From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 01 00:17:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Om3x-000JRt-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 00:16:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 00:16:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Om3P-000JRZ-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 00:16:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 00:16:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rhea.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.178]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Om3G-000JRO-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 00:16:10 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-210-174.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.210.174]) by rhea.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E173539AAC for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:15:43 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@rhea.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D1F8185.ED036856@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 00:09:09 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Daniel wrote: > >>> the problem is that i don't think 9 character bf prog can output anything > >>> visible. > >> > >> How about audible? Nobody addressed that question. > >> +++++++. > > > > +[.+] is visible. > > I know. I was making a little joke. > (--. is also visible, as I later discovered. As is -. for that matter.) It depends on whether you use 7-bit ASCII or an 8-bit extension thereof. In ASCII, --. and -. are both invisible. > >> You could even include , if you had data to > >> feed it. > > > > The keyboard, obviously. What do you mean "if"? > > That would take a little bit more work to do via the web, which I assume is > why he didn't include the , . I was suggesting routing data to the program > from a fixed file as a compromise measure. One of those edit boxes (sorry, I don't know enough HTML to say more)? And why through the web? I can download my own copy, and then I do have a keyboard. Oh yeah, and if you allow input, then ,. might also produce visible output. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 01 09:12:16 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17OuPo-000LM9-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 09:12:00 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 09:11:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17OuPM-000LM2-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 09:11:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 09:11:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from dark.darkweb.com ([216.163.74.170]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17OuPC-000LLv-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 09:11:22 +0300 Received: from localhost (benrg@localhost) by dark.darkweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19601 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:11:10 -0700 Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:11:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Ben Rudiak-Gould To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > I'm a little bit surprised that nobody yet suggested this general > solution: to strip the most significant 1-bit and treat the rest of the > number as the source of the program. > > (for example, octal encoding on brainfuck by 0->+, 1->-, etc will produce > the above program from binary 1000000000000000000000110.) Here's a generalization of that: pick an enumeration of the syntactically valid programs in your target language and use that as your mapping function. Panu's suggestion can be thought of as a particularly elegant enumeration of the language of finite-length binary strings; however, as that is not the target language here, an additional translation step is required afterwards. If we instead enumerate programs in the target language directly, then we can get a nice bijection which also avoids the other problems with the translation step (namely, the possibility of unbalanced brackets and the lack of an obvious translation for bit strings of length not a multiple of three). Programmatically enumerating valid BF programs is not too hard (though it is non-trivial, because of the balanced-bracket requirement). I implemented one possible enumeration in Haskell (see below for code). Examples: bfProgramNumber 0 -> "" bfProgramNumber 1 -> "+" bfProgramNumber 100 -> "-<-" bfProgramNumber 901263567019234823958162349816720395816273095481236540192 -> "+<->><,<->[+--][.]-[.-.,[[++]]+,.+][++<.,>[[+<>-][+[.].+-]]>],.-.." The last one takes a few seconds to generate when running under Hugs. This is also a pretty nice Goedel numbering. Maybe I should implement the inverse function. As a side note, the number of valid BF programs of length 0,1,2,3,... is 1,6,37,234,1514,9996,..., which actually appears in the On-Line Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences (#A025230), in a completely different guise. As listed in the Encyclopedia it has an additional leading term of 3. I guess that means that there are 3 valid BF programs of length -1, but I have no idea what they are. -- Ben ____________________________ cut here ____________________________ type BfProgram = String bfProgramNumber :: Integer -> BfProgram bfProgramNumber = binDex bfPrograms bfOps = "+-><,." numBfOps = fromInt (length bfOps) -- The simplest implementation of bfProgramNumber would be a list or -- array lookup. However, that takes (almost) forever when the index -- is huge. So instead I store the possible programs in recursively -- nested bins, each tagged with the number of programs it contains. -- This requires separate functions to calculate the tag numbers -- combinatorially (otherwise it would be no faster than the direct -- lookup). type BinSet a b = [(a,a->b)] binDex :: (Ord a, Num a) => BinSet a b -> a -> b binDex ((count,func):xs) n = if n < count then func n else binDex xs (n-count) bfPrograms :: BinSet Integer BfProgram bfPrograms = [(numBfProgramsOfLength len, binDex (bfProgramsOfLength len)) | len <- [0..]] -- numBfPrograms = infinity -- infinity :: Integer -- infinity = infinity + 1 bfProgramsOfLength len = if len == 0 then [(1, \n -> "")] else (prependAtom bfOps (numBfProgramsOfLength (len-1)) (bfProgramsOfLength (len-1))) ++ [prependLeadingLoopOfLength len loopLen numBfProgramsOfLength bfProgramsOfLength | loopLen <- [2..len]] -- #A025230 in The On-Line Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences numBfProgramsOfLength len = sum (map numBfProgramsWithNLoops [0..maxLoops]) where maxLoops = len `quot` 2 numBfProgramsWithNLoops n = (len `choose` numAtoms) * (numBfOps ^ numAtoms) * (bracketPairings n) where numAtoms = len - n * 2 prependAtom atoms subSize subBins = map (\op -> (subSize, (op:) . binDex subBins)) atoms prependLeadingLoopOfLength len loopLen numSubprogsOfLength subprogsOfLength = let interiorCount = numSubprogsOfLength (loopLen-2) posteriorCount = numSubprogsOfLength (len-loopLen) in (interiorCount * posteriorCount, \n -> let (interiorN,posteriorN) = n `quotRem` posteriorCount interiorChoices = subprogsOfLength (loopLen-2) posteriorChoices = subprogsOfLength (len-loopLen) in "[" ++ (binDex interiorChoices interiorN) ++ "]" ++ (binDex posteriorChoices posteriorN) ) bracketPairings = catalan catalan n = ((2*n) `choose` n) `quot` (n+1) n `choose` r = product [n-r+1..n] `quot` product [1..r] ____________________________ cut here ____________________________ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 01 11:45:11 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Own6-000M9e-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:44:12 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:44:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Owkq-000M8s-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:41:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:41:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Owkf-000M8k-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:41:42 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.165 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:41:06 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:34:48 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c220da$29d3f030$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C220E2.8BE65120" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20020630104021.A7686@cs.helsinki.fi> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C220E2.8BE65120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 04:16:11PM +0100, dmoss@tdsi.co.uk wrote: >> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/ and >> http://home.wxs.nl/~faase009/Ha_BF.html >> are the closest to a spec that I have come about. > >Yeah. I checked the "original spec" (available at for example >http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/impl/compilers/bfc/brainfuck.txt) and saw >that the array size really is specified to be 30000. Faase's spec does not >have this limitation (not surprising, he seems to be quite >mathematically-oriented.) > >> yours are funnier, through... I'll probably write a 1.0 compliant >> interpreter... > >Well thank you, though only one of them is "mine" actually. They're carefully >crafted by a democratic standardisation institute, mind you. > >Panu The only non conformances in my interpreter to that spec is that my interpreter: - Is not written in assembly, but in portable Pascal (attached) - Checks for [ and ] balance (justified because its an interpreter... it mimics a compiled program, which wouldn't run with unbalanced loops) - Its an interpreter :) - Has no interactive mode - Has no debug mode (#) - The executable is 20KB - Its prettier :p ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C220E2.8BE65120 Content-Type: text/Pascal; name="bf.pas" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bf.pas" (* If using Delphi/Kylix, rename this file to bf.dpr and compile. *) program bf; {$IFDEF WIN32} {$APPTYPE CONSOLE} {$ENDIF} { Global variables } var ins : array of integer; { Points at which loops enter = } var outs : array of integer; { Points at which loops exit = } var memory : array[0..29999] of byte; { Memory array for the BF Runtime = } var pointer : integer; { The pointer to the memory = section } var code : String; { The BrainFuck Code = } function getEndLoop(i : integer) : integer; var o : integer; begin getEndLoop :=3D -1; for o :=3D 0 to System.Length(ins) do begin if ins[o] =3D i then begin getEndLoop :=3D outs[o]; System.Exit; end; end; end; function getStartLoop(i : integer) : integer; var o : integer; begin getStartLoop :=3D -1; for o :=3D 0 to System.Length(outs) do begin if outs[o] =3D i then begin getStartLoop :=3D ins[o]; System.Exit; end; end; end; (* Checks the code for correctness and validity *) function test : boolean; var balance : integer; var x : integer; var xi : integer; var i : integer; var o : integer;=20 var inAt : integer; var outAt : integer; begin balance :=3D 0; inAt :=3D 0; outAt :=3D 0; x :=3D 0; xi :=3D 0; for i :=3D 1 to System.Length(code) do begin case code[i] of '[' : x :=3D x + 1; ']' : xi :=3D xi + 1; end; end; if x <> xi then begin System.Writeln(System.ErrOutput, 'Balance Error: ' + 'Check the number of "["s against the number of = "]"s'); System.Halt(1); end; System.SetLength(ins, x); System.SetLength(outs, x); for i :=3D 1 to System.Length(code) do begin case code[i] of '[' : begin balance :=3D balance + 1; ins[inAt] :=3D i; outAt :=3D inAt; inAt :=3D inAt + 1; end; ']' : begin balance :=3D balance - 1; for o :=3D outAt downto 0 do begin if outs[o] =3D 0 then begin outs[o] :=3D i; System.Break; end; end; end; end; if balance < 0 then begin test :=3D false; System.Writeln(System.errOutput, 'BalanceError: Check your = code'); System.Exit; end; end; test :=3D true; end; (* Executes the code *) function execute : integer; var i : integer; var c : char; begin i :=3D 1; { have to use while because you can't assign in for } while i <=3D System.Length(code) do begin case code[i] of '+' : begin if memory[pointer] =3D 255 then begin memory[pointer] :=3D 0; end else begin memory[pointer] :=3D memory[pointer] + 1; end; end; '-' : begin if memory[pointer] =3D 0 then begin memory[pointer] :=3D 255; end else begin memory[pointer] :=3D memory[pointer] - 1; end; end; '>' : begin if pointer >=3D 29999 then begin pointer :=3D 0; end else begin pointer :=3D pointer + 1; end; end; '<' : begin if pointer <=3D 0 then begin pointer :=3D 29999 end else begin pointer :=3D pointer - 1; end; end; '[' : begin if memory[pointer] =3D 0 then begin i :=3D getEndLoop(i); end; end; ']' : begin i :=3D getStartLoop(i) - 1; end; '.' : begin System.Write(Chr(memory[pointer])); end; ',' : begin=20 System.Read(System.Input, c); memory[pointer] :=3D Byte(c); end; end; i :=3D i + 1; end; execute :=3D memory[pointer]; end; { don't want the other functions to see this... } var fcode : textFile; var fname : String; var ch : char; (* Actual program starts here *) begin if System.ParamCount < 1 then begin System.Writeln(System.ErrOutput, 'ERROR: No file specified'); System.Halt(1); end; code :=3D ''; fname :=3D System.ParamStr(1); { Assign and open file. } System.AssignFile(fcode, fname); {$I-} { Handle file errors manually } System.Reset(fcode); {$I+} { Check that file is there! } if not (System.IOResult =3D 0) then begin System.writeLn(System.ErrOutput, 'Error in file:'#10'"' + fname + '"'#10'File does not exist or cannot be = opened.'); System.Halt(1); end; { Read file } while not System.Eof(fcode) do begin System.Read(fcode, ch); code :=3D code + ch; end; =20 System.CloseFile(fcode); if not test then begin=20 System.writeLn(System.ErrOutput, 'Your code is not balanced.'#10 = + 'Please check your code and try again.'); System.Halt(1); end; System.ExitCode :=3D execute; end. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C220E2.8BE65120-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 01 14:10:21 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Oz4I-000Ng5-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:10:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:09:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Oz3p-000Nfy-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:09:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:09:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Oz3d-000Nfr-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:09:26 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p98.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.98]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g61B9Hf05550 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:09:19 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <00ff01c220ee$df214500$8481ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <000401c220da$29d3f030$a500000a@td165> Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:31:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello! (Whats your name pls ?) Nicelly Done ! Pascal (Delphi/Kylix) has always been the best ! :-) Kind Regards, Lennie De Villiers SYSTEMS DEVELOPER & SOFTWARE CONSULTANT Tel: +27 82 4455949 Fax: +27 82 131 4455949 Email: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Web Address: http://www.lando.co.za/Lennie My CV: http://www.lando.co.za/Lennie/CV.htm ++++ > The only non conformances in my interpreter to that spec is that my > interpreter: > - Is not written in assembly, but in portable Pascal (attached) > - Checks for [ and ] balance (justified because its an interpreter... it > mimics a compiled program, which wouldn't run with unbalanced loops) > - Its an interpreter :) > - Has no interactive mode > - Has no debug mode (#) > - The executable is 20KB > - Its prettier :p > From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 01 14:54:03 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17OzjO-000Ntq-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:52:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:52:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Ozei-000Nsk-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:47:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:47:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17OzeZ-000Nse-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:47:35 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.165 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:52:35 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:46:15 +0100 Message-ID: <000901c220f4$e8086ad0$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <00ff01c220ee$df214500$8481ef9b@lennie> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >Hello! (Whats your name pls ?) David Moss > >Nicelly Done ! Pascal (Delphi/Kylix) has always been the best ! :-) And its GPL'd in case anyone wants to mess around with it... > >Kind Regards, > >Lennie De Villiers David S. Moss ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>+<<<<<<-]>>++++ +++>++++ +++>++++>++++>++[<]>.>.<....>.<....>..<....>...<..>...>>>>.<.<<<<.>>>.<<<..> >.<<.>>> >.<<<<..>>.<<..>>>.<<<..>>.<<....> M O S S ! >.>>>.<.<<<<..>>>.<.<<..>>>>.<<<<.> >>>.<<<<....>>>>.<<<<.>>>.<<..<..>>>.<<..>>>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<.>>>>.<<< <....>>> >.<<<<....>>>.<<<....>>>.>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<..>>>.<<..>.<<..>...>.<<.>. ..>.>>>. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 01 15:49:39 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P0cT-000OE8-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 15:49:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 15:49:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P0cB-000ODw-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 15:49:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 15:49:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [212.250.174.249] (helo=abydos.freakymousemats.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P0c2-000ODp-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 15:49:02 +0300 Received: by abydos.freakymousemats.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 5EDCBC3B2; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:49:02 +0100 (BST) To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait From: Cal Henderson X-Sender: X-Mailer: CalMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020701124902.5EDCBC3B2@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:49:02 +0100 (BST) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc second version: http://dev.swp-emap.com/bf_wait_2.cgi new features: * balancing fixed (it was putting ']' at the start instead of '[') * octal version :) * 0-255 cell values and 0-29999 cells (as per the original spec) * loop protection - terminates a loop if a single loop fires more than 30000 times this isn't perfect though - a program of "+[[]]" will take a while and produces a large error report * optionally run a program for any time: http://dev.swp-emap.com/bf_wait_2.cgi?time=1234 the time argument is in decimal, but is also converted to octal * optionally display the JIT compiled perl http://dev.swp-emap.com/bf_wait_2.cgi?showperl=1 the translation table is as follows: s/0/+/g; s/1/-/g; s/2/>/g; s/3/; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:14:38 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:08:16 +0100 Message-ID: <000f01c22100$5d8d1980$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20020701124902.5EDCBC3B2@abydos.freakymousemats.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > second version: > http://dev.swp-emap.com/bf_wait_2.cgi > > new features: This is cool :) ... you can implement it in client side JavaScript and save the server the processing... Dave. ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>+<<<<<<-]>>++++ +++>++++ +++>++++>++++>++[<]>.>.<....>.<....>..<....>...<..>...>>>>.<.<<<<.>>>.<<<..> >.<<.>>> >.<<<<..>>.<<..>>>.<<<..>>.<<....> M O S S ! >.>>>.<.<<<<..>>>.<.<<..>>>>.<<<<.> >>>.<<<<....>>>>.<<<<.>>>.<<..<..>>>.<<..>>>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<.>>>>.<<< <....>>> >.<<<<....>>>.<<<....>>>.>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<..>>>.<<..>.<<..>...>.<<.>. ..>.>>>. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 01 20:49:19 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P5IQ-000PH8-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 20:49:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 20:48:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P5Hc-000PGx-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 20:48:16 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 20:48:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P5HU-000PGq-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 20:48:08 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g61Hm5004293 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:48:06 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 10:48:01 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3D1F8185.ED036856@dds.nl> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Daniel wrote: > >>>>> the problem is that i don't think 9 character bf prog can output anything >>>>> visible. >>>> >>>> How about audible? Nobody addressed that question. >>>> +++++++. >>> >>> +[.+] is visible. >> >> I know. I was making a little joke. >> (--. is also visible, as I later discovered. As is -. for that matter.) > > It depends on whether you use 7-bit ASCII or an 8-bit extension thereof. In > ASCII, --. and -. are both invisible. Or rather it's not defined what they would look like? In any case, I was talking about the bf-wait implementation, in which -. and --. are visible as y-umlaut and thorn respectively. >>>> You could even include , if you had data to >>>> feed it. >>> >>> The keyboard, obviously. What do you mean "if"? >> >> That would take a little bit more work to do via the web, which I assume is >> why he didn't include the , . I was suggesting routing data to the program >> from a fixed file as a compromise measure. > > One of those edit boxes (sorry, I don't know enough HTML to say more)? Plain HTML doesn't allow for interaction like that; you'd have to use a cgi script or something. Now that would be necessary for even the version without input, as it runs when the page is accessed; but accepting input via the web would take (again) a little bit more work than that. > And why through the web? I can download my own copy, and then I do have a > keyboard. If he implemented it in a thoroughly portable way, sure. But downloading a copy and running it is a little more trouble than just accessing a web page anyway. > Oh yeah, and if you allow input, then ,. might also produce visible output. True. As might any number of things. -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 01 21:28:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P5uq-000PQt-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:28:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:28:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P5uV-000PQk-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:28:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:28:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P5uI-000PQc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:28:15 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p209.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.209]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g61IRpb06607; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 20:27:51 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <001201c2212c$2244b140$d181ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: "EsoLang Lang" Subject: [lang] ANN: 'e' (Exclamation) V1.5 for PalmOS Release ! Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 20:21:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello! I'm very please to announce the PalmOS release of my 'e' (Exclamation) esoteric programming language V1.5. Where the goal's to write programs using only a combination of exclamation marks (!) - What A Challenge ! :-) The 'e' website is at http://www.lando.co.za/Lennie/esolang/e/index.htm or for direct download: http://www.lando.co.za/Lennie/libs/e_15_palmOS.zip Requirements: PalmOS 3.5 and later SmallBASIC @ Palm 0.8.0 If you've any questions about 'e', then please use my website's discussion forum: http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/199643 (BBoard link on main webpages) Kind Regards, Lennie De Villiers SYSTEMS DEVELOPER & SOFTWARE CONSULTANT Tel: +27 82 4455949 Fax: +27 82 131 4455949 Email: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Web Address: http://www.lando.co.za/Lennie My CV: http://www.lando.co.za/Lennie/CV.htm From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 01 23:38:10 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P7vr-000Pwz-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:37:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:37:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P7v8-000Pws-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:37:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:37:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P7v0-000Pwm-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:37:06 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-237-174.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.237.174]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01AF543EE30 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:37:02 +0200 (MEST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D208BEE.75FBA58F@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 19:05:50 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote: > Here's a generalization of that: pick an enumeration of the syntactically > valid programs in your target language and use that as your mapping > function. Once you use an arbitrary enumeration, it *becomes* the target language. By picking the enumeration in a sufficiently twisted way, you can make any language look like any other. > Programmatically enumerating valid BF programs is not too hard (though it > is non-trivial, because of the balanced-bracket requirement). I > implemented one possible enumeration in Haskell (see below for code). Sorry, I don't know Haskell. How does it work? > Examples: > > bfProgramNumber 0 -> "" > bfProgramNumber 1 -> "+" > bfProgramNumber 100 -> "-<-" > bfProgramNumber 901263567019234823958162349816720395816273095481236540192 > -> "+<->><,<->[+--][.]-[.-.,[[++]]+,.+][++<.,>[[+<>-][+[.].+-]]>],.-.." > > The last one takes a few seconds to generate when running under Hugs. And where did the number come from? In any case it wasn't intentially designed to produce an interesting program, since [.] certainly looks crazy. It also doesn't look like a time_t value, unless you posted this from the future, in which case the Date: header in the email is wrong... > This is also a pretty nice Goedel numbering. Maybe I should implement the > inverse function. Yeah, otherwise we wouldn't know how long to wait to get our favorite program... > As a side note, the number of valid BF programs of length 0,1,2,3,... is > 1,6,37,234,1514,9996,..., which actually appears in the On-Line > Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences (#A025230), in a completely different > guise. As listed in the Encyclopedia it has an additional leading term of > 3. I guess that means that there are 3 valid BF programs of length -1, but > I have no idea what they are. Where is this encyclopedia and what does it describe the sequence as? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 01 23:52:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P89R-000Pzo-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:52:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:51:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P89A-000Pzi-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:51:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:51:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from madness.the-space.net ([216.231.41.66] helo=shub.muppetlabs.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P892-000Pzc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:51:36 +0300 Received: (from breadbox@localhost) by shub.muppetlabs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g61KpW515827; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:51:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15648.49364.294609.648888@shub.muppetlabs.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:51:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Raiter To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait In-Reply-To: <3D208BEE.75FBA58F@dds.nl> References: <3D208BEE.75FBA58F@dds.nl> X-Mailer: VM 6.68 under Emacs 20.7.1 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: breadbox@muppetlabs.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: breadbox@muppetlabs.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >> As a side note, the number of valid BF programs of length 0,1,2,3,... is >> 1,6,37,234,1514,9996,..., which actually appears in the On-Line >> Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences (#A025230), in a completely different >> guise. As listed in the Encyclopedia it has an additional leading term of >> 3. I guess that means that there are 3 valid BF programs of length -1, but >> I have no idea what they are. > > Where is this encyclopedia and what does it describe the sequence as? You can find the Encyclopedia here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0125586302 And here: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/ b From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 02 00:07:19 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P8OD-00007P-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:07:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:07:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P8O2-00007D-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:07:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:06:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P8Nt-000075-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:06:57 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-237-174.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.237.174]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 935FB43E20E for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 23:07:04 +0200 (MEST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D20D181.79CC1192@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:02:41 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait References: <20020701124902.5EDCBC3B2@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Cal Henderson wrote: > second version: > http://dev.swp-emap.com/bf_wait_2.cgi > > new features: > * balancing fixed (it was putting ']' at the start instead of '[') > * octal version :) > * 0-255 cell values and 0-29999 cells (as per the original spec) > * loop protection - terminates a loop if a single loop fires more than 30000 times > this isn't perfect though - a program of "+[[]]" will take a while and produces > a large error report First of all, this program won't occur, since + has code zero in your table. But ignoring or avoiding (>+[[]]) this, I'd say terminate the program completely if any loop is executed too often - breaking it in the middle will ruin the program anyway. > * optionally run a program for any time: > http://dev.swp-emap.com/bf_wait_2.cgi?time=1234 > the time argument is in decimal, but is also converted to octal Doesn't that rather destroy the point of the wait language? > the translation table is as follows: > > s/0/+/g; > s/1/-/g; > s/2/>/g; > s/3/ s/4/]/g; > s/5/[/g; > s/6/./g; Wouldn't s/0/]/g be a better choice? > (other digits are discarded) You mean "other digit is discarded"? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 02 00:07:21 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P8OD-00007R-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:07:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:07:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P8O0-000076-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:07:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:06:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P8Ns-00006z-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:06:56 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-237-174.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.237.174]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4100843EE68 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 23:06:58 +0200 (MEST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D20D053.B6D47CD1@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:57:39 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Daniel wrote: > > And why through the web? I can download my own copy, and then I do have a > > keyboard. > > If he implemented it in a thoroughly portable way, sure. But downloading a > copy and running it is a little more trouble than just accessing a web page > anyway. Unless you're on a dialup connection... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 02 10:52:59 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PISu-0002Ys-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:52:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:52:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PISR-0002Yi-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:52:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:52:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [212.250.174.249] (helo=abydos.freakymousemats.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PISJ-0002Yc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:52:11 +0300 Received: by abydos.freakymousemats.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 3E532C41C; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 08:52:06 +0100 (BST) To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait From: Cal Henderson X-Sender: X-Mailer: CalMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020702075206.3E532C41C@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 08:52:06 +0100 (BST) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc At 23:02 GMT 01.07.02, Milo van Handel wrote: : First of all, this program won't occur, since + has code zero in your table. But : ignoring or avoiding (>+[[]]) this, I'd say terminate the program completely if any : loop is executed too often - breaking it in the middle will ruin the program : anyway. this seems sensible: http://dev.swp-emap.com/bf_wait_2.cgi?prog=21100 : > * optionally run a program for any time: : > http://dev.swp-emap.com/bf_wait_2.cgi?time=1234 : > the time argument is in decimal, but is also converted to octal : : Doesn't that rather destroy the point of the wait language? yes, totally. but it allows you to test that it's working. i gave you the wrong syntax anyway ('prog' not 'time'). Would it be valid if the script set the system clock then ran the program? : Wouldn't s/0/]/g be a better choice? yes. changed: s/0/]/g; s/1/[/g; s/2/+/g; s/3/-/g; s/4/>/g; s/5/ (other digits are discarded) : : You mean "other digit is discarded"? nope, other digits - it operates on octal AND decimal :) --cal "wake from your sleep, the drying of your tears" From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 02 11:11:12 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PIkb-0002fq-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:11:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:10:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PIkO-0002fj-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:10:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:10:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [212.250.174.249] (helo=abydos.freakymousemats.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PIkG-0002fc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:10:44 +0300 Received: by abydos.freakymousemats.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 3AA44C425; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:10:45 +0100 (BST) To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: ANN: 'e' (Exclamation) V1.5 for PalmOS Release ! From: Cal Henderson X-Sender: X-Mailer: CalMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020702081045.3AA44C425@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:10:45 +0100 (BST) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc At 19:21 GMT 01.07.02, D De Villiers wrote: : I'm very please to announce the PalmOS release of my 'e' (Exclamation) : esoteric programming language V1.5. Where the goal's to write programs using : only a combination of exclamation marks (!) - What A Challenge ! :-) really? i seems like you have two characters to combine - exclamation and (white)space. if you imagine your commands are actually like this: !x !!x !!!x !!!!x !!!!!x (where x is any whitespace or EOF) then what you've really got is brainf**k with huffman-like compression - so really you've got 8 instructions. but the number/ascii thing is something that would make brainf**k easier - bf++ anyone? (and you could really do with looping to start solving any problems) --cal "like harrison ford i'm getting frantic" From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 02 11:32:25 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PJ58-0002mo-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:32:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:32:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PJ4w-0002mh-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:32:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:31:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PJ4m-0002mZ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:31:57 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.165 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:37:20 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:30:35 +0100 Message-ID: <000601c221a2$bd4f3ae0$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20020702075206.3E532C41C@abydos.freakymousemats.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc BUG ALERT: http://dev.swp-emap.com/bf_wait_2.cgi?prog=213102 bf-wait time: 213102 program: +[-[]+ program (balanced): +[-[]+] output: coded output: errors: loop limit reached - exiting... octal time: 640156 program: .>][<. program (balanced): .>][<. output: coded output: errors: -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Cal Henderson Sent: 02 July 2002 08:52 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait > > >At 23:02 GMT 01.07.02, Milo van Handel wrote: >: First of all, this program won't occur, since + has code zero in your table. But >: ignoring or avoiding (>+[[]]) this, I'd say terminate the program completely if any >: loop is executed too often - breaking it in the middle will ruin the program >: anyway. > >this seems sensible: >http://dev.swp-emap.com/bf_wait_2.cgi?prog=21100 David S. Moss ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>+<<<<<<-]>>++++ +++>+ ++++++>++++>++++>++[<]>.>.<....>.<....>..<....>...<..>...>>>>.<.<<<<.>>>.<<< ..>>. <<.>>>>.<<<<..>>.<<..>>>.<<<..>>.<<....>>.>>>.<.<<<<..>>>.<.<<..>>>>.<<<<.>> >>.<< <<....>>>>.<<<<.>>>.<<..<..>>>.<<..>>>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<.>>>>.<<<<....> >>>.< <<<....>>>.<<<....>>>.>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<..>>>.<<..>.<<..>...>.<<.>...> .>>>. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 02 16:11:47 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PNRJ-000490-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:11:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:11:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PNQa-00048m-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:10:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:10:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PNQP-00048e-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:10:34 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.165 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:16:02 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] BF compressed Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:09:12 +0100 Message-ID: <001901c221c9$a9bbb770$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C221D2.0B801F70" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20020702081045.3AA44C425@abydos.freakymousemats.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C221D2.0B801F70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I just wrote a quick compressor for BrainFuck (attached)... I know its been done before... I just wanted something to break the boredom at work for a couple of hours and thought you would like it. Its written in Pascal (should compile with just about every Pascal compiler out there) and compresses every 8 bits of BrainFuck code (a char) into just 3 bits (an octal). The table is below: + -> 0x0 - -> 0x1 > -> 0x2 < -> 0x3 [ -> 0x4 ] -> 0x5 . -> 0x6 , -> 0x7 It also writes padding if there are not enough chars in the stream to fill in a read cycle (see the source) and writes a signature at the beginning in the form: [b][f][c][] What to do with the padding is implementation dependent. It can be ignored or executed (the padding is 0's(+) at the end of the file, and have no effect in execution :) ). Dave. ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>+<<<<<<-]>>++++ +++>+ ++++++>++++>++++>++[<]>.>.<....>.<....>..<....>...<..>...>>>>.<.<<<<.>>>.<<< ..>>. <<.>>>>.<<<<..>>.<<..>>>.<<<..>>.<<....>>.>>>.<.<<<<..>>>.<.<<..>>>>.<<<<.>> >>.<< <<....>>>>.<<<<.>>>.<<..<..>>>.<<..>>>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<.>>>>.<<<<....> >>>.< <<<....>>>.<<<....>>>.>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<..>>>.<<..>.<<..>...>.<<.>...> .>>>. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C221D2.0B801F70 Content-Type: text/Pascal; name="bfc.pas" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bfc.pas" program bfc; { Main variables } var str : String; var mid : Array[0..7] of byte; var prt : Array[0..2] of byte; var sig : Array[0..3] of byte; { files } var fin : File of char; var fout : file of byte; { temp vars } var l : longint; var i : integer; var c : char; var b : byte; begin { exe bffile [bfcfile] } if System.ParamCount < 1 then begin System.Writeln('ERROR(1): No file specified!'); System.ExitCode :=3D 1; Exit; end else if System.ParamCount > 2 then begin System.Writeln('ERROR (2): Too many parameters!');=20 System.ExitCode :=3D 2; Exit; end; { Assign and open file. } System.AssignFile(fin, System.ParamStr(1)); {$I-} { Handle file errors manually } System.Reset(fin); {$I+} { Check that file is there! } if not (System.IOResult =3D 0) then begin System.writeLn('ERROR(3): Error in file:'#10'"' + = System.paramStr(1) + '"'#10'File does not exist or cannot be = opened.'); System.ExitCode :=3D 3; Exit; end; if System.ParamCount =3D 2 then begin { Assign and open file. } System.AssignFile(fout, System.ParamStr(2)); {$I-} { Handle file errors manually } System.Rewrite(fout); {$I+} { Check that file is there! } end else begin =20 { Assign and open file. } System.AssignFile(fout, System.ParamStr(1) + 'fc'); {$I-} { Handle file errors manually } System.Rewrite(fout); {$I+} { Check that file is there! } end; if not (System.IOResult =3D 0) then begin System.writeLn('ERROR(4): Error in output file!'#10 + #10'File cannot be written to.'); System.ExitCode :=3D 4; System.Close(fin); Exit; end; { Read file } l :=3D 0; while not System.Eof(fin) do begin System.Read(fin, c); case c of '+','-','>','<','[',']','.',',' : begin str :=3D str + c; l :=3D l + 1; end; end; end; System.CloseFile(fin); sig[0] :=3D byte('b'); { bfc signature } sig[1] :=3D byte('f'); sig[2] :=3D byte('c'); sig[3] :=3D 7 - (l mod 8); { padding from 0 } System.Write(fout, sig[0],sig[1],sig[2],sig[3]); { write sig & = padding } for b :=3D 0 to sig[3] do begin str :=3D str + '+'; { add padding to file } end; l :=3D 1; while l < System.Length(str) do begin { read 8 bytes of str into inp } for i :=3D 0 to 7 do begin case str[l] of '+' : mid[i] :=3D $00; '-' : mid[i] :=3D $01; '>' : mid[i] :=3D $02; '<' : mid[i] :=3D $03; '[' : mid[i] :=3D $04; ']' : mid[i] :=3D $05; '.' : mid[i] :=3D $06; ',' : mid[i] :=3D $07; else begin System.Writeln('ERROR (5): Corrupted memnory.'); System.ExitCode :=3D 5; System.Close(fout); Exit; end; end; l :=3D l + 1; end; { 00000XXX 00000XXX 00000XXX 00000XXX 00000XXX 00000XXX 00000XXX 00000XXX } { XXX XXX XX-X XXX XXX X-XX XXX XXX } { XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX } prt[0] :=3D ((mid[0] shl 5) or ((mid[1] shl 2) or (mid[2] shr = 1))); prt[1] :=3D ((mid[2] shl 7) or ((mid[3] shl 4) or ((mid[4] shl = 1) or (mid[5] shr 2)))); prt[2] :=3D ((mid[5] shl 6) or ((mid[6] shl 3) or mid[7])); System.Write(fout, prt[0], prt[1], prt[2]); end; System.Close(fout); end. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C221D2.0B801F70-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 02 16:23:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PNcQ-0004D4-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:22:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:22:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PNc7-0004Cy-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:22:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:22:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PNbu-0004Cq-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:22:29 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.165 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:27:57 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] BF compressed Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:21:07 +0100 Message-ID: <001d01c221cb$53d3eab0$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C221D3.B59852B0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20020702081045.3AA44C425@abydos.freakymousemats.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C221D3.B59852B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forgot the obligatory samples (attached) Dave. ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>+<<<<<<-]>>++++ +++>+ ++++++>++++>++++>++[<]>.>.<....>.<....>..<....>...<..>...>>>>.<.<<<<.>>>.<<< ..>>. <<.>>>>.<<<<..>>.<<..>>>.<<<..>>.<<....>>.>>>.<.<<<<..>>>.<.<<..>>>>.<<<<.>> >>.<< <<....>>>>.<<<<.>>>.<<..<..>>>.<<..>>>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<.>>>>.<<<<....> >>>.< <<<....>>>.<<<....>>>.>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<..>>>.<<..>.<<..>...>.<<.>...> .>>>. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C221D3.B59852B0 Content-Type: text/brainfuck; name="s.b" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="s.b" ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>+<<<<<<-]>>+= ++++++>+ ++++++>++++>++++>++[<]>.>.<....>.<....>..<....>...<..>...>>>>.<.<<<<.>>>.= <<<..>>. <<.>>>>.<<<<..>>.<<..>>>.<<<..>>.<<....>>.>>>.<.<<<<..>>>.<.<<..>>>>.<<<<= .>>>>.<< <<....>>>>.<<<<.>>>.<<..<..>>>.<<..>>>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<.>>>>.<<<<..= ..>>>>.< <<<....>>>.<<<....>>>.>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<..>>>.<<..>.<<..>...>.<<.>.= ..>.>>>. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C221D3.B59852B0 Content-Type: text/brainfuck; name="some.b" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="some.b" [-][ =0A= Reads 3 chars from stdin and prints them ad-nauseum=0A= =0A= author: David Moss=0A= email : dmoss@tdsi.co.uk=0A= ]=0A= ,>,>,[=0A= <<.>.>.=0A= ]=0A= ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C221D3.B59852B0 Content-Type: app/bfc; name="s.bfc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="s.bfc" YmZjAgAAAIgAEAAAAAEAAEAAAAAEAAAAAAAEG22zUgAAAgAAAgAEAAgI6ss9tlntstntsts9ltkk s823klm3slm8klm29ks3sks29ks3tslklnm29klnm9kks23kks23tsklm28ks3s9klm9kks823tt sklm28klm29tkks23tsks29tklks823ttsklm29klm9lm9ltlm8tssksAA== ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C221D3.B59852B0 Content-Type: app/bfc; name="some.bfc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="some.bfc" YmZjAYbDteuvG8stQA== ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C221D3.B59852B0-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 02 17:20:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17POVK-0004Qn-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 17:19:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 17:19:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17POV4-0004Qf-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 17:19:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 17:19:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17POUv-0004QZ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 17:19:18 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p13.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.13]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g62EJ7f20926 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 16:19:09 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <017601c221d2$90623840$0100007f@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <20020702081045.3AA44C425@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Subject: [lang] Re: ANN: 'e' (Exclamation) V1.5 for PalmOS Release ! Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 16:09:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello Cal Henderson, Yes. If you look at it in detail - programs does exists out of exclamation marks and (white)spaces. The (white)space is use to delimit the exclamation instructions. Another detail, is comments. Any text (none-exclamation) is treated as comments. For example: ! Skip to next CDP !!!!!!! !!!!! Read a num and display it Later on (version 2.0 +) math instructions will be added. Kind Regards, Lennie De Villiers SYSTEMS DEVELOPER & SOFTWARE CONSULTANT Tel: +27 82 4455949 Fax: +27 82 131 4455949 Email: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Web Address: http://www.lando.co.za/Lennie My CV: http://www.lando.co.za/Lennie/CV.htm ++++ > really? i seems like you have two characters to combine - exclamation and (white)space. > > if you imagine your commands are actually like this: > > !x > !!x > !!!x > !!!!x > !!!!!x > > (where x is any whitespace or EOF) then what you've really got is brainf**k with huffman-like compression - so really you've got 8 instructions. but the number/ascii thing is something that would make brainf**k easier - bf++ anyone? > > (and you could really do with looping to start solving any problems) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 02 19:26:36 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PQTf-0004vK-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 19:26:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 19:26:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PQT3-0004vB-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 19:25:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 19:25:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mailout02.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PQSu-0004v5-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 19:25:20 +0300 Received: from fwd11.sul.t-online.de by mailout02.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17PQSo-0005UO-09; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 18:25:14 +0200 Received: from dreizehn (320072378593-0001@[217.0.87.195]) by fwd11.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17PQSd-1u1YTQC; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:25:03 +0200 From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) To: Subject: [lang] AW: BF compressed Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:26:40 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C221F6.02565940" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001d01c221cb$53d3eab0$a500000a@td165> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Sender: 320072378593-0001@t-dialin.net X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C221F6.02565940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Same thing in python def compress(source, target): a,b = [1L],"+-><[].," map(lambda c:a.__setitem__(0, a[0]<<3L|b.index(c)), filter(lambda c:c in b, open(source).read())) d = open(target,"wb") d.write("bfc") s = "%x" % a[0] while s: c, s = s[:2], s[2:] d.write(chr(int(c,16))) d.close() def uncompress(source,target): a,s = open(source,"rb").read(),"0x" if a[:3] == 'bfc': for c in a[3:]: s += "%02x" % ord(c) s,r = eval(s),[] while s: r.append("+-><[].,"[s&7]) s >>= 3 r.reverse() r = "".join(r)[1:] a = open(target,"w") while r: a.write(r[:81]+"\n") r = r[81:] a.close() I can squeeze out an extra two bytes on s.b ;) See attachment. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C221F6.02565940 Content-Type: application/x-compressed; name="stuff.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="stuff.zip" UEsDBBQAAgAIAICe4iy407+ocgAAAKEBAAADAAAAcy5idY/LDcAgDEPvSEyC6gkiL1Kx/xolCaSh Hx+Slw8GWnOd1Mh2i+27k2sxHZ2MVi1peYVTOkEIhiJFVtDEocFqCUPRAVGLN+gjGGBbEfcikkUw 0uFJZonHwFbDeH8PXtuMgRdquUok/PW475lxkgPt47VcUEsDBBQAAgAIADeT4iyai4hzowEAAIgD AAAJAAAAYmZjb21wLnB5ZVLbauMwEH0P5B8GQbcSUUUu0BaR5Av6BauIIMty6+LYYaQ0YenHV76t HVdP0pzxzLl4PktdBrY6ndF5T311Qes4BIPvLjA5n0E8hiewA7V605wsnvZbpQUnLXQyZ1qYU5Ia sNKI49G7kAd3Oh7pkrctzQS11Nvt5u07EXmZuhu1jI3gLC+Cw2GQhbyEZNTQnersyo4jE+hMShlj bVcaGTZwS52Ta0J6SFwxcqIkyWxf87GdPNwIPDTc2uL1Iy8ceDnstbzp9EqudbyqtdQD2M+1H0jz MlDLV88DH2GLyjvK6sd8Nm98vpRTp6dG+15GhxOMMjqpnCxvne15FmnLjYbdDh6jrMcR56xCaAw0 aiO1vDfRw6IWvlw30itMYxJDh+cY97svU1DPuBpp/W1NfVCYcySb0uG3UP7Pi2bTpfv9DjZDEaOi L4e1PaNiHQkRn1VeUmRqNbba/EqXsCk5lKOV9wRMlxQq+brSC3IoyYRivRzV6/3ScYR9jP8DBCR/ 5cGLhHDyTx4OwfkgqksgEEePgoZ7lLdvL95d6dAElzYf/ABQSwMEFAACAAgA7JLiLMofJWRxAAAA nwEAAA8AAABzLWZyb20tcHl0aG9uLmJ1j8sNwDAIQ++VOgmqJ0BeJOr+azRAQujPB3h84iQioUaL lCXKd6fW6jpOMlv7VpZnaHoShKIrU2YDS+zqbJZwVBsQ+xYNxggOuK1oeBHFIhnl8CC3xGPgq2l8 fw9e28xBFGY5SxT89Vj3jDgogP7xC1BLAwQUAAIACADskuIscffuUZYAAACbAAAACAAAAHRlc3Qu b3V0S0pLbmBgcGHgYACCBgYFIMkEYjIw8W67uZKBgRGEmBhYWEpT593W+XYz59vN3HmncyZFPrt9 Uuf2TZ17njq3q1Vn31SdDSRvp2zytrldrbL57JtJkds+eabdvp0y6ez2SZF7553UuXdSdV7u3m03 VTbnPgEKbjupOjs/d1IkkKEzrXLbN7DKTd7mm86+2XbafNrNlGkAUEsBAhQAFAACAAgAgJ7iLLjT v6hyAAAAoQEAAAMAAAAAAAAAAQAgALaBAAAAAHMuYlBLAQIUABQAAgAIADeT4iyai4hzowEAAIgD AAAJAAAAAAAAAAEAIAC2gZMAAABiZmNvbXAucHlQSwECFAAUAAIACADskuIsyh8lZHEAAACfAQAA DwAAAAAAAAABACAAtoFdAgAAcy1mcm9tLXB5dGhvbi5iUEsBAhQAFAACAAgA7JLiLHH37lGWAAAA mwAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAgALaB+wIAAHRlc3Qub3V0UEsFBgAAAAAEAAQA2wAAALcDAAAAAA== ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C221F6.02565940-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 02 22:03:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PSvN-0005gB-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:02:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:02:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PSv6-0005g2-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:02:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:02:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PSux-0005fw-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:02:27 +0300 Received: from cliff (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g62J2E206429 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:02:15 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:03:37 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I've received an interpreter for Beatnik (the Scrabble-based language) an= d=20 some sample code from a fellow who is, remarkably, not on this list. I'v= e=20 asked his permission to distribute the interpreter, but he asked that I p= ut=20 the sample code on the webpage, so I took that as permission to post it h= ere=20 as well. :-) The interpreter (which should be posted shortly) scores in English, Frenc= h,=20 Spanish, Italian, and German. The first program prints Hello, World, and the second prints the digits 9= =20 through 1 in reverse. In the Hello World, everything, including the author's signature, is part= of=20 the program. I've checked over the interpreter source and despite the fa= ct=20 that the program contains 'Hello World', it's not just parroting. --- HE_LLO WO_RLD Beware then grol bitter odd Zanzabarbarians and gett Zambars' cheese grat= er. POP! POP! POPTOP! Sword of Zigzap Fe Fik Foue Fare!! Poptop said Hello worlds!=20 World Poptop said a simple toppop world too. De-foam poptop to goat no beds. Poptop world! Gent-ly gets zipzag then world gets quizzical. Said "Vocabulary small gets quicksilver brain!!" World World poptop said "K pop world worlded top" I should consist of many things, World!!! ... I am Quiting now Micah Schmidt June 2002 --- And the digits: --- Dear JT, Our coughs are loud. Zazoxakonz my cousins pet, A monsters elefantos excites kaltie. wonderfool :) Prints 9 down to 1 --- Now, granted, much of this is in violation of the Beatnik spec because=20 'Zazoxakonz' is not, to my knowledge, a valid word in Scrabble, but hey. = :-) -Cliff L. Biffle From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 02 22:38:38 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PTTv-00060l-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:38:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:38:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PTTe-00060b-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:38:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:38:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from b070117.adsl.hansenet.de ([62.109.70.117] helo=rolands.linux-site.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PTTW-00060V-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:38:10 +0300 Received: (qmail 9032 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 19:38:21 -0000 Received: from roland.hamburg.wg (HELO roland) (@192.168.97.2) by linux.hamburg.wg with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 19:38:21 -0000 Message-ID: <001201c221ff$fd19d1a0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> From: "Roland Illig" To: References: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:38:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: roland.illig@gmx.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: roland.illig@gmx.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Now, granted, much of this is in violation of the Beatnik spec because > 'Zazoxakonz' is not, to my knowledge, a valid word in Scrabble, but hey. :-) I'm currently doing a beatnik interpreter, too, for implementing the towers of hanoi. I have some questions left: - May parameters to commands (as it is the word Zazoxakonz above) have values less than five or greater then 17? - What is the 'official' scrabble encoding of the letters? I'm currently using these: static const int scrabble[] = {1,3,3,2,1,4,2,4,1,8,5,1,3,1,1,3,10,1,1,1,1,4,4,8,4,10}; Roland From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 03 00:00:56 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PUlK-0006dC-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 00:00:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Jul 2002 00:00:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PUkx-0006d4-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 00:00:15 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Jul 2002 00:00:08 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PUkp-0006cy-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 00:00:07 +0300 Received: from cliff (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g62L04211421 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:00:04 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:01:27 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> <001201c221ff$fd19d1a0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> In-Reply-To: <001201c221ff$fd19d1a0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200207021401.27334.cbiffle@safety.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tuesday 02 July 2002 12:38 pm, Roland Illig wrote: > - May parameters to commands (as it is the word Zazoxakonz above) have > values less than five or greater then 17? Yes. I should clarify that. > - What is the 'official' scrabble encoding of the letters? I'm currentl= y > using these: I'm having trouble finding it; when I unpack my Scrabble set I'll post. I wonder if it's copyrighted? :-) -Cliff L. Biffle From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 03 01:40:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PWJQ-0007HF-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 01:39:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Jul 2002 01:39:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PWJ0-0007H7-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 01:39:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Jul 2002 01:39:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rhea.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.178]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PWIs-0007H1-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 01:39:22 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-216-105.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.216.105]) by rhea.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E082B2E44DC for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 00:39:15 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@rhea.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D2236B8.F73DC91F@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 01:26:48 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> <001201c221ff$fd19d1a0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Roland Illig wrote: > - What is the 'official' scrabble encoding of the letters? I'm currently > using these: > > static const int scrabble[] = > {1,3,3,2,1,4,2,4,1,8,5,1,3,1,1,3,10,1,1,1,1,4,4,8,4,10}; Looks right to me. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 03 13:47:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Phf2-000CQ8-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:47:00 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:46:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Phea-000CQ1-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:46:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:46:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PheN-000CPv-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:46:20 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.165 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:52:18 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] Re: AW: BF compressed Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:45:04 +0100 Message-ID: <001c01c2227e$b158b680$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C22287.131D1E80" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C22287.131D1E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >Same thing in python > >... >code >... > >I can squeeze out an extra two bytes on s.b ;) See attachment. And the decompressor... in Pascal. as usual, it should compile with every Pascal compiler known to man :) samples attaches as well... David S. Moss ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>+<<<<<<-]>>++++ +++>+ ++++++>++++>++++>++[<]>.>.<....>.<....>..<....>...<..>...>>>>.<.<<<<.>>>.<<< ..>>. <<.>>>>.<<<<..>>.<<..>>>.<<<..>>.<<....>>.>>>.<.<<<<..>>>.<.<<..>>>>.<<<<.>> >>.<< <<....>>>>.<<<<.>>>.<<..<..>>>.<<..>>>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<.>>>>.<<<<....> >>>.< <<<....>>>.<<<....>>>.>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<..>>>.<<..>.<<..>...>.<<.>...> .>>>. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C22287.131D1E80 Content-Type: text/Pascal; name="bfu.pas" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bfu.pas" program bfu; const LF : char =3D #10; const ln : byte =3D 81; { Main variables } var str : String[8]; var mid : Array[0..7] of byte; var prt : Array[0..2] of byte; var sig : Array[0..3] of byte; { files } var fin : File of byte; var fout : file of char; { temp vars } var i : integer; var o : byte; var b : byte; begin { exe bffile [bfcfile] } if System.ParamCount < 1 then begin System.Writeln('ERROR(1): No file specified!'); System.ExitCode :=3D 1; Exit; end else if System.ParamCount > 2 then begin System.Writeln('ERROR (2): Too many parameters!'); System.ExitCode :=3D 2; Exit; end; { Assign and open file. } System.AssignFile(fin, System.ParamStr(1)); {$I-} { Handle file errors manually } System.Reset(fin); {$I+} { Check that file is there! } if (System.IOResult <> 0) then begin System.writeLn('ERROR(3): Error in file:'#10'"' + = System.paramStr(1) + '"'#10'File does not exist or cannot be = opened.'); System.ExitCode :=3D 3; Exit; end; if System.ParamCount =3D 2 then begin { Assign and open file. } System.AssignFile(fout, System.ParamStr(2)); {$I-} { Handle file errors manually } System.Rewrite(fout); {$I+} { Check that file is there! } end else begin =20 { Assign and open file. } System.AssignFile(fout, System.ParamStr(1) + '.b'); {$I-} { Handle file errors manually } System.Rewrite(fout); {$I+} { Check that file is there! } end; if (System.IOResult <> 0) then begin System.writeLn('ERROR(4): Error in output file!'#10 + #10'File cannot be written to.'); System.ExitCode :=3D 4; System.Close(fin); Exit; end; { read signature &check it } if System.FileSize(fin) < 4 then begin System.Writeln('ERROR (5): File not long enough or invalid!'); System.ExitCode :=3D 5; System.Close(fin); System.Close(fout); Exit; end else begin System.Read(fin, sig[0], sig[1], sig[2], sig[3]); if (sig[0] <> byte('b')) or (sig[1] <> byte('f')) or (sig[2] <> byte('c')) then begin System.Writeln('ERROR (6): Corrupted input file file.'); System.ExitCode :=3D 6; System.Close(fin); System.Close(fout); Exit; end; end; { while not eof } b :=3D 0; while not System.Eof(fin) do begin { read 3 bytes } System.Read(fin, prt[0], prt[1], prt[2]); { process bytes } { XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX } { XXX-XXX-XX X-XXX-XXX-X XX-XXX-XXX } { 00000XXX 00000XXX 00000XXX 00000XXX 00000XXX 00000XXX 00000XXX 00000XXX } mid[0] :=3D (prt[0] shr 5); mid[1] :=3D ((prt[0] and $1c) shr 2); mid[2] :=3D (((prt[0] and $03) shl 1) or (prt[1] shr 7)); mid[3] :=3D ((prt[1] and $70) shr 4); mid[4] :=3D ((prt[1] and $0f) shr 1); mid[5] :=3D (((prt[1] and $01) shl 2) or (prt[2] shr 6)); mid[6] :=3D ((prt[2] and $38) shr 3); mid[7] :=3D (prt[2] and $07); { get chars from bytes } { write 7 chars } str :=3D ''; for i :=3D 0 to 7 do begin case mid[i] of $00 : str :=3D str + '+'; $01 : str :=3D str + '-'; $02 : str :=3D str + '>'; $03 : str :=3D str + '<'; $04 : str :=3D str + '['; $05 : str :=3D str + ']'; $06 : str :=3D str + '.'; $07 : str :=3D str + ','; else begin System.Writeln('ERROR (7): Corrupted memory!'); System.ExitCode :=3D 7; System.Close(fin); System.Close(fout); Exit; end; end; end; for o :=3D 1 to 8 do begin if b >=3D ln then begin System.Write(fout, LF); b :=3D 0; end; System.Write(fout, str[o]); b :=3D b + 1; end; end; { check padding } if sig[3] > 0 then begin System.Seek(fout, System.filePos(fout) - (sig[3] + 1)); System.Truncate(fout); end; System.Close(fin); System.Close(fout); end. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C22287.131D1E80 Content-Type: text/brainfuck; name="test.b" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="test.b" < ,,,,, < ++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ . ++++++++ ++++++++++++++++ +++++ . +++++++ . . +++ . --------------- ---------------- ---------------- ---------------- ---- . ------------ . ++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++ +++++++ . +++++++++ +++++++++++++++ . +++ . ------ . -------- . ---- ---------------- ---------------- ---------------- --------------- . ---------------- ------- ., > >>++++++++++>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<.> >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +.<<.>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<<.>>>[<],.>.<..>.<...> .<....>.<.....>.<......>.<.......>.<........>.<.........>.<...... ....>.<...........>.<............>.<.............>.<............. .>.<...............>.<................>.<.................>.<.... ..............>.<...................>.<....................>.<... ..................>.<......................>.<................... ....>.<........................>.<.........................>.<... .......................>.<...........................>.<......... ...................>.<.............................>.<........... ...................>.<...............................>.<......... .......................>.<.................................>.<... ...............................>.<............................... ....>.<....................................>.<................... ..................>.<......................................>.<... ....................................>.<.......................... ..............>.<.........................................>.<.... ......................................>.<........................ ...................>.<........................................... .>.<.............................................>.<............. .................................>.<............................. ..................>.<............................................ ....>.<.................................................>.<...... ............................................>.<.................. .................................>.<............................. .......................>.<....................................... ..............>.<................................................ ......>.<.......................................................> .<........................................................>.<.... .....................................................>.<......... .................................................>.<............. ..............................................>.<................ ............................................>.<.................. ...........................................>.<................... ...........................................>.<................... ............................................>.<.................. ..............................................>.<................ .................................................>.<............. .....................................................>.<......... ..........................................................>.<.... ................................................................> .<............................................................... ......>.<........................................................ ..............>.<................................................ .......................>.<....................................... .................................>.<............................. ............................................>.<.................. ........................................................>.<...... ................................................................. ....>.<.......................................................... ..................>.<............................................ .................................>.<............................. .................................................>.<............. ................................................................. .>.<............................................................. ..................., ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C22287.131D1E80 Content-Type: app/bfc; name="test.bfc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="test.bfc" YmZjA3//2AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAABsAMSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSScSSSSSTgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAAAMAMSS TiSSScSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSScSSSSSSSSSSSd0kAAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAM8kAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM3kkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM28ko78s9lntlntss9tss9ttlntttlntttss9tttss9ttttlntttttlntt tttss9tttttss9ttttttlntttttttlntttttttss9tttttttss9ttttttttlntttttttttlntttt tttttss9tttttttttss9ttttttttttlntttttttttttlntttttttttttss9tttttttttttss9ttt tttttttttlntttttttttttttlntttttttttttttss9tttttttttttttss9ttttttttttttttlntt tttttttttttttlntttttttttttttttss9tttttttttttttttss9ttttttttttttttttlnttttttt ttttttttttlntttttttttttttttttss9tttttttttttttttttss9ttttttttttttttttttlntttt tttttttttttttttlntttttttttttttttttttss9tttttttttttttttttttss9ttttttttttttttt tttttlntttttttttttttttttttttlntttttttttttttttttttttss9ttttttttttttttttttttts s9ttttttttttttttttttttttlntttttttttttttttttttttttlntttttttttttttttttttttttss 9tttttttttttttttttttttttss9ttttttttttttttttttttttttlnttttttttttttttttttttttt ttlntttttttttttttttttttttttttss9tttttttttttttttttttttttttss9tttttttttttttttt ttttttttttlntttttttttttttttttttttttttttlntttttttttttttttttttttttttttss9ttttt ttttttttttttttttttttttss9ttttttttttttttttttttttttttttlnttttttttttttttttttttt ttttttttlntttttttttttttttttttttttttttttss9tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttss9tt ttttttttttttttttttttttttttttlntttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttlnttttttttttttt ttttttttttttttttttss9tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttss9ttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttlntttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttlntttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttss9tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttss9tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt ttlntttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttlnttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt ss9tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttss9ttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tlntttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttlntttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttss9tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttss9tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt ttttttttlntttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttlnttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttwAA== ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C22287.131D1E80 Content-Type: text/brainfuck; name="test.bfc.b" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="test.bfc.b" <,,,,,<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= ++++++.