From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Mar 20 00:24:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nS1Z-000HaV-00; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:24:09 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:24:03 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nS1H-000HaM-00; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:23:51 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:23:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nS19-000HaG-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:23:43 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-234-102.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.234.102]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D616E8A5386 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:51:24 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3C97B25C.B1F3D7BD@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:49:17 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Several programs (not very interesting though) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote: > > I have a suggestion for benrg too: it would be good if source codes > > could work backwards without having to invert the various types of > > bracket. The language could accept any direction of bracket at the > > top level, but when within brackets, the same type would be nesting > > and the opposite type would be closing. It probably makes parsing a > > bit harder though. > > Your proposal is good because it doesn't break any existing code or the > existing inversion algorithm. I also don't think it would make parsing > much harder (at least not with my ad-hoc parser). However, from an > esthetic perspective I rather like the bracket-mirroring and I don't see a > pressing need to support non-mirroring inversion. Anyone else have an > opinion on this? I vote against non-mirroring inversion, for the same esthetic reasons. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Mar 20 00:34:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nSBv-000HcF-00; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:34:51 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:34:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nSBM-000Hc8-00; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:34:16 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:34:09 +0200 (EET) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nSB9-000Hc2-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:34:03 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-234-102.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.234.102]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FA548A3678 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:33:57 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3C97BC55.DB93915B@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:31:49 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Several programs (not very interesting though) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > > > construct a language with even stricter bidirectionality? Currently there > > > seem to be two ways to produce redundancy - taking the "paper to make > > > copies on" from the input, as apparently does Milo's Hello World! program, > > From the input? I don't use the input. And what do you mean with "paper"? > > Oh, seems I misread the program. By "paper" I meant the zero bits that > have to be extracted from somewhere to write something on (to invert or > let be). Try this program... (in) { in out in out in out in out in|out in out in|out in out in|out in out in out in|out in out in out in out in out in|out in|out in out in|out in|out in out in out in|out in out in out in|out in out in|out in|out in out in|out in|out in out in out in|out in out in|out in|out in|out in out in out in|out in out in|out in out in|out in|out in out in|out in|out in|out in|out in|out in out in|out in|out in|out in out in|out in|out in|out in|out in out in out in|out in out in out in out in out in out in|out in out in|out in|out in out in|out in|out in|out in|out in|out in out in|out in|out in out in|out in|out in out in out in|out in out in|out in|out in out in|out in|out in out in out in|out in out in|out in|out in out in out in|out in out in|out in|out in out in|out in out in out in|out in out in out in out in|out } (out) It is not quite a bijection from input to output since a bit in the in/out stack can say something about other bits (specifically, if the first bit of nine is zero, then the rest must also be zero), but it prints "Hello world!" when given empty input, and uses no zero stack. > > Enforce using the bit bucket? And have my computer melt down? The > > whole point of the language is to minimize the usage of the bit bucket. > > No, the bit bucket can be redirected (like unix pipes) into some other > program, like it is redirected within a Kayak program from function to > function. Another problem: how are you going to figure out exactly how well the pogram uses the bit bucket? If you underuse it, the program will be sensitive to input, meaning that certain inputs will generate errors. If you overuse it, your program will work all right, until you run it in reverse, and pick a random bit off the entropy stack when actually you know what you want. Allthough there is probably a perfect way to do it for any task, it's hard to figure out exactly how, and harder still to have the compiler check this, since that would require the compiler to be able to check, in finite time, what the program will do in an infinity of possible situations... Howver, for programs that don't use input but want to accept (and discard) what they're given (basicly, these are "Hello world!" programs and quines), it's easy to figure out how to usethe bit bucket exactly right, namely by using the following function: discard(in|bb) { in[ in bb in bb in bb in bb in bb in bb in bb in bb discard(in|bb)discard ]bb } (in|bb)discard It should be straightforward to check that when run in reverse, this generates a valid output stack (with correct EOF conditions) randomly from the bit bucket. However, I haven't tested it yet. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Mar 20 01:50:21 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nTMj-000HkF-00; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 01:50:05 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 20 Mar 2002 01:49:59 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nTLq-000Hk6-00; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 01:49:10 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 20 Mar 2002 01:49:03 +0200 (EET) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nTLj-000Hk0-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 01:49:03 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-234-102.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.234.102]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74521C52DC for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:10:45 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3C97B6E6.BB7CA6EC@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:08:38 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: taking the address of a temporary References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote: > > f(&MyClass(args)); > [...] > > It's inconsistent to warn about the first of these and not the other two. > > I can't say I agree. Most C++ warnings are not warnings of bad programming > techniques but exactly syntaxes that might give unexpected results if the > programmer doesn't know her C++. For example, > > while (blahblah); gives a warning in gcc while exactly equivalent > while (blahblah) {}; does not. > > > > Also, there has to be something bad about it, or it my compiler > > > wouldn't give a warning about it. > > Maybe, but I can't figure out what. I feel the same way about the > > "function argument isn't used" warning which almost all C++ compilers > > produce. At least in that case the warning suggests a potential > > optimization. > > Nah, the warnings are just a way to spot mistakes. If they weren't > sometimes sensible code, they'd be made errors instead of warnings. (*(int*)0)=0; doesn't give me an error message (or even a warning, in this case), but nobody would claim it's sensible code :) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Mar 20 03:21:49 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nUnB-000I1t-00; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:21:29 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:21:22 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nUl6-000HxN-00; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:19:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:19:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nUky-000HxH-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:19:12 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-234-102.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.234.102]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D684F0AF for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:07:27 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3C97B61F.42A2E3C3@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:05:19 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Several programs (not very interesting though) References: <20020318233138.A26713@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> <20020319042257.C26713@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > Btw, I'd rather see the bit bucket behave as a real stack, i.e. > values pushed on the bit bucket would be retrievable later ... not > that it makes much difference, it just seems cleaner. It already is. Actually, I want exactly the opposite. Seeing the bit bucket as something which takes data and discards it as heat (which is the explanation in the language specifications for why such a thing might be useful), then it would be reasonable to assume that any bits are immediately turned into heat, making them unretrievable > > The reversibility problem occurs as long as there is any possible output > > which cannot in principle occur as input. Thus to guarantee error-free > > reversibility the trailing data on the input stack would have to be > > specified as unpredictable. > > That would be possible, yes, and by virtue of reversibility, everyithing > following the EOF marker on the output should be ignored; But then, you would have a sort of implied it bucket stored under the in/out stacks (input is a random bit source, while output is a random bit sink, both of which are currently done by the bit bucket). > Btw, there's another problem with reversibility with Kayak right now, > namely that > > (b,io) {z b} (io,b) > > is only reversible 50% of the time. This is because you push something on the bit bucket that you actually already know. As noted in my email announcing my sort program (and some others), bit bucket using programs are reversible (with some randomness in the output, but still reversible) if they are careful only to use the bit bucket for actual entropy. Since you are dumping something which you already know it must be a zero (or, in more complex situations, that you can derive its value from other varibles), you can get rid of it by pushing it onto the all-zero stack, so if you put it in the bit bucket anyway then you are overusing the bit bucket, thereby breaking reversibility. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Mar 20 11:38:48 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ncY9-000Iz2-00; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:38:29 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:38:23 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ncWH-000IyW-00; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:36:33 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:36:26 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ncW9-000IyQ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:36:25 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2K9Xfp25787 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:36:24 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2K9Xbv25890 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:33:37 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:33:37 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: taking the address of a temporary In-Reply-To: <3C97B6E6.BB7CA6EC@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > (*(int*)0)=0; doesn't give me an error message (or even a warning, in this > case), but nobody would claim it's sensible code :) The compiler is not perfect. Note that my claim was that error-like weird practices are made warnings if they might be useful, not that practices that may not be useful are always made errors. It's quite hard to prove (*(int*)0)=0; is nonsensical, because sometimes you really have to deal with explicit hardware addresses and guessing just which of them are "bad" is outside the scope of the compiler. But the more important point is that, it's hard to write something like the above by mistake, so detecting it has little added value. -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Mar 20 23:40:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nno9-000Koz-00; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:39:45 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:39:38 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nnnm-000Kos-00; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:39:23 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:39:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nnna-000Kol-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:39:10 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-239-233.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.239.233]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D63748A492C for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 22:20:19 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3C98FC93.327C8420@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 22:18:11 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Esoteric languages Subject: [lang] [Kayak] Sorting! Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B3C3F988CAB4301111CD51ED" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B3C3F988CAB4301111CD51ED Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a working character sort utility for arbitrary length strings! It is careful in the use of the bit bucket (or so I think, I haven't tried to prove it, but it should be possible, probably with induction to the string size), so you can run it in reverse on an already sorted string to generate a random order. The distribution, however, is not even - if the bit bucket has an even distribution (which it does in this implementation), then the program prefers to shuffle less over more, as is both evident from the algorithm (which requires more bits to be exactly right for reversal than for changing nothing) and determined by experiment. However, all permutations should eventually show up. Of course, there are very many permutations, so you will probably need to be immortal at the very least. As an example, when sorting 26 characters (the letters of the alphabet, in case you were wondering where that number came from), is has a chance of 1/2^325 to do a complete reversal, but a chance of 1/2^25 of not changing anything. Both are small, but the latter is 2^300 (over 2*10^90) times more likely, having a chance of 33554432 which, in order to achieve as actual random number, would merely require a lot of patience rather than immortality. If you try once a second, it will take on average a bit over a year (where a bit is a bit over three quarters of a month, where a bit is...) to receive a run which is. The reversal, on the other hand, will take way longer than the universe exists even if you try once a nanosecond (of course, the random number generator in the current implementation is seeded by time(), which is only accurate to the second, so you'll have to change this if you want to actually perform this experiment, which you don't). So, what is the actual algorithm? It may look like bubble sort from a distance, and indeed does look as if the characters bubble up, but is in fact a different algorithm which was designed with bit bucket usage in mind (meaning, basically, that if it knows that a> sort(io|bb)sort << recusively sort what's left >> t io t io t io t io t io t io t io t io << put back first character >> push-first(io|bb)push-first << advance it to the correct place >> ]io } (io|bb)sort (bb|io) { sort(io|bb)sort } (io|bb) --------------B3C3F988CAB4301111CD51ED-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 21 02:48:59 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nqlA-000LTF-00; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:52 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nqkb-000LSx-00; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:17 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nqkT-000LSf-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:10 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p13.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.13]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2L0m6T00345 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:06 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <008b01c1d071$5318ca60$0d81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: "EsoLang Lang" Subject: [lang] Prnfoff, BAK, Wassisname, Fromage, Tabarnac, Brainffft, Best ? Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:44:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello Everybody, Where can I get these esoteric languages ? Don't know them ! -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 21 02:48:59 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nql9-000LTD-00; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:52 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nqkb-000LSu-00; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:17 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:09 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nqkS-000LSd-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:08 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p13.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.13]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2L0m2T00339 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:03 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <008901c1d071$517e5440$0d81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: Subject: [lang] Re: [list-meta] some stats Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:32:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello! > Please note that by subscribing both misc and lang you will receive > duplicates for all messages posted to lang, because they are > automathically echoed to misc. Misc is only meant as an easy means to > receive all messages, and if you subscribe misc, you should not subscribe > any other list. I'm a little bit surprised that 16 people are in this > condition and only one of them is complaining. Well, I'm one of the 16 people and just don't complain (already know this) ! :) -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 21 02:49:00 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nql9-000LTE-00; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:52 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nqkb-000LSv-00; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:17 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nqkS-000LSe-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:08 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p13.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.13]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2L0m4T00342 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 02:48:04 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <008a01c1d071$5247bec0$0d81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: Subject: [lang] Re: [several languages] updates, queries Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:39:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski, > 1) I (finally) added the brainfuck interpreters in SIMPLE and Thue into > http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/impl/interp/ . Nice Archive ! :) Now downloading some stuff to checkout. > 2) Prnfoff's page seems to be gone. Does anybody have any copies of his > esoteric languages, BAK and wassisname, Fromage? (Prnfoff's style was > always heavy obfuscation in addition to esotericism, but the languages are > still very interesting.) Prnfoff ? BAK ? Wassisname, Fromage ? Don't know them ! > 3) Can I put up small web pages for Tabarnac, Brainffft and BEST? These > languages seem not to have their own web pages, while they all have nice > ideas IMO. (It might be a good idea to gather all brainfuck-offspring in > one place, but it's too much trouble finding them all.) Tabarnac ? Brainffft ? Best ? Know know them too ! Can my e (Exclamation) language be seen as a brainfuck-offspring ? > 4) It occurred to me that arranging an esoteric documentation contest > (sample programs / tutorials / tips=progr. techniques) could be a good > idea. Actually, I'd like it more to be an esoteric documentation project, > but that sounds a little bit too passive and stable. Yes, Agree ! I use to like the Esoteric Language Database (http://www.purists.org/esoteric/) but its outdated, some links doesn't work etc. -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 21 10:26:14 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nxtd-000MZk-00; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:26:06 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:25:59 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nxsh-000MZO-00; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:25:07 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:25:00 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16nxsZ-000MZF-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:24:59 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2L8Owr12626 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:24:58 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2L8OuN15374 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:24:56 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:24:56 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: Esoteric languages Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Sorting! In-Reply-To: <3C98FC93.327C8420@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > calculated its speed (except that I know it's faster then bubblesort, but just > about anything is) so I don't know if this would be worth it. It works like > this: Reading the description, I got the impression that it's equal to the so-called insertion sort. (I first had difficulties remembering just how exactly bubble sort works, because it's been ages since I needed destructive-update arrays for anything.) Insertion sort's execution time is the same with bubble sort, O(n*n), but it uses half the comparisons (on average) of bubble sort, so it's expected to be faster. On reversed input, it is just as bad as bubble sort, but on almost-sorted input, it might have better performance than quicksort. Cool to see stuff like this, by the way. (Though I still think the bit bucket should not be seen as immediately emitting bits as heat, but rather as redirected to the upper levels just in case some program would make use of the discarded bits, so as to reduce heating.) Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 21 10:33:20 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ny0c-000MbM-00; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:33:18 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:33:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ny0S-000MbG-00; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:33:09 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:33:02 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ny0L-000MbA-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:33:01 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2L8X0r14906 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:33:00 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2L8Wve15437 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:32:57 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:32:57 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: EsoLang Lang Subject: [lang] Re: Prnfoff, BAK, Wassisname, Fromage, Tabarnac, Brainffft, Best ? In-Reply-To: <008b01c1d071$5318ca60$0d81ef9b@lennie> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Where can I get these esoteric languages ? Don't know them ! :) Prnfoff is the name of a person. BAK and Fromage are his languages, and I was asking for them on this list exactly because they've vanished. Wassisname is a word implying that I have difficulties remembering some other word: it is a contraction of the clause "What was its name?". Tabarnac, Brainffft and BEST can be found at this list's archive, http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/ Your e (exclamation) language can be seen as brainfuck's offspring, and you might want to add it to the language database once it becomes functional - that's a paradigm shift for you. (Just in case, the last remark was a joke. No, don't ask what it meant.) Panu From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 21 23:28:36 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oA5t-000OLa-00; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:27:34 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:27:27 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oA3h-000OLP-00; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:25:17 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:25:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oA3T-000OLG-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:25:03 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-234-222.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.234.222]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FE8C8A3895 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:24:44 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3C9A4F19.A30D6FD1@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:22:34 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Sorting! (note: bugfix attached) References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2F615C0D78B4524DBC08C234" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2F615C0D78B4524DBC08C234 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > > calculated its speed (except that I know it's faster then bubblesort, but just > > about anything is) so I don't know if this would be worth it. It works like > > this: > > Reading the description, I got the impression that it's equal to the > so-called insertion sort. (I first had difficulties remembering just how > exactly bubble sort works, because it's been ages since I needed > destructive-update arrays for anything.) Insertion sort's execution time > is the same with bubble sort, O(n*n), but it uses half the comparisons (on > average) of bubble sort, so it's expected to be faster. On reversed input, > it is just as bad as bubble sort, but on almost-sorted input, it might > have better performance than quicksort. On reversed input, no sorting algorithm can go faster than O(n^2), since there are O(n^2) operations necessary for the swappings even if you know in advance that the input is reversed. As for already sorted input, my algorithm takes exactly n-1 comparisons, since that's what's necessary to recognize an already sorted string. I don't know insertion sort, but I might have reinvented the wheel. And bubble sort goes like this: 1. Perform step 2 for i=n...2 (counting backwards). 2. Perform step 3 for j=1...i-1. 3. Compare character j with character j+1 and swap if necessary. As for the bug fix, my program wasn't fully reversible after all. It would fail when reversing input with equal characters. The reason for this is that, if a=b, then it was defined to never claim a=b. Since this came from the bit bucket in the first place, it can (and has to) go back without breaking reversibility. --------------2F615C0D78B4524DBC08C234 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="sort.kayak" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="sort.kayak" compare(a|b|alb) { a[b[compare(a|b|alb)big-endian]b]|[b[alb|alb]|[compare(a|b|alb)big-endian]|b]|a } (a|b|alb)big-endian compare(io|top-is-less|bb) { z|a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a z b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b compare(a|b|t)big-endian a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a|a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b|b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b compare(a|b|t)big-endian t|[compare(a|b|top-is-less)big-endian]|[bb top-is-less]t compare(a|b|t)big-endian a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a|a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b|b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b compare(a|b|t)big-endian b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b z a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a|z } (io|top-is-less|bb)top2 swap-top2(io) { io a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a io b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b a io a io a io a io a io a io a io a io b io b io b io b io b io b io b io b io } (io)2pot-paws push-first(io|bb) { io t io t io t io t io t io t io t io t io[ t io t io t io t io t io t io t io t io compare(io|top-is-less|bb)top2 top-is-less|[ swap-top2(io)2pot-paws io t io t io t io t io t io t io t io t push-first(io|bb)push-first t io t io t io t io t io t io t io t io ]bb io t io t io t io t io t io t io t io t ]io t io t io t io t io t io t io t io t io } (io|bb)push-first sort(io|bb) { io[ io t io t io t io t io t io t io t io t sort(io|bb)sort t io t io t io t io t io t io t io t io push-first(io|bb)push-first ]io } (io|bb)sort (bb|io) { sort(io|bb)sort } (io|bb) --------------2F615C0D78B4524DBC08C234-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 22 06:42:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oGs6-000P7P-00; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 06:41:46 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 22 Mar 2002 06:41:39 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oGq1-000P7B-00; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 06:39:37 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 22 Mar 2002 06:39:31 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oGpp-000P75-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 06:39:25 +0200 Received: from irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.66]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2M4dJm01757 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 05:39:19 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2M4dJt11021 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 05:39:19 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 05:39:19 +0100 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Sorting! (reversible merge sort) Message-ID: <20020322053919.A10628@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <3C9A4F19.A30D6FD1@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <3C9A4F19.A30D6FD1@dds.nl>; from Milo van Handel on Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 10:22:34PM +0100 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hi, Milo van Handel wrote: > Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > On reversed input, no sorting algorithm can go faster than O(n^2), [...] Wrong. It's possible to implement merge sort in Kayak (see below), and this takes O(n log(n)) operations to accomplish that task. > As for the bug fix, my program wasn't fully reversible after all. Hmm, the same happened to me with the merge sort program ... regards, Bertram <[mergesort.kayak]> << compare two stacks, top==msb, limited to c (given in unary) bits, return a random bit if the stacks compare equal >> compare (a|b|c|bb|alb) { c [ a [ b [ compare (a|b|c|bb|alb). ] b ] | [ b [ z | alb ] | [ compare (a|b|c|bb|alb). ] | b ] | a ] | [ bb alb ] | c } (a|b|c|bb|alb). << split an io-format stack into two of about equal size >> split (l|a|b) { l [ l t l t l t l t l t l t l t l t split (l|b|a). t a t a t a t a t a t a t a t a ] a } (l|a|b). << convert io format stack to data/count format >> count (a|ac) { a [ a t a t a t a t a t a t a t a t count (a|ac). t a t a t a t a t a t a t a t a ] ac } (a|ac). << divide an unary number by two, giving two halves >> div2 (a|b|c) { a [ div2(a|c|b). ] b } (a|b|c). << reversible merge, takes two data/count format lists and merges them. It returns the merged list but without the associated count (which would be redundant as it can be calculated from the ac and bc unary numbers which are preserved by this function) >> merge (a|ac|b|bc|8|bb|l) { ac [ bc [ a u a u a u a u a u a u a u a u b v b v b v b v b v b v b v b v compare (v|u|8|bb|ulv). ulv [ u a u a u a u a u a u a u a u a z | ac merge (a|ac|b|bc|8|bb|l). ac | z v l v l v l v l v l v l v l v l ] | [ v b v b v b v b v b v b v b v b z | bc merge (a|ac|b|bc|8|bb|l). bc | z u l u l u l u l u l u l u l u l ] bb ] | [ a u a u a u a u a u a u a u a u merge (a|ac|b|bc|8|bb|l). u l u l u l u l u l u l u l u l ] | bc ] | [ bc [ b v b v b v b v b v b v b v b v merge (a|ac|b|bc|8|bb|l). v l v l v l v l v l v l v l v l ] bc ] | ac } (a|ac|b|bc|8|bb|l). << merge sort: start by splitting the given list into two; if both are non- empty, recurse; proceed by counting the elements in the two resulting lists and merging them. To make the function reversible, the relation between ac and bc (ac=bc or ac=bc+1) has to be taken into account when calculating the lc (length of the resulting list); running div2 in reverse accomplishes that. Finally, convert l/lc back to io format >> sort (l|8|bb) { split (l|a|b). a [ b [ z | a sort (a|8|bb). a b sort (b|8|bb). b | z ] b ] a count (a|ac). count (b|bc). merge (a|ac|b|bc|8|bb|l). .(bc|ac|lc) 2vid .(lc|l) tnuoc } (l|8|bb). << main function. trivial >> (bb|io) { z | 8 z | 8 z | 8 z | 8 z | 8 z | 8 z | 8 z | 8 sort (io|8|bb). 