: avoid posting bf golf related scores etc. to the list. Announcing new categories, discussing the system, and discussing individual entries is OK, however.) -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 15:42:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eEWl-000MWG-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:42:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:42:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eEUe-000MVu-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:40:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:40:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eEUW-000MVo-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:40:12 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7CCe6U15058 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:40:10 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7CCe4Q21792 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:40:04 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:40:04 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [list-meta] downtime on Friday... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc was due to upgrading the system and changing its IP address. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 16:32:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eFIS-000Mid-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:31:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:31:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eFHu-000MiR-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:31:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:31:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smarthost2.mail.uk.easynet.net ([212.135.6.12]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eFHl-000MiL-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:31:05 +0300 Received: from mail.datapro.co.uk ([212.74.18.17] helo=will.datapro.co.uk) by smarthost2.mail.uk.easynet.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17eFHf-0008CT-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:30:59 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20020812142123.03993470@hercules> X-Sender: will@hercules X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:30:39 +0100 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: William Wragg Subject: [lang] Brainfuck Golf In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2F4452E; boundary="=====================_1053048403==_" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: will@datapro.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: will@datapro.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --=====================_1053048403==_ Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2F4452E; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have attached a JavaScript Brainfuck Interpreter which I found on www.the5k.org which I have changed to be a strict Brainfuck interpreter. The input criteria is not used, and the array size is set to 32k - as large arrays in JavaScript seem to get really slow - but to let people test their programs I think it would be quite useful. Note I am not a JavaScript programmer, and know nothing about JavaScript, I just used my common sense. So if I screwed up apologies. Regards, Wm. --=====================_1053048403==_ Content-Type: application/zip; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2F4452E; name=sbfi.zip; x-mac-type=705A4950; x-mac-creator=705A4950 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="sbfi.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 UEsDBBQAAAAIAOtwDC1Kje3TiQcAAEEYAAAJAAAAc2JmaS5odG1stVltj9s2Ev7c/RVcB40tyJa9 eek1sig0lxS4Ai0QXHF3HxwXoCTKpi2RKkXZ63Xc335DSrJlW85uF46AjUVy+MwrZ4aKN1dp4t8g 5M0pifQLvCqmEuoHkjAeF+ESMa6ozCSFf71huXhTUuZqowfIDG4HAxSIaNNXUT8kmWKCbwMSLmdS FDxyX4TmGYciEdJ9MTLPOBZcDWKSsmTjpoKLPCMhLWdz9kDdu1fZ/a5kYB7iJowv+8RdsZwpGm0r uNevR6N3744p52JFJZCSULEVrSlj8zQpHbUNhIyoHARCKZG6d9k9ikg+p9EODQaVVYaVspXmoWSZ qlRHccFDrS+674XWdg+9IhJtcCTCIqVcObHD+g84dBLKZ2reX+HXr/7xw499gjldo/dSkk1vZfUz POov8eCuTxvzD1Y/OR7mx8MUv3r7ts/x6GbPPRayt8Cj8cJbjRe2bW3JZDHFo10LwcPLl5mv3zQZ i3uhE86JfK96Cwvj7qRrJRPbzqZ4MT5bnHatba6Bk0k2HdOJ/tGE2WCwO7CCbdktHoEMCZWq1/lZ SiHRAP2HByQhPKQRgngLl1Tltx1rDLFWSL5r0+WhFLLhvnzNVDhvigXL3x3WQ5LT7ouuCzI0XBEB OQWGkbVdMx6JtVOK1v0kILC0LwF2zjgKRURd1LUXdvcz/yTMYdDjTI//S5KCIqJQdlggYAFrNw4k JcszObyuC5bRZsy80QnrvVV+o6mQGwSnhso4gfWDSWpY8xhEHxBt2yD6ePUIpD4RGvFRVNvYq6d1 se8sP72E+5EochGVJjndGgi7hcXgwGJwZ3n8qyxabbHHh1g7x5923QXWodmcnBimeg+GcFxgCuvn W/tdtxFg+oFNS/vOxxtnpV1eneGjONwT3jbCTB7CzDAdlcx2Z/sKnEmRZqD3LzwrFJL0z4JJGjno k6R5jj7oU5IgJdCcJBBvUswkSRG9p2Ghw9Xp9Dsdq02cAk5p98sX+OFFkljbBX6ohDD2qzSycXEq 1OnYKFAbQB+2D3A04MDZ9tKqbNgkN5Z0um7DGqLm9buSjM+cGFT+UAEZpzQVOLBvJILjQ7y+cIg7 P9dmgeObZgmUrggCp0bcDYd1Tt+ncW9YVkD9qquYj1BJA6knRZykFMd1uvcUCRIKCSJSc9y5G42+ 76CyguCRvxfVU/Iw0MOo3vFGbyAJm3Gc0FhBnTDvSmTNDXs+FfQdggBIdIEE0+GRGWUkivTore9V Jdf3gkbpBu1TwqPcGwbH0Gfi1ZOR/3KmxlDno/ZVxkNJtfnrlNdGCnMAXh6o7y4zSr7GKKJXY2Q/ RZ3VSSp/PrvBU5S6HrvJZXYBnUEFS4TIUC+EnorxguZoPWcQVacCIJYjLvjggUphPU2a6r3kNS33 HM1RHhnuR0uP4PRbcCC3REhwinTWgXYOpNWpAzpTnSpBfHHBnk9j6bSwzCBBnXtJ519RKM2V5Igc 5Pk77F60sItYniVkgyIaFDNw2gy0igXqgfvMFEohRVotXE6d3h4kkAh05uD4VZV3QqrV8d9z6AnU HBTbawJqSYqARujqczkQTmZ0pjqZzPxfKZEcRAdAEoDdELBC/9xnp6qIpVpd6AJnBZlR1wuk/5IH eTY+RiNoLmmMO3OlMnc4XK8h+ROV0w110gBehzQXID4Lh0E87Pi/i0KG1BsSH315FCgtsoyqhAS5 Axlz+JcuZlEg7kuon9Bv+/UnANZyODmoRJ2YDff5GMB0qQMLh3O4kmiwZoU4sXWjYvxwqBil5x6r GXVtaq1MNeWFWDmvTOW96Jwa6APf04GFwoTkOQYP6/sh7vwPHA9udWGehUvtYHB9TpG+vUEGYkkC HQ5EfEhNTNB7litNpbtt03nD4dIXnCpEnI5fveUuVG1g6LeUNCNQ7Y0FWZGyvLsrwaLeyOpACvmg xcGdoGxEcNeun4lfv3mDqe8g9K/P3DuaPyxBG/KZTwbTC+u33Y4/h+IsTvz7XBEnfWcKkDScXw3R 70+9wcR2QGBAlnR1CTjzL3nYgOp8SOBs8Kj0HAw3cPD2bkP/pisGbtQ+NgQBjXU2ACJUQDgwdYt+ USiFzJeSJRyMPC9S08fkjYxhxM51GoYLAYecYmarlAyhUV+/rxobNu6i3sSzffCzhcBK0Gpdw/wl rm9DV6LDBco38AAmhkdUZNfkAQy88ufAp1QmX5PrcfLhLOg/z0PAbq8b8kvzoXJgRNAyaCG8Uoy0 SK4mxRY6nMhc3XeTwztJTODtQLzSxCxu5XixiarSoWSzuWoT9KMuz2XB0jXa9cqmRG0yis3tBOpI eX+IfF3bWiA+mZuf/shRdjRfwZCXMN7riw+0dpSjmHGmP159BWb9NAM8q8V43epORe8VNBak5B8Y avx2hKRY5/gdnNia4PqS6RRmks8fOi8829FNawYFFEReJiZc3sHpISrve1VcWh3/8rYw0ZnsPDtD jD7TBO1tWKBjxq8CSxugIZA2eukRhvT3VvzmzdMlZpckvkIPsu9XnxBM4jiY3nzzYKpuAN8onE6s LL5JXBxvbG45Ib4p5/RXED0FKuuPIzfesPyfg/8DUEsDBBQAAAAIAExyDC0M6uxolQMAABIHAAAN AAAAc2JmaV9kZXNjLnR4dJVVTW/bRhC9E+B/GPCSFlDk1oGbwkAPadOiKtrEiJVDT8WSHIkDLXeJ 3aVo5tf3zVKSlRQIUMMwTHF35n3NaNsxPQS/D6anyUSagqTEjmqmLqXh/uZmmqZ16vjusPZhf9Nz X3NYmzic/v1H2p9efX/7uiw21Jkjk+l7di23lDqJtBOLj5w+MQ2nRslTbw5MkshQTEGaREcOUbwj v6Oy+DkYcbuxOaxpi3smBDNTlE+4Eily0gqvbl//8OOK6hFF3ExHY0emxmToY+R2XRZlsVUM+DXU +GHW4oqjejOmzocXkd5ybIIMCZ0r2oC9T0w7H6if6QKiLMQlDkNg/KWpgzwbYv0ILJVDootAa6K/ /Uix86NtlXBtajtTYLMIUhY1oz7TjFMpzMoEaDOsqy4Z/Mv//aO33nzc/v7+w4tHevvr4y8fNg/b zft395SFAGZ0RLtIf5ijeczUFUEY3dmcSwSU9bMGK0iYBDqfjvXi9mSN249mzzRJ6sg7EGXZdwlM 4OrYqKxxVRY+yF6csXjfcpS9g271TB9DDbv+GtlaMKbtPDBB+sHElPUJl8BAGa8SlUXV+JYrqv3T arEA74ZRO2YJzYArQxCjNgrDAtnlnrBqRY0VdbPiJ27GxNXqy2QiEX5MWm8Sa7Uam3CuXS2vcvPs z5WGNaseU4coIBASAe5pYMTaefcSAT+Ksc8KnxRHXVMW1ydM70eXckyl5zVtdp/NjTzPZ+NDQH07 r7ThErey2ImT2N0vgziYJOwalPnmncY6Kbroe6Y6+Cli3qj1AJivT3mIFoZlARBiP2u9VOa4/laZ /wabGt9rh1qspHlJQK81+EliUjUu2bkQXy074SrnZWGllxRzrzzCUdkfDSysLWep9FVA0pi+08fb uzsNT8s7M9qUjYBM5oLUQJ9+SIvKOnZLQPLYOiweHb7APbDFi7P5SKX6ITKrZzD0iYNfsnDeKuqJ zu5k3JLzPNle3wMBGuvm82URx2FA3nO7BQE0M7UP6VpXDbESpeohX867Z0HzdWbiGpBgl8u2fH7I pX0WOPdbaOjSmf0SdQm0SK7hJw4Bx84EU4dguHNjrfUfDxGtSKOrDWa/0TEOpjkwMH2t2PYL1zXI HCMAS14KuHteETT5cFi2OnLd5C2qEdVEKw2YeB4BjRwCCzN32MRAcw4LPzW6UiDHxDXGYI8cWXEH 3dbutEb+xGC77E6FL5S8qTLUsvgXUEsBAhQAFAAAAAgA63AMLUqN7dOJBwAAQRgAAAkAAAAAAAAA AQAgALaBAAAAAHNiZmkuaHRtbFBLAQIUABQAAAAIAExyDC0M6uxolQMAABIHAAANAAAAAAAAAAEA IAC2gbAHAABzYmZpX2Rlc2MudHh0UEsFBgAAAAACAAIAcgAAAHALAAAAAA== --=====================_1053048403==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2F4452E Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 --=====================_1053048403==_-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 16:42:50 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eFSs-000Mlz-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:42:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:42:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eFSk-000Mls-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:42:26 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@[195.130.100.184]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g7CDdUK14241 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:39:30 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g7CDHlC09407 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:17:47 +0300 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:17:47 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: [list-meta] comp.lang.esoteric Message-ID: <20020812161747.A9404@mu.teiath.gr> References: <20020808091041.A7356@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI on Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 03:07:54PM +0300 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc What's with the [list-meta] tag? On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 03:07:54PM +0300, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Al . Andreou wrote: > > No, there is not such a newsgroup, but I was wondering if you > > would like to see it happen and if you would care to use it > > (sort of unifying ...@esoteric.sange.fi and friends-of-brainfuck). > > There is this small problem that some subscribers are not able to use > newsgroups and so having a newsgroup will divide the discussion even more, > unless somebody writes a ng-mailinglist gateway... Yes, I've thought of that, and I don't think it is really difficult (GNU Mailman supports news gateways, if I'm not mistaken). Anyway, as Daniel (I think) said, let's try to unite f-o-b with e.s.f... -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 17:37:28 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eGGR-000Mu4-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:33:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:33:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eGEX-000MtO-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:31:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:31:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eGEO-000MtI-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:31:40 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7CEVQU11419 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:31:27 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7CEVQR23948 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:31:26 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:31:26 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [list-meta] comp.lang.esoteric In-Reply-To: <20020812161747.A9404@mu.teiath.gr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Al . Andreou wrote: > What's with the [list-meta] tag? All postings to these lists should be tagged with bracketed "topics" that describe the posting's general category. As having a newsgroup concerns the future of this list, I think this deserves a [list-meta] tag. > > There is this small problem that some subscribers are not able to use > > newsgroups and so having a newsgroup will divide the discussion even more, > > unless somebody writes a ng-mailinglist gateway... > Yes, I've thought of that, and I don't think it is really difficult > (GNU Mailman supports news gateways, if I'm not mistaken). Anyway, > as Daniel (I think) said, let's try to unite f-o-b with e.s.f... We're probably moving to mailman at some stage. Let's see... I'm far too busy to tinker with these just now. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 18:27:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eH6X-000N5c-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:27:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:27:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eH5z-000N5M-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:27:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:26:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eH5q-000N5G-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:26:54 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7CFQqb06953 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:26:52 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g7CFQqr12644 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:26:52 +0200 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:26:52 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf Message-ID: <20020812172652.B12316@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020808181136.A21461@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi on Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 11:58:54AM +0300 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > > Well, not really - nothing forbids mapping -1 to 255, -2 to 254, -3 to 252, > > etc. -- 8 bits is still enough. > > Actually, as zero is the only "special" number in Brainfuck, you can get > by 128 distinct values only (there's no way for a brainfuck program to > know that, for instance, -64 == +64, without wrapping, which is forbidden > anyway). That's true - but where do you map the (also valid) values 0..255? (Hmm, or did you assume that only -127..127 would be valid - then you're right, of course) Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 19:20:18 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eHvO-0009GR-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:20:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:20:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eHv0-0009Ep-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:19:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:19:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eHur-0009ET-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:19:37 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7CGJZb10970 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:19:35 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g7CGJYk13138 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:19:34 +0200 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:19:34 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. Message-ID: <20020812181934.A13092@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020810155923.39452911.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cristofd@hevanet.com on Sat, Aug 10, 2002 at 05:30:45PM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Daniel wrote: > A possible problem for the next contest: > A common definition of natural numbers, due to John von Neumann, defines > each as the set of all the preceding ones. For instance: > 0 = {} > 1 = {{}} > 2 = {{},{{}}} > 3 = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} > ... > > So the problem would be: read a number and output the definition. > Details: Don't know whether we should include the commas. We'd also have to > specify whether a final return is required, and also the input format > (binary or ASCII, how many digits, is it EOF-terminated, and so on). One > more thing: Since sets are indifferent as to order, perhaps we should at > least allow the reverse order as well, so 3 could be {{}{{}}{{}{{}}}} or > {{{{}}{}}{{}}{}}. (Allowing any equivalent ordering would complicate the > judging, and I don't see offhand that it'd allow for a shorter program.) > Maybe even use, as a second problem: read a definition and output the > number? :) Hmm, I've written a small c program to read such numbers and convert them back to decimal, so we could safely drop the restrictions on the order. (See attachment; the program should work for numbers up to 31, probably even 32. For systems with 64 bit 'long' types, it works up to 35). The problem looks pretty good. The reverse one is probably much more challenging. Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV Content-Type: text/x-csrc; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="neumann.c" /* * echo -n '{}' | t --> 0 * echo -n '{{}{{{}}{}}{{}}}' | t --> 3 * * various error messages for invalid input */ #include char ld[37] = { 32, 0, 1,26, 2,23,27,32, 3,16,24,30,28,11,33,13, 4, 7,17, 35,25,22,31,15,29,10,12, 6,34,21,14, 9, 5,20, 8,19,18 }; // works for exact powers of 2 #define LD(n) ld[(n)%37] unsigned long get_n() { unsigned long mask = 0, tmp; for (;;) { switch (getchar()) { case '{': tmp = get_n(); if (mask & tmp) { fprintf(stderr, "Error: number appears twice in range.\n"); exit(1); } mask |= tmp; break; case '}': if (mask & (mask+1)) { fprintf(stderr, "Error: incomplete number range %lX.\n", mask); exit(1); } else { return mask+1; } default: fprintf(stderr, "Error: invalid character in input.\n"); exit(1); } } } int main() { if (getchar()!='{') { fprintf(stderr, "Error: input does not begin with '{'.\n"); exit(1); } printf("%d\n", LD(get_n())); if (getchar()!=EOF) { fprintf(stderr, "Error: spurious input after number.\n"); exit(1); } return 0; } --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 19:31:54 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eI6d-000Ata-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:31:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:31:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eI4y-000AiE-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:30:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:29:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eI4q-000Ai7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:29:56 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7CGTsb11746 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:29:54 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g7CGTsL13224 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:29:54 +0200 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:29:54 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules Message-ID: <20020812182954.B13092@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020808024525.7319b8f5.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020808024525.7319b8f5.ayzik@shaw.ca>; from ayzik@shaw.ca on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 02:45:25AM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > Ok, how about this: > > 1. The memory tape is infinitely long to the right > 2. Going to the left of the starting cell is an error > 3. Cells can hold values from 0 to 255 > 4. No over- or underflow allowed > 5. EOF = 0 > > The only rule it seems reasonable to argue on (IMHO) is 3 - maybe no > restriction is better. It looks like the majority of us likes rule 3 as it is stated here, so I'll rest my case about negative numbers. http://brainfuck.sourceforge.net/rules.html looks reasonable enough to me. There's another problem with scoring though, what if a program is accepted by the testing program but turns out not to follow the contest's description (maybe in boundary cases, like an input of 255 to the sequence ',+')? Will there be a post contest judgement phase? (This is also a point where keeping more than one submitted entry per contestant could come in handy) regards, Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 19:46:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eIKp-000Ko3-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:46:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:46:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eIKP-000Knx-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:46:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:45:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eIKH-000Knr-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:45:53 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7CGjqU06771 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:45:52 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7CGjo825458 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:45:50 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:45:50 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf In-Reply-To: <20020812172652.B12316@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > Actually, as zero is the only "special" number in Brainfuck, you can get > > by 128 distinct values only (there's no way for a brainfuck program to > > know that, for instance, -64 == +64, without wrapping, which is forbidden > > anyway). > That's true - but where do you map the (also valid) values 0..255? > (Hmm, or did you assume that only -127..127 would be valid - then > you're right, of course) Yes, I meant the latter range. 127 was mentioned as an upper bound earlier in the thread, IIRC. -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 19:47:43 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eILx-000Koh-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:47:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:47:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eILl-000KoZ-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:47:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:47:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eILd-000KoT-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:47:17 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7CGlFU07057 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:47:16 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7CGlEr25464 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:47:14 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:47:14 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. In-Reply-To: <20020812181934.A13092@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > 0 = {} > > 1 = {{}} > > 2 = {{},{{}}} > > 3 = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} > The problem looks pretty good. The reverse one is probably much more > challenging. The number represented by a set is the number of sets it contains... so I don't think it's very hard after all. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 19:54:07 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eIS9-000NOM-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:54:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:53:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eIRp-000MlM-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:53:41 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:53:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eIRh-000MgP-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:53:33 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7CGrVb13113 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:53:31 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g7CGrV013431 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:53:31 +0200 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:53:31 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. Message-ID: <20020812185331.C13092@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020812181934.A13092@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi on Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 07:47:14PM +0300 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hi, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > > 0 = {} > > > 1 = {{}} > > > 2 = {{},{{}}} > > > 3 = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} > > The problem looks pretty good. The reverse one is probably much more > > challenging. > > The number represented by a set is the number of sets it contains... so I > don't think it's very hard after all. Uhm, right - I was still thinking of having to verify the number while reading it ... which would indeed be complicated, given the limited number range, the fact that brainfuck just isn't very capable when it comes to binary arithmetic, and that recursion in brainfuck is quite awkward, too (although quite possible to do). Maybe I'm wrong though. Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 00:27:28 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eMid-0004aj-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:27:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:27:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eMi3-0004ad-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:26:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:26:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eMhu-0004aX-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:26:35 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7CLQOC28213 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:26:24 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:26:11 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: >>> 0 = {} >>> 1 = {{}} >>> 2 = {{},{{}}} >>> 3 = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} >> The problem looks pretty good. The reverse one is probably much more >> challenging. > > The number represented by a set is the number of sets it contains... so I > don't think it's very hard after all. ...or lg(n)-1 where n is number of characters of input. That there are such cheap ways to perform the reverse calculation is the reason I put a :) after the suggestion. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 02:05:02 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eOEz-0004ic-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 02:04:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 02:04:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eOEW-0004iW-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 02:04:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 02:04:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eOEN-0004iQ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 02:04:11 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7CN47C09781 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:04:08 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:03:53 -0700 Subject: [lang] [brainfuck golf] Re: braifuck golf rules From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020812182954.B13092@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > There's another problem with scoring though, what if a program is > accepted by the testing program but turns out not to follow the > contest's description (maybe in boundary cases, like an input of > 255 to the sequence ',+')? Will there be a post contest judgement > phase? I was wondering about that myself. If not a full extra phase, I think we'll at least need the results to be human-revisable in response to objections. (Maybe limit this to the first week after results are posted?) Hopefully this will not actually be used often; people won't try to sneak violations past the machine if they know they'll just get caught by humans afterward. (To a certain extent, it makes sense to design the problems in such a way that the machine can judge them reliably. But I don't like to sacrifice generality for that purpose.) (In this particular case, it might work to go ahead and use 255 as input for one test, let it run a while to see if it gets an exception, then terminate it.) > (This is also a point where keeping more than one submitted > entry per contestant could come in handy) Right, at least the raw code; the rest can be recalculated later if issues come up. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 02:06:38 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eOGc-0004jD-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 02:06:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 02:06:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eOGQ-0004j7-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 02:06:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 02:06:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eOGI-0004j1-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 02:06:10 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7CN67C09976 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:06:07 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:05:54 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: [list-meta] comp.lang.esoteric From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020812161747.A9404@mu.teiath.gr> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Yes, I've thought of that, and I don't think it is really difficult > (GNU Mailman supports news gateways, if I'm not mistaken). Anyway, > as Daniel (I think) said, let's try to unite f-o-b with e.s.f... By the way, what I said was: I know there's a lot of overlap between the lists, but it's far from perfect. But here I meant "perfect" as a synonym for "complete", not containing any value judgements. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 07:04:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eSuZ-0005Gh-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:04:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:03:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eSty-0005Gb-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:03:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:03:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mailout6-1.nyroc.rr.com ([24.92.226.177] helo=mailout6.nyroc.rr.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eStp-0005GV-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:03:17 +0300 Received: from mail1.twcny.rr.com (mail1-0.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.74]) by mailout6.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.6/RoadRunner 1.20) with ESMTP id g7D43DC01679 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from riff ([24.92.246.4]) by mail1.twcny.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:03:13 -0400 Received: from rob by riff with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17eSuQ-0007rs-00 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:03:54 -0400 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:03:54 -0400 From: Rob Speer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. Message-ID: <20020813040354.GA28489@twcny.rr.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Is-It-Not-Nifty: www.sluggy.com Sender: Rob Speer X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rob@twcny.rr.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rob@twcny.rr.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sat, Aug 10, 2002 at 06:09:56PM -0700, Jeff Johnston wrote: > > Could you possibly explain this in a bit more detail? I'm having trouble > seeing how 1 = {{}} .. unless there was some kind of substitution. Do the > { and } have a certain value like .25? What the heck's .25 when you haven't even defined 1 yet? :) In the foundations of mathematics, nothing exists but sets. There doesn't even exist anything for sets to contain but other sets. So your basic building block is the empty set, and every new object has to be made of sets (of sets of sets of...). The purpose of this definition is to define the natural numbers when all you have are sets. Here's how it works. 0 = {} (the empty set) 1 = {0} = {{}} 2 = {0, 1} = {{}, {0}} = {{}, {{}}} 3 = {0, 1, 2} = {{}, {0}, {0, 1}} = {{}, {{}}, {{}, {0}}} = {{}, {{}}, {{}, {{}}}} And so on. At each equals sign I'm just making substitutions with what I've defined already. -- Rob Speer -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 07:53:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eTg7-0005Le-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:53:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:53:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eTfj-0005LY-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:52:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:52:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from fort-point-station.mit.edu ([18.7.7.76]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eTfb-0005LS-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:52:39 +0300 Received: from central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (CENTRAL-CITY-CARRIER-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.72]) by fort-point-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA02673 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (MELBOURNE-CITY-STREET.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.86]) by central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA21454 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (pool-141-154-220-248.bos.east.verizon.net [141.154.220.248]) by melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA15298 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:52:35 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:52:38 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] Round 1 problem double-digit score Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk X-list: misc The length of my program for the set theory problem is now in the double digits. I was traveling today and had a lot of time to kill, and I reached 97. I know Panu doesn't want flurries of score submissions to the list, but I thought I might announce this. -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 08:36:07 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eULM-0005PM-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:35:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:35:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eUKm-0005PG-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:35:12 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:35:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eUKd-0005PA-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:35:04 +0300 Received: from pd6mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd6mr3so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.218]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0R00FHZOUCVC@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:35:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml5so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml5so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.149]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0R00281OUCAS@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:35:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0R003OFOUCDZ@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:35:00 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 22:40:22 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020812224022.48a880ad.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:52:38 -0400 David Greenspan wrote: > The length of my program for the set theory problem is now in the > double digits. I was traveling today and had a lot of time to kill, > and I reached 97. With what input/output rules?... __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 08:52:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eUbW-0005TM-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:52:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:52:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eUbC-0005TE-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:52:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:52:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from fort-point-station.mit.edu ([18.7.7.76]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eUb4-0005T8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:52:02 +0300 Received: from central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (CENTRAL-CITY-CARRIER-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.72]) by fort-point-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA13166 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 01:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from manawatu-mail-centre.mit.edu (MANAWATU-MAIL-CENTRE.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.71]) by central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA22838 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 01:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (pool-141-154-220-248.bos.east.verizon.net [141.154.220.248]) by manawatu-mail-centre.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA17671 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 01:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020812224022.48a880ad.ayzik@shaw.ca> References: <20020812224022.48a880ad.ayzik@shaw.ca> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 01:49:39 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:52:38 -0400 >David Greenspan wrote: > >> The length of my program for the set theory problem is now in the >> double digits. I was traveling today and had a lot of time to kill, >> and I reached 97. > >With what input/output rules?... Single-character, binary input. Braces as output, with the sets output in descending order at all levels. -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 10:04:40 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eVjB-0005hG-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:04:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:04:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eViX-0005hA-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:03:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:03:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eViP-0005h4-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:03:41 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@[195.130.100.206]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g7D70WK16455 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:00:33 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g7CHHQ010271 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:17:26 +0300 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:17:26 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: More on Brainfuck Golf Message-ID: <20020812201726.A10268@mu.teiath.gr> References: <20020808121419.2298f6b9.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020809084455.C347@mu.teiath.gr> <20020809162628.B31243@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020809162628.B31243@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de>; from bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 04:26:28PM +0200 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 04:26:28PM +0200, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > md5sum for my 49 bytes program: > 'good' version: 6a200a99b072da27af815ecda3a083b9 > (and 95 others, among them Daniel's) > 'bad' version: 7b61d506d66f90b443431c3a912108d2 > (and 63 others, again Daniel's is among them) Is this the subtle way of saying "the output of my genetic algorithm has an md5sum of..."