+=0A= ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.-------------------------------= --------=0A= ----------------------------.------------.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= ++++++++=0A= ++++++++++++++++.++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++.------.--------.-----------= --------=0A= ------------------------------------------------.-----------------------.= ,>>>++++=0A= ++++++>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<.>>+++++++++++++= ++++++++=0A= ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<.>>>++++++++++++++++++++++= ++++++++=0A= +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<<.>= >>[<],.>=0A= .<..>.<...>.<....>.<.....>.<......>.<.......>.<........>.<.........>.<...= .......>=0A= .<...........>.<............>.<.............>.<..............>.<.........= ......>.=0A= <................>.<.................>.<..................>.<............= .......>=0A= .<....................>.<.....................>.<......................>.= <.......=0A= ................>.<........................>.<.........................>.= <.......=0A= ...................>.<...........................>.<.....................= .......>=0A= .<.............................>.<..............................>.<......= ........=0A= .................>.<................................>.<..................= ........=0A= .......>.<..................................>.<..........................= ........=0A= .>.<....................................>.<..............................= .......>=0A= .<......................................>.<..............................= ........=0A= .>.<........................................>.<..........................= ........=0A= .......>.<..........................................>.<..................= ........=0A= .................>.<............................................>.<......= ........=0A= ...............................>.<.......................................= .......>=0A= .<...............................................>.<.....................= ........=0A= ...................>.<.................................................>.= <.......=0A= ...........................................>.<...........................= ........=0A= ................>.<....................................................>.= <.......=0A= ..............................................>.<........................= ........=0A= ......................>.<................................................= .......>=0A= .<........................................................>.<............= ........=0A= .....................................>.<.................................= ........=0A= .................>.<.....................................................= ......>.=0A= <............................................................>.<.........= ........=0A= ............................................>.<..........................= ........=0A= ............................>.<..........................................= ........=0A= .............>.<.........................................................= .......>=0A= .<.................................................................>.<...= ........=0A= .......................................................>.<...............= ........=0A= ............................................>.<..........................= ........=0A= ..................................>.<....................................= ........=0A= .........................>.<.............................................= ........=0A= .................>.<.....................................................= ........=0A= ..........>.<............................................................= ........=0A= ....>.<..................................................................= .......>=0A= .<.......................................................................= ...>.<..=0A= .........................................................................= >.<.....=0A= .......................................................................>.= <.......=0A= ......................................................................>.<= ........=0A= ......................................................................>.<= ........=0A= .......................................................................>.= <.......=0A= .........................................................................= , ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C22287.131D1E80 Content-Type: text/brainfuck; name="s.b" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="s.b" ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>+<<<<<<-]>>+= ++++++>+ ++++++>++++>++++>++[<]>.>.<....>.<....>..<....>...<..>...>>>>.<.<<<<.>>>.= <<<..>>. <<.>>>>.<<<<..>>.<<..>>>.<<<..>>.<<....>>.>>>.<.<<<<..>>>.<.<<..>>>>.<<<<= .>>>>.<< <<....>>>>.<<<<.>>>.<<..<..>>>.<<..>>>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<.>>>>.<<<<..= ..>>>>.< <<<....>>>.<<<....>>>.>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<..>>>.<<..>.<<..>...>.<<.>.= ..>.>>>. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C22287.131D1E80 Content-Type: app/bfc; name="s.bfc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="s.bfc" YmZjAgAAAIgAEAAAAAEAAEAAAAAEAAAAAAAEG22zUgAAAgAAAgAEAAgI6ss9tlntstntsts9ltkk s823klm3slm8klm29ks3sks29ks3tslklnm29klnm9kks23kks23tsklm28ks3s9klm9kks823tt sklm28klm29tkks23tsks29tklks823ttsklm29klm9lm9ltlm8tssksAA== ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C22287.131D1E80 Content-Type: text/brainfuck; name="s.bfc.b" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="s.bfc.b" ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>+<<<<<<-]>>+= ++++++>+=0A= ++++++>++++>++++>++[<]>.>.<....>.<....>..<....>...<..>...>>>>.<.<<<<.>>>.= <<<..>>.=0A= <<.>>>>.<<<<..>>.<<..>>>.<<<..>>.<<....>>.>>>.<.<<<<..>>>.<.<<..>>>>.<<<<= .>>>>.<<=0A= <<....>>>>.<<<<.>>>.<<..<..>>>.<<..>>>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<.>>>>.<<<<..= ..>>>>.<=0A= <<<....>>>.<<<....>>>.>>.<.<<<<......>>>>.<<<<..>>>.<<..>.<<..>...>.<<.>.= ..>.>>>.=0A= ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C22287.131D1E80-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 03 21:31:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PotR-000Fq2-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:30:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:30:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PorI-000Fpf-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:28:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:28:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PorA-000FpX-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:28:00 +0300 Received: from cliff (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g63IRu200839 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:27:57 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:29:20 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> <001201c221ff$fd19d1a0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> <3D2236B8.F73DC91F@dds.nl> In-Reply-To: <3D2236B8.F73DC91F@dds.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200207031129.20536.cbiffle@safety.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tuesday 02 July 2002 04:26 pm, Milo van Handel wrote: > > static const int scrabble[] =3D > > {1,3,3,2,1,4,2,4,1,8,5,1,3,1,1,3,10,1,1,1,1,4,4,8,4,10}; > > Looks right to me. To make this locale-independent, we should really define point values for= each=20 character in the Unicode set. They would have to be locale-relative, tho= ugh;=20 using a Chinese character successfully in English scrabble should get you= =20 more points than in Chinese scrabble. -Cliff L. Biffle From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 03 22:32:00 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Ppqn-000GES-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:31:41 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:31:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PpqE-000GEI-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:31:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:30:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Ppq6-000GEC-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:30:58 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-233-140.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.233.140]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F33440B02 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:30:56 +0200 (MEST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D235E5C.87749DBB@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:28:12 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> <001201c221ff$fd19d1a0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> <3D2236B8.F73DC91F@dds.nl> <200207031129.20536.cbiffle@safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > > > static const int scrabble[] = > > > {1,3,3,2,1,4,2,4,1,8,5,1,3,1,1,3,10,1,1,1,1,4,4,8,4,10}; > > > > Looks right to me. > > To make this locale-independent, we should really define point values for each > character in the Unicode set. What about the non-letters? The space could be the blank, but I don't see what to do with, say, numbers, or punctuation. > They would have to be locale-relative, though; > using a Chinese character successfully in English scrabble should get you > more points than in Chinese scrabble. I don't see why. And what about using an English character in Chinese scrabble? How is the interpreter going to know the difference? Well, the real problem with your idea is that many different languages use the same alphabet as English, but have different scoring. Unicode doesn't differentiate between them. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 03 22:49:16 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Pq7k-000GN0-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:49:12 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:49:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Pq7S-000GMs-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:48:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:48:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp011.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.173.31]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Pq7J-000GMm-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:48:46 +0300 Received: from h-64-236-139-249.aoltw.net (HELO PC632252) (shafalus@64.236.139.249 with login) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 19:48:43 -0000 From: "Simon Montagu" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:48:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Message-ID: <3D22F2B7.1143.9433ACF9@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3D235E5C.87749DBB@dds.nl> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On 3 Jul 2002 at 22:28, Milo van Handel wrote: > Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > > > > > static const int scrabble[] = > > > > {1,3,3,2,1,4,2,4,1,8,5,1,3,1,1,3,10,1,1,1,1,4,4,8,4,10}; > > > > > > Looks right to me. > > > > To make this locale-independent, we should really define point > > values for each character in the Unicode set. > > What about the non-letters? The space could be the blank, but I don't > see what to do with, say, numbers, or punctuation. > > > They would have to be locale-relative, though; > > using a Chinese character successfully in English scrabble should > > get you more points than in Chinese scrabble. > > I don't see why. And what about using an English character in Chinese > scrabble? How is the interpreter going to know the difference? > > Well, the real problem with your idea is that many different languages > use the same alphabet as English, but have different scoring. Unicode > doesn't differentiate between them. > Implementations could make the scoring dependent on a ISO-639 language code. I expect that no-bok and no-nyn have different versions of Scrabble, they certainly have different versions of Monopoly. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 05 00:48:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QESY-0001ms-00; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 00:48:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 05 Jul 2002 00:48:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QERm-0001mg-00; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 00:47:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 05 Jul 2002 00:47:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rhea.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.178]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QERd-0001ma-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 00:47:22 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-210-25.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.210.25]) by rhea.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4823CE31 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:46:54 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@rhea.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D24CFDF.5483C443@dds.nl> Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 00:44:47 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: <3D22F2B7.1143.9433ACF9@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Simon Montagu wrote: > > Well, the real problem with your idea is that many different languages > > use the same alphabet as English, but have different scoring. Unicode > > doesn't differentiate between them. > > Implementations could make the scoring dependent on a ISO-639 > language code. I expect that no-bok and no-nyn have different > versions of Scrabble, they certainly have different versions of > Monopoly. Yeah, but then you can't mix languages in one program, like the English/Chinese example you gave. And what are these "no-bok" and "no-nyn"? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 05 10:39:20 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QNgK-0005dk-00; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:39:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:39:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QNfr-0005dV-00; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:38:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:38:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QNfh-0005dO-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:38:30 +0300 Received: from cliff (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g657cA229618 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2002 00:38:14 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 00:39:36 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> <200207031129.20536.cbiffle@safety.net> <3D235E5C.87749DBB@dds.nl> In-Reply-To: <3D235E5C.87749DBB@dds.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200207050039.36167.cbiffle@safety.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wednesday 03 July 2002 01:28 pm, Milo van Handel wrote: > I don't see why. And what about using an English character in Chinese > scrabble? This is actually derived from an inside joke that I keep forgetting is=20 'inside.' In my local nerd community we play Scrabble such that each=20 consecutive word must be in a different language from the previous. To t= hat=20 end, we have Spanish/French tile sets (an accented 'a' in Spanish is a=20 separate tile from a standard 'a', with different scoring), and at least = one=20 of my friends has managed to find one in Hebrew for that purpose. (My wo= rds=20 tend to be in my own field of languages: 'int', 'atoi', 'stdin'. :-) -Cliff L. Biffle From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 05 19:48:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QWFT-0009aU-00; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 19:47:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 05 Jul 2002 19:47:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QWEc-0009aN-00; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 19:47:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 05 Jul 2002 19:46:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mta01.btfusion.com ([62.172.195.11] helo=btclick.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QWEU-0009aH-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 19:46:58 +0300 Received: from baroness ([213.121.110.7]) by btclick.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GYSBY801.CO8 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2002 17:46:56 +0100 Received: from djf by baroness with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17QWKA-00040N-00 for ; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 17:52:50 +0100 From: David Fletcher MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15653.52962.138889.442511@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 17:52:50 +0100 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples In-Reply-To: <200207050039.36167.cbiffle@safety.net> References: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> <200207031129.20536.cbiffle@safety.net> <3D235E5C.87749DBB@dds.nl> <200207050039.36167.cbiffle@safety.net> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid Sender: David Fletcher X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: david@bubblycloud.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: david@bubblycloud.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Cliff L. Biffle writes: [...] > > This is actually derived from an inside joke that I keep forgetting is > 'inside.' In my local nerd community we play Scrabble such that each > consecutive word must be in a different language from the previous. To that > end, we have Spanish/French tile sets (an accented 'a' in Spanish is a > separate tile from a standard 'a', with different scoring), and at least one > of my friends has managed to find one in Hebrew for that purpose. (My words > tend to be in my own field of languages: 'int', 'atoi', 'stdin'. :-) > If you can use C, can you use Adventurese? "XYZZY" on a triple word score has got to be worth a few points. -- David. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 05 21:29:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QXot-000AFk-00; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 21:28:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 05 Jul 2002 21:28:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QXoQ-000AFd-00; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 21:28:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 05 Jul 2002 21:28:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp018.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.174.115]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QXoH-000AFX-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Jul 2002 21:28:01 +0300 Received: from h-64-236-139-249.aoltw.net (HELO PC632252) (shafalus@64.236.139.249 with login) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2002 18:27:58 -0000 From: "Simon Montagu" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 11:28:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Message-ID: <3D2582CC.21467.9E368040@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3D24CFDF.5483C443@dds.nl> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On 5 Jul 2002 at 0:44, Milo van Handel wrote: > Simon Montagu wrote: > > > > Well, the real problem with your idea is that many different > > > languages use the same alphabet as English, but have different > > > scoring. Unicode doesn't differentiate between them. > > > > Implementations could make the scoring dependent on a ISO-639 > > language code. I expect that no-bok and no-nyn have different > > versions of Scrabble, they certainly have different versions of > > Monopoly. > > Yeah, but then you can't mix languages in one program, like the > English/Chinese example you gave. And what are these "no-bok" and > "no-nyn"? First, that was Cliff's example, not mine, but I suppose you could mix languages by specifying a rotation order for the different languages. no-bok and no-nyn are Bokmal and Nynorsk, dialects of Norwegian. http://www.bugeurope.com/essentials/norwegian.html _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 06 01:28:43 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QbYZ-000Bm2-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 01:28:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 06 Jul 2002 01:27:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QbXp-000Blq-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 01:27:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 06 Jul 2002 01:27:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QbXi-000Blj-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 01:27:10 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-195-22.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.195.22]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96AB71C6489 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:27:07 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D262962.E079CA06@dds.nl> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 01:18:58 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> <200207031129.20536.cbiffle@safety.net> <3D235E5C.87749DBB@dds.nl> <200207050039.36167.cbiffle@safety.net> <15653.52962.138889.442511@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc David Fletcher wrote: > Cliff L. Biffle writes: > > [...] > > > > > This is actually derived from an inside joke that I keep forgetting is > > 'inside.' In my local nerd community we play Scrabble such that each > > consecutive word must be in a different language from the previous. To that > > end, we have Spanish/French tile sets (an accented 'a' in Spanish is a > > separate tile from a standard 'a', with different scoring), and at least one > > of my friends has managed to find one in Hebrew for that purpose. (My words > > tend to be in my own field of languages: 'int', 'atoi', 'stdin'. :-) > > > > If you can use C, can you use Adventurese? "XYZZY" on a triple word > score has got to be worth a few points. If you're lucky enough to have those letters (er, in what tile set are there two Zs?) and be able to reach a triple word score, you deserve to be able to place it. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 06 01:28:48 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QbYf-000Bm8-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 01:28:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 06 Jul 2002 01:28:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QbXn-000Bli-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 01:27:15 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 06 Jul 2002 01:27:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QbXe-000Blc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 01:27:06 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-195-22.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.195.22]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AD601C6991 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:27:03 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D262919.70584346@dds.nl> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 01:17:46 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> <200207031129.20536.cbiffle@safety.net> <3D235E5C.87749DBB@dds.nl> <200207050039.36167.cbiffle@safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > On Wednesday 03 July 2002 01:28 pm, Milo van Handel wrote: > > I don't see why. And what about using an English character in Chinese > > scrabble? > > This is actually derived from an inside joke that I keep forgetting is > 'inside.' In my local nerd community we play Scrabble such that each > consecutive word must be in a different language from the previous. To that > end, we have Spanish/French tile sets (an accented 'a' in Spanish is a > separate tile from a standard 'a', with different scoring), and at least one > of my friends has managed to find one in Hebrew for that purpose. (My words > tend to be in my own field of languages: 'int', 'atoi', 'stdin'. :-) Do you mean on one board? It seems hard to me to connect a Hebrew word to a Spanish, French, English, Chinese, or whatever else word, since no words currently existing mix letters from different languages. I don't think I quite understood you. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 06 07:39:40 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QhM1-000ErJ-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 07:39:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 06 Jul 2002 07:39:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QhLP-000Er9-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 07:38:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 06 Jul 2002 07:38:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mailout5-1.nyroc.rr.com ([24.92.226.169] helo=mailout5.nyroc.rr.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QhLH-000Er3-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 07:38:43 +0300 Received: from mail1.twcny.rr.com (mail1-1.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.139]) by mailout5.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.6/RoadRunner 1.20) with ESMTP id g664cdL05424 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from riff ([24.92.246.4]) by mail1.twcny.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:38:38 -0400 Received: from rob by riff with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17QhLJ-0004g9-00 for ; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 00:38:45 -0400 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:38:44 -0400 From: Rob Speer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Message-ID: <20020706043844.GA17888@twcny.rr.com> References: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> <200207031129.20536.cbiffle@safety.net> <3D235E5C.87749DBB@dds.nl> <200207050039.36167.cbiffle@safety.net> <15653.52962.138889.442511@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3D262962.E079CA06@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D262962.E079CA06@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Is-It-Not-Nifty: www.sluggy.com Sender: Rob Speer X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rob@twcny.rr.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rob@twcny.rr.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 01:18:58AM +0200, Milo van Handel wrote: > If you're lucky enough to have those letters (er, in what tile set are there two > Zs?) Polish. There's several Z's in their Scrabble set, I'm told. -- Rob Speer From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 06 10:44:55 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QkFK-000G0b-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 10:44:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 06 Jul 2002 10:44:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QkEo-000G0R-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 10:44:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 06 Jul 2002 10:44:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QkEg-000G0L-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 10:44:06 +0300 Received: from cliff (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g667i3225928 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:44:03 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:45:29 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> <200207050039.36167.cbiffle@safety.net> <3D262919.70584346@dds.nl> In-Reply-To: <3D262919.70584346@dds.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200207060045.29591.cbiffle@safety.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Friday 05 July 2002 04:17 pm, Milo van Handel wrote: > Do you mean on one board? It seems hard to me to connect a Hebrew word= to > a Spanish, French, English, Chinese, or whatever else word, since no wo= rds > currently existing mix letters from different languages. Well, we don't have a Chinese set, though I imagine it would contain quit= e a=20 few tiles. :-) Languages using the roman alphabet are relatively easy to connect, and fo= r=20 Hebrew, we take advantage of the fact that to us non-speakers, most every= =20 letter looks like, well, 'n'. *grin* You must keep in mind also that this is a silly party game, not a competi= tion=20 sport. :-) -Cliff L. Biffle From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 06 15:47:30 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QoyA-000Hxf-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 15:47:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 06 Jul 2002 15:47:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QoxN-000HxU-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 15:46:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 06 Jul 2002 15:46:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Qox9-000HxJ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 15:46:20 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p160.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.160]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g66Cjuf04031 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 14:45:57 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <011f01c224ea$318f0940$a081ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <000901c220f4$e8086ad0$a500000a@td165> Subject: [lang] Re: Spec for wait Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 13:31:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello David Moss, > >Nicelly Done ! Pascal (Delphi/Kylix) has always been the best ! :-) > And its GPL'd in case anyone wants to mess around with it... I'm a big Delphi/Kylix fan (on both MS Windows & Linux) and will never stop using it in proffesional development. Kind Regards, Lennie De Villiers SYSTEMS DEVELOPER & SOFTWARE CONSULTANT Tel: +27 82 4455949 Fax: +27 82 131 4455949 Email: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Web Address: http://www.lando.co.za/Lennie My CV: http://www.lando.co.za/Lennie/CV.htm From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 06 20:22:42 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QtGW-000Jjw-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:22:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:22:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QtG2-000Jjc-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:22:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:21:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from b070117.adsl.hansenet.de ([62.109.70.117] helo=rolands.linux-site.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QtFt-000JjV-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:21:57 +0300 Received: (qmail 933 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2002 17:22:04 -0000 Received: from roland.hamburg.wg (HELO roland) (@192.168.97.2) by linux.hamburg.wg with SMTP; 6 Jul 2002 17:22:04 -0000 Message-ID: <001101c22511$a065e7e0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> From: "Roland Illig" To: Subject: [lang] Beatnik word list Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 19:21:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: roland.illig@gmx.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: roland.illig@gmx.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hi, I created a word list for beatnik which contains many words from the current ispell distribution (the files english.[0123]), odered by scrabble score. http://rolands.linux-site.net/pub/esoteric/beatnik/ And I have another question: Do the beatnik statements really have to be english words? It is 1) My interpreter would grow from 5 kB to 5 MB in size. 2) My beatnik disassembler would (at the moment) not generate valid beatnik 3) My "Towers of Hanoi" implementation would take some more time, because at the moment I can jump 255 statements forward (using "bz xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxviii") (note that 'x' is 10 oct, not 10 dec. Also, 'v' is 4 dec = 4 oct = 1/2 'x'). With the limitation to real english words, I would have to insert some "middle jump points", where I just jump to jump to the next point. Roland From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Jul 07 02:10:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Qygd-000LtL-00; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 02:09:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 07 Jul 2002 02:09:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Qyg3-000LqK-00; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 02:09:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 07 Jul 2002 02:09:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Qyfu-000Lq9-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 02:09:10 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-233-8.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.233.8]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D43043E66E for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 01:09:06 +0200 (MEST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D278596.C9654D8A@dds.nl> Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 02:04:38 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> <200207050039.36167.cbiffle@safety.net> <3D262919.70584346@dds.nl> <200207060045.29591.cbiffle@safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > On Friday 05 July 2002 04:17 pm, Milo van Handel wrote: > > Do you mean on one board? It seems hard to me to connect a Hebrew word to > > a Spanish, French, English, Chinese, or whatever else word, since no words > > currently existing mix letters from different languages. > > Languages using the roman alphabet are relatively easy to connect, I know, that's why I asked about Hebrew... > and for > Hebrew, we take advantage of the fact that to us non-speakers, most every > letter looks like, well, 'n'. *grin* Then how do you know if it's a valid word? Also, there are some letters that might look like an "n" or a "c" depending on how you orient it, but in their *correct* orientation are not similar to any Roman letter... And even if you're a non-speaker, the score numbers in the corners should tell you the correct orientation, or do you count the eight-scored letters as giving an infinity of points? Besides, some letters don't look anything like an "n", what do you do with those? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Jul 07 02:10:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Qyge-000LtM-00; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 02:09:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 07 Jul 2002 02:09:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Qyg3-000LqL-00; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 02:09:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 07 Jul 2002 02:09:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Qyfu-000Lq5-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 02:09:10 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-233-8.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.233.8]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F2143E57E for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 01:08:57 +0200 (MEST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D278633.DCCC9912@dds.nl> Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 02:07:15 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: <200207021203.37592.cbiffle@safety.net> <200207031129.20536.cbiffle@safety.net> <3D235E5C.87749DBB@dds.nl> <200207050039.36167.cbiffle@safety.net> <15653.52962.138889.442511@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3D262962.E079CA06@dds.nl> <20020706043844.GA17888@twcny.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Rob Speer wrote: > On Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 01:18:58AM +0200, Milo van Handel wrote: > > If you're lucky enough to have those letters (er, in what tile set are there two > > Zs?) > > Polish. There's several Z's in their Scrabble set, I'm told. Yeah, but they're probably not worth ten points anymore, so you somewhat lose the point of XYZZY... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Jul 07 15:16:18 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RAxT-0000sO-00; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 15:16:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 07 Jul 2002 15:16:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RAwh-0000sH-00; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 15:15:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 07 Jul 2002 15:15:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mailout08.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.20]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RAwZ-0000s7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 15:15:11 +0300 Received: from fwd05.sul.t-online.de by mailout08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17RAwA-0001gG-05; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 14:14:46 +0200 Received: from dreizehn (320072378593-0001@[217.80.41.44]) by fwd05.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17RAvu-0IkcmOC; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:14:30 +0200 From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) To: "ESOLANG" Subject: [lang] Zer0 Tolerance Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:16:17 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Sender: 320072378593-0001@t-dialin.net X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc A nice language: http://www.winterbergs.de/software/zte.htm From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Jul 07 21:08:19 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RGS2-000376-00; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:08:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:07:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RGRF-00036u-00; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:07:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:07:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RGR3-00036m-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:07:03 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p211.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.211]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g67I5Af15136 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:05:14 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <004601c225df$f5b96d60$d381ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: "EsoLang Lang" References: Subject: [lang] Re: Zer0 Tolerance Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:53:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello Gerson Kurz, > A nice language: > > http://www.winterbergs.de/software/zte.htm Sounds like the name of a movie ! :-) Lennie De Villiers SYSTEMS DEVELOPER & SOFTWARE CONSULTANT Tel: +27 82 4455949 Fax: +27 82 131 4455949 Email: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Web Address: http://www.lando.co.za/Lennie My CV: http://www.lando.co.za/Lennie/CV.htm From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 09 18:44:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Rx8n-000LzY-00; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:43:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:42:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Rx5F-000Lyy-00; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:39:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:39:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Rx56-000Lys-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:39:12 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g69FdBk13196 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:39:11 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g69Fd6b28151 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:39:06 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:39:05 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples In-Reply-To: <3D235E5C.87749DBB@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > Well, the real problem with your idea is that many different languages > use the same alphabet as English, but have different scoring. Unicode > doesn't differentiate between them. Yeah. Rather than to bring Unicode in (which will only complicate matters), the interpreter should probably use its dictionaries to find out which language the program is in, and choose a score table appropriately. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 09 19:51:10 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RyCZ-000MPb-00; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:50:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:50:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RyC7-000MPU-00; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:50:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:50:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from b070117.adsl.hansenet.de ([62.109.70.117] helo=rolands.linux-site.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RyBz-000MPO-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:50:23 +0300 Received: (qmail 4566 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2002 16:51:22 -0000 Received: from roland.hamburg.wg (HELO roland) (@192.168.97.2) by linux.hamburg.wg with SMTP; 9 Jul 2002 16:51:22 -0000 Message-ID: <000c01c22768$bad1f840$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> From: "Roland Illig" To: References: Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:50:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: roland.illig@gmx.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: roland.illig@gmx.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc From: "Panu A Kalliokoski" > Yeah. Rather than to bring Unicode in (which will only complicate > matters), the interpreter should probably use its dictionaries to find out > which language the program is in, and choose a score table appropriately. Hmmm, let's do a valid {french, english, german} beatnik program that prints "hello, world\n". ./bni --debug hello-german.bni checking english dictionary (/usr/dict/english) ... [failed: haus] checking french dictionary (/usr/dict/french) ... [failed: weser] checking german dictionary (/usr/dict/german) ... [ok] executing the german version ... hello, world static const int[] scrabble_german = {1,3,4,1,1,4,2,2,1,6,4,2,3,1,2,4,10,1,1,1,1,6,3,8,10,3}; static int score_german(char c) { c = toupper((int) c); if (c >= 'A' && c <= 'Z) return scrabble_german[c - 'A']; switch (c) { case 'Ä': case 'ä': case 'Ö': case 'ö': return 6; case 'Ü': case 'ü': return 8; } return 0; } Roland From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 09 20:08:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RyTE-000MVO-00; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:08:12 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:08:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RyRT-000MV7-00; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:06:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:06:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from westhost3.westhost.net ([209.150.128.129]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17RyRK-000MV0-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:06:14 +0300 Received: from supernaut (H26.C206.tor.velocet.net [216.138.206.26]) by westhost3.westhost.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g69H6Bx29300 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:06:11 -0500 From: "Nowak" To: Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:05:49 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: nowak@the-inbetween.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: nowak@the-inbetween.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Yeah. Rather than to bring Unicode in (which will only complicate > matters), the interpreter should probably use its dictionaries to find out > which language the program is in, and choose a score table appropriately. > > Panu > Hi, long time lurker first time poster ;) Seeing that Beatnik's only real connection to Scrabble is the letter scoring, I couldn't help but think of bringing more Scrabble into Beatnik. Scrabble is a two-dimensional board game... so, why can't there be a two-dimensional Beatnik? (Beatnik+? Beatfunge??) I'm not sure how control flow would exactly work, but I would think that you'd define a starting point and place a word there. After processing that word, it would go on to the next. Something like 'last letter of first word is first letter of next word.' ie. (I'm not sure how this will format, so excuse me if I muck this up). W E O C R I DIMENSION ?? -mike >+++++++[<++++++++>-]<-----------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.----.++.- -----. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 10 00:00:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17S25P-000Nwj-00; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 23:59:51 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 09 Jul 2002 23:59:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17S22P-000NwC-00; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 23:56:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 09 Jul 2002 23:56:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rhea.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.178]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17S222-000Nw6-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 09 Jul 2002 23:56:22 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-248-123.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.248.123]) by rhea.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ADA339539 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:55:44 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@rhea.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D2B5BE2.CF5B0AD7@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 23:55:46 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > > Well, the real problem with your idea is that many different languages > > use the same alphabet as English, but have different scoring. Unicode > > doesn't differentiate between them. > > Yeah. Rather than to bring Unicode in (which will only complicate > matters), the interpreter should probably use its dictionaries to find out > which language the program is in, and choose a score table appropriately. Yeah, but then you again get the problem of languages using alphabets not appearing in ASCII... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 10 14:04:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SFGo-0003R0-00; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:04:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:04:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SFGF-0003Qt-00; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:03:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:03:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SFG6-0003Qn-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:03:46 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6AB3jk02657 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:03:45 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g6AB3fo16858 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:03:41 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:03:41 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples In-Reply-To: <3D2B5BE2.CF5B0AD7@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > > Yeah. Rather than to bring Unicode in (which will only complicate > > matters), the interpreter should probably use its dictionaries to find out > > which language the program is in, and choose a score table appropriately. > Yeah, but then you again get the problem of languages using alphabets not > appearing in ASCII... Yeah; maybe we should use arbitrary-prefix scorings? Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 10 21:12:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SLwz-00068B-00; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:12:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:12:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SLwB-000683-00; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:11:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:11:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SLw2-00067x-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:11:30 +0300 Received: from cliff (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6AIBR207346 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:11:27 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:12:57 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200207101112.57915.cbiffle@safety.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tuesday 09 July 2002 10:05 am, Nowak wrote: > Seeing that Beatnik's only real connection to Scrabble is the letter > scoring, I couldn't help but think of bringing more Scrabble into Beatn= ik. > Scrabble is a two-dimensional board game... so, why can't there be a > two-dimensional Beatnik? (Beatnik+? Beatfunge??) I've gotten that before, and I think it'd be great. Particularly if you = were=20 constrained to the actual scrabble board, and the various word-score squa= res=20 did something. Just haven't gotten around to amending the spec. :-) -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 10 23:20:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SNwe-0006uT-00; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:20:16 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:20:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SNwL-0006uD-00; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:19:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:19:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SNwD-0006u7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:19:49 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-240-243.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.240.243]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91EC440E8C for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:19:32 +0200 (MEST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D2CA542.30425299@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:21:06 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: <200207101112.57915.cbiffle@safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > On Tuesday 09 July 2002 10:05 am, Nowak wrote: > > Seeing that Beatnik's only real connection to Scrabble is the letter > > scoring, I couldn't help but think of bringing more Scrabble into Beatnik. > > Scrabble is a two-dimensional board game... so, why can't there be a > > two-dimensional Beatnik? (Beatnik+? Beatfunge??) > > I've gotten that before, and I think it'd be great. Particularly if you were > constrained to the actual scrabble board, and the various word-score squares > did something. > Just haven't gotten around to amending the spec. :-) I don't think that would work, since the actual scrabble board is finite-sized, meaning there can exist only finitely many programs, so you won't have a very Turing-complete language... However, it would be interesting, even if we put Beatnik aside for a moment, to make an infinite generalization of the scrabble board... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 10 23:20:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SNws-0006uj-00; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:20:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:20:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SNwj-0006ua-00; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:20:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:20:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SNwb-0006uU-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:20:13 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-240-243.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.240.243]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A14643E158 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:20:09 +0200 (MEST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D2CA56D.819BCA9E@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:21:49 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > > > Yeah. Rather than to bring Unicode in (which will only complicate > > > matters), the interpreter should probably use its dictionaries to find out > > > which language the program is in, and choose a score table appropriately. > > Yeah, but then you again get the problem of languages using alphabets not > > appearing in ASCII... > > Yeah; maybe we should use arbitrary-prefix scorings? Maybe. But what are they? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 11 06:26:59 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SUbF-0009eo-00; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:26:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:26:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SUan-0009ei-00; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:26:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:26:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SUae-0009ec-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:26:00 +0300 Received: from cliff (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6B3Pw231166 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:25:58 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:27:28 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <200207101112.57915.cbiffle@safety.net> <3D2CA542.30425299@dds.nl> In-Reply-To: <3D2CA542.30425299@dds.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200207102027.28935.cbiffle@safety.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wednesday 10 July 2002 02:21 pm, Milo van Handel wrote: > However, it would be interesting, even if we put Beatnik aside for a > moment, to make an infinite generalization of the scrabble board... That's what one would likely have to do; decide whether the Scrabble boar= d is=20 a repeating pattern, how to fill in the additional space, etc. There are= =20 other questions of flow; would it be explicit, or would two branches off = the=20 same word constitute a fork()? :-) -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 11 11:51:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SZfR-000Bnx-00; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:51:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:51:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SZf3-000Bnj-00; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:50:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:50:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mrwaynxd-new.lnk.telstra.net ([139.130.76.194] helo=gateway.michel.com.au) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SZes-000Bnd-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:50:43 +0300 Received: from ork (ork.michel.com.au [203.18.139.105]) by gateway.michel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g6B8lh507646 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:47:43 +1000 From: "Ryan Michel" To: Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:50:36 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk X-list: misc To create higher scoring words you could use double and triple letter and word scores. Using an attribute of the scored word to determine flow after the word is used. Perhaps the score of the word modulus the value of the last/first letter modulus 4. Giving 0, 1, 2 or 3. Left, Right, Up, Down! Example: Brown - Not on any score multipliers using the first letter a 1. or the last letter is a 0. Now we're talking esoteric. perhaps some other attribute of the word ould be used though, just snowballing. ryan -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Nowak Sent: Wednesday, 10 July 2002 3:06 AM To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples > Yeah. Rather than to bring Unicode in (which will only complicate > matters), the interpreter should probably use its dictionaries to find out > which language the program is in, and choose a score table appropriately. > > Panu > Hi, long time lurker first time poster ;) Seeing that Beatnik's only real connection to Scrabble is the letter scoring, I couldn't help but think of bringing more Scrabble into Beatnik. Scrabble is a two-dimensional board game... so, why can't there be a two-dimensional Beatnik? (Beatnik+? Beatfunge??) I'm not sure how control flow would exactly work, but I would think that you'd define a starting point and place a word there. After processing that word, it would go on to the next. Something like 'last letter of first word is first letter of next word.' ie. (I'm not sure how this will format, so excuse me if I muck this up). W E O C R I DIMENSION ?? -mike >+++++++[<++++++++>-]<-----------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.----.++.- -----. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release Date: 20/06/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release Date: 20/06/2002 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 12 00:45:16 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Sljm-000GcB-00; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:44:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:44:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Slhe-000Gc2-00; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:42:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:42:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from static-dialup-isdn-ana.cu.soltec.net ([64.5.68.221] helo=study.anacroatan.org) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SlhV-000Gbw-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:42:13 +0300 Received: from justin by study.anacroatan.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 17SmAL-0006hs-00 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:12:01 -0500 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] 2-d beatnik Message-Id: From: justin@anacroatan.org Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:12:01 -0500 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: justin@anacroatan.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: justin@anacroatan.org Precedence: bulk X-list: misc A syntax highlighting editor could have different colors for the different score multipliers (red is triple word, right?). That sounds doable in an emacs mode. About a generalization of the scrabble pattern - the highest scores are in the corners to make them harder to use, but we get clusters of them with tiling. Maybe that is what we want? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 12 01:04:23 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Sm2t-000GkS-00; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:04:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:04:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Sm2b-000GkM-00; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:04:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:03:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Sm2S-000GkG-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:03:52 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-219-154.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.219.154]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C4937769 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:03:49 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D2E0F5B.1879D6E7@dds.nl> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:06:03 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: <200207101112.57915.cbiffle@safety.net> <3D2CA542.30425299@dds.nl> <200207102027.28935.cbiffle@safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > On Wednesday 10 July 2002 02:21 pm, Milo van Handel wrote: > > However, it would be interesting, even if we put Beatnik aside for a > > moment, to make an infinite generalization of the scrabble board... > > That's what one would likely have to do; decide whether the Scrabble board is > a repeating pattern, how to fill in the additional space, etc. Although it's not a perfect repeating pattern, there are some obvious patterns in there, like the diagonals being completely filled with extra extra scores (ever noticed how the covered portion of the board tends to look like an X after a while?) and the pretty D_4 symmetry (four mirrorings and four rotations). Someone with enough time on his hands could probably come up with a generalization. > There are > other questions of flow; would it be explicit, or would two branches off the > same word constitute a fork()? :-) More importantly, this would require the program to specify the order of the words in the first place, meaning that you can't just type in the board... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 12 08:03:47 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Ssae-000JBB-00; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:03:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:03:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SsaA-000JB5-00; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:03:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:02:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Ssa0-000JAz-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:02:56 +0300 Received: from cliff (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6C52i231308 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:02:44 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:04:16 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <200207102027.28935.cbiffle@safety.net> <3D2E0F5B.1879D6E7@dds.nl> In-Reply-To: <3D2E0F5B.1879D6E7@dds.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200207112204.16311.cbiffle@safety.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thursday 11 July 2002 04:06 pm, Milo van Handel wrote: > Although it's not a perfect repeating pattern, there are some obvious > patterns in there, like the diagonals being completely filled with extr= a > extra scores (ever noticed how the covered portion of the board tends t= o > look like an X after a while?) and the pretty D_4 symmetry (four mirror= ings > and four rotations). Someone with enough time on his hands could proba= bly > come up with a generalization. Why not stack the boards into three dimensions and add a hop up/hop down=20 opcode? Code would thus exist in an infinite rectangular prism. > More importantly, this would require the program to specify the order o= f > the words in the first place, meaning that you can't just type in the > board... Well, Scrabble starts with the center tile, always. Were one to follow t= hat=20 fork()ing suggestion, execution would begin at the center tile and move o= ut=20 in one or two directions (depending on if the word started on the star-ti= le=20 or crossed it). -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 12 12:49:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Sx2l-000Kwc-00; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:48:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:48:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Sx1x-000Ktg-00; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:48:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:47:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Sx1o-000Kta-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:47:56 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6C9ltk24212 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:47:55 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g6C9lqq19951 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:47:52 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:47:51 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples In-Reply-To: <3D2CA56D.819BCA9E@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > > Yeah; maybe we should use arbitrary-prefix scorings? > Maybe. But what are they? I don't know if the name is "standard"; but what I meant was, that we treat the word as a string of bits, and have a scoring table for bit strings of any length. Then we match for the longest prefix, score that, drop the prefix off, and repeat. Should work well enough for any character code. -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 12 12:50:16 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Sx3q-000Kx4-00; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:50:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:49:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Sx3e-000Kwy-00; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:49:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:49:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Sx3W-000Kws-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:49:42 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6C9ndk24549 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:49:40 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g6C9nY620157 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:49:34 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:49:34 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples In-Reply-To: <200207102027.28935.cbiffle@safety.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > > However, it would be interesting, even if we put Beatnik aside for a > > moment, to make an infinite generalization of the scrabble board... > That's what one would likely have to do; decide whether the Scrabble board is > a repeating pattern, how to fill in the additional space, etc. There are The board does not have to be a repeating pattern to make it unbounded, you just have to have _some_ means of generating new board. > other questions of flow; would it be explicit, or would two branches off the > same word constitute a fork()? :-) I vote for indeterminism with backtracking. -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 12 18:18:56 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17T2Bx-000Mrf-00; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:18:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:18:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17T2BU-000Moh-00; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:18:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:18:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17T2BM-000Mob-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:18:08 +0300 Received: from cliff (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6CFI2224821 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:18:03 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:19:35 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200207120819.35105.cbiffle@safety.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Friday 12 July 2002 02:49 am, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > > other questions of flow; would it be explicit, or would two branches = off > > the same word constitute a fork()? :-) > > I vote for indeterminism with backtracking. Of course. :-) -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 13 02:40:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TA1C-000PeE-00; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:40:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:40:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TA0k-000Pdt-00; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:39:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:39:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TA0b-000Pdf-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:39:33 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-210-162.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.210.162]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3CF843F8A6 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 01:39:21 +0200 (MEST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D2F75BE.83D8ECBA@dds.nl> Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:35:10 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2-d beatnik References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc justin@anacroatan.org wrote: > About a generalization of the scrabble pattern - the highest scores are in the > corners to make them harder to use, but we get clusters of them with tiling. > Maybe that is what we want? I think so. Remember, in Beatnik, high scores are not always what you want. In fact, if the score is too high, you get nothing. So having too many high scores only makes it harder on the programmer. Come to think of it, it might even be a good idea if the more common commands were divisible by two and/or three, so that they can also be done on double/triple word squares. And then you still have the double/triple letter squares... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 13 02:40:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TA1C-000PeD-00; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:40:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:40:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TA0d-000Pdm-00; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:39:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:39:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TA0U-000Pdg-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:39:26 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-210-162.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.210.162]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D52B43F81C for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 01:39:24 +0200 (MEST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D2F775D.E16D4C05@dds.nl> Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:42:06 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: <200207102027.28935.cbiffle@safety.net> <3D2E0F5B.1879D6E7@dds.nl> <200207112204.16311.cbiffle@safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > On Thursday 11 July 2002 04:06 pm, Milo van Handel wrote: > > Although it's not a perfect repeating pattern, there are some obvious > > patterns in there, like the diagonals being completely filled with extra > > extra scores (ever noticed how the covered portion of the board tends to > > look like an X after a while?) and the pretty D_4 symmetry (four mirrorings > > and four rotations). Someone with enough time on his hands could probably > > come up with a generalization. > > Why not stack the boards into three dimensions and add a hop up/hop down > opcode? Code would thus exist in an infinite rectangular prism. So all layers would be the same board? Well, this would mean that the third dimension acts differently from the first two. I'm not sure we want that. One idea I once had, but never really thought about much, is the possibility of a language in which the ranges of *all* dimensions are finite, but where the program can achieve infinite size by using an infinite-dimensional space... I don't know how plausible this idea actually is, but it might be worth a thought. But I think that if we get this idea to work, the extended "board" design should be easy. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 13 07:45:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TEmg-0002A0-00; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 07:45:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 13 Jul 2002 07:45:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TElx-00029n-00; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 07:44:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 13 Jul 2002 07:44:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TElo-00029h-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 07:44:36 +0300 Received: from cliff (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6D4iY226299 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:44:34 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2-d beatnik Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:46:07 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <3D2F75BE.83D8ECBA@dds.nl> In-Reply-To: <3D2F75BE.83D8ECBA@dds.