8 | z 8 | z 8 | z 8 | z 8 | z 8 | z 8 | z 8 | z } (io|bb) <[EOF]> -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 22 08:19:21 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oION-000PHe-00; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:19:11 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:19:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oINW-000PHU-00; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:18:18 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:18:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oINO-000PHO-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:18:10 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2M6I9r15891 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:18:09 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2M6I4M24571 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:18:07 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:18:04 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Sorting! (note: bugfix attached) In-Reply-To: <3C9A4F19.A30D6FD1@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > > average) of bubble sort, so it's expected to be faster. On reversed input, > > it is just as bad as bubble sort, but on almost-sorted input, it might > > have better performance than quicksort. > On reversed input, no sorting algorithm can go faster than O(n^2), since there are > O(n^2) operations necessary for the swappings even if you know in advance that the This only holds for sorting algorithms that never swap non-adjacent cells. Algorithms that may swap non-adjacent cells, like quicksort, heapsort, mergesort, shellsort, radix-sort and so on, have usually a worst-case performance (not average) of O(n*log n). Interestingly, shellsort actually is just a non-locally swapping version of bubblesort. > input is reversed. As for already sorted input, my algorithm takes exactly n-1 > comparisons, since that's what's necessary to recognize an already sorted string. As for trivial algorithms to sort input of which you know it is reversed, consider a routine that pops the data characterwise from one stack and puts it characterwise on another. This reverses the input in O(n). The number of comparisons needed to recognise an already sorted string is the same as the number of swaps needed to sort the string. > I don't know insertion sort, but I might have reinvented the wheel. And bubble > sort goes like this: > 1. Perform step 2 for i=n...2 (counting backwards). > 2. Perform step 3 for j=1...i-1. > 3. Compare character j with character j+1 and swap if necessary. Well, it's very hard to come up with new sorting algorithms any more. (Many non-obvious ones, like random-sort and genetic-sort, have also been invented already.) As for bubble sort, I did remember eventually how it works, but as you can see, it's quite depndent on arrays with destructive update, so I wonder if the algorithm makes any ssense in a setup where you do not have those... > the "z bb" problem. The new version recognizes when a=b and then > randomly (from the bit bucket) claims either a=b. Since this > came from the bit bucket in the first place, it can (and has to) go back > without breaking reversibility. Programming in Kayak certainly seems to bring up interesting issues with reversible algorithms :) Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 22 22:21:57 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oVXC-0001Fr-00; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:21:10 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:21:00 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oVUW-0001Fi-00; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:18:24 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:18:17 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oVUO-0001Fc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:18:16 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2MKIEr27772 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:18:15 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2MKI8D14942 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:18:08 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:18:07 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [functional] Erlang - miscellaneous remarks Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc I checked the Erlang pages (faq, tutorials, stuff like that) for some information about the language. I see Erlang comes with a strong philosophy of how things should be done, which I find nice. Of course, you could form different programmer traditions to keep up different programming styles, but the programming practices get bound to languages anyway, so it's better to endorse them officially. There are a lot of languages with the "anything goes" attitude - Ocaml, PHP, C++ and so on. They all require the programmer to have separately clear knowledge of how she wants to do things. Now, there are actually not so many abstraction frameworks out there - much less than there seem to be languages, at least. One of them is the flow model, which can be seen in Unix pipes (very restricted form), most non-structured network protocols, lazy functional programming (a very general form), dataflow languages and systems like that. This approach tends to break up the operational semantics into as small parts as possible, making the intermediate representations the actual interface between the parts of the program. As the parts are usually very simple, it is easy to reason about the working of the program. Another big abstraction framework is the OO model. In its weakest form, it's basically record-like data structures with specialised handling routines. On a higher abstraction level, module systems come to mind. Some additional flexibility and bottom-up designing possibilities are added by runtime binding, for which languages like C++ use nice techniques (vtable) to make it very efficient. Now, Erlang's explicit concurrency lies somewhere between these two. It is certainly closer to the OO model than the flow one, but the concurrency semantics demand higher level of independence and consistency from individual components, which I think is good. On the other hand, explicit concurrency is even more heavy-weight than the usual OO frameworks (from the design point of view), so it might be best suited, after all, for applications that are really meant to be distributed. Another interesting approach to concurrency is Join-calculus, which is arguably one of the cleanest concurrency models out there. It also adds to the implicitness of concurrency and distribution, which is sometimes a good thing and sometimes bad. Most notably it removes the distinction between messages and handler routines, which is IMO a good thing. Still another method for abstraction is aspect-oriented programming, which is even more hype-oriented than OO is. The basic idea is being able to tweak anything (add code to be executed under different conditions), so that different additional functionality can be easily added. I don't know whether this is such a good idea, because with the current AOP tools any project still requires significant amount of design. Maybe AOP is more like a solution to OO's narrow-minded problem modeling. Usually abstraction gives birth to modularity - the less assumptions your code makes, the more there are situations it can be used at. Erlang seems to aim towards robustness by simplicity, because an important modularisation technique that is synergetic with non-abstract data types, namely higher order functions, seems to be missing. Erlang does have higher-order processes (process id's can be passed around), but it seems weird to me to force working on that level of abstraction. OO modularity is often based on dynamic binding. This is quite equivalent to first-class functions, except that methods of objects of different classes are not interchangeable - just the objects itself are, given they implement the same interface. Storing functions (perhaps with some values in the closure) into data structures is a technique less endorsed by functional programming languages than it would deserve. Erlang does not even have the facilities to do this. Instead, Erlang has strong support for using runtime-checked tags in data structures. This certainly brings flexibility, but still feels very error-prone to me - protocol extensions are probably not gracefully handled with, but end up generating match errors. However, tags are a natural solution when totally free-form messages are wanted. Dataflow modularisation is usually based on polymorphic / dynamic typing and separating different aspects of algorithms into independent routines that can then be mixed-and-matched to build pipelines. This can also be done in non-lazy environments but really gets off in lazy environments, because in non-lazy ones the technique tends to have the program doing much work that is never necessary to be done. Moreover, in non-lazy environments one cannot separate end-conditions from processing logic. Overall, Erlang seems to use quite different abstraction / modularisation techniques from most functional setups. The Erlang environment is well designed for its problem domain (fault tolerance), but it does lose a lot from stronger functional environments. The abstraction / modularisation techniques cannot be put in any single order of preference, because they require different models of thought and are aimed on extension on different dimensions. But it is good to study all these languages for their "spirit", because that brings valuable tools into the programmer's toolkit. -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 22 23:38:56 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oWk7-0001N9-00; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:38:35 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:38:29 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oWjG-0001Mx-00; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:37:42 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:37:35 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oWj8-0001Mr-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:37:34 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2MLbXr07079 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:37:33 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2MLbQ518638 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:37:26 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:37:26 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: referential transparency In-Reply-To: <20020315165412.5c6676fe.cpressey@catseye.mb.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Chris Pressey wrote: > inheritance, while ignoring interface. Similarly with functional, lazy > evaluation and referential transparency make people go 'wow' while they > quite possibly ignore the more basic benefits of functional programming, > like single-assignment (I'll address that in particular later on) Hmm, I see single-assignment as a direct result of referential transparency. But the difference is, of course, caused by our terminologies. Without referential transparency, however, single-assignment is more like a gesture than an actual property of language, because you can then write programs that basically use recursion only to loop and perform calculation by (for example, in the case of Erlang) sending and receiving messages. > any problem as entirely referentially transparent, but is it worth the > extra work? My guess is, not always. It makes sense for things that > really are functions. It makes a lot less sense for things that really do > change state. Well, the amount of extra work it takes depends a lot on what you're used to. The Haskell solution is, retain ref.trans., cast away lazy evaluation when it comes to I/O. Lazy K's solution does not even cast away lazy evaluation. The reason lazy evaluation is sometimes hard to fit with current systems is that current systems are not designed for use with lazy evaluation. Erlang also casts away ref.trans. with I/O. Give and take... By the way, we really seem to have deep terminological differences. You talk about functional programs not having "state". But of course they do - that's what data structures contain! You talk about functional programs not changing state. But they do - by mapping old states to new ones. There's nothing in the essence of functional programming that somehow disagrees with state. > What abstraction does is put a black box around something. What's inside > that box can't see out, and what's outside can't see in. Whenever > something inside this box affects something outside that box, without > going through its "surface" (interface), that is (as near as I can tell) a > side effect, and in that case the box is not perfectly black. Actually, I think the more the box has "interface" the less it is black. Tho only way for a box to be totally black is not to provide any interface at all. But let's go on. > So by this definition, I/O is a side effect unless the entire > communication is retained so that we can regard it as internal and > unchanging wrt our black box. The more complex the I/O (networks, > databases etc), the more difficult this is to do. What we end up doing is > to pass the entire world, more or less, as the argument and return the new > entire world as the result to each box. Looks to me like that defeats the > purpose of the box being black, since now the stuff inside the box can see > (and alter) arbitrary parts of the outside world in question. Now, now. Of course the functional _program_ has to get the whole world as parameter (yes, with retaining semantics), because it might need any service. The program then may pass only parts of the world to its parts. Apparently you haven't really looked into Haskell's I/O model, because you think it's that hard to accommodate I/O in a functional, referentially transparent framework. Besides, lazy evaluation really does take away the distinction between client / server code - neither is the program a service to the world or vice versa, they are interdependent entities. Features lost by Haskell's framework: - lazy evaluation (in the full monad, for example dealing with multiple filehandles) - guarantees of what will happen if you both read and write some file (as if there ever were much of these in Unix) Features retained by Haskell's framework: - referential transparency - abstraction of world - possibility to divide the world in pieces Features gained by Haskell's framework: - retaining world state if needed (lazy input streams get memoised and are discarded automatically by gc) - cross-dependential pure concurrency models > Lazy database updates sound good until there's a power outage... or access > time constraints... Saving a lazy data structure is not different from marshalling an ordinary one. Power outages are able to break anything. Access time constraints are an interesting one - lazy functional languages make it more difficult to handle these, but I've never dealt with a DBMS that really did guarantee and keep access time constraints. > a flush as an operation. Isn't it somewhat hypocritical to claim that one > style of programming is a "higher" level of abstraction than another, but > at the same time they're "just" different models and any examination of > how a model works is an 'ontological question'? Try as I might I cannot Huh? You can also look at the world on different levels of abstraction, like the particle level or the object/property level, but that does not tell you anything of how the world "really" is. So yes: how the world (or some model) really works is a question of free choice. > believe the universe is stateless, because quite obviously at any given > time I can describe it's state, which may change at any given time under > circumstances far beyond my control or even my comprehension. The only I must point out that the above is a gross contradiction - how can you describe something which changes beyond your comprehension? But I'll still try to explain how you can see the world as a purely functional network (not as stateless). Thisnk the world comprises of lists of states for all objects in the world. Then the objects read each other's states and produce new states in their own list, depending on this input. You can't handle the whole world's state for two reasons (in addition to limited processing capabilities): first, the world's state might depend on your observations (this is a property of quantum mechanics the concurrent model has hard time explaining); second, some object's state might be totally independent of you observation, so that you can never know how far the actual object has gone - you can only read its "track". This is equal to people not being able to test some object's properties. In my view, functional network explains the world far better than concurrency... > way I can believe it's stateless is if I consciously ignore its state > (which is what we're doing with functional programming.) This is what > abstraction is all about, consciously ignoring things. And while I With functional abstraction, you're actually adding information about the world, because you can to some extent recover the world's past state. So I'm not ignoring things - all the information is there, it's just in a different format. And the thing we're ignoring in functional programming is not world's state - quite on the contrary, it's made very explicit - but ordre of evaluation. > And if you've never seen awkward operator overloading, I'd guess you've > probably never programmed in BASIC, Perl, or PL/I... I have in BASIC (AppleBasic for Apple II c), I don't remember it having any kind of operator overloading... Perl's operator overloading is handy but ugly, so I don't think that counts as awkward. PL/I, I haven't used... -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 23 00:23:01 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXR3-0001TW-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:22:57 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:22:46 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXQd-0001TQ-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:22:32 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:22:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXQR-0001TK-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:22:20 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-231-60.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.231.60]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA4736CEA for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:22:13 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3C9BAD92.B18E2288@dds.nl> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:17:55 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Sorting! (note: bugfix attached) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > > On reversed input, no sorting algorithm can go faster than O(n^2), since there are > > O(n^2) operations necessary for the swappings even if you know in advance that the > > This only holds for sorting algorithms that never swap non-adjacent cells. > Algorithms that may swap non-adjacent cells, like quicksort, heapsort, > mergesort, shellsort, radix-sort and so on, have usually a worst-case > performance (not average) of O(n*log n). Interestingly, shellsort actually > is just a non-locally swapping version of bubblesort. You're right, I should think before I type. > > I don't know insertion sort, but I might have reinvented the wheel. And bubble > > sort goes like this: > > 1. Perform step 2 for i=n...2 (counting backwards). > > 2. Perform step 3 for j=1...i-1. > > 3. Compare character j with character j+1 and swap if necessary. > > Well, it's very hard to come up with new sorting algorithms any more. > (Many non-obvious ones, like random-sort and genetic-sort, have also been > invented already.) What are those? Random-sort sounds like it might be similar to bogosort (look in the Jargon File, it's an algorithm that permutes the string randomly and then checks whether it succeeded, then repeats as often as necessary - the ultimate example of an it-couldn't-be-worse algrorithm, if it can even be called an algorithm, but it does work), but is probably slightly more intelligent than that. > As for bubble sort, I did remember eventually how it > works, but as you can see, it's quite depndent on arrays with destructive > update, so I wonder if the algorithm makes any ssense in a setup where you > do not have those... You can implement bubble sort in Kayak, but it won't be reversible, because given the string "abc", bubble sort will compare the "a" with the "b", then the "b" with the "c", and then - here's the problem - the "a" with the "b". > > the "z bb" problem. The new version recognizes when a=b and then > > randomly (from the bit bucket) claims either a=b. Since this > > came from the bit bucket in the first place, it can (and has to) go back > > without breaking reversibility. > > Programming in Kayak certainly seems to bring up interesting issues with > reversible algorithms :) Also the converse: it's becuase the reversibility issues that Kayak is so interesting, without them it would just be YAFOL (Yet Another Few-Operator Language). From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 23 00:29:54 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXXl-0001V9-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:53 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:46 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXXb-0001Uo-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:43 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:36 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXXS-0001Ua-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:34 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p145.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.145]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2MMTPT16931 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:29 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <008901c1d1f0$46871a60$9181ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: Subject: [lang] Re: Prnfoff, BAK, Wassisname, Fromage, Tabarnac, Brainffft, Best ? Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:51:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski, > :) Prnfoff is the name of a person. BAK and Fromage are his languages, and > I was asking for them on this list exactly because they've vanished. > Wassisname is a word implying that I have difficulties remembering some > other word: it is a contraction of the clause "What was its name?". > Tabarnac, Brainffft and BEST can be found at this list's archive, > > http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/ Oo' Sorry! I thought "Prnfoff" and "Wassisname" where esoteric languages - My bad English ! :-) > Your e (exclamation) language can be seen as brainfuck's offspring, and > you might want to add it to the language database once it becomes > functional - that's a paradigm shift for you. (Just in case, the last > remark was a joke. No, don't ask what it meant.) Ok! I'm now working on a version with unlimited memory cells, looping (like BrainFuck) and simple maths ! :) Will make an announcement. -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 23 00:29:57 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXXo-0001VK-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:56 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXXc-0001Uv-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:44 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:37 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXXU-0001Uc-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:36 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p145.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.145]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2MMTVT16972 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:31 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <008b01c1d1f0$47e60e20$9181ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: Subject: [lang] Re: Quine In e lang ? Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:12:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski, > At least the language totally lacks capabilities that ensure a quine can > be written (i.e. it has insufficient expressive power for defining a fixed > point combinator). If some quine exists, it does so by sheer luck. I don't > remember the innards or your language thoroughly, but I guess the empty > program is also a quine in e. Ok! The next release will have unlimited memory cells, looping (like Brainfuck) and simple maths! Why do you say that an empty program is also like a quine ? > By the way, e presents people with almost no challenge because it is > heavily under-TC and has operational semantics very similar to those of > brainfuck. How about coming up with a new language? The e language is just my idea of writting something useful with exclamation marks (!) Because may people (like my lecturer from last year !) think that exclamations have no good meanings in programming (or in the computer world at all!) By making it more base on BrainFuck (like Ook!, L00P etc) make it more turing complete! Almost all languages are eather base on INTERCAL or Befunge... Others (like mine) take BrainFuck as its offspring ! :) -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 23 00:29:57 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXXo-0001VI-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:56 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXXb-0001Ut-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:43 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:36 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXXS-0001Ub-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:35 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p145.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.145]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2MMTUT16964 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:30 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <008a01c1d1f0$47369440$9181ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <012701c1cf68$c2e94360$6f81ef9b@lennie> <010a01c1cf6d$c0abe440$3900a8c0@amir> Subject: [lang] Re: Quine In e lang ? Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:54:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello! > It is too limited. You only have 10 memory cells (but that can be increased > easily, so it's not a problem), and you can't loop, and it (in almost any > case) prevents you from writing quines. The next release will have unlimited memory cells, looping (like Brainfuck) and simple maths ! :) Would it then be possible to write a quine ? It will then be turing-complete ! -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 23 00:29:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXXq-0001VP-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:58 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:51 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXXf-0001V1-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:47 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:39 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oXXW-0001Ul-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:38 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p145.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.145]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2MMTYT16997 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:29:34 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <008d01c1d1f0$499a74e0$9181ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: "EsoLang Lang" Subject: [lang] VALGOL I or II ? Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:10:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello! I want any information on VALGOL I or II... I only have a Meta II version of the language (don't have a Meta II machine and Meta II is very old !) but don't seam to find anything else! I want a downloadable compiler/interpreter, complete detail documentation, examples etc. I may want to write my own interpreter for VALGOL (or my own custom VALGOL dialect) -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 23 01:09:39 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oY9q-0001c9-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:09:14 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:09:07 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oY8F-0001c3-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:07:35 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:07:28 +0200 (EET) Received: from dark.darkweb.com ([216.163.74.170]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oY87-0001bx-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:07:27 +0200 Received: from localhost (benrg@localhost) by dark.darkweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03433 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:07:12 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:07:12 -0800 (PST) From: Ben Rudiak-Gould To: Esoteric languages Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Sorting! In-Reply-To: <3C98FC93.327C8420@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > This is a working character sort utility for arbitrary length strings! > It is careful in the use of the bit bucket (or so I think, I haven't > tried to prove it, but it should be possible, probably with induction > to the string size), so you can run it in reverse on an already sorted > string to generate a random order. Very cool. > The distribution, however, is not even - if the bit bucket has an even > distribution (which it does in this implementation), then the program prefers > to shuffle less over more, as is both evident from the algorithm (which > requires more bits to be exactly right for reversal than for changing nothing) > and determined by experiment. I'm not sure an even distribution of permutations is even possible for N>2. Permutations have to be represented in the bit bucket by prefix-free codes, but any such code has a 1/2^k probability of occurring at random, and 2^k can't equal N! for any N>2. You would have to assign infinitely many prefix-free codes of unbounded length to each permutation, chosen so that their probabilities add up to 1/N!. I guess it might be possible, but it would be very tricky. > However, all permutations should eventually show up. Of course, there > are very many permutations, so you will probably need to be immortal > at the very least. Actually, all you need to be is unethical, so you can hack the RNG. :-) -- Ben From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 23 03:49:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oaea-0002i6-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 03:49:08 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 03:49:01 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oacl-0002ek-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 03:47:15 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 03:47:08 +0200 (EET) Received: from dark.darkweb.com ([216.163.74.170]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oacd-0002ee-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 03:47:07 +0200 Received: from localhost (benrg@localhost) by dark.darkweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07282 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:46:57 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:46:57 -0800 (PST) From: Ben Rudiak-Gould To: Esoteric languages Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Sorting! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > Cool to see stuff like this, by the way. (Though I still think the bit > bucket should not be seen as immediately emitting bits as heat, but rather > as redirected to the upper levels just in case some program would make use > of the discarded bits, so as to reduce heating.) Even if the bits are not used, the system might prefer to losslessly move the bits to the physical edge of the machine before destroying them, to simplify cooling. In any case, I agree that the disposition of the bits should be at the system's discretion, not the program's. But this doesn't mean that bits pushed into the bit bucket should necessarily be preserved until program exit. A Kayak program can run for an arbitrarily long time and accumulate a lot of garbage; the system might want to dispose of it sooner rather than later. Perhaps it would be better to leave this up to the implementation. Unfortunately, saying that the bits might disappear is no different from saying that they do. "Practical" issues on nonexistent hardware aside, I'd rather preserve the bits simply because it's more reversible. The C++ interpreter preserves the bits and future versions will continue to do so. -- Ben From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 23 10:17:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ogiW-0003ED-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:17:36 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:17:29 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oggK-0003CB-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:15:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:15:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16oggD-0003C5-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:15:13 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2N8F8r28470 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:15:08 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2N8F2e12181 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:15:05 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:15:02 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Quine In e lang ? In-Reply-To: <008b01c1d1f0$47e60e20$9181ef9b@lennie> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, D De Villiers wrote: > The next release will have unlimited memory cells, looping (like Brainfuck) > and simple maths ! :) Would it then be possible to write a quine ? It will > then be turing-complete ! It is certainly possible to write a quine in any Turing-complete language. > > point combinator). If some quine exists, it does so by sheer luck. I don't > > remember the innards or your language thoroughly, but I guess the empty > > program is also a quine in e. > Why do you say that an empty program is also like a quine ? Well, in many languages empty programs produce empty output, so the output is equal to the program. This complieswith the definition of quine. > exclamations have no good meanings in programming (or in the computer world Hm. I tend to think that exclamation points have little use in natural language (during the three-four years I've been posting to the list, Iguess my exclamation point total does not exceed 20). And I discard most exclamation-point-containing advertisements without looking at them. On the other hand, in programming languages exclamation points do have their use. For example, I find C's usage of ! for the not operator quite intuitive. Erlang's message passing operator is !, and that is neatly orthogonal with bang paths used in UUCP networks. In probabilistic and combinatorial mathematics the shorthand of using ! for factorial is indispensable for the readability of the formulae. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 23 11:23:02 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ohji-0003Kp-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:22:54 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:22:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ohj5-0003Ke-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:22:15 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:22:07 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ohiw-0003KR-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:22:06 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p230.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.230]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2N9M2T14224 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:22:02 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <011f01c1d24b$6f94fde0$e681ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: Subject: [lang] Re: TECO ? Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:09:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc John Colagioia, > For the last few years, I've used it in my Programming Languages > course, as an illustration of from where many languages arise (i.e., > software configuration and scripting). Thanks! For your reply :)) Isn't it hard for someone (your students) to learn TECO because of its esoteric syntax ? If they've no programming knowledge/experience etc. -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 23 11:23:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ohji-0003Kq-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:22:54 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:22:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ohj5-0003Kd-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:22:15 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:22:07 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ohiw-0003KS-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:22:06 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p230.