? :-) -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 10:05:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eVjb-0005ho-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:04:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:04:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eVjL-0005hQ-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:04:40 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:04:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd3mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eVjD-0005hJ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:04:31 +0300 Received: from pd2mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.110]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0R00L8ZSMVTP@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:56:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml10so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml10so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.80]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0R004LASMW2V@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:56:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0R00GN7SMVQV@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:56:56 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:02:18 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020813000218.565706a3.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020812224022.48a880ad.ayzik@shaw.ca> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 01:49:39 -0400 David Greenspan wrote: > >> The length of my program for the set theory problem is now in the > >> double digits. I was traveling today and had a lot of time to kill, > >> and I reached 97. > > > >With what input/output rules?... > > Single-character, binary input. Braces as output, with the sets > output in descending order at all levels. That works; let's make it "official", any objections? Except for the sets output, which can be in any order. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 10:55:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eWWW-0006DU-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:55:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:55:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eWWC-0006DE-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:55:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:54:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eWW2-0006D8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:54:59 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7D7stC03416 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:54:55 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:54:42 -0700 Subject: [lang] [brainfuck golf] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020813000218.565706a3.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >>>> The length of my program for the set theory problem is now in the >>>> double digits. I was traveling today and had a lot of time to kill, >>>> and I reached 97. >>> >>> With what input/output rules?... >> >> Single-character, binary input. Braces as output, with the sets >> output in descending order at all levels. > > That works; let's make it "official", any objections? Sounds fine. Is the range 0-255, then, or 1-255? -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 11:49:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eXMB-0006O3-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:48:51 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:48:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eXM3-0006Nx-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:48:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list sci); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:48:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.34]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eXM2-0006Nr-00 for sci@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:48:42 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id g7D8mfb14362 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:48:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17eXH9-0001ou-00 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:43:39 +0300 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:43:39 +0300 To: sci@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [sci] Re: [lang] [golf] [foundations of mathematics] sets Message-ID: <20020813084339.GA6985@xandru.it.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: sci@esoteric.sange.fi References: <20020813040354.GA28489@twcny.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020813040354.GA28489@twcny.rr.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@xandru.it.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: sci X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@xandru.it.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 12:03:54AM -0400, Rob Speer wrote: > > Could you possibly explain this in a bit more detail? I'm having trouble > > seeing how 1 = {{}} .. unless there was some kind of substitution. Do the > > { and } have a certain value like .25? > What the heck's .25 when you haven't even defined 1 yet? :) Well, can you not choose whichever urelement you like? (Although 1 seems a more natural choice than .25... :) > In the foundations of mathematics, nothing exists but sets. There > doesn't even exist anything for sets to contain but other sets. So your > basic building block is the empty set, and every new object has to be > made of sets (of sets of sets of...). It has been argued many times, however, that sets are in no way more "basic" than numbers, and the primary reasons for defining foundations of mathematics in terms of sets are (1) bias for logic, (2) some people deem sets' features nice, (3) sets are representationally powerful enough to express most concepts of mathematics other than numbers (like functions etc.), which makes them a tempting choice for a unifying theory. But we would be quite ill adviced to restrict our mathematical thinking only to those models which can be expressed in set theory. Besides, sets themselves (and all sset-like systems, the topoi) can be defined in category theory, while category theory cannot be defined in set theory (this is a point to be argued on). So the different set theories might not represent the most universal non-contradictory theories. Panu From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 18:22:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17edUb-0007jZ-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:21:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:21:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17edRK-0007jM-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:18:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:18:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu ([18.7.21.83]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17edRB-0007jG-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:18:25 +0300 Received: from grand-central-station.mit.edu (GRAND-CENTRAL-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.82]) by pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA09753 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (MELBOURNE-CITY-STREET.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.86]) by grand-central-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA16384 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:14:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (pool-141-154-220-248.bos.east.verizon.net [141.154.220.248]) by melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA19300 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:09:11 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] [brainfuck golf] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > >>>> The length of my program for the set theory problem is now in the >>>>> double digits. I was traveling today and had a lot of time to kill, >>>>> and I reached 97. >>>> >>>> With what input/output rules?... >>> >>> Single-character, binary input. Braces as output, with the sets >>> output in descending order at all levels. >> >> That works; let's make it "official", any objections? > >Sounds fine. Is the range 0-255, then, or 1-255? I vote for 0-255. The numbering does start at 0. And no EOF. My program handles 0-255. And yes, any order for the output sets should be allowed. -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 20:47:45 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eflK-0007y6-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:47:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:47:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17efkP-0007y0-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:46:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:46:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mailout02.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17efkH-0007xu-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:46:17 +0300 Received: from fwd11.sul.t-online.de by mailout02.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17efkD-00034x-08; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:46:13 +0200 Received: from esoteric.holy-unicorn (340009195196-0001@[217.231.61.58]) by fwd11.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 17efk5-0j92pMC; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:46:05 +0200 Received: from esoteric.holy-unicorn (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by esoteric.holy-unicorn (8.12.1/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7DHsZH1000663 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:54:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from markus@esoteric.holy-unicorn) Received: (from markus@localhost) by esoteric.holy-unicorn (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g7DHsZc5000662 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:54:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:54:35 +0200 From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (Markus Kliegl) To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score Message-ID: <20020813195435.A543@esoteric> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i X-Sender: 340009195196-0001@t-dialin.net X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: markus.kliegl@t-online.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: markus.kliegl@t-online.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc * David Greenspan [020813 17:53]: > > >>>> The length of my program for the set theory problem is now in the > >>>>> double digits. I was traveling today and had a lot of time to kill, > >>>>> and I reached 97. > >>>> > >>>> With what input/output rules?... > >>> > >>> Single-character, binary input. Braces as output, with the sets > >>> output in descending order at all levels. > >> > >> That works; let's make it "official", any objections? > > > >Sounds fine. Is the range 0-255, then, or 1-255? > > I vote for 0-255. The numbering does start at 0. And no EOF. > > My program handles 0-255. > > And yes, any order for the output sets should be allowed. > My program handles 0-254 :) If the contest rules would allow >8bit cells, it would handle 0-255 alright. The problem is using a loop like the following: ,+[-...] Here the + is needed to let the input 0 pass into the loop at least once, but unfortunately if the input is 255 the program results in undefined behavior. If the inputs can go from 0..255 and the cells can contain values from 0..255, it's quite limited, as you can't safely increment or decrement the value. The only safe thing to do (afaict) is: ,[...] Oh well, it shouldn't be too hard coming up with a work-around, but it would seem a lot less elegant... Markus -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 21:32:48 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17egT9-00084n-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:32:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:32:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17egSg-00084h-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:32:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:32:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.dm.unipi.it ([131.114.6.118]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17egSY-00084b-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:32:02 +0300 Received: from dida7.dm.unipi.it (IDENT:root@dida7.dm.unipi.it [131.114.6.116]) by mail.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7DIVjn23683 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:31:45 +0200 Received: from localhost (mamino@localhost) by dida7.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g7DIVjV07134 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:31:45 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: dida7.dm.unipi.it: mamino owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:31:45 +0200 (CEST) From: Marcello Mamino X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, David Greenspan wrote: > I vote for 0-255. The numbering does start at 0. And no EOF. OK. > My program handles 0-255. My program too... > And yes, any order for the output sets should be allowed. This is probably too hard for automatic rating... A question: Can I write the first "{" before reading any input. M2 -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 22:30:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ehMb-0008DB-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:29:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:29:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ehM2-0008D5-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:29:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:29:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd5mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ehLt-0008Cz-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:29:14 +0300 Received: from pd2mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.110]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0S00E0IREHE7@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:27:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml10so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml10so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.80]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0S00F97REH34@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:27:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0S000LNREHCP@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:27:53 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:33:23 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020813123323.7a7bc0f6.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:31:45 +0200 (CEST) Marcello Mamino wrote: > On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, David Greenspan wrote: > > > I vote for 0-255. The numbering does start at 0. And no EOF. > > OK. Ok. > > And yes, any order for the output sets should be allowed. > > This is probably too hard for automatic rating... No. > A question: > Can I write the first "{" before reading any input. Of course. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 13 22:35:20 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ehRc-0008ES-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:35:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:35:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ehRP-0008EJ-00; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:34:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:34:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd3mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ehRG-0008EB-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:34:46 +0300 Received: from pd6mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd6mr3so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.218]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0S00CGJRNMZ6@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:33:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml8so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml8so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.152]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0S00859RNMRX@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:33:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0S009LJRNLXP@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:33:22 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:38:51 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score In-reply-to: <20020813195435.A543@esoteric> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020813123851.6f593cfa.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020813195435.A543@esoteric> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:54:35 +0200 markus.kliegl@t-online.de (Markus Kliegl) wrote: > My program handles 0-254 :) > If the contest rules would allow >8bit cells, it would handle 0-255 > alright. > > The problem is using a loop like the following: > ,+[-...] > > Here the + is needed to let the input 0 pass into the loop at least > once, but unfortunately if the input is 255 the program results in > undefined behavior. Well, other people seem to have got around that problem, so I guess it's possible. On the other hand, of course 255 will not be tested; it is way too large. Hm. I guess manually looking at the results when the contest is over and checking for cases like this is the only way to get around the problem. > If the inputs can go from 0..255 and the cells can contain values from 0..255, > it's quite limited, as you can't safely increment or decrement the > value. The only safe thing to do (afaict) is: > ,[...] Yes, but you can't safely increment or decrement in pretty much all Brainfuck implementations, save those with arbitrarily large numbers. I would not consider wraparound safe, when you are not expecting it. > would seem a lot less elegant... __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 14 00:43:56 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ejQp-0008YZ-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:42:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:42:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ejQR-0008YE-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:42:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:41:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ejQJ-0008Y7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:41:55 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs195-241-213-75.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.213.75]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2D339A80 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 23:41:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3D58EF7F.2070702@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:37:35 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I'm a bit late with this, so I don't expect my opinion to be considered in the current contest (if it hasn't finished already), but maybe in the next... Daniel wrote: > > Ok, how about this: > > > > 1. The memory tape is infinitely long to the right > > 2. Going to the left of the starting cell is an error I vote for bidirectional infinity. > > 3. Cells can hold values from 0 to 255 Again, I don't really like this restriction. > > 4. No over- or underflow allowed This one I agree with. However, since I voted against 3, 4 takes on a slightly different meaning: should the program use numbers (either data or address) of such magnitude as to overflow the interpreter's internal integers, it will produce an error message rather than wrapping around, so [-] will fail for negative numbers. This makes negative numbers less useful for data storage, but doesn't make them useless: they can still be used for a short time to simplify tests, like the newline-stripper. > > 5. EOF = 0 This one looks rather arbitrary, so it's neither better nor worse than any other choice. Except perhaps that 0 is easiest for a Brainfuck program to test for. > -Any character but +-<>[],. is a comment and therefore ignored in execution; > also not counted for scoring purposes. How about "All submissions must be valid Brainfuck code"? > -There is no limitation on program length. See above. > -No special termination character is necessary. See above. And if it were, it would be the same length for all programs, and therefore not affect scoring. > -A return is ASCII 10 (decimal), plain and simple. Is this about the program, or the output? In the program, it's irrelevant, since non-Brainfuck-command characters, including ASCII 13 and ASCII 10, are ignored. In the output, I agree fully with the ruling. > -Code with unbalanced [] is illegal. See above (not immediately above, but some four steps away). > -There is no limitation on stack depth. What stack? There's the loop start addresses, but those barely form a stack... > -The range of possible input will be described in the problem specification, > which may be trusted. Does this include the exact format of the input (as in, is whether the input number is in decimal or hexadecimal)? > -Code to produce a given output must produce exactly that output; stray > invisible characters are a violation. (E.g. +[,.] is not a legitimate cat.) Agreed. > -The . command leaves the value in the cell unchanged. See above (again, not immediate above but 8 steps up). > -The test for the [] commands is done on the cell where the pointer is at > the time, which is not necessarily where it was when the loop was begun. See above. > -Code intended to solve a finite problem must solve it in finite time, and > terminate afterwards; code intended to solve an infinite problem must solve > any given finite portion of it in finite time. Agreed. > -Where the problem involves generating brainfuck code, generated code is > subject to the exact same rules. (Yes, including this one.) > (Note that several of the other rules are very unlikely to become relevant > except in conjunction with this last one.) What about the input for the genereated programs? > There's one more rule I'm thinking of; I'm unsure about it, and it has > several consequences. It is that a program must not use the , command > unnecessarily. For instance: > -If no input is described in the problem specification, the , command may > not be used. Agreed, but see below. > -If input is terminated with a return, the , command may not be used after > the return is received. Also agreed, and again, see below. > -If the length of input is specified in the problem description, or is > specified explicitly by some part of the input (most likely if a binary > format is being used), the , command may not be used to get more input than > the specified amount. I agree. However, I think this rule implies the above two and the below one. After all, if no input is described in the problem specification, then the length of the input (zero) is specified ther, and if the input is described the as terminated by a newline or EOF, then that counts as "specified explicitly". > -If input is terminated with an EOF, the , command may not be used after the > EOF is received. Agreed, see above. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 14 00:43:57 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ejQp-0008YY-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:42:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:42:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ejQI-0008Y0-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:41:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:41:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ejQ9-0008Xu-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:41:45 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs195-241-213-75.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.213.75]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A5936E20 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 23:41:42 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3D58E6B5.7090403@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:00:05 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Shortest representation of a number in Brainfuck References: <20020808195844.C11703@mu.ee.teiath.gr> <20020809075411.A347@mu.teiath.gr> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030700040503080003070802" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030700040503080003070802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al . Andreou wrote: >On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 09:42:31AM +1000, Ryan Michel wrote: > >>63 also equals 9 * 7 which is exact and requires no additional + or - thus >>saving a character!!! >> > >Yes, I noted it in my reply (63=(3*3)*7), but I cannot explain >it mathematically yet. > First, a mathematical statement of the problem: Given a destination number X, find numbers A, B, and C such that A*B+C=X while minimizing A+B+C. For now, let's assume for the moment C=0. This might be wrong for some numbers, but it seems decent. Our problem is now: find A and B such that A*B=X with minimal A+B. The solution to this problem is well-known: choose A and B as close to each other as possible under the given restrictions (in this case, that they are required to be integers). If you think about it for a moment, this means you have to choose A as the largest divisor of X less than or equal to sqrt(X), and that you similarly have to choose B as the smallest divisor of X greater than or equal to sqrt(X). It is nontrivial but provable that A*B=X according to this definition. Then, we write the corresponding Brainfuck program (for execution time purposes, we put A (smaller) outside as the loop counter and B (larger) inside as the per-loop increase) and check if it is smaller than the trivial solution of only +s. If it is larger or equal (equal too in order to perform best in the execution-time tie-breaker), we stick to said trivial solution. If it is strictly smaller, we recursively apply this procedure to each component until we can squeeze out no more. Attached is a simple C program that attempts to implement this procedure. The actual number may end up somewhat further to the the right than wanted, and the program hasn't been tested much. It seems that the first number where multiplication is advantageous is 15 (3*5: +++[->+++++<]), and the first number where nested multiplications are advantageous seems to be 75 (5*3*5: +++++[->+++[->+++++<]<]). However, as noted above, the assumption C=0 may not always be the right one, particularly if X is prime. So, run this program not only with X but also with several numbers like X-1, X-2, X+1, and X+2 to see what works best. Also, it seems to me that, for 75, 3*5*5 would perform better in the execution-time tie-breaker, but the program gives 5*3*5. Oh well. Disclaimer: I supply this program with no guarantee whatsoever, and if it gives you non-optimal results, which is likely, then it's your own fault for using it. PS. Sorry about the long delay in replying... --------------030700040503080003070802 Content-Type: text/plain; name="number.c" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="number.c" #include #include int solve(int number, int last) { int ceil_sqrt, low, high, count_low, count_high, count_tmp; if(number == 0) return 0; for(ceil_sqrt = 0; ceil_sqrt * ceil_sqrt < number; ceil_sqrt++); for(high = ceil_sqrt; number % high != 0; high++); low = number / high; if(low + high + 7 - last >= number) { while(number--) putchar('+'); return 0; } count_low = solve(low, 0); for(count_tmp = 0; count_tmp < count_low; count_tmp++) putchar('>'); printf("[->"); count_high = solve(high, last); printf("<]"); if(!last) for(count_tmp = 0; count_tmp < count_low; count_tmp++) putchar('<'); return count_low + count_high + 1; } int main(int argc, char **argv) { if(argc != 2) { fprintf(stderr, "Usage: %s \n", argv[0]); return 1; } printf("\nNumber has been displaced by %d cell(s).\n", solve(atoi(argv[1]), 1)); return 0; } --------------030700040503080003070802-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 14 08:10:27 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eqQE-0009EU-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:10:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:10:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eqPv-0009EG-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:09:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:09:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eqPj-0009E9-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:09:47 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7DNq9v06888 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 16:52:10 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 16:51:57 -0700 Subject: [lang] [brainfuck golf] Re: braifuck golf rules From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3D58EF7F.2070702@dds.nl> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > I'm a bit late with this, so I don't expect my opinion to be considered in the > current contest (if it hasn't finished already), but maybe in the next... > > Daniel wrote: >>> Ok, how about this: >>> >>> 1. The memory tape is infinitely long to the right >>> 2. Going to the left of the starting cell is an error > > I vote for bidirectional infinity. > >>> 3. Cells can hold values from 0 to 255 > > Again, I don't really like this restriction. > >>> 4. No over- or underflow allowed > > This one I agree with. However, since I voted against 3, 4 takes on a > slightly different meaning: should the program use numbers (either data or > address) of such magnitude as to overflow the interpreter's internal integers, > it will produce an error message rather than wrapping around, so [-] will fail > for negative numbers. This makes negative numbers less useful for data > storage, > but doesn't make them useless: they can still be used for a short time to > simplify tests, like the newline-stripper. > >>> 5. EOF = 0 > > This one looks rather arbitrary, so it's neither better nor worse than any > other > choice. Except perhaps that 0 is easiest for a Brainfuck program to test for. > >> -Any character but +-<>[],. is a comment and therefore ignored in execution; >> also not counted for scoring purposes. > > How about "All submissions must be valid Brainfuck code"? Note that there is no official specification of what "valid brainfuck code" is, and different implementations have varied wildly. Most of the rules here are about variations that some existing implementation has used, however ill-advised. And unlimited program length, though very sensible, is actually an extension not present in the original implementations. In my book, programs that move the pointer left of its starting point are not "valid brainfuck code". Likewise programs that assume array cells are more than a byte. At the least, they're horribly nonportable. And I think the dialect of brainfuck used for this contest should be chosen for portability. Except for the issues of EOF and return, on which it's hard to find common ground, programs in this dialect should run on any competent implementation. In short it looks like you understand the phrase "valid brainfuck code" to rule out only those extensions you don't like, and I doubt anyone else will understand quite the same thing by it, which is why it was necessary to spell things out fully. >> -There is no limitation on program length. > > See above. > >> -No special termination character is necessary. > > See above. And if it were, it would be the same length for all programs, and > therefore not affect scoring. > >> -A return is ASCII 10 (decimal), plain and simple. > > Is this about the program, or the output? In the program, it's irrelevant, > since non-Brainfuck-command characters, including ASCII 13 and ASCII 10, are > ignored. In the output, I agree fully with the ruling. It's about the output. Also the input. >> -Code with unbalanced [] is illegal. > > See above (not immediately above, but some four steps away). > >> -There is no limitation on stack depth. > > What stack? There's the loop start addresses, but those barely form a > stack... Right; that's what I meant. "stack" was an error. >> -The range of possible input will be described in the problem specification, >> which may be trusted. > > Does this include the exact format of the input (as in, is whether the input > number is in decimal or hexadecimal)? Ideally, yes. >> -Code to produce a given output must produce exactly that output; stray >> invisible characters are a violation. (E.g. +[,.] is not a legitimate cat.) > > Agreed. > >> -The . command leaves the value in the cell unchanged. > > See above (again, not immediate above but 8 steps up). This one, and the next, I haven't seen vary; but given some of the things I have seen people do, I wouldn't be surprised to see it. >> -The test for the [] commands is done on the cell where the pointer is at >> the time, which is not necessarily where it was when the loop was begun. > > See above. > >> -Code intended to solve a finite problem must solve it in finite time, and >> terminate afterwards; code intended to solve an infinite problem must solve >> any given finite portion of it in finite time. > > Agreed. > >> -Where the problem involves generating brainfuck code, generated code is >> subject to the exact same rules. (Yes, including this one.) >> (Note that several of the other rules are very unlikely to become relevant >> except in conjunction with this last one.) > > What about the input for the genereated programs? What about it? It ought to be described in the problem specification. If none is described (as in contest 0), assume there is none. >> There's one more rule I'm thinking of; I'm unsure about it, and it has >> several consequences. It is that a program must not use the , command >> unnecessarily. For instance: >> -If no input is described in the problem specification, the , command may >> not be used. > > Agreed, but see below. > >> -If input is terminated with a return, the , command may not be used after >> the return is received. > > Also agreed, and again, see below. > >> -If the length of input is specified in the problem description, or is >> specified explicitly by some part of the input (most likely if a binary >> format is being used), the , command may not be used to get more input than >> the specified amount. > > I agree. However, I think this rule implies the above two and the below one. > After all, if no input is described in the problem specification, then the > length of the input (zero) is specified ther, and if the input is described > the > as terminated by a newline or EOF, then that counts as "specified explicitly". I agree with you. So the general rule would be: the , command may not be used to get more input than is described in the problem specification? >> -If input is terminated with an EOF, the , command may not be used after the >> EOF is received. > > Agreed, see above. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 14 08:10:27 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eqQE-0009ES-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:10:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:10:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eqPg-0009E8-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:09:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:09:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu ([18.7.21.83]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eqPY-0009E2-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:09:36 +0300 Received: from central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (CENTRAL-CITY-CARRIER-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.72]) by pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA02976 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 23:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from manawatu-mail-centre.mit.edu (MANAWATU-MAIL-CENTRE.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.71]) by central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA18858 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 23:17:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (pool-141-154-220-248.bos.east.verizon.net [141.154.220.248]) by manawatu-mail-centre.