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200207122146.07313.cbiffle@safety.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Friday 12 July 2002 05:35 pm, Milo van Handel wrote: > I think so. Remember, in Beatnik, high scores are not always what you > want. In fact, if the score is too high, you get nothing. So having t= oo > many high scores only makes it harder on the programmer. > > Come to think of it, it might even be a good idea if the more common > commands were divisible by two and/or three, so that they can also be d= one > on double/triple word squares. And then you still have the double/trip= le > letter squares... I definitely think that, if we go with a board with 'special' locations, = the=20 values should be reassigned. We may also want to add some really complex= =20 operations (oh, I dunno, public key crypto?) accessible by spelling 'xyzz= y'=20 across a triple-word-score. :-) -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Jul 14 01:08:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TV3S-00081G-00; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 01:07:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 14 Jul 2002 01:07:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TV0y-000817-00; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 01:05:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 14 Jul 2002 01:05:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rhea.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.178]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TV0q-000811-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 01:05:12 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-204-61.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.204.61]) by rhea.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080DB3844A for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 00:05:00 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@rhea.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D30B2F2.CA82DDDB@dds.nl> Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 01:08:34 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2-d beatnik References: <3D2F75BE.83D8ECBA@dds.nl> <200207122146.07313.cbiffle@safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > On Friday 12 July 2002 05:35 pm, Milo van Handel wrote: > > I think so. Remember, in Beatnik, high scores are not always what you > > want. In fact, if the score is too high, you get nothing. So having too > > many high scores only makes it harder on the programmer. > > > > Come to think of it, it might even be a good idea if the more common > > commands were divisible by two and/or three, so that they can also be done > > on double/triple word squares. And then you still have the double/triple > > letter squares... > > I definitely think that, if we go with a board with 'special' locations, the > values should be reassigned. We may also want to add some really complex > operations (oh, I dunno, public key crypto?) accessible by spelling 'xyzzy' > across a triple-word-score. :-) Then you would have to use something more complicated to choose what to do, since, hard as they might be, there are other ways of getting 108 points... Hmm, should Beatnik count the 50 extra points for seven-letter words? Also, it's hard to find a really complex operation that will become so widely used that it's worth being in the language. And besides, if the lanugage already does the hard work, then we lose the fun of programming it ourselves in Beatnik, and then what's the point of an esoteric language? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Jul 14 02:50:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TWdy-0008bT-00; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 02:49:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 14 Jul 2002 02:49:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TWdJ-0008bE-00; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 02:49:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 14 Jul 2002 02:48:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from static-dialup-isdn-ana.cu.soltec.net ([64.5.68.221] helo=study.anacroatan.org) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17TWd9-0008b8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 02:48:52 +0300 Received: from justin by study.anacroatan.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 17TX6I-0001JY-00 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:18:58 -0500 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: 2-d beatnik Message-Id: From: justin@anacroatan.org Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:18:58 -0500 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: justin@anacroatan.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: justin@anacroatan.org Precedence: bulk X-list: misc % > I definitely think that, if we go with a board with 'special' locations, the % > values should be reassigned. We may also want to add some really complex % > operations (oh, I dunno, public key crypto?) accessible by spelling 'xyzzy' % > across a triple-word-score. :-) % Then you would have to use something more complicated to choose what to do, % since, hard as they might be, there are other ways of getting 108 points... % Hmm, should Beatnik count the 50 extra points for seven-letter words? % Also, it's hard to find a really complex operation that will become so widely % used that it's worth being in the language. And besides, if the lanugage % already does the hard work, then we lose the fun of programming it ourselves in % Beatnik, and then what's the point of an esoteric language? A public crypto or other complex easter egg in an esoteric language could open up strange ways of using the language. It could be that some incedental side effect of operation xyzzy is desirable, and xyzzy is the easiest, (though not most transparent) way to do it. The easter eggs could also be written in the language itself. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Jul 15 10:21:11 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17U09q-000JJH-00; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:20:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:20:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17U08g-000JJ0-00; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:19:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:19:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17U08X-000JIu-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:19:13 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6F7JCk30199 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:19:12 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g6F7JAT25294 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:19:10 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:19:09 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples In-Reply-To: <3D2F775D.E16D4C05@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > One idea I once had, but never really thought about much, is the possibility of > a language in which the ranges of *all* dimensions are finite, but where the > program can achieve infinite size by using an infinite-dimensional space... I It sounds like a base-X encoding of an integer. The digits are different dimensions, every dimension is limited to X (the base) and arbitrary number of dimensions can be added. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 16 01:25:12 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UEFe-000Ot3-00; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 01:23:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 16 Jul 2002 01:23:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UECt-000Osu-00; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 01:20:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 16 Jul 2002 01:20:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UECl-000Oso-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 01:20:31 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (unknown [195.241.199.253]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CA253B93E for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 00:20:29 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D33560D.E3E74BD@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 01:09:01 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > > One idea I once had, but never really thought about much, is the possibility of > > a language in which the ranges of *all* dimensions are finite, but where the > > program can achieve infinite size by using an infinite-dimensional space... I > > It sounds like a base-X encoding of an integer. The digits are different > dimensions, every dimension is limited to X (the base) and arbitrary > number of dimensions can be added. Integers are not quite infinite-dimensional, since, say, the vector where all components are 1 is not a valid integer (well, you could argue that it's -1/(X-1), but that's negative, and unless we're working in binary, not an integer). Of course, no program can ever reach such a point in finite time, so I guess the difference doesn't matter much. But remember that the integers also form an example of an arbitrary-dimensional space (as opposed to the infinite-dimensional space, which also allows vectors like the one described above) with infinite ranges for all dimensions, as you can see by doing a prime decomposition. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 16 09:50:16 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UM9l-0001tk-00; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:49:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:49:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UM99-0001tX-00; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:49:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:49:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UM90-0001tR-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:49:10 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6G6n9k01874 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:49:10 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g6G6n7N14219 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:49:07 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:49:07 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples In-Reply-To: <3D33560D.E3E74BD@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > > > One idea I once had, but never really thought about much, is the possibility of > > > a language in which the ranges of *all* dimensions are finite, but where the > > > program can achieve infinite size by using an infinite-dimensional space... I > > It sounds like a base-X encoding of an integer. The digits are different > > dimensions, every dimension is limited to X (the base) and arbitrary > > number of dimensions can be added. > Integers are not quite infinite-dimensional, since, say, the vector where all > components are 1 is not a valid integer (well, you could argue that it's -1/(X-1), > but that's negative, and unless we're working in binary, not an integer). Of True. Though I do think it wouldn't add much to a language to specifically allow using such coordinates (if all dimensions start at 0, and the IP only moves a finite distance at time, there's no way you can end in such a coordinate) > course, no program can ever reach such a point in finite time, so I > guess the difference doesn't matter much. But remember that the > integers also form an example of an arbitrary-dimensional space (as > opposed to the infinite-dimensional space, which also allows vectors > like the one described above) with infinite ranges for all dimensions, > as you can see by doing a prime decomposition. Of course. "there are very little things you cannot represent with an integer, but one of them is a real number", says an old proverb -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 17 00:31:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UZuR-0006yY-00; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:31:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:30:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UZtf-0006yO-00; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:30:15 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:30:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UZtR-0006yI-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:30:01 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-248-111.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.248.111]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D8943E2AD for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:29:57 +0200 (MEST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D349FAD.7F8BD131@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:35:26 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > > > > One idea I once had, but never really thought about much, is the possibility of > > > > a language in which the ranges of *all* dimensions are finite, but where the > > > > program can achieve infinite size by using an infinite-dimensional space... I > > > It sounds like a base-X encoding of an integer. The digits are different > > > dimensions, every dimension is limited to X (the base) and arbitrary > > > number of dimensions can be added. > > Integers are not quite infinite-dimensional, since, say, the vector where all > > components are 1 is not a valid integer (well, you could argue that it's -1/(X-1), > > but that's negative, and unless we're working in binary, not an integer). Of > > True. Though I do think it wouldn't add much to a language to specifically > allow using such coordinates (if all dimensions start at 0, and the IP > only moves a finite distance at time, there's no way you can end in such a > coordinate) Yeah, that's what I meant with my next sentence... Also, the language *cannot* support infinite distances, since there is no way the compiler or interpreter could store that in memory... > > course, no program can ever reach such a point in finite time, so I > > guess the difference doesn't matter much. But remember that the > > integers also form an example of an arbitrary-dimensional space (as > > opposed to the infinite-dimensional space, which also allows vectors > > like the one described above) with infinite ranges for all dimensions, > > as you can see by doing a prime decomposition. > > Of course. "there are very little things you cannot represent with an > integer, but one of them is a real number", says an old proverb Although it's true there is a lot you can represent with integers, there's even more that you can't... Basically, you can use integers to represent any set that has size aleph-null. There are aleph-one reals (mumble mumble continuum hypothesis mumble mumble who cares?), so the integers don't suffice. However, it is possible to represent a computer's memory, even an unbounded one, as a single integer... And how old can that proverb be? Mathematics is new relative to when most "old proverbs" were made... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 17 01:29:12 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Uaof-0007Jh-00; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:29:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:29:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UaoM-0007Jb-00; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:28:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:28:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from b070117.adsl.hansenet.de ([62.109.70.117] helo=rolands.linux-site.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UaoD-0007JV-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:28:41 +0300 Received: (qmail 2452 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2002 22:31:29 -0000 Received: from roland.hamburg.wg (HELO roland) (@192.168.97.2) by linux.hamburg.wg with SMTP; 16 Jul 2002 22:31:29 -0000 Message-ID: <00c601c22d18$2f8e11a0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> From: "Roland Illig" To: Subject: [lang] Esoteric programming example Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:29:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: roland.illig@gmx.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: roland.illig@gmx.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc /* 66-88-6-22-33-777--666-333--3-444-7777-55-7777 */ put vi dupdup dupdup subsub swapit /* 6-88-555-8-444-7-555-999--22-99--^6^ */ dupdup addit dupdup dupdup addit addit /* 6-2-444-66--555-666-666-7 */ { dupdup bnz +ii { ignor terminatenow } dupdup /* 7777-666-6-33-8-44-444-66-4--8-666--3-666? */ { /* 3-444-888--^3^ */ { put whatever dupdup subsub swapit dupdup bz +xxx put i subsub dupdup bz +xxii put i subsub dupdup bz +xv put i subsub swapit put i addit swapit put notzero bnzre -xxxiii ignor } /* 66-666-8--4-777-33-2-8-33-7777--8-44-2-66--^4^? */ { put i swapit dupdup bz +xxxii put i subsub dupdup bz +xxv put i subsub dupdup bz +xvii put i subsub dupdup bz +x put i subsub swapit put i subsub swapit ignor } } /* 4-666-8-666--7-777-444-66-8 */ bnz +xxxxxxxxxxxiii /* 7-88-7777-44--8-44-33--9-2-999--22-2-222-55 */ { dupdup /* 3-444-888-6-666-3--^3^ */ { put whatever dupdup subsub swapit dupdup bz +xxxvii put i subsub dupdup bz +xxvi put i subsub dupdup bz +xv put i subsub swapit put i addit swapit put notzero bnzre -xxxiii put i addit put i addit } swapit /* 9-666-777--^1^ */ { put whatever dupdup subsub swapit dupdup bz +xxvi put i subsub dupdup bz +xv put i subsub swapit put ii addit swapit put notzero bnzre -xxvi put i addit put i swapit subsub addit } dupdup dupdup addit addit addit put vii subsub swapit } /* 44-2-888-33--2--777-33-7777-8 */ { put notzero bnz +x put notzero bnzre -xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxvi put notzero bnz +xxxxxxxxxxxxvi } /* 7-88-7777-44--8-44-33--7777-444-66-4-555-33--6-666-888-33 */ { dupdup /* 6-666-3--^6^ */ { dupdup bz xxxxxxiiii put i subsub dupdup bz xxxxxiii put i subsub dupdup bz xxxxii put i subsub dupdup bz xxxi put i subsub dupdup bz xx put i subsub dupdup bz viii put i subsub put xxi bnzre xxxxx put i addit put i addit put i addit put i addit put i addit } put vii addit swapit } /* 7-88-7777-44--8-44-33--9-2-999--444-66 */ { /* 9-666-777--^1^ */ { put whatever dupdup subsub swapit dupdup bz +xxvi put i subsub dupdup bz +xv put i subsub swapit put ii addit swapit put notzero bnzre -xxvi put i addit put i swapit subsub addit } put vii subsub } /* 22-2-222-55--8-666--8-44-33--6-2-444-66--555-666-666-7 */ put notzero bnzre -xxxxxxxxxxxxxvi /* 7-777-444-66-8--666-66-33--555-444-66-33 */ put xxxx dupdup dupdup addit put xv addit dupdup oputc put xxxi addit dupdup oputc dupdup put ii addit oputc dupdup oputc swapit dupdup oputc swapit put i subsub dupdup oputc put vi addit dupdup oputc put v subsub dupdup oputc swapit dupdup oputc swapit dupdup dupdup put xii addit dupdup oputc swapit dupdup put iii subsub oputc dupdup oputc swapit dupdup put iii addit oputc dupdup put v addit oputc put vi addit oputc oputc swapit dupdup oputc swapit dupdup put xxii subsub oputc dupdup put ii subsub oputc dupdup put iii addit oputc dupdup oputc dupdup put v addit oputc dupdup put iii subsub oputc dupdup oputc swapit dupdup oputc swapit dupdup put xxi addit dupdup oputc dupdup put viii subsub oputc put x subsub oputc swapit dupdup oputc swapit dupdup put xxi subsub oputc put xx addit dupdup oputc dupdup put iii subsub oputc put x subsub oputc oputc /* 44-2-888-33--2--777-33-7777-8 */ { put notzero bnz +v put notzero bnzre -xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxv } /* 7777-666-88-777-222-33--7-444-555-33 */ dupdup { /* 3-444-888--^2^ */ { put whatever dupdup subsub swapit dupdup bz +xxii put i subsub dupdup bz +xv put i subsub swapit put i addit swapit put notzero bnzre -xxvi ignor } /* 6-666-3--^3^ */ { dupdup bz xxxi put i subsub dupdup bz xx put i subsub dupdup bz viii put i subsub put xxi bnzre xxvii put i addit put i addit } put xxxx dupdup dupdup addit addit put i addit addit oputc } put xxxx dupdup dupdup oputc dupdup dupdup addit addit dupdup put i addit oputc put xxvi addit dupdup oputc dupdup put xviii subsub oputc swapit dupdup oputc swapit dupdup put xxxxi subsub oputc dupdup oputc dupdup put iii subsub oputc put x subsub oputc oputc /* 6-666-3--^3^ */ { dupdup bz xxxi put i subsub dupdup bz xx put i subsub dupdup bz viii put i subsub put notzero bnzre xxvii put i addit put i addit } put xxxxi dupdup dupdup addit addit swapit subsub oputc put xii dupdup put xxxxv addit oputc oputc put notzero bnzre -xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxvi } From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 17 01:44:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Ub3D-0007OZ-00; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:44:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:44:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Ub2w-0007OT-00; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:43:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:43:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Ub2o-0007ON-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:43:46 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6GMhTS19421; Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:43:30 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:43:26 -0700 Subject: [lang] random.b (random number generator in brainfuck, using a cellular automaton) From: Daniel To: , Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc ++++++++>>>>>++>+< [ [>>]+>>+ [ -[->>+<[<<<[<<]<<+>>>>[>>]+>-]<[>+<-]] <<<[>>>++++<<<-]>>[>++<-]>>[<+>-] <[>+<-[<+>-[-[<-<<+>>>-[>-<-[<+>-[-]]]]]]] +<< ] <+<<-[>[>+<-]>-[<++>-]] >>[<.[-]<++++++++>>->>]> ] "Random" byte generator using the Rule 30 automaton. Readily alterable to display rules 0-255. Somewhat memory-hungry, naturally. Daniel B. Cristofani (cristofd@hevanet.com) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 17 23:27:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UvNm-000FKL-00; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:26:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:26:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UvMs-000FKE-00; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:25:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:25:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UvMj-000FK8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:25:41 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (unknown [195.241.199.94]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64FC33CEF8 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:25:24 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D35E22B.530B0F93@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:31:23 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Esoteric programming example References: <00c601c22d18$2f8e11a0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc What language is this and what is the program supposed to do? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 18 03:59:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Uzak-000H5S-00; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 03:56:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 18 Jul 2002 03:56:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UzYs-000H5H-00; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 03:54:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 18 Jul 2002 03:54:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from b070117.adsl.hansenet.de ([62.109.70.117] helo=rolands.linux-site.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17UzYj-000H5B-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 03:54:21 +0300 Received: (qmail 8338 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2002 00:57:38 -0000 Received: from roland.hamburg.wg (HELO roland) (@192.168.97.2) by linux.hamburg.wg with SMTP; 18 Jul 2002 00:57:38 -0000 Message-ID: <009901c22df5$ba1263c0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> From: "Roland Illig" To: References: <00c601c22d18$2f8e11a0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> <3D35E22B.530B0F93@dds.nl> Subject: [lang] Re: Esoteric programming example Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 02:54:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: roland.illig@gmx.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: roland.illig@gmx.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc From: "Milo van Handel" > What language is this and what is the program supposed to do? The language: * I think the language isn't turing-complete, but I can't prove. * The program is no valid source code at all -- but almost every interpreter/compiler will accept it. * Why can't you find a letter in the text that looks like a comment? The program: * Find it out! Hint: _I_ wrote it. Roland From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 19 00:52:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17VJC3-000Oey-00; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:52:15 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:52:08 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17VJ9u-000OeY-00; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:50:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:49:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17VJ9l-000OeR-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:49:53 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-248-80.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.248.80]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF824400B8 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:49:35 +0200 (MEST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3D373760.AD50283E@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:47:12 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Esoteric programming example References: <00c601c22d18$2f8e11a0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> <3D35E22B.530B0F93@dds.nl> <009901c22df5$ba1263c0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Roland Illig wrote: > From: "Milo van Handel" > > What language is this and what is the program supposed to do? > > The language: > * I think the language isn't turing-complete, but I can't prove. > * The program is no valid source code at all -- but almost every > interpreter/compiler will accept it. > * Why can't you find a letter in the text that looks like a comment? Aha... I think I get it. Or I might just be going crazy... On the other hand, if I'm on this list, I probably already was... Anyway, how long ago was the last discussion on this list concerning this language? :) > The program: > * Find it out! Hint: _I_ wrote it. OK, so where *is* the interpreter? It was to be "posted shortly" but I don't remember seeing it, or have I missed something? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 19 20:01:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Vb7h-00063s-00; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 20:00:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 19 Jul 2002 20:00:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Vb6k-00063Z-00; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:59:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:59:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.gmx.net ([213.165.64.20]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Vb6b-00063T-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:59:49 +0300 Received: (qmail 12923 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jul 2002 16:59:41 -0000 Received: from 1cust-131.tnt7.hnr2.de.gan.uu.net (HELO ingrid) (149.225.156.131) by mail.gmx.net (mp020-rz3) with SMTP; 19 Jul 2002 16:59:41 -0000 Message-ID: <00be01c22f46$4fd26580$839ce195@ingrid> From: "Roland Illig" To: References: <00c601c22d18$2f8e11a0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> <3D35E22B.530B0F93@dds.nl> <009901c22df5$ba1263c0$0261a8c0@hamburg.wg> <3D373760.AD50283E@dds.nl> Subject: [lang] Re: Esoteric programming example Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:03:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: roland.illig@gmx.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: roland.illig@gmx.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Milo van Handel wrote: > Roland Illig wrote: > > > From: "Milo van Handel" > > > What language is this and what is the program supposed to do? > > > > The language: > > * I think the language isn't turing-complete, but I can't prove. > > * The program is no valid source code at all -- but almost every > > interpreter/compiler will accept it. > > * Why can't you find a letter in the text that looks like a comment? > > Aha... I think I get it. Or I might just be going crazy... On the other > hand, if I'm on this list, I probably already was... Anyway, how long ago > was the last discussion on this list concerning this language? :) I think a few days. (1 \le $few \le 7) > > The program: > > * Find it out! Hint: _I_ wrote it. > > OK, so where *is* the interpreter? It was to be "posted shortly" but I > don't remember seeing it, or have I missed something? The interpreter is at http://www.roland-illig.de/download/bni.zip It is tested under Win32, Linux, Solaris. The program is at http://codesnippet.d2g.com/?num=99 It is -- of course -- an implementation of the Towers of Hanoi. Roland From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 25 15:34:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XhoD-0002R2-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:33:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:33:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Xhma-0002QF-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:31:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:31:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XhmQ-0002Q9-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:31:42 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6PCVfk26067 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:31:41 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g6PCVZS10672 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:31:35 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:38:35 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: Daniel Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ReSent-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:31:14 +0300 (EEST) ReSent-From: Panu A Kalliokoski ReSent-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi ReSent-Subject: Re: Brainfuck still ReSent-Message-ID: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Daniel wrote: > > I'm sorry to cause so much trouble. > Not at all; I'm interested in the results too. They're attached to this > email. I think they represent a victory for your compiler. It is never much > slower and sometimes significantly faster. In a few instances it is really > dramatically faster; these are instances of especially non-optimized > brainfuck, so they leave more opportunity for improvement. (For instance, > compare the three versions of rot13 tested.) Wow! Thank you for the great work! (I probably should add your corrections also to the programs in the brainfuck archive, considering that the resulting programs are probably relatively standard brainfuck for passing both bfc and dbc. But the archive is getting to be an "add-only" archive - it would really be quite tedious to try to keep the old stuff up to date.) > Now, some notes on the test. Some of mine: - not surprisingly, most calculation-intensive programs seem to be much faster on bfc. However, there are exceptions. Maybe these programs dump brianfuck's "native" integer representation in favor of some representation of their own, e.g. to overcome byte size / loop overhead? - the above is especially true of some sorting programs. - programs that mostly move data around (like quines) are generally faster on dbc. - bfi.bf is surprisingly much in favor of bfc. Maybe because bfc optimises away [->[-]+<] (normalisation) and [... [-]] (if)? - the difference in prime.b is astounding, at least given that the difference in factor.b is quite small. Different internal repr.? - it's surprising life.b is so much faster on bfc. - times under 0.05 are not really usable for much (and not very reliable, either.) > -Obviously, for those programs that are not O(n) it would be good to check > how their speed varies with the size of data under both compilers. I may do > this in a while. After having the discussion with John Colagioia about complexity, I think this would be enlightening... :) > Oh, by the way. To get the brainfuck interpreter to work, the interpreted > program has to be terminated with an exclamation point; and text after that > is taken as input to the interpreted program. I only found this out by > examining the code; it might be wise to add that as a comment. (You have I never knew this myself. I don't think the program ever was accompanied with a proper usage message. :) > that program under two names in your archive: bfi.bf and Ha_BF.b. At least, > I think they're identical.) The thing was clearly written in BFM, and I > think sometime I'll rewrite it with the same functionality in BFW/OM and > compare speeds under both compilers as well as length of source code. What's BFW/OM? -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 25 15:34:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Xho5-0002Qn-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:33:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:33:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Xhnp-0002Qg-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:33:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:33:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Xhng-0002Qa-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:33:00 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6PCWrk26603 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:59 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g6PCWlI10927 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:47 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs X-Received: from glisan.hevanet.com (glisan.hevanet.com [198.5.254.5]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6PBQhk13119 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:26:50 +0300 X-Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6PBQdD08283 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 04:26:40 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 04:26:39 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still From: Daniel To: Panu A Kalliokoski Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3110415999_9507997_MIME_Part" ReSent-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:42 +0300 (EEST) ReSent-From: Panu A Kalliokoski ReSent-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi ReSent-Subject: Re: Brainfuck still ReSent-Message-ID: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3110415999_9507997_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable >> Which, the corrections to adapt programs to EOF->0? I very much hope tha= t >> will become standard, but I wouldn't take dbc as evidence given that I d= on't >> know if anyone other than myself has ever used it. >=20 > Hmm, good point. Though I think I've seen more than five implementations > that adopt EOF->0. Excellent. I'll submit those and other things soon probably, then. >>> brianfuck's "native" integer representation in favor of some >>> representation of their own, e.g. to overcome byte size / loop overhead= ? >> Possibly. At least fib.b and factor.b store one (decimal) digit per byte= . >=20 > So my guess was correct. By the way, how do you analyse the programs - do > you just read them or do you use some tools for analysis? A debugger? Just read them, though I add line breaks and indentation to help. I did an implementation a while ago called qdb (quick and dirty brainfuck) that had the # debug command but I've hardly used it. In debugging my own stuff I just use desk checking and looking at the results and more desk checking if necessary. >> bfi.bf, though I'm not sure now. Maybe the right way to put it is that t= here >> is some functionality that could not be coded in brainfuck without using= so >> many loops and repetitions of loops as these programs use, and programs = with >> that functionality are inevitably going to be candidates for your compil= er >> and hopeless on mine; but that the functionality of these programs is NO= T >> functionality that requires this many loops &c.--so these programs are >=20 > I think this coding style is a result of every tutorial saying things lik= e > "to add two numbers, you use [>+<-]", presupposing it's OK to use the > "native" representation for integers. That's part of it. In addition to inefficient ways to store numbers there are also of course inefficient ways to compare numbers, inefficient ways to move around, and so on. E.g. compare [>>>>>](do stuff)<<<<<[<<<<<] to say [-[>>>>>+<<<<<-]>+[>>>>>+<<<<<-]>>>>](do stuff)>[-[<<<<<+>>>>>-]<<<<<] (Maybe call the former the "breadcrumb" technique, after Hansel and Gretel? A compromise more faithful to the story would be[-[>>>>>+<<<<<-]+>>>>>](do stuff)<<<<<[<<<<<]) In faase's case, I have the > impression that he's more interested in correctness than real-world > efficiency, being a mathematician (he's also advocating arbitrary-length > integers as cell contents). My compiler is specifically designed to > optimise this abstract style of coding. Right; and though my tastes are different I can see the sense in that. > However, if bf programs written in this way _can_ be made relatively > efficient - through the mechanisms employed by bfc, for example - it make= s > me feel that hand-optimising bf (by choosing custom internal > representations) is mostly a waste of time. But we do lose most of the > beauty of brainfuck - maybe we should say, "real bf programmers do not > rely on optimisations" :) :) Hm, "beauty"--that might be the key. Nobody would write a program in brainfuck if it had to run fast for practical reasons, so the difference between people who set out to write a brainfuck program to do X and the people who set out to write a concise and/or efficient brainfuck program to do X may be that the latter are viewing it as an art form. Of course in som= e instances like the search for the second-shortest quine it's also a part of the challenge of programming in brainfuck. (People like brainfuck for different reasons--its difficulty, its elegance, its theoretical interest as one of the simpler Turing-complete languages-- and they likewise have different aims when programming in it.) > Of course, if we really had a brainfuck machine, I reckon the > hand-optimised programs would outperform "abstract style" programs hands > on. Right; but such a machine would be just another toy, no? It wouldn't vaguel= y compete with a standard computer, would it? >> (I think my feelings about efficiency are at least thirty years out of d= ate. >> Rationally I grant that the top priorities should be having the code wor= k, >> having it be comprehensible so you can tell that it works, and having it= not >> cost the programmer too much time or stress. Rationally I'll grant that = it >=20 > Who can say what are the top priorities when writing bf code? Maybe I'm > only making things worse by providing an efficient method of executing > "uninteresting" bf code? Nah. People who would alter their coding style on the basis of practical considerations like that have presumably already given up on the language for the same reason. Anyway, when I say my feelings are out of date I suppose that applies less to brainfuck than to practical languages &c., because what I mean is that my feelings on the matter are impractical, whic= h is irrelevant when applied to coding styles within a language that isn't a practical choice to start with. >>> What's BFW/OM? >> Joke: "Brainfuck Without Macros". >=20 > Of course. :) By the way, I've done a preliminary version of my new brainfuck interpreter in brainfuck; quick test results attached, in same format as before, and as before giving M=FCller's hello world program to both. I may want to polish it a bit more before submitting it to the archive. > May I forward these postings to the lists? I think they could make > interesting reading for most subscribers. Sure. -Daniel. --MS_Mac_OE_3110415999_9507997_MIME_Part Content-type: multipart/appledouble; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3110415995_9490420_MIME_Part" --MS_Mac_OE_3110415995_9490420_MIME_Part Content-type: application/applefile; name="test results 2" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Content-disposition: attachment AAUWBwACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMAAAAJAAAAPgAAACAAAAADAAAAXgAAAA4AAAAC AAAAbAAAAX5URVhUUipjaAEAARwDQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHRlc3QgcmVzdWx0cyAy AAABAAAAAUwAAABMAAAAMgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEgACU1vbmFjbwAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYABAAtAA4C9gJ7AC0ADgL2Anu5ZSv6AAABcQAA AXEAAAAAAQAAAAEAAAABTAAAAEwAAAAyU09SVADiAIAAHAAyAABNUFNSAAAACgPt//8AAAAA Fd7oBA== --MS_Mac_OE_3110415995_9490420_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; name="test results 2"; x-mac-creator="522A6368"; x-mac-type="54455854" Content-disposition: attachment Content-transfer-encoding: base64 YmZpLmJmLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ1i ZmM6DQ1yZWFsIDAuMDINdXNlciAwLjAxDXN5cyAwLjAxDQ1yZWFsIDAuMDINdXNlciAwLjAx DXN5cyAwLjAxDWRiYzoNDXJlYWwgMC41Mg11c2VyIDAuNTENc3lzIDAuMDANDXJlYWwgMC41 Mg11c2VyIDAuNTANc3lzIDAuMDANDWRiZmkyLmItLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDWJmYzoNDXJlYWwgMC4wMQ11c2VyIDAuMDANc3lzIDAu MDENDXJlYWwgMC4wMQ11c2VyIDAuMDENc3lzIDAuMDANZGJjOg0NcmVhbCAwLjAwDXVzZXIg MC4wMA1zeXMgMC4wMA0NcmVhbCAwLjAxDXVzZXIgMC4wMQ1zeXMgMC4wMA0N --MS_Mac_OE_3110415995_9490420_MIME_Part-- --MS_Mac_OE_3110415999_9507997_MIME_Part-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 25 15:34:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XhoD-0002R3-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:33:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:33:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XhnV-0002QV-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XhnM-0002QP-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:40 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6PCWdk26482 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:39 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g6PCWYF10875 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:34 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:46:53 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: Daniel Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ReSent-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:30 +0300 (EEST) ReSent-From: Panu A Kalliokoski ReSent-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi ReSent-Subject: Re: Brainfuck still ReSent-Message-ID: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Daniel wrote: > > Wow! Thank you for the great work! (I probably should add your corrections > > also to the programs in the brainfuck archive, considering that the > > resulting programs are probably relatively standard brainfuck for passing > > both bfc and dbc. > Which, the corrections to adapt programs to EOF->0? I very much hope that > will become standard, but I wouldn't take dbc as evidence given that I don't > know if anyone other than myself has ever used it. Hmm, good point. Though I think I've seen more than five implementations that adopt EOF->0. > > brianfuck's "native" integer representation in favor of some > > representation of their own, e.g. to overcome byte size / loop overhead? > Possibly. At least fib.b and factor.b store one (decimal) digit per byte. So my guess was correct. By the way, how do you analyse the programs - do you just read them or do you use some tools for analysis? A debugger? > bfi.bf, though I'm not sure now. Maybe the right way to put it is that there > is some functionality that could not be coded in brainfuck without using so > many loops and repetitions of loops as these programs use, and programs with > that functionality are inevitably going to be candidates for your compiler > and hopeless on mine; but that the functionality of these programs is NOT > functionality that requires this many loops &c.--so these programs are I think this coding style is a result of every tutorial saying things like "to add two numbers, you use [>+<-]", presupposing it's OK to use the "native" representation for integers. In faase's case, I have the impression that he's more interested in correctness than real-world efficiency, being a mathematician (he's also advocating arbitrary-length integers as cell contents). My compiler is specifically designed to optimise this abstract style of coding. However, if bf programs written in this way _can_ be made relatively efficient - through the mechanisms employed by bfc, for example - it makes me feel that hand-optimising bf (by choosing custom internal representations) is mostly a waste of time. But we do lose most of the beauty of brainfuck - maybe we should say, "real bf programmers do not rely on optimisations" :) Of course, if we really had a brainfuck machine, I reckon the hand-optimised programs would outperform "abstract style" programs hands on. > (I think my feelings about efficiency are at least thirty years out of date. > Rationally I grant that the top priorities should be having the code work, > having it be comprehensible so you can tell that it works, and having it not > cost the programmer too much time or stress. Rationally I'll grant that it Who can say what are the top priorities when writing bf code? Maybe I'm only making things worse by providing an efficient method of executing "uninteresting" bf code? > > What's BFW/OM? > Joke: "Brainfuck Without Macros". Of course. :) May I forward these postings to the lists? I think they could make interesting reading for most subscribers. -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 25 15:34:57 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XhoA-0002Qs-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:33:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:33:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Xhmz-0002QN-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Xhmr-0002QH-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:09 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6PCW7k26209 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:08 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g6PCW3h10744 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:32:03 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs X-Received: from glisan.hevanet.com (glisan.hevanet.com [198.5.254.5]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6O1smk01260 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 04:54:57 +0300 X-Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6O1sfB28353 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:54:41 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:54:37 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still From: Daniel To: Panu A Kalliokoski Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ReSent-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:31:58 +0300 (EEST) ReSent-From: Panu A Kalliokoski ReSent-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi ReSent-Subject: Re: Brainfuck still ReSent-Message-ID: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >> Not at all; I'm interested in the results too. They're attached to this >> email. I think they represent a victory for your compiler. It is never much >> slower and sometimes significantly faster. In a few instances it is really >> dramatically faster; these are instances of especially non-optimized >> brainfuck, so they leave more opportunity for improvement. (For instance, >> compare the three versions of rot13 tested.) > > Wow! Thank you for the great work! (I probably should add your corrections > also to the programs in the brainfuck archive, considering that the > resulting programs are probably relatively standard brainfuck for passing > both bfc and dbc. Which, the corrections to adapt programs to EOF->0? I very much hope that will become standard, but I wouldn't take dbc as evidence given that I don't know if anyone other than myself has ever used it. But the archive is getting to be an "add-only" archive - > it would really be quite tedious to try to keep the old stuff up to date.) > >> Now, some notes on the test. > > Some of mine: > - not surprisingly, most calculation-intensive programs seem to be much > faster on bfc. However, there are exceptions. Maybe these programs dump > brianfuck's "native" integer representation in favor of some > representation of their own, e.g. to overcome byte size / loop overhead? Possibly. At least fib.b and factor.b store one (decimal) digit per byte. Prime.b uses the "native" format, and behold, prime.b is one of those in which there are stunning speed differences. (Of course, prime.b also does things like make up a bunch of ascii values independently, including the same value three times--apparently he hadn't yet had the thought that informed 'um-hello.b'--and use nested loops to multiply by ten instead of a '[>++++++++++<-]'. And more importantly it uses a very naive algorithm. I'm wondering how one using even just say the sieve of Eratosthenes would do.) > - the above is especially true of some sorting programs. Hmm? Which part? The two that I noticed are roughly the same speed on both implementations, but I didn't see that either used any special representation other than the bytes they were given. > - programs that mostly move data around (like quines) are generally faster > on dbc. > - bfi.bf is surprisingly much in favor of bfc. Maybe because bfc optimises > away [->[-]+<] (normalisation) and [... [-]] (if)? Could be. A lot of bfi.bf also consists of plain loops like [>+>>+<<<-]. It uses a huge amount of code in getting things done, which looks very much like the result of being written in Faase's macro system and not originally in straight brainfuck. This would give both your compiler and gcc lots of opportunities for improvement. Or at least that was my first guess. > - the difference in prime.b is astounding, at least given that the > difference in factor.b is quite small. Different internal repr.? Probably--as mentioned above. > - it's surprising life.b is so much faster on bfc. It surprised me too. I put it down to the program's inefficiency, as with bfi.bf, though I'm not sure now. Maybe the right way to put it is that there is some functionality that could not be coded in brainfuck without using so many loops and repetitions of loops as these programs use, and programs with that functionality are inevitably going to be candidates for your compiler and hopeless on mine; but that the functionality of these programs is NOT functionality that requires this many loops &c.--so these programs are evitably candidates for your compiler and hopeless on mine, in that they could be rewritten, and in the case of bfi I'm going to try this as an experiment. (I think my feelings about efficiency are at least thirty years out of date. Rationally I grant that the top priorities should be having the code work, having it be comprehensible so you can tell that it works, and having it not cost the programmer too much time or stress. Rationally I'll grant that it makes no sense for a programmer to worry about speed when even slow code runs fast enough given modern machines and compilers. But intuitively and temperamentally I find this hard to accept; and I tend to treat human time and effort, and my own in particular, as though they were not finite and indeed very limited resources.) > - times under 0.05 are not really usable for much (and not very reliable, > either.) ...and irrelevant even if they were reliable. >> -Obviously, for those programs that are not O(n) it would be good to check >> how their speed varies with the size of data under both compilers. I may do >> this in a while. > > After having the discussion with John Colagioia about complexity, I think > this would be enlightening... :) > >> Oh, by the way. To get the brainfuck interpreter to work, the interpreted >> program has to be terminated with an exclamation point; and text after that >> is taken as input to the interpreted program. I only found this out by >> examining the code; it might be wise to add that as a comment. (You have > > I never knew this myself. I don't think the program ever was accompanied > with a proper usage message. :) Right. I tried it quite a while ago, couldn't get it to work, and gave up on it. It's only recently, in conjunction with this test, that I picked through the code enough to find out what I'd been missing. >> that program under two names in your archive: bfi.bf and Ha_BF.b. At least, >> I think they're identical.) The thing was clearly written in BFM, and I >> think sometime I'll rewrite it with the same functionality in BFW/OM and >> compare speeds under both compilers as well as length of source code. > > What's BFW/OM? Joke: "Brainfuck Without Macros". -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 25 16:09:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XiMx-0002lG-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:09:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:09:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XiMa-0002lA-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:09:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:08:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XiMQ-0002l0-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:08:55 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.165 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:08:32 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:07:24 +0100 Message-ID: <000401c233dc$3c7ecd80$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc ~| I never knew this myself. I don't think the program ever was ~| accompanied ~| with a proper usage message. :) I had never seen this. It means doing some serious rewriting of my interpreter and compressor. I wonder how much longer it will become... david From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 25 16:11:38 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XiP1-0002m8-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:11:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:11:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XiOp-0002m0-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:11:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:11:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XiOe-0002lr-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:11:12 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6PDB8D09670 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 06:11:09 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 06:11:09 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3110422269_9885068_MIME_Part" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3110422269_9885068_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > I'm sorry to cause so much trouble. Not at all; I'm interested in the results too. They're attached to this email. I think they represent a victory for your compiler. It is never much slower and sometimes significantly faster. In a few instances it is really dramatically faster; these are instances of especially non-optimized brainfuck, so they leave more opportunity for improvement. (For instance, compare the three versions of rot13 tested.) Now, some notes on the test. -Obviously, for those programs that are not O(n) it would be good to check how their speed varies with the size of data under both compilers. I may do this in a while. -The first two entries per brainfuck program are run through your compiler, then run through gcc -O3, then executed and timed. Compilation time is not taken into account. The first run goes to /dev/null, the second to a text file. The third and fourth entries are the newer version of my compiler, whose output is marginally slower than that of the old one, but cleaner and safer in several respects. Again, the third is to /dev/null and the fourth to a text file. This explains much of the disparity in times that should otherwise be identical, but there is some variation left which is presumabl= y due to chance. -The inputs were from files and I tried to make appropriate choices. I fed the brainfuck interpreter Urban M=FCller's hello world program. I gave the cs= s descrambler one of the quines, which happened to be perceived as a css bloc= k (I had to try a few to find one that worked, since the program checks for a flag). I gave the life program the example from its author's web page, a repeating form with a period of 8 generations. I had factor.b factor 798243294730, which factors into 2, 5, 7, 104693, and 108923. I gave the html converter a file with two repetitions of every ASCII and extended-ASCI= I character. Brainfuck programs that needed elements larger than bytes, I tested within the limits where they worked on both compilers: I tested prime.b on primes up to 255, had atoi convert "240", and had pi16.bf output 4 digits of pi. One that depended on the elements being bytes, I threw out; I also threw out bfc because I couldn't get it to work. -Where necessary, I made the trivial changes required to get programs in line with the EOF->0 convention. -I had to modify my programs fib.b and random.b slightly to provide means o= f termination other than hitting control-c or waiting for a segmentation fault. I had each output 1002 values. I may give you the modified versions for the archive after I make sure I'm satisfied with their concision and general approach. -Most of the programs have the same names as in the archive, but some do no= t or are not in the archive. If you have questions about what any of the programs mentioned are, or any other aspect of the tests, ask me. Oh, by the way. To get the brainfuck interpreter to work, the interpreted program has to be terminated with an exclamation point; and text after that is taken as input to the interpreted program. I only found this out by examining the code; it might be wise to add that as a comment. (You have that program under two names in your archive: bfi.bf and Ha_BF.b. At least, I think they're identical.) The thing was clearly written in BFM, and I think sometime I'll rewrite it with the same functionality in BFW/OM and compare speeds under both compilers as well as length of source code. -Daniel. --MS_Mac_OE_3110422269_9885068_MIME_Part Content-type: multipart/appledouble; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3110220617_2982710_MIME_Part" --MS_Mac_OE_3110220617_2982710_MIME_Part Content-type: application/applefile; name="test results" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Content-disposition: attachment AAUWBwACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMAAAAJAAAAPgAAACAAAAADAAAAXgAAAAwAAAAC AAAAagAAAX5URVhUUipjaAEAABwDQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHRlc3QgcmVzdWx0cwAA AQAAAAFMAAAATAAAADIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABIAAlNb25hY28AAAAA 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16:18:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:18:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XiVO-0002rH-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:18:10 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6PDI7D09856 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 06:18:08 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 06:18:08 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000401c233dc$3c7ecd80$a500000a@td165> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > > ~| I never knew this myself. I don't think the program ever was > ~| accompanied > ~| with a proper usage message. :) > > I had never seen this. It means doing some serious rewriting of > my interpreter and compressor. I wonder how much longer it will > become... Wait a second, why do you have to rewrite anything? This requiring a ! to terminate the brainfuck program is strictly a feature of Frans Faase's brainfuck interpreter written in brainfuck, and of my new imitation of same, not any kind of general feature of brainfuck. Most brainfuck implementations do not require any special character to mark the end of the program. Let's keep it that way. (Faase's only needs it because it's written in brainfuck, which has only one input stream, which means both the code to be interpreted and the input to send to that code must come in on the same stream so they need to be separated somehow so they can be told apart.) -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 25 16:42:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Xisf-00031e-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:42:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:42:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Xis9-00031U-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:41:41 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:41:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Xirz-00031O-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:41:32 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.165 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:41:13 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:40:12 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c233e0$cd94b100$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc ~| > ~| > ~| I never knew this myself. I don't think the program ever was ~| > ~| accompanied ~| > ~| with a proper usage message. :) ~| > ~| > I had never seen this. It means doing some serious rewriting of ~| > my interpreter and compressor. I wonder how much longer it will ~| > become... ~| ~| Wait a second, why do you have to rewrite anything? This ~| requiring a ! to ~| terminate the brainfuck program is strictly a feature of ~| Frans Faase's ~| brainfuck interpreter written in brainfuck, and of my new ~| imitation of same, ~| not any kind of general feature of brainfuck. Most brainfuck ~| implementations ~| do not require any special character to mark the end of the ~| program. Let's ~| keep it that way. (Faase's only needs it because it's ~| written in brainfuck, ~| which has only one input stream, which means both the code ~| to be interpreted ~| and the input to send to that code must come in on the same ~| stream so they ~| need to be separated somehow so they can be told apart.) Thank god for that. I hadn't seen the rest of the correspondence (Its still comming in, and out of order for some reason...) ;) david. PS I'll refrain from blabbing till the thing has all arrived and dutily read. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Jul 25 23:53:25 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XpaJ-0005dg-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:51:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:51:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XpXw-0005dR-00; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:49:16 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:49:08 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XpXk-0005dL-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:49:06 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6PKn1Y24006 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:49:01 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:48:55 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000701c233e0$cd94b100$a500000a@td165> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Thank god for that. I hadn't seen the rest of the correspondence > (Its still comming in, and out of order for some reason...) ;) These letters were sent back and forth over a period of some days, and have been reposted because they might be of interest to people. As a bit of background information, my "dbc" compiler mentioned in them produces executables only for Sun machines, and does fairly direct translation of series of identical instructions (i.e. it will translate say ++++++++ or ]]]]]]]]]] into a single short series of machine instructions), but no more global optimization; the original question was how the speed of the executables produced would compare with that of those produced by Panu Kalliokoski's "bfc" compiler, combined with gcc. The version of dbc used is a transitional version between 1.0 and what I plan to call 1.1, so it's not available on the archive. > PS I'll refrain from blabbing till the thing has all arrived and > dutily read. No problem. I think the relevant parts of the exchange are all posted now. -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 26 04:24:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Xtq4-0007Sk-00; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 04:24:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 26 Jul 2002 04:24:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17XtpG-0007Se-00; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 04:23:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 26 Jul 2002 04:23:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Xtp6-0007SY-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 04:23:16 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6Q1NDs13407 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2002 18:23:13 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 18:23:08 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000701c233e0$cd94b100$a500000a@td165> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Now I'm watching my interpreter interpret itself interpreting my fibonacci program. It takes a minute to get from 9227465 to 14930352. Very relaxing in a way. :) -Daniel. (The goal of science is to describe the formal structure of the physical universe; the underlying details of the implementation are anyone's guess.) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Jul 26 14:23:33 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Y3Ba-000B65-00; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:23:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:22:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Y3B2-000B5y-00; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:22:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:22:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mrwaynxd-new.lnk.telstra.net ([139.130.76.194] helo=gateway.michel.com.au) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Y3Ar-000B5s-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:22:22 +0300 Received: from ork (ork.michel.com.au [203.18.139.105]) by gateway.michel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g6QBM3519654 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:22:04 +1000 From: "Ryan Michel" To: Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:21:56 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Where would I find this bf interpreter written in bf? I can't seem to find the beginning of this thread!!! ryan check out my tinkerings at: http://www.geocities.com/psyopsmstr/ more to come -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Daniel Sent: Friday, 26 July 2002 11:23 AM To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still Now I'm watching my interpreter interpret itself interpreting my fibonacci program. It takes a minute to get from 9227465 to 14930352. Very relaxing in a way. :) -Daniel. (The goal of science is to describe the formal structure of the physical universe; the underlying details of the implementation are anyone's guess.) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 27 02:34:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17YEbF-000FFH-00; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 02:34:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 27 Jul 2002 02:34:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17YEa0-000FFA-00; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 02:33:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 27 Jul 2002 02:32:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17YEZq-000FF4-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 02:32:55 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6QNWmV10176 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:32:49 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:32:42 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Where would I find this bf interpreter written in bf? I'm still polishing it. I'll submit it to the brainfuck archive when I'm done--hopefully within a day or two. > I can't seem to find the beginning of this thread!!! It was begun in private; the earliest part that was posted to the list began with the line "> I'm sorry to cause so much trouble." -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 27 07:28:45 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17YJBv-000Hq1-00; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:28:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:28:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17YJBC-000Hpv-00; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:27:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:27:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17YJB2-000Hpp-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 07:27:36 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6R4RXV19019 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:27:34 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:27:28 -0700 Subject: [lang] New brainfuck interpreter in brainfuck From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >>>>>>>>>>+[-<, [>+<-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[>-<-[>+< -[- [-[-[-[-[-[-[-[<+++++>-[<+>-[<+>-[<+>-[<[-]>-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[<+++>- [<--->-[<++++>-[<[-]>-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[- [<+>- [<->-[<++>-[<-->[-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ]]]]] ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]<[>>->+<<]>>] <<+++++++++[<]> [ -[-[<+>-]<] >[ <<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>+ [ >[<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>+>-[<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>-->- [<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>+>-[<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>-]]]] <[>+<-]> ] ++<<<<<<<<--<[>>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<<-] ] >[ <++[>]>>[>>]<[>+<-]>[ [<+>-]<<[<<]<[<]<<<<<<<+ [ <[>>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<-<-[>>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<++<- [>>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<-<-[>>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<<-]]]] >[<+>-]< ] >>>>>>>>[>]>>[>>] ]<<[<<]<[<]<<<<<< ] >[[>]>>[>>]<<-<<[<<]<[<]+++<<<<<<] >[[>]>>[>>]+[<<]<[<]++++<<<<<] >[[>]>>[>>]<+<[<<]<[<]+++++<<<<] >[[>]>>[>>]<,<[<<]<[<]++++++<<<] >[[>]>>[>>]<-<[<<]<[<]+++++++<<] >[[>]>>[>>]<.