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.230]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2N9M3T14229 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:22:03 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <012001c1d24b$703cd6a0$e681ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <20020319044748.29467.qmail@web13503.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: [lang] Re: TECO ? Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:11:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello! > Apparently so --- from an HD-resident, aging Simtel > index, I get: > > ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/editor/pctco295.zip > 62968 8 960228 PCTECO: Fully implemented TECO-11 > editor clone > > ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/editor/teco.zip > 20743 8 860714 The TECO editor > If the version of Windows you're using has real DOS, > at least one of them > should work. Thank You! ;)) -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 23 15:03:55 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16olBS-0003hT-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:03:46 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:03:39 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16olAY-0003hH-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:02:50 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:02:43 +0200 (EET) Received: from rama.poly.edu ([128.238.10.212]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16olAP-0003h7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:02:41 +0200 Received: (qmail 7924 invoked by uid 20150); 23 Mar 2002 13:02:07 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 08:02:06 -0500 (EST) From: John Colagioia X-Sender: jcolag@rama To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: TECO ? In-Reply-To: <011f01c1d24b$6f94fde0$e681ef9b@lennie> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, D De Villiers wrote: > John Colagioia, > > For the last few years, I've used it in my Programming Languages > > course, as an illustration of from where many languages arise (i.e., > > software configuration and scripting). > Thanks! For your reply :)) > Isn't it hard for someone (your students) to learn TECO because of its > esoteric syntax ? If they've no programming knowledge/experience etc. It's a graduate-level Computer Science course, so they have programming experience. My goal in the course (which differs significantly from the school's goal, but that doesn't bother anybody much) is to get the students to the point where they know what to look for when learning a new language. A typical semester involves assignments in APL, Befunge, BrainF***, RUBE, TECO, and the like (Inform, too, but that's hardly "esoteric" in the same sense of the word), in addition to assignments like "build your own integer arithmetic using the non-numerical features of Prolog," "implement a recursive algorithm without using language-level recursion," and so on. This is a direct reaction/protest to the textbook I am required to use, which appears to cover such widely diverse languages as C++, Java, LISP, and PERL, with occasional lip service to Prolog and other such "obscure" languages. Argh. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 23 19:49:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16opdK-0004C0-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:48:50 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:48:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16opcQ-0004Bt-00; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:47:54 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:47:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16opcH-0004Bn-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:47:45 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2NHlir23193 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:47:44 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2NHlcw07268 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:47:38 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:47:38 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [monads] A small library for Ocaml Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-696251126-1638782119-1016905658=:6272" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ---696251126-1638782119-1016905658=:6272 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Here is a small library that uses a functor to elevate most common operations into a monad. If you give the continuation monad to the functor, for example, and then "open" the resulting structure, you should be able to do most of your programming within the monad, with relatively similar syntax to the one you'd normally be using. (Constants have to be "return"ed, because there is no way to redefine constants in Ocaml. Maybe some shorthand operator could be of some use.) For example, to program in a list monad one would use: open Monad module MList : Monad = struct type 'a m = 'a list let bind l1 f = List.concat (List.map f l1) let return a = [a] let failure () = [] end module ListOps = MonadOps(MList) open ListOps .... code here I was also going to implement a library for monoids, but I couldn't come up with any relevant operations (or I did with a few, but not enough to make sense to build a functor: join, guard). Most of the monad operations are from the Haskell library, though I rewrite them based on the description. 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(reversible merge sort) References: <3C9A4F19.A30D6FD1@dds.nl> <20020322053919.A10628@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > As for the bug fix, my program wasn't fully reversible after all. > > Hmm, the same happened to me with the merge sort program ... It's easy to overlook, because sorting algorithms generally think in terms of "less than" and "greater than", and there no real place for "equal to". By the way, both of our sorting programs solve the problem by randomizing the comparison if it is equal. Another approach (I think) would be to check for equality when discarding the comparison, which (with some algorithms, probably not all) has the added benefit of stability (that is, two characters which are equal are kept in place - useless when examining only characters, but important for larger data types which have extra data that is not sorted along). Another interesting thing to note is that mergesort has a more even distribution of permutations than insertion sort (I looked it up and concluded that it is indeed the algorithm used in my sorting program) when run in reverse. This can be explained from the times: insertion sort "likes" certainpermutations better than others when given as imput, and therefore also "likes" them more as output. Here, the first "likes" means that it can sort it quickly, while the second "likes" means that is has a higher chance of choosing it. Mergesort, on the other hand, takes about the same time for any permutations, and therefore also has about equal chances. And quicksort, which is normally very fast but knows some pathological cases, will almost never output said pathological cases (which, in some implementations, include the sorted list!). It's interesting what one can see about an algorithm by reversing it, even though it was never intended to be reversed in the first place. By the way, have you submitted your mergesort program to the Iron Programmer category of the Essies? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Mar 24 00:19:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16otr6-0004kB-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 00:19:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 00:19:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16otqn-0004k4-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 00:19:01 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 00:18:54 +0200 (EET) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16otqg-0004jy-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 00:18:54 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-239-95.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.239.95]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290838A3149 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 2002 23:18:51 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3C9CFEC7.DC7B53E3@dds.nl> Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 23:16:39 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Sorting! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote: > On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > > > Cool to see stuff like this, by the way. (Though I still think the bit > > bucket should not be seen as immediately emitting bits as heat, but rather > > as redirected to the upper levels just in case some program would make use > > of the discarded bits, so as to reduce heating.) > > But this doesn't mean that bits pushed into the bit bucket should > necessarily be preserved until program exit. A Kayak program can run for > an arbitrarily long time and accumulate a lot of garbage; the system might > want to dispose of it sooner rather than later. Perhaps it would be better > to leave this up to the implementation. Unfortunately, saying that the > bits might disappear is no different from saying that they do. Also, if you keep around the bit bucket, then you still need only one bit bucket for the whole system (rather than per program), so multitasking programs will ruin the bit bucket. > I'd rather preserve the > bits simply because it's more reversible. It matters with code like "(bb|in) {bb[z|x]bb bb[x|z]bb} (out|bb)", but I don't think anyone would actually do such a thing. Of course, I've been wrong more often... > The C++ interpreter preserves > the bits and future versions will continue to do so. But the point is, is this behaviour required for a valid implementation or is it only a feature of this particular one? If I write my own implementation of Kayak, which does not preserve the bit bucket, then is that a valid implementation according to the specifications? This last question is particularly important if anyone ever want to make a Kayak-in-Kayak interpreter, which could implement the bit bucket in the interpreted program with its own bit bucket, but might also use the bit bucket itself, thereby clobbering it with bits that weren't put there by the interpreted program. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Mar 24 06:06:16 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ozGU-0005X1-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:05:54 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:05:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ozFo-0005Wv-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:05:12 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:05:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ozFb-0005Wl-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:04:59 +0200 Received: from irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.66]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2O44rm08495 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 05:04:53 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2O44rg29273 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 05:04:53 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 05:04:53 +0100 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Sorting! (reversible merge sort) Message-ID: <20020324050453.A28896@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <3C9A4F19.A30D6FD1@dds.nl> <20020322053919.A10628@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> <3C9CF2B1.52DC3B29@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <3C9CF2B1.52DC3B29@dds.nl>; from Milo van Handel on Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 10:25:05PM +0100 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Milo van Handel wrote: [result of comparison if the two compared values are equal] > It's easy to overlook, because sorting algorithms generally think in terms of > "less than" and "greater than", and there no real place for "equal to". By > the way, both of our sorting programs solve the problem by randomizing the > comparison if it is equal. I think that's the easier way and goes with fewer changes to the program, so it was the obvious one to choose. > Another approach (I think) would be to check for > equality when discarding the comparison, Hmm, the tricky part is to check for the same equality when the program is run in reverse ... looks like this is a nontrivial problem with merge sort; with insertion sort, you can simply check the two elements you would've swapped when running the program forward for equality, like (pseudocode) equal (a|b|aeb). << test a=b (equal should use aeb|aeb to return true) >> aeb | [ less (a|b|alb). alb [ swap (a|b). ] bb ] | aeb equal (a|b|aeb). << cancel out change above >> > which (with some algorithms, probably not all) > has the added benefit of stability. [...] An example where this isn't true is Mergesort, which is pretty hard (although, as I feel, not impossible) to make do stable sorting. > Another interesting thing to note is that mergesort has a more even > distribution > of permutations than insertion sort (I looked it up and concluded that it is > indeed the algorithm used in my sorting program) when run in reverse. > This can > be explained from the times: insertion sort "likes" certainpermutations better > than others when given as imput, and therefore also "likes" them more as > output. > Here, the first "likes" means that it can sort it quickly, while the second > "likes" means that is has a higher chance of choosing it. Mergesort, on the > other hand, takes about the same time for any permutations, and therefore also > has about equal chances. To be precise, Mergesort for 2^n elements takes between n*2^(n-1) and (n-1)*2^n+1 comparisons, each of which contributes one bit to the bit bucket, while insertion sort takes, for n elements, between n-1 and n*(n-1)/2 comparisons. This means that for 64 elements, there are permutations with probabilities ranging from 2^-321 to 2^-192, which is pretty far from a truly even distribution, but better than the 2^-2016..2^-63 of insertion sort. > By the way, have you submitted your mergesort program to the Iron Programmer > category of the Essies? No, for the deadline was over (I think) when I wrote the program and I'm not sure it fits the category ... after all, the Mergesort was just the theme ingredient, not the whole dish ... Bertram -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Mar 24 06:12:18 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ozMe-0005YA-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:12:16 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:12:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ozMW-0005Y3-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:12:08 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:12:01 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.inf.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.2.1]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ozMO-0005Xx-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:12:00 +0200 Received: from irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.2.66]) by mail.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2O4Bxm08614 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 05:11:59 +0100 (MET) Received: (from bf3@localhost) by irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) id g2O4BwZ29301 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 05:11:58 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 05:11:58 +0100 From: Bertram Felgenhauer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Sorting! Message-ID: <20020324051158.B28896@irz601.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <3C9CFEC7.DC7B53E3@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <3C9CFEC7.DC7B53E3@dds.nl>; from Milo van Handel on Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 11:16:39PM +0100 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Milo van Handel wrote: > Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote: > > I'd rather preserve the > > bits simply because it's more reversible. > > It matters with code like "(bb|in) {bb[z|x]bb bb[x|z]bb} (out|bb)", but I don't > think anyone would actually do such a thing. Of course, I've been wrong more > often... Hmm, I'd also prefer the bit bucket to keep the bits pushed on it around, for the simple reason that if we do that it actually behaves like a stack [0], that is, like everything else around ... meaning that silly (a|b) { a b b a } (a|b) function is guaranteed not to modify a nor b, even if b happens to be the bit bucket. Otherwise, the possibility of a variable being the bit bucket complicates reasoning about programs and may open up possibilities for subtle bugs (not that it matters much with a toy language like this). Bertram [0] just with a sequence of random bits at the bottom instead of a sequence of zeroes -- `.oo' "Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they ,. (`-' are subtle and quick to anger." -- J.R.R. Tolkien '^\`-' ) "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you c-L'- are crunchy and good with ketchup." -- Terry Pratchett From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Mar 24 14:50:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16p7RB-0006UE-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:49:29 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:49:22 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16p7PK-0006Tx-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:47:34 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:47:27 +0200 (EET) Received: from [212.16.6.108] (helo=frox25.dhs.org) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16p7PB-0006Tr-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:47:25 +0200 Received: (qmail 20569 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2002 12:37:13 -0000 Received: from heartw.ih (10.0.17.4) by nova.ih with SMTP; 24 Mar 2002 12:37:13 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:39:46 +0300 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <6677394705.20020324153946@frox25.dhs.org> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [Kayak] another quine In-reply-To: <15510.10950.112798.102058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <3C94F28E.82F3DE92@dds.nl> <15510.10950.112798.102058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------6F1E08B3D714826" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.dhs.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.dhs.org Precedence: bulk X-list: misc ------------6F1E08B3D714826 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All! Monday, March 18, 2002, 8:58:30 PM, David Fletcher wrote: > A more compact version would be possible - the generated source is ~78K. After yours and Milo's, third quine on Kayak appears in attachment. > It can be run backwards with itself as input, producing the null string. Unfortunately, for compactness this one is not reversible. > I have a suggestion for benrg too: it would be good if source codes > could work backwards without having to invert the various types of > bracket. More shorter quine (3 bits per char) would be possible if in language specification we replace curved brackets with squared (How long Brainf*ck will influence on eso-language design? :) Thank you, Ben! Kayak is very interesting! I also have Kayak interpreter on Perl. It works good on small programs, but fails on big quines (looks like 40000 recursive calls for Perl are too much). Is somebody interested? -- Mtv Europe Kayak answer to question about universe and everything is: (e|i){}(e|i) ------------6F1E08B3D714826 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="quine-mtve.kayak" Content-Transfer-Encoding: x-uue Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="quine-mtve.kayak" begin 644 quine-mtve.kayak M,"@Q*7LP?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@ M,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P M(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\ M,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q M(#`@,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@ M,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P M?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\ M,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q M(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@ M,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P 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M(#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@ M,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q M(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@ M,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P M(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@ M,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P(#$@,"`Q M(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@ M,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P M(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\ M,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q M(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@ M,"`Q(#`@,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P M(#$@,'PQ('TH,2DQ(#$H,7PR?#,I>S%;,"`R(#!\,B`Q6S$@,B`P?#(@,'PR M(#%;,'PP73$@,"`R(#%\,B`P?#)=?%LR?#(@,5LP?#(@,"`R(#!\,B`P(#(@ M,"`R(#$@,EU\6S%;,'PR(#`@,B`P(#(@,"`R77Q;,GPR(#!\,B`P?#(@,'PR M(#!\,ETS(#`@,B`P(#)=,UTS(#!\,B`Q*#%\,GPS*3)=?%LQ6S`@,B`P(#(@ M,'PR(#!\,B`P(#(@,"`R(#$@,B`Q(#(@,'PR(#$H,7PR?#,I,ETS73-]*#%\ M,GPS*3(@,2@Q?#)\,RE[,"`Q,2`P(#$Q(#!\,3$@,"`Q,2`Q?#$Q(#`@,3$@ M,"`Q,2`P?#$Q(#!\,3$@,"`Q,2`P?#$Q(#`@,3$@,'PQ,2`P(#$Q(#`@,3$@ M,'PQ,2`Q*#$Q?#)\,RDR?2@Q?#)\,RDQ(#$H,7PR?#,I>S%;,'PP77Q;,5LP M?#!=,5U\,2`P6S$H,7PR?#,I,2`Q*#%\,GPS*3$@,2@Q?#)\,RDQ(#$H,7PR M?#,I,2`Q*#%\,GPS*3-=,WTH,7PR?#,I,R@S?#$Q*7LP*#$I,2`Q*#%\,GPS M*3(@,"@Q*3$@,2@Q?#)\,RDS(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@ M,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ 8(#!\,2`P?#$@,2@Q?#)\,RDR?2@R?#,I ` end ------------6F1E08B3D714826-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Mar 24 19:06:00 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pBR6-0006y9-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:05:40 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:05:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pBPO-0006xp-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:03:54 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:03:48 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pBPG-0006xh-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:03:46 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p145.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.145]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2OH22K20634 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:02:03 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <004701c1d354$de395f20$9181ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <008d01c1d1f0$499a74e0$9181ef9b@lennie> Subject: [lang] Re: VALGOL I or II ? Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:49:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > I want any information on VALGOL I or II... I only have a Meta II version of > the language (don't have a Meta II machine and Meta II is very old !) but > don't seam to find anything else! I want a downloadable > compiler/interpreter, complete detail documentation, examples etc. I may > want to write my own interpreter for VALGOL (or my own custom VALGOL > dialect) GeeeeWizzz ! Anything ? -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Mar 24 19:06:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pBRD-0006yF-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:05:47 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:05:40 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pBPT-0006xv-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:03:59 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:03:52 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pBPJ-0006xn-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:03:50 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p145.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.145]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2OH1XK20555 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:01:46 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <004601c1d354$d6fcf460$9181ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: "EsoLang Lang" References: Subject: [lang] ANN: Stupid Quine In e ! Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 17:03:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C1D355.C3AD9B20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C1D355.C3AD9B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Panu A Kalliokoski, > Well, in many languages empty programs produce empty output, so the output > is equal to the program. This complieswith the definition of quine. The file-attachment (stupidquine.e) is the first e language quine. It only have comments (no exclamation mark instructions), no output and produce no output. So the output is equal to the program. I call it "stupid"-"quine" because its not a "real" working quine (no challenge there) And only go with the definition of a quine. If do get to write a "real" (no stupid) quine (with my next e lang release) then please email me at ddevilliers@lando.co.za And I'll include it in the "Quine" section on the e lang website. > Hm. I tend to think that exclamation points have little use in natural > language (during the three-four years I've been posting to the list, > Iguess my exclamation point total does not exceed 20). And I discard most > exclamation-point-containing advertisements without looking at them. On > the other hand, in programming languages exclamation points do have their > use. For example, I find C's usage of ! for the not operator quite > intuitive. Erlang's message passing operator is !, and that is neatly > orthogonal with bang paths used in UUCP networks. In probabilistic and > combinatorial mathematics the shorthand of using ! for factorial is > indispensable for the readability of the formulae. At least the e language can do something usefull with exclamation marks, even if its just writting the "Hello World!" ! Alot more than other langauges can do. In some languages its use for a comment indicator (I think Python). So you say its wrong for using it as output command? -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C1D355.C3AD9B20 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="stupidquine.e" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="stupidquine.e" StupidQuine.e A simple stupid quine in the e language=20 In the theory of a quine an empty program produce empty=20 output so the output is equal to the program=20 This is not a real quine - no challenge If you do write a real quine = then please email it to me at ddevilliers@lando.co.za ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C1D355.C3AD9B20-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Mar 24 20:37:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pCrt-0007F9-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:37:25 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:37:18 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pCqn-0007F0-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:36:17 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:36:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com ([192.108.102.143]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pCqf-0007Eu-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:36:09 +0200 Received: from amir amirlb@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.219.233.153] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.88 $ on Novell NetWare; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:36:01 -0700 Message-ID: <021101c1d362$692bf9f0$3900a8c0@amir> From: To: References: <004601c1d354$d6fcf460$9181ef9b@lennie> Subject: [lang] Re: ANN: Stupid Quine In e ! Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:33:30 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > The file-attachment (stupidquine.e) is the first e language quine. It only > have comments (no exclamation mark instructions), no output and produce no > output. So the output is equal to the program. Well, the source file is not empty, yet it doesn't produce any output, so the source isn't equal to the output, therefore it is not a quine. -- Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! lightstep (Amir Livne) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Mar 24 20:38:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pCtN-0007Fc-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:38:57 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:38:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pCtE-0007FW-00; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:38:48 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:38:42 +0200 (EET) Received: from [212.16.6.108] (helo=frox25.dhs.org) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pCt7-0007FQ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:38:41 +0200 Received: (qmail 24296 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2002 18:28:25 -0000 Received: from heartw.ih (10.0.17.4) by nova.ih with SMTP; 24 Mar 2002 18:28:25 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:31:03 +0300 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <5698475215.20020324213103@frox25.dhs.org> To: "EsoLang Lang" Subject: [lang] Re: ANN: Stupid Quine In e ! In-reply-To: <004601c1d354$d6fcf460$9181ef9b@lennie> References: <004601c1d354$d6fcf460$9181ef9b@lennie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.dhs.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.dhs.org Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello All! Sunday, March 24, 2002, 6:03:05 PM, Lennie De Villiers wrote: > The file-attachment (stupidquine.e) is the first e language quine. It only > have comments (no exclamation mark instructions), no output and produce no > output. So the output is equal to the program. Looks like your home page unavailable now, so all the following relate to version 1.0 of 'e' (according e_10_C.zip package obtained from archive) First of all, beware! Your referrer C implementation contains security hole (buffer overflow). Second, because of absence any control structures and highly linear structure of language I believe it's impossible to write (normal) quine. And third, a little consolation - here is 'e' v1.0 interpreter on Perl with one line and seven exclamation marks: #! /usr/bin/perl -n y/!1/1!/+s/1+/$&%9<5?$&<17?$![$!]:$!+=$&%9%2*2-1:printf$&%3?'%d':'%c',$![$!]/ge > (with my next e lang release) New language design ideas are always welcome. -- Mtv Europe! From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Mar 25 00:21:14 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pGLc-0007m5-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:20:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:20:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pGIY-0007ln-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:17:10 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:17:03 +0200 (EET) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pGIQ-0007lh-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:17:02 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-210-26.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.210.26]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4078A4177 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:16:57 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3C9D043E.4D412DD6@dds.nl> Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 23:39:58 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Quine In e lang ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, D De Villiers wrote: > > The next release will have unlimited memory cells, looping (like Brainfuck) > > and simple maths ! :) Would it then be possible to write a quine ? It will > > then be turing-complete ! > > It is certainly possible to write a quine in any Turing-complete language. Not quite, it also needs sufficient I/O capabilities (well, only O actually, but I never said that "sufficient" is a lot). > > > point combinator). If some quine exists, it does so by sheer luck. I don't > > > remember the innards or your language thoroughly, but I guess the empty > > > program is also a quine in e. > > Why do you say that an empty program is also like a quine ? > > Well, in many languages empty programs produce empty output, so the output > is equal to the program. This complieswith the definition of quine. But it is a very boring one. In fact, I think we should explicitly rule it out... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Mar 25 00:51:25 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pGpW-0007rB-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:51:14 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:51:08 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pGp7-0007r5-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:50:49 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:50:42 +0200 (EET) Received: from web14008.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.175.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pGoz-0007qy-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:50:41 +0200 Message-ID: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.117.133.118] by web14008.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:50:35 GMT Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:50:35 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stephen=20Sykes?= Subject: [lang] Re: Quine In e lang ? To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <3C9D043E.4D412DD6@dds.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > > > Why do you say that an empty program is also like a quine ? > > > > Well, in many languages empty programs produce empty output, so the > output > > is equal to the program. This complieswith the definition of quine. > > But it is a very boring one. In fact, I think we should explicitly rule > it > out... If you like null programs as quines, then you will be entertained by my new programming language where *every* possible program is a quine. I call the language 'cat'... +- S.D.Sykes - www.stephensykes.com - +44 777 577 2637 - | "You have all become victims of the Evil Midnight Bomber | What Bombs... Hey! PAY ATTENTION!" -- The Evil Midnight | Bomber What Bombs at Midnight __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Mar 25 02:24:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pIHA-00083F-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:23:52 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:23:38 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pIFF-000834-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:21:53 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:21:46 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com ([192.108.102.143]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pIF7-00082y-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:21:45 +0200 Received: from amir amirlb@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.219.233.153] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.88 $ on Novell NetWare; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 17:21:31 -0700 Message-ID: <023701c1d392$af6c2270$3900a8c0@amir> From: To: References: <3C9D043E.4D412DD6@dds.nl> Subject: [lang] Re: Quines [was: Re: Quine In e lang ?] Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:19:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > > Well, in many languages empty programs produce empty output, so the output > > is equal to the program. This complieswith the definition of quine. > > But it is a very boring one. In fact, I think we should explicitly rule it > out... I don't think so. You can certainly come up with a twisted, malbolge-like language, where you can't understand how the commands are ordered, and empty spaces at some places act as if they are some commands, but still, the empty program will only twist around some memory cells, and eat thatever it prints before it goes to the display (yeah, i've added a command to destroy buffered output). So the empty program will be a quine, bot not a simple one. -- Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! lightstep (Amir Livne) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Mar 25 03:26:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pJFt-0008KL-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:26:37 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:26:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pJF5-0008KE-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:25:48 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:25:41 +0200 (EET) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pJEx-0008K8-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:25:40 +0200 Received: from there (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g2P1PNs31535 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:25:27 -0700 Message-Id: <200203250125.g2P1PNs31535@ns3.safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Quine In e lang ? Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:22:46 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sunday 24 March 2002 03:50 pm, you wrote: > If you like null programs as quines, then you will be entertained by my > new programming language where *every* possible program is a quine. I call > the language 'cat'... Ah, I'm familiar with the language! I consider the dialect a subset of my now-venerable HQ9+. :-) -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Mar 25 03:58:43 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pJkt-0008Rn-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:58:39 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:58:32 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pJke-0008Rh-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:58:24 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:58:17 +0200 (EET) Received: from 80-25-141-62.uc.nombres.ttd.es ([80.25.141.62] helo=es.gnu.org) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pJkW-0008Rb-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:58:16 +0200 Received: (from jemarch@localhost) by es.gnu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id CAA31464; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:56:59 GMT Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:56:59 GMT Message-Id: <200203250256.CAA31464@es.gnu.org> From: "Jose E. Marchesi" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi CC: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-reply-to: <200203250125.g2P1PNs31535@ns3.safety.net> (cbiffle@safety.net) Subject: [lang] Re: Quine In e lang ? References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <200203250125.g2P1PNs31535@ns3.safety.net> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jemarch@es.gnu.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jemarch@es.gnu.org Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sunday 24 March 2002 03:50 pm, you wrote: > If you like null programs as quines, then you will be entertained by my > new programming language where *every* possible program is a quine. I call > the language 'cat'... Hum, i think the interpreter is 'cat'. The language could be called "ASCII*" ;) -- Jose E. Marchesi GNU Spain http://es.gnu.org GNUs Not Unix! http://www.gnu.org -- "And if cynics ridicule freedom, ridicule community... if 'hard nosed realists' say that profit is the only ideal...just ignore them, and use copyleft all the same." -- RMS --- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Mar 25 11:06:07 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pQQH-0009SP-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:05:49 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:05:43 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pQPW-0009S7-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:05:02 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:04:55 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pQPO-0009S1-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:04:54 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2P94rr20182 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:04:53 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2P94oZ24112 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:04:50 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:04:49 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [quines] quine classes (was: Quine In e lang ?) In-Reply-To: <3C9D043E.4D412DD6@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > > It is certainly possible to write a quine in any Turing-complete language. > Not quite, it also needs sufficient I/O capabilities (well, only O > actually, but I never said that "sufficient" is a lot). Yes - although what might be considered "input" and "output" is a lot more vague than the concept of quine itself. Any Turing-complete language should have a way to specify stop conditions. Lacking stream-like output, a program's state when it fulfills its stop condition can be seen as its output. In this way, any program that does nothing is also a quine. It quite much falls in the same category as an empty quine - the program has no "content" so it does not have to do anything to reach its track. We could call this category "single-state quines", and specify them as "quines that do not involve any processing / evaluation". For example, all programs in the Unix language "cat" are single-state quines. Interestingly, in functional languages that are idempotent (evaluating the result of an already-evaluated expression is guaranteed to have no effect), if we lack I/O, the only quines are single-state quines. If a quine would perform some evaluation, and if it (by definition) evaluates to its beginning state, then it will continue to perform the evaluation - it cannot be that first time the state would allow for some evaluation and the second time it would not. This makes a quine effectively equivalent to an infinite loop in the language, a property noticed on this list some while ago and leading to such languages as Muriel and Smurf. The category of quines that are based on a non-idempotent expression evaluating to itself, we could call "self-evaluating quines". For example, the classic LISP quine ((lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x))))) belongs to this category. It is also possible to form more esoteric quines in this category, like (eval (Y quote)), where Y = (lambda (f) ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (f (x x))))), which evaluates to an infinitely-quoted expression - so evaluating it one round takes away one level of quotation, leaving infinitely many quotes. (My apologies if I make programming mistakes - I'm a very very very bad lispist.) The classic infinite loop, which is essentially a quine, in idempotent languages is (using a lambda notation) (\x.x x)(\x.x x). The concept of I/O is particularly difficult because it might be that the program never was input in the same way as it produces output - not every program is a character stream, for example. > > Well, in many languages empty programs produce empty output, so the output > > is equal to the program. This complieswith the definition of quine. > But it is a very boring one. In fact, I think we should explicitly rule it > out... No, I think we should keep the concept of a quine as generic as possible. Studying the many "non-proper" quines keeps the mind keen. For example, there is the whole class of quines that read themselves. Now that I consider cheating. Consider the following quine: #!/bin/sh /bin/cat quine What is clearly going on in here is that we have to preserve the difference between code and data in order for the classical concept of quine to be relevant. I'm going to name this category of quines "self-reading". Actually, any language that features an "eval" command / function already lets you cheat somewhat - again by mixing code and data, but this time not considering code as data but vice versa. For some odd reason, this way of cheating I don't consider too grave anymore. For example, it can be used to form the infinite loop in LISP: ((lambda (x) (eval (x x))) (lambda (x) (eval (x x)))) Or to make quines that contain themselves only once: ((lambda (x) ((eval x) x)) (quote (lambda (self) (list (quote (lambda (x) ((eval x) x)) (list (quote quote) self))))) Here's the same thing in bash (Author: Matt Corks, njaharve@waterloo.ca): #!/bin/bash read foo<<'EOF';eval $foo echo '#!/bin/bash';echo 'read foo<<"EOF";eval $foo';echo $foo;echo EOF EOF Note that the quines do not contain themselves twice but just the code to call themselves with themselves. This code would be the same whatever the quine was. Another use of this technique is to produce programs that make quines (that's how most conventional quines are made): when run, they take the data, then form both the program and the data based on that, and put them together as a quine. (These two forms, the quine form and the quine-forming form are, by the way, almost equivalent to the two standard ways to write the Y combinator, \f.(\x.f(x x))(\x.f(x x)) and \f.(\x.x x)(\x.f(x x)).) For example, the "head"s of the quines above (lambda (x) ((eval x) x)) and read foo<<'EOF';eval $foo could also be used to bootstrap a "conventional quine" by placing the data half of the quine in the data section. We might call this category "data-evaluating quines". Their crucial difference to "true quines" is that the representation of the program and the data is exactly the same, so the program does not have to do any processing to form the program from the data. It can then be said that "true quines" use some representation for the data which is not the same as the representation of the program. If we went further we could demand that the actual representation is such that anything could be done based on it - that is, representationally Turing-complete. This will exclude many quines that are thought of as true quines, because they often use a representation that is especially suited for quining - for example, my Unlambda quine was like that. Another interesting issue is that of shell / C / whatever quoting rules, which actually force the programmer to re-form the data from the data, while the data can be used as code as such. However, the situation is, in complexity, essentially equivalent to that where you have to form the code from the data and the data can be used as such. -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Mar 25 11:59:03 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pRFk-0009eo-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:59:00 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:58:53 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pRFT-0009ei-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:58:43 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:58:36 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com ([192.108.102.143]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pRFL-0009eb-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:58:36 +0200 Received: from amir amirlb@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.219.233.153] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.88 $ on Novell NetWare; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:58:25 -0700 Message-ID: <025d01c1d3e3$45262810$3900a8c0@amir> From: To: References: Subject: [lang] Re: [quines] quine classes Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:55:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > It can then be said that "true quines" use some representation for the > data which is not the same as the representation of the program. If we > went further we could demand that the actual representation is such that > anything could be done based on it - that is, representationally > Turing-complete. This will exclude many quines that are thought of as true > quines, because they often use a representation that is especially suited > for quining - for example, my Unlambda quine was like that. I believe that even "regular" quines in mainstream imperative languages (C, Pascal, etc) there is a difference between the data and the code. I don't mean the quoting (which is language-specific), but the order of them in the source code: the data has to appear before the code. this way, everything after the end of the data appears twice in the quine, and things before the data can appear once (it might sound a little similar to "A page about quines" by David Madore). This makes the distinction between the code and the data at the syntactic level, so the are represented differently. -- Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! lightstep (Amir Livne) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Mar 25 12:47:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pS0z-0009pC-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:47:49 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:47:42 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pRzw-0009p1-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:46:44 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:46:37 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pRzp-0009ov-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:46:37 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2PAkZr22352 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:46:36 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2PAkWA29375 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:46:32 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:46:32 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] Sorting! (note: bugfix attached) In-Reply-To: <3C9BAD92.B18E2288@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > > Well, it's very hard to come up with new sorting algorithms any more. > > (Many non-obvious ones, like random-sort and genetic-sort, have also been > > invented already.) > What are those? Random-sort sounds like it might be similar to bogosort Bogosort is one subclass of random-sort: random-sort might not permutate the whole string randomly, but perhaps only parts of it. In practice, for every (deterministic) sorting method there are several non-deterministic ones which only specify the operations by constraints of what their result should be. For example, a mergesort where every merge operation's comparison clause is replaced by a random bit and where merge's results are checked for ordering is a random-sort. > Also the converse: it's becuase the reversibility issues that Kayak is > so interesting, without them it would just be YAFOL (Yet Another > Few-Operator Language). True. Although the syntax is pretty and the language is elegant - probably more so than, for example, brainfuck. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Mar 25 23:57:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcSq-000Bv3-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:57:16 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:57:09 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcRb-000Bud-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:55:59 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:55:52 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcRR-000BuQ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:55:49 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p187.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.187]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2PLtiK29439 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:55:44 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <002b01c1d447$0cce55a0$bb81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <004601c1d354$d6fcf460$9181ef9b@lennie> <021101c1d362$692bf9f0$3900a8c0@amir> Subject: [lang] Re: ANN: Stupid Quine In e ! Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:15:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello! > Well, the source file is not empty, yet it doesn't produce any output, so > the source isn't equal to the output, therefore it is not a quine. The source-file (stupidquine.e) only contains useless comments (they do nothing!), it doesn't produce any output. The source is equal to the output because there's no exclamation marks (!) instructions. -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Mar 25 23:57:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcSq-000Bv4-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:57:16 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:57:09 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcRb-000Buc-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:55:59 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:55:51 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcRR-000BuR-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:55:50 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p187.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.187]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2PLtjK29444 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:55:45 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: "EsoLang Lang" References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: [lang] cat lang ? (Was: Re: Quine In e lang ?) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:29:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Stephen Sykes, > If you like null programs as quines, then you will be entertained by my > new programming language where *every* possible program is a quine. I call > the language 'cat'... Yes! This seams to be the rule of quines ! "cat" ? Does this language exist ? Where can I get it ? -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Mar 25 23:57:36 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcSh-000Bus-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:57:07 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:57:00 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcRm-000Bul-00; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:56:10 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:56:03 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcRd-000BuP-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:56:02 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p187.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.187]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2PLthK29434 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:55:43 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <002a01c1d447$0c0e12e0$bb81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <004601c1d354$d6fcf460$9181ef9b@lennie> <5698475215.20020324213103@frox25.dhs.org> Subject: [lang] Re: ANN: Stupid Quine In e ! Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:11:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Mtv Europe, > Looks like your home page unavailable now, so all the following relate to > version 1.0 of 'e' (according e_10_C.zip package obtained from archive) - www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ I'm still working on e v1.5 (avialable soon !) > First of all, beware! Your referrer C implementation contains > security hole (buffer overflow). Ooops! Well, Jens Baader wrote the C implementation (will ask him to fix the problem), I only did the Java and PalmOS versions. > And third, a little consolation - here is 'e' v1.0 interpreter on Perl > with one line and seven exclamation marks: > > #! /usr/bin/perl -n > y/!1/1!/+s/1+/$&%9<5?$&<17?$![$!]:$!+=$&%9%2*2-1:printf$&%3?'%d':'%c',$![$!] /ge Thanks ! :-) I'll put this on the e lang website. -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Mar 26 00:19:39 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcoS-000C1L-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:19:36 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:19:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcoF-000C1F-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:19:23 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:19:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from rhea.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.178]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pco8-000C19-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:19:16 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-233-199.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.233.199]) by rhea.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189493709A for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:19:00 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@rhea.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3C9E57A9.6C61921D@dds.nl> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:48:09 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] another quine References: <3C94F28E.82F3DE92@dds.nl> <15510.10950.112798.102058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6677394705.20020324153946@frox25.dhs.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Mtv Europe wrote: > > I have a suggestion for benrg too: it would be good if source codes > > could work backwards without having to invert the various types of > > bracket. > > More shorter quine (3 bits per char) would be possible if in > language specification we replace curved brackets with squared I don't understand. Both the bracket in the program and the code to push its ASCII code are of the same length independant of what character it actually is. > Kayak answer to question about universe and everything is: > (e|i){}(e|i) Let's see if I got this right: the input is discarded into the bit bucket, and new output is taken from the bit bucket? What's the connection? And it doesn't even work, since it continues writing bits after having pushed end-of-file. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Mar 26 00:24:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcsu-000C2G-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:24:12 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:24:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcsm-000C29-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:24:04 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:23:58 +0200 (EET) Received: from rhea.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.178]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pcsf-000C23-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:23:57 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-233-199.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.233.199]) by rhea.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id A045A36B0E for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:23:55 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@rhea.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3C9FA2F6.63B8A68A@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:21:42 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? (Was: Re: Quine In e lang ?) References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc D De Villiers wrote: > Stephen Sykes, > > > If you like null programs as quines, then you will be entertained by my > > new programming language where *every* possible program is a quine. I call > > the language 'cat'... > > Yes! This seams to be the rule of quines ! > > "cat" ? Does this language exist ? Where can I get it ? Hahaha! "cat" isn't a real programming language. It's a simple Unix tool which copies input to output. But you can also see it as if the input is a program, there is no user input, and the output is the program output, and then every possible program will be a quine. As for where to get it: this is the Kayak version: "(io){}(io)", and this is (or so I have been told) the Lazy-K version: "". From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Mar 26 05:47:42 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16phvo-000Cva-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:47:32 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:47:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16phts-000CvS-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:45:33 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:45:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from dark.darkweb.com ([216.163.74.170]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16phtj-000CvM-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:45:23 +0200 Received: from localhost (benrg@localhost) by dark.darkweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22797 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:45:06 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:45:06 -0800 (PST) From: Ben Rudiak-Gould To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [Kayak] improved interpreter Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-1546081718-1582310569-1017114306=:30210" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ---1546081718-1582310569-1017114306=:30210 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've made a few important improvements to my Kayak interpreter (attached): 1. It's several times faster than before. 2. Parse errors are now tagged with the line on which they occurred. 3. The hardware stack is no longer used for procedure calls, so you will no longer get stack overflows in deeply-recursive functions. 4. It's "properly middle-recursive". The last of these is the most interesting and requires some elaboration. Ordinary tail-recursion (or head-recursion, for that matter) isn't possible in Kayak because it loses information about the number of calls that came before. However, the interpreter now does the next-best thing: it merges adjacent frames on the call stack when they are identical and attaches a repetition count. This allows for (almost-) constant-space loops in Kayak. (It can't be exactly constant because the repetition count can grow arbitrarily large.) In order to take advantage of constant-space looping, your recursive procedure must meet the following criteria: 1. It must be self-recursive. (Mutual recursion is not supported.) 2. It must call itself in the current execution direction (not the opposite). 3. It must call itself from the same point in the source code each time. 4. All local variables, except those passed to the nested invocation, must contain only zeroes at the time of the call. 5. All local temporary registers must contain the same values on each call. (Actually only the innermost temporary can fail this test; the others will always be equal to 1.) For example, the revloop()poolver function from eg\reverse.kayak meets all the criteria above, but the str()len function does not: str(s|count) { s [ s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp count str(s|count)len | count temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s ] s } (s|count)len Conditions (1), (2), and (3) are obviously satisfied. (5) is also satisfied, because the outer temporary will always contain 1 (else the recursive call will not happen at all) and, although it requires global analysis to tell this, the inner temporary always contains 0 on the first top-level call to str()len and 1 on the second. But (4) is not satisfied, because the local variable "temp" will usually contain nonzero values at the time of the recursive call. This is easily fixed by modifying the function so that it shares one "temp" stack among all nested invocations, like this: str2(s|count|temp) { s [ s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp count str2(s|count|temp)2len | count temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s temp s ] s } (s|count|temp)2len str(s|count) { str2(s|count|temp)2len } (s|count)len With this change, the memory usage of reverse.kayak drops from more than 100 times the length of the input to less than 3 times the length of the input. (2.25 times is the minimum possible even for the empty program, because of the overhead of storing the input/output stack in memory.) The same change also works for invert.kayak. It's not necessary for the arguments to the nested call to match the formal parameters. For example, weird(x|y){x[weird(y|x)weird]y}(x|y)weird satisfies all the criteria. -- Ben ---1546081718-1582310569-1017114306=:30210 Content-Type: APPLICATION/x-gzip; name="kayak.cpp.gz" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="kayak.cpp.gz" H4sICAjhnzwAA2theWFrLmNwcADNXFtz28ixfiZ/xYinVgKvppRsKoe3rWTj Tbni2C7HqTpVssICSVBCCQQQXCQrNv97+jJ3gFp5n84+rIhBT3dPT0/3Nz0D v3ol/hY+hfciCdPbOryNRJxWUZEXEfx/0n31Svyc5U9FfHtXiavp9Er8OUrF x3oXh/fjv2Z1spuIv8RlVcSbuop2ok53USGqu0j89cPbSbfb/Z843Sb1LhIL JEpvV1bLQ7StssJuiTOgisKD3bZvNoXJbVbE1Z1LV6fbKs7SMFl1u3UJskQa HqIyD7eRKKvd3FZmWz3l0eRu5ei3S+KN34Y6u21VfKCe3S68rbeV+DlMkl8K EDXvPmTxTkRFkRXBNkvLSmzvwmIgDuXtyJANxBZ+rssq3N6LpZj2QbPuJssS UYTpLjusN3EV9MXXbgdIqngr6F2cxlUcJvF/wMpLsQ+TEuR14r0IzqxX1K3j 0oKWSNopkX2A6gfTPgjtHLsdmOa6SEkwiFwtxcc/vfvL+u9/+r9XV/PuEfQy JvyAWgD3KK0P4qvYJNn2fl2CDBDxh99Pp9OROIRf1jC0bKvaL6dXvxfHue50 C4LqJIS5e4K3SJTtAzTaoE9k9FPsiyhKwKmuXX6vrN43c20dNLEYsDr5SP2K 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oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16plz9-000DTg-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:07:15 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:06:58 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16plyr-000DTa-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:06:57 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:06:56 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16plyp-000DTU-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:06:55 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2Q86ir07997 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:06:45 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2Q86fq00477 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:06:41 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:06:41 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Re: [lang] Re: [Kayak] another quine In-Reply-To: <3C9E57A9.6C61921D@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > > Kayak answer to question about universe and everything is: > > (e|i){}(e|i) > Let's see if I got this right: the input is discarded into the bit > bucket, and new output is taken from the bit bucket? What's the > connection? And it doesn't even work, since it continues writing > bits after having pushed end-of-file. Well, at least it will provide an answer for everything, if you try sufficiently many times. About the universe, I'm not so sure - but maybe it would tell the question. -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Mar 26 11:55:20 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pnfK-000DpO-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:54:54 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:54:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pne2-000DpG-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:53:34 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:53:27 +0200 (EET) Received: from wells.tecc.co.uk ([195.217.37.90]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pndu-000DpA-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:53:26 +0200 Received: from basingstoke.tecc.co.uk (basingstoke.tecc.co.uk [195.217.37.75]) by wells.tecc.co.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17476 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:53:20 GMT Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:53:20 GMT Message-Id: <200203260953.JAA17476@wells.tecc.co.uk> From: Mike Taylor To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-reply-to: <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> (ddevilliers@lando.co.za) Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? (Was: Re: Quine In e lang ?) References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@tecc.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@tecc.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:29:51 +0200 > From: "D De Villiers" > > "cat" ? Does this language exist ? Where can I get it ? You should be able to implement it in "dd" easily enough. _/|_ _______________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "It is a restful chapter in any book of [James Fenimore Cooper's] when somebody doesn't step on a dry twig and alarm all the reds and whites for two hundred yards around" -- Mark Twain. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Mar 26 14:00:46 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ppbZ-000EJX-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:59:09 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:58:58 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ppbN-000EJR-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:58:58 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list sci); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:58:56 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ppbL-000EJL-00 for sci@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:58:55 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2QBwrr29316 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:58:54 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2QBwnv23868 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:58:49 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:58:49 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: sci@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [sci] [representational power] referencing? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: sci X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Probably everybody knows that though it is tedious to do with a Turing machine the same thing which in a random-access machine is easy (say today's computer arachitectures), they have nevertheless equal representational power so that everything that can be done on one can be done on the other. Now, some time ago (when fiddling with lazy functional languges) I came up with the idea of doing arithmetic with true reals - not these feeble computer floats, which do not atually cover even rational numbers, but true infinite-precision reals. These could, for example, be represented by lazy infinite lists of bits, which are produced by approixmative clculations and where bits are yielded when the result is guaranteed to have some fixed prefix. Now it is easy enough to do this in combinatory logic or pure lambda calculus, hence also with random-access architectures which have sufficient semantics for implementing such languages. It should be possible also on Turing machines, but I'm totally lost of how the numbers should be represented. I can't even imagine, for example, how an arbitrary set of input (say the algorithm should produce a list of sums of the inputs with a probably-infinite list of inputs should be represented on a TM with a finite set of symbols. Any ideas? Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Mar 26 14:49:36 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pqOI-000ETt-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:49:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:49:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pqO0-000ETm-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:49:12 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list sci); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:49:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pqNy-000ETg-00 for sci@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:49:10 +0200 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:47236 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[tXqpUwd7RaKbdgOgOqSadZsy5GCXTUm2]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:48:59 +0100 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:48:59 +0100 (CET) From: Orjan Johansen To: sci@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [sci] Re: [representational power] referencing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: sci X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > Now, some time ago (when fiddling with lazy functional languges) I came u= p > with the idea of doing arithmetic with true reals - not these feeble > computer floats, which do not atually cover even rational numbers, but > true infinite-precision reals. These could, for example, be represented b= y > lazy infinite lists of bits, which are produced by approixmative > clculations and where bits are yielded when the result is guaranteed to > have some fixed prefix. As long as you accept that such a calculation might possibly never produce a single bit of the result. (E.g. try to add the binary numbers 0.101010101010... and 0.0101010101010...) Another representation is as shrinking intervals (e.g. say each is half the length of the previous.) This has the advantage that for nice continuous operations (addition, multiplication, division away from zero) you can actually get out any finite part of a representation of the answer in a finite time. > Now it is easy enough to do this in combinatory logic or pure lambda > calculus, hence also with random-access architectures which have > sufficient semantics for implementing such languages. It should be > possible also on Turing machines, but I'm totally lost of how the numbers > should be represented. I can't even imagine, for example, how an arbitrar= y > set of input (say the algorithm should produce a list of sums of the > inputs with a probably-infinite list of inputs > should be represented on a TM with a finite set of symbols. Any ideas? Well, normally a TM has finite input but so does lambda calculus. I assume that for what you are thinking of, the representation would have to use an infinite amount of tape. So, let's assume each i_n is represented as an infinite string of symbols, and that there are infinitely many such strings. To fit them all on a single tape, use the standard trick (similarly to how rational numbers are proved to be countable): Symbol m of i_n (both starting at position zero for simplicity) may be put in position P(m,n) =3D m + (m+n)(m+n+1)/2. Of course even with infinite input a TM may only produce finite output in a finite time. Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My Unlambda page: Latest contraption: Unlambda to Ocaml compiler. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Mar 26 15:05:14 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pqdD-000EVP-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:04:55 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:04:48 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pqd5-000EVJ-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:04:47 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list sci); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:04:42 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pqcz-000EVD-00 for sci@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:04:41 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2QD4Zr24139 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:04:39 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2QD4Sx32149 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:04:28 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:04:27 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: sci@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [sci] Re: [representational power] referencing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: sci X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Orjan Johansen wrote: > Another representation is as shrinking intervals (e.g. say each is half > the length of the previous.) This has the advantage that for nice > continuous operations (addition, multiplication, division away from zero) > you can actually get out any finite part of a representation of the answer > in a finite time. Yes, the idea did cross my mind. I guess for most purposes it is not worth the trouble, though. Other cleaner representations that came to mind include lists of trits with significance dropping geometrically at 2/3. > Well, normally a TM has finite input but so does lambda calculus. I > assume that for what you are thinking of, the representation would have to > use an infinite amount of tape. Yes, just to make the case "clear" (i.e. not requiring that the inputs themselves be obtained by a computation) > Symbol m of i_n (both starting at position zero for simplicity) may be put > in position > P(m,n) = m + (m+n)(m+n+1)/2. Oh, of course. Thank you. > Of course even with infinite input a TM may only produce finite output in > a finite time. ... or rather, in a finite number of steps. Well, that's not too bad, it's the same with respect to reductions in functional calculi :) Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Mar 26 15:13:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pqlH-000EXU-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:13:15 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:13:08 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pqko-000EXO-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:12:46 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:12:40 +0200 (EET) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pqkh-000EXI-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:12:39 +0200 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:51332 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[xixOfskRMrEHHvF24lfY7brlo7P4Lh1H]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:12:25 +0100 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:12:25 +0100 (CET) From: Orjan Johansen To: Esoteric Languages List Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] improved interpreter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote: > In order to take advantage of constant-space looping, your recursive > procedure must meet the following criteria: I noticed that in the html file you sometimes call the [ ... ] construct a loop. Did you consider making it one and then change your mind? It seems problematic to make it a loop because it allocates a new empty temporary register, and emptiness of the temporary register is static as you note. If the construct didn't allocate a new temporary register then it could instead require the temporary register to be full at both ends, and loop or exit dependent on whether it was false or true respectively. Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My Unlambda page: Latest contraption: Unlambda to Ocaml compiler. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Mar 26 19:52:34 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pv7M-000FTG-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:52:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:52:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pv5P-000FT5-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:50:19 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:50:09 +0200 (EET) Received: from [212.16.6.108] (helo=frox25.dhs.org) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pv5E-000FSz-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:50:08 +0200 Received: (qmail 55768 invoked from network); 26 Mar 2002 17:39:07 -0000 Received: from heartw.ih (10.0.17.4) by nova.ih with SMTP; 26 Mar 2002 17:39:07 -0000 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:42:28 +0300 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <110268385429.20020326204228@frox25.dhs.org> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] another quine In-reply-To: <3C9E57A9.6C61921D@dds.nl> References: <3C94F28E.82F3DE92@dds.nl> <15510.10950.112798.102058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6677394705.20020324153946@frox25.dhs.org> <3C9E57A9.6C61921D@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.dhs.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.dhs.org Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello Milo! Monday, March 25, 2002, 1:48:09 AM, Milo van Handel wrote: >> More shorter quine (3 bits per char) would be possible if in >> language specification we replace curved brackets with squared > I don't understand. Both the bracket in the program and the code to push its ASCII > code are of the same length independant of what character it actually is. Third quine uses four bits to encode thirteen characters: " |(){}[]0123" and separator. If the language was designed with '[' and ']' tokens instead of '{' and '}' (note, this syntax is still clean and monosemantical), then it would be possible to write quine with eight chars - " |()[]0" and separator - and thus in three bits - around one fourth shorter. >> (e|i){}(e|i) > Let's see if I got this right: the input is discarded into the bit bucket, and new > output is taken from the bit bucket? So it can produce any output on any input - the philosophers' stone! :) Well, it more closely resembles the story about monkeys, typewriters and Shakespeare, but look - not so many languages are able to brag of such compact code on this task. And with some low but computable probability it can be a quine as well! ---- Mtv Europe From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Mar 26 22:19:57 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pxQ7-000FqS-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:19:51 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:19:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pxPg-000FqL-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:19:24 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:19:07 +0200 (EET) Received: from dark.darkweb.com ([216.163.74.170]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pxPO-000FqF-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:19:06 +0200 Received: from localhost (benrg@localhost) by dark.darkweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12392 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:18:55 -0800 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:18:55 -0800 (PST) From: Ben Rudiak-Gould To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] another quine In-Reply-To: <110268385429.20020326204228@frox25.dhs.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Mtv Europe wrote: > Third quine uses four bits to encode thirteen characters: > " |(){}[]0123" and separator. > > If the language was designed with '[' and ']' tokens instead of '{' and '}' > (note, this syntax is still clean and monosemantical), then it would > be possible to write quine with eight chars - " |()[]0" and separator - and > thus in three bits - around one fourth shorter. Sorry, I'm not changing it. There are four semantically distinct bracketing operations in Kayak, and four sets of brackets in ASCII. It would be a crime not to make them correspond one to one. Here's an idea: instead of a fixed-width encoding, use an order-0 Huffman code. > >> (e|i){}(e|i) > > And with some low but computable probability it can be a quine as well! Hold on, let me fire up calc.lazy... yes, with a probability of 1 in 649037107316853453566312041152512, to be exact. Of course, this applies only if the interpreter uses something like /dev/random for its bits, which presently it doesn't. I should fix that. Unfortunately, the interpreter complains of nonzero values following the output. The probability that it will print the source code without complaining is 0 exactly. -- Ben From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Mar 26 22:41:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pxku-000Ftm-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:41:20 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:41:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pxkk-000Ftf-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:41:10 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:40:53 +0200 (EET) Received: from dark.darkweb.com ([216.163.74.170]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pxkS-000FtZ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:40:52 +0200 Received: from localhost (benrg@localhost) by dark.darkweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13064 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:40:50 -0800 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:40:50 -0800 (PST) From: Ben Rudiak-Gould To: Esoteric Languages List Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] improved interpreter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Orjan Johansen wrote: > I noticed that in the html file you sometimes call the [ ... ] construct a > loop. Did you consider making it one and then change your mind? Oops. Yes, at one time the stacks and temporary registers were going to hold integers instead of bits, and [ ... ] was going to execute the code inside N times, where N was the value in the temporary register. (Naturally, if N was negative, it would run the code backwards.) It still works this way, if you think of 0 and 1 bits as the integers 0 and 1. I wrote the documentation (and everything else) in a hurry and I'm sure there are still mistakes lurking in there. Let me know if you notice any others. (I've already replaced mentions of "function" with "procedure" and "list" with "stack".) > If the construct didn't allocate a new temporary register then it > could instead require the temporary register to be full at both ends, > and loop or exit dependent on whether it was false or true > respectively. True. This possibility didn't occur to me when I was designing the language. In any case, I think the present semantics works well in practice. -- Ben From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Mar 26 22:55:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pxxz-000Fxn-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:54:51 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:54:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pxxc-000Fxe-00; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:54:28 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:54:21 +0200 (EET) Received: from dark.darkweb.com ([216.163.74.170]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16pxxU-000FxY-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:54:20 +0200 Received: from localhost (benrg@localhost) by dark.darkweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13433 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:54:18 -0800 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:54:18 -0800 (PST) From: Ben Rudiak-Gould To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] another quine In-Reply-To: <6677394705.20020324153946@frox25.dhs.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Mtv Europe wrote: > I also have Kayak interpreter on Perl. It works good on small programs, > but fails on big quines (looks like 40000 recursive calls for Perl are > too much). Is somebody interested? If it's anywhere near as neat as that one-line 'e' interpreter you posted the other day, then I'm interested. :-) -- Ben From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Mar 27 19:42:39 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qHRI-000JEA-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:42:24 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:42:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qHOz-000JDa-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:40:02 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:39:54 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qHOp-000JDN-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:39:52 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p130.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.130]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2RHdYK07478 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:39:42 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <005101c1d5b5$960fcfa0$8281ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> <3C9FA2F6.63B8A68A@dds.nl> Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? (Was: Re: Quine In e lang ?) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:47:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Milo van Handel, > Hahaha! "cat" isn't a real programming language. It's a simple Unix tool > which copies input to output. But you can also see it as if the input is a > program, there is no user input, and the output is the program output, and then > every possible program will be a quine. As for where to get it: this is the > Kayak version: "(io){}(io)", and this is (or so I have been told) the Lazy-K > version: "". Yeh, Hahaha! Dear me always think that something is a programming langauge ! :) Is it only a Unix tool or is it also avialable with Linux ? Wow! The smallest simples Kayak program I've seen - Thanks! :) -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Mar 27 19:42:39 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qHRI-000JE8-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:42:24 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:42:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qHOz-000JDb-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:40:02 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:39:54 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qHOp-000JDO-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:39:52 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p130.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.130]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2RHdhK07513 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:39:43 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <005201c1d5b5$96d93a20$8281ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> <200203260953.JAA17476@wells.tecc.co.uk> Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? (Was: Re: Quine In e lang ?) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:53:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Mike Taylor, > > "cat" ? Does this language exist ? Where can I get it ? > You should be able to implement it in "dd" easily enough. "dd" ? I'm lost !! Please HELP !! :) -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Mar 27 19:42:39 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qHRM-000JE9-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:42:28 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:42:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qHP8-000JDm-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:40:10 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:40:03 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qHOu-000JDP-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:39:56 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p130.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.130]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2RHdkK07527 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:39:46 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <005401c1d5b5$98c79ca0$8281ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: "EsoLang Lang" Subject: [lang] [ANN] e v1.5 For Palm Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:46:49 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1D595.D8725720" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1D595.D8725720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello! The file-attachment's the release of e lang version 1.5 only for the PalmOS platform. The Java version will be avialable shortly! Other implementations (like Perl, Python etc) also Welcome ! See README.TXT Requirements: PalmOS 3.5 and later SmallBASIC @ Palm 0.8.0 (http://smallbasic.sourceforge.net) What's New ? ------------ - Operate on a one-dimensional array of unlimited size (not limited to 10 elements anymore!) - Reading Input (character/number) History ------- 27 Mar. 2002 - Only PalmOS version Release! - Unlimited one-dimentation array size - Read input (character/number) - Change CSP to CDP 11 Feb. 2002 - First Release v1.0 - Finnish e website (link above) - Only "HelloWorld.e" example Visit http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ for more information. -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ 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soMz8otKkktLgPqJ1eubn5KZlpmaYmtpYOJo6uRs7mru5OxsYGBoZsDLBQBQSwECFAAUAAIACAB8 Znss1YxpnJkEAABMCQAACQAAAAAAAAABACAAtoEAAAAAZWxhbmcucGRiUEsBAhQAFAACAAgA5GJ7 LOxcI+IhBwAA+g8AAAoAAAAAAAAAAQAgALaBwAQAAFJlYWRtZS50eHRQSwECFAAUAAIACABxZnss M8WIIBkEAAAvCQAACQAAAAAAAAABACAAtoEJDAAAZWxhbmcuYmFzUEsBAhQAFAACAAgA71mEKgDH 8u9qAAAAkAAAAA4AAAAAAAAAAQAgALaBSRAAAFNtYWxsQkFTSUMudXJsUEsFBgAAAAAEAAQA4gAA AN8QAAAAAA== ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1D595.D8725720-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Mar 27 21:40:39 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qJHR-000JVe-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:40:21 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:40:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qJFk-000JVL-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:38:36 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:38:29 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com ([192.108.102.143]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qJFd-000JVF-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:38:29 +0200 Received: from amir amirlb@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.219.227.157] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.88 $ on Novell NetWare; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:38:16 -0700 Message-ID: <038701c1d5c6$9c89c500$3900a8c0@amir> From: To: References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> <3C9FA2F6.63B8A68A@dds.nl> <005101c1d5b5$960fcfa0$8281ef9b@lennie> Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:35:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > :) Is it only a Unix tool or is it also avialable with Linux ? Unix is a general name for many operating system, and Linux is one of them. Therefore, any standard Unix tool is distributed with Linux. -- Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! lightstep (Amir Livne) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Mar 27 23:33:22 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qL2X-000K5Z-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:33:05 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:32:58 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qL26-000K5S-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:32:38 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:32:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from mailout05.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.82]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qL1y-000K5M-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:32:30 +0200 Received: from fwd04.sul.t-online.de by mailout05.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 16qKj7-0004H5-05; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:13:01 +0100 Received: from esoteric.holy-unicorn (340009195196-0001@[217.230.187.212]) by fwd04.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 16qKis-0jzqDYC; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:12:46 +0100 Received: from esoteric.holy-unicorn (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by esoteric.holy-unicorn (8.12.1/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2RLGtgw091490 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:16:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from markus@esoteric.holy-unicorn) Received: (from markus@localhost) by esoteric.holy-unicorn (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g2RLGtJr091489 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:16:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:16:55 +0100 From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (Markus Kliegl) To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? Message-ID: <20020327221655.A91409@esoteric> References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> <3C9FA2F6.63B8A68A@dds.nl> <005101c1d5b5$960fcfa0$8281ef9b@lennie> <038701c1d5c6$9c89c500$3900a8c0@amir> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <038701c1d5c6$9c89c500$3900a8c0@amir> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i X-Sender: 340009195196-0001@t-dialin.net X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: markus.kliegl@t-online.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: markus.kliegl@t-online.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc * amirlb@myrealbox.com [020327 21:04]: > > :) Is it only a Unix tool or is it also avialable with Linux ? > > Unix is a general name for many operating system, and Linux is one of them. > Therefore, any standard Unix tool is distributed with Linux. > Well, more specifically, UNIX (TM) is a registered trademark of the OpenGroup, who are the publishers of the Single UNIX Specification (version 3 is online at http://www.unix-systems.org/version3/), which has been merged with POSIX, the Portable Operating System Interface, which are the ISO/IEEE 1003.x standards, which define such things as the 'cat' utility (in 1003.2 or the XCU section of the Single UNIX Specification). Note that the GNU utilities often don't comply with POSIX, but add their own weird, twisted, and hardly useful features instead; sometimes they add very useful features and it's a pity they aren't in POSIX - in any case portability between POSIX and GNU utilities is more often problematic from GNU to POSIX than the other way around. I believe susv3 is in a stage of final review before being released as ISO/IEEE 1003.x-2001. I suppose no one cares or uses the terms UNIX and the like at that level, though :-) Informally, UNIX is sort of a collective term to mean any of the operating systems derived from the AT&T UNIX or the Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD), which was originally also derived from the AT&T sources (Unix version 6). Usually it also includes Linux, though most of the time I've seen it written as Unix/Linux--maybe because Linux has become a sort of marketing buzzword. Studying the history and origins of all the various "flavors" of UNIX can be quite interesting; I can provide links and pointers if anyone's interested :-) There are so many interesting things, I wonder why the hell I had to learn about the French Revolution and Prussian kings. *sigh* Markus From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Mar 27 23:59:38 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qLRr-000KA8-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:59:16 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:59:09 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qLQB-000KA1-00; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:57:31 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:57:24 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com ([192.108.102.143]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qLQ4-000K9v-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:57:24 +0200 Received: from amir amirlb@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.219.227.157] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.88 $ on Novell NetWare; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:57:10 -0700 Message-ID: <03b501c1d5da$06f23d10$3900a8c0@amir> From: To: Subject: [lang] beta-Juliet? Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:54:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Where can I find a beta-Juliet interpreter (I don't really care about Portia)? the link on cat's eye is broken, and Google can't find this language anywhere else. I'm thinking about creating a similar language, something like a generalized neural network, but I don't know how to handle event invocations correctly. -- Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! lightstep (Amir Livne) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 28 00:13:49 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qLfq-000KCQ-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:13:42 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:13:35 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qLfb-000KCJ-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:13:27 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:13:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qLfQ-000KCD-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:13:16 +0200 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:37271 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[MO/1LxCtbE1U0xm6sJssV6SM9LBSybjh]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:12:58 +0100 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:12:58 +0100 (CET) From: Orjan Johansen To: Esoteric Languages List Subject: [lang] Re: beta-Juliet? In-Reply-To: <03b501c1d5da$06f23d10$3900a8c0@amir> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 amirlb@myrealbox.com wrote: > Where can I find a beta-Juliet interpreter (I don't really care about > Portia)? the link on cat's eye is broken, and Google can't find this > language anywhere else. As far as I have seen, the bug on catseye affects only perl files - I guess the web server thinks they are CGI scripts and tries to execute them. In any case, you should be able to download the whole subtree. Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My Unlambda page: Latest contraption: Unlambda to Ocaml compiler. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 28 00:28:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qLuV-000KGq-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:28:51 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:28:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qLu9-000KGj-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:28:29 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:28:22 +0200 (EET) Received: from imailg1.svr.pol.co.uk ([195.92.195.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qLu1-000KGd-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:28:21 +0200 Received: from [195.92.198.123] (helo=mail17.svr.pol.co.uk) by imailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 16qLtz-0004l6-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:28:19 +0000 Received: from modem-114.dagorlad.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.151.114] helo=localhost.localdomain) by mail17.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 16qLtz-0003Kr-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:28:19 +0000 Received: (from mike@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA20997; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:57:40 GMT Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:57:40 GMT Message-Id: <200203271957.TAA20997@localhost.localdomain> X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: mike set sender to mike@miketaylor.org.uk using -f From: Mike Taylor To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-reply-to: <005201c1d5b5$96d93a20$8281ef9b@lennie> (ddevilliers@lando.co.za) Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? (Was: Re: Quine In e lang ?) References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> <200203260953.JAA17476@wells.tecc.co.uk> <005201c1d5b5$96d93a20$8281ef9b@lennie> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@miketaylor.org.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@miketaylor.org.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:53:20 +0200 > From: "D De Villiers" > > > > "cat" ? Does this language exist ? Where can I get it ? > > You should be able to implement it in "dd" easily enough. > > "dd" ? I'm lost !! Please HELP !! :) Sorry, this was a cruel joke. I shouldn't have done it. "dd" is another Unix utility that copies input unchanged to output (modulo some junk on the standard error stream). So "implementing" cat in dd would be something like: $ alias cat=dd I'll go and stand in a corner now. _/|_ _______________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "All that I know most surely about morality and obligations, I owe to football" -- Albert Camus. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 28 00:36:47 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qM1s-000KIa-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:36:28 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:36:22 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qM19-000KIM-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:35:43 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:35:36 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com ([192.108.102.143]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qM11-000KIG-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:35:36 +0200 Received: from amir amirlb@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.219.227.157] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.88 $ on Novell NetWare; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:35:27 -0700 Message-ID: <03c901c1d5df$5df2a190$3900a8c0@amir> From: To: References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> <200203260953.JAA17476@wells.tecc.co.uk> <005201c1d5b5$96d93a20$8281ef9b@lennie> <200203271957.TAA20997@localhost.localdomain> Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:32:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > some junk on the standard error stream). So "implementing" cat in dd > would be something like: > > $ alias cat=dd Not really... Try cat --version, and you'll see a big difference. -- Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! lightstep (Amir Livne) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 28 11:50:35 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qWXU-000MNV-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:49:48 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:49:41 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qWXM-000MNO-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:49:40 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:49:38 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qWXJ-000MNI-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:49:37 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2S9nZr29987 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:49:36 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2S9nWY02693 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:49:32 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:49:32 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Re: [lang] [Unix] cat lang ? (I sniff a possibility for flame war) In-Reply-To: <20020327221655.A91409@esoteric> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, Markus Kliegl wrote: > > Unix is a general name for many operating system, and Linux is one of them. > > Therefore, any standard Unix tool is distributed with Linux. > Well, more specifically, UNIX (TM) is a registered trademark of the Yes. But Unix as a word is mostly used to refer to the family of operating systems with a family resemblance. Into these, Linux fits perfectly. I think most of the ambiguity of usage is handled by censoring the 'i' when they mean the UN*X(TM) thing. > has been merged with POSIX, the Portable Operating System Interface, Yes. The basic reason why people still rather speak of unix than posix is that there is a lot more similarity between different unices than there is between different POSIX systems (or systems that claim to be POSIX-compliant). Moreover, as POSIX is a standard, it is relatively easy to conform to it in some aspects and neglect others. You more often hear talk of POSIX threads, POSIX system calls, etc than talk of POSIX utilities... > which are the ISO/IEEE 1003.x standards, which define such things as > the 'cat' utility (in 1003.2 or the XCU section of the Single UNIX > Specification). Note that the GNU utilities often don't comply with > POSIX, but add their own weird, twisted, and hardly useful features Well, I happen to like writing du instead of du -k, and tar xzf ... instead of gunzip -c ... tar xf - Note that non-compliance with POSIX is not about added features, but about lacking features or features with changed semantics. As far as I know, few GNU utilities are truly non-compliant in this sense. Where they are, the decision has usually been conscious, as with the du thing. Now we can enter the discussion about bloat... :) > utilities is more often problematic from GNU to POSIX than the other > way around. True. I wonder how we ended up with most hackers getting their unix experience from Linux, which as an environment is very nice and pretty compared to most unices. There are some cases which are very problematic, as with "make" (which it is almost impossible to write intelligent portable Makefiles for), "ps", "sh" and so on... > of the time I've seen it written as Unix/Linux--maybe because Linux > has become a sort of marketing buzzword. Studying the history As Unix once was - and now NT is. :) I wonder who is going to be the one to use oodles and oodles of money to build the next OS brand... Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 28 11:52:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qWZY-000MOQ-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:51:56 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:51:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qWZQ-000MOK-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:51:48 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:51:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qWZO-000MOE-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:51:46 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2S9pjr30355 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:51:45 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2S9pf902785 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:51:41 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:51:41 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Re: [lang] Re: cat lang ? In-Reply-To: <03c901c1d5df$5df2a190$3900a8c0@amir> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 amirlb@myrealbox.com wrote: > > some junk on the standard error stream). So "implementing" cat in dd > > would be something like: > > $ alias cat=dd > Not really... > Try cat --version, and you'll see a big difference. I see you use non-standard extensions to the "cat" language. Might it be that you've begun your cat programming with GNU cat? -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 28 19:32:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qdjv-000NPN-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:31:08 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:31:01 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qdhn-000NPC-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:28:55 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:28:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from web10902.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.131.38]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qdhf-000NP6-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:28:47 +0200 Message-ID: <20020328172836.79213.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.31.190.4] by web10902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:28:36 PST Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:28:36 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Connors Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <20020327221655.A91409@esoteric> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: connorbd@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: connorbd@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --- Markus Kliegl wrote: > * amirlb@myrealbox.com > [020327 21:04]: > > > :) Is it only a Unix tool or is it also > avialable with Linux ? > > > > Unix is a general name for many operating system, > and Linux is one of them. > > Therefore, any standard Unix tool is distributed > with Linux. > > > > Well, more specifically, UNIX (TM) is a registered > trademark of the > OpenGroup, who are the publishers of the Single UNIX > Specification > (version 3 is online at > http://www.unix-systems.org/version3/), which > has been merged with POSIX, the Portable Operating > System Interface, > which are the ISO/IEEE 1003.x standards, which > define such things as > the 'cat' utility (in 1003.2 or the XCU section of > the Single UNIX > Specification). Note that the GNU utilities often > don't comply with > POSIX, but add their own weird, twisted, and hardly > useful features > instead; sometimes they add very useful features and > it's a pity they > aren't in POSIX - in any case portability between > POSIX and GNU > utilities is more often problematic from GNU to > POSIX than the other > way around. GNU tools can be pretty skanky. Look at less(1) vs. regular old more(1); less has some useful features but it's hideously overengineered. I don't want a program that has at least four pages in Linux in a Nutshell just to scroll through a text file. gcc has traditionally been the worst offender, IMHO; it rather bothers me that Linux is heavily dependent on GNU C language extensions, for example. > I believe susv3 is in a stage of final review before > being released as ISO/IEEE 1003.x-2001. I suppose no > one cares or uses > the terms UNIX and the like at that level, though > :-) > > Informally, UNIX is sort of a collective term to > mean any of the > operating systems derived from the AT&T UNIX or the > Berkeley Software > Distribution (BSD), which was originally also > derived from the AT&T > sources (Unix version 6). Usually it also includes > Linux, though most > of the time I've seen it written as > Unix/Linux--maybe because Linux > has become a sort of marketing buzzword. Studying I read an interview with Dennis Ritchie once where he said he felt Linux was part of the family. POSIX/SUSv3 aside, that's good enough for me :-) > the history > and origins of all the various "flavors" of UNIX can > be quite > interesting; I can provide links and pointers if > anyone's interested :-) That ought to be fun. Let me throw in my BSD page to help get you started: http://www.geocities.com/connorbd/bsd.html > There are so many interesting things, I wonder why > the hell I had to > learn about the French Revolution and Prussian > kings. *sigh* Yeah, huh? /Brian ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 28 19:48:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qe0q-000NTd-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:48:36 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:48:29 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qe0N-000NTW-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:48:07 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:48:00 +0200 (EET) Received: from rama.poly.edu ([128.238.10.212]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qe0F-000NTQ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:47:59 +0200 Received: (qmail 8340 invoked by uid 20150); 28 Mar 2002 17:47:08 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:47:08 -0500 (EST) From: John Colagioia X-Sender: jcolag@rama To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? In-Reply-To: <20020328172836.79213.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Brian Connors wrote: > --- Markus Kliegl wrote: [...] > GNU tools can be pretty skanky. Look at less(1) vs. > regular old more(1); less has some useful features but > it's hideously overengineered. I don't want a program > that has at least four pages in Linux in a Nutshell > just to scroll through a text file. And it doesn't even do *freaky* stuff like displaying the file horizontally, rather than vertically. > gcc has traditionally been the worst offender, IMHO; > it rather bothers me that Linux is heavily dependent > on GNU C language extensions, for example. On the bright side, though, gcc is written in such a hackish manner, that its source code is beautifully suited for testing other C compilers. I'm not perfectly sure about this, but I think just about every foul variation of C syntax and semantics is used somewhere in the compiler. And not as an example. [...] > > There are so many interesting things, I wonder why > > the hell I had to > > learn about the French Revolution and Prussian > > kings. *sigh* > Yeah, huh? Oddly, maybe I'm getting tired in my "old age," but I'm starting to find the Prussian stuff sort of interesting... Oh, and to Panu, the term "UN*X" has historically been used to explicitly avoid trademark infringement. The term "UNIX" was, for heaven knows how long, a registered trademark of AT&T. Periodically, the Bell lawyers would give consideration to protecting their property and crushing all those who used the name without consent. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 28 19:59:44 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qeBa-000NVB-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:59:42 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:59:35 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qeBI-000NV4-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:59:24 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:59:18 +0200 (EET) Received: from wells.tecc.co.uk ([195.217.37.90]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qeBB-000NUy-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:59:17 +0200 Received: from basingstoke.tecc.co.uk (basingstoke.tecc.co.uk [195.217.37.75]) by wells.tecc.co.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18278 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 17:59:12 GMT Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 17:59:12 GMT Message-Id: <200203281759.RAA18278@wells.tecc.co.uk> From: Mike Taylor To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-reply-to: <20020328172836.79213.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Brian Connors on Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:28:36 -0800 (PST)) Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? References: <20020328172836.79213.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@tecc.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@tecc.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:28:36 -0800 (PST) > From: Brian Connors > > GNU tools can be pretty skanky. Look at less(1) vs. > regular old more(1); less has some useful features but > it's hideously overengineered. I don't want a program > that has at least four pages in Linux in a Nutshell > just to scroll through a text file. Indeed. I knew something had gone badly wrong with the world when I found that, in order to get "date" to remind me what the format was for _setting_ the date, I had to pipe its usage message through a pager. No, I'm not kidding. GNU date's usage message is 62 lines long. That's more than two and a half screen for us old-timers brought up on VT100s. Whatever next? ATMs with "Skip Flash Intro" buttons? :-) _/|_ _______________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "The same ... Only more violent!" -- Monty Python. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 28 23:43:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qhff-000NvV-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:43:00 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:42:53 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qhez-000NvL-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:42:17 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:42:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from dark.darkweb.com ([216.163.74.170]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qher-000NvF-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:42:10 +0200 Received: from localhost (benrg@localhost) by dark.darkweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13165 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:41:53 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:41:53 -0800 (PST) From: Ben Rudiak-Gould To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? In-Reply-To: <200203281759.RAA18278@wells.tecc.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Mike Taylor wrote: > Whatever next? ATMs with "Skip Flash Intro" buttons? :-) You think you're joking, but you're not: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/05/03/MN91179.DTL -- Ben From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Mar 28 23:51:55 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qhoH-000NzC-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:51:53 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:51:46 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qho4-000Nz5-00; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:51:40 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:51:33 +0200 (EET) Received: from [212.16.6.108] (helo=frox25.dhs.org) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qhnw-000Nyz-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:51:32 +0200 Received: (qmail 90417 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2002 21:39:43 -0000 Received: from heartw.ih (10.0.17.4) by nova.ih with SMTP; 28 Mar 2002 21:39:43 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:43:51 +0300 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <154184785463.20020329004351@frox25.dhs.org> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] [Kayak] K and S combinators calculus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------111092051B6E0A28" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.dhs.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.dhs.org Precedence: bulk X-list: misc ------------111092051B6E0A28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All! Don't worry, no obfuscated code this time. K and S combinators calculus is ready to play. It runs famous John Tromp's Universal Combinator (uc-tromp.ks)! ---- Mtv Europe ------------111092051B6E0A28 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="uc-tromp.ks" Content-Transfer-Encoding: x-uue Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="uc-tromp.ks" begin 644 uc-tromp.ks M8&!@8&!34TM@8%-@2V!@4U-@4V!@4U-+2V!@4V!@4V!+4V!@4V!+2V!@4V!+ M8%-@2V!@4V!+8%-@8%-+2TM@8%-@2V!38&!38$M38&!38$M@8%-@2V!38&!3 M2TM+8&!38$M@4V!@4TM+8&!38$M+8&!34V!+8&!38&!38&!32TM@2U-@2TM@ M8%-@2V!38$M+8&!38$M@8%-38&!38&!38$M38&!38$M+4V!+4TM@2TM@8%-+ !2P`` ` end ------------111092051B6E0A28 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="ks.kayak" Content-Transfer-Encoding: x-uue Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ks.kayak" begin 644 ks.kayak M/`I+(&%N9"!3(&-O;6YI;F%T;W)S(&-A;&-U;'5S(&EM<&QE;65N=&5D(&EN M($MA>6%K"F)Y($UT=B!%=7)O<&4@*&AT='`Z+R]W=W#(U+F1H0I"96X@4G5D:6%K+4=O=6QD(#QH='1P.B\O=W=W+FUA=&@N8F5R M:V5L97DN961U+WYB96YR9R\^"@I+4R!E>'!R97-S:6]N(&EN($).1CH*"65X M<'(@/2`G2R<@?"`G4R<@?"`G8"<@97AP'!R"BAN;W1A=&EO;B!C;W)R M97-P;VYD:6YG('1O($1A=FED($UA9&]R92=S(%5N;&%M8F1A(&QA;F=U86=E M"FAT='`Z+R]W=W'D@/2!X"@E@8&!3 M>'EZ(#T@8&!X>F!Y>@H*2U,@:6YT97)N86P@'!R M"@D);6]V92AF'!R"@D);6]V92AT;7`@?'1O("EE>'!R"@E= M('P@6PH)"3P@:70GPH)9G)O;2!;"@D)/"!I="=S(&`@/@H)"6UO=F4H9G)O;7QT;7`@ M*65X<'(*"0EC;W!Y*&9R;VU\=&\@("EE>'!R"@D);6]V92AT;7`@?&9R;VTI M97AP<@H)"6-O<'DH9G)O;7QT;R`@*65X<'(*"0DP?'1O"@E=('P@6PH)"3P@ M:70G'!R(%L*"0D\(&ET M)W,@8"`H87-C:6D@,#$Q,#`P,#`I(#X*"0EM;W9E*&5X<')\=&UP*65X<'(* M"0EI;G0@*&5X<')\;W5T*71X90H)"6EN="`H=&UP('QO=70I='AE"@D),"!O M=70@,'QO=70@,'QO=70@,"!O=70@,"!O=70@,"!O=70@,"!O=70*"5T@?"!; M"@D)/"!I="=S($L@*&%S8VEI(#`Q,#`Q,#$Q*2!O'!R(%L*"0EE>'!R(%L*"0D)97AP'!R('P@6R!E>'!R('P@6PH)"0D)"3P@,3$Q,#`@/3T@8&!@4R`^"@D) M"0D),'QS"@D)"0E=('P@97AP'!R?#`@97AP7H@/3X@,3%X>C%Y>B`^"@D)97AP'!R?#`@97AP2EE>'!R"@D)8V]P>2AE>'!R?'HI97AP<@H)"6UO=F4H>7QE>'!R M*65X<'(*"0DP?&5X<'(*"0EM;W9E*'I\97AP'!R"@D);6]V92AX?&5X M<'(I97AP<@H)"3!\97AP'!R M?&5N='QO=70I>PH)8V]P>2AE>'!R?'1M<"EE>'!R"@ER961U8V4H97AP'!R"GTH;W5T?&5N="D* ` end ------------111092051B6E0A28-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 29 00:16:22 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qiBs-000O1e-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:16:16 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:16:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qiBW-000O1X-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:15:54 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:15:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qiBO-000O1R-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:15:46 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-239-136.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.239.136]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A6C8A32AD for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:14:00 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CA38BCA.E70A536@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:31:54 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> <3C9FA2F6.63B8A68A@dds.nl> <005101c1d5b5$960fcfa0$8281ef9b@lennie> <038701c1d5c6$9c89c500$3900a8c0@amir> <20020327221655.A91409@esoteric> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Markus Kliegl wrote: > Usually it also includes Linux, though most > of the time I've seen it written as Unix/Linux--maybe because Linux > has become a sort of marketing buzzword. Linux looks like Unix from the outside, however it is not based on the Unix sourcecode. Therefore, it is not officially a Unix, so it needs to be named seperately. Of course, that leaves one wondering what to do with Minix, but I care so few people use it that nobody cares :) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 29 00:39:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qiXx-000O6a-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:39:05 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:38:59 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qiXm-000O6U-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:38:54 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:38:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com ([192.108.102.143]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qiXe-000O6O-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:38:47 +0200 Received: from amir amirlb@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.219.225.37] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.88 $ on Novell NetWare; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:38:37 -0700 Message-ID: <043a01c1d6a8$fa9cbbb0$3900a8c0@amir> From: To: References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> <3C9FA2F6.63B8A68A@dds.nl> <005101c1d5b5$960fcfa0$8281ef9b@lennie> <038701c1d5c6$9c89c500$3900a8c0@amir> <20020327221655.A91409@esoteric> <3CA38BCA.E70A536@dds.nl> Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:36:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > > Usually it also includes Linux, though most > > of the time I've seen it written as Unix/Linux--maybe because Linux > > has become a sort of marketing buzzword. > > Linux looks like Unix from the outside, however it is not based on > the Unix sourcecode. Therefore, it is not officially a Unix, so it > needs to be named seperately. Of course, that leaves one wondering > what to do with Minix, but I care so few people use it that nobody > cares :) Ummm... There isn't one unix source code. Every Unix has different source code (otherwise they'd be the same). In fact, many Unices' source code is unavaliable, so you can't base anything on their code. Linux is not officially a Unix because nobody paid the fees for whatever organization to take a look at Linux at say that it's Unix. -- Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! lightstep (Amir Livne) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 29 01:39:23 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qjT6-000OEu-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:38:08 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:38:02 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qjPd-000OEh-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:34:33 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:34:26 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qjPV-000OEY-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:34:25 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p71.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.71]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2SNY1K20689 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:34:02 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <007301c1d6b0$4641f380$4781ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: "EsoLang Lang" Subject: [lang] Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:48:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello! What's the purpose of "+" operation in HQ9+ ? To quate: "Increments the accumulator" - What's the "accumulator" ? Please provide an example. -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 29 01:53:41 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qji0-000OJS-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:53:32 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:53:26 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qjhm-000OJJ-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:53:18 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:53:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from dark.darkweb.com ([216.163.74.170]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qjhe-000OJC-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:53:10 +0200 Received: from localhost (benrg@localhost) by dark.darkweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17182 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:52:55 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:52:55 -0800 (PST) From: Ben Rudiak-Gould To: EsoLang Lang Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? In-Reply-To: <007301c1d6b0$4641f380$4781ef9b@lennie> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, D De Villiers wrote: > Hello! > > What's the purpose of "+" operation in HQ9+ ? To quate: "Increments the > accumulator" - What's the "accumulator" ? Please provide an example. The accumulator has no independent existence. The "+" operation is a joke, just like the rest of the language. Here's an example: +H This increments the accumulator and then prints "Hello, world!". My interpretation of the spec is that this is operationally indistinguishable from simply printing "Hello, world!", so it's safe to implement + as a no-op (except for purposes of the Q instruction). -- Ben From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 29 08:48:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qqAk-000PIh-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:47:38 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:47:31 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qqAc-000PIb-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:47:30 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:47:29 +0200 (EET) Received: from web12901.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.174.68]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qqAZ-000PIV-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:47:27 +0200 Message-ID: <20020329064717.11714.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.78.145.92] by web12901.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:47:17 PST Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:47:17 -0800 (PST) From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [chat] Re: [lang] [Unix] cat lang ? (I sniff a possibility for flame war) To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: order_of_may@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: order_of_may@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --- Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > Yes. But Unix as a word is mostly used to refer to the family of operating > systems with a family resemblance. Into these, Linux fits perfectly. I > think most of the ambiguity of usage is handled by censoring the 'i' when > they mean the UN*X(TM) thing. *N?X :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 29 10:45:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qrze-000PVG-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:44:18 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:44:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qry0-000PV8-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:42:36 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:42:29 +0200 (EET) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qrxs-000PV2-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:42:28 +0200 Received: from there (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g2T8gBs00429 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:42:16 -0700 Message-Id: <200203290842.g2T8gBs00429@ns3.safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:39:23 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <20020328172836.79213.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> <200203281759.RAA18278@wells.tecc.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <200203281759.RAA18278@wells.tecc.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thursday 28 March 2002 10:59 am, you wrote: > No, I'm not kidding. GNU date's usage message is 62 lines long. > That's more than two and a half screen for us old-timers brought up on > VT100s. I can understand now the push in some circles to port the FreeBSD userland over to Linux: my `date` usage statement is two lines, and includes the date setting format. :-) It's all a matter of easily-manageable dates! -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 29 10:46:50 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qs23-000PY0-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:46:47 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:46:40 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qs1u-000PXu-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:46:38 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:46:31 +0200 (EET) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qs1n-000PXo-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:46:31 +0200 Received: from there (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g2T8kTs00650 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:46:29 -0700 Message-Id: <200203290846.g2T8kTs00650@ns3.safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:43:57 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <007301c1d6b0$4641f380$4781ef9b@lennie> In-Reply-To: <007301c1d6b0$4641f380$4781ef9b@lennie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thursday 28 March 2002 02:48 am, you wrote: > What's the purpose of "+" operation in HQ9+ ? To quate: "Increments the > accumulator" - What's the "accumulator" ? Please provide an example. An accumulator is a register used in crippled machine architectures (*grin*) to do math. As the name implies, the most rudimentary operation performed is accumulation, or addition (accumulating values one after another into a total). This allows HQ9+ to perform math. -Cliff Biffle From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 29 13:31:52 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16quaM-000PuN-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:30:22 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:30:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16quYa-000PuC-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:28:32 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:28:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from dark.darkweb.com ([216.163.74.170]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16quYS-000Pu6-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:28:24 +0200 Received: from localhost (benrg@localhost) by dark.darkweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA30457 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 03:28:18 -0800 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 03:28:18 -0800 (PST) From: Ben Rudiak-Gould To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] K and S combinators calculus In-Reply-To: <154184785463.20020329004351@frox25.dhs.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This is fabulous work. I thought a combinator engine in Kayak would remain one of those theoretically-possible-but-forever-unachievable goals, like Unlambda in Brainfuck. I notice, though, that it only reduces to head normal form -- e.g. ```KSK``KSK reduces to `S``KSK rather than `SS. This is certainly safer, but it doesn't allow for the satisfaction of actually plugging a program description into the universal combinator and getting the program back. I modified reduce()ecnahne to scan all the way to the end of the expression, and now when I run it on ``````SSK``S`K``SS`S``SSKK``S``S`KS``S`KK``S`K`S`K``S`K`S``SKKK``S`K`S``S `KS``S`K``S`K`S``SKKK``S`K`S``SKK``S`KK``SS`K``S``S``SKK`KS`KK``S`K`S`KK` `S`K``SS``S``S`KS``S`KKS`KSK`KK``SKK``S``S``SKK`KK`K``S``S``SKK`K`SK`KS (the universal combinator applied to a description of the program "K" with input "S"), ks.kayak returns after a mere 84 seconds of calculation with the normal form "`KS". On a peripherally related note, John Tromp, Chris Barker and I have been working on trimming the size of the universal combinator still further. We have it down to 41 bits now, thanks to a clever idea of Chris's, and the language in which it's written is very pretty indeed. I'll post a description of it here soon, once I've confirmed with them that it actually works. :-) -- Ben From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 29 13:55:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16quyA-000Pzj-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:54:58 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:54:52 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16quxy-000Pzd-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:54:46 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:54:40 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16quxr-000PzX-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:54:39 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2TBscr30321 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:54:38 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2TBsYR17959 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:54:34 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:54:34 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [quines] quine classes In-Reply-To: <025d01c1d3e3$45262810$3900a8c0@amir> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 amirlb@myrealbox.com wrote: > > It can then be said that "true quines" use some representation for the > > data which is not the same as the representation of the program. If we > I believe that even "regular" quines in mainstream imperative languages (C, > Pascal, etc) there is a difference between the data and the code. I don't > mean the quoting (which is language-specific), but the order of them in the > source code: the data has to appear before the code. this way, everything These "regular" quines I do consider "true" quines. And they certainly do have a big difference between code and data; for example, whereas in LISP you represent both code and data as lists, in most imperative languages there is no runtime representation for code: code is not first-class. Granted quoting is language-specific, but that some kind of quoting is needed is quite universal in the imiperative languages. By the way, for assembler code is first-class: you can write assembler-writing programs in assembler. This would make it possible to make an eval-type quine by making a program that, given a pointer to itself in some register, can re-form itself and the calling code. I don't think the order is much constrained: for example, you can write a quine's main working logic in a function, and then give the data to the function as an argument, so you can have first code and then data. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 29 14:20:18 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qvMd-00005U-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:20:15 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:20:08 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qvMR-00005I-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:20:03 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:19:56 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16qvMJ-00005C-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:19:55 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p93.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.93]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2TCJjT16791 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:19:46 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <008401c1d71b$402463a0$5d81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:07:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Ben Rudiak-Gould, > The accumulator has no independent existence. The "+" operation is a joke, > just like the rest of the language. > > Here's an example: > > +H > > This increments the accumulator and then prints "Hello, world!". My > interpretation of the spec is that this is operationally indistinguishable > from simply printing "Hello, world!", so it's safe to implement + as a > no-op (except for purposes of the Q instruction). So "+H" is the same as just saying "H" ? I've written pHQ9+ (HQ9+ For Palm) interpreter and don't know how I must implement the "+" operation (everything else are already working) I've been thinking of implementing "+" with it only waiting for 1 sec. (PAUSE statement in SmallBASIC) I can see no purpose of "+" !!? Only "H", "Q" and "9" have meanings (real purpose) not "+". Any suggestions ? -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 29 23:14:56 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r3hc-0001AD-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:14:28 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:14:21 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r3ff-00017k-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:12:27 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:12:21 +0200 (EET) Received: from rhea.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.178]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r3fY-00017e-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:12:20 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-239-183.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.239.183]) by rhea.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE79B36EDE for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 22:12:09 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@rhea.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CA4D818.343C6AE1@dds.nl> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 22:09:44 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [quines] quine classes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > By the way, for assembler code is first-class: you can write > assembler-writing programs in assembler. This would make it possible to > make an eval-type quine by making a program that, given a pointer to > itself in some register, can re-form itself and the calling code. Yes. In fact, my Wierd quine works this way. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Mar 29 23:45:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r4C3-0001FA-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:45:55 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:45:48 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r4Bp-0001F3-00; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:45:41 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:45:34 +0200 (EET) Received: from rhea.