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA03578 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 23:17:59 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020813195435.A543@esoteric> References: <20020813195435.A543@esoteric> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 23:18:02 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >My program handles 0-254 :) >If the contest rules would allow >8bit cells, it would handle 0-255 >alright. > >The problem is using a loop like the following: >,+[-...] > >Here the + is needed to let the input 0 pass into the loop at least >once, but unfortunately if the input is 255 the program results in >undefined behavior. > >If the inputs can go from 0..255 and the cells can contain values from 0..255, >it's quite limited, as you can't safely increment or decrement the >value. The only safe thing to do (afaict) is: >,[...] > >Oh well, it shouldn't be too hard coming up with a work-around, but it >would seem a lot less elegant... This is interesting. My current program doesn't use ,+[ but a couple of its predecessors did, always as part of an elegant way to shorten the code (it did not occur to me at the time that this might be a problem). I propose that we use a smaller maximum than 255 for the input range, to avoid prohibiting some clever methods. If the input range still includes cases that cannot be checked by computer due to execution time (for my program I estimate 2^50 steps for the number 20, 2^3000 for the number 200), then it seems to me that some phase of the judging should involve humans examining the algorithms. -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 14 12:12:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17euC2-000A03-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:11:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:11:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17euBI-0009zh-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:11:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:11:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17euB9-0009zb-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:11:00 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7E9AwU04609 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:10:59 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7E9AwJ25575 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:10:58 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:10:58 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: braifuck golf rules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Daniel wrote: > > How about "All submissions must be valid Brainfuck code"? > Note that there is no official specification of what "valid brainfuck code" > is, and different implementations have varied wildly. Most of the rules here > are about variations that some existing implementation has used, however > ill-advised. And unlimited program length, though very sensible, is actually > an extension not present in the original implementations. > In my book, programs that move the pointer left of its starting point are > not "valid brainfuck code". Likewise programs that assume array cells are > more than a byte. At the least, they're horribly nonportable. And I think By the way, a quick survey of the brainfuck programs in the archive (every one of them given an input of '10' (ascii '1', ascii '0') because I'm too lazy to test them by hand) gives the following "correctness results": Correct 21 Dec. of zero 6 (22 if you count different versions of the same quine) Inc. over 255 2 Left of tape 2 Input after EOF 6 I estimate there to be about 6 "correct" programs which would exceed upper bound on appropriate input, and about 3 "incorrect" programs that would not decrement zero on correct input. > Right; that's what I meant. "stack" was an error. Maybe it should be corrected on the golf site, too? (I put up the golf rules at http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/golf-rules.txt , but that probably is not very "official".) I still propose you would put up a wiki to coordinate this stuff. > > After all, if no input is described in the problem specification, then > > the length of the input (zero) is specified ther, and if the input is > > described the as terminated by a newline or EOF, then that counts as > > "specified explicitly". > I agree with you. So the general rule would be: the , command may not be > used to get more input than is described in the problem specification? The other two rules (20 and 23 in the ENSI version) are still good, because there is little way to automatically enforce this one. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 14 12:17:14 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17euH4-000A21-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:17:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:16:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17euGn-000A1r-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:16:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:16:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.dm.unipi.it ([131.114.6.118]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17euGf-000A1k-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:16:41 +0300 Received: from dida9.dm.unipi.it (IDENT:root@dida9.dm.unipi.it [131.114.6.162]) by mail.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7E9GNn14040 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:16:23 +0200 Received: from localhost (mamino@localhost) by dida9.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g7E9GNA06187 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:16:23 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: dida9.dm.unipi.it: mamino owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:16:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Marcello Mamino X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, David Greenspan wrote: > >Oh well, it shouldn't be too hard coming up with a work-around, but it > >would seem a lot less elegant... > > > This is interesting. My current program doesn't use ,+[ but a couple > of its predecessors did, always as part of an elegant way to shorten > the code (it did not occur to me at the time that this might be a > problem). > > I propose that we use a smaller maximum than 255 for the input range, > to avoid prohibiting some clever methods. Although I faced the same problem as you, I don't agree... I think we have to find more clever methods instead of getting around difficulties by alowing only a small set of inputs... M2. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 14 13:29:22 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17evOo-000ARR-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:29:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:29:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17evOL-000ARL-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:28:41 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:28:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from wells.tecc.co.uk ([195.217.37.90] helo=seatbooker.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17evOD-000ARC-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:28:33 +0300 Received: from basingstoke.tecc.co.uk (basingstoke.tecc.co.uk [195.217.37.75]) by seatbooker.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09236 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:28:29 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:28:29 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <200208141028.LAA09236@seatbooker.net> From: Mike Taylor To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-reply-to: <20020813123851.6f593cfa.ayzik@shaw.ca> (message from Nikita Ayzikovsky on Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:38:51 -0700) Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score References: <20020813195435.A543@esoteric> <20020813123851.6f593cfa.ayzik@shaw.ca> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@seatbooker.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@seatbooker.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:38:51 -0700 > From: Nikita Ayzikovsky > > > Here the + is needed to let the input 0 pass into the loop at > > least once, but unfortunately if the input is 255 the program > > results in undefined behavior. > > Well, other people seem to have got around that problem, so I guess > it's possible. On the other hand, of course 255 will not be tested; > it is way too large. > > Hm. I guess manually looking at the results when the contest is over > and checking for cases like this is the only way to get around the > problem. That's ridiculous. Erorr-prone human judging _can't_ be the right way to do this. If test-cases of size 255 (or 200, or 100) are deemed to long-running to be tested automatically, then they should be removed from the problem definition. Let's be honest. _/|_ _______________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "Sun say, It's Open Source And Free ... send $19.95 for CD with binaries ... sign contract and send blood sample to get source" -- Felinoid. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 14 22:37:27 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17f3wk-000CRA-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:36:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:36:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17f3uU-000CQR-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:34:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:34:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu ([18.7.21.83]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17f3uL-000CQL-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:34:17 +0300 Received: from grand-central-station.mit.edu (GRAND-CENTRAL-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.82]) by pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA29478 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:34:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (MELBOURNE-CITY-STREET.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.86]) by grand-central-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA25944 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (pool-141-154-220-248.bos.east.verizon.net [141.154.220.248]) by melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA02080 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:34:08 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200208141028.LAA09236@seatbooker.net> References: <20020813195435.A543@esoteric> <20020813123851.6f593cfa.ayzik@shaw.ca> <200208141028.LAA09236@seatbooker.net> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:34:08 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >That's ridiculous. Erorr-prone human judging _can't_ be the right way >to do this. If test-cases of size 255 (or 200, or 100) are deemed to >long-running to be tested automatically, then they should be removed >from the problem definition. Let's be honest. I say we decide now whether we want judging to be completely automatic. This will determine whether the input range needs to be restricted, which will determine whether incrementing the input is a safe thing to do. Either way is fine with me. Also, I propose that we get an ezboard or something of the sort going soon. Wiki could work, but I don't know enough about it to judge. A threaded message board sounds convenient. -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 14 22:47:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17f46v-000CSx-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:47:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:47:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17f46N-000CSo-00; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:46:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:46:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sitemail3.everyone.net ([216.200.145.37] helo=omta01.mta.everyone.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17f46F-000CSh-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:46:35 +0300 Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 552C21C3BDD for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id CD99D3950; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:46:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Erik Jacobson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] X-Originating-Ip: [128.132.37.68] Message-Id: <20020814194632.CD99D3950@sitemail.everyone.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Erik@krock.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Erik@krock.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I could offer a forum at my site ( http://www.burnproject.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi ) if anyone was interested. Or you could just use the existing programming forum, as it is pretty dead anyway. --- David Greenspan wrote: >Also, I propose that we get an ezboard or something of the sort going >soon. Wiki could work, but I don't know enough about it to judge. A >threaded message board sounds convenient. > >-- David _____________________________________________________________ Modern Rock K-Rock...be part of the New Music Revolution and check out www.krock.com!! _____________________________________________________________ Promote your group and strengthen ties to your members with email@yourgroup.org by Everyone.net http://www.everyone.net/?btn=tag -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 15 02:47:07 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17f7qs-000Cfa-00; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 02:46:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 15 Aug 2002 02:46:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17f7qI-000CfU-00; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 02:46:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 15 Aug 2002 02:46:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17f7q8-000CfO-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 02:46:13 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7ENk6309797 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:46:06 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:45:53 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200208141028.LAA09236@seatbooker.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > That's ridiculous. Erorr-prone human judging _can't_ be the right way > to do this. If test-cases of size 255 (or 200, or 100) are deemed to > long-running to be tested automatically, then they should be removed > from the problem definition. Let's be honest. A. Again, in this instance, we can try it on 255 for two minutes, or a million instructions executed, or whatever, and see if it overflows within that time. B. Are you suggesting we make the automatic judging procedure absolutely final, and that any protests about the results should be ignored? -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 15 12:40:55 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fH6x-000DTM-00; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:40:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:40:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fH4y-000DSq-00; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:38:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:38:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from wells.tecc.co.uk ([195.217.37.90] helo=seatbooker.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fH4p-000DSk-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:37:59 +0300 Received: from basingstoke.tecc.co.uk (basingstoke.tecc.co.uk [195.217.37.75]) by seatbooker.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18980 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:37:52 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:37:52 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <200208150937.KAA18980@seatbooker.net> From: Mike Taylor To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-reply-to: (message from Daniel on Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:45:53 -0700) Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score References: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@seatbooker.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@seatbooker.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:45:53 -0700 > From: Daniel > > B. Are you suggesting we make the automatic judging procedure > absolutely final, and that any protests about the results should be > ignored? Well, more or less. I was suggesting that the whole judging procedure should be automatic, so that the _only_ time human intervention is required is if someone thinks their program has been wrongly judged (i.e. if they appeal). But, hey, whatever you guys want to do. I've never written a BF program and I'm not likely to take it up for golfing purposes, so ignore me: I'm an outsider on this one. _/|_ _______________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "Never begin a sentence with 'and,' 'or,' or 'but,' and never end it with 'wildebeest'" -- Hammill's Rules of Grammar. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 15 13:51:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fIDK-000DfW-00; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:50:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:50:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fICg-000DfE-00; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:50:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:50:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fICY-000Df8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:50:02 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7FAo0U20648 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:50:00 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7FAnxx16202 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:49:59 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:49:59 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Daniel wrote: > A. Again, in this instance, we can try it on 255 for two minutes, or a > million instructions executed, or whatever, and see if it overflows within > that time. I think this is a good idea. I'm quite much for automation - it seems nice to me that problem descriptions can be given in terms of input-output mappings, especially because brainfuck usually makes the Kolmogorov complexity of the mapping smaller than its literal encoding. However, enough input-output sequences should be given for each problem. By the way, I think the standard number of "steps" for loops should be (1 + steps in body) * number of iterations + 1. i.e. one overhead step per iteration, plus one overhead step. > B. Are you suggesting we make the automatic judging procedure absolutely > final, and that any protests about the results should be ignored? My opinion is that, while the automatic judging should be considered "authoritative", the judging procedure itself should be open for discussion (and probably modification) if problems exhibit themselves. By the way, it would probably be nice to see Unlambda golf, but maybe that's too hard-core to have enough participants... (Maybe also lazy-K golf, but that has the problem that the winner tends to be the one with best tools.) Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 16 03:25:56 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fUvu-000IwH-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:25:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:25:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fUv1-000Iw8-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:24:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:24:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fUus-000Iw2-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:24:38 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7G0OYm23965 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:24:35 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:24:21 -0700 Subject: [lang] [brainfuck golf] New brainfuck wiki. From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Okay, I've set up a brainfuck wiki, with a Brainfuck Golf sub-page: http://www.seedwiki.com/page.cfm?doc=BrainFuck&wikiid=794 We could move Brainfuck Golf discussion there until we come up with anything better. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 16 04:04:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fVXl-000IzF-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:04:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:04:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fVXQ-000Iz9-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:04:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:04:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd3mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fVXI-000Iz3-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:04:20 +0300 Received: from pd6mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd6mr3so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.218]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0W00IBDW2Y0E@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:59:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml2so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml2so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.146]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0W00A4PW2YBR@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:59:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost ([24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0W00GTEW2Y94@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:59:22 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:05:28 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] New brainfuck wiki. In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020815180528.21beb85d.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:24:21 -0700 Daniel wrote: > Okay, I've set up a brainfuck wiki, with a Brainfuck Golf sub-page: > http://www.seedwiki.com/page.cfm?doc=BrainFuck&wikiid=794 > We could move Brainfuck Golf discussion there until we come up with anything > better. That site gives me "Error Occurred While Processing Request" :( __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 16 05:12:55 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fWa7-000J2N-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 05:11:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 05:11:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fWZN-000J2H-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 05:10:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 05:10:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fWZF-000J2B-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 05:10:25 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7G2ALx28188 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:10:21 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:10:06 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] New brainfuck wiki. From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020815180528.21beb85d.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >> Okay, I've set up a brainfuck wiki, with a Brainfuck Golf sub-page: >> http://www.seedwiki.com/page.cfm?doc=BrainFuck&wikiid=794 >> We could move Brainfuck Golf discussion there until we come up with anything >> better. > > That site gives me "Error Occurred While Processing Request" :( Ooh. What browser, what version, and what platform, out of curiosity? (Same thing happens on Netscape 4.77 for Mac; I'll submit a bug report to the wiki administrators...) -Daniel. > __ > <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ > /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 16 06:37:14 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fXv8-000J6L-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:37:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:36:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fXuX-000J6F-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:36:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:36:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from fort-point-station.mit.edu ([18.7.7.76]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fXuP-000J69-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:36:21 +0300 Received: from grand-central-station.mit.edu (GRAND-CENTRAL-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.82]) by fort-point-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA11547 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from manawatu-mail-centre.mit.edu (MANAWATU-MAIL-CENTRE.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.71]) by grand-central-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA26125 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (pool-141-154-220-248.bos.east.verizon.net [141.154.220.248]) by manawatu-mail-centre.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA09657 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:36:16 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:36:18 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] New brainfuck wiki. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > > That site gives me "Error Occurred While Processing Request" :( > >Ooh. What browser, what version, and what platform, out of curiosity? (Same >thing happens on Netscape 4.77 for Mac; I'll submit a bug report to the wiki >administrators...) Ditto for IE Mac 5.1. -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 16 07:05:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fYMp-000J8Q-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:05:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:05:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fYMb-000J8K-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:05:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:05:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fYMS-000J8E-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:05:20 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7G45Hx02646 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:05:17 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:05:02 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] New brainfuck wiki. From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >>> That site gives me "Error Occurred While Processing Request" :( >> >> Ooh. What browser, what version, and what platform, out of curiosity? (Same >> thing happens on Netscape 4.77 for Mac; I'll submit a bug report to the wiki >> administrators...) > > Ditto for IE Mac 5.1. Odd; it works fine in 5.0. (And Opera.) I've submitted a report. I wonder what other kind of forum we could use that doesn't require login? -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 16 07:25:01 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fYfR-000JAH-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:24:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:24:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fYfC-000JAB-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:24:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:24:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sitemail3.everyone.net ([216.200.145.37] helo=omta02.mta.everyone.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fYf4-000JA5-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:24:34 +0300 Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6AF1C3972 for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id A3068395B; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:24:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Erik Jacobson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] New brainfuck wiki. X-Originating-Ip: [64.80.247.98] Message-Id: <20020816042421.A3068395B@sitemail.everyone.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Erik@krock.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Erik@krock.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Well, on the forums I offered before, I can enable guest accounts where a login is unneccessary. It was actually down at the time I sent that first email because of some unscheduled network monkeys messing with the cables. --- Daniel wrote: >>>> That site gives me "Error Occurred While Processing Request" :( >>> >>> Ooh. What browser, what version, and what platform, out of curiosity? (Same >>> thing happens on Netscape 4.77 for Mac; I'll submit a bug report to the wiki >>> administrators...) >> >> Ditto for IE Mac 5.1. > >Odd; it works fine in 5.0. (And Opera.) I've submitted a report. I wonder >what other kind of forum we could use that doesn't require login? _____________________________________________________________ Modern Rock K-Rock...be part of the New Music Revolution and check out www.krock.com!! _____________________________________________________________ Promote your group and strengthen ties to your members with email@yourgroup.org by Everyone.net http://www.everyone.net/?btn=tag -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 16 09:06:47 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17faFm-000JGt-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:06:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:06:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17faFK-000JGn-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:06:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:05:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web14004.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.175.120]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17faFB-000JGh-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:05:57 +0300 Message-ID: <20020816060554.83901.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.241.42.65] by web14004.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:05:54 BST Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:05:54 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stephen=20Sykes?= Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] New brainfuck wiki. To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >>> That site gives me "Error Occurred While Processing Request" :( > >> > >> Ooh. What browser, what version, and what platform, out of curiosity? > (Same > >> thing happens on Netscape 4.77 for Mac; I'll submit a bug report to > the wiki > >> administrators...) > > > > Ditto for IE Mac 5.1. > > Odd; it works fine in 5.0. (And Opera.) I've submitted a report. I > wonder > what other kind of forum we could use that doesn't require login? I get the error too. My (IE6) browser reports itself as Mozilla/4.0 (compatible, AmigaVoyager/2.95, AmigaOS/MC680x0). There is a good reason for this. Anyway, I also get the error with Mozilla 1.0 which gives Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 as the user agent +- S.D.Sykes - www.stephensykes.com - +358 50 577 3879 - | "Wagner's music is better than it sounds." -- Mark Twain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 16 13:45:10 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17feaZ-000K0t-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:44:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:44:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17feY5-000K0e-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:41:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:41:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17feXw-000K0Y-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:41:36 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7GAfWx11427 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:41:33 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:41:19 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: Round 1 problem double-digit score From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > By the way, I think the standard number of "steps" for loops should be > > (1 + steps in body) * number of iterations + 1. > > i.e. one overhead step per iteration, plus one overhead step. Agreed. This is equivalent to what Bertram and I agreed on. >> B. Are you suggesting we make the automatic judging procedure absolutely >> final, and that any protests about the results should be ignored? > > My opinion is that, while the automatic judging should be considered > "authoritative", the judging procedure itself should be open for > discussion (and probably modification) if problems exhibit themselves. Modify the results for a specific problem, or modify the procedure in time for the next round? -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 16 13:54:57 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fekZ-000K3e-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:54:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:54:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fek2-000K3Y-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:54:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:53:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fejq-000K3S-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:53:54 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7GArpx11540 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:53:52 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:53:38 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] New brainfuck wiki. From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020816042421.A3068395B@sitemail.everyone.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Well, on the forums I offered before, I can enable guest accounts where a > login is unneccessary. Hm, maybe we should do that? Don't know when the wiki will be fixed; the problem seems to be fairly general (i.e. it's not the brainfuck site but the whole free wiki host). -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 16 16:15:22 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fgui-000KJ0-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:13:16 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:13:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fgrA-000KIW-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:09:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:09:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web14005.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.175.121]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fgr1-000KIQ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:09:28 +0300 Message-ID: <20020816130925.70686.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.100.133.65] by web14005.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:09:25 BST Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:09:25 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stephen=20Sykes?= Subject: [lang] Re: [essies] Status To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > According to my records (a/k/a "saved e-mail"), judging was in mid- > conversation, when it just...stopped. I was waiting to actually > program something in each of the languages before judging them in their > entirety, but then emergency jobs started popping up, and I've spent > little time in front of my own computer... If you *are* doing this, you may like to know that I just looked over my Choon language submission and noticed that there was an error in the documentation. A play from output instruction using a named marker plays the note encountered AFTER the marker was encountered, and not the note before. Obviously. The instruction set description was correct, but not the description earlier on in the page. There is a corrected version here: http://www.stephensykes.com/choon/choon.html Stephen +- S.D.Sykes - www.stephensykes.com - +358 50 577 3879 - | "1) Who's Dido? 2) Get me Dido. 3) Get me someone like Dido. | 4) Get me a younger Dido. 5) Who's Dido?" | -- Dido on the 5 stages of pop stardom __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 16 16:23:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fh4r-000KKz-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:23:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:23:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fh4L-000KKs-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:23:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:23:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sitemail3.everyone.net ([216.200.145.37] helo=omta02.mta.everyone.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fh4D-000KKm-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:23:05 +0300 Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D5B81CE57B for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 075FA396A; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:22:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Erik Jacobson To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] New brainfuck wiki. X-Originating-Ip: [128.132.37.68] Message-Id: <20020816132212.075FA396A@sitemail.everyone.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Erik@krock.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Erik@krock.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Anyone else have any comments? Yay/nay? I'll get it rolling tonight if not. I just need to tell the guy who owns the box to let unregged users post in the programming forum. Unless you want a dedicated forum for the list? I could do that to. Let me know. (http://www.burnproject.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=21 - I go as Azhrarn on the boards there) --- Daniel wrote: >Hm, maybe we should do that? Don't know when the wiki will be fixed; the >problem seems to be fairly general (i.e. it's not the brainfuck site but the >whole free wiki host). _____________________________________________________________ Modern Rock K-Rock...be part of the New Music Revolution and check out www.krock.com!! _____________________________________________________________ Promote your group and strengthen ties to your members with email@yourgroup.org by Everyone.net http://www.everyone.net/?btn=tag -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 16 18:28:30 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fj1I-000KTC-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:28:12 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:28:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [61.171.130.57] (helo=sh163.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fj13-000KSv-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:27:58 +0300 From: "nancysports" Subject: portable basketball sets To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf";charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: sales@nancysports.com Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:26:03 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: FoxMail 4.0 beta 2 [cn] Message-Id: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: sephtc@sh163.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit www.nancysports.com

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from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fj1x-000KTo-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:28:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:28:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fj1J-000KTB-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:28:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:28:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [61.171.130.57] (helo=sh163.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fj13-000KSu-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:27:58 +0300 From: "nancysports" Subject: [lang] portable basketball sets To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf";charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:26:03 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Message-Id: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: sephtc@sh163.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: sephtc@sh163.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit www.nancysports.com

Dear Sirs,
¡¡We are a manufacturer of PVC balls in Shanghai,China.Currently the exercise balls are becoming very ¡¡popular both in US and Europe.If you are interested in this item too,please contact us for prices and further information.