<[<<]<[<]++++++++<] >[<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>-]> ] [Input a brainfuck program, then a !, then the input for the program. Memory requirements: program size plus twice the array size plus ten bytes. Daniel B. Cristofani (cristofd@hevanet.com)] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Jul 27 15:29:40 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17YQhP-000Kc1-00; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:29:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:29:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17YQgk-000Kbu-00; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:28:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:28:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17YQgY-000Kbo-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:28:39 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6RCSaV28577 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2002 05:28:36 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 05:28:31 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: New brainfuck interpreter in brainfuck From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc The latest version of the puppy, which is substantially shorter, is at http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~cristofd/dbfi.b. -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Jul 30 06:08:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ZNMQ-000LzJ-00; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:07:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:07:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ZNHs-000Lw4-00; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:03:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:02:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ZNHi-000Lvy-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:02:54 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g6U32oX07970 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 20:02:50 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 20:02:44 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck still From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3110817764_4362818_MIME_Part" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3110817764_4362818_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >> -Obviously, for those programs that are not O(n) it would be good to check >> how their speed varies with the size of data under both compilers. I may do >> this in a while. > > After having the discussion with John Colagioia about complexity, I think > this would be enlightening... :) And here the results are. The values labeled 0 through 5 mean different things in each case, of course: bertram-sort.bf: sort 2048 * x bytes of text. charcount.b: count 47180 * x bytes of text. factor.b: factor square of smallest prime number larger than 10000 * x. fib.b: calculate 4004 * x + 1 values. hanoi.b: solve for 5 * x disks. prime.b: find primes up to 50 * x. random.b: calculate 400 * x + 1 values. sort.bf: sort 2048 * x bytes of text. The other ones that aren't O(n) are linecount (skipped as analogous to charcount; both are parts of a brainfuck implementation of wc which I haven't finished) and the two brainfuck interpreters, which I'm not sure how to test systematically. I piped results for fib.b and hanoi.b to wc rather than saving them to files; I've exceeded my disk quota enough times already. In the cases of hanoi.b and prime.b I had to use 1 and not 0 in the "0" case, because the programs wouldn't run properly given a 0. Anyway, the two compilers look about equal wrt scaling properties. Tell me what you think though. -Daniel. --MS_Mac_OE_3110817764_4362818_MIME_Part Content-type: multipart/appledouble; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3110817760_4380588_MIME_Part" --MS_Mac_OE_3110817760_4380588_MIME_Part Content-type: application/applefile; name="test results 4" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Content-disposition: attachment AAUWBwACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMAAAAJAAAAPgAAACAAAAADAAAAXgAAAA4AAAAC AAAAbAAAAX5URVhUUipjaAEAAdwCwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHRlc3QgcmVzdWx0cyA0 AAABAAAAAUwAAABMAAAAMgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEgACU1vbmFjbwAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYABABIAYcCxgP0AEgBhwLGA/S5a0QBAAAU1AAA FNQAAAdlAQAAAAEAAAABTAAAAEwAAAAyU09SVABOAIAAHAAyAABNUFNSAAAACgPt//8AAAAA FlkpCA== 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helo=gateway.michel.com.au) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Zjq1-0005AC-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 06:07:50 +0300 Received: from ork (ork.michel.com.au [203.18.139.105]) by gateway.michel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g6V37f501694 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:07:42 +1000 From: "Ryan Michel" To: Subject: [lang] Nequam, my new language Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:08:04 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Come check out the specs for my soon to be started implemented language Nequam. Think Brainf***, Java, False and lisp/fourth mixed together in a big jumble of esoteric goodness. Nequam uses single character instructions (Brainf***), classes (sort of anyway, Java) and a stack based processing system (the others). It is being implemented in vc++ as sson as the specs get to that point where I can start. anyway tell me what you think. ryan "If at first you don't succeed, you must be a programmer" --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Jul 31 06:58:07 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Zkca-0005Sq-00; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 06:58:00 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 31 Jul 2002 06:57:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Zkb0-0005Sj-00; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 06:56:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 31 Jul 2002 06:56:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mrwaynxd-new.lnk.telstra.net ([139.130.76.194] helo=gateway.michel.com.au) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Zkar-0005Sd-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 06:56:14 +0300 Received: from ork (ork.michel.com.au [203.18.139.105]) by gateway.michel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g6V3u6501824 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:56:07 +1000 From: "Ryan Michel" To: Subject: [lang] Re: Nequam, my new language Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:56:29 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk X-list: misc i didn't include the url with the original e-mail so here it is: www.geocities.com/psyopsmstr/nequam.html ryan -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Ryan Michel Sent: Wednesday, 31 July 2002 1:08 PM To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Nequam, my new language Come check out the specs for my soon to be started implemented language Nequam. Think Brainf***, Java, False and lisp/fourth mixed together in a big jumble of esoteric goodness. Nequam uses single character instructions (Brainf***), classes (sort of anyway, Java) and a stack based processing system (the others). It is being implemented in vc++ as sson as the specs get to that point where I can start. anyway tell me what you think. ryan "If at first you don't succeed, you must be a programmer" --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 01 01:02:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17a1U6-000Cr9-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 00:58:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 01 Aug 2002 00:58:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17a1SQ-000Cqv-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 00:56:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 01 Aug 2002 00:56:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net ([207.69.200.157]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17a1SD-000Cqo-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 00:56:25 +0300 Received: from 1cust190.tnt1.princess-anne.va.da.uu.net ([67.200.147.190] helo=[192.168.1.9]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17a1Rz-00023E-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:56:16 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:58:17 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: Ted Goranson Subject: [lang] Language for Self-organization? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: tedg@alum.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: tedg@alum.mit.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I've been lurking here for a while. I wish I could wait until I were better informed on the issues, but I have a rather important report to do soon and hope that some mavens here can advise. The goal here is to create support for a large, interdisciplinary research program. The problem is to design a general methodology for self-organizing infrastructure for manufacturing enterprises. The scenario is to have thousands of small companies coming together, quickly integrating and optimizing to produce a complex product. The notion is to have agents represent three basic types of features: --the product features which represent customer value. Optimizing in this space produces a self-designed, self-optimized product. --the process features which represent how the product is made (and/or service delivered). Optimizing in this space produces a self-designed, self-optimized enterprise in terms of efficiency. --the "financial" and strategic metrics which guide corporate negotiation within market forces. Naturally, all these features need to be in the same features space and simultaneously trading. Naturally each of these subspaces and the subsumption space need to simultaneously accommodate introspective features. Naturally, the mechanics need to leverage existing methods in situation, group and category theories, which practically demands that the implementation language be functional. Because this is something that is envisioned to ride on top of the web and many existing infrastructures, it needs to "speak" objects. Because this is bottoms up, it needs to support "apparent determinism" at some level of abstraction. Practically that means you have mobile agents and aggregated local servers. I believe this is as root a language design problem. It would be the currently discussed "killer app" for Erlang, with new attention given to leveled monads. has anyone here had a look at the "semantically-informed, self-organization" problem from a language perspective? Best, Ted From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 01 11:43:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aBYA-000Hba-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:43:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:43:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aBXB-000HbD-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:42:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:42:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aBX0-000Hb7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:42:04 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.165 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:40:31 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] Re: Language for Self-organization? Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:40:41 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c23937$1f46bfb0$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc ... ~| ~| Naturally, the mechanics need to leverage existing methods in ~| situation, group and category theories, which practically demands ~| that the implementation language be functional. Because this is ~| something that is envisioned to ride on top of the web and many ~| existing infrastructures, it needs to "speak" objects. Because this ~| is bottoms up, it needs to support "apparent determinism" at some ~| level of abstraction. Practically that means you have mobile agents ~| and aggregated local servers. ~| ... sounds like plain *n?x to me... ... ~| has anyone here had a look at the "semantically-informed, ~| self-organization" problem from a language perspective? ... I'll ask my manager... he speaks like that :) dave. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 02 07:29:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aU2o-000PcF-00; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 07:28:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 02 Aug 2002 07:27:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aTzy-000Pc4-00; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 07:25:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 02 Aug 2002 07:25:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aTzo-000Pbv-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 07:25:00 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g724Oxk29588 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:24:59 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g724Ov709970 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:24:57 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:24:57 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Language for Self-organization? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Ted Goranson wrote: > I've been lurking here for a while. I wish I could wait until I were > better informed on the issues, but I have a rather important report > to do soon and hope that some mavens here can advise. The goal here > is to create support for a large, interdisciplinary research program. If you don't get too much advice (as I reckon) it might have something to do with the buzzword / well-defined concept ratio of the posting... > The problem is to design a general methodology for self-organizing > infrastructure for manufacturing enterprises. The scenario is to have Does not sound to me like a thing that is generalisable... of course, if you treat the manufacturers as rough oversimplisfications in the model, you might get some results that can give hints of how the network should be organised in reality, but social factors will often prove otherwise. Besides, if it's meant to be self-organising, why not just let the manufacturers organise themselves? That's what they are currrently doing, and with moderate success. If you ask me which is the simple most important thing for self-organisation is sufficient communication mechanisms between the parties involved. > optimizing to produce a complex product. The notion is to have agents > represent three basic types of features: Define agent. Define feature. > --the product features which represent customer value. Optimizing in > this space produces a self-designed, self-optimized product. > --the process features which represent how the product is made > (and/or service delivered). Optimizing in this space produces a > self-designed, self-optimized enterprise in terms of efficiency. > --the "financial" and strategic metrics which guide corporate > negotiation within market forces. I don't think this will be very useful information if you just want manufacturers to organise. I think you're going the wrong way if you first think how to do things (organise), then what to do (assessing the factors above). > and simultaneously trading. Naturally each of these subspaces and the > subsumption space need to simultaneously accommodate introspective > features. I read this to mean that the variables have interdependencies. > Naturally, the mechanics need to leverage existing methods in > situation, group and category theories, which practically demands > that the implementation language be functional. Because this is :) > something that is envisioned to ride on top of the web and many > existing infrastructures, it needs to "speak" objects. Because this > is bottoms up, it needs to support "apparent determinism" at some > level of abstraction. Practically that means you have mobile agents > and aggregated local servers. Just in case you're not joking, I'd like to point out that your words don't relate to each other. > I believe this is as root a language design problem. It would be the > currently discussed "killer app" for Erlang, with new attention given > to leveled monads. Yeah, but you could do it in COBOL as well. Not to forget YAGNI. > has anyone here had a look at the "semantically-informed, > self-organization" problem from a language perspective? Oh, many times. And trust me, after that you won't want to look back. > Best, Ted Panu From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 02 14:47:28 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aass-0002Of-00; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 14:46:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 02 Aug 2002 14:46:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aaqj-0002LN-00; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 14:44:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 02 Aug 2002 14:43:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from wells.tecc.co.uk ([195.217.37.90] helo=seatbooker.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aaqX-0002LH-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 14:43:54 +0300 Received: from basingstoke.tecc.co.uk (basingstoke.tecc.co.uk [195.217.37.75]) by seatbooker.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26755 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:43:35 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:43:35 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <200208021143.MAA26755@seatbooker.net> From: Mike Taylor To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-reply-to: (message from Panu A Kalliokoski on Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:49:34 +0300 (EEST)) Subject: [lang] Re: [Beatnik] Interpreter, samples References: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@seatbooker.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@seatbooker.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:49:34 +0300 (EEST) > From: Panu A Kalliokoski > > I vote for indeterminism with backtracking. I probably agree, but will change my mind later. :-) _/|_ _______________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "And what if none of their souls were saved? They went to their maker impeccably shaved" -- Steven Sondheim, "The Ballad of Sweeney Todd" From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 02 21:22:39 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ah3m-0004lj-00; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 21:21:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 02 Aug 2002 21:21:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ah1T-0004lE-00; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 21:19:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 02 Aug 2002 21:19:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mailout01.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.80]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ah1I-0004l8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 21:19:24 +0300 Received: from fwd08.sul.t-online.de by mailout01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17ah19-0000xU-0A; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:19:15 +0200 Received: from dreizehn (320072378593-0001@[217.0.87.150]) by fwd08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17ah16-2E1RzsC; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 20:19:12 +0200 From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) To: "ESOLANG" Subject: [lang] C++ as an esoteric programming language Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 20:21:58 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Sender: 320072378593-0001@t-dialin.net X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Is it just me, or does C++ suck pretty badly? Download "boost", a C++ template madness that is said to improve your programs. Compile a simple example (with, granted, VC6). Get 31 warnings like this (yes, it is *one* single warning): C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio\VC98\INCLUDE\utility(31) : warning C4786: 'boost::detail::find_param_continue::select,std::allocator > >,boost::detail::cons_type,std::allocator > const &>,boost::detail::cons_type,std::allocator > const *>,boost::detail::cons_type,boost::detail::cons_type,boost::detail::end_of_list> > > > >,boost::detail::iterator_category_tag>' : identifier was truncated to '255' characters in the debug information I can't help - this looks like something yer favourite "obfuscated language" couldn't do much better. If, at this point, you don't agree that C++s templates sucks *PRETTY BAD*, try a performance loop. Example code with "boost": string s = "This is, a test"; tokenizer<> tok(s); for(tokenizer<>::iterator beg=tok.begin(); beg!=tok.end();++beg) { const char* shit = beg->c_str(); } 100000 loops of that take 2609 ms. Move "string s" out of the loop, go down to 2300 ms. That is because there actually seems to be some alloc crap going on. My good old classlib I've been using for five years now: PString s("This is, a test"); PTokens tokens(s," "); for( DWORD i = 0; i < tokens.Count(); i++ ) { const char* shit = tokens[i]; } 100000 loops of that takes 1100 ms. Less code, and more readable (granted, to me who has been using that stuff some time). Move "PString s()" out, get 1100 ms. Because PString caches strings < 60 chars (trades memory for speed). Duh. Now try the same thing with strtok. It sure doesn't look so pretty: PString s("This is, a test"); // will create a copy of input string, because I know strtok messes that up char* token = strtok( s, " " ); while( token != NULL ) { const char* shit = token; token = strtok( NULL, " " ); } 100000 loops of that takes .... TADA: 200 ms. Yep, 200 ms vs. 2600 ms, for basically the same algorithm, in the same language. With the help of STL & boost & associates, in two or three years Java *will* be at one performance level with C++. Now, lets try that in Python. import win32api def test(): s0 = win32api.GetTickCount() i = 0 while i < 100000: for token in "This is, a test".split(): shit = token i += 1 elapsed = win32api.GetTickCount() - s0 print "Took %.2f" % elapsed Took 484 ms. Damn, I feel stupid now for my own C++ classes! From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 03 00:31:07 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ak0I-0005pH-00; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 00:30:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 03 Aug 2002 00:30:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ajye-0005p2-00; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 00:28:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 03 Aug 2002 00:28:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net ([207.69.200.60]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ajyJ-0005ow-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 00:28:31 +0300 Received: from 1cust141.tnt3.princess-anne.va.da.uu.net ([67.200.161.141] helo=[192.168.1.9]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ajxw-0003mG-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 17:28:08 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:31:28 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: Ted Goranson Subject: [lang] Re: Language for Self-organization? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: tedg@alum.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: tedg@alum.mit.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Ted Goranson wrote: >> I've been lurking here for a while. I wish I could wait until I were >> better informed on the issues, but I have a rather important report >> to do soon and hope that some mavens here can advise. The goal here >> is to create support for a large, interdisciplinary research program. > >If you don't get too much advice (as I reckon) it might have something to >do with the buzzword / well-defined concept ratio of the posting... Sorry about the buzzwords. Sometime they help, but I guess here not. > > The problem is to design a general methodology for self-organizing >> infrastructure for manufacturing enterprises. The scenario is to have > >Does not sound to me like a thing that is generalisable... of course, if >you treat the manufacturers as rough oversimplisfications in the model, >you might get some results that can give hints of how the network should >be organised in reality, but social factors will often prove otherwise. > >Besides, if it's meant to be self-organising, why not just let the >manufacturers organise themselves? That's what they are currrently doing, >and with moderate success. If you ask me which is the simple most >important thing for self-organisation is sufficient communication >mechanisms between the parties involved. The way complex manufacturing is organized now is by a top down, normative method. You still need Ford to make cars even though almost all the manufacturing and value is from smaller companies. (Incidentally, when you buy a Ford, most of your money goes to Ford for this organizational task. Self-organization would allow the smaller players to discard most of Ford.) There are a substantial number of studies that show the current way of organization has tremendous disadvantages beyond mere cost. > > optimizing to produce a complex product. The notion is to have agents >> represent three basic types of features: > >Define agent. Define feature. Agent means here what FIPA means . You may find JADE a good and common example. The general idea is to divide adventuresome concepts from conventional ones. "Agent" is one of the conventional ones, and so is... Feature. By this we mean the normal term of art in the product and process modeling community. Many people are surprised to learn that this type of modeling exceeds coding in the number of people and manhours involved and (by an order of magnitude) in both the cost and the costly screwups. Generally, the problem is one of merging these two communities ("coding" and modeling) and to use integrating techniques from each. Some specific ideas on merging features (which are logically structured, usually first class elements) have resulted from the International workshops which defined this problem. Happy to send the reports if you wish. A processing feature is an operation like drilling a hole. A project feature may be the hole. Other features in this scope are design features of coolness that make Nikes sell. > > --the product features which represent customer value. Optimizing in >> this space produces a self-designed, self-optimized product. >> --the process features which represent how the product is made >> (and/or service delivered). Optimizing in this space produces a >> self-designed, self-optimized enterprise in terms of efficiency. >> --the "financial" and strategic metrics which guide corporate >> negotiation within market forces. > >I don't think this will be very useful information if you just want >manufacturers to organise. I think you're going the wrong way if you first >think how to do things (organise), then what to do (assessing the factors >above). Well, trust me on this. The problem is widely recognized. I can debate it off-list if you wish. So much so that my query is based on a charter I have to (do very preliminary work for) design a research project. We have a strong enough roadmap, but I am intrigued at the approach to abstraction of this community. Language design to me is a matter of managing abstraction against specific goals. In fact, one rather large piece of this program has already begun with preliminary work toward a new (process) modeling language, UEML. The process modeling ontology language, PSL may be up for redefinition as well. The simple case of self-organization is knowing what you want to make and then attracting through selfish market forces the assets and integrated methods to do so. A more complex one is accommodating the fact that the target product -- and there fore the players -- changes. (This happens all the time in the weapons world that originally rolled over this problem.) A more complex and interesting self-organization is where the product defines itself, and the resources concurrently. > > and simultaneously trading. Naturally each of these subspaces and the >> subsumption space need to simultaneously accommodate introspective >> features. > >I read this to mean that the variables have interdependencies. The _features_ have interdependencies. I was hoping for a more sophisticated notion than variables. This problem is also well-understood in the self-organizing community and can be summarized thus: there is self-organization at the level of elementary particles, and of molecules, and of cells, and of organs, and of beings, and of societies. Each of these might be seen as self-organizing within itself, and also organizing -- even creating -- the next higher level. The features of each level are related in some way, but are different in basic ways. Is there a "language" that covers all these levels? > > Naturally, the mechanics need to leverage existing methods in >> situation, group and category theories, which practically demands >> that the implementation language be functional. Because this is > >:) > >> something that is envisioned to ride on top of the web and many >> existing infrastructures, it needs to "speak" objects. Because this > > is bottoms up, it needs to support "apparent determinism" at some > > level of abstraction. Practically that means you have mobile agents > > and aggregated local servers. > >Just in case you're not joking, I'd like to point out that your words >don't relate to each other. Well, I'll allow that you're not just jerking me around, if you allow that I'm not joking, just inarticulate and in over my head. I'll try to do better: If we develop a new infrastructure for the exchange of features and their translation and emergence, it must co-exist with existing infrastructures. Few observers believe the new "language" will be object oriented, but it must intimately interact with many that are. And many of those manage or generate features within the object paradigm. Another issue is the "apparent determinism" one. The type of self-organization expected is the ordinary type where some gross characteristics of the system can be predicted, but most characteristics are non-deterministic. But real businesses, even virtual businesses, need to be capitalized. And funders like predictability. Now even in the normal case, that predictability is illusory, but well-founded. What we need is a language whose types have an abstraction threshold beyond which the non-deterministic character is not seen. Today, this is often handled by one type of feature (drilling a hole) that is abstracted to a process-feature independent space like dollars (the cost of drilling that hole). Some similar threshold is needed. Does that help? > > I believe this is as root a language design problem. It would be the >> currently discussed "killer app" for Erlang, with new attention given >> to leveled monads. > >Yeah, but you could do it in COBOL as well. Not to forget YAGNI. > >> has anyone here had a look at the "semantically-informed, >> self-organization" problem from a language perspective? > >Oh, many times. And trust me, after that you won't want to look back. Why? Too hard? People too weird? Issues devolve to religious ones? Needs too radical a vision? Scary? I asked here because you guys don't strike me as wusses. > >> Best, Ted > >Panu Best, Ted -- Ted Goranson Advanced Enterprise Research Office From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 03 13:50:31 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17awSh-000B1U-00; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 13:48:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 03 Aug 2002 13:48:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17awSX-000B1O-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 13:48:33 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g73AjuK10277 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 13:45:56 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g736MVM06926 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 09:22:31 +0300 Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 09:22:31 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: misc & lang at esoteric.sange.fi Message-ID: <20020803092231.A6923@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello, list. I have been wondering lately, after receiving doubles of every message sent to lang, about the importance of the forwarding of lang-messages to misc. Do we really need this? I think that if someone wants lang, (s)he subscribes to it, otherwise only to misc (if there is any reason behind this). -- Thus spake Al. Andreou, ee4299 @ ee.teiath.gr . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 03 17:14:48 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17azfm-000CBY-00; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 17:14:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 03 Aug 2002 17:14:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17azeB-000C7r-00; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 17:12:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 03 Aug 2002 17:12:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from c3po.skynet.be ([195.238.3.237]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17azdw-000C7l-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 17:12:32 +0300 Received: from decis.be (93.208-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be [194.78.208.93]) by c3po.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id g73ECF720697 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 16:12:15 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Received: from decis.be ([192.168.0.20]) by decis.be ([194.78.208.93]) with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v6.0.3.R) for ; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 16:08:02 +0200 Message-ID: <3D4BE601.2FA13553@decis.be> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 16:17:37 +0200 From: Frederic van der Plancke Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: C++ as an esoteric programming language References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by c3po.skynet.be id g73ECF720697 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Gerson Kurz wrote: >=20 > Is it just me, or does C++ suck pretty badly? Download "boost", a C++ > template madness that is said to improve your programs. Compile a simpl= e > example (with, granted, VC6). Get 31 warnings like this (yes, it is *on= e* > single warning): I know that VC warning. And these kilometric error messages...= (note that O'Caml error messages can get kilometric too, for similar rea= sons: types with long names). That warning comes from a MSVC weakness: its debugging system only takes = into account 255 character of the name of a type. Harmless unless you're = inspecting values of said types in the debugger (such inspection may cras= h MSVC 5). The warning can be silented using #pragma macros, see your com= piler docs... (I don't remember the exact syntax.) Of course, it could be nice if compiler could abbreviate the error messag= es (ie in C++ or OCaml, essentially the type names) down to what is stric= tly necessary to understand the source of the error. >=20 > C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio\VC98\INCLUDE\utility(31) : war= ning > C4786: > 'boost::detail::find_param_continue::select detail::cons_type char_traits ar>,std::allocator > > >,boost::detail::cons_type _tag,std::basic_string,std::allocator= > > const &>,boost::detail::cons_type ::pointer_tag,std::basic_string,std::alloca= tor har> > const > *>,boost::detail::cons_type _category_tag,std::forward_iterator_tag>,boost::detail::cons_type ail::con > s_type,boost::detail::end_of_li= st> > > > > >,boost::detail::iterator_category_tag>' : identifier was truncated= to > '255' characters in the debug information >=20 > I can't help - this looks like something yer favourite "obfuscated lang= uage" > couldn't do much better. If, at this point, you don't agree that C++s > templates sucks *PRETTY BAD*,=20 I don't agree ;-) I like templates. Try programming without templates (or without parametri= c polymorphism in OCaml), you'll have other horror stories to tell... > try a performance loop. Example code with > "boost": >=20 > string s =3D "This is, a test"; > tokenizer<> tok(s); > for(tokenizer<>::iterator beg=3Dtok.begin(); beg!=3Dtok.end();++beg) > { > const char* shit =3D beg->c_str(); > } >=20 > 100000 loops of that take 2609 ms. Move "string s" out of the loop, go = down > to 2300 ms. That is because there actually seems to be some alloc crap = going > on. That may be boost's (or std's) fault rather than template's fault... Not all boost libraries are top-quality, IMO. (At least one I had to disc= ard, because of hardcoded size limits, yurk. Hard-coded size limits in XX= I-th century libraries, that should no longer exist ! (Or at least, not b= elow something like 2^32 items...)) (And if MSVC had no silly hardcoded l= imit on debugger symbols... for instance if they used std::string instead= of ... it would have no warning C4786 !) Now, I don't know what's exactly under PString & PTokens &co do so I can'= t tell what's slowing down your example. >=20 > My good old classlib I've been using for five years now: >=20 > PString s("This is, a test"); > PTokens tokens(s," "); > for( DWORD i =3D 0; i < tokens.Count(); i++ ) > { > const char* shit =3D tokens[i]; > } >=20 > 100000 loops of that takes 1100 ms. Less code, and more readable (grant= ed, > to me who has been using that stuff some time). Move "PString s()" out,= get > 1100 ms. Because PString caches strings < 60 chars (trades memory for > speed). Duh. That looks like a dangerous policy... it doesn't cache forever all smalls= strings it gets into, I hope ? And what about this (just wondering how much Count() costs) ? ] const int n =3D tokens.Count(); ] for( DWORD i =3D 0; i < n; i++ ) ] ... >=20 > Now try the same thing with strtok. It sure doesn't look so pretty: >=20 > PString s("This is, a test"); // will create a copy of input strin= g, > because I know strtok messes that up > char* token =3D strtok( s, " " ); > while( token !=3D NULL ) > { > const char* shit =3D token; > token =3D strtok( NULL, " " ); > } >=20 > 100000 loops of that takes .... TADA: 200 ms. Yep, 200 ms vs. 2600 ms, = for > basically the same algorithm, in the same language. With the help of ST= L & > boost & associates, in two or three years Java *will* be at one perform= ance > level with C++. Well, if Python already beats C++, then sure Java does ! >=20 > Now, lets try that in Python. [...] > Took 484 ms. Damn, I feel stupid now for my own C++ classes! Hehe... sure Python uses strtok internally ! Fr=E9d=E9ric vdP From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 03 21:38:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b3mn-000DcB-00; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 21:37:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 03 Aug 2002 21:37:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b3m7-000Dc5-00; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 21:37:15 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 03 Aug 2002 21:37:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [217.78.76.138] (helo=ok62952.com) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b3lJ-000Dby-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 21:36:32 +0300 From: "DR SMITH KUMANI" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:39:06 +0200 Subject: [lang] I NEED YOUR COOPERATION X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6900 DM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dr_smithkumani@email.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dr_smithkumani@email.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc FROM=3ADR=2E SMITH KUMANI=2E ACCOUNT DEPARTMENT=2C UNION BANK OF NIGERIA PLC=2E MARINA- BRANCH=2C LAGOS=2E=2E =2E DEAR SIR=2C RE=3ATRANSFER OF THE SUM OF US$20=2E5M DOLLARS INTO YOUR ACCOUNT=2E FIRST=2CI MUST SOLICIT YOUR CONFIDENCE IN THIS TRANSACTION=2ETHIS IS BY VIRTUE OF IT'S NATURE AS BEING UTTERLY CONFIDENTIAL AND TOP SECRET=2ETHOUGH I KNOW THAT A TRANSACTION OF THIS MAGNITUDE WILL MAKE ANYONE APPREHENSIVE AND WORRIED=2EBUT I AM ASSURING YOU THAT ALL WILL BE WELL AT THE END OF THE DAY=2E WE HAVE DECIDED TO CONTACT YOU THROUGH THIS MEDIUM DUE TO THE URGENCY OF THIS TRANSACTION AS WE HAVE BEEN RELIABLY INFORMED OF YOUR DISCRETENESS AND ABILITY=2E LET ME START BY INTRODUCING MYSELF TO YOU=2E I AM DR SMITH KUMANI=2C AN ACCOUNTANT WITH THE UNION BANK OF NIGERIA PLC BRANCH OFFICE LAGOS=2EI CAME TO KNOW ABOUT YOU IN MY PRIVATE SEARCH FOR A RELIABLE AND REPUTABLE PERSON TO HANDLE THIS CONFIDENTIAL TRANSACTION AS WE ARE STILL IN ACTIVE SERVICE=2E THE PROPOSITION=2E AN AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL=2CLATE ENGINEER BUTCH R=2EMIGUEL=2CAN OIL MERCHANT=2FCONTRACTOR WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OF NIGERIA=2CUNTIL HIS DEATH THREE YEARS AGO IN A GHASTLY AIR CRASH IN AN EGYPT AIR=2C FLIGHT 990 WHICH OCCURED ON 2ND NOVEMBER 1999=2CBANKED WITH US HERE ATUNION BANK OF NIGERIA MARINA BRANCH LAGOS=2CAND HAD A CLOSSING BALANCE OF US$20=2E5M=28TWENTY MILLION FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND UNITED STATES DOLLARS=29IN A FIXED DEPOSIT ACCOUNT=2CWHICH THE BANK UNQUESTIONABLY EXPECTS IT TO BE CLAIMED BY ANY AVAILABLE FOREIGN NEXT-OF-KIN TO THE LATE BENEFICIARY OR ALTERNATIVELY BE DONATED TO A DISCREDITED TRUST FUND FOR THE PURCHASE OF ARMS AND AMMUNITIONS AT THE MILITARY WAR COLLEGE IN KADUNA STATE HERE IN NORTHERN NIGERIA=2E SEQUEL TO THIS=2CFERVENT VALUABLE EFFORTS WERE MADE BY UNION BANK OF NIGERIA TO GET IN TOUCH WITH ANY OF THE MIGUEL'S FAMILY OR RELATIVES BUT PROVED TO NO AVAIL=2EIT IS BECAUSE OF THE PERCEIVED POSSIBILITY OF NOT BEING ABLE TO LOCATE ANY OF THE LATE ENGR=2EBUTCH R=2E MIGUEL'S NEXT-OF-KIN=28HE HAD NO KNOWN WIFE AND CHILDREN=29 THAT THE MANAGEMENT UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF OUR HONOURABLE CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS=2CMAJOR-GENERAL KALU UKE KALU=28rtd=29 THAT AN ARRANGEMENT BE MADE FOR THE FUND TO BE DECLARED=22UN-CLAIMABLE=22 AND SUBSIQUENTLY BE DONATED TO THE TRUST FUND FOR THE PURCHASE OF ARMS AND AMMUNITON TO FURTHER ENHANCE THE COURSE OF WAR IN AFRICA AND THE WORLD IN GENERAL=2EIN ORDER TO AVERT THIS CRUDE AND NEGATIVE DEVELOPMENT=2CSOME OF MY TRUSTED COLLEAGUES AND I NOW SEEK YOUR PERMISSION TO HAVE YOU STAND AS THE NEXT-OF-KIN TO LATE ENGR=2E BUTCH R=2EMIGUEL=2C SO THAT THE FUND US$20=2E5M WOULD BE RELEASED AND PAID INTO YOUR ACCOUNT AS THE BENEFICIARY'S NEXT-OF KIN=2EALL DOCUMENTS AND PROVES TO ENABLE YOU RECIEVE THIS FUND WILL BECAREFULLY WORKED OUT AND MORESO AS PROFESSIONAL BANKERS=2C WE ARE ASSURING YOU OF 100%RISK-FREE INVOLVEMENT=2E YOUR SHARE STAYS WHILE THE REST WILL BE FOR MYSELF AND MY COLLEAGUES FOR INVESTMENT PURPOSES IN YOUR COUNTRY=2E NOTE THAT THIS TRANSACTION WILL STRICTLY BE BASED ON THE FOLLOWING TERMS AND CONDITIONS AS I HAVE STATED BELOW=2C AS WE HAVE HEARD CONFIRMED CASES OF BUSINESS ASSOCIATES RUNNING AWAY WITH FUNDS KEPT IN THEIR CUSTODY WHEN IT IS FINALLY REMITTED INTO THIER BANK ACCOUNTS=2ETHIS IS WHY WE HAVE DECIDED THAT THIS TRANSACTION WILL BE BASED ON THE FOLLOWING=3A- =28a=29 OUR CONVICTION OF YOUR TRANSPARENCY=2C HONESTY AND DILIGENCE=2E =28b=29 THAT YOU WILL TREAT THIS TRANSACTION WITH UTMOST SECRECY AND CONFIDENTIALITY =28c=29 YOU MUST BE READY TO PRODUCE US WITH ENOUGH INFORMATION ABOUT YOURSELF TO PUT OUR MINDS AT REST=2E =28d=29 THAT UPON RECIEPT OF THE FUND=2CYOU WILL PROMPTLY RELEASE OUR SHARE ON DEMAND AFTER YOU HAVE DEDUCTED YOUR 20%=2E YOUR URGENCY WILL BE HIGHLY APPRECIATED AS WE ARE ALREADY BEHIND SCHEDULE FOR THIS FINANCIAL QUATER=2E IF THIS PROPOSAL IS ALRIGHT BY YOU=2CTHEN KINDLY GET TOME IMMEDIATELY ON MY EMAIL ADDRESS=2EPLEASE TO FACILITATE THIS TRANSACTION=2CYOU ARE REQUESTED TO FORWARD WITH DELAY YOUR RELIABLE BANK ACCOUNT WHERE YOU WOULD WANT THIS FUND TO BE TRANSFERED INTO=2EAND ALSO YOUR TELEPHONE AND FAX NUMBERS FOR EASY COMMUNICATION=2E THANK YOU IN ANTICIPATON OF YOUR CANDID ASSISTANCE ON THIS MATTER=2E IF YOU ARE INTERESTED CONTACT ME IMMEDIATELY =2EAND SEND REQUESTED INFORMATIONS BY E-MAIL FOR IMMEDIATE COMMENCEMENT OF THIS TRANSACTION=2E YOURS FAITHFULLY=2C DR SMITH KUMANI=2E =28 Chief Accountant=29 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 03 21:40:31 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b3pF-000Dd2-00; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 21:40:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 03 Aug 2002 21:40:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b3p7-000Dcw-00; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 21:40:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list sci); Sat, 03 Aug 2002 21:40:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [217.78.76.138] (helo=afzhg876.com) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b3og-000DcO-00 for sci@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 21:40:11 +0300 From: "DR SMITH KUMANI" To: sci@esoteric.sange.fi Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:42:18 +0200 Subject: [sci] I NEED YOUR COOPERATION X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6900 DM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dr_smithkumani@email.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: sci X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dr_smithkumani@email.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc FROM=3ADR=2E SMITH KUMANI=2E ACCOUNT DEPARTMENT=2C UNION BANK OF NIGERIA PLC=2E MARINA- BRANCH=2C LAGOS=2E=2E =2E DEAR SIR=2C RE=3ATRANSFER OF THE SUM OF US$20=2E5M DOLLARS INTO YOUR ACCOUNT=2E FIRST=2CI MUST SOLICIT YOUR CONFIDENCE IN THIS TRANSACTION=2ETHIS IS BY VIRTUE OF IT'S NATURE AS BEING UTTERLY CONFIDENTIAL AND TOP SECRET=2ETHOUGH I KNOW THAT A TRANSACTION OF THIS MAGNITUDE WILL MAKE ANYONE APPREHENSIVE AND WORRIED=2EBUT I AM ASSURING YOU THAT ALL WILL BE WELL AT THE END OF THE DAY=2E WE HAVE DECIDED TO CONTACT YOU THROUGH THIS MEDIUM DUE TO THE URGENCY OF THIS TRANSACTION AS WE HAVE BEEN RELIABLY INFORMED OF YOUR DISCRETENESS AND ABILITY=2E LET ME START BY INTRODUCING MYSELF TO YOU=2E I AM DR SMITH KUMANI=2C AN ACCOUNTANT WITH THE UNION BANK OF NIGERIA PLC BRANCH OFFICE LAGOS=2EI CAME TO KNOW ABOUT YOU IN MY PRIVATE SEARCH FOR A RELIABLE AND REPUTABLE PERSON TO HANDLE THIS CONFIDENTIAL TRANSACTION AS WE ARE STILL IN ACTIVE SERVICE=2E THE PROPOSITION=2E AN AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL=2CLATE ENGINEER BUTCH R=2EMIGUEL=2CAN OIL MERCHANT=2FCONTRACTOR WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OF NIGERIA=2CUNTIL HIS DEATH THREE YEARS AGO IN A GHASTLY AIR CRASH IN AN EGYPT AIR=2C FLIGHT 990 WHICH OCCURED ON 2ND NOVEMBER 1999=2CBANKED WITH US HERE ATUNION BANK OF NIGERIA MARINA BRANCH LAGOS=2CAND HAD A CLOSSING BALANCE OF US$20=2E5M=28TWENTY MILLION FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND UNITED STATES DOLLARS=29IN A FIXED DEPOSIT ACCOUNT=2CWHICH THE BANK UNQUESTIONABLY EXPECTS IT TO BE CLAIMED BY ANY AVAILABLE FOREIGN NEXT-OF-KIN TO THE LATE BENEFICIARY OR ALTERNATIVELY BE DONATED TO A DISCREDITED TRUST FUND FOR THE PURCHASE OF ARMS AND AMMUNITIONS AT THE MILITARY WAR COLLEGE IN KADUNA STATE HERE IN NORTHERN NIGERIA=2E SEQUEL TO THIS=2CFERVENT VALUABLE EFFORTS WERE MADE BY UNION BANK OF NIGERIA TO GET IN TOUCH WITH ANY OF THE MIGUEL'S FAMILY OR RELATIVES BUT PROVED TO NO AVAIL=2EIT IS BECAUSE OF THE PERCEIVED POSSIBILITY OF NOT BEING ABLE TO LOCATE ANY OF THE LATE ENGR=2EBUTCH R=2E MIGUEL'S NEXT-OF-KIN=28HE HAD NO KNOWN WIFE AND CHILDREN=29 THAT THE MANAGEMENT UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF OUR HONOURABLE CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS=2CMAJOR-GENERAL KALU UKE KALU=28rtd=29 THAT AN ARRANGEMENT BE MADE FOR THE FUND TO BE DECLARED=22UN-CLAIMABLE=22 AND SUBSIQUENTLY BE DONATED TO THE TRUST FUND FOR THE PURCHASE OF ARMS AND AMMUNITON TO FURTHER ENHANCE THE COURSE OF WAR IN AFRICA AND THE WORLD IN GENERAL=2EIN ORDER TO AVERT THIS CRUDE AND NEGATIVE DEVELOPMENT=2CSOME OF MY TRUSTED COLLEAGUES AND I NOW SEEK YOUR PERMISSION TO HAVE YOU STAND AS THE NEXT-OF-KIN TO LATE ENGR=2E BUTCH R=2EMIGUEL=2C SO THAT THE FUND US$20=2E5M WOULD BE RELEASED AND PAID INTO YOUR ACCOUNT AS THE BENEFICIARY'S NEXT-OF KIN=2EALL DOCUMENTS AND PROVES TO ENABLE YOU RECIEVE THIS FUND WILL BECAREFULLY WORKED OUT AND MORESO AS PROFESSIONAL BANKERS=2C WE ARE ASSURING YOU OF 100%RISK-FREE INVOLVEMENT=2E YOUR SHARE STAYS WHILE THE REST WILL BE FOR MYSELF AND MY COLLEAGUES FOR INVESTMENT PURPOSES IN YOUR COUNTRY=2E NOTE THAT THIS TRANSACTION WILL STRICTLY BE BASED ON THE FOLLOWING TERMS AND CONDITIONS AS I HAVE STATED BELOW=2C AS WE HAVE HEARD CONFIRMED CASES OF BUSINESS ASSOCIATES RUNNING AWAY WITH FUNDS KEPT IN THEIR CUSTODY WHEN IT IS FINALLY REMITTED INTO THIER BANK ACCOUNTS=2ETHIS IS WHY WE HAVE DECIDED THAT THIS TRANSACTION WILL BE BASED ON THE FOLLOWING=3A- =28a=29 OUR CONVICTION OF YOUR TRANSPARENCY=2C HONESTY AND DILIGENCE=2E =28b=29 THAT YOU WILL TREAT THIS TRANSACTION WITH UTMOST SECRECY AND CONFIDENTIALITY =28c=29 YOU MUST BE READY TO PRODUCE US WITH ENOUGH INFORMATION ABOUT YOURSELF TO PUT OUR MINDS AT REST=2E =28d=29 THAT UPON RECIEPT OF THE FUND=2CYOU WILL PROMPTLY RELEASE OUR SHARE ON DEMAND AFTER YOU HAVE DEDUCTED YOUR 20%=2E YOUR URGENCY WILL BE HIGHLY APPRECIATED AS WE ARE ALREADY BEHIND SCHEDULE FOR THIS FINANCIAL QUATER=2E IF THIS PROPOSAL IS ALRIGHT BY YOU=2CTHEN KINDLY GET TOME IMMEDIATELY ON MY EMAIL ADDRESS=2EPLEASE TO FACILITATE THIS TRANSACTION=2CYOU ARE REQUESTED TO FORWARD WITH DELAY YOUR RELIABLE BANK ACCOUNT WHERE YOU WOULD WANT THIS FUND TO BE TRANSFERED INTO=2EAND ALSO YOUR TELEPHONE AND FAX NUMBERS FOR EASY COMMUNICATION=2E THANK YOU IN ANTICIPATON OF YOUR CANDID ASSISTANCE ON THIS MATTER=2E IF YOU ARE INTERESTED CONTACT ME IMMEDIATELY =2EAND SEND REQUESTED INFORMATIONS BY E-MAIL FOR IMMEDIATE COMMENCEMENT OF THIS TRANSACTION=2E YOURS FAITHFULLY=2C DR SMITH KUMANI=2E =28 Chief Accountant=29 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 04 02:38:10 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b8Sj-000FHn-00; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 02:37:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 04 Aug 2002 02:37:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b8Sa-000FHh-00; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 02:37:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Sun, 04 Aug 2002 02:37:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b8SY-000FHb-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 02:37:22 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g73NbKA05694 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 01:37:21 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g73NbKS25917 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 01:37:20 +0200 From: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 01:37:20 +0200 To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] [LIST-META] Re: misc & lang at esoteric.sange.fi Message-ID: <20020804013720.A25857@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020803092231.A6923@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020803092231.A6923@mu.ee.teiath.gr>; from ee4299@ee.teiath.gr on Sat, Aug 03, 2002 at 09:22:31AM +0300 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Al . Andreou wrote (on misc): > Hello, list. > > I have been wondering lately, after receiving doubles of > every message sent to lang, about the importance of the > forwarding of lang-messages to misc. > > Do we really need this? I think that if someone wants lang, > (s)he subscribes to it, otherwise only to misc (if there > is any reason behind this). There are, as far as I know, three lists ate esoteric.sange.fi which are forwared to misc, namely lang (the esoteric language list), sci (for the more mathematical and scientific aspects) and chat (for more or less everything else). misc was created so that those who want read all of the lists can subscribe to it instead of having to subscribe to each of the three other lists. The idea was that messages would be sent to the lang, sci and chat lists only (which, btw, also set the appropriate Reply-To header). Panu, I guess there is some kind of welcome message when one subscribes to the lists (it's been a while so I don't remember the details) ... maybe you could add this information to the welcome message for misc? Of course, misc is not strictly necessary, and should we get flooded by spam we'd have to make the other three lists closed which would make misc a lot less useful. Bertram Any errors in the above are my own. Corrections are welcome. -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 05 12:47:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17beQH-0001zI-00; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 12:45:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 05 Aug 2002 12:45:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17beQ7-0001z9-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 12:44:59 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g759irU18014; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:44:55 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g759ipt09191; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:44:51 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:44:51 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: "Al . Andreou" cc: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: misc & lang at esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <20020803092231.A6923@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Al . Andreou wrote: > I have been wondering lately, after receiving doubles of > every message sent to lang, about the importance of the > forwarding of lang-messages to misc. If you receive doubles for every message sent to lang, I guess it's because you are subscribed to both lists. I subscribe only misc, and receive everything only once. Recently, all the discussion has taken place in lang, so it doesn't make much difference which of the lists one subscribes (as long as one does not subscribe both). In plain English: lang messages are _automatically_ forwarded to misc, because misc is only meant to be an easy way to subscribe all lists at esoteric.sange.fi: lang, chat, and sci. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 05 15:11:48 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bgfb-00031O-00; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 15:09:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 05 Aug 2002 15:08:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bgfR-00031E-00; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 15:08:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Mon, 05 Aug 2002 15:08:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bgfM-000315-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 15:08:54 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g75C8nU04361 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:08:49 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g75C8mc11468 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:08:48 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:08:48 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Re: [LIST-META] Re: misc & lang at esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <20020804013720.A25857@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, 4 Aug 2002 bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de wrote: > Panu, I guess there is some kind of welcome message when one > subscribes to the lists (it's been a while so I don't remember > the details) ... maybe you could add this information to the > welcome message for misc? Well, there is, kinda; it only warns about the forwarding between lang and misc which should already be enough information for people to get the thing right; but I could go and update it anyway. Nobody reads the welcome messages, though... > Of course, misc is not strictly necessary, and should we get flooded > by spam we'd have to make the other three lists closed which would > make misc a lot less useful. Exactly. It's not yet enough spam to do so, but I guess when this takes place I have to subscribe all subscribers of misc to all the other lists separately. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 05 16:39:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bhxd-0003Zl-00; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 16:31:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 05 Aug 2002 16:31:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bhxR-0003Zd-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 05 Aug 2002 16:31:39 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@[195.130.100.175]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g75DSZK19889 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:28:36 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g75CxqW22959 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:59:52 +0300 Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:59:52 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: misc & lang at esoteric.sange.fi Message-ID: <20020805155952.C22941@mu.teiath.gr> References: <20020803092231.A6923@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI on Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 12:44:51PM +0300 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 12:44:51PM +0300, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > In plain English: lang messages are _automatically_ forwarded to misc, > because misc is only meant to be an easy way to subscribe all lists at > esoteric.sange.fi: lang, chat, and sci. I know that, as I knew it when I subscribed. I can't really tell why I did, but right now I'm really bored of unsubscribing from lang/sci. I don't even remember what the routine is. Care to remind me, please? -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 06 14:40:59 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c2fG-000C3S-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 14:38:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 14:38:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c2bc-000C2c-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 14:34:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 14:34:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c2bQ-000C2W-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 14:34:16 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g76BY5t21575; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 04:34:10 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 04:33:56 -0700 Subject: [lang] Cute program. Call it numwarp.b. From: Daniel To: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020805100101.30192.qmail@weltregierung.koeln.ccc.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >>>>+>+++>+++>>>>>+++>>,[>>+++++[<++++++>-]<+[<[-[<+>-]]<[>+<-]>>-]<[<+>-[<->-[- [-[-[-[-[-[<++>-[<+>-[<--->-[-[-[<++++>-[<+>-[<+>-[<+>-[<+>-[<+>-[<+>-[<+>-[ <+>-[<+>-[<+>-[<+>-[<+>-[<[-]>-[-[-[-[-[-[-[<+++++++++++++++++>-[<+>-[<+>-[< +>-[<+>-[<+>-[<++++[>[-[>+<-]]>[<+>-]<<-]>[<+++++++++++++++++>-[<+>-[<+>-[<+ >-[<+>-[<+>-[<[-]>[-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]<[<<++[>>>>> >>>>>>+<<<<<<<<<<<-]<<+>+>+>>>+>+>>+>+<<<<<-[<<+>>>+>+>>>+<<<<<-[<<<<+>>->>>>->> +<<<<-[<<<<->+>>>>->>>->-<<<<<-[<<<->>>>+<-[<<<+>>>>->+>>+<<<<-[<<<<+>->+>>> +>>>>+<<<<<-[<<->>>->->>>-<<<<<-[<<<<->+>>>>+>+>>>+<<<<<-[<<<<+>>>>>>-<<-[<< +>>>->>>>-<<<<<-[>+>>>->+<<<<<-[>>+<<-[<<<->->>>->->>+<<<<-[<<<+>+>>>+>+<<-[ >->-<<-[<<->>>+>+<<-[<<+>>>>>>->-<<<<<-[<<<<->>->>-[<<<<+>>>>>>>>+<<<<-[<<<<->>+ >>>>>>>+<<<<<-[>->>>-<<<<-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]>[[<<<<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>>>>-]>]+>> >>>>>+>]>,]<<[-[<+>[-]]]<-[>>>>+<<<<-]<<<<<<++<+++<+++[>]<[>>>>>>++++[<++++[<+++ <++>>-]>-]>>[-[<+<<<<.>>>>>-]]<<+<<-<<<<[-[-[>+<-]>]>>>[.[>]]<<[<+>-]>>>[<<- [<++>-]>>-]<<[++[<+>--]>+<]>>>[<+>-]<<<<<<<<]>>>>>++++++++++.>+[[-]<]<<<] [Outputs numbers in a form more easily read by humans than by computers. Characters provided are 0-9, a-f, (, ), -, /, ., and space. Just enter a number (e.g. a phone number), then hit return and ctrl-d. Needs EOF->0 (but modifiable). Daniel B. Cristofani (cristofd@hevanet.com)] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 06 15:52:38 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c3p3-000CgI-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:52:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:52:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c3nI-000Cg8-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:50:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:50:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c3n7-000Cg2-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:50:26 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g76CoFt22729; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 05:50:15 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 05:50:06 -0700 Subject: [lang] quick survey of brainfuck programmers. From: Daniel To: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020805100101.30192.qmail@weltregierung.koeln.ccc.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I suppose it's natural that a language which is easier to implement than to program in will have more implementors than programmers. But I'd like to know whether the programs at the brainfuck archive are really (roughly) all there is. So let me know if you've written brainfuck programs but not put them up--also, ideally, what programs and why not. Thank you; -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 06 17:24:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c5Fj-000DJK-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:24:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:23:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c5FL-000DJE-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:23:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:23:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c5FA-000DJ8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:23:28 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g76EKQK23632 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:20:31 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g76EUn401376 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:30:49 +0300 Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:30:43 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: quick survey of brainfuck programmers. Message-ID: <20020806173043.B1347@mu.ee.teiath.gr> References: <20020805100101.30192.qmail@weltregierung.koeln.ccc.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cristofd@hevanet.com on Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 05:50:06AM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 05:50:06AM -0700, Daniel wrote: > I suppose it's natural that a language which is easier to implement than to > program in will have more implementors than programmers. But I'd like to > know whether the programs at the brainfuck archive are really (roughly) all > there is. So let me know if you've written brainfuck programs but not put > them up--also, ideally, what programs and why not. (Part 1, if I have written.) Yes, I have, but really basic stuff. Didn't have the time to get involved (thankfully this changed). (Part 2, if I have submitted, and if not why.) Does ``too embarassed'' count as a valid reason? :-) Alexandros. -- This silly signature contains exactly five a's, one b, three c's, two d's, thirty-one e's, nine f's, four g's, seven h's, sixteen i's, one j, one k, four l's, one m, twenty-three n's, fifteen o's, one p, one q, nine r's, twenty-eight s's, eighteen t's, six u's, four v's, four w's, five x's, six y's and one z. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 06 19:11:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c6vG-000DvE-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:11:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:10:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c6ur-000Dv6-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:10:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:10:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp-out-6.wanadoo.fr ([193.252.19.25] helo=mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c6ui-000Dv0-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:10:28 +0300 Received: from mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.69) by mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D49FD97001D4DD6 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:10:27 +0200 Received: from there (217.128.161.178) by mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D49FFB7001C362E for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:10:27 +0200 Message-ID: <3D49FFB7001C362E@mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr> (added by postmaster@wanadoo.fr) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Jerome Quelin To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: quick survey of brainfuck programmers. Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:10:12 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jquelin@wanadoo.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jquelin@wanadoo.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mardi 6 Ao=FBt 2002 14:50, Daniel wrote : > So let me know if you've written brainfuck programs but not put > them up--also, ideally, what programs and why not. Yes. I wrote the solutions for the perl golf holes Cantor and Kolakoski a= t=20 TPR(0,3) (http://perlgolf.sourceforge.net/TPR/0/3/), but this was only to= =20 provide a quadrilingual solution (I provide here once again the link to t= he=20 article I wrote http://www.if.insa-lyon.fr/eleves/jquelin/quadri.html). Those programs were the first (and only) programs I wrote in BrainFuck. Why didn't I put on a central repository? Because: 1. I didn't know such a repository was up 2. I don't know if they're really such interesting 3. brainfuck isn't funny to use IMHO, Brainfuck's=20 concepts are funny, but writing in Brainfuck isn't funny. Whereas in Befu= nge,=20 the concepts are funny _and_ writing programs in Befunge is funny. Of cou= rse,=20 this reflects my own opinion (but anyway, I'm glad to have an experience = in=20 Brainfuck programming, I think every programmer should try at least once = :) ). J=E9r=F4me --=20 jquelin@wanadoo.fr From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 06 19:46:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c7TA-000EBE-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:46:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:45:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c7So-000EB8-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:45:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:45:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from 004.209-115-210-0.interbaun.com ([209.115.210.4] helo=impulse.novusordo.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c7Sf-000EB2-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:45:33 +0300 Received: (qmail 12234 invoked by uid 0); 6 Aug 2002 16:45:20 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO impulse.novusordo.net) (jvanherk@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 16:45:20 -0000 Received: (from jvanherk@localhost) by impulse.novusordo.net (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g76GjJRs022853 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:45:19 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:45:18 -0600 From: Jesse van Herk To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: quick survey of brainfuck programmers. Message-ID: <20020806164518.GB6952@impulse.novusordo.net> References: <3D49FFB7001C362E@mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D49FFB7001C362E@mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-URL: http://www.jess2.net X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: thebottomlessvoid@jess2.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: thebottomlessvoid@jess2.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On the 06th day of Aug, Jerome Quelin intoned: > > So let me know if you've written brainfuck programs but not put > > them up--also, ideally, what programs and why not. I haven't written anything of note in brainfuck. > 3. brainfuck isn't funny to use IMHO, Brainfuck's > concepts are funny, but writing in Brainfuck isn't funny. Whereas in Befunge, > the concepts are funny _and_ writing programs in Befunge is funny. Of course, I'm not really sure what you mean by 'funny'; I'm trying to write a useful program in trefunge and it's the most[0] painful debugging I've ever done. [0] I've written part of a program in malbolge, but that didn't require debugging. ;) -- Jesse "amateur everything" van Herk | "+3 Cookies of yummy!" --Red Mage http://www.jess2.net/ | (780)-907-0494 | From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 06 19:56:14 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c7cy-000EGj-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:56:12 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:56:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c7cc-000EGc-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:55:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:55:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp-out-6.wanadoo.fr ([193.252.19.25] helo=mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c7cO-000EGV-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:55:41 +0300 Received: from mel-rta7.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.61) by mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D49FD97001D9ED1 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:55:35 +0200 Received: from there (217.128.161.178) by mel-rta7.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D49FF14001B5C27 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:55:35 +0200 Message-ID: <3D49FF14001B5C27@mel-rta7.wanadoo.fr> (added by postmaster@wanadoo.fr) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Jerome Quelin To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: quick survey of brainfuck programmers. Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:55:20 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] References: <3D49FFB7001C362E@mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr> <20020806164518.GB6952@impulse.novusordo.net> In-Reply-To: <20020806164518.GB6952@impulse.novusordo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jquelin@wanadoo.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jquelin@wanadoo.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mardi 6 Ao=FBt 2002 18:45, Jesse van Herk wrote : > I'm not really sure what you mean by 'funny';=20 By funny, I mean "enjoy what you do". I really enjoy writing programs in=20 Befunge. > I'm trying to write a useful program in trefunge=20 What an oxymoron! :) > and it's the most[0] painful debugging I've ever done. Have you tried BrainFuck? Befunge has *a lot* of debugging facilities. Trefunge is clumsy in the way it is implemented. I'd rather have the thir= d=20 dimension implemented via multiple files. But once again, it's only a=20 personnal opinion. > [0] I've written part of a program in malbolge, but that didn't require > debugging. ;) I know Malbolge, but haven't wrote anything with this language. J=E9r=F4me --=20 jquelin@wanadoo.fr From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Aug 06 20:11:52 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c7rz-000EMl-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:11:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:11:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c7ri-000EMf-00; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:11:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:11:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from 004.209-115-210-0.interbaun.com ([209.115.210.4] helo=impulse.novusordo.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17c7rZ-000EMY-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:11:17 +0300 Received: (qmail 28098 invoked by uid 0); 6 Aug 2002 17:11:14 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO impulse.novusordo.net) (jvanherk@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 6 Aug 2002 17:11:14 -0000 Received: (from jvanherk@localhost) by impulse.novusordo.net (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g76HBEP1022247 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:11:14 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:11:14 -0600 From: Jesse van Herk To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: quick survey of brainfuck programmers. Message-ID: <20020806171114.GC9958@impulse.novusordo.net> References: <3D49FFB7001C362E@mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr> <20020806164518.GB6952@impulse.novusordo.net> <3D49FF14001B5C27@mel-rta7.wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D49FF14001B5C27@mel-rta7.wanadoo.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-URL: http://www.jess2.net X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: thebottomlessvoid@jess2.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: thebottomlessvoid@jess2.