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.178]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r4Bi-0001Ex-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:45:34 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-239-183.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.239.183]) by rhea.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4920E36C85 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 22:45:32 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@rhea.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CA4CF5F.7D9C030F@dds.nl> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:32:31 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: cat lang ? References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> <3C9FA2F6.63B8A68A@dds.nl> <005101c1d5b5$960fcfa0$8281ef9b@lennie> <038701c1d5c6$9c89c500$3900a8c0@amir> <20020327221655.A91409@esoteric> <3CA38BCA.E70A536@dds.nl> <043a01c1d6a8$fa9cbbb0$3900a8c0@amir> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc amirlb@myrealbox.com wrote: > > > Usually it also includes Linux, though most > > > of the time I've seen it written as Unix/Linux--maybe because Linux > > > has become a sort of marketing buzzword. > > > > Linux looks like Unix from the outside, however it is not based on > > the Unix sourcecode. Therefore, it is not officially a Unix, so it > > needs to be named seperately. Of course, that leaves one wondering > > what to do with Minix, but I care so few people use it that nobody > > cares :) > > Ummm... There isn't one unix source code. Every Unix has different source > code (otherwise they'd be the same). In fact, many Unices' source code is > unavaliable, so you can't base anything on their code. Linux is not > officially a Unix because nobody paid the fees for whatever organization to > take a look at Linux at say that it's Unix. No, look. It all started with two people at AT&T. They coded a new operating system and called it "Unix". The sourcecode has since been sold to many different companies, all making their own modified versions, but the still based on the original Unix sourcecode. But Linux is different - it is based on the Unix "look and feel" (if you'll allow me to use that for a textual system), but te source code has been rewritten from scratch. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 30 00:31:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r4ty-0001Mi-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:31:18 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:31:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r4sQ-0001MI-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:29:43 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:29:29 +0200 (EET) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r4sB-0001MC-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:29:28 +0200 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p158.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.158]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g2TMTIK28808 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:29:18 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <003d01c1d770$650945a0$9e81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <007301c1d6b0$4641f380$4781ef9b@lennie> <200203290846.g2T8kTs00650@ns3.safety.net> Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:47:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Cliff L. Biffle, > An accumulator is a register used in crippled machine architectures (*grin*) > to do math. As the name implies, the most rudimentary operation performed is > accumulation, or addition (accumulating values one after another into a > total). This allows HQ9+ to perform math. Ok! Now I understand the purpose of "+" operation (accumulator = doing addition maths) but HQ9+ doesn't have any instructions (only H, Q, 9 & + ) for displaying the math answer (doing output). And only addition ! I would rather call it "HQ9" then !! -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 30 02:34:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r6ol-0001bF-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 02:34:03 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 02:33:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r6oF-0001b8-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 02:33:31 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 02:33:24 +0200 (EET) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r6o7-0001b2-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 02:33:24 +0200 Received: from there (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g2U0X7s08218 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:33:11 -0700 Message-Id: <200203300033.g2U0X7s08218@ns3.safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:30:36 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <007301c1d6b0$4641f380$4781ef9b@lennie> <200203290846.g2T8kTs00650@ns3.safety.net> <003d01c1d770$650945a0$9e81ef9b@lennie> In-Reply-To: <003d01c1d770$650945a0$9e81ef9b@lennie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Friday 29 March 2002 05:47 am, you wrote: > Ok! Now I understand the purpose of "+" operation (accumulator = doing > addition maths) Yup! And if you know the size of the register, you can use addition to implement most other mathematical techniques via creative use of overflow (subtraction, etc.). > but HQ9+ doesn't have any instructions (only H, Q, 9 & + ) > for displaying the math answer (doing output). But pure math shouldn't need to be displayed -- it just exists. Displaying it is casting shadows on the wall of Plato's cave. -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 30 05:09:02 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r9D9-0002jq-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:07:23 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:07:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r9D1-0002jk-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:07:15 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:07:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from mailout09.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.84]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16r9Cy-0002je-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:07:12 +0200 Received: from fwd10.sul.t-online.de by mailout09.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 16r8hh-00061X-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 03:34:53 +0100 Received: from esoteric.holy-unicorn (340009195196-0001@[217.230.179.109]) by fwd10.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 16r8hd-26OTsOC; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 03:34:49 +0100 Received: from esoteric.holy-unicorn (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by esoteric.holy-unicorn (8.12.1/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2U2d9gw002110 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 03:39:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from markus@esoteric.holy-unicorn) Received: (from markus@localhost) by esoteric.holy-unicorn (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g2U2d9KC002109 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 03:39:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 03:39:09 +0100 From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (Markus Kliegl) To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Re: [lang] Re: cat lang ? Message-ID: <20020330033909.A1988@esoteric> References: <20020327221655.A91409@esoteric> <20020328172836.79213.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020328172836.79213.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i X-Sender: 340009195196-0001@t-dialin.net X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: markus.kliegl@t-online.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: markus.kliegl@t-online.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc * Brian Connors [020328 19:08]: > > --- Markus Kliegl wrote: [...] > GNU tools can be pretty skanky. Look at less(1) vs. > regular old more(1); less has some useful features but > it's hideously overengineered. I don't want a program > that has at least four pages in Linux in a Nutshell > just to scroll through a text file. That was my point and what I meant with 'weird, twisted and hardly useful features' :-) There are useful features, such as GNU find's '-maxdepth' flag and convenience features such as the 'I' and 'z' flags of GNU tar. But then there's small utilities stuffed with all sorts of features I've never used nor know about, because it takes longer to get the job done reading about all the esoteric features of some GNU utility than just getting it done with some dirty hack involving five pipes. Then again, there's GNU grep, which uses a nice and fast algorithm - I don't consider that bloat. There's also GNU make that actually provides some useful (and often used, for that matter) features; I guess that's mostly due to things like susv2 make not even providing an 'include' command (!). Oh well, I appreciate the GNU utilities and I guess I don't have much right to criticise. I've replaced some of the FreeBSD utilities with the GNU versions, exactly because I find them more convenient. > > gcc has traditionally been the worst offender, IMHO; > it rather bothers me that Linux is heavily dependent > on GNU C language extensions, for example. http://www.open-mag.com/754088105111.htm if Linux wouldn't depend on gcc, vendors could be distributing 47% faster linux kernels (in theory) :-) > > > I believe susv3 is in a stage of final review before > > being released as ISO/IEEE 1003.x-2001. I suppose no > > one cares or uses > > the terms UNIX and the like at that level, though > > :-) > > > > Informally, UNIX is sort of a collective term to > > mean any of the > > operating systems derived from the AT&T UNIX or the > > Berkeley Software > > Distribution (BSD), which was originally also > > derived from the AT&T > > sources (Unix version 6). Usually it also includes > > Linux, though most > > of the time I've seen it written as > > Unix/Linux--maybe because Linux > > has become a sort of marketing buzzword. Studying > > I read an interview with Dennis Ritchie once where he > said he felt Linux was part of the family. POSIX/SUSv3 > aside, that's good enough for me :-) Hmm, I wonder if Plan 9 actually implements POSIX syscalls, etc. Using Linux doesn't feel too different from using FreeBSD, but using Unixware, Solaris, or Tru64 feels quite different from using FreeBSD or Linux, IMHO. Personally, I don't know anyone that doesn't consider Linux a Unix in the sense the term is usually used. I strongly suspect Unix/Linux (now, I've even seen Linux/Unix) to be a mere marketing term. I've also seen many programs that run on most unices branded 'Linux programs'. > > > the history > > and origins of all the various "flavors" of UNIX can > > be quite > > interesting; I can provide links and pointers if > > anyone's interested :-) > > That ought to be fun. Let me throw in my BSD page to > help get you started: > > http://www.geocities.com/connorbd/bsd.html Nice article. I also liked your 'why rms is a crackpot'... there's an article by him about his fight against Symbolics that started the whole FSF and GNU stuff here: http://www.lysator.liu.se/history/garb/txt/87-2-rms.txt That article literally scared me and all my sympathies went to Symbolics. > > > There are so many interesting things, I wonder why > > the hell I had to > > learn about the French Revolution and Prussian > > kings. *sigh* > > Yeah, huh? > I know of geeks that drove along the Oregon trail because they were so interested in that part of American history. I know of geeks who are willing to kill to get their hands on old computers. (We're on the chat list now, right? Ok, I'll proceed :-) What makes American history more important than the history of UNIX? 'You have to know about past events to understand what is going on in the world now.' I'd say the same holds for UNIX; what is the significance of Linux having been written completely from scratch? It's a matter of involvement and somehow our societies have decided that people have to be aware of current world politics. Observing world politics, I haven't found many things terribbly relevant to me and I am cautious of all the propaganda and I find myself thinking, 'They killed Kennedy, they killed Lennon, they killed Martin Luther King. Now there's Bush. Where are assassins when you need them?'. Watching news makes me think 'ignorant americans' or 'stuffed full of propaganda americans', but hey, that's probably just the European liberal propaganda in me. Maybe it's just me, though, as I live in my own weird, little world :-) Anyway, I have strong ideals, just as RMS does, and ideals give you power, but you can get lost in an endless battle for nothing. As the most wise person I've encountered, Erik Naggum, once said: 'If you want _any_ system to change, exploit it, do not fight it.' Strong ideals seem to always arise from being forced into something, one doesn't agree with, or not having control of something, and fights for them seem to always involve forcing others into the ideals. My conclusion: just go your own way and if it's Good, interested people will follow. Ok, now how did I get into this? Anyway, I'll be gone the next few days Markus From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 30 10:26:23 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rEA8-0003JN-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:24:36 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:24:29 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rEA0-0003JH-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:24:28 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:24:27 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rE9y-0003JB-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:24:26 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2U8OPr13701 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:24:25 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2U8OJC03702 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:24:22 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:24:19 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Re: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? In-Reply-To: <200203300033.g2U0X7s08218@ns3.safety.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > Yup! And if you know the size of the register, you can use addition to > implement most other mathematical techniques via creative use of overflow > (subtraction, etc.). "Most other" :) What mathematical operations are there? Lemmesee... um, incrementation, constant addition, constant substraction, decrementation... yep, that's about it. (Once I heard some rumors of such thing as factorials, but I think they were impure mathematics.) Of course, one could also have some use for being able to write even some constant - but maybe pure mathematics is weirdly related to relativity. > > but HQ9+ doesn't have any instructions (only H, Q, 9 & + ) > > for displaying the math answer (doing output). > > But pure math shouldn't need to be displayed -- it just exists. Displaying > it is casting shadows on the wall of Plato's cave. That's one of the best excuses I've seen in a while. Apparently pure mathematics does not need input either. I propose a mathematical hierarchy in the vein of chomsky's language hierarchy: level 0 (pure mathematics) does not have input or output, but can compute "most things"; evel 1 (impure mathematics) adds input and output to this (curiously, e(exclamation) seems to implement this level of mathematic expressivity); and level 2 has the rest. It's so impure that it can't even prove its own consistency without being inconsistent. This should be very educative to Platonists who vouch for pure ideas... -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 30 11:29:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rFAF-0003QV-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:28:47 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:28:40 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rFA7-0003QP-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:28:39 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:28:37 +0200 (EET) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rFA5-0003QJ-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:28:37 +0200 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2U9SZr18308 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:28:36 +0200 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g2U9SWH06470 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:28:32 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:28:32 +0200 (EET) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Re: [lang] Re: GNU utils In-Reply-To: <20020330033909.A1988@esoteric> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, Markus Kliegl wrote: > * Brian Connors [020328 19:08]: > > GNU tools can be pretty skanky. Look at less(1) vs. > > regular old more(1); less has some useful features but > > it's hideously overengineered. I don't want a program > > that has at least four pages in Linux in a Nutshell > > just to scroll through a text file. I guess a small study in available pagers would certainly yield better alternatives. However, in big systems, it doesn't really matter much how big your utils are. And BSD's more really irritates me out of my skin. It seems to have back-scrolling, but instantly quits upon showing end-of-file. This means 'G' does not allow you to view the file from end backwards... > of GNU tar. But then there's small utilities stuffed with all sorts of > features I've never used nor know about, because it takes longer to > get the job done reading about all the esoteric features of some GNU > utility than just getting it done with some dirty hack involving five True. Even using GNU systems, one is often better off doing everything in the general Unix way. But this is because of portability, not trouble of learning: if you had to learn to use the Unix util, it would not have been much more trouble to learn to use the corresponding GNU util. It's the same with programming languages: for example, you might get something done very quickly in C, even if it's done much "easier" in some other programming language you'd have to brush up to be able to write the program. Or often it's more trouble to learn to use someone else's program than to write your own (as is often the case with Perl / PHP). > > gcc has traditionally been the worst offender, IMHO; > > it rather bothers me that Linux is heavily dependent > > on GNU C language extensions, for example. > http://www.open-mag.com/754088105111.htm > if Linux wouldn't depend on gcc, vendors could be distributing 47% > faster linux kernels (in theory) :-) This sounds a lot like one's regular software technology fud. It's basically Intel's attempt to show that MMX / streams is of some use. It's totally Intel-dependent, because the speedup is based on the compiler producing code fthat uses features of Intel chips the other compilers don't use. For code that is not doing heavy calculations, I wonder whether there is any benefit at all. In addition, the Linux kernel already has the Intel code for some calculation-heavy stuff (such as checksums) written by hand in assembler for MMX. > Nice article. I also liked your 'why rms is a crackpot'... there's > an article by him about his fight against Symbolics that started the > whole FSF and GNU stuff here: I tried to explain why every geek evangelista (RMS, ESR, Larry _Wall, TDR, ...) seems to have little or any thought on what they're saying. I came to the conclusion that because they are prophets, not people, they see spreading of the faith as their primary responsibility, and by actually making compromises they could only amake things worse. So they kind-of become non-living statues to stand for their ideology. > 'ignorant americans' or 'stuffed full of propaganda americans', but > hey, that's probably just the European liberal propaganda in me. Maybe I'm a little bit worried about this. I know almost no people who really like the US, and those who do, are big idiots by my standards (for other reasons). It's almost an intellectual requirement that you hate US - but the few times I get to speak to "average" americans, they seem to be so clueless that you can't even be angry at them... I sometimes think, could we be living in the same kind of soap bubble, making hypocrite judgements on other people's deeds - and however, we never thought we were the ones who did everything right. Is the European's sole justification for disrespecting Americans that we have bigger tradition at self-criticism? > My conclusion: just go your own way and if it's Good, interested > people will follow. Ok, now how did I get into this? Anyway, I'll be > gone the next few days I quite much agree. Too bad that interested people will follow anything interesting, whether it is good or not. Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 30 15:25:47 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rIrM-0003se-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:25:32 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:25:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rIqV-0003sU-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:24:39 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:24:32 +0200 (EET) Received: from dark.darkweb.com ([216.163.74.170]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rIqN-0003sO-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:24:31 +0200 Received: from localhost (benrg@localhost) by dark.darkweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA28733 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:24:29 -0800 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:24:29 -0800 (PST) From: Ben Rudiak-Gould To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? In-Reply-To: <200203300033.g2U0X7s08218@ns3.safety.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > But pure math shouldn't need to be displayed -- it just exists. Displaying > it is casting shadows on the wall of Plato's cave. But methinks the same could be said of the functionality captured in the H, Q, and 9 instructions. And + as well for that matter, not to mention computer programming in general. In order to address the concerns of those like Lennie De Villiers who feel that HQ9+ has insufficient expressive power, I would like to propose a new language called "HQ9+-<>[],.". The syntax and semantics are left to the reader's imagination. -- Ben From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 30 18:06:27 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rLMl-0004Bb-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:06:07 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:06:00 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rLM4-0004BR-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:05:24 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:05:18 +0200 (EET) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com ([192.108.102.143]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rLLx-0004BL-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:05:17 +0200 Received: from amir amirlb@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.219.225.37] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.88 $ on Novell NetWare; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 09:05:06 -0700 Message-ID: <052101c1d804$5753e7f0$3900a8c0@amir> From: To: References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> <3C9FA2F6.63B8A68A@dds.nl> <005101c1d5b5$960fcfa0$8281ef9b@lennie> <038701c1d5c6$9c89c500$3900a8c0@amir> <20020327221655.A91409@esoteric> <3CA38BCA.E70A536@dds.nl> <043a01c1d6a8$fa9cbbb0$3900a8c0@amir> <3CA4CF5F.7D9C030F@dds.nl> Subject: [lang] Unix history Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 18:02:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > > Ummm... There isn't one unix source code. Every Unix has different source > > code (otherwise they'd be the same). In fact, many Unices' source code is > > unavaliable, so you can't base anything on their code. Linux is not > > officially a Unix because nobody paid the fees for whatever organization to > > take a look at Linux at say that it's Unix. > > No, look. It all started with two people at AT&T. They coded a new operating > system and called it "Unix". The sourcecode has since been sold to many > different companies, all making their own modified versions, but the still > based on the original Unix sourcecode. But Linux is different - it is based on > the Unix "look and feel" (if you'll allow me to use that for a textual system), > but te source code has been rewritten from scratch. Except the poor guys on Berkley, who copied the AT&T source base, and got sued. So they rewrote Unix using a different impletmentation, and these are the BSD Unices. Now many Unices are based on the (free) BSD source instead of the AT&T source (I think that the AT&T source belongs to Novell now). Examples are SunOs, BSDI, OSF and Linux. -- Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! lightstep (Amir Livne) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 30 22:41:54 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rPfS-0004iN-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 22:41:42 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 22:41:35 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rPf8-0004iG-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 22:41:22 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 22:41:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rPf1-0004iA-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 22:41:15 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-216-20.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.216.20]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD888A37DB for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 21:41:09 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CA62259.BD101524@dds.nl> Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 21:38:50 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Unix history References: <20020324225035.4003.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <002c01c1d447$0d7f5620$bb81ef9b@lennie> <3C9FA2F6.63B8A68A@dds.nl> <005101c1d5b5$960fcfa0$8281ef9b@lennie> <038701c1d5c6$9c89c500$3900a8c0@amir> <20020327221655.A91409@esoteric> <3CA38BCA.E70A536@dds.nl> <043a01c1d6a8$fa9cbbb0$3900a8c0@amir> <3CA4CF5F.7D9C030F@dds.nl> <052101c1d804$5753e7f0$3900a8c0@amir> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc amirlb@myrealbox.com wrote: > > > Ummm... There isn't one unix source code. Every Unix has different > source > > > code (otherwise they'd be the same). In fact, many Unices' source code > is > > > unavaliable, so you can't base anything on their code. Linux is not > > > officially a Unix because nobody paid the fees for whatever organization > to > > > take a look at Linux at say that it's Unix. > > > > No, look. It all started with two people at AT&T. They coded a new > operating > > system and called it "Unix". The sourcecode has since been sold to many > > different companies, all making their own modified versions, but the still > > based on the original Unix sourcecode. But Linux is different - it is > based on > > the Unix "look and feel" (if you'll allow me to use that for a textual > system), > > but te source code has been rewritten from scratch. > > Except the poor guys on Berkley, who copied the AT&T source base, and got > sued. So they rewrote Unix using a different impletmentation, and these are > the BSD Unices. Now many Unices are based on the (free) BSD source instead > of the AT&T source (I think that the AT&T source belongs to Novell now). > Examples are SunOs, BSDI, OSF and Linux. No, Linux isn't based on BSD. It has been coded from scratch completely independently of all other Unices, and even the utilities are those from GNU which have also been coded from scratch independently of BSD and the official Unices (although they were originally intended to run on Hurd which didn't become very popular since Linux achieved a usable stage earlier). From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sat Mar 30 22:43:02 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rPgi-0004iu-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 22:43:00 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 22:42:53 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rPga-0004im-00; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 22:42:53 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sat, 30 Mar 2002 22:42:42 +0200 (EET) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rPgQ-0004ig-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 22:42:42 +0200 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-216-20.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.216.20]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9519E8A3315 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 2002 21:42:40 +0100 (MET) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CA622B5.F88777A0@dds.nl> Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 21:40:22 +0100 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote: > In order to address the concerns of those like Lennie De Villiers who feel > that HQ9+ has insufficient expressive power, I would like to propose a new > language called "HQ9+-<>[],.". The syntax and semantics are left to the > reader's imagination. Looks like Brainfuck with a few niceb but unnecessary bonus commands... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Mar 31 01:55:39 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rSfE-0005Au-00; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 01:53:40 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 31 Mar 2002 01:53:34 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rSc2-0005Ak-00; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 01:50:22 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 31 Mar 2002 01:50:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.engelsinfo.de ([212.6.209.241]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rSbv-0005Ae-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 01:50:15 +0200 Received: from there (morgoth [212.6.209.231]) by mail.engelsinfo.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA17109 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 00:40:18 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200203302340.AAA17109@mail.engelsinfo.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Rafal M. Sulejman" Organization: none To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] (Quite) Esoteric command shell (?) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 00:53:23 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] X-Default-Editor: vim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rafal@engelsinfo.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rafal@engelsinfo.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Well, not exactly esoteric _language_, but could be interesting for Lunixers "Morse Code user interface for Linux. Morseall allows you to control your computer by tapping morse code on the buttons of a mouse." -- project description at Sourceforge. http://sourceforge.net/projects/morseall/ -- . . . . | Rafal M. Sulejman /"\ . . . . | \ / # . # . | ASCII Ribbon Campaign for HTML-free mail X . . . . | / \ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Mar 31 02:23:55 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rT8R-0005GL-00; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 02:23:51 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 31 Mar 2002 02:23:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rT82-0005GF-00; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 02:23:26 +0200 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 31 Mar 2002 02:23:19 +0200 (EET) Received: from [212.16.6.108] (helo=frox25.dhs.org) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rT7u-0005G9-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 02:23:18 +0200 Received: (qmail 24232 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2002 00:10:40 -0000 Received: from heartw.ih (10.0.17.4) by nova.ih with SMTP; 31 Mar 2002 00:10:40 -0000 Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 04:15:35 +0400 From: Mtv Europe X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <98181636256.20020331041535@frox25.dhs.org> To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] another quine In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------99E51BA935F238" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.dhs.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mtve@frox25.dhs.org Precedence: bulk X-list: misc ------------99E51BA935F238 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All! Wednesday, March 27, 2002, 12:18:55 AM, Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote: > Here's an idea: instead of a fixed-width encoding, use an order-0 Huffman > code. Attached quine uses this encoding: char code freq { 01000 3 } 11000 4 ] 1100 18 [ 0100 18 ) 0010 13 ( 1010 13 | 110 75 0 111 77 1 011 120 ' ' 101 93 ! 001 32 ---- Mtv Europe http://www.frox25.dhs.org/~mtve/code/eso/kayak/quine/ ------------99E51BA935F238 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="quine_6367.kayak" Content-Transfer-Encoding: x-uue Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="quine_6367.kayak" begin 644 quine_6367.kayak M,"@Q*7LP?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@ M,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P M?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\ M,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ M(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@ M,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P M(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\ M,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ M(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@ M,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P M?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\ M,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q M(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@ M,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P M?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\ M,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q M(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@ M,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P M?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\ M,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q M(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@ M,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P M(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@ M,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ M(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@ 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M,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P M?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\ M,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ M(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@ M,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P M?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\ M,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q M(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@ M,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P M?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\ M,2`P(#$@?2@Q*3$@,2@A?#%\,3$I>S`@,2`A6S`@,2`P?