¡¡We look forward to hearing from you .
¡¡Sincerelly,
Nancy Chu
Shanghai Nancy Sporting Goods Corp Ltd.
Shanghai South-Sky Sporting & Leasure Products Corp.Ltd.
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body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 16 23:09:50 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fnPe-000Khc-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:09:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:09:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fnOo-000KhW-00; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:08:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:08:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from fort-point-station.mit.edu ([18.7.7.76]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fnOf-000KhQ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:08:37 +0300 Received: from central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (CENTRAL-CITY-CARRIER-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.72]) by fort-point-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA00561 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (MELBOURNE-CITY-STREET.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.86]) by central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA22492 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (pool-141-154-220-248.bos.east.verizon.net [141.154.220.248]) by melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA01279 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020816132212.075FA396A@sitemail.everyone.net> References: <20020816132212.075FA396A@sitemail.everyone.net> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:08:35 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] New brainfuck wiki. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Couldn't there be a forum on brainfuck.sourceforge.net? That would seem the most logical place. -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 17 01:00:21 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fp8Z-000Kml-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:00:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:00:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fp80-000KmZ-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:59:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:59:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fp7r-000KmT-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:59:23 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7GLxKk24050 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:59:20 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:59:07 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: portable basketball sets From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc (About spam sent to misc) That's one thing I haven't seen done. (Probably someone has done it already, though.) I think all the programming languages I've seen have used text files as their source code. But of course a language could just as well take a GIF file or the like. One pixel per instruction, say. Probably we want to use pixels in the same image for data storage and for output as well. So you set up the program image to look like a bar graph or whatever you want, and then terminate. If you want textual output, store font information in the program and draw the appropriate letters. Of course for constant output you can just put it in the program fully formed to begin with, and make sure the program terminates before messing it up, which makes "hello world" appropriately trivial... -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 17 02:03:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fq7t-000Kr0-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:03:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:03:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fq7F-000Kqo-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:02:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:02:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fq76-000Kqi-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:02:40 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@[195.130.100.176]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g7GMxKK28166 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:59:24 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g7GN4YQ00390 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:04:34 +0300 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:04:32 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: portable basketball sets Message-ID: <20020817020432.A387@mu.teiath.gr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from sephtc@sh163.net on Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 11:26:03PM +0800 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 11:26:03PM +0800, nancysports wrote: ...a few piles of HTML bull. Anyway, I got this one in my personal mail too, so I think I can safely guess that the list has been found by spam spiders. Argh... -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://members.darktech.org/andreou/ | this won't work either. . . -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 17 03:02:12 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fr2X-000KxH-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:02:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:01:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fr24-000KxB-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:01:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:01:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.dm.unipi.it ([131.114.6.118]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fr1v-000Kx5-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:01:24 +0300 Received: from dida9.dm.unipi.it (dida9.dm.unipi.it [131.114.6.162]) by mail.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7H00wn30985 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:00:58 +0200 Received: from localhost (mamino@localhost) by dida9.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7H011c04736 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:01:01 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: dida9.dm.unipi.it: mamino owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:01:01 +0200 (CEST) From: Marcello Mamino X-X-Sender: mamino@dida9.dm.unipi.it To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] What about a Ya***! group... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I think this is sufficently open to work as a message board: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bfgolf/ M2. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 17 03:03:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fr3w-000Ky2-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:03:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:03:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fr3f-000Kxi-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:03:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:03:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from 004.209-115-210-0.interbaun.com ([209.115.210.4] helo=impulse.novusordo.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fr3V-000Kxc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:03:01 +0300 Received: (qmail 7956 invoked by uid 0); 17 Aug 2002 00:02:53 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO impulse.novusordo.net) (jvanherk@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 17 Aug 2002 00:02:53 -0000 Received: (from jvanherk@localhost) by impulse.novusordo.net (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g7H02q64023718 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:02:52 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:02:52 -0600 From: Jesse van Herk To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: portable basketball sets Message-ID: <20020817000252.GC32318@impulse.novusordo.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-URL: http://www.jess2.net X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: thebottomlessvoid@jess2.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: thebottomlessvoid@jess2.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On the 16th day of Aug, Daniel intoned: > That's one thing I haven't seen done. (Probably someone has done it already, > though.) I think all the programming languages I've seen have used text > files as their source code. But of course a language could just as well take > a GIF file or the like. One pixel per instruction, say. See Wierd. You could convert the interpreter to check pixels instead of characters. -- Jesse "amateur everything" van Herk | When you let six-foot action figures http://www.jess2.net/ | kill costumed superheroes, then the | terrorists have already won! -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 17 03:08:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fr93-000L3Y-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:08:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:08:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fr8s-000L3S-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:08:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:08:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd5mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fr8j-000L3M-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:08:26 +0300 Received: from pd2mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.110]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0Y0050SODZLT@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:08:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml8so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml8so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.152]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0Y00DO8ODZI5@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:08:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0Y00BBIODZ8P@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:08:23 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:14:44 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] New brainfuck wiki. In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020816171444.515ebe15.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020816132212.075FA396A@sitemail.everyone.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:08:35 -0400 David Greenspan wrote: > Couldn't there be a forum on brainfuck.sourceforge.net? That would > seem the most logical place. Well, it would mean that I'd either have to write forums software or just get and install something, and frankly i'm too lazy to do either. Oh, and there is a discussion forum on SF attached to every project, but it's ugly. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 17 03:09:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fr9n-000L42-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:09:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:09:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fr9d-000L3t-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:09:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:09:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd5mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fr9V-000L3m-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 03:09:13 +0300 Received: from pd5mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr3so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.144]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0Y0054ROF9LT@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:09:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml10so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml10so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.80]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0Y0044COF9NX@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:09:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0Y00JB7OF8HN@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:09:09 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:15:29 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: What about a Ya***! group... In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020816171529.2d139fba.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:01:01 +0200 (CEST) Marcello Mamino wrote: > I think this is sufficently open to work as a message board: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bfgolf/ Yay! I'll put a link on brainfuck.sf.net. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 17 04:36:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fsWH-000MbN-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:36:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:36:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fsVo-000MbH-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:36:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:36:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sitemail3.everyone.net ([216.200.145.37] helo=omta02.mta.everyone.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fsVg-000MbB-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:36:12 +0300 Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563D91C3E5C for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 97C513941; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:36:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Erik To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: What about a Ya***! group... X-Originating-Ip: [64.80.244.26] Message-Id: <20020817013609.97C513941@sitemail.everyone.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Erik@krock.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Erik@krock.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Oh fine, after I got mine all set up to. :p (Doesn't Yoohoo have "advert breaks?") --- Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: >On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:01:01 +0200 (CEST) >Marcello Mamino wrote: > >> I think this is sufficently open to work as a message board: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bfgolf/ > >Yay! I'll put a link on brainfuck.sf.net. _____________________________________________________________ Modern Rock K-Rock...be part of the New Music Revolution and check out www.krock.com!! _____________________________________________________________ Promote your group and strengthen ties to your members with email@yourgroup.org by Everyone.net http://www.everyone.net/?btn=tag -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 17 04:44:47 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fsdu-000McM-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:44:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:44:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fsdi-000McG-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:44:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:44:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd6mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17fsda-000McA-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:44:22 +0300 Received: from pd5mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.233]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0Y00G14SMPT0@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:40:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml7so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml7so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.151]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0Y000IXSO0IZ@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:40:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0Y00AH5SNZQG@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:40:48 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:47:08 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: What about a Ya***! group... In-reply-to: <20020817013609.97C513941@sitemail.everyone.net> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020816184708.28f33d73.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020817013609.97C513941@sitemail.everyone.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Erik wrote: [bad quoting corrected] > --- Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > >Marcello Mamino wrote: > > > >> I think this is sufficently open to work as a message board: > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bfgolf/ > > > >Yay! I'll put a link on brainfuck.sf.net. > Oh fine, after I got mine all set up to. :p (Doesn't Yoohoo have "advert breaks?") Yes, it does. It's actually quite evil. But hey - I can put a link to your forum too :) __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 17 05:23:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ftFL-000MfU-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 05:23:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 05:23:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ftF1-000MfO-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 05:23:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 05:22:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sitemail3.everyone.net ([216.200.145.37] helo=omta01.mta.everyone.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ftEt-000MfI-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 05:22:55 +0300 Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDBE61C7E02 for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 9D20BE4AE; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:22:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Erik To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: What about a Ya***! group... X-Originating-Ip: [64.80.244.26] Message-Id: <20020817022253.9D20BE4AE@sitemail.everyone.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Erik@krock.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Erik@krock.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --- Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: >Yes, it does. It's actually quite evil. But hey - I can put a link to >your forum too :) Sure, I just wanted to know if you wanted to use the existing programming forum there, or would like a seperate esoteric board? _____________________________________________________________ Modern Rock K-Rock...be part of the New Music Revolution and check out www.krock.com!! _____________________________________________________________ Promote your group and strengthen ties to your members with email@yourgroup.org by Everyone.net http://www.everyone.net/?btn=tag -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 17 19:13:54 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17g6Cn-000NLn-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 19:13:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 19:13:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17g6Bj-000NLh-00; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 19:12:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 17 Aug 2002 19:12:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.34]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17g6Ba-000NLb-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 19:12:22 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id g7HGCLb28262 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 19:12:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17g66S-0002pb-00 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 19:07:04 +0300 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 19:07:04 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [source] graphical source (was Re: portable basketball sets) Message-ID: <20020817160704.GA10796@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 02:59:07PM -0700, Daniel wrote: > That's one thing I haven't seen done. (Probably someone has done it already, > though.) I think all the programming languages I've seen have used text > files as their source code. But of course a language could just as well take > a GIF file or the like. One pixel per instruction, say. Somebody did make a language that uses pictures as source. Maybe I should check the archives. And then there are programs that hide data in picture files, which could be used to hide programs there, too, but that's not very interesting :) I also programming languages with picture data could be nice, but they end being simple cellular automatons if you make them pixel-based. One should probably rather have "emergent commands" which arise from simple dynamics of fluids or something like that. That, you could call a "dataflow language".... Another approach would be to make something BeFunge-y, with a number of IP's around the picture, maybe doing typical image manipulation things (smear, sharpen, ...) and moving with different logics. Just ideas... > for constant output you can just put it in the program fully formed to begin > with, and make sure the program terminates before messing it up, which makes > "hello world" appropriately trivial... Yup, though I think it would be more interesting if the language would be able to produce new pictures also, not only change its own state. Panu -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 18 00:23:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gB30-000NbQ-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:23:51 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:23:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gB2Q-000NbK-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:23:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:23:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gB2H-000NbE-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:23:05 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7HLN1605340 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:23:02 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:22:49 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: [source] graphical source (was Re: portable basketball sets) From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020817160704.GA10796@ling.helsinki.fi> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Yup, though I think it would be more interesting if the language would > be able to produce new pictures also, not only change its own state. If it changes its own state enough it will have made a new picture, right? (Same size, of course, unless there are commands to change that.) -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 18 00:31:26 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gBAI-000Ncx-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:31:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:31:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gBA5-000Ncr-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:31:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:31:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sitemail3.everyone.net ([216.200.145.37] helo=omta01.mta.everyone.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gB9x-000Nci-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:31:01 +0300 Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B851C507C for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 2276B3961; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:30:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Erik To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [source] graphical source X-Originating-Ip: [64.80.247.27] Message-Id: <20020817213055.2276B3961@sitemail.everyone.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Erik@krock.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Erik@krock.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --- Panu Kalliokoski wrote: >I also programming languages with picture data could be nice, but they >end being simple cellular automatons if you make them pixel-based. >One should probably rather have "emergent commands" which arise from >simple dynamics of fluids or something like that. That, you could call a >"dataflow language".... > >Another approach would be to make something BeFunge-y, with a number of >IP's around the picture, maybe doing typical image manipulation things >(smear, sharpen, ...) and moving with different logics. What about something where you can "draw" a program? Similiar to mouse gesture recognition techniques. Different drawn shapes mean different things, and maybe use of color to define program flow or I/O. For example, a red line could define the path the program takes, and it would be drawn from one region of the picture to the next (with some indication of start and stop). With blue elements indicating output, and yellow elements indicating input. Different shapes like circlular drawings indicating looping or whatever. As far as outputting character data like text, I Guess some kind of character recognition could be used (Similiar to PDA gesture recognition) but that tends to be very touchy. Some form of coding that uses the continuity of regions along with color maybe? The more I read that, the more deluded it looks... :) There is possibility for some very high level designs though that could be more expressive than typed text would ever be. _____________________________________________________________ Modern Rock K-Rock...be part of the New Music Revolution and check out www.krock.com!! _____________________________________________________________ Promote your group and strengthen ties to your members with email@yourgroup.org by Everyone.net http://www.everyone.net/?btn=tag -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 18 01:07:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gBio-000Nfw-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:07:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:06:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gBiT-000Nfq-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:06:41 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:06:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from cepheus.azstarnet.com ([169.197.56.195]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gBiK-000Nfk-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:06:32 +0300 Received: from andromeda (andromeda.azstarnet.com [169.197.53.210]) by cepheus.azstarnet.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g7HM6TYH020642 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:06:29 -0700 (MST) X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:06:28 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] Re: [source] graphical source In-Reply-To: <20020817213055.2276B3961@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I think there is a working example of this in the common flowchart. Maybe you can use that as a starting point. Removing text completely might not be an advantage. Jeff On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, Erik wrote: > --- Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > >I also programming languages with picture data could be nice, but they > >end being simple cellular automatons if you make them pixel-based. > >One should probably rather have "emergent commands" which arise from > >simple dynamics of fluids or something like that. That, you could call a > >"dataflow language".... > > > >Another approach would be to make something BeFunge-y, with a number of > >IP's around the picture, maybe doing typical image manipulation things > >(smear, sharpen, ...) and moving with different logics. > > What about something where you can "draw" a program? Similiar to mouse gesture recognition techniques. Different drawn shapes mean different things, and maybe use of color to define program flow or I/O. > > For example, a red line could define the path the program takes, and it would be drawn from one region of the picture to the next (with some indication of start and stop). With blue elements indicating output, and yellow elements indicating input. Different shapes like circlular drawings indicating looping or whatever. > > As far as outputting character data like text, I Guess some kind of character recognition could be used (Similiar to PDA gesture recognition) but that tends to be very touchy. Some form of coding that uses the continuity of regions along with color maybe? > > The more I read that, the more deluded it looks... :) There is possibility for some very high level designs though that could be more expressive than typed text would ever be. > > _____________________________________________________________ > Modern Rock K-Rock...be part of the New Music Revolution and check out > www.krock.com!! > > _____________________________________________________________ > Promote your group and strengthen ties to your members with email@yourgroup.org by Everyone.net http://www.everyone.net/?btn=tag > > -- > To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: > unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] > unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] > > > -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 18 03:56:40 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gEMo-000NxI-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:56:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:56:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gELy-000NxC-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:55:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:55:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [65.162.45.199] (helo=luminet.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gELn-000Nx6-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:55:29 +0300 Received: (from dseaman@localhost) by localhost (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA00180 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:18:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:18:06 -0500 From: David Seaman Message-Id: <200208132318.SAA00180@luminet.net> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Brainfuck golf X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dseaman@luminet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dseaman@luminet.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Could somebody please tell me what the "set theory" problem is? I can't seem to find it on the list, and it's not under "current contest" on the web page yet, either. Thanks. David S. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 18 04:05:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gEUY-000Nyk-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:04:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:04:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gETr-000Nye-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:03:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:03:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from cepheus.azstarnet.com ([169.197.56.195]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gETj-000NyY-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:03:39 +0300 Received: from andromeda (andromeda.azstarnet.com [169.197.53.210]) by cepheus.azstarnet.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g7I13aYH005788 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:03:36 -0700 (MST) X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:03:36 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] [golf] Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Here you go.. On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Daniel wrote: > A possible problem for the next contest: > A common definition of natural numbers, due to John von Neumann, defines > each as the set of all the preceding ones. For instance: > 0 = {} > 1 = {{}} > 2 = {{},{{}}} > 3 = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} > ... > > So the problem would be: read a number and output the definition. > Details: Don't know whether we should include the commas. We'd also have to > specify whether a final return is required, and also the input format > (binary or ASCII, how many digits, is it EOF-terminated, and so on). One > more thing: Since sets are indifferent as to order, perhaps we should at > least allow the reverse order as well, so 3 could be {{}{{}}{{}{{}}}} or > {{{{}}{}}{{}}{}}. (Allowing any equivalent ordering would complicate the > judging, and I don't see offhand that it'd allow for a shorter program.) > Maybe even use, as a second problem: read a definition and output the > number? :) > > I have thought about this a little, but not yet developed a real algorithm. > If we do this I will try to get my answer in long enough before deadline to > counteract my head start. > > -Daniel. > -- > () ASCII ribbon campaign > /\ against HTML mail > > > > > -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 18 04:32:22 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gEvS-000O0q-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:32:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:32:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gEvA-000O0k-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:32:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:31:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gEv2-000O0e-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 04:31:52 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7I1Vm612323 for ; Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:31:49 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:31:36 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: [golf] Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Further decisions made since then: -commas are indeed omitted. -program should not provide a final newline. -input is binary, and one byte long. -we were thinking the program should thus be valid for 0-255, though even 100 would take somewhat longer to run than the universe is expected to last; but we got into a side-dispute over automatic judging vs. allowing some human intervention, which (if I remember right) is still unresolved; the 255 case can be tested automatically by running it a minute and checking for overflow, anyway. -sets may appear in any order, as Bertram wrote a program to decode them. -deadline is still not set, nor the submission mechanism in place; hopefully both will happen well before deadline. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail > > Here you go.. > > On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Daniel wrote: > >> A possible problem for the next contest: >> A common definition of natural numbers, due to John von Neumann, defines >> each as the set of all the preceding ones. For instance: >> 0 = {} >> 1 = {{}} >> 2 = {{},{{}}} >> 3 = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} >> ... >> >> So the problem would be: read a number and output the definition. >> Details: Don't know whether we should include the commas. We'd also have to >> specify whether a final return is required, and also the input format >> (binary or ASCII, how many digits, is it EOF-terminated, and so on). One >> more thing: Since sets are indifferent as to order, perhaps we should at >> least allow the reverse order as well, so 3 could be {{}{{}}{{}{{}}}} or >> {{{{}}{}}{{}}{}}. (Allowing any equivalent ordering would complicate the >> judging, and I don't see offhand that it'd allow for a shorter program.) >> Maybe even use, as a second problem: read a definition and output the >> number? :) >> >> I have thought about this a little, but not yet developed a real algorithm. >> If we do this I will try to get my answer in long enough before deadline to >> counteract my head start. >> >> -Daniel. >> -- >> () ASCII ribbon campaign >> /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 18 22:10:22 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gVQY-000Ope-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:09:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:09:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gVOc-000OpX-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:07:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:07:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gVOU-000OpR-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:07:22 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7IJ7Lg04106 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:07:21 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7IJ7Li04347 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:07:21 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:07:21 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck golf In-Reply-To: <200208132318.SAA00180@luminet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, David Seaman wrote: > Could somebody please tell me what the "set theory" problem is? I can't > seem to find it on the list, and it's not under "current contest" on the web > page yet, either. Somebody tried to explain it, but I'm trying myself. It's a well-known definition from foundations of mathematics in set theory, and it goes like this: zero is the empty set. (denoted by {} here) any other number is the set of all numbers less than it (for example 1={0}={{}}, 2={01}={{}{{}}}, 3={012}={{}{{}}{{}{{}}}}) Another formalisation, which leads to the same result: 0 = {} N+1 = N union {N} Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 19 06:21:34 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gd6a-000PY9-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:21:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:21:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gd5V-000PXb-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:20:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:20:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu ([18.7.21.83]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gd5M-000PXV-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:20:08 +0300 Received: from central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (CENTRAL-CITY-CARRIER-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.72]) by pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA01853 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 23:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from manawatu-mail-centre.mit.edu (MANAWATU-MAIL-CENTRE.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.71]) by central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA16693 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 23:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (pool-141-154-220-248.bos.east.verizon.net [141.154.220.248]) by manawatu-mail-centre.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA19900 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 23:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 23:20:04 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] 2D BF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk X-list: misc BF could easily be extended to operate on a 2D array. Two new commands and you're there, the spirit and elegance of BF intact, with a wealth of new possibilities. Like programs where some loops move the pointer in actual loops, or across one array and back across another below it. Anyone else find this intriguing? -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 19 06:54:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gdcc-000Pa8-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:54:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:54:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gdcL-000Pa2-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:54:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:54:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mrwaynxd-new.lnk.telstra.net ([139.130.76.194] helo=gateway.michel.com.au) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gdc8-000PZw-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 06:54:01 +0300 Received: from ork (ork.michel.com.au [203.18.139.105]) by gateway.michel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g7J3rqA11597 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:53:52 +1000 From: "Ryan Michel" To: Subject: [lang] Re: 2D BF Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:54:59 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk X-list: misc does sound interestingt, i'll have to write an interpreter. Shouldn't be much different to a normal bf interpreter and then I can write some programs with it. It wouldn't even be that hard to add more dimensions but thats getting to much like befunge for my tastes. ryan -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of David Greenspan Sent: Monday, 19 August 2002 1:20 PM To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] 2D BF BF could easily be extended to operate on a 2D array. Two new commands and you're there, the spirit and elegance of BF intact, with a wealth of new possibilities. Like programs where some loops move the pointer in actual loops, or across one array and back across another below it. Anyone else find this intriguing? -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. 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Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 19 11:38:14 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gi2r-00008N-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:37:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:37:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gi2E-000082-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:37:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:37:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gi26-00007w-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:37:06 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7J8b1g30997 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:37:04 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7J8awb09248 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:36:58 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:36:58 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [source] graphical source (was Re: portable basketball sets) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, Daniel wrote: > > Yup, though I think it would be more interesting if the language would > > be able to produce new pictures also, not only change its own state. > If it changes its own state enough it will have made a new picture, right? > (Same size, of course, unless there are commands to change that.) The wording in that posting was exceptionally unclear, even to be written by me... what I meant was, it would be rather nice for the language to have first-class pictures, so that levels of abstraction could be easily built... -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 19 12:15:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gidF-0000Hl-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:15:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:15:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gibb-0000HC-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:13:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:13:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp-relay01.tc.dsvr.net ([212.69.192.4]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gibS-0000H1-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:13:38 +0300 Received: from [212.69.195.234] (helo=suppose.dsvr.co.uk) by smtp-relay01.tc.dsvr.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #3) id 17gibK-0000Af-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:13:30 +0100 Received: from dirtyape (host217-35-89-7.in-addr.btopenworld.com [217.35.89.7]) by suppose.dsvr.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7J9DUH15954 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:13:30 +0100 From: "Edward George" To: Subject: [lang] Re: 2D BF Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:22:37 +0100 Message-ID: <000001c24761$f62b5530$f400a8c0@dirtyape> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ed@suppose.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ed@suppose.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is something I started to write an interpreter for a while ago but never finished. I thought it would be useful for keeping work area away from the main array and also useful in 2d cellular automata programming. It would be great if someone else did it saving me the effort:) Ed, Nottingham UK ed@suppose.co.uk http://ed.suppose.co.uk http://www.suppose.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi] On Behalf Of David Greenspan Sent: 19 August 2002 04:20 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] 2D BF BF could easily be extended to operate on a 2D array. Two new commands and you're there, the spirit and elegance of BF intact, with a wealth of new possibilities. Like programs where some loops move the pointer in actual loops, or across one array and back across another below it. Anyone else find this intriguing? -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 19 16:10:42 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gmIg-00013c-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:10:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:10:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gmI7-00013F-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:09:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:09:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from zonorus.marlboro.edu ([216.114.150.3]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gmHy-000139-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:09:47 +0300 Received: from localhost (jproctor@localhost) by zonorus.marlboro.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA27450 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:09:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Jason Proctor X-Sender: jproctor@zonorus.marlboro.edu To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [source] graphical source (was Re: portable basketball sets) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jproctor@gradcenter.marlboro.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jproctor@gradcenter.marlboro.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > > Yup, though I think it would be more interesting if the language would > > be able to produce new pictures also, not only change its own state. > If it changes its own state enough it will have made a new picture, right? > (Same size, of course, unless there are commands to change that.) A former student of mine and I were toying this past spring with a semi-steganographic visual language, loosely based on weird and BF. It relied on the system having access to a reference image (could be the Mona Lisa, could be plain white, whatever) and an altered one as the source. It compared the two images and used the "trail" of slight variations in hue, saturation, and value as its input. We didn't actually get very far, but I keep meaning to dust off the spec and clean it up some and post it. Maybe someday... j -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 19 23:09:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gspF-0001jK-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:08:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:08:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gsog-0001jE-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:07:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:07:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu ([18.7.21.83]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gsoY-0001j8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:07:50 +0300 Received: from central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (CENTRAL-CITY-CARRIER-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.72]) by pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA23723 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:07:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (MELBOURNE-CITY-STREET.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.86]) by central-city-carrier-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA12909 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:07:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (pool-141-154-220-248.bos.east.verizon.net [141.154.220.248]) by melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA19703 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:07:45 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:07:47 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] 2D BF Example Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1182334826==_============" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --============_-1182334826==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Here is an example of BF 2D in action. I modified the Python interpreter to be a 2D interpreter. The program, "add", takes two arbitrarily large ASCII numbers, each followed by a line feed, and adds them by adding down the columns much the way humans do. "addshort" is the same program with the comments stripped. For more information see the notes at the top of each file. -- David --============_-1182334826==_============ Content-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; name="brain2d.py"; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="brain2d.py" ; modification-date="Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:01:35 -0400" #!/usr/bin/python """ 2-D Brainfuck Interpreter Note: Making these modifications has been my first experience with Python, so I don't know all the tricks, caveats, etc. Changes made to Nikita's original source: - Memory ptr is now an ordered pair (< and > affect first index) - Memory is 2-D (list of lists), starting out as BUFFER_SIZE x BUFFER_SIZE, and growing right or down by BUFFER_SIZE when necessary - Recognized commands for vertical movement are '^' and 'V'; comments in a program can be made all lowercase to prevent use of 'V' - The '$' command prints a '$' to stdout, as a debugging tool - Errors now go to stdout, because when they went to stderr they would appear before $s were flushed out of stdout - Binary input can be accomplished using a backquote (`) followed by two hex digits; a backquote can be input as `60 - I don't think I broke anything making these changes, but I've only tried running this with default IO settings """ """A very strict Brainfuck interpreter.""" import re, sys, string BUFFER_SIZE = 32 def run(program, input=None, output=None, max_steps=-1, extended_interpretation=0, no_input=0, value_to_return=None): """Runs a Brainfuck program given as a string. If 'input' is None, stdin is used. 'input' can be a string or a tuple; tuples are only used if extended_interpretation is non-zero, and should be more or less obvious in that case. If 'output' is None, stdout is used; otherwise no output is done, but the program output is compared against 'output' and an exception is raised if they are not equal. if max_steps is < 0, there is no restriction. 'extended_interpretation' is interesting. If it's non-zero, then program output is evaluated as a brainfuck program 'extended_interpretation' times. Only the last such program will be checked against the given 'output'. Each can have its own value for 'input', given as an element of the tuple; if some of the programs don't need input, set the appropriate tuple elements to "". If 'no_input' is non-zero, any attempt to use the ',' operator results in an exception being raised. Value returned is the [rightmost,bottommost] position of the pointer in memory. If an error occures, Exception is raised.""" # create a dict of brackets pairs, for speed later on parens={} open_parens=[] for pos in range(len(program)): if program[pos] == '[': open_parens.append(pos) elif program[pos] == ']': if len(open_parens) > 0: parens[pos] = open_parens[-1] parens[open_parens[-1]] = pos open_parens.pop() else: raise Exception, "Unbalanced parentheses!" if len(open_parens) != 0: raise Exception, "Unbalanced parentheses!" # now we can start interpreting pc = 0 # program counter mp = [0,0] # memory pointer steps = 0 memory = [([0] * BUFFER_SIZE) for i in range(BUFFER_SIZE)] #initial memory area rightmost = 0 bottommost = 0 if input != None: if type(input) == type(()): # we'll only be using input[0] right now inputs, input = input, input[0] input_pointer = 0 if extended_interpretation: my_output = "" #we'll save the output here if output != None: output_pointer = 0 if no_input: eof_reached = 1 else: eof_reached = 0 # the main program loop: while pc < len(program): if program[pc] == '+': memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] = memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] + 1 if memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] == 256: raise Exception, "Cell overflow" elif program[pc] == '-': memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] = memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] - 1 if memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] < 0: raise Exception, "Cell underflow" elif program[pc] == '>': mp[0] = mp[0] + 1 if mp[0] > rightmost: rightmost = mp[0] if mp[0] >= len(memory): memory = memory + [([0]*len(memory[0])) for i in range(BUFFER_SIZE)] # no restriction on memory growth! elif program[pc] == '<': mp[0] = mp[0] - 1 if mp[0] < 0: raise Exception, "Memory pointer underflow (left)" elif program[pc] == 'V': mp[1] = mp[1] + 1 if mp[1] > bottommost: bottommost = mp[1] if mp[1] >= len(memory[0]): for i in range(len(memory)): memory[i] = memory[i]+[0]*BUFFER_SIZE elif program[pc] == '^': mp[1] = mp[1] - 1 if mp[1] < 0: raise Exception, "Memory pointer underflow (top)" elif program[pc] == '.': if output == None: sys.stdout.write(chr(memory[mp[0]][mp[1]])) else: if extended_interpretation != 0: my_output = my_output + chr(memory[mp[0]][mp[1]]) else: if output_pointer == len(output) or chr(memory[mp[0]][mp[1]]) != output[output_pointer]: raise Exception, "Program output doesn't match required output" output_pointer = output_pointer+1 elif program[pc] == ',': if eof_reached: raise Exception, "Program tries reading past EOF" if input == None: char = sys.stdin.read(1) if char == '': # EOF memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] = 0 eof_reached = 1 else: if char == chr(96): #backquote memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] = int(sys.stdin.read(2),16) # no EOF checking after backquote! else: memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] = ord(char) else: if input_pointer == len(input): # EOF memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] = 0 eof_reached = 1 else: char = input[input_pointer] input_pointer = input_pointer + 1 if char == chr(96): #backquote # no EOF checking! memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] = int(input[input_pointer]+input[input_pointer+1],16) input_pointer = input_pointer + 2 else: memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] = ord(input[input_pointer]) elif program[pc] == '[': if memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] == 0: pc = parens[pc] elif program[pc] == ']': if memory[mp[0]][mp[1]] != 0: pc = parens[pc] elif program[pc] == '$': sys.stdout.write('$') pc = pc + 1 steps = steps + 1 if max_steps >= 0 and steps > max_steps: raise Exception, "Maximum number of steps exceeded" # end of while loop if output != None and not extended_interpretation: if output_pointer != len(output): raise Exception, "Program finished, but not all required output printed" if value_to_return == None: value_to_return = rightmost if extended_interpretation: run(re.findall("[[\]<>+-.,V^]",my_output), inputs[1:], output, max_steps, extended_interpretation-1, no_input, value_to_return) return [rightmost,bottommost] # end of run() if __name__ == '__main__': if len(sys.argv) != 2: print "Syntax: " + sys.argv[0] + " " else: try: program_file = open(sys.argv[1]) program = re.findall("[[\]<>+-.,V^$]",program_file.read()) try: run(program) except Exception, message: sys.stdout.write("\n\nERROR: " + str(message)) except IOError: print "Cannot open file '" + sys.argv[0] + "'" --============_-1182334826==_============ Content-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; name="add.bf"; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="add.bf" ; modification-date="Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:59:06 -0400" // addition of arbitrarily large numbers // // example of the use of brainfuck 2d // // input: two positive integers of arbitrary size in normal ascii form // each followed by a line feed (char 10) // output: the sum in ascii // // numbers are stored as strings of base 10 digits with the ones place on // the left; the two numbers are stored in rows 0 and 1 and adding is done // down the columns into row 2 // // the program obeys the strict rules used in golf // mark the two rows to read digits into +V+^ // for each of the two rows // input digits inserting new ones on the left // and shifting the others to the right // this makes the left most digit the ones place // ie the number is stored backwards [ ->>,---------- [ [>]<[[>+<-]<]>,---------- ] // here we are at col 2 with the digits to the right // subtract 37 from the digits // after this digits '0' to '9' are represented by numbers 1 to 10 // digits are generally stored offset here so that strings of digits // can be 0 terminated <++++++[>++++++<-]>+ [>[->]<[<]>-] // back to col 0 and down <>>[>]V // if it is then swap the numbers [[<]>[[V+^-]^[V+^-]VV[^^+VV-]^>]] // return to (0 2) ^<[<] // for each digit >[ // add rows 0 and 1 to row 2 which was either 0 or 1 if a carry occurred // subtract 1 from each digit being added to get back to 0 to 9 range [-[VV+^^-]]V[-[V+^-]]V // put a 10 below it (row 3) and a 1 to the right in row 2 // where the carry digit goes V++++++++++^ >+< // keep subtracting one from row 2 and row 3 // if sum was under 10 the sum cell will run out leaving // the ptr in row 2 with the difference below it // if the sum was 10 or above the 10 cell (row 3) will run out first // and the ptr will overshoot row 2 and the loop will end // with the ptr in row 1 and the difference below it [-V-[V]^^] // this will go to the row 2 cell with the 1 in it (the carry cell) // in the case of a carry and the cell below that (0) otherwise V> // after the following the ptr is in row 3 no matter what // and the row 2 cell has a value of (carry ? 2 : 1) [+V] // correct the carry digit ^- // if a carry occurred then the sum digit is correct // otherwise it must be set to 10 minus the cell below it // the digit is left as a number 1 to 10 representing a digit 0 to 9 ^^ ] // a carried 1 at the end must become a 2 because digits are offset by 1 // and then we go back to col 2 VV[+>]<[<] // add 47 to the digits <++++++[>++++++++<-]>- [>[+>]<[<]>-] // output them right to left >[>]<[.<] ++++++++++. --============_-1182334826==_============ Content-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; name="addshort.bf"; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="addshort.bf" ; modification-date="Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:02:15 -0400" +V+^ [ ->>,---------- [ [>]<[[>+<-]<]>,---------- ] <++++++[>++++++<-]>+ [>[->]<[<]>-] <>>[>]V [[<]>[[V+^-]^[V+^-]VV[^^+VV-]^>]] ^<[<] >[ [-[VV+^^-]]V[-[V+^-]]V V++++++++++^ >+< [-V-[V]^^] V> [+V] ^- ^^ ] VV[+>]<[<] <++++++[>++++++++<-]>- [>[+>]<[<]>-] >[>]<[.<] ++++++++++. --============_-1182334826==_============-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 20 02:15:10 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gvji-0001uO-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:15:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:14:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gvj0-0001uI-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:14:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:14:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mk-smarthost-4.mail.uk.tiscali.com ([212.74.114.40]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17gvis-0001uC-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:14:10 +0300 Received: from [212.159.160.197] (helo=atuan) by mk-smarthost-4.mail.uk.tiscali.com with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17gvjB-000JdO-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:14:30 +0100 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:13:35 +0100 From: Iain Craig To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: portable basketball sets In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <20020820000924.08D9.IAIN@coldcity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.00.03 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: iain@coldcity.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: iain@coldcity.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Surprised no-one's mentioned Piet - I guess the author's not on the list just now. Check out http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html Piet source is very pretty. (since this is my first post in a very long time) I was interested in the Eso OS project a while back; I have a skeletal OS that's more developed than just a bootloader (which is as far as many OS projects seem to get) that could be adapted for various esoteric purposes; check out me site. There's also a variable-target slightly optimising brainfuck compiler there. === Iain C www.coldcity.com code, pics, life -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 20 10:54:00 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17h3pf-0002ps-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:53:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:53:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17h3oo-0002ph-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:52:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:52:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from posti.pp.htv.fi ([212.90.64.50]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17h3of-0002pb-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:52:41 +0300 Received: from welho.com ([213.243.182.229]) by posti.pp.htv.fi (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g7K7qdH15140 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:52:39 +0300 (EETDST) Message-ID: <3D61F551.2000004@welho.com> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:52:49 +0300 From: Juha =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E4rvi?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020208 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Javascript Befunge interpreter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mooz@welho.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mooz@welho.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I just finished a Javascript Befunge interpreter with single-stepping, breakpoints, stack view and the works. Its speed seems to be on the same level as Visbef's when running under IE although I don't know how that is possible. It's currently available at http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/jsbef or http://quux.befunge.org/jsbef The command handlers are compiled from pseudocode when the page loads and can be easily changed to modify the way the interpreter works, although at the moment the interpreter must first be saved to the local machine to make the changes to the html source. Here's a snippet to illustrate this: / c = c / b % c = c % b ! if b then b = 0 else b = 1 ` if c > b then c = 1 else c = 0 g c = [c, b] p [c, b] = d Hunt the Wumpus and my quicksort and other funky stuff can now be run on anything with a decent web browser :) Here's the browser compatibility list so far: Works: IE 5.x/Windows (IE's Javascript engine is apparently the fastest) Mozilla 1.0/Windows Mozilla 1.0/Linux Doesn't work: Opera/anything (regexp problems) Konqueror/Linux (stylesheet problems) a few earlier Mozillas/Linux (very weird problems) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 25 07:06:38 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17ioed-000O6B-00; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 07:05:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 25 Aug 2002 07:05:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17iob8-000O5I-00; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 07:01:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 25 Aug 2002 07:01:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.93]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17iob0-000O56-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 07:01:50 +0300 Received: from host213-122-243-167.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.122.243.167] helo=default) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17ioak-0007FY-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 25 Aug 2002 05:01:34 +0100 Message-ID: <02f401c24bec$6dae4de0$a7f37ad5@default> From: "thedeepervoid" To: Subject: [lang] constellation - a graphical 3d language Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 05:03:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: thedeepervoid@btinternet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: thedeepervoid@btinternet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc [the following message cobbled together from several emails in my sent folder to a friend that i retrieved and decided to post when i saw mention of image based languages on this mailinglist] befunge has got me thinking... befunge's use of a grid is too normal for a truly weird programming language - how about a (3d) `constellation' of points having (floating point) coordinates. The flow of execution could go from the current point to the closest one to it, other than the one that has just been visited. (possibly the second closest in the event of conditional jumps). The distances and directions between points could be used to encode operations. Data could be stored as clouds or chains of points. Perhaps a `colour' would need to be attached to each point, although this dilutes the conceptual simplicity of the idea somewhat. in addition to a 3d `constellation' of points having (floating point) coordinates, a stack could also exist (like the division in befunge) - the items on this stack needn't be points, they may be shapes defined in terms of points (eg, circle, plane, line, tetrahedron...). The items on the stack reference the same space the 'constellation' exists in, although the 2 are distinct, and the state of the stack is per-thread. thus the terms Stack and Constellation(Constellation space) acquire their respective meanings Operations include CENTRE find centre of shape IF conditional branch on 2 shapes overlapping (ie,alternate branches of execution look like branches in the code. logical loops may visually look like loops,unlike lesser languages with a text based syntax) INTERSECT find intersection of 2 shapes(eg, sphere intersect plane => circle) - may be undefined depending on the 2 shapes DISPLACE displace shape by vector specified by line segment RANDOMPOINT pick random point in shape... LITERAL push point of current instruction on stack NOP do nothing - this may be needed to preserve spacing GOTO takes a point from stack and goes to it(this should rarely be needed) OUTLINE (eg, a cube becomes 6 squares, a filled sphere becomes a hollow sphere) TYPEDESTROY remove type information of shape (eg, circle simply becomes centre point and one of the points on the circumference) ...if the type information is retained elsewhere the inver se is ... NEW?? family of commands that builds shape from some points (eg, NEWCIRCLE from centre and a point on the circumference, NEWLINE also accepts 2 points but they are 2 points on the line, NEWPLANE uses 3 points in the plane, NEWCIRCLEA uses 3 points on the circumference of the circle...) (these operators operate only on stack, using the constellation only to get instructions) PLOT Plot point NCP find (nth) closest point ERASE erase point TRANSFORM apply transformation on points in region of the constellation specified by a shape(such that it transforms old triangle specified on stack to new triangle specified on stack) - this allows rotations translations etc FOREACH for each point (finds all points in constellation that overlap a given shape on the stack, and creates a new thread for each one, with a stack that is a duplicate of the parent thread, but for the relevant point on top - the parent thread continues running along the other branch of the code similar to an IF) (these also operate on the constellation) the stack cannot necessarily contain arbitrary shapes, only those that the interpreter can perform IF CENTRE RANDOMPOINT etc on. the space in which the constellation resides can contain only a finite number of points PLOTted in advance. a way of procedurally trapping accesses from within constellation allowing shapes to be defined that aren't built in may be useful- ie, a wormhole could be defined such that accesses to a certain sphere all go through to another part of the constellation altogether unless a program with a higher privilege level looks there without lowering its privilege level in which case it sees some code that traps requests, translates and rotates them (see TRANSFORM) and accesses some other part of space. I/O is a fairly minor issue and will be irrelevant when the entire universe is a constellation program, but access to files, stdin/out, windowing, sound i/o, and network sockets are needed if befunge is to be firmly kept in its place as a lesser language. File format can be either a binary file or a simple text format eg, C* Ver0 (45,8,4.66) #this is a comment (0,45,455) THREAD: IP(7,4,5) STACK CIRCLE(45,7,88)(31,-9,9) POINT(78,5,2) THREAD: IP(888,19,6) STACK PLANE(45,8,4.66)(0,45,455)(1,-2,-5) LINE(-15,45,16.165,37)(12,3,2) Actually implementing this thing may be awkward. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 28 17:22:33 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17k3h4-0006uY-00; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:21:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:21:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17k3c2-0006uD-00; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:16:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:15:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17k3bt-0006u7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:15:54 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7SEFmv24981; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:15:49 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:15:34 -0700 Subject: [lang] [brainfuck and brainfuck golf] Brainfuck wiki. From: Daniel To: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020808191929.C22152@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Okay, the new brainfuck wiki seems to have been fixed. So it's open for brainfuck golf content or other brainfuck content. Let me know if it's still broken for any of your browsers. If not, we might or might not want to transfer the Brainfuck Golf discussion there. The advantage is that it's pretty flexible and it's not, well, Yahoo. The disadvantage is that, though there is a mechanism to get notified by email when a page changes, it involves putting your address in the code for the page, which makes it viewable by anyone editing the page; worse, since what's sent by email is the code, not the processed version, everyone's address is sent to everyone whenever the page changes. Don't know how much of a problem that is... The other thing is, it sends two copies for some reason. :) Anyway, the address again is: http://www.seedwiki.com/page.cfm?wikiid=794&doc=BrainFuck -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 28 21:33:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17k7bu-0007K8-00; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:32:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:31:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17k7Yk-0007J2-00; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:28:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:28:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu ([18.7.21.83]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17k7Yc-0007Iw-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:28:46 +0300 Received: from grand-central-station.mit.edu (GRAND-CENTRAL-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.82]) by pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA13862 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:28:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (MELBOURNE-CITY-STREET.