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On the 06th day of Aug, Jerome Quelin intoned: > By funny, I mean "enjoy what you do". I really enjoy writing programs in > Befunge. I definitely enjoy writing simple programs in it. Mostly for other people's reactions. > What an oxymoron! :) Heh. > Have you tried BrainFuck? Befunge has *a lot* of debugging facilities. Problem is that they're not so useful for what I'm doing. see below... Surely it wouldn't be very hard to add a rudimentary debug mode to a brainfuck interpreter... > Trefunge is clumsy in the way it is implemented. I'd rather have the third > dimension implemented via multiple files. But once again, it's only a > personnal opinion. What I'm writing is a 3D text editor(see, useful! also incredibly slow), aimed at writing trefunge. It uses ncurses(my own extension), which makes every debugging tool but the -t (trace) option useless. I personally like the 3D file format, and think that once this project is finished, it'll seem less awkward. > I know Malbolge, but haven't wrote anything with this language. It prints "hello,". Malbolge is also far easier to write an interpreter for, but I think the numbers of both interpreter writers and programmers are quite small. -- Jesse "Super Mario" van Herk | "Okaaaay... We'll call you an expert and http://www.jess2.net/ | move on." --Scott Ireland (780)-907-0494 | From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 07 03:30:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cEiP-000H54-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 03:30:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 03:30:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cEht-000H4p-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 03:29:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 03:29:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd5mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cEhj-000H4i-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 03:29:35 +0300 Received: from pd3mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr2so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.178]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0G00BGB6P85B@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 18:29:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml2so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml2so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.146]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0G00CGX6P8XI@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 18:29:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0G00JH66P7CW@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 06 Aug 2002 18:29:32 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:33:54 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] An idea: brainfuck golf To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020806173354.4ce4274d.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc There's Perl Golf, why not Brainfuck Golf? The same goal: to write a Brainfuck program to do a certain task using as few chars as possible. Brainfuck is probably the most widely known esoteric language, so there should be a few people willing to write stuff. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 07 09:54:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cKhq-000JO8-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:54:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:53:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cKhL-000JNu-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:53:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:53:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cKhB-000JNo-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:53:25 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g776rMJ10741 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2002 23:53:22 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 23:53:11 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: quick survey of brainfuck programmers. From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020806173043.B1347@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc To various: > (Part 2, if I have submitted, and if not why.) > Does ``too embarassed'' count as a valid reason? :-) Sure. > 2. I don't know if they're really such interesting I liked them, but then again I like writing in brainfuck. > Surely it wouldn't be very hard to add a rudimentary debug mode to a > brainfuck interpreter... Sure. M=FCller's interpreter had a debug command # which output the first ten cells, in decimal, plus a ^ on the next line to show pointer location. -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 07 10:09:47 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cKww-000JUr-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:09:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:09:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cKwg-000JUl-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:09:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:09:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cKwR-000JUf-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:09:17 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g77798J11030; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:09:08 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 00:08:57 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020806173354.4ce4274d.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > There's Perl Golf, why not Brainfuck Golf? The same goal: to write a > Brainfuck program to do a certain task using as few chars as possible. > Brainfuck is probably the most widely known esoteric language, so > there should be a few people willing to write stuff. > > __ ><(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ > /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ I second the idea, of course. Naturally, it would be necessary to specify the conditions clearly. Personally I'd vote for requiring strict portability, e.g. forbidding use of wraparound or negative numbers. I am crossposting this response to the friends-of-brainfuck mailing list (http://koeln.ccc.de/mailman/listinfo/friends-of-brainfuck), to reach as many interested people as possible. I know there's a lot of overlap between the lists, but it's far from perfect. -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 07 10:59:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cLiV-000JrO-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:58:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:58:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cLi2-000JrF-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:58:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:58:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd5mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cLhn-000Jr9-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:58:12 +0300 Received: from pd2mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.110]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0G00GDHRGT6M@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 01:58:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml4so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml4so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.148]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0G00MHYRGTBC@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 01:58:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0G0009BRGTVK@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 01:58:05 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 01:02:28 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020807010228.10584757.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020806173354.4ce4274d.ayzik@shaw.ca> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 00:08:57 -0700 Daniel wrote: > > There's Perl Golf, why not Brainfuck Golf? The same goal: to write a > > Brainfuck program to do a certain task using as few chars as possible. > > Brainfuck is probably the most widely known esoteric language, so > > there should be a few people willing to write stuff. > I second the idea, of course. Naturally, it would be necessary to specify > the conditions clearly. Personally I'd vote for requiring strict > portability, e.g. forbidding use of wraparound or negative numbers. Yes, and maybe even byte-sized cells (or would that be too cruel?) (BTW I came up with this idea after thinking about ways to convert text to brainfuck code that prints that text. It seems to be a fairly non-trivial problem, allowing for many ways of doing the same thing, which is the requirement for Golf. Kolmogorov complexity anyone?) __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 07 11:00:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cLja-000JsP-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:59:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:59:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cLjN-000Jry-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:59:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:59:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd6mo1so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cLjF-000Jrs-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:59:37 +0300 Received: from pd2mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.108]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0G00C9BRII03@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 01:59:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml7so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml7so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.151]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0G00JLVRJBLT@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 01:59:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0G0018ERJB90@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 01:59:35 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 01:03:58 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: quick survey of brainfuck programmers. In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020807010358.510d0e27.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE References: <20020806173043.B1347@mu.ee.teiath.gr> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 06 Aug 2002 23:53:11 -0700 Daniel wrote: > > Surely it wouldn't be very hard to add a rudimentary debug mode t= o a > > brainfuck interpreter... >=20 > Sure. M=FCller's interpreter had a debug command # which output the= first ten > cells, in decimal, plus a ^ on the next line to show pointer locati= on. I have once written Visual Brainfuck -- BF interpreter in visual basi= c, where you could run program step by step, see the memory tape right on the = screen, place breakpoints and stuff. I think I've deleted it, though. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\= / /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/= \ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 07 14:15:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cOmP-000LFD-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:15:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:14:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cOiV-000LBT-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:11:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:10:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cOiL-000LBN-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:10:53 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g77BAiU15890 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:10:52 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g77BAf608941 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:10:41 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:10:40 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Nequam, my new language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Ryan Michel wrote: > i didn't include the url with the original e-mail so here it is: > www.geocities.com/psyopsmstr/nequam.html It mostly looks like False. Classes look like functions. What can you do with variables? Was there a definition for '=' somewhere? -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 07 14:30:18 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cP0w-000LNe-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:30:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:29:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cP0a-000LNR-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:29:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:29:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cP0S-000LNL-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:29:36 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g77BTZU21360 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:29:35 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g77BTY509079 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:29:34 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:29:33 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: ESOLANG Subject: [lang] Re: C++ as an esoteric programming language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Gerson Kurz wrote: > Is it just me, or does C++ suck pretty badly? Download "boost", a C++ > template madness that is said to improve your programs. Compile a simple C++ in itself is hard to say much on; it supports so many styles and has so many implementations that it's hard to speak of C++ itself. It is a very interesting language and a design that has just got to the point that it really makes strong typing possible. But as there are alternatives that can do everything C++ can and with more elegant syntax / language model, I nowadays see little reason to use C++ for anything. > I can't help - this looks like something yer favourite "obfuscated language" > couldn't do much better. If, at this point, you don't agree that C++s "obfuscated languages" haven't often had this complicated type systems... it would be fun to try to make an "esoteric type system", though. And hard, I suppose. > 100000 loops of that takes .... TADA: 200 ms. Yep, 200 ms vs. 2600 ms, for > basically the same algorithm, in the same language. With the help of STL & While I agree on the general performance observations you make, I don't quite think this is a fair comparison: IIRC, strtok() modifies its argument in-place, so if you want to use the string stuff for something, you have to strdup() it first. Not that this will make such a dramatic difference, though... > i = 0 > while i < 100000: > for token in "This is, a test".split(): > shit = token > i += 1 > > Took 484 ms. Damn, I feel stupid now for my own C++ classes! Usually, if the language lets you state more directly what you're trying to do, it will be easier to optimise. But this result is still quite surprising. While I usually say, "use whichever language you're most comfortable with" when I'm asked about choice of languages, I sometimes meet people who use "the wrong language" for some project because with a better language it "would be no project at all". For example, somebody wanted to make a piece of mailing list software in C because Majordomo "is just a Perl script" so it's "actually not software at all". Similarly, many users of C++ would be better adviced to use Python or some other scripting language for their small "project". Often it will turn out that their "project" becomes a "hack", going from 2000 loc to 100 or so. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 07 14:38:16 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cP8o-000LTz-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:38:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:38:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cP8S-000LTm-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:37:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:37:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mrwaynxd-new.lnk.telstra.net ([139.130.76.194] helo=gateway.michel.com.au) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cP8G-000LTd-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:37:41 +0300 Received: from ork (ork.michel.com.au [203.18.139.105]) by gateway.michel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g77BbU524395 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:37:31 +1000 From: "Ryan Michel" To: Subject: [lang] Re: Nequam, my new language Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:37:55 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk X-list: misc My spec have changed a bit since then but variables can be pushed onto the stack and have operations performed on them. The classes are just like functions except that when execution leaves them they retain, the stack as is except for the return values, all of the cvariables that have been declared. This makes them less like functions and more like classes. I began writing the specs before I saw False but I when I found it, I altered the direction the language was going in, originally no sub-classes, and some other minor changes. Since posting the version at the web page I have added a new type of variable, the stack, so that classes may have more than one stack, these additional stacks may have only push, pop and peek performed on them. This allows for an array of sorts, albeit a very primitive one. The '=' operator is under pop operators, as an execution operator. Again it was and is still very much in the development stages at the moment I have however started implementing it in VC++ 6.0 it is my first major implementation besides qna another much smaller easier language alot like brainf*** but with a queue as well as an array to store data and perform calculations. thank you for taking an interest, I will have a more up to date version posted in the next few days. ryan -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Panu A Kalliokoski Sent: Wednesday, 7 August 2002 9:11 PM To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Nequam, my new language On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Ryan Michel wrote: > i didn't include the url with the original e-mail so here it is: > www.geocities.com/psyopsmstr/nequam.html It mostly looks like False. Classes look like functions. What can you do with variables? Was there a definition for '=' somewhere? -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 07 14:59:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cPSf-000Lds-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:58:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:58:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cPPB-000LdM-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:55:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:55:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cPP2-000LdD-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:55:00 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g77BsuS17705; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 04:54:56 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 04:54:45 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020807010228.10584757.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >> I second the idea, of course. Naturally, it would be necessary to specify >> the conditions clearly. Personally I'd vote for requiring strict >> portability, e.g. forbidding use of wraparound or negative numbers. > > Yes, and maybe even byte-sized cells (or would that be too cruel?) No, that sounds perfectly reasonable. > (BTW I came up with this idea after thinking about ways to convert text to > brainfuck code that prints that text. It seems to be a fairly non-trivial > problem, allowing for many ways of doing the same thing, which is the > requirement for Golf. Kolmogorov complexity anyone?) Finding the shortest brainfuck code that prints a given chunk of text looks nontrivial, sure. Though not necessarily very fun. Finding the shortest brainfuck code that converts a given chunk of text into brainfuck code that prints that text is less nontrivial. I've got it down to 52 bytes so far. Finding the shortest brainfuck code that converts a given chunk of text into the shortest brainfuck code that prints that text is pretty hopeless. :) -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 07 15:47:19 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cQDL-000M41-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 15:47:00 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 15:46:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cQCv-000M3t-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 15:46:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 15:46:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cQCl-000M3n-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 15:46:23 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g77CkJU21371 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:46:19 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g77CkJB10742 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:46:19 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:46:19 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [essies] Status Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc From the brainfuck golf proposals, the essies sprang to my mind. I guess you all guessed already that we haven't been actively judging the entries for all this time. Some random notes about each entry have been made, maybe by about two judges per entry, currently. John said (ages ago) that he would summarise the comments, but is apparently waiting for every judge to say something about every entry. When or if I receive any summarised material, I'll put it onto the essies' pages (together with the entries). In the meanwhile, the participants will probably want to publicise and advertise their languages in the list. I guess there's no point keeping them secret anyway, as there were entries that were made public before the deadline already... For a convenience, I put up a browsing/downloading area at http://esoteric.sange.fi/essie2/download Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 07 16:33:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cQw0-000MMR-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:33:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:33:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cQvJ-000MMK-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:32:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:32:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cQv9-000MME-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:32:15 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g77DTcK27047 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:29:38 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g77DeT903940 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:40:29 +0300 Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:40:29 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [essies] Status Message-ID: <20020807164029.A3937@mu.ee.teiath.gr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 03:46:19PM +0300 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 03:46:19PM +0300, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > > >From the brainfuck golf proposals, the essies sprang to my mind. > > I guess you all guessed already that we haven't been actively judging the > entries for all this time. Some random notes about each entry have been I'm happy that somebody remembered of the essies :-) . > area at http://esoteric.sange.fi/essie2/download Has anyone heard of Ben Olmstead and the v.1 essie results? -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Aug 07 21:45:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cVoG-000OKP-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:45:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:45:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cVnm-000OKG-00; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:44:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:44:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cVnd-000OKA-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:44:49 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g77IimU09744 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:44:48 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g77Iil918000 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:44:47 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:44:47 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [essies] Status In-Reply-To: <20020807164029.A3937@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Al . Andreou wrote: > Has anyone heard of Ben Olmstead and the v.1 essie results? The first essies were eventually judged. They were a victim of judge shortage :) I don't remember who won, though, but you can find that in the archive: http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/ -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 01:59:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cZlp-000Pn4-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 01:59:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 01:59:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cZjy-000Pmy-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 01:57:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 01:57:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd4mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cZjo-000Pms-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 01:57:09 +0300 Received: from pd2mr4so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr4so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.107]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0H00LA3X36QG@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:57:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml8so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml8so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.152]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0H0012VX36GK@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:57:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0H00K7MX368N@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:57:06 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:01:38 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020807160138.35c7225c.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020807010228.10584757.ayzik@shaw.ca> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 04:54:45 -0700 Daniel wrote: > Finding the shortest brainfuck code that converts a given chunk of text into > brainfuck code that prints that text is less nontrivial. I've got it down to > 52 bytes so far. Aargh. Can't get below 55 :\ __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 02:08:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cZux-000Prn-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:08:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:08:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cZul-000Prh-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:08:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:08:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cZud-000Prb-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:08:19 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g77N8HA07101 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:08:18 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g77N8H612327 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:08:17 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:08:17 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf Message-ID: <20020808010817.A12247@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020807010228.10584757.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020807160138.35c7225c.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020807160138.35c7225c.ayzik@shaw.ca>; from ayzik@shaw.ca on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 04:01:38PM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 04:54:45 -0700 > Daniel wrote: > > > Finding the shortest brainfuck code that converts a given chunk of text into > > brainfuck code that prints that text is less nontrivial. I've got it down to > > 52 bytes so far. > > Aargh. Can't get below 55 :\ Hehe, I'm at 49 - assuming , returns 0 at EOF, 52 for EOF==-1. regards, Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 02:25:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17caBG-000Pzy-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:25:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:25:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ca9m-000Pwb-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:23:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:23:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd3mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ca9Z-000PwV-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:23:49 +0300 Received: from pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.179]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0H0016PYBJGW@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:23:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml7so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml7so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.151]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0H00LQUYBJM8@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:23:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0H00AGXYBIL6@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:23:43 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:28:15 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf In-reply-to: <20020808010817.A12247@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020807162815.2b0d50a7.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020807010228.10584757.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020807160138.35c7225c.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020808010817.A12247@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 01:08:17 +0200 Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > > On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 04:54:45 -0700 > > Daniel wrote: > > > > > Finding the shortest brainfuck code that converts a given chunk of text into > > > brainfuck code that prints that text is less nontrivial. I've got it down to > > > 52 bytes so far. > > > > Aargh. Can't get below 55 :\ > > Hehe, I'm at 49 - assuming , returns 0 at EOF, 52 for EOF==-1. If we're doing this by the rules (the ones we have not yet agreed upon ;) ), EOF would return 0 because no negatives are allowed. Also, incrementing 255 or decrementing 0 would return an error - are you sure you're not doing that? Hmm, I really have no idea how to get it below 55. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 03:04:26 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17camp-0000GE-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 03:04:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 03:04:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17camU-0000G8-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 03:03:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 03:03:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17camH-0000G2-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 03:03:45 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7803iA09069 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 02:03:44 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g7803hA12519 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 02:03:43 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 02:03:43 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf Message-ID: <20020808020343.B12247@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020807010228.10584757.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020807160138.35c7225c.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020808010817.A12247@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> <20020807162815.2b0d50a7.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020807162815.2b0d50a7.ayzik@shaw.ca>; from ayzik@shaw.ca on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 04:28:15PM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 01:08:17 +0200 > Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > > Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > > > On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 04:54:45 -0700 > > > Daniel wrote: > > > > > > > Finding the shortest brainfuck code that converts a given chunk of text into > > > > brainfuck code that prints that text is less nontrivial. I've got it down to > > > > 52 bytes so far. > > > > > > Aargh. Can't get below 55 :\ > > > > Hehe, I'm at 49 - assuming , returns 0 at EOF, 52 for EOF==-1. Clarification: The file has no final newline. > If we're doing this by the rules (the ones we have not yet agreed upon ;) ), EOF > would return 0 because no negatives are allowed. Also, incrementing 255 or > decrementing 0 would return an error - are you sure you're not doing that? Yes. Only the version which assumes EOF==-1 would increment that number (-1) to test for EOF. The other version is 'clean' in that aspect. I vote for allowing decrementing 0 though (and be it only so my quine is valid ;-), to be precise: You may decrement 0 up to 127 times and assume that all intermediate results are nonzero and that incrementing the number again as often as one decremented it will again yield zero (with the same intermediate results in reverse order). One can not use [-] to set a cell containing a negative number to zero though; this loop is not guaranteed to terminate. ([+] would work, but this does not work for positive numbers ... big trouble there) This is consistent with the requirements for the 'char' type in the ISO C standard. (obviously, this works if char is a signed char; if char is an unsigned char, the C standard says that arithmetic is done modulo the maximum value plus 1 (which is at least 256)). regards, Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 05:30:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cd4B-0001Gu-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 05:30:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 05:30:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cd3j-0001Gf-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 05:29:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 05:29:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd6mo1so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cd3V-0001GZ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 05:29:46 +0300 Received: from pd5mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.233]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0I0093V6WM3U@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 20:29:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml4so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml4so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.148]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0I001N06XFPF@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 20:29:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0I00CHF6XELT@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 20:29:39 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 19:34:11 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf In-reply-to: <20020808020343.B12247@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020807193411.2429e6fd.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020807010228.10584757.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020807160138.35c7225c.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020808010817.A12247@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> <20020807162815.2b0d50a7.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020808020343.B12247@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:03:43 +0200 Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > I vote for allowing decrementing 0 though (and be it only so > my quine is valid ;-), to be precise: > > You may decrement 0 up to 127 times and assume that all intermediate > results are nonzero and that incrementing the number again as often > as one decremented it will again yield zero (with the same intermediate > results in reverse order). One can not use [-] to set a cell containing > a negative number to zero though; this loop is not guaranteed to terminate. > ([+] would work, but this does not work for positive numbers ... big > trouble there) Hm, I don't like it, because it would essentially mean that cell size is 383, which is weird (or that only positives 0 to 127 are used, which is cruel). In any case, quine is hardly a good Brainfuck Golf problem. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 07:25:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cerF-0001vb-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:25:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:25:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ceqk-0001vS-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:24:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:24:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ceqb-0001vM-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:24:29 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g784OPr21362; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:24:26 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:24:14 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020807162815.2b0d50a7.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 01:08:17 +0200 > Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > >> Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: >>> On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 04:54:45 -0700 >>> Daniel wrote: >>> >>>> Finding the shortest brainfuck code that converts a given chunk of text >>>> into >>>> brainfuck code that prints that text is less nontrivial. I've got it down >>>> to >>>> 52 bytes so far. >>> >>> Aargh. Can't get below 55 :\ >> >> Hehe, I'm at 49 - assuming , returns 0 at EOF, 52 for EOF==-1. > > If we're doing this by the rules (the ones we have not yet agreed upon ;) ), > EOF > would return 0 because no negatives are allowed. Also, incrementing 255 or > decrementing 0 would return an error - are you sure you're not doing that? > > Hmm, I really have no idea how to get it below 55. I've got it to 49 also, now. And I vote for using the range 0-255, naturally. (No pun intended.) If and when we start doing brainfuck golf for real, do we call entries with different but equally short code a tie? Or do we use a tiebreaker (e.g. an idealized version of execution time), and then call it a tie if that matches as well? -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 07:43:00 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cf8Q-00020I-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:42:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:42:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cf8D-00020C-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:42:41 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:42:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cf84-000206-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:42:32 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g784gTr22141; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:42:29 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:42:18 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020808020343.B12247@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: >> On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 01:08:17 +0200 >> Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: >> >>> Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: >>>> On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 04:54:45 -0700 >>>> Daniel wrote: >>>> >>>>> Finding the shortest brainfuck code that converts a given chunk of text >>>>> into >>>>> brainfuck code that prints that text is less nontrivial. I've got it down >>>>> to >>>>> 52 bytes so far. >>>> >>>> Aargh. Can't get below 55 :\ >>> >>> Hehe, I'm at 49 - assuming , returns 0 at EOF, 52 for EOF==-1. > > Clarification: The file has no final newline. I suggest we make a policy of counting only brainfuck commands. >> If we're doing this by the rules (the ones we have not yet agreed upon ;) ), >> EOF >> would return 0 because no negatives are allowed. Also, incrementing 255 or >> decrementing 0 would return an error - are you sure you're not doing that? > > Yes. Only the version which assumes EOF==-1 would increment that number > (-1) to test for EOF. The other version is 'clean' in that aspect. > > I vote for allowing decrementing 0 though (and be it only so > my quine is valid ;-), to be precise: > > You may decrement 0 up to 127 times and assume that all intermediate > results are nonzero and that incrementing the number again as often > as one decremented it will again yield zero (with the same intermediate > results in reverse order). One can not use [-] to set a cell containing > a negative number to zero though; this loop is not guaranteed to terminate. > ([+] would work, but this does not work for positive numbers ... big > trouble there) > > This is consistent with the requirements for the 'char' type in the > ISO C standard. (obviously, this works if char is a signed char; if > char is an unsigned char, the C standard says that arithmetic is done > modulo the maximum value plus 1 (which is at least 256)). True; again, your preference is reasonable though it differs from mine. I don't want to take brainfuck's description in terms of C as too strictly normative. Another thing: there's a kind of symmetry between decrementing a zero and moving the pointer left of the original position, so I want to forbid both or neither, and my vote is both. (Stretching the analogy further, one could compare both to unmatched ].) -Daniel. > regards, > > Bertram From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 07:52:11 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cfHO-00024x-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:52:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:52:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cfHF-00024r-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:52:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:51:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cfH6-00024l-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:51:52 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g784pnr22526; Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:51:50 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:51:39 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020807193411.2429e6fd.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc (I'm still trying to crosspost all the substance of this discussion to friends-of-brainfuck, by the way.) > On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:03:43 +0200 > Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > >> I vote for allowing decrementing 0 though (and be it only so >> my quine is valid ;-), to be precise: >> >> You may decrement 0 up to 127 times and assume that all intermediate >> results are nonzero and that incrementing the number again as often >> as one decremented it will again yield zero (with the same intermediate >> results in reverse order). One can not use [-] to set a cell containing >> a negative number to zero though; this loop is not guaranteed to terminate. >> ([+] would work, but this does not work for positive numbers ... big >> trouble there) > > Hm, I don't like it, because it would essentially mean that cell size is 383, > which is weird (or that only positives 0 to 127 are used, which is cruel). ...and likely to impair the ability to do output in binary formats. > In any case, quine is hardly a good Brainfuck Golf problem. Well, it's been a popular Golf problem for a long time, but as it stands it's somewhat ill-specified... -Daniel. (P.S. I think I'll borrow that ribbon, having long been a firm believer in the cause:) -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 08:15:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cfeG-0002G1-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 08:15:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 08:15:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cfdz-0002Fv-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 08:15:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 08:15:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd6mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cfdq-0002Fp-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 08:15:23 +0300 Received: from pd6mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd6mr1so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.216]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0I00KBKEKGKJ@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 23:14:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml5so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml5so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.149]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0I00IEZEKXD2@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 23:14:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0I00MC4ELKXH@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 07 Aug 2002 23:15:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 22:19:53 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] [OT] ascii ribbon In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020807221953.35f6f552.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020807193411.2429e6fd.ayzik@shaw.ca> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:51:39 -0700 Daniel wrote: > > In any case, quine is hardly a good Brainfuck Golf problem. > > Well, it's been a popular Golf problem for a long time, but as it > stands it's somewhat ill-specified... > > -Daniel. > > (P.S. I think I'll borrow that ribbon, having long been a firm believer in > the cause:) Yay! This, by the way, is the page I got the ribbon from. http://arc.pasp.de/ __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 10:18:46 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17chYt-00038h-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 10:18:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 10:17:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17chYS-00038b-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 10:17:57 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@[195.130.100.160]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g787F9K29736; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:15:09 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g786AfZ07359; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:10:41 +0300 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:10:41 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Cc: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Subject: comp.lang.esoteric Message-ID: <20020808091041.A7356@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc No, there is not such a newsgroup, but I was wondering if you would like to see it happen and if you would care to use it (sort of unifying ...@esoteric.sange.fi and friends-of-brainfuck). Any ideas, or volunteers to pursue this goal? (I can, if no-one else volunteers :) .) -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 11:54:28 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cj3e-0003vR-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:54:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:54:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cj2z-0003vD-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:53:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:53:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mrwaynxd-new.lnk.telstra.net ([139.130.76.194] helo=gateway.michel.com.au) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cj2o-0003v7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:53:23 +0300 Received: from ork (ork.michel.com.au [203.18.139.105]) by gateway.michel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g788rF527190 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:53:15 +1000 From: "Ryan Michel" To: Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:53:34 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20020807160138.35c7225c.ayzik@shaw.ca> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I am at 55 as well and can't figure how to get rid of 6 characters. Mind you I did start at 73 and have weedled it this far down. still going after about an hour and a half ryan -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Nikita Ayzikovsky Sent: Thursday, 8 August 2002 9:02 AM To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 04:54:45 -0700 Daniel wrote: > Finding the shortest brainfuck code that converts a given chunk of text into > brainfuck code that prints that text is less nontrivial. I've got it down to > 52 bytes so far. Aargh. Can't get below 55 :\ __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 12:21:07 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cjTS-000462-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:20:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:20:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cjSx-00045v-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:20:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:20:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cjSm-00045p-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:20:13 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g789KAU09496 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:20:10 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g789KAa23035 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:20:10 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:20:09 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf In-Reply-To: <20020808020343.B12247@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > I vote for allowing decrementing 0 though (and be it only so > my quine is valid ;-), to be precise: > You may decrement 0 up to 127 times and assume that all intermediate > results are nonzero and that incrementing the number again as often > as one decremented it will again yield zero (with the same intermediate I vote against. IIRC, at least the Unlambda and Thue implementations break big time if you decrement zero. (But they implement arbitrary integers in change :)) Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 12:41:27 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cjnI-0004Fj-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:41:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:41:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cjmy-0004Fc-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:41:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:40:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd6mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cjmp-0004FW-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:40:55 +0300 Received: from pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr1so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.232]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0I00K9NQUZOT@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 03:40:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml2so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml2so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.146]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0I004CPQW373@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 03:40:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0I00KKKQW3X2@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 03:40:51 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:45:25 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] braifuck golf rules To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020808024525.7319b8f5.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Ok, how about this: 1. The memory tape is infinitely long to the right 2. Going to the left of the starting cell is an error 3. Cells can hold values from 0 to 255 4. No over- or underflow allowed 5. EOF = 0 The only rule it seems reasonable to argue on (IMHO) is 3 - maybe no restriction is better. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 14:13:57 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17clER-0004xY-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:13:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:13:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17clDd-0004tw-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:12:41 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:12:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17clDT-0004tn-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:12:31 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g78B9pK30562 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:09:51 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g78BKu908173 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:20:56 +0300 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:20:56 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf Message-ID: <20020808142056.B8033@mu.ee.teiath.gr> References: <20020807160138.35c7225c.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ryan@michel.com.au on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 06:53:34PM +1000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 06:53:34PM +1000, Ryan Michel wrote: > I am at 55 as well and can't figure how to get rid of 6 characters. Mind > you I did start at 73 and have weedled it this far down. What the he--? It seems that I got it to 49 characters with the first try! I think that I have the project wrong. Is it: "write the smallest bf program that gets text and outputs bf code that generates that text"? -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 14:22:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17clMo-0004za-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:22:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:22:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17clMZ-0004zU-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:21:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:21:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17clMQ-0004zO-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:21:46 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g78BJ4K30594 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:19:05 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g78BUw208221 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:30:58 +0300 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:30:57 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf Message-ID: <20020808143057.C8033@mu.ee.teiath.gr> References: <20020807160138.35c7225c.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020808142056.B8033@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020808142056.B8033@mu.ee.teiath.gr>; from ee4299@ee.teiath.gr on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 02:20:56PM +0300 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 02:20:56PM +0300, Al . Andreou wrote: > It seems that I got it to 49 characters with the first try! > I think that I have the project wrong. Is it: "write the smallest > bf program that gets text and outputs bf code that generates that > text"? Dug up the first message and it seems that I got it right. I just spotted a possible point of further reduction (but it's ``only'' one or two characters). Power to Dimitris Koufontinas. -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 14:32:36 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17clWm-00055R-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:32:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:32:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17clWV-00055L-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:32:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:32:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17clWL-00055F-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:32:01 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g78BVqr02877; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 04:31:53 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 04:31:42 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules From: Daniel To: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020808024525.7319b8f5.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Ok, how about this: > > 1. The memory tape is infinitely long to the right > 2. Going to the left of the starting cell is an error > 3. Cells can hold values from 0 to 255 > 4. No over- or underflow allowed > 5. EOF = 0 Sounds great. I will suggest a few others, which are widely agreed on but are probably worth stating explicitly anyway just as a precaution. If anyone disagrees with any of these, they're up for debate, of course. -Any character but +-<>[],. is a comment and therefore ignored in execution; also not counted for scoring purposes. -Brainfuck source code is ASCII text (extended-ASCII characters are fine). -There is no limitation on program length. -No special termination character is necessary. -A return is ASCII 10 (decimal), plain and simple. -Code with unbalanced [] is illegal. -There is no limitation on stack depth. -The range of possible input will be described in the problem specification, which may be trusted. -Code to produce a given output must produce exactly that output; stray invisible characters are a violation. (E.g. +[,.] is not a legitimate cat.) -The . command leaves the value in the cell unchanged. -The test for the [] commands is done on the cell where the pointer is at the time, which is not necessarily where it was when the loop was begun. -Code intended to solve a finite problem must solve it in finite time, and terminate afterwards; code intended to solve an infinite problem must solve any given finite portion of it in finite time. -Where the problem involves generating brainfuck code, generated code is subject to the exact same rules. (Yes, including this one.) (Note that several of the other rules are very unlikely to become relevant except in conjunction with this last one.) There's one more rule I'm thinking of; I'm unsure about it, and it has several consequences. It is that a program must not use the , command unnecessarily. For instance: -If no input is described in the problem specification, the , command may not be used. -If input is terminated with a return, the , command may not be used after the return is received. -If the length of input is specified in the problem description, or is specified explicitly by some part of the input (most likely if a binary format is being used), the , command may not be used to get more input than the specified amount. -If input is terminated with an EOF, the , command may not be used after the EOF is received. In the first three cases I'm trying to rule it out as a cheap way to zero a location, and in the fourth I'm also trying to dodge the issue of what the result would be. There are also a few procedural issues to deal with. Solutions should probably be mailed to some impartial person, to avoid any suspicion of cheating. I don't know if we want to set deadlines or just wait for everyone to give up. -Daniel. > The only rule it seems reasonable to argue on (IMHO) is 3 - maybe no > restriction is better. > > __ ><(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ > /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ > > > > > From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 16:04:52 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cmx1-0005nU-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:03:40 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:03:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cmv9-0005kE-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:01:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:01:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cmuz-0005k8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:01:33 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g78CwsK30839 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:58:54 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g78DAGK08307 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:10:16 +0300 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:10:16 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Test, please ignore. Message-ID: <20020808161016.D8033@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Testing if a non-subscriber can post to lang. Please ignore the mail. -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 16:18:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cnBF-0005tG-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:18:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:18:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cnAV-0005sz-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:17:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:17:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.rib.de ([213.68.181.228]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cnAM-0005st-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:17:27 +0300 Received: from 172.16.1.12 by mail.rib.de ([213.68.181.228] running VPOP3) with ESMTP for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:17:20 +0200 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Nonsubscriber reply MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.9a January 7, 2002 Message-ID: From: "Carsten Kuckuk" Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:17:19 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on NOTES-STGT/RIB Bausoftware GmbH(Release 5.0.9a |January 7, 2002) at 08.08.2002 15:17:20, Serialize complete at 08.08.2002 15:17:20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ck@rib.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ck@rib.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Im an nonsubscriber, too! From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 16:24:14 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cnGu-0005yV-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:24:12 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:24:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cnGd-0005yE-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:23:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:23:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.rib.de ([213.68.181.228]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cnGT-0005y8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:23:45 +0300 Received: from 172.16.17.6 by mail.rib.de ([213.68.181.228] running VPOP3) with ESMTP for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:23:39 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:23:39 +0200 From: Carsten Kuckuk X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <15214430765.20020808152339@kuckuk.com> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Nonsubscriber reply In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ck@kuckuk.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ck@kuckuk.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Could the list administrator please be so kind and turn this list into one where only registered members can post?! I'd hate to see spam mail on this mailing list. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 16:56:44 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cnmC-0006Bx-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:56:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:56:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cnm4-0006Br-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:56:24 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g78DriK31031 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:53:44 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g78E5oM11314 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:05:50 +0300 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:05:49 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: [lang] Re: Nonsubscriber reply Message-ID: <20020808170549.D8397@mu.ee.teiath.gr> References: <15214430765.20020808152339@kuckuk.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15214430765.20020808152339@kuckuk.com>; from ck@kuckuk.com on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 03:23:39PM +0200 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 03:23:39PM +0200, Carsten Kuckuk wrote: > Could the list administrator please be so kind and turn this list into > one where only registered members can post?! I'd hate to see spam mail > on this mailing list. Let's do this when there is need to. For now, it is useful for me to be able to post to lang while actually not being a member of it. I post lang-related messages to lang, and receive them from misc :-) . -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 17:00:16 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cnpm-0006Cx-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:00:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:00:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from excalibur.skynet.be ([195.238.3.90]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cnpf-0006Cr-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:00:07 +0300 Received: from decis.be (93.208-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be [194.78.208.93]) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id g78E00o19315 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:00:00 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Received: from decis.be ([192.168.0.20]) by decis.be ([194.78.208.93]) with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v6.0.3.R) for ; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 15:54:26 +0200 Message-ID: <3D527A8D.F8EFDFD7@decis.be> Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:05:01 +0200 From: Frederic van der Plancke Reply-To: fvdp@decis.be, fplancke@hotmail.com Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: [lang] Re: Nonsubscriber reply References: <15214430765.20020808152339@kuckuk.com> <20020808170549.D8397@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by excalibur.skynet.be id g78E00o19315 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk X-list: misc "Al . Andreou" wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 03:23:39PM +0200, Carsten Kuckuk wrote: > > Could the list administrator please be so kind and turn this list int= o > > one where only registered members can post?! I'd hate to see spam mai= l > > on this mailing list. >=20 > Let's do this when there is need to. For now, it is useful for me to > be able to post to lang while actually not being a member of it. I > post lang-related messages to lang, and receive them from misc :-) . That's exactly the reason why everyone is purposefully allowed to post to= lang. Fr=E9d=E9ric. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 17:08:38 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cnxn-0006HE-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:08:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:08:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cnxJ-0006H8-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:08:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:07:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cnx9-0006H2-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:07:52 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.164 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:09:26 +0100 From: mtysoe@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] Re: Nonsubscriber reply Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:05:42 +0100 Message-ID: <000001c23ee4$af7744d0$a400000a@td164> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <15214430765.20020808152339@kuckuk.com> Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtysoe@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtysoe@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I'll like to know how to unsubcribe!! -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Carsten Kuckuk Sent: 08 August 2002 14:24 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Nonsubscriber reply Could the list administrator please be so kind and turn this list into one where only registered members can post?! I'd hate to see spam mail on this mailing list. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 17:28:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coGg-0006PR-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:28:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:27:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coFw-0006PL-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:27:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:27:08 +0300 (EEST) Received: from excalibur.skynet.be ([195.238.3.90]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coFo-0006PF-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:27:08 +0300 Received: from decis.be (93.208-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be [194.78.208.93]) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id g78ER6o26936 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:27:06 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Received: from decis.be ([192.168.0.20]) by decis.be ([194.78.208.93]) with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v6.0.3.R) for ; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:21:33 +0200 Message-ID: <3D5280E8.E078432E@decis.be> Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:32:08 +0200 From: Frederic van der Plancke Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Nonsubscriber reply References: <000001c23ee4$af7744d0$a400000a@td164> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by excalibur.skynet.be id g78ER6o26936 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk X-list: misc The help file (to get it, send a message with "help" as subject to listar= @esoteric.sange.fi) says: > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM A LIST: > Send a message to the listar account on the server (...). > Enter "unsubscribe [listname]" in the > subject field. You can also send a message to=20 > "[listname]-request" with a subject of "unsubscribe". > While you should NOT send your unsubscribe command to the list > itself, Listar will attempt to trap such erroneous postings and > forward them to the list administrators for proper handling. That is, either send subject "unsubscribe" to lang-request@esoteric.sange= .fi, or send subject "unsubscribe lang" to listar@esoteric.sange.fi. Assu= ming you want to unsubscribe from [lang]. HTH. Fr=E9d=E9ric. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 17:29:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coIL-0006Q4-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:29:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:29:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coI2-0006Pl-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:29:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:29:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coHu-0006Pe-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:29:18 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g78EQaK31160 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:26:36 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g78EalF11340 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:36:47 +0300 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:36:47 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Shortest representation of a number in Brainfuck Message-ID: <20020808173647.E8397@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello, 'f***ers :-) . I made this nice observation while writing the "turn text to brainfuck that prints the text" program. It describes the way to use the minimum number of characters to produce Brainfuck code that itself represents a number. From the euclidean geometry we all had, we know that if we want a rectangular area (size A), with the minimum perimeter P, then the resulting schema will be a square with a side of A^{-1/2}. So, if you want to represent, say, 81 (which ``happens'' to be square), the most efficient code will be: +++++++++[->+++++++++<] (9 times 9) Solutions like ++++++++[->++++++++++<]>+ (8 times 10 plus 1) or +++++++[->++++++++++++<]>--- (7 times 12 minus 3) are obviously no the most efficient. An example for 43 (another completely random example): ++++++[->+++++++<]>+ is the most efficient. A proof of this may come from lattice geometry; feel free to prove it, I don't know anything about it than just rumors. So, the most efficient code to represent N will be: CEILING(SQRT(N)) * FLOOR(SQRT(N)) + REMAINDER. Total length for the string will be: CEILING(SQRT(N)) + FLOOR(SQRT(N)) + 5, if there is no remainder, or CEILING(SQRT(N)) + FLOOR(SQRT(N)) + 6 + REMAINDER if there is something remaining. (This is valid only for the cases where it is more efficient to write the ceiling and the floor of the square root of N as a string of +'s; otherwise, you must break it further down.) That's it, really. -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 17:29:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coIO-0006QA-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:29:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:29:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coIG-0006Py-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:29:40 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:29:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coI6-0006Ps-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:29:31 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g78EQoK31173 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:26:50 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g78Du2U08423 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:56:02 +0300 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:56:02 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules Message-ID: <20020808165602.A8397@mu.ee.teiath.gr> References: <20020808024525.7319b8f5.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cristofd@hevanet.com on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 04:31:42AM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I agree with the rules, they seem quite reasonable. We should also use the interpreter/compiler the judging team will use. Have we reached ISO Brainfuck status? :-) On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 04:31:42AM -0700, Daniel wrote: > There are also a few procedural issues to deal with. Solutions should > probably be mailed to some impartial person, to avoid any suspicion of > cheating. I don't know if we want to set deadlines or just wait for everyone > to give up. A deadline is better. We don't know who is `everyone' :-) . -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 17:32:03 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coKX-0006S6-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:32:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:31:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coKE-0006Rr-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:31:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:31:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.rib.de ([213.68.181.228]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coK5-0006Rk-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:31:34 +0300 Received: from 172.16.17.6 by mail.rib.de ([213.68.181.228] running VPOP3) with ESMTP; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:31:26 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:31:26 +0200 From: Carsten Kuckuk X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <9318498078.20020808163126@kuckuk.com> To: Frederic van der Plancke CC: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Nonsubscriber reply In-Reply-To: <3D5280E8.E078432E@decis.be> References: <000001c23ee4$af7744d0$a400000a@td164> <3D5280E8.E078432E@decis.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ck@kuckuk.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ck@kuckuk.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello Frederic, Would it be possible to add a line with the unsubscribe description to each e-mail? Carsten Thursday, August 8, 2002, 4:32:08 PM, you wrote: FvdP> The help file (to get it, send a message with "help" as subject to listar@esoteric.sange.fi) says: >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM A LIST: >> Send a message to the listar account on the server (...). >> Enter "unsubscribe [listname]" in the >> subject field. You can also send a message to >> "[listname]-request" with a subject of "unsubscribe". >> While you should NOT send your unsubscribe command to the list >> itself, Listar will attempt to trap such erroneous postings and >> forward them to the list administrators for proper handling. FvdP> That is, either send subject "unsubscribe" to lang-request@esoteric.sange.fi, or send subject "unsubscribe lang" to listar@esoteric.sange.fi. Assuming you want to unsubscribe from [lang]. FvdP> HTH. FvdP> Frédéric. -- Best regards, Carsten mailto:ck@kuckuk.com From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 17:39:42 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coRw-0006Y9-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:39:40 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:39:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coRh-0006Y3-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:39:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:39:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from picard.skynet.be ([195.238.3.88]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coRY-0006Xx-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:39:17 +0300 Received: from decis.be (93.208-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be [194.78.208.93]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id g78Ed3b02380 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:39:03 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Received: from decis.be ([192.168.0.20]) by decis.be ([194.78.208.93]) with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v6.0.3.R) for ; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:34:17 +0200 Message-ID: <3D5283E4.28E85C75@decis.be> Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:44:52 +0200 From: Frederic van der Plancke Organization: Decis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carsten Kuckuk CC: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Nonsubscriber reply References: <000001c23ee4$af7744d0$a400000a@td164> <3D5280E8.E078432E@decis.be> <9318498078.20020808163126@kuckuk.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Carsten Kuckuk wrote: > > Hello Frederic, > > Would it be possible to add a line with the unsubscribe description to > each e-mail? Probably, but the owner of the list is Panu Kalliokoski, not me. Let's see what he will answer when he'll have read the message on the list. Granted, the path to unsubscribing is too well hidden... All the best, Frederic. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 17:45:19 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coXJ-0006im-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:45:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:45:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coX6-0006hp-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:45:00 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:44:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17coWw-0006gt-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:44:51 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g78Eimr08467 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 07:44:48 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:44:38 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Shortest representation of a number in Brainfuck From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020808173647.E8397@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > An example for 43 (another completely random example): Very random, I'm sure. > A proof of this may come from lattice geometry; feel free to prove > it, I don't know anything about it than just rumors. > > So, the most efficient code to represent N will be: > CEILING(SQRT(N)) * FLOOR(SQRT(N)) + REMAINDER. Hmm, so the most efficient way to get 63 is like +++++++[>++++++++<-]>+++++++ and not just +++++++[>+++++++++<-]? -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 17:51:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17codX-0006kS-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:51:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:51:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17codI-0006kM-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:51:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:51:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from lutra.sztaki.hu ([193.225.86.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cod9-0006kG-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:51:16 +0300 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.sztaki.hu by sztaki.hu (PMDF V6.1-1 #30524) id <0H0J00M0159AJD@sztaki.hu> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:51:10 +0200 (MEST) Received: from sztaki.hu by sztaki.hu (PMDF V6.1-1 #30524) id <0H0J00M0159AJA@sztaki.hu> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:51:10 +0200 (MEST) Resent-date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:51:10 +0200 (MEST) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 16:51:09 +0200 From: Pal Benko Subject: [lang] Re: Shortest representation of a number in Brainfuck In-reply-to: <20020808173647.E8397@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Sender: benko@sztaki.hu To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <9003-Thu08Aug2002165109+0200-benko@lutra.sztaki.hu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: emacs 20.6.1 (via feedmail 8 I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-Id: Resent-From: benko@sztaki.hu Resent-Bcc: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benko@sztaki.hu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benko@sztaki.hu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc From benko Thu Aug 8 16: 51 MES 2002 References: <20020808173647.E8397@mu.ee.teiath.gr> > So, if you want to represent, say, 81 (which ``happens'' to be square), > the most efficient code will be: > =09+++++++++[->+++++++++<] (9 times 9) I was thinking about 3 times 3 times 3 times 3, but as +++[->+++<] is longer than +++++++++ ... p From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 19:13:01 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cpts-0007in-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:12:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:12:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cpt7-0007hr-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:11:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:11:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cpsy-0007hl-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:11:40 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g78GBab21558 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:11:37 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g78GBaC21662 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:11:36 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:11:36 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf Message-ID: <20020808181136.A21461@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020807010228.10584757.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020807160138.35c7225c.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020808010817.A12247@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> <20020807162815.2b0d50a7.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020808020343.B12247@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> <20020807193411.2429e6fd.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020807193411.2429e6fd.ayzik@shaw.ca>; from ayzik@shaw.ca on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 07:34:11PM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hi, Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:03:43 +0200 > Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > > I vote for allowing decrementing 0 though (and be it only so > > my quine is valid ;-), to be precise: > > > > You may decrement 0 up to 127 times and assume that all intermediate > > results are nonzero and that incrementing the number again as often > > as one decremented it will again yield zero (with the same intermediate > > results in reverse order). One can not use [-] to set a cell containing > > a negative number to zero though; this loop is not guaranteed to terminate. > > ([+] would work, but this does not work for positive numbers ... big > > trouble there) > > Hm, I don't like it, because it would essentially mean that cell size is 383, Well, not really - nothing forbids mapping -1 to 255, -2 to 254, -3 to 252, etc. -- 8 bits is still enough. Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 19:38:18 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cqIh-0007sy-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:38:15 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:38:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cqIT-0007sd-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:38:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:37:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cqIK-0007sX-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:37:52 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g78GZBK31481 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:35:12 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g78GlLu12429 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:47:21 +0300 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:47:21 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Nonsubscriber reply Message-ID: <20020808194721.A11703@mu.ee.teiath.gr> References: <000001c23ee4$af7744d0$a400000a@td164> <3D5280E8.E078432E@decis.be> <9318498078.20020808163126@kuckuk.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <9318498078.20020808163126@kuckuk.com>; from ck@kuckuk.com on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 04:31:26PM +0200 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 04:31:26PM +0200, Carsten Kuckuk wrote: > Hello Frederic, > > Would it be possible to add a line with the unsubscribe description to > each e-mail? We don't want people to leave the list. No-one will escape. -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 19:39:36 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cqJz-0007tR-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:39:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:39:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cqJr-0007tL-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:39:27 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g78GalK31489 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:36:47 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g78Gmvb13886 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:48:57 +0300 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:48:57 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: The BrainFAQ Message-ID: <20020808194857.B11703@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Just announcing the F.A.Q. for Brainfuck, that I am preparing right now. It will be put to brainfaq.html (on my homepage) when it is done. How can I submit it for inclusion to the archive? Panu's the maintainer, right? -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 20:01:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cqf8-00085b-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:01:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:01:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cqek-00085V-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:01:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:00:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [212.16.6.108] (helo=frox25.i989.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cqeb-00085P-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:00:53 +0300 Received: (qmail 3987 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2002 15:59:01 -0000 Received: from heartw.ih (10.0.17.4) by nova.ih with SMTP; 8 Aug 2002 15:59:01 -0000 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:05:17 +0400 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <2287573582.20020808210517@frox25.i989.net> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.i989.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.i989.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello Daniel! Thursday, August 08, 2002, 3:31:42 PM, you wrote: > Sounds great. I will suggest a few others, which are widely agreed on but > are probably worth stating explicitly anyway just as a precaution. If anyone > disagrees with any of these, they're up for debate, of course. Excellent rules and wonderful game :) Allow me to list current scores (sorry if missed someone), and let's agree on deadline (for ex. August 11th, 00:00 UTC) after which we'll post our solutions here. Ryan 55 Nikita 55 Mtve 51 Bertran 49 Daniel 49 Al 49 ---- Mtv Europe From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 20:20:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cqxY-0008EH-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:20:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:20:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cqwq-0008E2-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:19:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:19:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cqwd-0008Dw-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:19:31 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g78HJUb26153 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:19:30 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g78HJU022331 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:19:30 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:19:29 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf Message-ID: <20020808191929.C22152@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020807162815.2b0d50a7.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cristofd@hevanet.com on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:24:14PM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Daniel wrote: > I've got it to 49 also, now. And I vote for using the range 0-255, > naturally. (No pun intended.) just for the record, I have two significantly different brainfuck programs solving the task (significantly different meaning you can't convert the one by just moving around + and > signs - I know that's a vague definition - maybe I should settle for 'using a different structure of loops') > If and when we start doing brainfuck golf for real, do we call entries with > different but equally short code a tie? Or do we use a tiebreaker (e.g. an > idealized version of execution time), and then call it a tie if that matches > as well? I think used memory (that is, maximum cell index which was either decremented or incremented or tested against zero) makes a nice tie breaker; execution time - or, maybe better, cost - requires an agreement on what certain operations cost - assuming that '+' costs 1, does '++++' cost 1 (just a single addition, using an optimizing bf compiler) or 4? - but would work, too. (Simply counting the number of opcodes executed, counting [ and ] as an opcode, should be good enough.) (My second program loses against the first both with respect to memory used (O(n) vs. O(1)) and with respect to the execution cost (constant factor in O(n) is bigger)) Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 22:03:26 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17csZ2-0008vs-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:03:16 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:03:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17csY4-0008si-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:02:16 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:02:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17csXv-0008sc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:02:07 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr [195.130.107.59]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g78IxKK31814 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:59:20 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g78Gwjd14459 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:58:45 +0300 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:58:44 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Shortest representation of a number in Brainfuck Message-ID: <20020808195844.C11703@mu.ee.teiath.gr> References: <20020808173647.E8397@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cristofd@hevanet.com on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 07:44:38AM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 07:44:38AM -0700, Daniel wrote: > Hmm, so the most efficient way to get 63 is like > +++++++[>++++++++<-]>+++++++ > and not just > +++++++[>+++++++++<-]? Yes, the theory says so... :-) Actually, 63 is 64-1, so we can make it 8*8-1 which is off-by-one from the efficient solution. Factoring and then using the prime factors is a solution too :-) . (Yes, 9 is not a prime, but 3 is: 63=3*3*7.) This is what I did in the beginning to get numbers Brainfucked, then noted the geometrical theorem. The application of geometry to BF made me so happy that I overlooked some results (I knew that rounding is a bad thing, and this is why I talk about lattices in my OP; I am sure that this is valid for rectangular numbers). -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Aug 08 22:10:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17csfn-0008xM-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:10:15 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:10:08 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17csfS-0008x7-00; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:09:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:09:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd5mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17csfF-0008x1-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:09:46 +0300 Received: from pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.179]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0J00EP2H831B@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 13:09:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml3so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml3so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.147]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0J0075OH836K@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 13:09:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.6 (built Apr 26 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0J00JC3H8323@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 13:09:39 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:14:19 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] More on Brainfuck Golf To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020808121419.2298f6b9.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I registered brainfuck.sourceforge.net (nothing there yet). I also wrote a Brainfuck interpreter in Python, with rigorous error checking. It can work both as a stand-alone interpreter and as the judging thingie (checks if output matches a required one with the given input). It can also manage extended interpretation, i.e. evaluating the output of a program as another program, automatically. It's on http://lament.hypermart.net/brain.py Here's an example how to use it to check the validity of our current problem from inside python interpreter: >>> import brain >>> brain.run("your program goes here", input=("SAME STRING IN IN AND OUT",""), ... output="SAME STRING IN IN AND OUT", extended_interpretation=1) 11607 # for my program, at least There will be no output other than the number of steps taken by the program to execute, unless there's an error or the output doesn't match. Steps right now are checked only in the last of the chained programs, that could be changed. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 02:44:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cwvK-000AVf-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 02:42:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 02:42:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cwur-000AVZ-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 02:42:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 02:41:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mrwaynxd-new.lnk.telstra.net ([139.130.76.194] helo=gateway.michel.com.au) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cwuh-000AVT-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 02:41:55 +0300 Received: from ork (ork.michel.com.au [203.18.139.105]) by gateway.michel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g78Nce529192 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:38:41 +1000 From: "Ryan Michel" To: Subject: [lang] Re: Shortest representation of a number in Brainfuck Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:42:31 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20020808195844.C11703@mu.ee.teiath.gr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk X-list: misc 63 also equals 9 * 7 which is exact and requires no additional + or - thus saving a character!!! ryan -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Al . Andreou Sent: Friday, 9 August 2002 2:59 AM To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Shortest representation of a number in Brainfuck On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 07:44:38AM -0700, Daniel wrote: > Hmm, so the most efficient way to get 63 is like > +++++++[>++++++++<-]>+++++++ > and not just > +++++++[>+++++++++<-]? Yes, the theory says so... :-) Actually, 63 is 64-1, so we can make it 8*8-1 which is off-by-one from the efficient solution. Factoring and then using the prime factors is a solution too :-) . (Yes, 9 is not a prime, but 3 is: 63=3*3*7.) This is what I did in the beginning to get numbers Brainfucked, then noted the geometrical theorem. The application of geometry to BF made me so happy that I overlooked some results (I knew that rounding is a bad thing, and this is why I talk about lattices in my OP; I am sure that this is valid for rectangular numbers). -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 03:22:12 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cxWK-000Atm-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:20:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:20:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cxW5-000Atg-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:20:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:20:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cxVp-000Ata-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:20:17 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (ttm@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g790K9P10100; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:20:10 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:20:00 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules From: Daniel To: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2287573582.20020808210517@frox25.i989.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Hello Daniel! Hello. > Excellent rules and wonderful game :) I agree. Thank you Nikita Ayzikovsky. > Allow me to list current scores (sorry if missed someone), and let's > agree on deadline (for ex. August 11th, 00:00 UTC) after which we'll > post our solutions here. The problem with that is we probably can't all post here at exactly the same time, so it would be possible for someone to look at the solutions posted so far, then repost one (perhaps slightly modified, conceivably even improved) under his own name. None of us have any reason to distrust each other that I know of, but I'd like to remove the possibility from consideration entirely. So I'm thinking we choose some neutral person, send solutions to him before the deadline, and have him post them all to the list after the deadline. > Ryan 55 > Nikita 55 > Mtve 51 > Bertran 49 > Daniel 49 > Al 49 Right. Thanks for the handy summary. ("Bertram", I think.) -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 03:52:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cy0X-000BEp-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:52:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:51:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cxzz-000BEj-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:51:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:51:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mrwaynxd-new.lnk.telstra.net ([139.130.76.194] helo=gateway.michel.com.au) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cxzo-000BEd-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:51:17 +0300 Received: from ork (ork.michel.com.au [203.18.139.105]) by gateway.michel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g790m2529369 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:48:04 +1000 From: "Ryan Michel" To: Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:51:53 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk X-list: misc what time gmt is 00:00 utc? I need this because I know I am GMT+10. thanks anyonew for the info ryan -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Daniel Sent: Friday, 9 August 2002 10:20 AM To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi; friends-of-brainfuck@koeln.ccc.de Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules > Hello Daniel! Hello. > Excellent rules and wonderful game :) I agree. Thank you Nikita Ayzikovsky. > Allow me to list current scores (sorry if missed someone), and let's > agree on deadline (for ex. August 11th, 00:00 UTC) after which we'll > post our solutions here. The problem with that is we probably can't all post here at exactly the same time, so it would be possible for someone to look at the solutions posted so far, then repost one (perhaps slightly modified, conceivably even improved) under his own name. None of us have any reason to distrust each other that I know of, but I'd like to remove the possibility from consideration entirely. So I'm thinking we choose some neutral person, send solutions to him before the deadline, and have him post them all to the list after the deadline. > Ryan 55 > Nikita 55 > Mtve 51 > Bertran 49 > Daniel 49 > Al 49 Right. Thanks for the handy summary. ("Bertram", I think.) -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 04:19:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cyQn-000BQC-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:19:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:19:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cyQW-000BQ6-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:18:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:18:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cyQN-000BQ0-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:18:43 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g791IeP12917; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:18:40 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:18:31 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020808191929.C22152@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Unless I get some indication that someone on friends-of-brainfuck is listening, I'm going to stop crossposting things. >> Hm, I don't like it, because it would essentially mean that cell size is 383, > > Well, not really - nothing forbids mapping -1 to 255, -2 to 254, -3 to 252, > etc. -- 8 bits is still enough. > > Bertram > just for the record, I have two significantly different brainfuck > programs solving the task (significantly different meaning you > can't convert the one by just moving around + and > signs - I > know that's a vague definition - maybe I should settle for > 'using a different structure of loops') Congratulations. I have only one at 49 as yet. I see no reason to rule out multiple submissions by one person, by the way. (In case someone wants both versions to go on the record, or doesn't want to bother to work out which would win the tiebreaker.) >> If and when we start doing brainfuck golf for real, do we call entries with >> different but equally short code a tie? Or do we use a tiebreaker (e.g. an >> idealized version of execution time), and then call it a tie if that matches >> as well? > > I think used memory (that is, maximum cell index which was either > decremented or incremented or tested against zero) makes a nice > tie breaker; I agree. Though I vote for counting input or output as "use" of a cell also. And at that point you may as well just say "maximum cell index which the pointer has reached", because a person who moves the pointer to the right and then doesn't do anything there should not be rewarded. execution time - or, maybe better, cost - requires an > agreement on what certain operations cost - assuming that '+' costs > 1, does '++++' cost 1 (just a single addition, using an optimizing > bf compiler) or 4? - but would work, too. (Simply counting the > number of opcodes executed, counting [ and ] as an opcode, > should be good enough.) That's what I was thinking--though we'd have to stipulate semantics for [ and ] more exactly then; I'd vote for jump-to-after for both. (I'm happy with either execution cost or memory use as a tiebreaker. The latter would probably be less trouble to calculate exactly, as a rule.) Obviously, the scoring rules, unlike the language rules, do not apply to generated code. -Daniel. > (My second program loses against the first both with respect to > memory used (O(n) vs. O(1)) and with respect to the execution cost > (constant factor in O(n) is bigger)) Okay, so we're conducting tiebreaker (in either case) based on which does best on large inputs--both in terms of length of input and in terms of ASCII value of the inputs, with the former predominating? Or...? > Bertram -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 04:34:52 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cyeZ-000BV5-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:33:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:33:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cyeM-000BUz-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:33:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:33:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd4mo1so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cyeE-000BUt-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:33:02 +0300 Received: from pd3mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr2so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.178]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0J00IKEYYZWV@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:32:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml6so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml6so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.150]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0J00BJTYYZRY@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:32:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0J00D0NYYZ91@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:32:59 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:37:40 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Brainfuck Golf (again) To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020808183740.09661f22.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Please look at my self-proclaimed Brainfuck Golf homepage ( http://brainfuck.sourceforge.net/ ), and tell me if you think anything's wrong with it. Oh, and we have to agree on the judging procedure. As long as only esolang and friends-of-brainfuck are in this, we can just say stuff like "I can do this in 45 bytes" and believe each other, but more people might get interested. Hmm :) __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 04:37:55 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cyis-000BZI-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:37:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:37:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cyij-000BZC-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:37:41 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:37:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd4mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cyiW-000BZ6-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:37:32 +0300 Received: from pd2mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.108]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0J00CD0Z48WT@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:36:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml10so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml10so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.80]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0J008FFZ48IJ@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:36:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0J00809Z4754@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:36:08 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:40:49 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020808184049.011a5dc4.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020808191929.C22152@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:18:31 -0700 Daniel wrote: > > I think used memory (that is, maximum cell index which was either > > decremented or incremented or tested against zero) makes a nice > > tie breaker; > > I agree. Though I vote for counting input or output as "use" of a cell also. > And at that point you may as well just say "maximum cell index which the > pointer has reached", because a person who moves the pointer to the right > and then doesn't do anything there should not be rewarded. Maybe the person to win should be the one with the _least_ memory used? __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 04:54:59 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cyzN-000BhL-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:54:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:54:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cyyu-000BhF-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:54:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:54:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cyyl-000Bh9-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:54:15 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g791sCP14725 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:54:13 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:54:03 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020808184049.011a5dc4.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >>> I think used memory (that is, maximum cell index which was either >>> decremented or incremented or tested against zero) makes a nice >>> tie breaker; >> >> I agree. Though I vote for counting input or output as "use" of a cell also. >> And at that point you may as well just say "maximum cell index which the >> pointer has reached", because a person who moves the pointer to the right >> and then doesn't do anything there should not be rewarded. > > Maybe the person to win should be the one with the _least_ memory used? That's what I meant; sorry I didn't make it clear. I assume you mean only as a tiebreaker if the source for both is equally short. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 04:58:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cz2R-000Bif-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:58:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:57:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cz2I-000BiQ-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:57:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:57:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cz29-000BiK-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:57:46 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g791vhP14862 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:57:43 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:57:34 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > what time gmt is 00:00 utc? Midnight. -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 04:59:50 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cz4A-000BjW-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:59:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:59:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cz42-000BjI-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:59:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:59:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mrwaynxd-new.lnk.telstra.net ([139.130.76.194] helo=gateway.michel.com.au) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cz3s-000BjB-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:59:33 +0300 Received: from ork (ork.michel.com.au [203.18.139.105]) by gateway.michel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g791uJ529559 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 11:56:19 +1000 From: "Ryan Michel" To: Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 12:00:11 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk X-list: misc so UTC is the exact same as Greenwich Mean Time?? ryan -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Daniel Sent: Friday, 9 August 2002 11:58 AM To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules > what time gmt is 00:00 utc? Midnight. -Daniel. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 05:06:00 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17czA7-000Bop-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:05:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:05:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cz9X-000Boj-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:05:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:05:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cz9P-000Bod-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:05:15 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7925CP15162 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:05:12 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:05:03 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: More on Brainfuck Golf From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020808121419.2298f6b9.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > I also wrote a Brainfuck interpreter in Python, with rigorous > error checking. It can work both as a stand-alone interpreter > and as the judging thingie (checks if output matches a required > one with the given input). It can also manage extended interpretation, > i.e. evaluating the output of a program as another program, automatically. > It's on http://lament.hypermart.net/brain.py Looks great. One little problem though. It doesn't check the rule I said I wasn't sure about, the one about not using more input than necessary. And if that rule isn't enforced, the problem can be solved in 40 bytes. -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 05:08:27 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17czCU-000Bpe-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:08:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:08:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17czCL-000BpX-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:08:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:08:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17czCC-000BpR-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:08:08 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g79286P15264 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:08:06 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:07:57 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > so UTC is the exact same as Greenwich Mean Time?? Yeah. -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 05:17:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17czKw-000Bux-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:17:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:17:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17czKh-000Bur-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:16:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:16:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd3mo1so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17czKU-000Bul-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:16:47 +0300 Received: from pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr1so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.232]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0K00J080ZTGT@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:16:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml10so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml10so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.80]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0K002KE0ZTGC@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:16:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0K0080G0ZSIF@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:16:41 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:21:22 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: More on Brainfuck Golf In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020808192122.59e3c03e.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020808121419.2298f6b9.ayzik@shaw.ca> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:05:03 -0700 Daniel wrote: > > I also wrote a Brainfuck interpreter in Python, with rigorous > > error checking. It can work both as a stand-alone interpreter > > and as the judging thingie (checks if output matches a required > > one with the given input). It can also manage extended interpretation, > > i.e. evaluating the output of a program as another program, automatically. > > It's on http://lament.hypermart.net/brain.py > > Looks great. One little problem though. It doesn't check the rule I said I > wasn't sure about, the one about not using more input than necessary. And if > that rule isn't enforced, the problem can be solved in 40 bytes. Hm. Ok, I'll add it, but i'm not sure about it. What do other people think? __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 05:41:48 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17czif-000C3P-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:41:41 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:41:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cziJ-000C3J-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:41:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:41:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17cziA-000C3D-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:41:10 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g792f8P16877 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:41:08 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:40:58 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck Golf (again) From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020808183740.09661f22.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Please look at my self-proclaimed Brainfuck Golf homepage > ( http://brainfuck.sourceforge.net/ ), and tell me if > you think anything's wrong with it. Looks good, except that M=FCller's program in the logo has been truncated to say "He". Maybe a program to spell "Golf" instead? It should fit neatly. ++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<-]>+.>+.---.------.>. -Daniel. --=20 () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 06:22:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d0Lr-000CIp-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:22:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:22:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d0LQ-000CIj-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:21:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:21:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd4mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d0LH-000CId-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:21:35 +0300 Received: from pd2mr4so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr4so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.107]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0K00AFY3ZXIB@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:21:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml3so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml3so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.147]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0K00IOY3ZXSM@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:21:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.6 (built Apr 26 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0K001943ZX2I@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:21:33 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:26:14 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck Golf (again) In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020808202614.0a65263f.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE References: <20020808183740.09661f22.ayzik@shaw.ca> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:40:58 -0700 Daniel wrote: > > Please look at my self-proclaimed Brainfuck Golf homepage > > ( http://brainfuck.sourceforge.net/ ), and tell me if > > you think anything's wrong with it. >=20 > Looks good, except that M=FCller's program in the logo has been tru= ncated to > say "He". Maybe a program to spell "Golf" instead? It should fit ne= atly. > ++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<-]>+.>+.---.------.>. Ok. Neat way to say "Golf", too :) __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\= / /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/= \ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 06:34:03 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d0XJ-000CQr-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:34:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:33:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d0X4-000CQl-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:33:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:33:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [65.162.45.194] (helo=luminet.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d0Wu-000CQf-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 06:33:37 +0300 Received: (from dseaman@localhost) by localhost (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA00205 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 22:40:45 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 22:40:45 -0500 From: David Seaman Message-Id: <200208090340.WAA00205@luminet.net> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Brainfuck golf X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dseaman@luminet.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dseaman@luminet.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I've got 51 (so far). David From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 07:55:18 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d1nq-000Cvh-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 07:55:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 07:55:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d1nF-000CvY-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 07:54:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 07:54:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d1n7-000CvS-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 07:54:25 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@[195.130.100.205]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g794pbK00736 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:51:38 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g794sCl00350 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:54:12 +0300 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:54:11 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Shortest representation of a number in Brainfuck Message-ID: <20020809075411.A347@mu.teiath.gr> References: <20020808195844.C11703@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ryan@michel.com.au on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 09:42:31AM +1000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 09:42:31AM +1000, Ryan Michel wrote: > 63 also equals 9 * 7 which is exact and requires no additional + or - thus > saving a character!!! Yes, I noted it in my reply (63=(3*3)*7), but I cannot explain it mathematically yet. -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 08:32:01 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2NP-000D8b-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:31:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:31:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2N5-000D8V-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:31:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:31:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [212.16.6.108] (helo=frox25.i989.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2Mw-000D8P-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:31:26 +0300 Received: (qmail 12364 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2002 04:29:22 -0000 Received: from heartw.ih (10.0.17.4) by nova.ih with SMTP; 9 Aug 2002 04:29:22 -0000 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:35:46 +0400 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <15132608970.20020809093546@frox25.i989.net> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.i989.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.i989.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello Daniel! Friday, August 09, 2002, 4:20:00 AM, you wrote: > The problem with that is we probably can't all post here at exactly the same > time, so it would be possible for someone to look at the solutions posted > so far, then repost one (perhaps slightly modified, conceivably even > improved) under his own name. None of us have any reason to distrust each > other that I know of, but I'd like to remove the possibility from > consideration entirely. So I'm thinking we choose some neutral person, send > solutions to him before the deadline, and have him post them all to the list > after the deadline. Yes, this is the kind of gentleman agreement and exactly the same problem worried my too on irc perlgolf :) Other movements are possibly - 1) publishing solutions in order from longer to shorter, 2) setting up automatized system like PGAS (http://perlgolf.sf.net), 3) or simply by publishing digital signature of your code, let's say md5 of file with only BF characters (no eols). Mine is a9668f9fa728527bee4bfc885551a85c. P.S. Current leaderboard is: Ryan, Nikita 55 David, Mtve 51 Bertram, Daniel, Al 49 Deadline is (url in one line): http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html? day=11&month=8&year=2002&hour=0&min=0&sec=0&p1=0 ---- Mtv Europe From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 08:41:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2Wp-000DDm-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:41:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:41:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2Wc-000DDg-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:41:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:41:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp-out-6.wanadoo.fr ([193.252.19.25] helo=mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2WP-000DDa-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:41:18 +0300 Received: from mel-rta8.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.79) by mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D49FD97002E7DBA for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:41:12 +0200 Received: from there (193.251.26.219) by mel-rta8.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D49FF79002B3913 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:41:12 +0200 Message-ID: <3D49FF79002B3913@mel-rta8.wanadoo.fr> (added by postmaster@wanadoo.fr) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" From: Jerome Quelin To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:40:56 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jquelin@wanadoo.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jquelin@wanadoo.fr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Vendredi 9 Ao=FBt 2002 04:00, Ryan Michel wrote : > so UTC is the exact same as Greenwich Mean Time?? GMT is the time at the (old) Royal Greenwich Observatory (in Greenwich), = not=20 to be confused with the Royal Greenwich Observatory located at Herstmonce= ux=20 Castle in Sussex, England. UTC is based on an average across multiple atomic clocks, and is kept wit= hin=20 0.9 seconds of GMT, through the insertion (or removal) of seconds. In oth= er=20 words, UTC matches GMT plus or minus up to 0.9 seconds, but UTC is not GM= T. GMT is used mainly by astronomers, UTC is the civilian reference, and the= re's=20 also Zulu time for militaries... Jerome --=20 jquelin@wanadoo.fr From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 08:51:11 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2g2-000DJ6-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:51:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:51:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2fr-000DIj-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:50:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:50:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2fa-000DIc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:50:43 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@[195.130.100.205]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g795lxK00862 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:47:59 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g795itk00402 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:44:55 +0300 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:44:55 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: More on Brainfuck Golf Message-ID: <20020809084455.C347@mu.teiath.gr> References: <20020808121419.2298f6b9.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cristofd@hevanet.com on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 07:05:03PM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 07:05:03PM -0700, Daniel wrote: > Looks great. One little problem though. It doesn't check the rule I said I > wasn't sure about, the one about not using more input than necessary. And if > that rule isn't enforced, the problem can be solved in 40 bytes. 25 :-) . -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 08:51:19 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2gA-000DJF-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:51:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:51:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2ft-000DIw-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:51:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:50:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2fk-000DIi-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:50:52 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@[195.130.100.205]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g795m2K00865 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:48:02 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g795kGG00405 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:46:16 +0300 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:46:16 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: More on Brainfuck Golf Message-ID: <20020809084616.D347@mu.teiath.gr> References: <20020808121419.2298f6b9.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020808192122.59e3c03e.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020808192122.59e3c03e.ayzik@shaw.ca>; from ayzik@shaw.ca on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 07:21:22PM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 07:21:22PM -0700, Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > Hm. Ok, I'll add it, but i'm not sure about it. What do other people think? Yes, go ahead and add it. Otherwise, the programs won't be really interesting, the user will do everything. -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 08:51:22 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2gA-000DJG-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:51:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:51:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2fs-000DIq-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:51:00 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:50:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d2fj-000DIk-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:50:51 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@[195.130.100.205]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g795m5K00868 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:48:05 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g7952oM00364 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:02:50 +0300 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:02:49 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules Message-ID: <20020809080249.B347@mu.teiath.gr> References: <2287573582.20020808210517@frox25.i989.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cristofd@hevanet.com on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 05:20:00PM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 05:20:00PM -0700, Daniel wrote: > consideration entirely. So I'm thinking we choose some neutral person, send > solutions to him before the deadline, and have him post them all to the list > after the deadline. I made a fatal error in my code[1], so I will probably have to drop out. I can be the program-pot, if no-one else pops up. Then the last entry must come in in Aug 11 2002 03:00:00 EEST, which is Aug 11 2002 00:00:00 UTC. [1] Argh... I used a _slightly_ wrong algorithm... Now I am at 59 and striving to get down :-( . -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 09:58:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d3j0-000Dpl-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:58:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:58:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d3id-000Dpd-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:57:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:57:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d3iT-000DpX-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:57:45 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g796vgP26910 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2002 23:57:42 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 23:57:33 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <15132608970.20020809093546@frox25.i989.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Yes, this is the kind of gentleman agreement and exactly the same problem > worried my too on irc perlgolf :) > > Other movements are possibly - > 1) publishing solutions in order from longer to shorter, > 2) setting up automatized system like PGAS (http://perlgolf.sf.net), > 3) or simply by publishing digital signature of your code, let's say md5 of > file with only BF characters (no eols). Mine is > a9668f9fa728527bee4bfc885551a85c. That last sounds like the easiest. Of course it might easily happen that someone else wrote exactly the same code, and they'd find that out when they got the same md5; but then they could rearrange the code (e.g. [>+<-] to [->+<]) or add a comment to get a different one. A simple newline-stripper is ,[----------[++++++++++.[-]],] (Using a uniform format for this is convenient but not imperative.) Anyway, mine is 6a200a99b072da27af815ecda3a083b9. > P.S. Current leaderboard is: > > Ryan, Nikita 55 > David, Mtve 51 > Bertram, Daniel, Al 49 > > Deadline is (url in one line): > http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html? > day=11&month=8&year=2002&hour=0&min=0&sec=0&p1=0 -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 10:31:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d4FQ-000E3d-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 10:31:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 10:31:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d4Ev-000E3X-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 10:31:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 10:31:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from kontent.kontent.de ([81.88.34.1] helo=kontent.de) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d4Em-000E3R-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 10:31:08 +0300 Received: from localhost (p508EB052.dip.t-dialin.net [80.142.176.82]) (authenticated as pruemm_org_002) by kontent.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g797Uqt10002 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:30:52 +0200 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@kontent.de Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:30:53 +0200 Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) From: Michael Pruemm To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mip@pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mip@pobox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > A simple newline-stripper is ,[----------[++++++++++.[-]],] Which is illegal code according to the contest rules because it would try decrementing 0 when the input contains e.g. a tab. - mip From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 11:21:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d516-000EQN-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:21:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:20:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d50p-000EQH-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:20:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:20:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from kontent.kontent.de ([81.88.34.1] helo=kontent.de) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d50f-000EQB-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:20:38 +0300 Received: from localhost (p508EB052.dip.t-dialin.net [80.142.176.82]) (authenticated as pruemm_org_002) by kontent.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g798KWt32257 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:20:32 +0200 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@kontent.de Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:20:34 +0200 Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) From: Michael Pruemm To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <15132608970.20020809093546@frox25.i989.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mip@pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mip@pobox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > P.S. Current leaderboard is: > > Ryan, Nikita 55 > David, Mtve 51 > Bertram, Daniel, Al 49 I have solution in 40 instructions. :-) - Michael From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 11:23:01 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d52t-000EUs-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:22:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:22:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d52f-000ER7-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:22:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:22:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d52X-000ER0-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:22:33 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g798MUP01114 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 01:22:30 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 01:22:22 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >> A simple newline-stripper is ,[----------[++++++++++.[-]],] > > Which is illegal code according to the contest rules because it would > try decrementing 0 when the input contains e.g. a tab. Of course. It isn't a submission to the contest, obviously, and I make no claims about its portability, suitability, utility, or any other ility. I just thought I might save a few people a few seconds. It would be easy enough to do a full strip-everything-but-brainfuck-commands program in brainfuck or C or whatever, but I didn't see the need. (I can strip everything but newlines easily with vi.) -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 11:25:56 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d55o-000EWL-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:25:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:25:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d55f-000EWF-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:25:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:25:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d55U-000EW8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:25:39 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g798PXP01186 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 01:25:34 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 01:25:25 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >> P.S. Current leaderboard is: >> >> Ryan, Nikita 55 >> David, Mtve 51 >> Bertram, Daniel, Al 49 > > I have solution in 40 instructions. :-) You realize the input is an EOF-terminated text stream, not one character? And you've tested your program, and also made sure it obeys all the rules? -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 12:16:23 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d5sV-000EuP-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:16:15 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:16:08 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d5s3-000EuJ-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:15:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:15:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d5rt-000EuD-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:15:38 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g799FZP02052 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 02:15:35 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 02:15:26 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <15132608970.20020809093546@frox25.i989.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Hello Daniel! > > Friday, August 09, 2002, 4:20:00 AM, you wrote: >> The problem with that is we probably can't all post here at exactly the same >> time, so it would be possible for someone to look at the solutions posted >> so far, then repost one (perhaps slightly modified, conceivably even >> improved) under his own name. None of us have any reason to distrust each >> other that I know of, but I'd like to remove the possibility from >> consideration entirely. So I'm thinking we choose some neutral person, send >> solutions to him before the deadline, and have him post them all to the list >> after the deadline. > > Yes, this is the kind of gentleman agreement and exactly the same problem > worried my too on irc perlgolf :) > > Other movements are possibly - > 1) publishing solutions in order from longer to shorter, > 2) setting up automatized system like PGAS (http://perlgolf.sf.net), > 3) or simply by publishing digital signature of your code, let's say md5 of > file with only BF characters (no eols). Mine is > a9668f9fa728527bee4bfc885551a85c. By the way. I just tracked down a handy online version of md5: http://pajhome.org.uk/crypt/md5/ Scroll down a bit, paste without newlines into "Input" under "Demonstration", and hit "MD5". I checked it versus the reference implementation for a 999-character string. -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 12:23:40 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d5zY-000Ezr-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:23:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:23:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d5zF-000Ezl-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:23:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:22:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mrwaynxd-new.lnk.telstra.net ([139.130.76.194] helo=gateway.michel.com.au) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d5yr-000Ew1-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:22:50 +0300 Received: from ork (ork.michel.com.au [203.18.139.105]) by gateway.michel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g799JN530594 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:19:25 +1000 From: "Ryan Michel" To: Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:23:14 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk X-list: misc alright my code is md5d as such: d010d9bea7b9f532f46d072458c982a0 I love this hacking the bf code down, still at 55 in two different ways. -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Daniel Sent: Friday, 9 August 2002 7:15 PM To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules > Hello Daniel! > > Friday, August 09, 2002, 4:20:00 AM, you wrote: >> The problem with that is we probably can't all post here at exactly the same >> time, so it would be possible for someone to look at the solutions posted >> so far, then repost one (perhaps slightly modified, conceivably even >> improved) under his own name. None of us have any reason to distrust each >> other that I know of, but I'd like to remove the possibility from >> consideration entirely. So I'm thinking we choose some neutral person, send >> solutions to him before the deadline, and have him post them all to the list >> after the deadline. > > Yes, this is the kind of gentleman agreement and exactly the same problem > worried my too on irc perlgolf :) > > Other movements are possibly - > 1) publishing solutions in order from longer to shorter, > 2) setting up automatized system like PGAS (http://perlgolf.sf.net), > 3) or simply by publishing digital signature of your code, let's say md5 of > file with only BF characters (no eols). Mine is > a9668f9fa728527bee4bfc885551a85c. By the way. I just tracked down a handy online version of md5: http://pajhome.org.uk/crypt/md5/ Scroll down a bit, paste without newlines into "Input" under "Demonstration", and hit "MD5". I checked it versus the reference implementation for a 999-character string. -Daniel. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 12:26:21 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d62D-000F0j-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:26:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:26:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d61x-000F0c-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:26:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:25:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd4mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d61k-000F0W-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:25:53 +0300 Received: from pd3mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.177]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0K00CGEKI7G1@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:18:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml4so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml4so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.148]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0K00I97ERK06@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 01:14:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0K0090BERJ5U@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 01:14:08 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 00:18:50 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules In-reply-to: <15132608970.20020809093546@frox25.i989.net> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020809001850.48160414.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <15132608970.20020809093546@frox25.i989.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:35:46 +0400 Mtv Europe wrote: > Other movements are possibly - > 2) setting up automatized system like PGAS (http://perlgolf.sf.net), I want to do that on http://brainfuck.sf.net/ I'll have to figure out MySQL first... __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 13:12:11 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d6kZ-000FMU-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:12:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:12:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d6kC-000FMO-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:11:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:11:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from kontent.kontent.de ([81.88.34.1] helo=kontent.de) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d6k2-000FMI-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:11:35 +0300 Received: from localhost (p508EB052.dip.t-dialin.net [80.142.176.82]) (authenticated as pruemm_org_002) by kontent.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g79ABTt23122 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 12:11:29 +0200 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@kontent.de Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 12:11:31 +0200 Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) From: Michael Pruemm To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <60636D60-AB80-11D6-8080-003065CC469E@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mip@pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mip@pobox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Well, I tried to solve the problem over breakfast, before my first cup of tea ;-) Since then I realized that I forgot one important property... so forget about my claim. - Michael From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 13:20:57 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d6t1-000FSN-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:20:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:20:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d6so-000FSH-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:20:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:20:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smarthost3.mail.uk.easynet.net ([212.135.6.13]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d6sf-000FSB-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:20:29 +0300 Received: from mail.datapro.co.uk ([212.74.18.17] helo=will.datapro.co.uk) by smarthost3.mail.uk.easynet.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17d6sc-000KwF-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:20:27 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20020809111750.00a67f58@hercules> X-Sender: will@hercules X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:19:49 +0100 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: William Wragg Subject: [lang] Brainfuck golf In-Reply-To: <200208090340.WAA00205@luminet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-42452371; boundary="=======3CBE5AAB=======" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: will@datapro.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: will@datapro.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --=======3CBE5AAB======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-42452371; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I only seem to be able to manage 51 - I need a re-think. Wm. --=======3CBE5AAB======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-42452371 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 --=======3CBE5AAB=======-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 13:25:38 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d6xa-000FXi-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:25:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:25:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d6x7-000FXZ-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:25:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:24:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: from kontent.kontent.de ([81.88.34.1] helo=kontent.de) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d6wy-000FXS-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:24:56 +0300 Received: from localhost (p508EB052.dip.t-dialin.net [80.142.176.82]) (authenticated as pruemm_org_002) by kontent.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g79AOpt30119 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 12:24:51 +0200 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@kontent.de Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 12:24:53 +0200 Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) From: Michael Pruemm To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <3E6AF494-AB82-11D6-8080-003065CC469E@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mip@pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mip@pobox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > (I can strip > everything but newlines easily with vi.) Use tr instead. It can strip everything. Something like tr -d '+-.,<>[]' < input >output will do it. If your tr supports character ranges, you might have to prefix some of the characters with \ though. - Michael From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 13:29:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d70x-000FYf-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:29:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:28:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d70n-000FYZ-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:28:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:28:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d70e-000FYT-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:28:44 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g79ASfP03165 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 03:28:42 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:28:33 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020808191929.C22152@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > (My second program loses against the first both with respect to > memory used (O(n) vs. O(1)) and with respect to the execution cost > (constant factor in O(n) is bigger)) Hey, I just found the worse one too; md5 a30d67f5df4c05ce8673873973c6627c. (Haven't been working on it much; offhand I doubt we'll beat 49.) -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 13:41:52 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d7DF-000Ffr-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:41:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:41:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d7Cq-000Ffl-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:41:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:41:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smarthost3.mail.uk.easynet.net ([212.135.6.13]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d7Ch-000Fff-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:41:11 +0300 Received: from mail.datapro.co.uk ([212.74.18.17] helo=will.datapro.co.uk) by smarthost3.mail.uk.easynet.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17d7Cf-000McR-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:41:09 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20020809113648.020e2f58@hercules> X-Sender: will@hercules X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:40:34 +0100 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi From: William Wragg Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules In-Reply-To: References: <15132608970.20020809093546@frox25.i989.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-42452371; boundary="=======687F2DBA=======" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: will@datapro.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: will@datapro.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --=======687F2DBA======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-42452371; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit OK, my effort so far as md5 is: 4ac9217b94636b64980ea3302ca8cbe1 At 10:15 09/08/2002, you wrote: > > Hello Daniel! > > > > Friday, August 09, 2002, 4:20:00 AM, you wrote: > >> The problem with that is we probably can't all post here at exactly > the same > >> time, so it would be possible for someone to look at the solutions posted > >> so far, then repost one (perhaps slightly modified, conceivably even > >> improved) under his own name. None of us have any reason to distrust each > >> other that I know of, but I'd like to remove the possibility from > >> consideration entirely. So I'm thinking we choose some neutral person, > send > >> solutions to him before the deadline, and have him post them all to > the list > >> after the deadline. > > > > Yes, this is the kind of gentleman agreement and exactly the same problem > > worried my too on irc perlgolf :) > > > > Other movements are possibly - > > 1) publishing solutions in order from longer to shorter, > > 2) setting up automatized system like PGAS (http://perlgolf.sf.net), > > 3) or simply by publishing digital signature of your code, let's say md5 of > > file with only BF characters (no eols). Mine is > > a9668f9fa728527bee4bfc885551a85c. > >By the way. I just tracked down a handy online version of md5: >http://pajhome.org.uk/crypt/md5/ >Scroll down a bit, paste without newlines into "Input" under >"Demonstration", and hit "MD5". I checked it versus the reference >implementation for a 999-character string. > >-Daniel. --=======687F2DBA======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-42452371 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 02/08/2002 --=======687F2DBA=======-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 14:32:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d7zq-000G7i-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:31:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:31:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d7zS-000G7b-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:31:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:31:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd5mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d7zK-000G7V-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:31:26 +0300 Received: from pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr1so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.232]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0K00ICZQOCOV@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:31:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml8so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml8so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.152]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0K00EHHQOCFL@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:31:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0K007DVQOBHC@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:31:24 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:36:06 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Brainfuck Golf on brainfuck.sourceforge.net To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020809043606.20434fa6.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hi all! I wrote the CGI interface (primitive right now) and the automatic solution-processing thingie. You can submit solutions to http://brainfuck.sourceforge.net/submit.html I promise not to cheat :) I have given up on trying to improve my program. The CGI right now is very very beta, please tell me if you find any bugs. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 14:57:22 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d8OD-000GVg-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:57:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:57:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d8Nh-000GVW-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:56:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:56:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d8NX-000GVQ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:56:28 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g79BuMP06357 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 04:56:23 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:56:13 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck Golf on brainfuck.sourceforge.net From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020809043606.20434fa6.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Hi all! > > I wrote the CGI interface (primitive right now) and the automatic > solution-processing thingie. You can submit solutions to > http://brainfuck.sourceforge.net/submit.html > > I promise not to cheat :) I have given up on trying to improve my > program. > > The CGI right now is very very beta, please tell me if you find any > bugs. Not exactly a bug, but it might be a good idea to mention that usernames must be lowercase only. I got a very vague error report. I assume things like an automatic leaderboard are to come later. (Is it structured so it's safe to submit multiple entries? And would it be safe for me to submit an incorrect one to test what happens?) As I understand it, the way to get into Google is to have other sites that are already listed link to yours. Assuming we care about that. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Aug 09 15:59:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d9M0-000HCp-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 15:58:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 15:58:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d9LV-000HCj-00; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 15:58:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 09 Aug 2002 15:58:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rama.poly.edu ([128.238.10.212]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17d9LN-000HCd-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 15:58:17 +0300 Received: from localhost (jcolag@localhost) by rama.poly.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA03657 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:55:51 -0400 (EDT) From: John Colagioia To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [essies] Status In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Oh, right. Essies. Didn't we finish those...? [read, read, read...] Oh. Guess we didn't. OK, here's the rundown (NB: This may or may not be the "sanitized" version; it's conceivable that there's a huge scandal here that I'm not going to tell you about. Probably not, though...). According to my records (a/k/a "saved e-mail"), judging was in mid- conversation, when it just...stopped. I was waiting to actually program something in each of the languages before judging them in their entirety, but then emergency jobs started popping up, and I've spent little time in front of my own computer... If the judges would like to "come in from the cold," so to speak, we can probably finish this off. I'm at a new full-time job, though, so I may only be checking e-mail once every few days ("this is different... how, John?"). Regarding the first Essies (which, I'll note without irony, *started* the tradition of confusing, long-term judging), the winner was Gerson Kurz, for the Sorted! language. On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > From the brainfuck golf proposals, the essies sprang to my mind. > > I guess you all guessed already that we haven't been actively judging the > entries for all this time. Some random notes about each entry have been > made, maybe by about two judges per entry, currently. John said (ages ago) > that he would summarise the comments, but is apparently waiting for every > judge to say something about every entry. When or if I receive any > summarised material, I'll put it onto the essies' pages (together with the > entries). > > In the meanwhile, the participants will probably want to publicise and > advertise their languages in the list. I guess there's no point keeping > them secret anyway, as there were entries that were made public before the > deadline already... For a convenience, I put up a browsing/downloading > area at http://esoteric.sange.fi/essie2/download > > Panu > > -- > > Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh > atehwa@iki.fi > > > > > > > From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 12:43:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSlg-000GtN-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSki-000Gs5-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:41:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:41:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [212.16.6.108] (helo=frox25.i989.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dDrD-0000Ax-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 20:47:27 +0300 Received: (qmail 20226 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2002 16:45:12 -0000 Received: from heartw.ih (10.0.17.4) by nova.ih with SMTP; 9 Aug 2002 16:45:12 -0000 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 21:51:45 +0400 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <59176774450.20020809215145@frox25.i989.net> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck Golf (again) In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.i989.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.i989.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello Daniel! Friday, August 09, 2002, 6:40:58 AM, you wrote: > Looks good, except that Müller's program in the logo has been truncated to > say "He". Maybe a program to spell "Golf" instead? It should fit neatly. > ++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<-]>+.>+.---.------.>. in this case you must do it _the most optimal way_ which is one char shorter i think: ++++++++++[>+++++++>+<<-]>+.+++[--<+++>]<.---.------.>>. :) ---- Mtv Europe From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 12:43:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSld-000Gsu-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:41 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSlP-000Gsi-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dRjn-000Gjl-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:36:43 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@[195.130.100.155]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g7A8XpK04697 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:33:52 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g7A8aiY00209 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:36:44 +0300 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:36:44 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules Message-ID: <20020810113644.A176@mu.teiath.gr> References: <15132608970.20020809093546@frox25.i989.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cristofd@hevanet.com on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 11:57:33PM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 11:57:33PM -0700, Daniel wrote: > > a9668f9fa728527bee4bfc885551a85c. > > Anyway, mine is 6a200a99b072da27af815ecda3a083b9. I'll add to these my 79abb31347549e5345b76e4e16f719a4. -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 12:43:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSle-000Gt5-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSlH-000Gsb-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dM79-000GYx-01 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:36:28 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g79EQTb29573 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:26:29 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g79EQT301221 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:26:29 +0200 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:26:28 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: More on Brainfuck Golf Message-ID: <20020809162628.B31243@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020808121419.2298f6b9.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020809084455.C347@mu.teiath.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020809084455.C347@mu.teiath.gr>; from ee4299@ee.teiath.gr on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 08:44:55AM +0300 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Al . Andreou wrote: > On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 07:05:03PM -0700, Daniel wrote: > > Looks great. One little problem though. It doesn't check the rule I said I > > wasn't sure about, the one about not using more input than necessary. And if > > that rule isn't enforced, the problem can be solved in 40 bytes. > > 25 :-) . You realize that the generated program will not get the string as input? Bertram, who can see how to get to 40 bytes, but not how to get 25 ... P.S.: md5sum for my 49 bytes program: 'good' version: 6a200a99b072da27af815ecda3a083b9 (and 95 others, among them Daniel's) 'bad' version: 7b61d506d66f90b443431c3a912108d2 (and 63 others, again Daniel's is among them) -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 12:43:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSlc-000Gsp-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:40 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSku-000GsG-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:41:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:41:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd4mq1so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dLLl-000GXl-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 04:47:29 +0300 Received: from pd2mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0L00H5ADAJZR@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:39:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pd4mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr1so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.212]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0L00GD2D4A5Y@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:36:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml7so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml7so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.151]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0L00163D4AOS@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:36:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0L00F0TD49ZO@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:36:10 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:40:58 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck Golf on brainfuck.sourceforge.net In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020809124058.37627f07.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020809043606.20434fa6.ayzik@shaw.ca> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:56:13 -0700 Daniel wrote: > Not exactly a bug, but it might be a good idea to mention that usernames > must be lowercase only. I got a very vague error report. Hm, are you sure about lowercase only? I just created a test user with name TEST, and submitted a program for him. Everything's fine. You can't have numbers and such, however. (mostly because I was too lazy to include them into the regexp at 3AM :) ) > I assume things like an automatic leaderboard are to come later. There is an automatic judge that outputs an html page. > (Is it structured so it's safe to submit multiple entries? And would it be > safe for me to submit an incorrect one to test what happens?) Right now there's only one entry per user. If you submit another one, your previous one gets deleted. Of course, I will add features with time, like multiple entries and some page where you can manage them from. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 12:43:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSlg-000GtL-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSkR-000Grm-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:41:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:41:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dM79-000GYx-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:36:27 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g79EgQb00967 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:42:26 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g79EgQJ01516 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:42:26 +0200 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:42:26 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: More on Brainfuck Golf Message-ID: <20020809164226.A1459@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020808121419.2298f6b9.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020808192122.59e3c03e.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020808192122.59e3c03e.ayzik@shaw.ca>; from ayzik@shaw.ca on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 07:21:22PM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:05:03 -0700 > Daniel wrote: > > > > I also wrote a Brainfuck interpreter in Python, with rigorous > > > error checking. It can work both as a stand-alone interpreter > > > and as the judging thingie (checks if output matches a required > > > one with the given input). It can also manage extended interpretation, > > > i.e. evaluating the output of a program as another program, automatically. > > > It's on http://lament.hypermart.net/brain.py > > > > Looks great. One little problem though. It doesn't check the rule I said I > > wasn't sure about, the one about not using more input than necessary. And if > > that rule isn't enforced, the problem can be solved in 40 bytes. > > Hm. Ok, I'll add it, but i'm not sure about it. What do other people think? Well, not enforcing it would mean that some people will find, say, their 'Hello, world!' program waiting for input and behaving strangely when it's given some. I think the rule is indeed necessary and should be enforced. regards, Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 12:43:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSle-000Gt9-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSl1-000GsN-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:41:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dM0M-000GYe-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:29:26 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g79G0Nb05860 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:00:24 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g79G0N202477 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:00:23 +0200 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:00:23 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf Message-ID: <20020809180023.A2364@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020808020343.B12247@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from pkalliok@cs.helsinki.fi on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 12:20:09PM +0300 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > I vote for allowing decrementing 0 though (and be it only so > > my quine is valid ;-), to be precise: > > You may decrement 0 up to 127 times and assume that all intermediate > > results are nonzero and that incrementing the number again as often > > as one decremented it will again yield zero (with the same intermediate > > I vote against. IIRC, at least the Unlambda and Thue implementations break > big time if you decrement zero. (But they implement arbitrary integers in > change :)) Hmm, I guess that's a good reason. On the other side, I find being allowed to use small negative numbers very useful; just imagine you'd want to implement a function which maps 1->10, 2->1, 3->9, 4->2, 5->3, 6->8. >+<--[>+<--[>+<-[>+++++<-[>+<+++[>+<++]]]]] is quite a bit shorter than >++++++++++<-[>---------<-[>++++++++<-[>-------<-[>+<-[>+++++<-]]]]] (and it should be pretty hard to improve upon this when negative numbers are forbidden - any takers?) Not to mention that negative numbers are also useful when you want to encode data - see, for example, my 550 character quine; it uses both tricks. regards, Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 12:43:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSlg-000GtO-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSka-000Gru-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:41:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:41:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [212.16.6.108] (helo=frox25.i989.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dDBX-00008f-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 09 Aug 2002 20:04:23 +0300 Received: (qmail 19491 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2002 15:35:26 -0000 Received: from heartw.ih (10.0.17.4) by nova.ih with SMTP; 9 Aug 2002 15:35:26 -0000 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:41:59 +0400 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <66172587571.20020809204159@frox25.i989.net> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules In-reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020809113648.020e2f58@hercules> References: <15132608970.20020809093546@frox25.i989.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20020809113648.020e2f58@hercules> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.i989.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.i989.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello William! Friday, August 09, 2002, 2:40:34 PM, you wrote: > OK, my effort so far as md5 is: Hmm, all 24 variations of mine gives different hashes. And since Nikita's system doesn't show current scores yet, here they are (with known md5es): Al 59 ? Ryan 55 d010d9bea7b9f532f46d072458c982a0 Nikita 55 ? William 51 4ac9217b94636b64980ea3302ca8cbe1 David 51 ? Mtve 51 a9668f9fa728527bee4bfc885551a85c Bertram 49 ? Daniel 49 6a200a99b072da27af815ecda3a083b9, a30d67f5df4c05ce8673873973c6627c ---- Mtv Europe From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 12:43:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSld-000Gt0-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dSl9-000GsU-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:42:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dM78-000GYx-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:36:26 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g79F9db02903 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:09:40 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g79F9dx01804 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:09:39 +0200 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:09:39 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck Golf (again) Message-ID: <20020809170939.B1459@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020808183740.09661f22.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cristofd@hevanet.com on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 07:40:58PM -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de id g79F9db02903 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Daniel wrote: > > Please look at my self-proclaimed Brainfuck Golf homepage > > ( http://brainfuck.sourceforge.net/ ), and tell me if > > you think anything's wrong with it. >=20 > Looks good, except that M=FCller's program in the logo has been truncat= ed to > say "He". Maybe a program to spell "Golf" instead? It should fit neatly. > ++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<-]>+.>+.---.------.>. ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++>+<<<-]>+.[>+<-]>.---.------.>. (is 2 characters shorter :) Bertram *wonders what the site does right now* ... seems to accept everything; is there any testing/scoring/whatever done? or are the entries just stored somewhere? or even worse, mailed to someone? *g* --=20 `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 14:24:16 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dULl-000H7Q-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:24:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:23:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dULL-000H7E-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:23:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:23:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dULD-000H72-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:23:31 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g79JKQT02990 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 12:20:27 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:20:19 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: [Friends-of-brainfuck] Re: Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020809142522.A31243@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >> And at that point you may as well just say "maximum cell index which the >> pointer has reached", because a person who moves the pointer to the right >> and then doesn't do anything there should not be rewarded. > > That's probably the easier definition indeed, let's go for it. Cool. >> That's what I was thinking--though we'd have to stipulate semantics for [ >> and ] more exactly then; I'd vote for jump-to-after for both. > > So, the program > [+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>] > costs 1 for [, and the program > ++[-] > costs 7 for ++[-]-], right (actually, it's kind of nice to think of the > []-pair as a single opcode, magically appearing at two positions in the > program, and it also gives a very good reason why the brackets have to > be paired) Right, if I'm understanding you correctly. ([] construed as a single construct gives the same execution cost as jump-to-after for [ and ], right? I mean you'd then say something like "++[-] costs 7 for ++t-t-t" because it's not specified where the tests take place, but it's the same cost?) It is nice to be able to think of [] as one construct; it's also nice to be able to say things like "eight one-character commands" instead of "six one-character commands and a looping construct". I tend to choose different descriptions based on context. I know the single-construct interpretation is the more popular on the web. In any case, the jump-to-matching semantics also give the same execution cost as the above two if [ and ] are not exempt from the subsequent autoincrement of the pc; so Nikita's interpreter's measure of instructions executed should give the same result, if changed to return that count for the first program in the chain. >>> (My second program loses against the first both with respect to >>> memory used (O(n) vs. O(1)) and with respect to the execution cost >>> (constant factor in O(n) is bigger)) >> >> Okay, so we're conducting tiebreaker (in either case) based on which does >> best on large inputs--both in terms of length of input and in terms of ASCII >> value of the inputs, with the former predominating? Or...? > > Hmm, I guess we should specify a testcase for each contest which will > be used for counting memory/number of steps for the tiebreaker. I was thinking that at first; then I thought your idea of comparing big-O status was more correct; but actually a sufficiently large testcase should give the same result anyway, and will be easier to calculate. >> (I'm happy with either execution cost or memory use as a tiebreaker. The >> latter would probably be less trouble to calculate exactly, as a rule.) > > (My personal preference would be used memory first (after all we're > optimizing for size ;-) ), used execution cost second) That'd be fine too. Of course it would represent a change in the presently posted rules. Maybe the text-to-bf problem should be called Round Zero of Brainfuck Golf, since it's sort of a beta version of the contest? -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 14:24:16 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dULl-000H7L-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:24:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:23:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dULJ-000H78-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:23:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:23:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dULB-000H72-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:23:29 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g79JHVT02850 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 12:17:31 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:17:24 -0700 Subject: [lang] FW: [Friends-of-brainfuck] Re: Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020809142522.A31243@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hi, > >> If and when we start doing brainfuck golf for real, do we call entries with > >> different but equally short code a tie? Or do we use a tiebreaker (e.g. an > >> idealized version of execution time), and then call it a tie if that matches > >> as well? > > > > I think used memory (that is, maximum cell index which was either > > decremented or incremented or tested against zero) makes a nice > > tie breaker; > > I agree. Though I vote for counting input or output as "use" of a cell also. Oops. Of course. > And at that point you may as well just say "maximum cell index which the > pointer has reached", because a person who moves the pointer to the right > and then doesn't do anything there should not be rewarded. That's probably the easier definition indeed, let's go for it. > execution time - or, maybe better, cost - requires an > > agreement on what certain operations cost - assuming that '+' costs > > 1, does '++++' cost 1 (just a single addition, using an optimizing > > bf compiler) or 4? - but would work, too. (Simply counting the > > number of opcodes executed, counting [ and ] as an opcode, > > should be good enough.) > > That's what I was thinking--though we'd have to stipulate semantics for [ > and ] more exactly then; I'd vote for jump-to-after for both. So, the program [+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>] costs 1 for [, and the program ++[-] costs 7 for ++[-]-], right (actually, it's kind of nice to think of the []-pair as a single opcode, magically appearing at two positions in the program, and it also gives a very good reason why the brackets have to be paired) > > (My second program loses against the first both with respect to > > memory used (O(n) vs. O(1)) and with respect to the execution cost > > (constant factor in O(n) is bigger)) > > Okay, so we're conducting tiebreaker (in either case) based on which does > best on large inputs--both in terms of length of input and in terms of ASCII > value of the inputs, with the former predominating? Or...? Hmm, I guess we should specify a testcase for each contest which will be used for counting memory/number of steps for the tiebreaker. > (I'm happy with either execution cost or memory use as a tiebreaker. The > latter would probably be less trouble to calculate exactly, as a rule.) (My personal preference would be used memory first (after all we're optimizing for size ;-) ), used execution cost second) Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 14:30:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dURt-000H8s-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:30:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:30:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dURh-000H8m-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:30:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:30:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dURY-000H8d-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:30:04 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g79GW4T19191 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:32:04 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:31:56 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: [Friends-of-brainfuck] Re: Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020809142522.A31243@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >> And at that point you may as well just say "maximum cell index which the >> pointer has reached", because a person who moves the pointer to the right >> and then doesn't do anything there should not be rewarded. > > That's probably the easier definition indeed, let's go for it. Cool. >> That's what I was thinking--though we'd have to stipulate semantics for [ >> and ] more exactly then; I'd vote for jump-to-after for both. > > So, the program > [+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>] > costs 1 for [, and the program > ++[-] > costs 7 for ++[-]-], right (actually, it's kind of nice to think of the > []-pair as a single opcode, magically appearing at two positions in the > program, and it also gives a very good reason why the brackets have to > be paired) Right, if I'm understanding you correctly. ([] construed as a single construct gives the same execution cost as jump-to-after for [ and ], right? I mean you'd then say something like "++[-] costs 7 for ++t-t-t" because it's not specified where the tests take place, but it's the same cost?) It is nice to be able to think of [] as one construct; it's also nice to be able to say things like "eight one-character commands" instead of "six one-character commands and a looping construct". I tend to choose different descriptions based on context. I know the single-construct interpretation is the more popular on the web. In any case, the jump-to-matching semantics also give the same execution cost as the above two if [ and ] are not exempt from the subsequent autoincrement of the pc; so Nikita's interpreter's measure of instructions executed should give the same result, if changed to return that count for the first program in the chain. >>> (My second program loses against the first both with respect to >>> memory used (O(n) vs. O(1)) and with respect to the execution cost >>> (constant factor in O(n) is bigger)) >> >> Okay, so we're conducting tiebreaker (in either case) based on which does >> best on large inputs--both in terms of length of input and in terms of ASCII >> value of the inputs, with the former predominating? Or...? > > Hmm, I guess we should specify a testcase for each contest which will > be used for counting memory/number of steps for the tiebreaker. I was thinking that at first; then I thought your idea of comparing big-O status was more correct; but actually a sufficiently large testcase should give the same result anyway, and will be easier to calculate. >> (I'm happy with either execution cost or memory use as a tiebreaker. The >> latter would probably be less trouble to calculate exactly, as a rule.) > > (My personal preference would be used memory first (after all we're > optimizing for size ;-) ), used execution cost second) That'd be fine too. Of course it would represent a change in the presently posted rules. Maybe the text-to-bf problem should be called Round Zero of Brainfuck Golf, since it's sort of a beta version of the contest? -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 14:33:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dUUQ-000H9t-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:33:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:32:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dUU9-000H9m-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:32:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:32:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dUU1-000H8d-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:32:37 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g79F1mP13950 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:01:48 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:01:40 -0700 Subject: [lang] FW: [Friends-of-brainfuck] Re: Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020809142522.A31243@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hi, > >> If and when we start doing brainfuck golf for real, do we call entries with > >> different but equally short code a tie? Or do we use a tiebreaker (e.g. an > >> idealized version of execution time), and then call it a tie if that matches > >> as well? > > > > I think used memory (that is, maximum cell index which was either > > decremented or incremented or tested against zero) makes a nice > > tie breaker; > > I agree. Though I vote for counting input or output as "use" of a cell also. Oops. Of course. > And at that point you may as well just say "maximum cell index which the > pointer has reached", because a person who moves the pointer to the right > and then doesn't do anything there should not be rewarded. That's probably the easier definition indeed, let's go for it. > execution time - or, maybe better, cost - requires an > > agreement on what certain operations cost - assuming that '+' costs > > 1, does '++++' cost 1 (just a single addition, using an optimizing > > bf compiler) or 4? - but would work, too. (Simply counting the > > number of opcodes executed, counting [ and ] as an opcode, > > should be good enough.) > > That's what I was thinking--though we'd have to stipulate semantics for [ > and ] more exactly then; I'd vote for jump-to-after for both. So, the program [+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>] costs 1 for [, and the program ++[-] costs 7 for ++[-]-], right (actually, it's kind of nice to think of the []-pair as a single opcode, magically appearing at two positions in the program, and it also gives a very good reason why the brackets have to be paired) > > (My second program loses against the first both with respect to > > memory used (O(n) vs. O(1)) and with respect to the execution cost > > (constant factor in O(n) is bigger)) > > Okay, so we're conducting tiebreaker (in either case) based on which does > best on large inputs--both in terms of length of input and in terms of ASCII > value of the inputs, with the former predominating? Or...? Hmm, I guess we should specify a testcase for each contest which will be used for counting memory/number of steps for the tiebreaker. > (I'm happy with either execution cost or memory use as a tiebreaker. The > latter would probably be less trouble to calculate exactly, as a rule.) (My personal preference would be used memory first (after all we're optimizing for size ;-) ), used execution cost second) Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 15:41:44 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dVYn-000HGC-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:41:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:41:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dVY7-000HG6-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:40:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:40:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dVXz-000HG0-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:40:47 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7ACejT10908 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:40:45 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:40:32 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020809180023.A2364@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >> I vote against. IIRC, at least the Unlambda and Thue implementations break >> big time if you decrement zero. (But they implement arbitrary integers in >> change :)) > > Hmm, I guess that's a good reason. > > On the other side, I find being allowed to use small negative numbers > very useful; just imagine you'd want to implement a function which maps > 1->10, 2->1, 3->9, 4->2, 5->3, 6->8. If I ever want that, I'll accept the consequences. :) >> +<--[>+<--[>+<-[>+++++<-[>+<+++[>+<++]]]]] > > is quite a bit shorter than >> ++++++++++<-[>---------<-[>++++++++<-[>-------<-[>+<-[>+++++<-]]]]] > > (and it should be pretty hard to improve upon this when negative > numbers are forbidden - any takers?) Not without using more memory. I'm fiddling with different solutions, but I've got to go sleep soon. I doubt I can trim a dozen, anyway. > Not to mention that negative numbers are also useful when > you want to encode data - see, for example, my 550 character > quine; it uses both tricks. And wraparound as well. Mine, completely portable, is 889 bytes at present. (I'll work on it later, I think.) Whether something on the order of a 40% reduction in the length of some programs warrants allowing negative numbers in the language is a matter of taste. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 15:46:28 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dVdM-000HHc-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:46:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:46:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dVcn-000HHW-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:45:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:45:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dVcf-000HHQ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:45:37 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7ACjVT10981 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:45:31 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 05:45:18 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: More on Brainfuck Golf From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020809162628.B31243@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > P.S.: > md5sum for my 49 bytes program: > 'good' version: 6a200a99b072da27af815ecda3a083b9 > (and 95 others, among them Daniel's) Not that it matters anymore, but mine is that one, not one of the 95 others... -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 16:03:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dVtU-000HJP-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:03:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:02:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dVtF-000HJJ-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:02:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:02:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dVt6-000HJD-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:02:37 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7AD2YT11282 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 06:02:34 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 06:02:21 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck Golf on brainfuck.sourceforge.net From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020809124058.37627f07.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >> Not exactly a bug, but it might be a good idea to mention that usernames >> must be lowercase only. I got a very vague error report. > > Hm, are you sure about lowercase only? I just created a test user > with name TEST, and submitted a program for him. Everything's fine. > You can't have numbers and such, however. (mostly because I was > too lazy to include them into the regexp at 3AM :) ) It was fine when I went back to test it too, so I don't know what was wrong. >> I assume things like an automatic leaderboard are to come later. > > There is an automatic judge that outputs an html page. > >> (Is it structured so it's safe to submit multiple entries? And would it be >> safe for me to submit an incorrect one to test what happens?) > > Right now there's only one entry per user. If you submit another one, > your previous one gets deleted. > > Of course, I will add features with time, like multiple entries and > some page where you can manage them from. > Right now it's one entry per user. > Incorrect entries are ignored. But you will only know if it's incorrect > after the contest is over (the programs aren't checked until the deadline) It might be nice to change that sometime, and set it up so when you submit an entry it's checked immediately, its properties are calculated and put on a publicly visible leaderboard as in Perl Golf, or an error message returned if it's invalid. Thinking about it: the length should appear on the leaderboard, but memory usage (and execution cost if you decide to add that as a second tiebreaker as per Bertram's suggestion) should not, because they might give too much of a hint about the algorithm. It should just tell tiebreaker outcomes. Hmm, and it could tell that very concisely. Two reasonable formats: 1. Bertram 61 2. daniel 63 Mtve 63 4. Wm 63 1. Bertram 61 2. daniel 63 2. Mtve 63 4. Wm 63 Both of these say that Wm lost the tiebreaker to daniel and Mtve, who tied each other in it and are thus solidly tied. And this should just require a small additional check when printing the rank number. Just a thought. We can discuss it when normal communication channels are reopened. :) -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 17:12:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dWyH-000HNc-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:12:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:11:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dWxj-000HND-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:11:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:11:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from artemis.ee.teiath.gr ([195.130.107.17]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dWxb-000HN5-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:11:19 +0300 Received: from mu.42.gr (root@[195.130.100.194]) by artemis.ee.teiath.gr (8.11.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g7AE8VK05436 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:08:32 +0300 Received: (from andreou@localhost) by mu.42.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) id g7AEAhZ07242 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:10:43 +0300 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:10:43 +0300 From: "Al . Andreou" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: braifuck golf rules Message-ID: <20020810171043.A5165@mu.teiath.gr> References: <15132608970.20020809093546@frox25.i989.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20020809113648.020e2f58@hercules> <66172587571.20020809204159@frox25.i989.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <66172587571.20020809204159@frox25.i989.net>; from mtve@frox25.i989.net on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 08:41:59PM +0400 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ee4299@ee.teiath.gr Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 08:41:59PM +0400, Mtv Europe wrote: > Al 59 ? 6e818bc5867f60c4e15241d6a52e14cc -- Al. Andreou, ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr. | When everything else fails, http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ | this won't work either. . . From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 17:23:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dX9R-000HP4-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:23:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:23:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dX9C-000HOy-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:23:19 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:23:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from wells.tecc.co.uk ([195.217.37.90] helo=seatbooker.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dX95-000HOs-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:23:11 +0300 Received: from basingstoke.tecc.co.uk (basingstoke.tecc.co.uk [195.217.37.75]) by seatbooker.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10711 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2002 15:14:02 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 15:14:01 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <200208091414.PAA10711@seatbooker.net> From: Mike Taylor To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-reply-to: (message from John Colagioia on Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:55:51 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: [lang] Re: [essies] Status References: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@seatbooker.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@seatbooker.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:55:51 -0400 (EDT) > From: John Colagioia > > If the judges would like to "come in from the cold," so to speak, we > can probably finish this off. I'm at a new full-time job, though, > so I may only be checking e-mail once every few days ("this is > different... how, John?"). > > Regarding the first Essies (which, I'll note without irony, > *started* the tradition of confusing, long-term judging), the winner > was Gerson Kurz, for the Sorted! language. It's obviously time to launch the Judgies -- that is, the Esoteric Judging Paradigms competition. _/|_ _______________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "I have no idea what a `strong' or a `weak' verb is, and I truly hope I never find out what a `turbo verb' is, but I usually have a pretty good idea what the *right* verb is" -- Jane MacDonald. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 19:36:52 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dZE9-000HVy-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:36:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:36:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dZDg-000HVs-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:36:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:35:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from eden.suomi.net ([212.50.131.142]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dZDY-000HVm-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:35:56 +0300 Received: from pollonkangas.edu.ouka.fi (addr-213-139-181-11.suomi.net [213.139.181.11]) by eden.suomi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H0M00IL3ZFVZD@eden.suomi.net> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:35:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: by pollonkangas.edu.ouka.fi (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 26E4952C32; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:35:59 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:35:59 +0300 From: Jussi Maatta To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020810163559.GB8548@pollonkangas.edu.ouka.fi> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [lang] (no subject) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jumaatt@pollonkangas.edu.ouka.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jumaatt@pollonkangas.edu.ouka.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc help From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 19:37:18 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dZEo-000HWR-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:37:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:37:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dZEY-000HWA-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:36:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:36:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from eden.suomi.net ([212.50.131.142]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dZEQ-000HW4-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:36:50 +0300 Received: from pollonkangas.edu.ouka.fi (addr-213-139-181-11.suomi.net [213.139.181.11]) by eden.suomi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H0M00ILDZHDZD@eden.suomi.net> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:36:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: by pollonkangas.edu.ouka.fi (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 261CC52C32; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:36:57 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:36:56 +0300 From: Jussi Maatta Subject: [lang] oops To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020810163656.GC8548@pollonkangas.edu.ouka.fi> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jumaatt@pollonkangas.edu.ouka.fi Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jumaatt@pollonkangas.edu.ouka.fi Precedence: bulk X-list: misc sorry, I meant to send that message to the mailinglist software, not = to the list :) jussi m=E4=E4tt=E4 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 21:05:01 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dabd-000Hci-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:04:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:04:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dabE-000Hcc-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:04:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:04:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dab6-000HcW-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:04:20 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7AI4Ib07617 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:04:19 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g7AI4IB18692 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:04:18 +0200 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:04:18 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf Message-ID: <20020810200418.A18419@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020809180023.A2364@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cristofd@hevanet.com on Sat, Aug 10, 2002 at 05:40:32AM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Daniel wrote: > >> I vote against. IIRC, at least the Unlambda and Thue implementations break > >> big time if you decrement zero. (But they implement arbitrary integers in > >> change :)) > > > > Hmm, I guess that's a good reason. > > > > On the other side, I find being allowed to use small negative numbers > > very useful; just imagine you'd want to implement a function which maps > > 1->10, 2->1, 3->9, 4->2, 5->3, 6->8. > > If I ever want that, I'll accept the consequences. :) > > >> +<--[>+<--[>+<-[>+++++<-[>+<+++[>+<++]]]]] > > > > is quite a bit shorter than > >> ++++++++++<-[>---------<-[>++++++++<-[>-------<-[>+<-[>+++++<-]]]]] > > > > (and it should be pretty hard to improve upon this when negative > > numbers are forbidden - any takers?) > > Not without using more memory. I'm fiddling with different solutions, but > I've got to go sleep soon. I doubt I can trim a dozen, anyway. > > > Not to mention that negative numbers are also useful when > > you want to encode data - see, for example, my 550 character > > quine; it uses both tricks. > > And wraparound as well. Hmm, fixing that (in the obvious way, that is, by changing the two [+>+<] type loops which cause overflows back to [->-<] loops) costs 27 characters. That makes 577 characters. --- 8< --- 8< --- 8< --- 8< --- 8< --- 8< --- 8< --- 8< --- self reproducer bootstrap - use with itself as input -[,>+++++[<------->-]<] ++++[>+++++++<-]>[>+++++++<-]>[-[>>+<<-]>>]+ [43 (76x) -> 0 ++++ <------------------------------------------- [45 (17x) -> -3 -- <- [46 ( 3x) -> +4 ++++++ < [60 (31x) -> +1 ---- <------------- [62 (29x) -> -1 - <- [91 (17x) -> +2 ++ <---------------------------- [93 (17x) -> -2 --- <- [>[-]]]]]]]]<,+]>--- EOF ( 1x) -> -4 +[---->]< # ++++[[->>>-<<<]<++++]>++++>>- [ +[+<<-[>]>]<<[<]>>++++++[-<<++++++++++>>]<<++.+> [<++>[->>-<<]]+++++[-<---->]>>[+<<+<.>>>]<< [---[-<+++>[+++<++++++++++++++>[+++++[-<+++++>]<+>]]]]>+++>> ] <<<<[.<] --- 8< --- 8< --- 8< --- 8< --- 8< --- 8< --- 8< --- 8< --- As before, the bootstrap step requires a 16 bit bf interpreter; the generated quine only uses numbers -127 to 255 as cell values. (Hmm, I wonder if RLE still pays off here ... or maybe RLE just for '+' and '-' characters ... my guess is that the code would become too much complicated though so this wouldn't pay off) > Mine, completely portable, is 889 bytes at present. > (I'll work on it later, I think.) Whether something on the order of a 40% > reduction in the length of some programs warrants allowing negative numbers > in the language is a matter of taste. Hmm, I just feel it gives some interesting opportunities for optimization which I wouldn't be happy about to miss. Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 21:15:01 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dalM-000Hes-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:14:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:14:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dal6-000Hem-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:14:40 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:14:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17daky-000Heg-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:14:32 +0300 Received: from ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.15]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7AIEUb07969 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:14:31 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by ganymed.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g7AIEUo18772 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:14:30 +0200 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:14:30 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf Message-ID: <20020810201430.B18419@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <20020809142522.A31243@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cristofd@hevanet.com on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 09:31:56AM -0700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Daniel wrote: > >> That's what I was thinking--though we'd have to stipulate semantics for [ > >> and ] more exactly then; I'd vote for jump-to-after for both. > > > > So, the program > > [+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>] > > costs 1 for [, and the program > > ++[-] > > costs 7 for ++[-]-], right (actually, it's kind of nice to think of the > > []-pair as a single opcode, magically appearing at two positions in the > > program, and it also gives a very good reason why the brackets have to > > be paired) > > Right, if I'm understanding you correctly. > ([] construed as a single construct gives the same execution cost as > jump-to-after for [ and ], right? Right. The thought popped up because of the asymmetry there - first check done in [, all others in ]. > >>> (My second program loses against the first both with respect to > >>> memory used (O(n) vs. O(1)) and with respect to the execution cost > >>> (constant factor in O(n) is bigger)) > >> > >> Okay, so we're conducting tiebreaker (in either case) based on which does > >> best on large inputs--both in terms of length of input and in terms of ASCII > >> value of the inputs, with the former predominating? Or...? > > > > Hmm, I guess we should specify a testcase for each contest which will > > be used for counting memory/number of steps for the tiebreaker. > > I was thinking that at first; then I thought your idea of comparing big-O > status was more correct; but actually a sufficiently large testcase should > give the same result anyway, and will be easier to calculate. I'm trying to get around having to do a complete complexity analysis for the entries - especially as we'd have to include the constant factors. > >> (I'm happy with either execution cost or memory use as a tiebreaker. The > >> latter would probably be less trouble to calculate exactly, as a rule.) > > > > (My personal preference would be used memory first (after all we're > > optimizing for size ;-) ), used execution cost second) > > That'd be fine too. Of course it would represent a change in the presently > posted rules. Maybe the text-to-bf problem should be called Round Zero of > Brainfuck Golf, since it's sort of a beta version of the contest? That's fine with me - the task popped up quite randomly too, and there was no organization anyway. The only thing that made this into a competition was that you didn't provide a source code but just announced the size. regards, Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 21:53:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dbN3-000Hi9-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:53:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:53:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dbMj-000Hi3-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:53:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:53:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from f126.law7.hotmail.com ([216.33.237.126] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dbMa-000Hhx-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:53:24 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:53:22 -0700 Received: from 212.171.120.235 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:53:22 GMT X-Originating-IP: [212.171.120.235] From: "Babbo Natale" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] ? Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:53:22 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Aug 2002 18:53:22.0839 (UTC) FILETIME=[33890270:01C2409F] X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ho_molti_mac@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ho_molti_mac@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I can't understand why my messages from mamino@student.dm.unipi.it (a subscribed address) aren't delivered to the list... Can you please help me? M2. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Aug 10 22:03:27 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dbWE-000HjX-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 22:03:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 22:03:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dbW1-000HjR-00; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 22:03:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 10 Aug 2002 22:03:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from f149.law7.hotmail.com ([216.33.237.149] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dbVt-000HjL-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 22:03:01 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:02:59 -0700 Received: from 212.171.120.235 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:02:59 GMT X-Originating-IP: [212.171.120.235] From: "Babbo Natale" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] Fwd: brainf*** golf Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:02:59 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Aug 2002 19:02:59.0740 (UTC) FILETIME=[8B651DC0:01C240A0] X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ho_molti_mac@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ho_molti_mac@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc OK, I will forward it from here :) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 01:34:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Marcello Mamino To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: brainf*** golf Got 49, md5: 2600e509d1c4a54c87de3dbb97f3feef (To avoid md5 coincidences I have added a bit of text at the ed of the program...) Marcello. PS: A smaller version of the "Portable Brainf*** Interpreter", compliant with the "old" 30K memory requirement. char m[65000],*r=m,*n[99],**s=n,*p=m+32500,d,c;main(){for(read(0,r,32000); c=*r;r++)c-'['||(*p?