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.86]) by grand-central-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA06267 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [18.242.5.153] (NEXT-ONE-FIFTY-THREE.MIT.EDU [18.242.5.153]) by melbourne-city-street.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA27909 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:28:42 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck and brainfuck golf] Brainfuck wiki. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Maybe this will keep the list from being flooded as it has been for the past week :). -- David >Okay, the new brainfuck wiki seems to have been fixed. So it's open for >brainfuck golf content or other brainfuck content. Let me know if it's still >broken for any of your browsers. If not, we might or might not want to >transfer the Brainfuck Golf discussion there. The advantage is that it's >pretty flexible and it's not, well, Yahoo. The disadvantage is that, though >there is a mechanism to get notified by email when a page changes, it >involves putting your address in the code for the page, which makes it >viewable by anyone editing the page; worse, since what's sent by email is >the code, not the processed version, everyone's address is sent to everyone >whenever the page changes. Don't know how much of a problem that is... >The other thing is, it sends two copies for some reason. :) >Anyway, the address again is: >http://www.seedwiki.com/page.cfm?wikiid=794&doc=BrainFuck > >-Daniel. >-- > () ASCII ribbon campaign > /\ against HTML mail > > >-- >To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: >unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] >unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Sep 01 13:36:57 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17lS51-000Grp-00; Sun, 01 Sep 2002 13:35:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 01 Sep 2002 13:35:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17lS0a-000GrF-00; Sun, 01 Sep 2002 13:31:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 01 Sep 2002 13:31:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web14005.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.175.121]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17lS0R-000Gr9-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 01 Sep 2002 13:30:59 +0300 Message-ID: <20020901103056.14038.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.248.151.233] by web14005.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 01 Sep 2002 11:30:56 BST Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 11:30:56 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stephen=20Sykes?= Subject: [lang] Befunge & BrainF. in the news To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Readers of this list may be interested in this article I noticed in New Scientist: Bliss New Scientist vol 175 issue 2354 - 03 August 2002, page 47 Not a new drug on the club scene or a state of mind devoutly to be wished for. No, this is an obscure computer language, one of thousands of candidates for inclusion in a proposed museum of software languages. Why would anyone bother? Because the history of computer languages is the history of our attempts to deal with mechanical intelligence. And if we don't collect them now, they'll crumble away like broken clay tablets from Babylon. We'll end up with only indecipherable fragments from which to reconstruct our past. Grady Booch, the man behind the idea and a writer of books about software, says the museum will provide "the raw materials for future generations of software archaeologists, historians and software developers". Is this going to be just a vast electronic archive? Not at all. To keep a language alive it has to be used. Computer manuals are always incomplete and often incorrect, so we can't rely on them to help. The answer is to write new programs to compile or interpret source code written in old languages so it will run on current computers. It also means maintaining old computers to run the old compilers, so Booch is collaborating with the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley, which does just that (New Scientist, 9 February, p40). Amazingly, there may already be more computer languages than spoken ones. We found more than 2500 languages and dialects at http://cui.unige.ch/langlist, with even more variety than human tongues. The difference between Pascal and C, say, is as big as that between High German and Californian teenage slang. We hope there'll be a twisty little gallery in the museum for truly weird languages. Some are meant to be jokes about America, but actually may reveal as much about people who spend too long in front of computer screens. Take Valgol. It stands for "Valley girl" in tribute to Los Angeles suburban teenagers who are notorious for being airheads - which is why the language contains statements such as "FOR I = LIKE 1 TO OH*MAYBE 100" ("I, like, maybe" captures how Valley girls speak). Then there's BrainF***, an exercise in euphemism and minimalism. The asterisks in its name tell an obvious story, and while it has just eight one-character commands it is powerful enough to define its own compiler - in a mere 3162 bytes. Befunge, on the other hand, is the language of total confusion: its programs flow in more than one direction so you can write it but you can't read it because you never know where it will go. To judge from the response to a letter that Booch sent to 500 software fiends proposing the idea, the museum is going to take off. More than 100 are jumping at the chance to get involved. Any more takers? +- S.D.Sykes - www.stephensykes.com - +358 50 577 3879 - | Homer: Oh, Lord! Why do You mock me? | Marge: Homer, that's not God. That's a waffle Bart stuck to the ceiling. | (Marge pries the waffle off the ceiling.) | Homer: Lord, I know I shouldn't eat Thee, but... (munch munch munch) | mmm... sacrelicious. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Sep 19 13:35:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17ryda-000L0h-00; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:34:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:34:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17ryaP-000KzX-00; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:31:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:30:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17ryaH-000KzR-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:30:57 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8JAUga15113; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 03:30:42 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 03:30:27 -0700 Subject: [lang] The usual trivial brainfuck-to-C translator, only written in brainfuck. dbf2c.b From: Daniel To: , , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020808191929.C22152@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc +++[>+++++<-]>[>++>++++++>++++>+++++++>+++++++>+++>++++>+[<]>-] >+++++.>>>.+++++.>------.<--.+++++++++.>+.+.<<<<---.[>]<<.<<<.-------.>++++.<+++ ++.+.>-----.>+.<++++.>>++.>-----. <<<-----.+++++.-------.<--.<<<.>>>.<<+.>------.-..--.+++.-----<++.<--[>+<-]> >>>>--.--.<++++.>>-.<<<.>>>--.>. <<<<-----.>----.++++++++.----<+.+++++++++>>--.+.++<<<<.[>]<.>> ,[>>++++++[<+++++++>-]<<[[->]<<]<[>>+<]>>[-]<[<+++++>-[<+>-[<+>-[<+>-[+<-[>[ -[-[>+<-]]]>[<+>-]<<-]>[<+++>-[<--->-[<++++>-[<+++[>[-[-[-[-[>+<-]]]]]>[<+>- ]<<-]>[<+>-[<->-[<++>-[<-->[-]]]]]]]]]]]]]] <[ -[-[>+<-]>] <[<<<<.>+++.+.+++.-------.>---.++.<.>-.++<<<<.[>]>>>>>>>] <[[<]>++.--[>]>>>>>>] <[<<++..--<.>>.>>>>>>>] <[<<..<.>>.>>>>>>] <[<<..-.+<.>>.>>>>>] <[<<<<-----.+++++>.----.+++.+>---.<<<-.----.>>.<<.+++++.>>>+.++>.>>>>] <[<<++..---.+<.>>.>>>] <[<<<<.-----.>++++.<++.+++>----.>---.<<<.-----.>>.<<.+++++.>>>+.++>.>>] <.> ]> ,] <<<<<.<+.>++++.<----.>>---.<<<-.>>>+.>.>.[<]>++.[>]<. >[Translates brainfuck to C. Assumes EOF->0 or no-change-on-EOF. Generated C does no-change-on-EOF, and uses unistd.h read and write calls. Daniel B. Cristofani (cristofd@hevanet.com).] -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Sep 25 03:15:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17tzoL-000IPv-00; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 03:13:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 25 Sep 2002 03:13:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17tzlF-000IPm-00; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 03:10:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 25 Sep 2002 03:10:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com ([62.253.162.47]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17tzl7-000IPX-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 03:10:29 +0300 Received: from thehammer ([213.107.144.129]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020925001018.YHVH2092.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@thehammer> for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 01:10:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 01:09:38 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: PSS Bulk Mailer V1.3 SpamTraceNotes: smtp.ntlworld.com is the actual SMTP mail server that sent this email. From: DoNotReply@notthere.com To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Tired with the XP search Facility, Check this out Message-Id: <20020925001018.YHVH2092.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@thehammer> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: DoNotReply@notthere.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: DoNotReply@notthere.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc http://www.findfilesxp.com This program is up to 100 times faster than the XP search, with much more functionality. It has many more features like multiple string searches (With replace options), and can prieview Movies, Pictures and ascii (Text) files, Can search selected drives and folders (and NOT search too). Its also free to try, and only $10 to buy. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Oct 05 00:45:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17xaFP-000Gs7-00; Sat, 05 Oct 2002 00:44:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 05 Oct 2002 00:44:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17xaCA-000Grx-00; Sat, 05 Oct 2002 00:41:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 05 Oct 2002 00:41:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17xaC1-000Grr-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 05 Oct 2002 00:41:06 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g94LeuA01662; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:40:42 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi, friends-of-brainfuck@koeln.ccc.de, bfgolf@yahoogroups.com From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Brainfuck Golf contest #1 starting Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc The goal is to write the shortest brainfuck program to do a certain task--in this case, one taken from the foundations of mathematics. As a workaround for problems with sourceforge, we've decided to gather md5s from both the yahoo group and the wiki from October 8 through 21, then get the matching source code on or after the 22nd. For more information see the rules at http://seedwiki.com/page.cfm?doc=brainfuckgolfonerules&wikiid=794 Send any questions &c. to bfgolf@yahoogroups.com or put them on the wiki (hopefully before the 8th so everything can be resolved before the contest officially begins). Good luck; -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Oct 07 13:53:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17yVSw-000N7J-00; Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:50:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:50:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17yVSp-000N7C-00; Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:50:16 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:50:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17yVSo-000N76-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:50:14 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g97Ao9A15399 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2002 03:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 03:49:54 -0700 To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [chat] So a "foreign-handed foreign policy"... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc ...is one that's foreign to America's professed ethical standards. And you thought it was just a verbal slip! Watch as dealing with esoteric language becomes a survival skill. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign () Hopeless ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail /\ against gratuitous bloodshed From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Oct 10 13:06:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17zaBT-000BeF-00; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:04:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:04:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17za8C-000Bcm-00; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:01:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:01:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17za84-000Bca-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:01:16 +0300 Received: from irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.66]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g9AA1CR06450 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:01:13 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.2) id g9AA1C323614 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:01:12 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:01:11 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Yet another Brainfuck compiler Message-ID: <20021010120111.A23420@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hi, after thinking about optimizing Brainfuck code for quite a while (actually I think I've been toying with the idea for at least a year now), I finally gave it a shot and implemented it. Actually, I implemented two versions, one based on a simple vector approach to optimize + and - operations working on the same cell as well as for optimizing simple loops which don't move the pointer, and just add constants to some variables in each iteration, where the constant for the 'loop counter' must be -1 or 1. Then I generalized the idea a bit, because I realized what I really needed there was dependency analysis; the current version is pretty much completely based on this and a few rules. Feel free to toy around with it; I'll admit I only really tested it with prime.bf where the results were very encouraging. You can find the beast at http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/brainfxxx/, bf2c.hs and bf2c. It works as a filter and generates C code, rather than native code, which seems to be a standard approach for implementing compilers. To get an impression of the code produced, have a look at http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/brainfxxx/prime.c which corresponds to http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/brainfxxx/prime.b (the .b extension is my preferred version of the .bf extension ;) regards, Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Oct 10 15:40:48 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17zccJ-000Cwc-00; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:40:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:40:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [200.69.229.5] (helo=bigfoot.com) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 17zccA-000CwU-00; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:40:31 +0300 Received: from 202.243.63.145 ([202.243.63.145]) by n7.groups.huyahoo.com with NNFMP; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 01:41:26 +1100 Reply-To: Message-ID: <023d05e17e4b$7532e5c2$2ab16cc6@vhmbds> From: To: Cc: Subject: Create a PAYCHECK with your COMPUTER and Enjoy Cheap ISP & Huge Shopping Discount Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:14:59 +0300 MiME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Importance: Normal X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: hugh7134d14@bigfoot.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hi - ( http://www.cccen.com/homefree/sandodo/ ) You get emails every day, offering to show you how to make money. Most of these emails are from people who are NOT making any money. And they expect you to listen to them? Enough. If you want to make money with your computer, then you should hook up with a group that is actually DOING it. We are making a large, continuing income every month. What's more - we will show YOU how to do the same thing. This business is done completely by internet and email, and you can even join for free to check it out first. If you can send an email, you can do this. No special "skills" are required. How much are we making? Anywhere from $2000 to $9000 per month. We are real people, and most of us work at this business part-time. But keep in mind, we do WORK at it - I am not going to insult your intelligence by saying you can sign up, do no work, and rake in the cash. That kind of job does not exist. But if you are willing to put in 10-12 hours per week, this might be just the thing you are looking for. This is not income that is determined by luck, or work that is done FOR you - it is all based on your effort. But, as I said, there are no special skills required. And this income is RESIDUAL - meaning that it continues each month (and it tends to increase each month also). Interested? I invite you to find out more. You can get in as a free member, at no cost, and no obligation to continue if you decide it is not for you. We are just looking for people who still have that "burning desire" to find an opportunity that will reward them incredibly well, if they work at it. To grab a FREE ID# and have more information, simply go to the following web address http://www.cccen.com/homefree/sandodo/ and send me an email with: Subject: "Send me a free membership!" Be sure to include your: 1. First name 2. Last name 3. Email address (if different from above) We will confirm your position and send you a special report as soon as possible, and also Your free Member Number. And If you are not interested in tring to Earn Money, :) you are interested in the huge discount from the 140 Online Shops, Very Cheap ISP package and many many more, You can also go to the same web address: http://www.cccen.com/homefree/sandodo/#id-GreatService That's all there's to it. We'll then send you info, and you can make up your own mind. Looking forward to hearing from you! Sincerely, Hugh Zou P.S. After having several negative experiences with network marketing companies I had pretty much given up on them. This is different - there is value, integrity, and a REAL opportunity to have your own home-based business... and finally make real money on the internet. Don't pass this up..you can sign up and test-drive the program for FREE. All you need to do is get your free membership. Unsubscribing: Send a blank email to: removemefromlist@bigfoot.com with "Remove" in the subject line. By submitting a request for a FREE DHS Club Membership, I agree to accept email from the DHS Club for both their consumer and business opportunities. 4825dBRp0-007iRji0014HKSZ0-772CPHK5136Aewl39 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Oct 11 22:53:19 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1805qB-000GtT-00; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:52:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:52:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1805oi-000GtF-00; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:51:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:51:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1805oa-000Gt9-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:51:16 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id g9BJndi6015501 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:49:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1805kH-0000Uk-00 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:46:49 +0300 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:46:49 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [functional] a nice link Message-ID: <20021011194649.GA1896@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Browsing some random web pages, I came across one that lays functional foundations on the definition of forth-like languages: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/philosophy/phimvt/joy/j02maf.html Panu -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Oct 14 03:14:33 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 180srL-000KfE-00; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 03:13:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 14 Oct 2002 03:13:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 180soE-000Kf7-00; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 03:10:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 14 Oct 2002 03:10:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from express.cites.uiuc.edu ([128.174.5.156] ident=mirapoint) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 180so6-000Key-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 03:10:02 +0300 Received: from express.cites.uiuc.edu (localhost.cites.uiuc.edu [127.0.0.1]) by express.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.0-GA) with ESMTP id ACA95284; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:09:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200210140009.ACA95284@express.cites.uiuc.edu> Received: from 130.126.217.190 by express.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.0-GA) with HTTPS/1.1; Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:09:53 -0500 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:09:53 -0500 From: amling@uiuc.edu Subject: [lang] FALSE to TI86 compiler To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Mailer: Webmail Mirapoint Direct 3.2.0-GA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amling@uiuc.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amling@uiuc.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I have written a false parser which presently supports three backends: 1) C code generation 2) interpreting 3) TI86 Z80 assembly code generation If anyone is interested in seeing the monster, I can e-mail it to them. No optimizing whatsoever is done and the thing is implemented rather inefficiently. The handling of command line arguments is shaky in all three backends. The interpreter may or may not work with command line arguments and the two code generators ignore arguments. Furthermore I was unsure how to handle input and output on the TI86 so at present it is disabled. If you desire output you need to use inline code(`[ and `]). For example: [ `[ CALL __POP_HL LD A, L CALL _putc `] ] p: 65 p; ! 66 p; ! 67 p; ! Would print 'ABC'. The worst part is that I'm running this on Linux, but I could not get tasm to work under Linux at all so at present I am using my own hacked together(yet working!) Z80 assembler and my own customized preprocessor. The first line in the generated code is the preprocessor directive to include "all.inc" which contains all the equates I have found. If anyone wants the assembler, the preprocessor, and the include file I can e-mail the object of desire to them. To summarize the TI86 option is used like this: #false code in test.f #generate assembly code falsei -T test.f > test.asm #preprocess kpp test.asm > test.postasm #assemble kz80as test.postasm > test.o #create 86p file mk86p test < test.o > test.86p #send to calculator -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Oct 14 16:28:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1815G8-000N3v-00; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:27:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:27:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1815FQ-000N3T-00; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:27:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:26:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from oe34.law7.hotmail.com ([216.33.236.29] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1815FH-000N2y-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:26:56 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 06:26:23 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [195.163.205.138] From: "Martin Sandin" To: References: <200210140009.ACA95284@express.cites.uiuc.edu> Subject: [lang] Amalthea - an Io interpreter Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:24:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2002 13:26:23.0147 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A2357B0:01C27385] X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: msandin@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: msandin@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc For a (fun) university class I spent some of my summer making sure the = world has an interpreter for the language Io, formerly mentioned on this = list. As life caught up with me it's currently on hold on the way to a = more releasable state, hoping that I get there eventually. It is, = however, a complete and usable(???) Io interpreter. And to my knowledge = the only one available on the web or elsewhere. Io is, as everybody is surely aware of ;), a language with one concept, = continuations. Program flow and data structures are all covered by this = one concept. It makes for hard-to-follow and surely esoteric looking = code :) The language is probably introduced to anyone who knows about it = in the book Advanced Programming Language Design, available for download = on the web. Amalthea is found at: http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/~d97masa/files/amalthea084.zip The distro includes some documentation, the OCaml sources, a Windows(tm) = binary, some examples, and the small standard Io library. Compiling = under Linux should pose no problem (or threat). :-) Hope somone enjoys programming this, Martin -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Oct 15 20:05:45 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 181V8C-0000A9-00; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:05:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:05:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 181V6y-00009u-00; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:04:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:03:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 181V6p-00009m-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:03:55 +0300 Received: from lennie (ctb53-03-p47.wc.saix.net [155.239.138.47]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g9FH366p022843 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:03:14 +0200 (SAT) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:15:49 +0200 From: "D De Villiers (Home)" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <106996700.20021014211549@lando.co.za> To: "amling@uiuc.edu" Subject: [lang] Re: FALSE to TI86 compiler In-Reply-To: <200210140009.ACA95284@express.cites.uiuc.edu> References: <200210140009.ACA95284@express.cites.uiuc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello! Can you please send me a copy to ddevilliers@lando.co.za And also: Where can I find a good TI86 Z80 emulator for MS Windows ? * TIA * Kind Regards, Lennie De Villiers 15 Oct 2002 Email: ddevilliers@lando.co.za (Home) lennie@akura.co.za (Work) ---- aue> I have written a false parser which presently supports three aue> backends: aue> 1) C code generation aue> 2) interpreting aue> 3) TI86 Z80 assembly code generation aue> If anyone is interested in seeing the monster, I can e-mail aue> it to them. aue> No optimizing whatsoever is done and the thing is implemented aue> rather inefficiently. aue> The handling of command line arguments is shaky in all three aue> backends. The interpreter may or may not work with command aue> line arguments and the two code generators ignore arguments. aue> Furthermore I was unsure how to handle input and output on aue> the TI86 so at present it is disabled. If you desire output aue> you need to use inline code(`[ and `]). For example: aue> [ aue> `[ aue> CALL __POP_HL aue> LD A, L aue> CALL _putc aue> `] aue> ] p: aue> 65 p; ! aue> 66 p; ! aue> 67 p; ! aue> Would print 'ABC'. aue> The worst part is that I'm running this on Linux, but I could aue> not get tasm to work under Linux at all so at present I am aue> using my own hacked together(yet working!) Z80 assembler and aue> my own customized preprocessor. The first line in the aue> generated code is the preprocessor directive to aue> include "all.inc" which contains all the equates I have aue> found. If anyone wants the assembler, the preprocessor, and aue> the include file I can e-mail the object of desire to them. aue> To summarize the TI86 option is used like this: aue> #false code in test.f aue> #generate assembly code falsei -T test.f >> test.asm aue> #preprocess kpp test.asm >> test.postasm aue> #assemble aue> kz80as test.postasm > test.o aue> #create 86p file aue> mk86p test < test.o > test.86p aue> #send to calculator -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Oct 15 23:23:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 181YDQ-0000ZX-00; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:22:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:22:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 181YCu-0000ZN-00; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:22:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:22:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from express.cites.uiuc.edu ([128.174.5.156] ident=mirapoint) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 181YCm-0000ZH-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:22:16 +0300 Received: from express.cites.uiuc.edu (localhost.cites.uiuc.edu [127.0.0.1]) by express.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.0-GA) with ESMTP id ACB90608; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:22:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200210152022.ACB90608@express.cites.uiuc.edu> Received: from 130.126.217.190 by express.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.0-GA) with HTTPS/1.1; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:22:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:22:13 -0500 From: amling@uiuc.edu Subject: [lang] Other ridiculous hacks To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Mailer: Webmail Mirapoint Direct 3.2.0-GA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amling@uiuc.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amling@uiuc.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc In addition to the FALSE compiler I've thrown together a few other things people might be interested in: (1) I modified an interpreter of false to support the S and K combinators(in a sort of strange way). (2) I modified an interpreter of a subset of unlambda to support s, k, r, .x, i, v, and ^x/$x as were used in the unlambda tutorial(Example: `^x`$x$x^x``.*$x$x would run same as ```sii``s``s`k.*ii) If anyone is interested in either I can e-mail them. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Oct 17 20:30:22 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 182ESA-0006GZ-00; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:28:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:28:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 182EOY-0006G1-00; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:25:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:25:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 182EOP-0006Fo-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:25:05 +0300 Received: from lennie (ctb54-01-p493.wc.saix.net [155.239.147.237]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g9HHOS6o021625 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:24:29 +0200 (SAT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:36:40 +0200 From: "D De Villiers (Home)" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <3615420153.20021016223640@lando.co.za> To: "amling@uiuc.edu" Subject: [lang] Re: Other ridiculous hacks In-Reply-To: <200210152022.ACB90608@express.cites.uiuc.edu> References: <200210152022.ACB90608@express.cites.uiuc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello, Can you send me a copy please (to ddevilliers@lando.co.za), TIA -- Kind Regards, Lennie De Villiers 17 Oct 2002 Email: ddevilliers@lando.co.za (Home) lennie@akura.co.za (Work) ---- aue> In addition to the FALSE compiler I've thrown together a few other things people might be interested in: aue> (1) I modified an interpreter of false to support the S and K combinators(in a sort of strange way). aue> (2) I modified an interpreter of a subset of unlambda to support s, k, r, .x, i, v, and ^x/$x as were used in the aue> unlambda tutorial(Example: `^x`$x$x^x``.*$x$x would run same as ```sii``s``s`k.*ii) aue> If anyone is interested in either I can e-mail them. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Oct 20 17:45:38 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 183HJR-000DMB-00; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 17:44:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 20 Oct 2002 17:44:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 183HFU-000DLp-00; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 17:40:12 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 20 Oct 2002 17:40:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from aragorn.ads.tuwien.ac.at ([128.131.166.130] ident=root) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 183HFL-000DLg-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 17:40:03 +0300 Received: from localhost (georg@localhost) by aragorn.ads.tuwien.ac.at (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id g9KEdoW16083 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 16:39:50 +0200 Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 16:39:50 +0200 (CEST) From: Georg Kraml To: Subject: [lang] Missing Esoterica Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: georg@ads.tuwien.ac.at Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: georg@ads.tuwien.ac.at Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hi all, I'm looking for a couple of esoteric languages and esoteric language implementations that seem to have disappeared off the Net: (1) Panu Kolliokoski's "brainfunk", formerly living at http://sange.fi/~atehwa/iag/brainfunk.l (2) Jason Reed's "Pascal's Befunge Hackery", formerly http://cantor.res.cmu.edu/bozeman/befunge/ (3) Prfnoff's "BAK", formerly http://www2.thecia.net/users/prfnoff/obslang/obslang.html (4) Assurdo Technologies' Perl Intercal Compiler, formerly http://www.assurdo.com/INTERCAL/ (5) David Benyon's "graffle", formerly http://cus.org.uk/~flagg/graffle Any idea what happened to those, anyone? Regards, Georg -- Georg Kraml georg@ads.tuwien.ac.at Inst. f. Computergraphik, TU Wien (+431) 58801/18629 Favoritenstr. 9-11, A1040 Wien Sprechstunde Fr 14:00-15:00 -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Oct 20 23:36:55 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 183MoN-000E6u-00; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:36:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:36:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 183MnR-000E6l-00; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:35:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:35:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 183MnI-000E6e-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:35:29 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9KKZHD06097 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 2002 13:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 13:35:09 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: Missing Esoterica Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >I'm looking for a couple of esoteric languages and esoteric >language implementations that seem to have disappeared off the Net: While we're at it, does anyone have a copy of Eric Bock's IOCCC entry? -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Oct 21 03:11:23 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 183QA0-000EY5-00; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 03:11:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 21 Oct 2002 03:11:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 183Q9F-000EXy-00; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 03:10:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 21 Oct 2002 03:10:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 183Q97-000EXs-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 03:10:13 +0300 Received: from irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.66]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g9L0A9c09819 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 02:10:10 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.2) id g9L0A9L19642 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 21 Oct 2002 02:10:09 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 02:10:09 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Missing Esoterica Message-ID: <20021021021009.A18972@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Daniel. on Sun, Oct 20, 2002 at 01:35:09PM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Daniel. wrote: > >I'm looking for a couple of esoteric languages and esoteric > >language implementations that seem to have disappeared off the Net: I searched around a bit using the 'Internet Archive Wayback Machine' (http://webdev.archive.org/ links it; the request format seems to be easy enough though: http://web.archive.org/time/dom.ain/path/to/file where one or more of the components can be replaced by stars (actually, glob patterns seem to work fine)) [Brainfunk] it's atehwa-u; http://web.archive.org/web/20010501235654/sange.fi/~atehwa-u/iag/brainfunk.l (and probably Panu still has it somewhere ;) [Befunge Hackery] http://web.archive.org/web/*/cantor.res.cmu.edu/bozeman/befunge/* [BAK] http://web.archive.org/web/*/www2.thecia.net/users/prfnoff/obslang/* [Perl Intercal Compiler] nothing to be found here. http://web.archive.org/web/19990222163318/www.assurdo.com/clc is worth a laugh though, IMO. It does not seem to be lost though, there's a debian package clc-intercal, (see, for example, http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/c/clc-intercal/clc-intercal_0.05.orig.tar.gz) and http://www.antipope.org/charlie/linux/shopper/170.languages.html has an 'escaped' version of it ... Now I wonder why this page says the beast dates from 1997, but this announcement http://ftp.cdut.edu.cn/pub2/CPAN/clpa/1999-04/19990401-123811 dates from 1999 ... [Graffle] http://web.archive.org/web/*/cus.org.uk/~flagg/graffle/* > While we're at it, does anyone have a copy of Eric Bock's IOCCC entry? > -Daniel. http://web.archive.org/web/20011020185614/www.users.qwest.net/~ebock/obfpr.c regards, Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Oct 23 15:38:11 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184Kkk-000NzX-00; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:36:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:36:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184KhM-000Nyk-00; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:33:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:33:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from aragorn.ads.tuwien.ac.at ([128.131.166.130] ident=root) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184KhD-000Nyc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:33:12 +0300 Received: from localhost (georg@localhost) by aragorn.ads.tuwien.ac.at (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id g9NCWu820223 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:32:57 +0200 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:32:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Georg Kraml To: Subject: [lang] Re: Missing Esoterica In-Reply-To: <20021021021009.A18972@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: georg@ads.tuwien.ac.at Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: georg@ads.tuwien.ac.at Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > I searched around a bit using the 'Internet Archive Wayback Machine' Thanks for taking the trouble! Seems to me the fact the Wayback Machine and the Wayback Machine alone still hosts those pages poses an ethical question. Is it OK to link to the archived sites? Or would linking to them mean to disrespect and flout author disposal, the assumption being that if a page is gone its author probably *wants* it to be gone? Well, my apologies if I'm being excessively OT, but I'd be interested in opinion pieces on this. -Georg -- Georg Kraml georg@ads.tuwien.ac.at Inst. f. Computergraphik, TU Wien (+431) 58801/18629 Favoritenstr. 9-11, A1040 Wien Sprechstunde Fr 14:00-15:00 -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Oct 23 18:47:46 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184NjJ-000OY6-00; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:47:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:47:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184NiS-000OXz-00; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:46:40 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:46:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from eden.suomi.net ([212.50.131.142]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184NiK-000OXs-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:46:32 +0300 Received: from venturis (addr-213-139-174-93.suomi.net [213.139.174.93]) by eden.suomi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H4F006Q3YGPSK@eden.suomi.net> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:46:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from gilder by venturis with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 184Nhk-0002fr-00 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:45:56 +0300 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:45:52 +0300 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_M=E4=E4tt=E4?= Subject: [lang] Re: Missing Esoterica In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20021023154551.GA10233@venturis> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i References: <20021021021009.A18972@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: maatta.jussi@mail.suomi.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: maatta.jussi@mail.suomi.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, Oct 23, 2002 at 02:32:56PM +0200, Georg Kraml wrote: > Seems to me the fact the Wayback Machine and the Wayback Machine > alone still hosts those pages poses an ethical question. Is it OK > to link to the archived sites? Or would linking to them mean to > disrespect and flout author disposal, the assumption being that > if a page is gone its author probably *wants* it to be gone? I think that when you put something to the net, you accept that it ca= n be modified, stored and mirrored by someone else without ever telling you. So, in my opinion it is almost always completely acceptable to l= ink to archived sites. Everything in the net is public and freely usable. Jussi M=E4=E4tt=E4 gilder at iki.fi -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Oct 23 22:39:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184RLl-000Ox9-00; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:39:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:39:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184RKw-000Ox1-00; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:38:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:38:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184RKn-000Owv-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:38:29 +0300 Received: from irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.66]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g9NJcPc27836 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:38:26 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.2) id g9NJcOL10006 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:38:24 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:38:24 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Missing Esoterica Message-ID: <20021023213824.B9629@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20021021021009.A18972@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Georg Kraml on Wed, Oct 23, 2002 at 02:32:56PM +0200 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Georg Kraml wrote: > > On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > I searched around a bit using the 'Internet Archive Wayback Machine' > > Thanks for taking the trouble! No problem. There are legal issues, too, of course; if by mirroring the site, Internet Archive broke some law, it'd again be a bad idea to link to it. > Seems to me the fact the Wayback Machine and the Wayback Machine > alone still hosts those pages poses an ethical question. Is it OK > to link to the archived sites? Or would linking to them mean to Personally I'd distinguish between personal information and technical descriptions like software and software documentation. I'd not link to the first, but I think it would be ok to link the second. I'm not sure what the legal side looks like though; in our case I assume that the stuff was in the public domain anyway, but I didn't check. > Well, my apologies if I'm being excessively OT, but I'd be > interested in opinion pieces on this. Hmm, are you subscribed to chat@esoteric.sange.fi (directly or via misc@esoteric.sange.fi)? That'd be a better place for this discussion. Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Oct 25 00:18:54 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184pNE-00023o-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:18:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:18:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184pLr-00023d-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:17:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:17:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [213.196.1.176] (helo=asteroids.cybercomm.nl) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 184pLj-00023O-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:17:03 +0300 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 6354 invoked from network); 24 Oct 2002 21:16:21 -0000 Received: from 16.15.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.15.16]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 24 Oct 2002 21:16:21 -0000 Message-ID: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:12:44 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [_code] Number-to-LCD converter Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------050008030804010605000202" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050008030804010605000202 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This program was inspired by the BrainFuck program "numwarp" posted here some time ago, though it uses a different format. Since _code does not have native support for input, it is to be appended at the end of the program (if it was allowed to put it in a macro in the middle of the program, the code would be simpler, but that's too hard on the user), terminated by a !. Allowed characters are digits, dash, slash, dot, and colon. On Unix, you can do this easily with a line like ( cat lcd._c ; echo '23:45!' ) | _code The concept of this program (simultaniously working on strings that are to be printed seperately) is easily reusable in other programs, and is probably essential for anyone who is (like me) crazy enough to actually want to write a real program in _code. This appended input idea is also applicable to the original goal of _code (replacing geek code). The "program" is the macro set specifying the code which is being used, and the "input" is the actual code of a particular person. --------------050008030804010605000202 Content-Type: text/plain; name="lcd._c" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="lcd._c" [########################################################################## # This program demonstrates two important programming concepts in _code: # # 1. Working in several (in this case, three) strings simultaniously and # # outputting them seperately. Anyone capable of recognizing patterns # # should be able to change the program to handle any amount of lines. # # 2. Getting input from the user. Since _code does not natively support # # input, it is necessary to emulate it, by concatenating this program # # with the user's input externally and then feeding the result to the # # interpreter. Of course, this solution is somewhat of a kludge, and # # has a few problems. First, special characters like ( cannot appear # # in the input, because _code would try to interpret them. Secondly, # # _code has no way of redefining newlines or end-of-file, so the user # # has to specify these explicitly. In this program, the input should # # be terminated by a !. Thirdly, characters used for internal macros # # may not be used as input. In this program, the only such character # # is W, which fortunately does not have an LCD representation anyway. # # # # During development of this program, two interesting characteristics of # # the interpreter were discovered, neither of which are mentioned in the # # manual, neither of which is actually used, and which may or may not be # # intentional. The first is that escaped characters can also be used as # # macro names, for example, [\AB]A\A copies the unescaped A verbatim and # # replaces the escaped A with a B. The second is that parameters do not # # have to be placed directly after the lambda expression, for example, a # # monkey programming _code will probably be interested in a `@@@'ba(na). # ##########################################################################] [W`X`Y`Z`W`x`y`zW(X(`X`xxX'')(x))(Y(`Y`yyY'')(y))(Z(`Z`zzZ'')(z))'''''''] [0(W)( _ )(| |)(|_|)] [1(W)( )( |)( |)] [2(W)( _ )( _|)(|_ )] [3(W)( _ )( _|)( _|)] [4(W)( )(|_|)( |)] [5(W)( _ )(|_ )( _|)] [6(W)( _ )(|_ )(|_|)] [7(W)( _ )( |)( |)] [8(W)( _ )(|_|)(|_|)] [9(W)( _ )(|_|)( _|)] [-(W)( )( _ )( )] [/(W)( )( _|)(| )] [.(W)( )( )( \. )] [:(W)( )( \. )( \. )] [$(W)( G )( P )( L )] [!(`XX()()`YY()()`ZZ()()''')(\n)(\n)(\n)] W(`X`xxX'')(`Y`yyY'')(`Z`zzZ'') --------------050008030804010605000202-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Oct 25 00:18:54 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184pNE-00023r-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:18:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:18:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184pLl-00023W-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:17:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:16:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [213.196.1.176] (helo=asteroids.cybercomm.nl) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 184pLd-00023P-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:16:57 +0300 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 6454 invoked from network); 24 Oct 2002 21:16:25 -0000 Received: from 16.15.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.15.16]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 24 Oct 2002 21:16:25 -0000 Message-ID: <3DB85CAA.5020704@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:48:42 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: braifuck golf rules References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > > I agree with you. So the general rule would be: the , command may not be > > used to get more input than is described in the problem specification? > > The other two rules (20 and 23 in the ENSI version) are still good, > because there is little way to automatically enforce this one. Simple: the judging interpreter should be modified to not allow the program to read more input than the judges give it. After all, there's no point specifying input that the program isn't allowed to read. The only catch is that the judges have to specify whether EOF may be read or not. For example, it may be read in round zero (where the program gets arbitrary text as input), but not in round one (which always has a single byte of input), unless the number to be converted is 0. Also not in the hypothetical case of return-terminated input, though I doubt such will ever arise. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Oct 25 05:31:46 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184uG8-0002WW-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:31:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:31:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184uFY-0002WK-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:31:00 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:30:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd5mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184uFQ-0002WE-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:30:52 +0300 Received: from pd5mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr3so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.144]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H4I00KJ8MXEAT@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:29:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml9so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml9so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.7]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H4I00CB5MXEUY@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:29:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H4I003QMMXEPE@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:29:38 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:28:53 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] Number-to-LCD converter In-reply-to: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20021024122853.61229126.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:12:44 +0200 Milo van Handel wrote: > This program was inspired by the BrainFuck program "numwarp" posted here some > time ago, though it uses a different format. Since _code does not have native > support for input, it is to be appended at the end of the program (if it was > allowed to put it in a macro in the middle of the program, the code would be > simpler, but that's too hard on the user), terminated by a !. Allowed > characters are digits, dash, slash, dot, and colon. On Unix, you can do this > easily with a line like > ( cat lcd._c ; echo '23:45!' ) | _code > > The concept of this program (simultaniously working on strings that are to be > printed seperately) is easily reusable in other programs, and is probably > essential for anyone who is (like me) crazy enough to actually want to write a > real program in _code. Yay! Someone actually doing something in _code! _code is one of my favourite languages. I never wrote anything in it (except for the Partridge poem: [@On the ][$ day of Christmas my true love gave to me\n][*a partridge in a pear tree.\n\n][1and *][2two turtle doves\n1][3three french hens , 2][4four calling birds, 3][5five gold rings;\n4][6six geese a-layin g, 5][7seven swans a-swimming,\n6][8eight maids a-milking, 7][9nine l adies dancing, 8][+ten lords a-leaping,\n9][%eleven pipers piping, +] @first$*@second$2@third$3@fourth$4@fifth$5@sixth$6@seventh$7@eighth$8 @nineth$9@tenth$+@eleventh$%@twelfth$twelve drummers drumming, % ), but I wrote an interpreter for it, in C. It's quite a bit faster than the Perl one (also quite a lot uglier). Also, it (optionally) supports the non- standard thingie I proposed: The closing 's are automatically added at the closing square bracket. e.g. this line in your code: [W`X`Y`Z`W`x`y`zW(X(`X`xxX'')(x))(Y(`Y`yyY'')(y))(Z(`Z`zzZ'')(z))'''''''] becomes [W`X`Y`Z`W`x`y`zW(X(`X`xxX'')(x))(Y(`Y`yyY'')(y))(Z(`Z`zzZ'')(z))] I have not yet encountered a situation where this was bad. And it saves quite a few bytes. If anyone wants my interpreter, get it at http://lament.hypermart.net/_code.c Nice idea on how to implement input, btw. Even though it's a blasphemy :) __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Oct 25 08:35:47 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184x8C-0002jh-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:35:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:35:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184x7c-0002jV-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:35:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:34:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 184x7U-0002jP-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:34:52 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9P5Ymx20848 for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: cristofd@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20021024122853.61229126.ayzik@shaw.ca> References: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> <20021024122853.61229126.ayzik@shaw.ca> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:34:51 -0700 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] Number-to-LCD converter Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >Yay! Someone actually doing something in _code! Yay! Someone actually looked at numwarp! -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Oct 25 15:02:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1853Ab-0004AX-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:02:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:02:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18539x-0004AM-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:01:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:01:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18539p-0004AG-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:01:41 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id g9PBxXi6025265 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:59:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18536E-00044r-00 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:57:58 +0300 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:57:58 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Missing Esoterica Message-ID: <20021025115758.GN11892@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, Oct 20, 2002 at 04:39:50PM +0200, Georg Kraml wrote: > (1) Panu Kolliokoski's "brainfunk", > formerly living at http://sange.fi/~atehwa/iag/brainfunk.l Now available at: http://sange.fi/~atehwa/small-esoteric/brainfunk.l (sorry for the inconvenience, this is related to my rearranging of CVS repositories) > (3) Prfnoff's "BAK", > formerly http://www2.thecia.net/users/prfnoff/obslang/obslang.html (and "Fromage" or something like that), I noticed this same thing and asked for these on the list. I got a response from FvdP, and I'm going to put up some page for these apparently orphaned languages. Only I've been very busy lately, but it's clearly time to do this. Now available at http://esoteric.sange.fi/orphaned/ (Because I haven't heard anything of prfnoff, I'm not sure how she thinks about republishing this stuff.) > (4) Assurdo Technologies' Perl Intercal Compiler, > formerly http://www.assurdo.com/INTERCAL/ www.assurdo.com seems to be gone, but this marvellous extension to INTERCAL is available as a debian package from the main repository, as clc-intercal. If you have a debian machine, just apt-get install clc-intercal. Panu -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Oct 25 19:19:31 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1857Ao-0004zq-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:18:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:18:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18578n-0004z9-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:16:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:16:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18578e-0004z3-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:16:44 +0300 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id g9PGEai6026398 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:14:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18574U-00006E-00 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:12:26 +0300 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:12:06 +0300 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: FALSE to TI86 compiler Message-ID: <20021025161206.GC346@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <200210152022.ACB90608@express.cites.uiuc.edu> <200210140009.ACA95284@express.cites.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200210152022.ACB90608@express.cites.uiuc.edu> <200210140009.ACA95284@express.cites.uiuc.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, Oct 13, 2002 at 07:09:53PM -0500, amling@uiuc.edu wrote: > If anyone is interested in seeing the monster, I can e-mail > it to them. I'm interested. If the thing is not over a megabyte in size, please email it to the list; I think there are sufficiently many interested people to make it worthwhile. Then, on Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 03:22:13PM -0500, amling@uiuc.edu wrote: > (1) I modified an interpreter of false to support the S and K combinators(in a sort of strange way). > (2) I modified an interpreter of a subset of unlambda to support s, k, r, .x, i, v, and ^x/$x as were used in the > unlambda tutorial(Example: `^x`$x$x^x``.*$x$x would run same as ```sii``s``s`k.*ii) > If anyone is interested in either I can e-mail them. If this is a separate distribution, I'm interested in that also. It would also be interesting to hear how the False interpreter supports the combinators. (Currently I think the big shortcoming of False is lack of nested scopes, and this sounds like a good candidate for alleviating that. The language joy takes another track, making manipulation of functions as easy as possible.) Panu -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Oct 25 20:56:50 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1858hI-000595-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:56:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:56:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1858go-00058y-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:56:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:55:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from fort-point-station.mit.edu ([18.7.7.76]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1858gf-00058s-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:55:57 +0300 Received: from grand-central-station.mit.edu (GRAND-CENTRAL-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.21.82]) by fort-point-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA25503 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:55:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from manawatu-mail-centre.mit.edu (MANAWATU-MAIL-CENTRE.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.71]) by grand-central-station.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA08073 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:53:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [18.83.6.51] (GREEN-THREE-O-SIX.MIT.EDU [18.83.6.51]) by manawatu-mail-centre.mit.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA03392 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:50:17 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> References: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:50:28 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: David Greenspan Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] Number-to-LCD converter Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@MIT.EDU Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I've never heard of _code. Could someone give me a link? -- David -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Oct 25 21:37:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1859Ky-0005FD-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:37:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:37:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1859Kc-0005F6-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:37:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:37:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1859KT-0005F0-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:37:06 +0300 Received: from lennie (ctb53-02-p142.wc.saix.net [155.239.150.142]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g9PIZlqV006491 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:36:31 +0200 (SAT) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:59:18 +0200 From: "D De Villiers (Home)" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <121214155.20021025195918@lando.co.za> To: Milo van Handel Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] Number-to-LCD converter In-Reply-To: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> References: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello Milo, This sounds like something similar to my e (Exclamation) language: www.lando.co.za/Lennie/esolang/e/index.htm You can create some nice ASCII art. Im planning to make some improvements over time (more on site). BTW, Can you please compile the converter for me? For MS Windows 2000. I dont have a C compiler. MvH> This program was inspired by the BrainFuck program "numwarp" posted here some MvH> time ago, though it uses a different format. Since _code does not have native MvH> support for input, it is to be appended at the end of the program (if it was MvH> allowed to put it in a macro in the middle of the program, the code would be MvH> simpler, but that's too hard on the user), terminated by a !. Allowed MvH> characters are digits, dash, slash, dot, and colon. On Unix, you can do this MvH> easily with a line like MvH> ( cat lcd._c ; echo '23:45!' ) | _code MvH> The concept of this program (simultaniously working on strings that are to be MvH> printed seperately) is easily reusable in other programs, and is probably MvH> essential for anyone who is (like me) crazy enough to actually want to write a MvH> real program in _code. MvH> This appended input idea is also applicable to the original goal of _code MvH> (replacing geek code). The "program" is the macro set specifying the code which MvH> is being used, and the "input" is the actual code of a particular person. Kind Regards, Lennie De Villiers 25 Oct 2002 Email: ddevilliers@lando.co.za (Home) lennie@akura.co.za (Work) -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Oct 26 01:23:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 185CrT-0005Wu-00; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:23:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:23:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 185Cqh-0005Wg-00; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:22:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:22:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from arkanoid.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.177] helo=asteroids.cybercomm.nl) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 185CqZ-0005WT-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:22:27 +0300 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 7433 invoked from network); 25 Oct 2002 22:21:56 -0000 Received: from 64.16.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.16.64]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 25 Oct 2002 22:21:56 -0000 Message-ID: <3DB9C29D.4020101@dds.nl> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:15:57 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] Number-to-LCD converter References: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> <121214155.20021025195918@lando.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc D De Villiers (Home) wrote: > This sounds like something similar to my e (Exclamation) language: > www.lando.co.za/Lennie/esolang/e/index.htm You can create some nice > ASCII art. Im planning to make some improvements over time (more on > site). I don't quite see the connection. > BTW, Can you please compile the converter for me? For MS Windows 2000. I have Windows only for playing a few games, and that's Windows 95 without anything looking remotely like a compiler. Microsoft is evil. Oops, now where did I leave my asbestos outfit? > I dont have a C compiler. It's not C. It's written in a language called _code, which has been posted to the list a while ago. The original interpreter was written in Perl. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Oct 26 01:23:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 185CrT-0005Wr-00; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:23:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:23:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 185Cqc-0005WZ-00; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:22:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:22:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from arkanoid.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.177] helo=asteroids.cybercomm.nl) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 185CqT-0005WS-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:22:21 +0300 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 7308 invoked from network); 25 Oct 2002 22:21:49 -0000 Received: from 64.16.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.16.64]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 25 Oct 2002 22:21:49 -0000 Message-ID: <3DB9C1C5.4040102@dds.nl> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:12:21 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] Number-to-LCD converter References: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> <20021024122853.61229126.ayzik@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > Also, it (optionally) supports the non- > standard thingie I proposed: The closing 's are automatically added at the > closing square bracket. > > e.g. this line in your code: > > [W`X`Y`Z`W`x`y`zW(X(`X`xxX'')(x))(Y(`Y`yyY'')(y))(Z(`Z`zzZ'')(z))'''''''] > > becomes > > [W`X`Y`Z`W`x`y`zW(X(`X`xxX'')(x))(Y(`Y`yyY'')(y))(Z(`Z`zzZ'')(z))] > > I have not yet encountered a situation where this was bad. And it saves > quite a few bytes. It makes it easier to make mistakes. What if I meant [W`X`Y`Z`W`x`y`zW(X(`X`xxX'')(x))(Y(`Y`yyY'')(y))'(Z(`Z`zzZ'')(z))''''''] ? Also, theoretically, it could be possible for someone to want to make a macro which really contains only the open quote. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Oct 26 03:06:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 185ETW-0005lS-00; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:06:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:06:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 185ETA-0005lL-00; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:06:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:06:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd3mo1so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 185ET1-0005lF-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:06:15 +0300 Received: from pd3mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.177]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H4K001PPAXJLU@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:05:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml2so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml2so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.146]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H4K003K1AXJJG@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:05:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H4K00KKBAXICN@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:05:42 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:05:20 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] Number-to-LCD converter In-reply-to: <3DB9C1C5.4040102@dds.nl> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20021025100520.37b7ac20.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> <20021024122853.61229126.ayzik@shaw.ca> <3DB9C1C5.4040102@dds.nl> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:12:21 +0200 Milo van Handel wrote: > Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > > > Also, it (optionally) supports the non- > > standard thingie I proposed: The closing 's are automatically added at the > > closing square bracket. > > > > e.g. this line in your code: > > > > [W`X`Y`Z`W`x`y`zW(X(`X`xxX'')(x))(Y(`Y`yyY'')(y))(Z(`Z`zzZ'')(z))'''''''] > > > > becomes > > > > [W`X`Y`Z`W`x`y`zW(X(`X`xxX'')(x))(Y(`Y`yyY'')(y))(Z(`Z`zzZ'')(z))] > > > > I have not yet encountered a situation where this was bad. And it saves > > quite a few bytes. > > It makes it easier to make mistakes. What if I meant > > [W`X`Y`Z`W`x`y`zW(X(`X`xxX'')(x))(Y(`Y`yyY'')(y))'(Z(`Z`zzZ'')(z))''''''] > > ? Also, theoretically, it could be possible for someone to want to make a macro > which really contains only the open quote. This is why my interpreter only supports it optionally. But as I said, I have never encountered a case where it would be bad. Also, I believe the perl interpreter would die with something like [x`] anyway. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Oct 27 03:35:03 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 185bNv-00086S-00; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 03:34:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 27 Oct 2002 03:34:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 185bLX-00086L-00; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 03:32:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 27 Oct 2002 03:31:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from asteroids.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.176]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 185bLO-00086F-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 03:31:54 +0300 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 14707 invoked from network); 27 Oct 2002 00:31:22 -0000 Received: from 122.16.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.16.122]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 27 Oct 2002 00:31:22 -0000 Message-ID: <3DBB415C.9090105@dds.nl> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 02:29:00 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] Number-to-LCD converter References: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> <20021024122853.61229126.ayzik@shaw.ca> <3DB9C1C5.4040102@dds.nl> <20021025100520.37b7ac20.ayzik@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > > Also, theoretically, it could be possible for someone to want to make a macro > > which really contains only the open quote. > > This is why my interpreter only supports it optionally. But as I said, I have > never encountered a case where it would be bad. Also, I believe the perl > interpreter would die with something like [x`] anyway. The documentation is unclear on whether this should be allowed, but the reference implementation, given [A`x] Axx'(y) produces yy The same reference implementation also supports unbalanced (s in macros, but, strangely enough, not 's or )s. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Oct 28 10:28:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1865F8-000AM7-00; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:27:26 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:27:19 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1865Bt-000ALR-00; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:24:05 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:23:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1865Bk-000ALH-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:23:56 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id g9S8Lii6013869 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:21:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 186580-0000oO-00 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:20:04 +0200 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:20:04 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] Number-to-LCD converter Message-ID: <20021028082004.GA3107@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> <20021024122853.61229126.ayzik@shaw.ca> <3DB9C1C5.4040102@dds.nl> <20021025100520.37b7ac20.ayzik@shaw.ca> <3DBB415C.9090105@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DBB415C.9090105@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, Oct 27, 2002 at 02:29:00AM +0100, Milo van Handel wrote: > >never encountered a case where it would be bad. Also, I believe the perl > >interpreter would die with something like [x`] anyway. > The documentation is unclear on whether this should be allowed, but the > reference implementation, given > [A`x] > Axx'(y) > produces > yy A similar "feature" in m4 allows for invoking macros without the actual macro syntax: if I define(`open_foo', `foo(') and define(`close', `)'), then I can call foo as open_foo arguments close. At least in m4, this is a nice feature as it allows for all kinds of tweaks... Of course, in the case of _code, defining macros with unbalanced quotes should be allowed symmetrically... :) Panu -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Oct 28 10:55:44 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1865gQ-000AYt-00; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:55:38 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:55:32 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1865g2-000AYj-00; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:55:14 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:55:06 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1865ft-000AYZ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:55:05 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id g9S8qri6027321 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:52:53 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1865c9-0000p4-00 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:51:13 +0200 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:51:13 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: braifuck golf rules Message-ID: <20021028085113.GB3107@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <3DB85CAA.5020704@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DB85CAA.5020704@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 10:48:42PM +0200, Milo van Handel wrote: > Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > >The other two rules (20 and 23 in the ENSI version) are still good, > >because there is little way to automatically enforce this one. > Simple: the judging interpreter should be modified to not allow the program > to read more input than the judges give it. After all, there's no point > specifying input that the program isn't allowed to read. The only catch is > that the judges have to specify whether EOF may be read or not. For > example, it may be read in round zero (where the program gets arbitrary > text as input), but not in round one (which always has a single byte of > input), unless the > number to be converted is 0. Also not in the hypothetical case of > return-terminated input, though I doubt such will ever arise. Yes. The input will have to be emulated or there will have to be some specific code meaning "this byte was never supposed to be read, so disqualify the program". Not very hard to implement, but I wonder whether the judging implementation allows for this. Panu -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Oct 28 11:50:25 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1866XK-000ArK-00; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:50:18 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:50:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1866Wn-000Aqp-00; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:49:45 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:49:37 +0200 (EET) Received: from vador.skynet.be ([195.238.3.236]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1866We-000Aqi-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:49:37 +0200 Received: from decis.be (93.208-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be [194.78.208.93]) by vador.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id g9S9nYm08882 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:49:34 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Received: from decis.be ([192.168.0.20]) by decis.be ([194.78.208.93]) with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v6.0.5.R) for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:47:39 +0100 Message-ID: <3DBD09C0.E19B6D1F@decis.be> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:56:16 +0100 From: Frederic van der Plancke Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] Number-to-LCD converter References: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> <121214155.20021025195918@lando.co.za> <3DB9C29D.4020101@dds.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by vador.skynet.be id g9S9nYm08882 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Milo van Handel wrote: [...] > I have Windows only for playing a few games, and that's Windows 95 with= out > anything looking remotely like a compiler. Microsoft is evil. >=20 > Oops, now where did I leave my asbestos outfit? Well, as long as you don't claim that it's not an OS, and that my compute= r is some kind of OS-less toaster device... I don't feel to bad... W95 is= an evil choice for program development in unsafe languages like C/C++ an= yway, particularly if the IDE itself (C++ Builder 1 at home) is bugged ! Fr=E9d=E9ric vdP -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Oct 29 00:01:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186HwU-000CyP-00; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:01:02 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:00:56 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186Hvt-000CyE-00; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:00:25 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:00:17 +0200 (EET) Received: from express.cites.uiuc.edu ([128.174.5.156] ident=mirapoint) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186Hvl-000Cy8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:00:17 +0200 Received: from express.cites.uiuc.edu (localhost.cites.uiuc.edu [127.0.0.1]) by express.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.0-GA) with ESMTP id ACH87751; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:00:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200210282200.ACH87751@express.cites.uiuc.edu> Received: from 130.126.217.190 by express.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.0-GA) with HTTPS/1.1; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:00:13 -0600 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:00:13 -0600 From: amling@uiuc.edu Subject: [lang] Re: FALSE to TI86 compiler To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Mailer: Webmail Mirapoint Direct 3.2.0-GA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="-----f8f54c02794fcf58aa321b41965a73d6" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amling@uiuc.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amling@uiuc.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc -------f8f54c02794fcf58aa321b41965a73d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, all told everything I've mentioned doesn't come to a meg. The entire Z80 assembler comes to only 30k. I'll send it them all individually though so those interested in only one don't have to download it all. Here is the false interpreter which supports output of TI86 targetted assembly. This is the main branch of my false "interpreter" development. Those who don't want the TI86 support can remove the #define line that adds it. This "interpreter" also supports "compiling" to C. 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XSH/1ktr5UarvVi+aneedx4t4puFg3rer+fhlmC4716bH6j6f+iNh97Z3er/VlXQ/8om1X+7 /9+dwD3r/xBqpzIn1/lq+8Pe6+2PMS4nRvPGeSEOEfQIIIJueF/DCXncGtbzC+VGp7XYeYTO yblMI99DpF34MRtA0DkjDh4Qf2BeDc5UrTau0Hm1CoE0T57iv6/3tv/+88NlrtP66cYdCxYs WLBgwYIFCxYsWLBgwYIFCxYsWLBgwYIFCxYsWLBgwYIFC/OB/wCn5aVeAPAAAA== -------f8f54c02794fcf58aa321b41965a73d6-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Oct 29 00:05:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186I0P-000D1y-00; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:05:05 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:04:59 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186I0H-000D1i-00; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:04:57 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:04:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from express.cites.uiuc.edu ([128.174.5.156] ident=mirapoint) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186I09-000D1c-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:04:49 +0200 Received: from express.cites.uiuc.edu (localhost.cites.uiuc.edu [127.0.0.1]) by express.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.0-GA) with ESMTP id ACH88119; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:04:47 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200210282204.ACH88119@express.cites.uiuc.edu> Received: from 130.126.217.190 by express.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.0-GA) with HTTPS/1.1; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:04:47 -0600 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:04:47 -0600 From: amling@uiuc.edu Subject: [lang] Re: FALSE to TI86 compiler To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Mailer: Webmail Mirapoint Direct 3.2.0-GA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="-----2b740da6c9f287514dda5bee70cfc465" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amling@uiuc.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amling@uiuc.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc -------2b740da6c9f287514dda5bee70cfc465 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is the ^x/$x doohickey. Included are a couple examples so you can get an idea what the syntax is and what it does. Having learned all I known about functional languages from the unlambda manual(seriously), the syntax may be a little nonstandard(I think conventionally one uses a lambda in place of the carrot and does not put a dollar sign before variable uses?). On a side note, I decided crap like ^x`$xk^x`k$x shouldn't be done, but do not enforce that. ^x`$xk^x`k$x is handled like ^x`$xk^y`k$y. That is, the inner ^x masks the inner $x. In retrospect, I hope lambda calculus interpreter is a reasonable name for this project... -------2b740da6c9f287514dda5bee70cfc465 Content-Type: application/x-tgz; name="lclc-0.01.tar.gz" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="lclc-0.01.tar.gz" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 H4sICHthvT0AA2xjbGMtMC4wMS50YXIA7DxtcFTXdU9iBcuzbASRXQIZci0QWmkksbuSIJYM AcQKY2PYIos6ASxWu2/ZRavd7e5bPmIrwaM4IMtMlYwztWuPx8TU06bt1NOxPUwnzcgfDXab SZ2PH2k803Ebp9m17JYPWShYZnvOvfd97tsPYclOqB68fe/ce+75uufce959Vy/ij/ibnM1O 1zphzg6ns9W5oa0Nrk7nhvXGKz8ERNjgXu9sa4Fyl9vd4hJI29yJpB2ppOxLECL0+wYi4eih vHjF6v9Aj4ja/8mEf458YEb9j3iuFqfbPd//n8Zh7P8BXzja7J9tHk6X07m+tTVP/7e6W9dr /d/a4gb8Vpdzg0Ccsy2I1fH/vP9Xh6P+SCogkTuTciAcaw5tErUiKZGImooAKxLuM5clwDLG skOSHIvLWCauDkjBcFQinvu9vVv3bNnVeRdxGgq7dhE8XIbCnVvu3bptC3EbCvdu2YOYLeZC NxS2iqJ8PC5BBQGBUn6Z9EKt+KAIdeGoTLCyA4FUNByL4g2tgkNBv2/L9t6+hC/qD/EKBUGH AyRJQ1yKdOStSihVg4QR67BgE4zmZwHmaIgHNSrBqBWFiG+gL+DrlY7Fcyn5Q+DS/vwiarQZ 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express.cites.uiuc.edu ([128.174.5.156] ident=mirapoint) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186IAq-000D6s-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:15:52 +0200 Received: from express.cites.uiuc.edu (localhost.cites.uiuc.edu [127.0.0.1]) by express.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.0-GA) with ESMTP id ACH88761; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:15:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200210282215.ACH88761@express.cites.uiuc.edu> Received: from 130.126.217.190 by express.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.0-GA) with HTTPS/1.1; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:15:50 -0600 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:15:50 -0600 From: amling@uiuc.edu Subject: [lang] Re: FALSE to TI86 compiler To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Mailer: Webmail Mirapoint Direct 3.2.0-GA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="-----a92069b5db244e906b44d03dc27178f3" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amling@uiuc.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amling@uiuc.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc -------a92069b5db244e906b44d03dc27178f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is the "uberfalse" interpreter. This was branched off of the main false "interpreter". For (I feel) obvious reasons it does not support compiling to C(imagine an unlambda to C compiler...). The way this works is unlambda functions are now considered a type as well as variables, variable addresses, and normal false functions. Unlambda functions work sort of as expected. K and S push themselves onto the stack. When K is executed with !, it pops one item and pushes a function of type K1 with data of X. When a K1 is executed it drops the top element on the stack and pushed on it's own data. Similarly, S grabs datum(X) and pushes an S1 and S1 grabs another datum(Y) and pushes S2. S2 pops a third datum(Z), then pushes Z and executes X, pops one datum(`XZ), pushes Z and executes Y, pop one datum(`YZ), then pushes `YZ and executes `XZ. The idea is when you ```sXYZ, each application sees the same stack below. If you did not understand that, the odds are very good that I'm a moron. Go read the source code. Included in the tarball in the xlate directory is a rudimentary translator from a subset of unlambda(`, s, and k only) to uberfalse used primarily for testing. -------a92069b5db244e906b44d03dc27178f3 Content-Type: application/x-tgz; name="uberfalse-0.01.tar.gz" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="uberfalse-0.01.tar.gz" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 H4sICONhvT0AA3ViZXJmYWxzZS0wLjAxLnRhcgDsPW1b27iy/Xr8K5QUmhAC2CHAObhlt6Vl l5su3WdD997nSbLUcRTwEuys7aRl2/Svnr/Rj3ck2bIk23lps+npnqgFbGk0Gr2NZkYjedTF ft8aBHhH39WNvQd/RdD1un50cAB/df3oUP4bhQcE4Kh2qB8eGQ90Y78GyejgL6FGCaMgtHyE HtxadwPHvc6Fm5X+jYaR3P+Bby9/DCzS/0cGPBt1vX647v9VhIz+7+Hu6HrXXl4ZuqHrh/V6 Xv8b9cNaMv/r8Gwc7Ov1B0hfHgn54b+8/x86rj0Y9TB6HIQ9x9u9OdF4VPHOctzdm6KmjT2n h56TcVFuXv50+fK8eYkqwypy3BA5PTfc0t5rCLFXkz71y4XhFnmC4ONw5Ls0PnjrhPZNebhz Et4PMQV4H0HZVoARwX518eyX4ygSQt/zyw56gnQTOegxLc5E29vOVgICYehD4f1yERW3TC0V u9lru8UqgmJ7Vmjtul1fhOr62LoV3lMENS+XTVC7uBm0ixJRIX4XLkTV2cWSiWoBPWI86/CY 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with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Oct 29 00:25:02 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186IJg-000DBK-00; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:25:00 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:24:54 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186IJX-000DBD-00; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:24:51 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:24:43 +0200 (EET) Received: from express.cites.uiuc.edu ([128.174.5.156] ident=mirapoint) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186IJO-000DB7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:24:43 +0200 Received: from express.cites.uiuc.edu (localhost.cites.uiuc.edu [127.0.0.1]) by express.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.0-GA) with ESMTP id ACH89255; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:24:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200210282224.ACH89255@express.cites.uiuc.edu> Received: from 130.126.217.190 by express.cites.uiuc.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.0-GA) with HTTPS/1.1; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:24:41 -0600 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:24:41 -0600 From: amling@uiuc.edu Subject: [lang] Re: FALSE to TI86 compiler To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-Mailer: Webmail Mirapoint Direct 3.2.0-GA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="-----22affb7ecaa3e9d82a9b0154453e58f7" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amling@uiuc.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amling@uiuc.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc -------22affb7ecaa3e9d82a9b0154453e58f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And lastly, here are my crappy TI86 development tools. There are actually four programs and the one giant header file here. The files "notes" should help describe how the monster works. In the directory build is a slight modification of the script I use to automate building from assembly to 86p(TiLP recognizable file). In the mk86p folder is the "linker" I wrote to convert Z80 object code to an 86p file which involves adding a bunch of header crap and calculating a checksum. In the folder kz80as is the [unbelievably crappy] assemble I wrote. It supports all Z80 opcodes that I could find documentation on. It has been very sparsly tested so if something breaks it is probably the best first place to look. It doesn't handle equates very elegantly(competently in any way shape or form). The folder kpp contains the last tool in this ridiculous toolchain. kpp is a preprocesor I wrote. So far it handles...unconditional inclusion. Actually it supports comments and running commands in the shell, but I have never really seen these used(I wrote this a while back for kicks and I don't recall why I'm using it for including all.inc). The bottom line is if you can, by any means, use TASM then do so and modify the false "interpreter" to use TASM directives. 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-------22affb7ecaa3e9d82a9b0154453e58f7-- -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Oct 30 00:08:44 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186eX7-000Go7-00; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:08:21 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:08:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186eW8-000Gnw-00; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:07:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:07:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from asteroids.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.176]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 186eW0-000Gnj-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:07:12 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 13404 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2002 22:06:41 -0000 Received: from 204.16.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.16.204]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Oct 2002 22:06:41 -0000 Message-ID: <3DBF0573.5080402@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:02:27 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [_code] Number-to-LCD converter References: <3DB8543C.60503@dds.nl> <121214155.20021025195918@lando.co.za> <3DB9C29D.4020101@dds.nl> <3DBD09C0.E19B6D1F@decis.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Frederic van der Plancke wrote: > Milo van Handel wrote: > [...] > >>I have Windows only for playing a few games, and that's Windows 95 without >>anything looking remotely like a compiler. Microsoft is evil. >> >>Oops, now where did I leave my asbestos outfit? >> > > > > Well, as long as you don't claim that it's not an OS, and that my computer is some kind of OS-less toaster device... I don't feel to bad... W95 is an evil choice for program development in unsafe languages like C/C++ anyway, particularly if the IDE itself (C++ Builder 1 at home) is bugged ! Windows is not an OS and your computer is slightly less useful than a toaster is when you're out of bread! Well, actually, Windows does operate, much like a doctor does - by cutting you open. Only it crashes before it can close you again. As for the Borland thingie: XEmacs, gcc, gdb. Does the job fine. What's the point of those useless *integrated* development environments? Now that'll get the GNU Emacs, vi, pico, and egcs fans joining the flamewar too... -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Oct 30 00:08:45 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186eX7-000Go9-00; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:08:21 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:08:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186eW3-000Gnp-00; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:07:16 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:07:08 +0200 (EET) Received: from asteroids.cybercomm.nl ([213.196.1.176]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 186eVv-000Gni-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:07:08 +0200 Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 13296 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2002 22:06:35 -0000 Received: from 204.16.dialup.cybercomm.nl (HELO dds.nl) ([213.196.16.204]) (envelope-sender ) by dds.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Oct 2002 22:06:35 -0000 Message-ID: <3DBF0426.8090705@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:56:54 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i586; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: braifuck golf rules References: <3DB85CAA.5020704@dds.nl> <20021028085113.GB3107@ling.helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu Kalliokoski wrote: > On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 10:48:42PM +0200, Milo van Handel wrote: > >>Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: >> >>>The other two rules (20 and 23 in the ENSI version) are still good, >>>because there is little way to automatically enforce this one. >>> >>Simple: the judging interpreter should be modified to not allow the program >>to read more input than the judges give it. After all, there's no point >>specifying input that the program isn't allowed to read. The only catch is >>that the judges have to specify whether EOF may be read or not. For >>example, it may be read in round zero (where the program gets arbitrary >>text as input), but not in round one (which always has a single byte of >>input), unless the >>number to be converted is 0. Also not in the hypothetical case of >>return-terminated input, though I doubt such will ever arise. > > Yes. The input will have to be emulated or there will have to be > some specific code meaning "this byte was never supposed to be read, > so disqualify the program". Not very hard to implement, but I wonder > whether the judging implementation allows for this. "Never supposed to be read"? Why give it a byte that it's not allowed to read? Just drop it from the input of the interpreter. For example, say that a certain round specifies an input which consists of one lines terminated by (contrary to the specification, but I can't think of a better example right now) a DOS/Windows-style newline of carriage return followed by line feed. Once the carrieage return is read, the line feed will always follow, so the program is not allowed to read it. So there's no need to supply it to the interpreter, either. For example, if the input line reads "Hello world!", then the interpreter's input would be "Hellow world!", without a line feed, and with EOF-zero turned off. The only implementation trouble would be to add a command-line switch to choose this EOF-zero setting, and that really can't be very hard, whatever the implementation is. -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Oct 30 12:01:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186pek-000I20-00; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:00:58 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:00:51 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186pcG-000I1D-00; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:58:24 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:58:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186pc5-000I17-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:58:13 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id g9U7Ili6016766 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:18:51 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 186n69-0003Eb-00 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:17:05 +0200 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:17:05 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [brainfuck golf] Re: braifuck golf rules Message-ID: <20021030071705.GB11702@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <3DB85CAA.5020704@dds.nl> <20021028085113.GB3107@ling.helsinki.fi> <3DBF0426.8090705@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DBF0426.8090705@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, Oct 29, 2002 at 10:56:54PM +0100, Milo van Handel wrote: > >>that the judges have to specify whether EOF may be read or not. For > >>example, it may be read in round zero (where the program gets arbitrary > >>text as input), but not in round one (which always has a single byte of > >>input), unless the > >>number to be converted is 0. Also not in the hypothetical case of > >>return-terminated input, though I doubt such will ever arise. > >Yes. The input will have to be emulated or there will have to be > >some specific code meaning "this byte was never supposed to be read, > >so disqualify the program". Not very hard to implement, but I wonder > >whether the judging implementation allows for this. > "Never supposed to be read"? Why give it a byte that it's not allowed to > read? Just drop it from the input of the interpreter. What I meant was quite technical: simply that if the interpreter is driven as a proper subprocess, there should be some value signifying "end of input", and that value cannot be EOF, because EOF is sometimes valid input. Your solution also works, I just think it's nicer to put EOF into the input if it's valid input instead of having a separate "may-read-eof/may-not-read-eof" flag or command line switch. Never mind. The proper way to do this is executing the code in an emulated environment, anyway. (At least IMO.) Panu -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Oct 30 16:08:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186tVk-000Iwj-00; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:07:56 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:07:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186tUm-000Iw5-00; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:06:56 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:06:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi ([128.214.205.24]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 186tUe-000Ivz-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:06:48 +0200 Received: from xandru.it.helsinki.fi (mail@xandru.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.38.174]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.12.2/8.12.2-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id g9UE47i6010743 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:04:07 +0200 (EET) Received: from pkalliok by xandru.it.helsinki.fi with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 186tQO-0003N0-00 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:02:24 +0200 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:02:24 +0200 From: Panu Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: FALSE to TI86 compiler Message-ID: <20021030140224.GK12455@ling.helsinki.fi> Mail-Followup-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi References: <200210282215.ACH88761@express.cites.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200210282215.ACH88761@express.cites.uiuc.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: Panu Kalliokoski X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, Oct 28, 2002 at 04:15:50PM -0600, amling@uiuc.edu wrote: > Here is the "uberfalse" interpreter. This was branched off of the main > false "interpreter". For (I feel) obvious reasons it does not support > compiling to C(imagine an unlambda to C compiler...). The way this works Well, the only things that make unlambda hard to compile into C are the c and d builtins, which are not supported here, are they? But I won't blame you, it seems like a nice piece of work anyway... :) [... MO of S and K ...] > Y, pop one datum(`YZ), then pushes `YZ and executes `XZ. The idea is > when you ```sXYZ, each application sees the same stack below. If you Good idea, though using the stack below easily breaks referential transparency... but we're not after that, are we? Anyway, this _does_ provide a way for what I've been interested in: partial application. Say I've got a binary function (takes two arguments), and I want a unary function that does the same as the binary function with first argument bound to (say) 3. The obvious way to do this would be to form a new function that pushes 3 and then executes the old binary function. However this requires string manipulation in old unlambda, very messy stuff. If we have the binary function on the top of the stack, we can use the combinators to get the desired unary function thus: K! {form constant function for our binary function f} [3\] {a function to push 3 under} \ {const f on top, pushing of 3 second} S!! This still sucks, because there is no standard way to get, for a number, a function to push that number. Ditto for strings... but it's rather cool anyway. Panu -- To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: unsubscribe lang [if you receive these messages via lang] unsubscribe misc [if you receive these messages via misc]