*s++=r,3:d++),c-']'||(!d?r=--*--s,7:d--),d||(p+=c=='>' ,p-=c=='<',*p+=c=='+',*p-=c=='-',c-'.'||write(1,p,1),c-','||read(2,p,1));} _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 00:59:22 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17deGQ-000HrM-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 00:59:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 00:59:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17deFm-000HrG-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 00:58:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 00:58:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17deFd-000HrA-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 00:58:26 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7ALwMT25384 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:58:23 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:58:09 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Fwd: brainf*** golf From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Got 49, > > md5: 2600e509d1c4a54c87de3dbb97f3feef (To avoid md5 coincidences I have > added a bit of text at the ed of the program...) Interesting. Have you yet submitted it on the web? http://brainfuck.sourceforge.net/submit.html > PS: A smaller version of the "Portable Brainf*** Interpreter", compliant > with the "old" 30K memory requirement. > > char m[65000],*r=m,*n[99],**s=n,*p=m+32500,d,c;main(){for(read(0,r,32000); > c=*r;r++)c-'['||(*p?*s++=r,3:d++),c-']'||(!d?r=--*--s,7:d--),d||(p+=c=='>' > ,p-=c=='<',*p+=c=='+',*p-=c=='-',c-'.'||write(1,p,1),c-','||read(2,p,1));} Nice. I'm having a look at it now. Are the three and the seven decorative? -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 01:34:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17deoC-000Hte-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:34:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:34:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17denl-000HtY-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:33:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:33:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd3mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dend-000HtS-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:33:34 +0300 Received: from pd5mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.233]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0N00ITVFZUGJ@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:33:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml7so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml7so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.151]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0N00M5YFZUK0@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:33:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0N0096GFZTV9@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:33:30 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:38:31 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Brainfuck Golf To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020810153831.28e88708.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello. Sorry for the current lack of leaderboard on brainfuck.sourceforge.net - I'll implement that for the next contest. By the way, the deadline is in one and a half hours from now. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 01:56:57 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dfAA-000Hw9-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:56:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:56:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17df9p-000Hw3-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:56:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:56:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd5mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17df9h-000Hvx-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:56:21 +0300 Received: from pd5mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr1so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.232]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0N0003SGYM7A@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:54:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml2so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml2so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.146]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0N00D3UGYM2I@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:54:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0N00JF7GYMNS@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:54:22 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:59:23 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck Golf (again) In-reply-to: <20020809170939.B1459@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020810155923.39452911.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020808183740.09661f22.ayzik@shaw.ca> <20020809170939.B1459@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, 09 Aug 2002 17:09:39 +0200 Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > *wonders what the site does right now* ... seems to accept everything; > is there any testing/scoring/whatever done? or are the entries just > stored somewhere? or even worse, mailed to someone? *g* Right now, it accepts anything - but only the last entry is considered; and puts it into a database. Then the automatic thingie processes the entries and creates a page with the results. This is a rather stupid way of doing it, so I'll change it for the next contest. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 02:38:34 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dfoM-000Hyt-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 02:38:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 02:38:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dfnr-000Hyn-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 02:37:51 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 02:37:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from f12.law7.hotmail.com ([216.33.237.12] helo=hotmail.com) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dfnj-000Hyh-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 02:37:43 +0300 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:37:41 -0700 Received: from 212.171.126.102 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 23:37:40 GMT X-Originating-IP: [212.171.126.102] From: "Babbo Natale" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Bcc: Subject: [lang] Re: Fwd: brainf*** golf Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 23:37:40 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Aug 2002 23:37:41.0055 (UTC) FILETIME=[EB0634F0:01C240C6] X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ho_molti_mac@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ho_molti_mac@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > > PS: A smaller version of the "Portable Brainf*** Interpreter", compliant > > with the "old" 30K memory requirement. > > > > char >m[65000],*r=m,*n[99],**s=n,*p=m+32500,d,c;main(){for(read(0,r,32000); > > >c=*r;r++)c-'['||(*p?*s++=r,3:d++),c-']'||(!d?r=--*--s,7:d--),d||(p+=c=='>' > > >,p-=c=='<',*p+=c=='+',*p-=c=='-',c-'.'||write(1,p,1),c-','||read(2,p,1));} > >Nice. I'm having a look at it now. Are the three and the seven decorative? 37 is my definition of random number :). M2. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 03:15:12 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dgNv-000IAD-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:15:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:15:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dgNa-000IA4-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:14:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:14:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dgNR-000I9y-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:14:37 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7B0EYT29070 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:14:35 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:14:21 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Fwd: brainf*** golf From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > >>> PS: A smaller version of the "Portable Brainf*** Interpreter", compliant >>> with the "old" 30K memory requirement. >>> >>> char >> m[65000],*r=m,*n[99],**s=n,*p=m+32500,d,c;main(){for(read(0,r,32000); >>> >> c=*r;r++)c-'['||(*p?*s++=r,3:d++),c-']'||(!d?r=--*--s,7:d--),d||(p+=c=='>' >>> >> ,p-=c=='<',*p+=c=='+',*p-=c=='-',c-'.'||write(1,p,1),c-','||read(2,p,1));} >> >> Nice. I'm having a look at it now. Are the three and the seven decorative? > > 37 is my definition of random number :). Ah. You know that's a magician's trick, right? "Think of a number between one and fifty. It has to be two different digits, and they both have to be odd. Do you have it?" "Yes." "37." -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 03:31:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dgdl-000IC0-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:31:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:31:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dgdR-000IBu-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:31:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:31:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dgdI-000IBl-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:31:01 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7B0UwT29630 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:30:58 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:30:45 -0700 Subject: [lang] Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020810155923.39452911.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc A possible problem for the next contest: A common definition of natural numbers, due to John von Neumann, defines each as the set of all the preceding ones. For instance: 0 = {} 1 = {{}} 2 = {{},{{}}} 3 = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} ... So the problem would be: read a number and output the definition. Details: Don't know whether we should include the commas. We'd also have to specify whether a final return is required, and also the input format (binary or ASCII, how many digits, is it EOF-terminated, and so on). One more thing: Since sets are indifferent as to order, perhaps we should at least allow the reverse order as well, so 3 could be {{}{{}}{{}{{}}}} or {{{{}}{}}{{}}{}}. (Allowing any equivalent ordering would complicate the judging, and I don't see offhand that it'd allow for a shorter program.) Maybe even use, as a second problem: read a definition and output the number? :) I have thought about this a little, but not yet developed a real algorithm. If we do this I will try to get my answer in long enough before deadline to counteract my head start. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 04:10:50 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dhFj-000IF5-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:10:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:10:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dhFA-000IEH-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:10:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:10:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from cepheus.azstarnet.com ([169.197.56.195]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dhF2-000IE8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:10:00 +0300 Received: from andromeda (andromeda.azstarnet.com [169.197.53.210]) by cepheus.azstarnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12459 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:09:55 -0700 (MST) X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:09:56 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] Re: Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Could you possibly explain this in a bit more detail? I'm having trouble seeing how 1 = {{}} .. unless there was some kind of substitution. Do the { and } have a certain value like .25? Thanks, Jeff On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Daniel wrote: > A possible problem for the next contest: > A common definition of natural numbers, due to John von Neumann, defines > each as the set of all the preceding ones. For instance: > 0 = {} > 1 = {{}} > 2 = {{},{{}}} > 3 = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} > ... > > So the problem would be: read a number and output the definition. > Details: Don't know whether we should include the commas. We'd also have to > specify whether a final return is required, and also the input format > (binary or ASCII, how many digits, is it EOF-terminated, and so on). One > more thing: Since sets are indifferent as to order, perhaps we should at > least allow the reverse order as well, so 3 could be {{}{{}}{{}{{}}}} or > {{{{}}{}}{{}}{}}. (Allowing any equivalent ordering would complicate the > judging, and I don't see offhand that it'd allow for a shorter program.) > Maybe even use, as a second problem: read a definition and output the > number? :) > > I have thought about this a little, but not yet developed a real algorithm. > If we do this I will try to get my answer in long enough before deadline to > counteract my head start. > > -Daniel. > -- > () ASCII ribbon campaign > /\ against HTML mail > > > > > From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 04:11:10 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dhFz-000IFJ-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:10:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:10:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dhFg-000IF0-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:10:40 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:10:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mrwaynxd-new.lnk.telstra.net ([139.130.76.194] helo=gateway.michel.com.au) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dhFW-000IEu-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:10:31 +0300 Received: from ork (ork.michel.com.au [203.18.139.105]) by gateway.michel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g7B1AO503137 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:10:24 +1000 From: "Ryan Michel" To: Subject: [lang] Re: Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:11:08 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk X-list: misc i was thinking possibly similar to the current problem but produce code that prints the input out in reverse order. Or is this to similar? ryan -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Daniel Sent: Sunday, 11 August 2002 10:31 AM To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. A possible problem for the next contest: A common definition of natural numbers, due to John von Neumann, defines each as the set of all the preceding ones. For instance: 0 = {} 1 = {{}} 2 = {{},{{}}} 3 = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} ... So the problem would be: read a number and output the definition. Details: Don't know whether we should include the commas. We'd also have to specify whether a final return is required, and also the input format (binary or ASCII, how many digits, is it EOF-terminated, and so on). One more thing: Since sets are indifferent as to order, perhaps we should at least allow the reverse order as well, so 3 could be {{}{{}}{{}{{}}}} or {{{{}}{}}{{}}{}}. (Allowing any equivalent ordering would complicate the judging, and I don't see offhand that it'd allow for a shorter program.) Maybe even use, as a second problem: read a definition and output the number? :) I have thought about this a little, but not yet developed a real algorithm. If we do this I will try to get my answer in long enough before deadline to counteract my head start. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 04:27:28 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dhVs-000IHq-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:27:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:27:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dhVe-000IHk-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:27:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:27:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from cepheus.azstarnet.com ([169.197.56.195]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dhVW-000IHe-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:27:02 +0300 Received: from andromeda (andromeda.azstarnet.com [169.197.53.210]) by cepheus.azstarnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13669 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:26:55 -0700 (MST) X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:26:55 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] Re: Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc How about a program that converts to or from the original compressed BF? Also, has a Befunge 93 interpreter been done in BF? Jeff On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Ryan Michel wrote: > i was thinking possibly similar to the current problem but produce code that > prints the input out in reverse order. Or is this to similar? > > ryan > > -----Original Message----- > From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi > [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Daniel > Sent: Sunday, 11 August 2002 10:31 AM > To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi > Subject: [lang] Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. > > > A possible problem for the next contest: > A common definition of natural numbers, due to John von Neumann, defines > each as the set of all the preceding ones. For instance: > 0 = {} > 1 = {{}} > 2 = {{},{{}}} > 3 = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} > ... > > So the problem would be: read a number and output the definition. > Details: Don't know whether we should include the commas. We'd also have to > specify whether a final return is required, and also the input format > (binary or ASCII, how many digits, is it EOF-terminated, and so on). One > more thing: Since sets are indifferent as to order, perhaps we should at > least allow the reverse order as well, so 3 could be {{}{{}}{{}{{}}}} or > {{{{}}{}}{{}}{}}. (Allowing any equivalent ordering would complicate the > judging, and I don't see offhand that it'd allow for a shorter program.) > Maybe even use, as a second problem: read a definition and output the > number? :) > > I have thought about this a little, but not yet developed a real algorithm. > If we do this I will try to get my answer in long enough before deadline to > counteract my head start. > > -Daniel. > -- > () ASCII ribbon campaign > /\ against HTML mail > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 > > > > > From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 04:33:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dhbV-000IIN-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:33:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:33:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dhbJ-000IIG-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:33:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:32:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from cepheus.azstarnet.com ([169.197.56.195]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dhbB-000II9-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 04:32:53 +0300 Received: from andromeda (andromeda.azstarnet.com [169.197.53.210]) by cepheus.azstarnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14110 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:32:49 -0700 (MST) X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:32:50 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] Re: Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Never mind I get it now... that's weird though :) Is this something taught at school, because I've never needed to use this before. Jeff On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Daniel wrote: > A possible problem for the next contest: > A common definition of natural numbers, due to John von Neumann, defines > each as the set of all the preceding ones. For instance: > 0 = {} > 1 = {{}} > 2 = {{},{{}}} > 3 = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} > ... > > So the problem would be: read a number and output the definition. > Details: Don't know whether we should include the commas. We'd also have to > specify whether a final return is required, and also the input format > (binary or ASCII, how many digits, is it EOF-terminated, and so on). One > more thing: Since sets are indifferent as to order, perhaps we should at > least allow the reverse order as well, so 3 could be {{}{{}}{{}{{}}}} or > {{{{}}{}}{{}}{}}. (Allowing any equivalent ordering would complicate the > judging, and I don't see offhand that it'd allow for a shorter program.) > Maybe even use, as a second problem: read a definition and output the > number? :) > > I have thought about this a little, but not yet developed a real algorithm. > If we do this I will try to get my answer in long enough before deadline to > counteract my head start. > > -Daniel. > -- > () ASCII ribbon campaign > /\ against HTML mail > > > > > From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 05:09:44 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17diAi-000ILr-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:09:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:09:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17diAS-000ILl-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:09:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:09:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17diAJ-000ILf-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:09:11 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7B298T01993 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:09:08 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:08:55 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Never mind I get it now... that's weird though :) Is this something > taught at school, because I've never needed to use this before. I learned it first in a CS theory class, but I don't know how widely it's taught; set theory is crucial in the foundations of mathematics, but the foundations of mathematics, while interesting, are not usually of practical relevance. (They're more relevant in brainfuck than other languages, of course. For instance, the add loop of brainfuck essentially implements the following recursive definition of addition in terms of predecessors and successors: add(x, y) = x (if y = 0) add(succ(x), pred(y)) (otherwise) ) (I may as well explain this anyway, in case someone else doesn't get it.) A set is a mathematical abstraction which contains things (including possibly other sets), but doesn't specify their order. {1, 2, 3, {4, 5}} is a set which contains four things: three numbers and one set (of two numbers). And that is the same set as {3, 1, {4, 5}, 2}. The following is a definition of numbers in terms of sets, or (if that's not clear) a pairing of numbers with sets... {} is the empty set; there are no natural numbers before 0. >> A possible problem for the next contest: >> A common definition of natural numbers, due to John von Neumann, defines >> each as the set of all the preceding ones. For instance: >> 0 = {} >> 1 = {{}} >> 2 = {{},{{}}} >> 3 = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} >> ... >> >> So the problem would be: read a number and output the definition. >> Details: Don't know whether we should include the commas. We'd also have to >> specify whether a final return is required, and also the input format >> (binary or ASCII, how many digits, is it EOF-terminated, and so on). One >> more thing: Since sets are indifferent as to order, perhaps we should at >> least allow the reverse order as well, so 3 could be {{}{{}}{{}{{}}}} or >> {{{{}}{}}{{}}{}}. (Allowing any equivalent ordering would complicate the >> judging, and I don't see offhand that it'd allow for a shorter program.) >> Maybe even use, as a second problem: read a definition and output the >> number? :) >> >> I have thought about this a little, but not yet developed a real algorithm. >> If we do this I will try to get my answer in long enough before deadline to >> counteract my head start. >> >> -Daniel. >> -- >> () ASCII ribbon campaign >> /\ against HTML mail -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 05:14:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17diFh-000INS-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:14:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:14:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17diFN-000INL-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:14:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:14:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17diFF-000INF-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:14:17 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7B2EET02101 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:14:14 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:14:01 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > i was thinking possibly similar to the current problem but produce code that > prints the input out in reverse order. Or is this to similar? You mean, shortest program A which produces a program B which outputs A's input in reverse order? That is too similar for my taste; we could try to work out the answer in the mailing list, but if we made it a contest we'd probably have a multi-way tie. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 05:16:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17diHe-000IPG-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:16:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:16:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17diHR-000IOz-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:16:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:16:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd5mo1so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17diHJ-000IOs-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:16:25 +0300 Received: from pd3mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.177]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0N004IIQBBSO@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:16:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml4so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml4so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.148]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0N00AA8KKZ25@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:12:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0N00CN5KKYNC@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:12:35 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:17:36 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Brainfuck Golf - the 0th contest (course?) is now over. To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020810171736.78c72ccb.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hi. I remember someone here mentioning the date Aug 11, 00:00:00 UTC, and since it is right now, I guess the contest is over. You can see the results on http://brainfuck.sf.net/results0.html Winners are daniel and bertram, with the same 49-byte program. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 05:37:47 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dibq-000IQo-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:37:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:37:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dibb-000IQi-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:37:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:37:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dibT-000IQc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:37:15 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7B2bCT02555 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:37:12 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:36:59 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Suggestion for Brainfuck Golf round 1. From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > How about a program that converts to or from the original compressed > BF? That'd work. > Also, has a Befunge 93 interpreter been done in BF? No. I've thought of it, but it seems like a pretty large task. Probably better for one person to write it and get undying fame for it than for everyone to do it in parallel. -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 11:54:27 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17doUK-000IiU-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:54:16 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:54:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17doTg-000IiO-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:53:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:53:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [212.16.6.108] (helo=frox25.i989.net) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17doTY-000IiI-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:53:28 +0300 Received: (qmail 45958 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2002 07:50:34 -0000 Received: from heartw.ih (10.0.17.4) by nova.ih with SMTP; 11 Aug 2002 07:50:34 -0000 Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:57:05 +0400 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <155317515763.20020811125705@frox25.i989.net> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Fwd: brainf*** golf In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.i989.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.i989.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello Babbo! Saturday, August 10, 2002, 11:02:59 PM, you wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Marcello Mamino > PS: A smaller version of the "Portable Brainf*** Interpreter", compliant > with the "old" 30K memory requirement. > char m[65000],*r=m,*n[99],**s=n,*p=m+32500,d,c;main(){for(read(0,r,32000); > c=*r;r++)c-'['||(*p?*s++=r,3:d++),c-']'||(!d?r=--*--s,7:d--),d||(p+=c=='>' > ,p-=c=='<',*p+=c=='+',*p-=c=='-',c-'.'||write(1,p,1),c-','||read(2,p,1));} is it possible to replace constants like 65000 to 65e3 and char values to its ascii codes like '>' to 62? and needless to say that perl version is shorter (129 bytes for now): http://www.perlmonks.com/index.pl?node_id=165365 ---- Mtv Europe From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 12:12:56 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17domD-000Ikq-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:12:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:12:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dolw-000Ikk-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:12:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:12:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd5mo1so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dolo-000Ike-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:12:20 +0300 Received: from pd6mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd6mr3so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.218]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0O00KK59KI57@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:12:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml10so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml10so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.80]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0O00A5G9KISJ@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:12:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0O00F469KHAB@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:12:18 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 02:17:20 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Brainfuck Golf - new stuff To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020811021720.483f63fc.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Ok, I implemented the leaderboard. It's still one entry per username, though. Are multiple entries such a necessity? After all, it's a contest for shortest code size, not for most programs submitted. And having one entry per user simplifies things greatly. Ignoring that issue, the next round can start at any time, provided we agree on the contest problem. I think the set theory one is neat. Here's another suggestion: an interpreter for a subset of Brainfuck that includes only the characters ", . < > + -". Or maybe even just ", . + -". __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 12:31:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dp4b-000ImV-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:31:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:31:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dp4H-000ImO-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:31:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:31:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dp48-000ImI-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:31:16 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7B9V9T10746 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 02:31:10 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 02:30:57 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck Golf - new stuff From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020811021720.483f63fc.ayzik@shaw.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Ok, I implemented the leaderboard. It's still one entry per username, > though. Are multiple entries such a necessity? After all, it's a > contest for shortest code size, not for most programs submitted. > And having one entry per user simplifies things greatly. It doesn't seem that important to me; if one entry per person simplifies things, that should be fine. > Ignoring that issue, the next round can start at any time, provided > we agree on the contest problem. I think the set theory one is neat. Thank you. > Here's another suggestion: an interpreter for a subset of Brainfuck > that includes only the characters ", . < > + -". Or maybe even just > ", . + -". That'd be interesting too. Of course we have mine as a baseline or starting point... -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 13:17:22 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dpmY-000IqO-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:17:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:17:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dplz-000IqI-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:16:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:16:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mrwaynxd-new.lnk.telstra.net ([139.130.76.194] helo=gateway.michel.com.au) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dplp-000IqC-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:16:26 +0300 Received: from ork (ork.michel.com.au [203.18.139.105]) by gateway.michel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id g7BAGH504297 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:16:17 +1000 From: "Ryan Michel" To: Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck Golf - new stuff Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:16:56 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ryan@michel.com.au Precedence: bulk X-list: misc if we go with a subset interpreter I vote for just + - . , A one cell memory space would be hard enough ryan -----Original Message----- From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Daniel Sent: Sunday, 11 August 2002 7:31 PM To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck Golf - new stuff > Ok, I implemented the leaderboard. It's still one entry per username, > though. Are multiple entries such a necessity? After all, it's a > contest for shortest code size, not for most programs submitted. > And having one entry per user simplifies things greatly. It doesn't seem that important to me; if one entry per person simplifies things, that should be fine. > Ignoring that issue, the next round can start at any time, provided > we agree on the contest problem. I think the set theory one is neat. Thank you. > Here's another suggestion: an interpreter for a subset of Brainfuck > that includes only the characters ", . < > + -". Or maybe even just > ", . + -". That'd be interesting too. Of course we have mine as a baseline or starting point... -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 7/05/2002 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 16:43:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dszf-000J59-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:42:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:42:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dsz1-000J4v-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:42:15 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:42:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.dm.unipi.it ([131.114.6.118]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dsys-000J4j-01 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:42:07 +0300 Received: from dida7.dm.unipi.it (IDENT:root@dida7.dm.unipi.it [131.114.6.116]) by mail.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7A0xun09568 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 02:59:56 +0200 Received: from localhost (mamino@localhost) by dida7.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g7A0xuj17702 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 02:59:56 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: dida7.dm.unipi.it: mamino owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 02:59:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Marcello Mamino X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] only a test Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk X-list: misc test... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 16:43:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dszf-000J5B-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:42:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:42:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dsz0-000J4p-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:42:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:42:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.dm.unipi.it ([131.114.6.118]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dsys-000J4j-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:42:06 +0300 Received: from dida7.dm.unipi.it (IDENT:root@dida7.dm.unipi.it [131.114.6.116]) by mail.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7AHaQn02457 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:36:26 +0200 Received: from localhost (mamino@localhost) by dida7.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g7AHaQP20753 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:36:26 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: dida7.dm.unipi.it: mamino owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 01:34:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Marcello Mamino X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] brainf*** golf Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ReSent-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:36:11 +0200 (CEST) ReSent-From: Marcello Mamino ReSent-To: ReSent-Subject: brainf*** golf ReSent-Message-ID: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Got 49, md5: 2600e509d1c4a54c87de3dbb97f3feef (To avoid md5 coincidences I have added a bit of text at the ed of the program...) Marcello. PS: A smaller version of the "Portable Brainf*** Interpreter", compliant with the "old" 30K memory requirement. char m[65000],*r=m,*n[99],**s=n,*p=m+32500,d,c;main(){for(read(0,r,32000); c=*r;r++)c-'['||(*p?*s++=r,3:d++),c-']'||(!d?r=--*--s,7:d--),d||(p+=c=='>' ,p-=c=='<',*p+=c=='+',*p-=c=='-',c-'.'||write(1,p,1),c-','||read(2,p,1));} From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 18:26:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17duc0-000JFb-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:26:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:26:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dubW-000JFM-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:26:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:25:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from cepheus.azstarnet.com ([169.197.56.195]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dubO-000JFG-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:25:58 +0300 Received: from andromeda (andromeda.azstarnet.com [169.197.53.210]) by cepheus.azstarnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03557 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 08:25:55 -0700 (MST) X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 08:25:55 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] Re: Brainfuck Golf - new stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Daniel wrote: > > Ignoring that issue, the next round can start at any time, provided > > we agree on the contest problem. I think the set theory one is neat. > > Thank you. At first I wasn't sure about this one.. but it seems useless and very weird, so in other words, it's perfect! :) I'd rather not have to deal with commas, though... calamari From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Aug 11 20:55:54 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dwwE-000JX0-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:55:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:55:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dwvQ-000JWo-00; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:54:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:54:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.dm.unipi.it ([131.114.6.118]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17dwvI-000JWi-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:54:40 +0300 Received: from dida7.dm.unipi.it (IDENT:root@dida7.dm.unipi.it [131.114.6.116]) by mail.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7BHsRn18618 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:54:27 +0200 Received: from localhost (mamino@localhost) by dida7.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g7BHsQv30995 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:54:26 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: dida7.dm.unipi.it: mamino owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:54:26 +0200 (CEST) From: Marcello Mamino X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] Re: Fwd: brainf*** golf In-Reply-To: <155317515763.20020811125705@frox25.i989.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Mtv Europe wrote: ... > > char m[65000],*r=m,*n[99],**s=n,*p=m+32500,d,c;main(){for(read(0,r,32000); > > c=*r;r++)c-'['||(*p?*s++=r,3:d++),c-']'||(!d?r=--*--s,7:d--),d||(p+=c=='>' > > ,p-=c=='<',*p+=c=='+',*p-=c=='-',c-'.'||write(1,p,1),c-','||read(2,p,1));} > > is it possible to replace constants like 65000 to 65e3 No, ccordingly to C99 standard this is only alowed for floating point types... > and char values to its ascii codes like '>' to 62? Yes, but less elegant and non char-set independent... > and needless to say that perl version is shorter (129 bytes for now): > http://www.perlmonks.com/index.pl?node_id=165365 eval docet. :) M2 sive borges sive Babbo. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 02:32:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e2Ba-000KAz-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:31:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:31:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e2Aq-000KAn-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:31:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:30:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from websnail.mit.edu ([18.7.21.99]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e2Ah-000KAh-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:30:55 +0300 Received: (from www@localhost) by websnail.mit.edu (8.9.3) id TAA24002; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:30:53 -0400 (EDT) From: dgreensp@mit.edu Received: from dsl1012.rba1.pppoe.execulink.com ( [dsl1012.rba1.pppoe.execulink.com]) as user dgreensp@MIT.EDU by webmail.mit.edu with HTTPS; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:30:53 -0400 Message-ID: <1029108653.3d56f3ad63b2a@webmail.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:30:53 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Golf round 1? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1-cvs X-Originating-IP: 66.203.174.5 X-Originating-Host: dsl1012.rba1.pppoe.execulink.com X-MIT-WebMail-Sender: X-MIT-WebMail-User-Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; Q312461; Hotbar 4.0) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@mit.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello all. I like the set theory problem proposed for golf round 1. I took a crack at it. My program takes a single-character input such as "3" (ASCII #51) and produces output such as "{{{{}}{}}{{}}{}}". Is this what the program is supposed to do? My current score is 179. -- David From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 03:05:33 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e2i7-000KJP-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:05:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:05:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e2hn-000KJG-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:05:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:04:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from cepheus.azstarnet.com ([169.197.56.195]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e2he-000KJA-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:04:58 +0300 Received: from andromeda (andromeda.azstarnet.com [169.197.53.210]) by cepheus.azstarnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23052 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 17:04:55 -0700 (MST) X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 17:04:55 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] Re: Golf round 1? In-Reply-To: <1029108653.3d56f3ad63b2a@webmail.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jeffryj@azstarnet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Wow that was fast! I started off with a HIGH level Basic version, and been breaking it down piece by piece so that it doesn't "cheat". Almost there, but 179 is gonna be hard to beat I can already tell :) Jeff On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 dgreensp@mit.edu wrote: > Hello all. > > I like the set theory problem proposed for golf round 1. I took a crack at it. > My program takes a single-character input such as "3" (ASCII #51) and produces > output such as "{{{{}}{}}{{}}{}}". Is this what the program is supposed to do? > > My current score is 179. > > -- David > > > > From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 03:18:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e2uQ-000KNh-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:18:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:18:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e2uB-000KNa-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:17:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:17:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from websnail.mit.edu ([18.7.21.99]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e2u2-000KNU-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:17:46 +0300 Received: (from www@localhost) by websnail.mit.edu (8.9.3) id UAA27517; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:17:44 -0400 (EDT) From: dgreensp@mit.edu Received: from dsl1012.rba1.pppoe.execulink.com ( [dsl1012.rba1.pppoe.execulink.com]) as user dgreensp@MIT.EDU by webmail.mit.edu with HTTPS; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:17:44 -0400 Message-ID: <1029111464.3d56fea89bca2@webmail.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:17:44 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Golf round 1? References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1-cvs X-Originating-IP: 66.203.174.5 X-Originating-Host: dsl1012.rba1.pppoe.execulink.com X-MIT-WebMail-Sender: X-MIT-WebMail-User-Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; Q312461; Hotbar 4.0) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@mit.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Slight problem with my program: under strict golf rules, with cells limited to a value of 255, it will only work for digits 0 to 7. Shucks. What was the reason for this limit again? I guess I'll have to find a different algorithm. -- David From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 03:39:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e3EY-000KRQ-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:38:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:38:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e3Dy-000KRH-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:38:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:38:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd2mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e3Dp-000KRB-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:38:13 +0300 Received: from pd3mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.177]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0P000GPGFEW8@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:38:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml6so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml6so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.150]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0P0061BGFEG4@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:38:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0P009A7GFD9M@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:38:02 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 17:43:13 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: Golf round 1? In-reply-to: <1029111464.3d56fea89bca2@webmail.mit.edu> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020811174313.391ab3cb.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1029111464.3d56fea89bca2@webmail.mit.edu> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:17:44 -0400 dgreensp@mit.edu wrote: > Slight problem with my program: under strict golf rules, with cells limited to > a value of 255, it will only work for digits 0 to 7. Shucks. What was the > reason for this limit again? To force people to use better algorithms :) Actually, the limit is there for historical reasons (bignums are evil when you want to write an interpreter in 3 lines of C code). Since my interpreter, which is used for judging, is written in Python, changing it to use arbitrarily big numbers would be trivial. However, it would mean that the programs won't run properly in (pretty much all) other Brainfuck implementations. Maybe the problem could be changed so that it's guaranteed that the number in the input is less than 256. But certainly not less than 8 :) __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 03:39:44 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e3FD-000KRw-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:39:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:39:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e3F1-000KRj-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:39:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:39:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mail.dm.unipi.it ([131.114.6.118]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e3Es-000KRc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:39:19 +0300 Received: from dida7.dm.unipi.it (IDENT:root@dida7.dm.unipi.it [131.114.6.116]) by mail.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7C0d5n29166 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:39:05 +0200 Received: from localhost (mamino@localhost) by dida7.dm.unipi.it (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id g7C0d5l32225 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:39:05 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: dida7.dm.unipi.it: mamino owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:39:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Marcello Mamino X-X-Sender: To: Subject: [lang] Re: Golf round 1? In-Reply-To: <1029108653.3d56f3ad63b2a@webmail.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mamino@mail.dm.unipi.it Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 dgreensp@mit.edu wrote: > Hello all. > > I like the set theory problem proposed for golf round 1. I took a crack at it. > My program takes a single-character input such as "3" (ASCII #51) and produces > output such as "{{{{}}{}}{{}}{}}". Is this what the program is supposed to do? > > My current score is 179. I am at 154 [one char from 0 to 9 input and output followed by a new-line (ascii 10)]... M2. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 04:46:36 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e4Hq-000KcP-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 04:46:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 04:46:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e4HF-000KcG-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 04:45:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 04:45:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd3mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e4H6-000KcA-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 04:45:40 +0300 Received: from pd4mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.213]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0P00DJSJG6W5@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:43:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml2so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml2so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.146]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0P00765JG6DA@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:43:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0P00FHVJG5VE@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:43:18 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:48:29 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] The Golf round 1 problem In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020811184829.608e71db.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1029108653.3d56f3ad63b2a@webmail.mit.edu> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc It seems like everyone agrees that the round 1 problem is the set theory one, and people are already writing programs; yet there're many issues that are not agreed upon. How should the input and output be done? I propose the following: the number is given in binary, as a single character (and therefore limited from 1 to 255), followed by EOF. The output should contain nothing but braces, and can be either in constantly decreasing or constantly increasing order. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 06:09:39 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e5aB-000Km5-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:09:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:09:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e5Zf-000Klw-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:08:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:08:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from websnail.mit.edu ([18.7.21.99]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e5ZW-000Klq-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:08:46 +0300 Received: (from www@localhost) by websnail.mit.edu (8.9.3) id XAA10925; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 23:08:44 -0400 (EDT) From: dgreensp@mit.edu Received: from dsl1012.rba1.pppoe.execulink.com ( [dsl1012.rba1.pppoe.execulink.com]) as user dgreensp@MIT.EDU by webmail.mit.edu with HTTPS; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 23:08:44 -0400 Message-ID: <1029121724.3d5726bccfddb@webmail.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 23:08:44 -0400 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: The Golf round 1 problem References: <1029108653.3d56f3ad63b2a@webmail.mit.edu> <20020811184829.608e71db.ayzik@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <20020811184829.608e71db.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1-cvs X-Originating-IP: 66.203.174.5 X-Originating-Host: dsl1012.rba1.pppoe.execulink.com X-MIT-WebMail-Sender: X-MIT-WebMail-User-Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; Q312461; Hotbar 4.0) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dgreensp@mit.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Quoting Nikita Ayzikovsky : > It seems like everyone agrees that the round 1 problem is the set > theory one, and people are already writing programs; yet there're > many issues that are not agreed upon. > > How should the input and output be done? I propose the following: > the number is given in binary, as a single character (and therefore > limited from 1 to 255), followed by EOF. The output should contain > nothing but braces, and can be either in constantly decreasing > or constantly increasing order. > > __ > <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ > /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ > > > Input of small numbers might be easier with an ASCII digit. Is a number greater than 9 really desirable? Keep in mind that the length of the output for the number n is 2^(n+1). And does the EOF serve a purpose? -- David From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 06:56:42 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e6Jl-000KsN-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:56:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:56:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e6JP-000KsE-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:56:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:56:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd6mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17e6JH-000Ks8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:56:03 +0300 Received: from pd2mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr3so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.108]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0P00EIHPGQOW@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:53:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml10so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml10so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.80]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0P001EFPHXA2@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:53:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0P0013IPHWWR@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:53:57 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:59:08 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: The Golf round 1 problem In-reply-to: <1029121724.3d5726bccfddb@webmail.mit.edu> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020811205908.34fe60f6.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <1029108653.3d56f3ad63b2a@webmail.mit.edu> <20020811184829.608e71db.ayzik@shaw.ca> <1029121724.3d5726bccfddb@webmail.mit.edu> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 23:08:44 -0400 dgreensp@mit.edu wrote: > Quoting Nikita Ayzikovsky : > > > How should the input and output be done? I propose the following: > > the number is given in binary, as a single character (and therefore > > limited from 1 to 255), followed by EOF. The output should contain > > nothing but braces, and can be either in constantly decreasing > > or constantly increasing order. > Input of small numbers might be easier with an ASCII digit. Is a number greater > than 9 really desirable? Keep in mind that the length of the output for the > number n is 2^(n+1). And does the EOF serve a purpose? Or maybe you're right. EOF doesn't serve a purpose, but the input's got to end, right? EOF is just a zero. __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 11:52:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eAvr-000LTq-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:52:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:52:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eAtq-000LSj-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:50:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:49:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eAth-000LSd-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:49:57 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7C8ntU24112 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:49:55 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7C8nsu17448 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:49:54 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:49:54 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [list-meta] Re: Nonsubscriber reply In-Reply-To: <15214430765.20020808152339@kuckuk.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Carsten Kuckuk wrote: > Could the list administrator please be so kind and turn this list into > one where only registered members can post?! I'd hate to see spam mail > on this mailing list. There hasn't been so much spam as to make this worthwhile. The problem is that no mailing list software I know of will handle hierarchical lists with closed posting properly. We are getting rid of the current mailing list software at some stage anyway, we'll renew the system by then. -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 11:55:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eAyc-000LVR-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:55:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:54:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eAyM-000LV9-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:54:46 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:54:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eAyD-000LV2-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:54:37 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7C8sSU25176 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:54:31 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7C8sOh17507 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:54:24 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:54:24 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Nonsubscriber reply In-Reply-To: <9318498078.20020808163126@kuckuk.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Carsten Kuckuk wrote: > Would it be possible to add a line with the unsubscribe description to > each e-mail? Sorry for being away for a while :) I'll look into this. -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 11:59:57 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eB38-000LYJ-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:59:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:59:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eB2k-000LY3-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:59:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:59:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eB2Y-000LXx-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:59:06 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7C8wxU26448 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:59:04 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7C8wsI17623 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:58:54 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:58:54 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf In-Reply-To: <20020808181136.A21461@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > > You may decrement 0 up to 127 times and assume that all intermediate > > > results are nonzero and that incrementing the number again as often > > > as one decremented it will again yield zero (with the same intermediate > > > results in reverse order). One can not use [-] to set a cell containing > > > a negative number to zero though; this loop is not guaranteed to terminate. > > > ([+] would work, but this does not work for positive numbers ... big > > > trouble there) > > Hm, I don't like it, because it would essentially mean that cell size is 383, > > Well, not really - nothing forbids mapping -1 to 255, -2 to 254, -3 to 252, > etc. -- 8 bits is still enough. Actually, as zero is the only "special" number in Brainfuck, you can get by 128 distinct values only (there's no way for a brainfuck program to know that, for instance, -64 == +64, without wrapping, which is forbidden anyway). By the way, I'm making a strict brainfuck implementation to enforce the golf rules. But if somebody can make it first, be my guest... :) Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 12:04:27 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eB7c-000LaU-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:04:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:04:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eB7I-000LaA-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:04:00 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:03:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eB7A-000La3-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:03:52 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7C93kU28265 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:03:48 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g7C93hd17658 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:03:43 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:03:43 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Shortest representation of a number in Brainfuck In-Reply-To: <20020808173647.E8397@mu.ee.teiath.gr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Al . Andreou wrote: > I made this nice observation while writing the "turn text to brainfuck > that prints the text" program. It describes the way to use the minimum > number of characters to produce Brainfuck code that itself represents > a number. This problem is discussed in length by Frank Faase at http://home.planet.nl/~faase009/Ha_bf_numb.html . The problem of producing the shortest code for outputting some text is somewhat more complicated, because numbers can be reused and loops can produce multiple values. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 12:25:55 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eBSL-000LiW-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:25:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:25:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eBS0-000LiK-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:25:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:25:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from h24-71-223-10.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd6mo3so.prod.shaw.ca) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eBRs-000LiE-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:25:16 +0300 Received: from pd2mr4so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr4so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.107]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0Q00H594SV6A@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:24:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml5so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml5so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.149]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0Q00EFJ4U2EE@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:25:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net [24.78.145.92]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0Q00E3O4U2I0@l-daemon> for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:25:14 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:30:26 -0700 From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf In-reply-to: To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Message-id: <20020812023026.01c27258.ayzik@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20020808181136.A21461@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ayzik@shaw.ca Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:58:54 +0300 (EEST) Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > By the way, I'm making a strict brainfuck implementation to enforce the > golf rules. But if somebody can make it first, be my guest... :) I wrote one in Python, http://brainfuck.sf.net/brain.py - it is used for judging... __ <(oO)> Cthulhu () ASCII ribbon campaign \ \/ \/\/\ \/ \/\/ /||\ Fhtagn! /\ against HTML mail /\/\./\/\/\/\./\/\ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 12:35:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eBb8-000LlY-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:34:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:34:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eBam-000LlK-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:34:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:34:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eBad-000LlE-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:34:20 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7C9YFT19506 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:34:16 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:34:02 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: The Golf round 1 problem From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1029121724.3d5726bccfddb@webmail.mit.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Quoting Nikita Ayzikovsky : > >> It seems like everyone agrees that the round 1 problem is the set >> theory one, and people are already writing programs; yet there're >> many issues that are not agreed upon. >> >> How should the input and output be done? I propose the following: >> the number is given in binary, as a single character (and therefore >> limited from 1 to 255), followed by EOF. The output should contain >> nothing but braces, and can be either in constantly decreasing >> or constantly increasing order. I think this is good, but I vote for two small changes. If the input is binary, and of known length (1 byte) then the range can, and probably should, be from 0 to 255, not 1 to 255; the programmer knows not to interpret an initial 0 as EOF, and the right output for a 0 would be {}. Secondly, given that the EOF is not needed, I think we should make no promise that it will follow immediately after the first byte. This is to rule out using it as a cheap way to zero some spot; clean solutions should use the comma operator only once, to get the one byte of input, and having the results of a second or third usage be unspecified encourages that. > Input of small numbers might be easier with an ASCII digit. Is a number > greater > than 9 really desirable? Keep in mind that the length of the output for the > number n is 2^(n+1). Right, meaning the output for a 10 would be 2048 characters, which is far from gigantic. I think numbers up to somewhere around 20, anyway, are reasonable to ask of a program and I don't know how much help a promise that they won't exceed 20 would be. -Daniel. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Aug 12 12:37:59 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eBe3-000Lmo-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:37:51 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:37:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eBdl-000Lmh-00; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:37:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:37:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from glisan.hevanet.com ([198.5.254.5]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17eBdZ-000Lmb-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:37:21 +0300 Received: from [130.94.161.238] (130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com [130.94.161.238]) by glisan.hevanet.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7C9bHT19538 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:37:18 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:37:04 -0700 Subject: [lang] Re: An idea: brainfuck golf From: Daniel To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cristofd@hevanet.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > By the way, I'm making a strict brainfuck implementation to enforce the > golf rules. But if somebody can make it first, be my guest... :) Nikita's already done so in Python, and put it on the website. But another wouldn't hurt :) -Daniel. -- () ASCII ribbon campaign /\ against HTML mail