#$@(2`Q(#`@,2`P M(#$@,"`Q("%\,2`P?#%=?%LA6R%;,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P(#$@ M,"`Q77Q;,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,'PQ(#`@,2`P(#$@(7PQ73$Q(#!\,5U\6S!\ M,2`A?%LA?%LQ(#$Q73$Q77PA(#%;,'PQ("%\,2`P?#$@,'PQ("%;,'PP73$@ M,'PQ(#!\,5TQ73$Q73$Q(#%;,'PQ(#$H(7PQ?#$Q*3%=,3%]*"%\,7PQ,2DQ M(#`H(7PQ?#$Q*7LP?#$@(7Q;(7Q;(7Q;(7Q;(7Q;,7PQ77PA77PA77PA77PA M77PA(#%;(2`Q,"`P*"%\,7PQ,2DP(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`Q,%LP?#!= M,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,'PQ(#`@,5TQ?2@A?#%\,3$I,"@A?#`P*7LP M?#$@,'PQ(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P(#$@,"`Q(#!\,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@ M,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P?#$@,"`Q(#`@,2`P*#`Q*3$@,"@P,7PQ?"$I,"`P 6*#$I,2`Q*#%\,3!\(2DQ?2@Q,'PA*0`` ` end ------------99E51BA935F238-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Sun Mar 31 23:15:46 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rljN-0009KU-00; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:15:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:15:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rli4-0009I9-00; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:13:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:13:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rlhw-0009I3-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:13:44 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-234-57.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.234.57]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B22A371AA for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:13:39 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CA76D66.B0AD4D03@dds.nl> Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:11:19 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [Kayak] another quine References: <98181636256.20020331041535@frox25.dhs.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Mtv Europe wrote: > Hello All! > > Wednesday, March 27, 2002, 12:18:55 AM, Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote: > > > Here's an idea: instead of a fixed-width encoding, use an order-0 Huffman > > code. > > Attached quine uses this encoding: > > char code freq > { 01000 3 3? Must be a typo... > } 11000 4 > ] 1100 18 > [ 0100 18 > ) 0010 13 > ( 1010 13 > | 110 75 > 0 111 77 > 1 011 120 > ' ' 101 93 > ! 001 32 From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Apr 01 13:03:10 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ryeX-000BA8-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:03:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ryeP-000B9w-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ryeC-000B9h-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:45 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p29.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.29]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g31A2ZT21311 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:02:36 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <004901c1d963$95d5efe0$1d81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:38:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Ben Rudiak-Gould, > But methinks the same could be said of the functionality captured in the > H, Q, and 9 instructions. And + as well for that matter, not to mention > computer programming in general. Ok! :) I've implemented "+" but it doesn't do anything - Only exist ! There is nothing wrong with HQ9+ (don't take me wrong here !)... I just wanna know how do I implement "+" and what's its purpose. > In order to address the concerns of those like Lennie De Villiers who feel > that HQ9+ has insufficient expressive power, I would like to propose a new > language called "HQ9+-<>[],.". The syntax and semantics are left to the > reader's imagination. Hahaha :-) Not Bad ! :-) -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Apr 01 13:03:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ryeM-000B9y-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ryeA-000B9g-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rye2-000B9a-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:35 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p29.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.29]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g31A2HT21256 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:02:20 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <003e01c1d963$8d8cf720$1d81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <007301c1d6b0$4641f380$4781ef9b@lennie> <200203290846.g2T8kTs00650@ns3.safety.net> <003d01c1d770$650945a0$9e81ef9b@lennie> <200203300033.g2U0X7s08218@ns3.safety.net> Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 22:33:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Cliff L. Biffle, > Yup! And if you know the size of the register, you can use addition to > implement most other mathematical techniques via creative use of overflow > (subtraction, etc.). Nice ! :) Unfortunatly I know nothing about this (register, accumulator etc ?) Anyother esoteric languages that make use of this method for doing maths ? > But pure math shouldn't need to be displayed -- it just exists. Displaying > it is casting shadows on the wall of Plato's cave. ?? Every math sum must have an answer and what would that be - doing maths without getting the answer! -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Apr 01 13:03:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ryeP-000B9v-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rydw-000B9Y-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rydn-000B9S-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:02:20 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p29.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.29]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g31A1wT21231 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:02:03 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <003801c1d963$8387f680$1d81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <200203302340.AAA17109@mail.engelsinfo.de> Subject: [lang] Re: (Quite) Esoteric command shell (?) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 12:45:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Rafal M. Sulejman, > Well, not exactly esoteric _language_, but could be interesting for > Lunixers > > "Morse Code user interface for Linux. Morseall allows you to control > your computer by tapping morse code on the buttons of a mouse." -- > project description at Sourceforge. > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/morseall/ Wow! :) In my book this is very esoteric (even if its not an esoteric language!)... What about a Morseall for MS Windows project ??! -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Apr 01 13:21:28 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16rywH-000BGu-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:21:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:21:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ryw6-000BGo-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:21:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:21:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web12906.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.174.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ryvy-000BGi-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 13:21:06 +0300 Message-ID: <20020401102055.31021.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.78.145.92] by web12906.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 02:20:55 PST Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:20:55 -0800 (PST) From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <003e01c1d963$8d8cf720$1d81ef9b@lennie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: order_of_may@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: order_of_may@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --- D De Villiers wrote: > Nice ! :) Unfortunatly I know nothing about this (register, accumulator etc > ?) Anyother esoteric languages that make use of this method for doing > maths ? Brainfuck, for example - you can survive without the "-" operator quite easily. > ?? Every math sum must have an answer and what would that be - doing maths > without getting the answer! If you don't get the answer, it doesn't mean the answer doesn't exist :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Apr 01 20:04:08 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16s5Df-000CCx-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:03:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:03:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16s5Be-000CCj-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:01:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:01:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web10903.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.131.39]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16s5BW-000CCa-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:01:34 +0300 Message-ID: <20020401170114.87470.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [141.154.197.166] by web10903.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 09:01:14 PST Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:01:14 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Connors Subject: [lang] Re: Unix history To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <3CA62259.BD101524@dds.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: connorbd@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: connorbd@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > > Examples are SunOs, BSDI, OSF and Linux. Someone didn't read my webpage... > No, Linux isn't based on BSD. It has been coded > from scratch completely > independently of all other Unices, and even the > utilities are those from GNU > which have also been coded from scratch > independently of BSD and the official > Unices (although they were originally intended to > run on Hurd which didn't > become very popular since Linux achieved a usable > stage earlier). Linux was never meant to be particularly BSDish anyway; it was based on SysV (at least as soon as it reached any significant level of maturity) and only looks sort of BSDish in the userland. I think the way I heard it put was something along the lines of "the passport says Finland but it's originally from Jersey". I sort of look at GNU as being the predecessor to Apple's Copland in an odd sort of way; Copland never even made it out the door, and the body was eventually stripped for parts. /Brian ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Mon Apr 01 22:06:19 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16s788-000CUM-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:06:12 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:06:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16s77j-000CUG-00; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:05:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:05:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web21408.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.232.78]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16s77S-000CUA-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:05:30 +0300 Message-ID: <20020401190524.19320.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.120.209.42] by web21408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 11:05:24 PST Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:05:24 -0800 (PST) From: Quowong Liu Subject: [lang] New language: conser To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-1834750279-1017687924=:15124" X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: qpliu@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: qpliu@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --0-1834750279-1017687924=:15124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hello. Here's a language I invented. I also have an interpreter, which doesn't correctly implement it, and isn't good code, but it is enough to start playing with it. The run the interpreter in repl mode: java conser To run programs: java conser program.cons The conser programming language -------------------------------- The only data type is sets of pairs (of sets). A program has to cons for any data other than the empty set, so it's a conser. Also, conser is sort of a combination of Conway and surreal. It's a declarative language. A program consists of function definitions, which may be mutually recursive. The function main must take zero or one argument. When the program is run, the main function is evaluated. If it takes an argument, the argument is 1 appended with the contents of stdin, encoded as a surreal number. The result of evaluating main, if it is an integral surreal number, gets decoded into a byte stream with the first byte discarded, and sent to stdout. The extra byte needs to be added or removed in case the input or the output begins with 0 or 255. Example functions: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Infinite loop." loop = loop. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Iteration. Assumes f takes a single argument. If n is a positive integer in a canonical form, gives the result of applying f n times to the argument." 2 a b = b. iterate-f n a = (iterate-f ( ) , & ! = . are special tokens. Whitespace is not needed to distinguish them. Unbroken strings of any printable character other than the special tokens or double quotes form identifier tokens. A function definition consists of an identifier token, which names the function zero or more identifier tokens, which are the formal arguments the "=" token, which separates the specification from the body an expression, which consists of identifier tokens and/or "<" ">" "(" ")" "," "&" "!" tokens, and must be a valid expression the "." token, which ends the definition Examples: empty = (). 0 = (,). 1 = (0,). -1 = (,0). bits = (0 1). f a b = b. The ( ) , & ! characters can only be used to form cons, union, intersection, or set subtraction expressions. A cons, intersection, and set subtraction expressions consist of the "(" token zero or more expressions the "," token for cons, "&" for intersection, or "!" for set subtraction zero or more expressions the ")" token. A union expression consists of the "(" token zero or more expressions the ")" token Predefined functions: < is car. > is cdr. (,) is cons. () is union. (&) is intersection. (!) is set subtraction. Examples: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- union a b = (a b). intersection a b = (a&b). subtract a b = (a!b). 3-union a b c = (a b c). --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since there are no higher-order functions, there is no need to explicitly specify precedence, so there is no way to do so. Some things to note: <(a b) is equivalent to (l. map-f l = (fl). ? a = (>a!2a). 2 a b = b. concat' a b = (a b ?(>a,b)). "concat' evaluates to () if a is () or b is ()." concat a = (? a ?(>a,a). --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello world example: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hello world!: Prints Hello world! to stdout. Takes forever to run." "Addition." + a b = (+a b + a>b). "Inverse under addition." - a = (->a,-a b * a>b - *>a>b, + + *b - *b + + *>a b * aa; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from riff ([24.92.246.4]) by mail1.twcny.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:26:47 -0500 Received: from rob by riff with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 16s9KC-0000QP-00 for ; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:26:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:26:48 -0500 From: Rob Speer To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Message-ID: <20020401212648.GD1101@twcny.rr.com> References: <004901c1d963$95d5efe0$1d81ef9b@lennie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <004901c1d963$95d5efe0$1d81ef9b@lennie> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Is-It-Not-Nifty: www.sluggy.com Sender: Rob Speer X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rob@twcny.rr.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: rob@twcny.rr.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 10:38:34PM +0200, D De Villiers wrote: > Ben Rudiak-Gould, > > > But methinks the same could be said of the functionality captured in the > > H, Q, and 9 instructions. And + as well for that matter, not to mention > > computer programming in general. > > Ok! :) I've implemented "+" but it doesn't do anything - Only exist ! > There is nothing wrong with HQ9+ (don't take me wrong here !)... I just > wanna know how do I implement "+" and what's its purpose. You don't, and there is no purpose. You seem to be entirely missing the fact that the HQ9+ language is a joke. There is no need to actually implement it, though the fact that someone already did (in Ocaml) gives it a sort of completeness. -- Rob Speer From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 08:01:02 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sGOL-000Dkd-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 07:59:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 07:59:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sGMp-000DkR-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 07:57:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 07:57:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sGMh-000DkL-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 07:57:51 +0300 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:38305 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[Ry6XdnT3uqvdNAA6Mx158+hc8MO61UgC]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 06:57:28 +0200 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 06:57:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Orjan Johansen To: Esoteric Languages List Subject: [lang] CHQRS9+ In-Reply-To: <20020401212648.GD1101@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Rob Speer wrote: > There is no need to actually implement it, though the fact that > someone already did (in Ocaml) gives it a sort of completeness. On the other hand, it might be a useful preliminary test of the power of other programming languages to see whether they can implement HQ9+. I hereby declare the extended language CHQRS9+, probably reinventing the wheel: C =3D prints the entire input of the program to output. H =3D prints "Hello world!". Q =3D prints the program source. R =3D prints the input rot-13'ed. S =3D sorts the input lines and prints them. 9 =3D prints the text of "99 bottles of beer". + =3D increments the accumulator. Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My Unlambda page: Latest contraption: Unlambda to Ocaml compiler. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 09:11:36 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sHVr-000DuT-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:11:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:11:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sHVI-000DuK-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:10:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:10:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web12906.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.174.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sHVA-000DuE-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:10:40 +0300 Message-ID: <20020402061038.53243.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.78.145.92] by web12906.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:10:38 PST Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:10:38 -0800 (PST) From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: order_of_may@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: order_of_may@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --- Orjan Johansen wrote: > I hereby declare the extended language CHQRS9+, probably reinventing the > wheel: > > C = prints the entire input of the program to output. > H = prints "Hello world!". > Q = prints the program source. > R = prints the input rot-13'ed. > S = sorts the input lines and prints them. > 9 = prints the text of "99 bottles of beer". > + = increments the accumulator. I propose to add another instruction: I = interprets a CHQRS9+ program given in the input. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 09:52:40 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sI9l-000E5J-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:52:37 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:52:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sI9a-000E5D-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:52:26 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:52:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sI9S-000E57-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:52:18 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g326qFr27338 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:52:17 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g326q9W32242 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:52:12 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:52:09 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: New language: conser In-Reply-To: <20020401190524.19320.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This language seems quite neat. Maybe this could serve as the long-awaited pairing function tarpit. (We already have functional, imperative and combinatorial ones, as well as message-sending. Missing are a concurrency tarpit, where the only data type is thread, join-calculus tarpit, OO tarpit, um...) Anyway, I'm not totally clear about the semantics of the language. For example, does (a,b) form a set with one element, the pair of a and b? Is (A) always the same as A? What do you mean by consing with respect to sets - adding one element to the set? What does (a,) put in the cdr? The empty set? On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Quowong Liu wrote: > argument, the argument is 1 appended with the contents of stdin, > encoded as a surreal number. The result of evaluating main, if it is Does the 1 come first or do the contents of stdin come first? I guess from your example programs that a surreal number n+1 is a set of one element, a pair (n,). Is this so? > an integral surreal number, gets decoded into a byte stream with the > first byte discarded, and sent to stdout. The extra byte needs to be > added or removed in case the input or the output begins with 0 or 255. Is the byte stream encoded as a base-256 number? > Predefined functions: > < is car. > > is cdr. > (,) is cons. > () is union. > (&) is intersection. > (!) is set subtraction. What are the semantics of these? Could you give some examples of what arguments yield what result? If I guess correctly, car returns the union of first elements of the pairs of a set, whereas cdr returns the union of second elements of the pairs of a set. Is this so? > Since there are no higher-order functions, there is no need to > explicitly specify precedence, so there is no way to do so. Doesn't a unit union provide a way to explicitly define precedence anyway? > Some things to note: > <(a b) is equivalent to ( ((a b)) is equivalent to (a b). > ((a b) c) is equivalent to (a b c). > f (a b) c is equivalent to (f a c f b c). > f (a b) (c d) is equivalent to (f a c f a d f b c f b d). > f () is always (). > f () a is always (). > f a () is always (). Okay, now this seems to play a central role in really defining what the language does. Functions seem to have a set-unwinding nature - I guess they then receive sets of one element as arguments? > Should conser programs be lazily evaluated? > > If, when forcing f a b, if a evaluates to (), then f a b = () and b > never needs to be evaluated. However, if a never terminates, and b > would evaluate to (), then, if the order of evaluation is left to right, > f a b would never terminate, even if b evaluates to (). If the > evaluation of a and b are done in parallel, then f a b = () if either a > or b is (). I think parallel evaluation would be natural anyway, because you need exactly one element of each set to be able to call f at all. This will, of course, require lazy sets - which might be some trouble to implement. > Still, with lazy evaluation, > (finite-set & infinite-set) either is finite-set or doesn't terminate > (finite-set ! infinite-set) either is () or doesn't terminate Of course. But with a lazy implementation of sets, you can make the expression terminate in every case where it is possible to terminate at all. Actually, I think the language could get some very interesting features if made lazy. -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 09:56:51 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sIDq-000E6m-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:56:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:56:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sIDU-000E6W-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:56:28 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:56:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sIDN-000E6Q-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 09:56:21 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g326uJr28903 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:56:20 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g326uHx32452 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:56:17 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:56:17 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ In-Reply-To: <20020402061038.53243.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > > C = prints the entire input of the program to output. > > H = prints "Hello world!". > > Q = prints the program source. > > R = prints the input rot-13'ed. > > S = sorts the input lines and prints them. > > 9 = prints the text of "99 bottles of beer". > > + = increments the accumulator. > I propose to add another instruction: > I = interprets a CHQRS9+ program given in the input. Interestingly, if the 'I' already comes from the input, it is equivalent to a NOP. This is a cheat many other programming languages have - for example, many so-called interpreters actually only read in an expression of the language and call a language-level eval (or equivalent). Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 11:02:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sJF6-000EJc-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:02:12 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:02:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sJER-000EJR-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:01:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:01:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sJEJ-000EJK-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:01:23 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.165 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:07:05 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:58:59 +0100 Message-ID: <000601c1da1c$3f7eab50$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <003e01c1d963$8d8cf720$1d81ef9b@lennie> Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc >>it is casting shadows on the wall of Plato's cave. >?? Every math sum must have an answer and what would that be - doing maths >without getting the answer! I think the idea is getting the answers without doing math. that's where AI comes in! From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 12:16:26 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKOd-000EZM-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:16:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:16:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKNj-000EZD-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:15:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:15:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from dark.darkweb.com ([216.163.74.170]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKNc-000EZ4-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:15:04 +0300 Received: from localhost (benrg@localhost) by dark.darkweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04842 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 01:14:54 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 01:14:54 -0800 (PST) From: Ben Rudiak-Gould To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: New language: conser In-Reply-To: <20020401190524.19320.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Quowong Liu wrote: > Hello. > > Here's a language I invented. I love it. Here's a suggestion for solving the problem of astronomical running times for nontrivial I/O: instead of encoding the input and output as integers, encode them as binary fractions, so "Hello, World!" would be something like 0.0100100001100101011011000110110001101111001011000010000001010- 11101101111011100100110110001100100001000010000101. The surreals are effectively unary for integers but binary for fractions, so an O(log n) representation (and processing time) for the fractions should be possible, I think. Also, you might be able to lazify it, at least for input. You would have the same problem with zero bytes in the input/output (except at the end instead of the beginning), and it could be solved by the same kluge. -- Ben From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 12:41:27 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKmy-000EeG-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:41:16 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:41:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKmk-000Ee5-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:41:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:40:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKmb-000Edz-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:40:53 +0300 Received: from there (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g329eks20169 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:40:50 -0700 Message-Id: <200204020940.g329eks20169@ns3.safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:40:46 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <004901c1d963$95d5efe0$1d81ef9b@lennie> <20020401212648.GD1101@twcny.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <20020401212648.GD1101@twcny.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Monday 01 April 2002 02:26 pm, you wrote: > You seem to be entirely missing the fact that the HQ9+ language is a > joke. Depends on perspective; from what I can tell, I've written nearly as many working pieces of software in HQ9+ as are available in, say, Malboge. I do, after all, have a working Hello, World!, a quine, an implementation of ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall, and in fact a recursive Fibonacci-sequence generator (with optional language extension F). > There is no need to actually implement it, though the fact that > someone already did (in Ocaml) gives it a sort of completeness. I have working implementations in the following languages, actually. --Java --ANSI C --TI-92 calculator C --TI-BASIC --Visual Basic --TRS-80 BASIC (model 100) --Perl --Ruby --PHP Coming soon: --Brainfuck! Mwa ha ha! (riiiiiight) -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 12:43:36 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKpC-000EfY-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:43:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:43:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKot-000EfL-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:43:16 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:43:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKom-000EfF-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:43:08 +0300 Received: from there (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g329h6s20250 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:43:06 -0700 Message-Id: <200204020943.g329h6s20250@ns3.safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:43:06 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Monday 01 April 2002 09:57 pm, you wrote: > C = prints the entire input of the program to output. > H = prints "Hello world!". > Q = prints the program source. > R = prints the input rot-13'ed. > S = sorts the input lines and prints them. > 9 = prints the text of "99 bottles of beer". > + = increments the accumulator. I've had ROT13 proposed as an extension before. I wholeheartedly support these language extensions and will consider them an 'optional' part of the fundamental standard. I do suggest the addition of language extension F (prints a Fibonacci sequence until killed) and D (a three-D first-person polygon-based shooter, to demonstrate the speed of CHQRSFD9+ and improve its embedded-systems appeal). -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 12:44:40 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKqF-000Eil-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:44:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:44:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKq7-000EiT-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:44:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:44:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKq0-000EiN-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:44:24 +0300 Received: from there (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g329iMs20315 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:44:22 -0700 Message-Id: <200204020944.g329iMs20315@ns3.safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:44:23 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <20020402061038.53243.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20020402061038.53243.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Monday 01 April 2002 11:10 pm, you wrote: > I = interprets a CHQRS9+ program given in the input. This opens the possibilty for recursive CHQRSDIF9+ programs. I like it. -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 12:45:42 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKrG-000Ekb-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:45:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:45:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKr8-000EkQ-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:45:34 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:45:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKr0-000EkA-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:45:26 +0300 Received: from there (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g329jOs20391 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:45:24 -0700 Message-Id: <200204020945.g329jOs20391@ns3.safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 02:45:24 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <000601c1da1c$3f7eab50$a500000a@td165> In-Reply-To: <000601c1da1c$3f7eab50$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tuesday 02 April 2002 12:58 am, you wrote: > I think the idea is getting the answers without doing math. that's where AI > comes in! Actually, this brings us to my next language, HQ9+42. -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 12:52:56 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKy2-000Enz-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:52:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:52:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKxg-000Enj-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:52:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:52:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com ([192.108.102.143]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sKxY-000Enb-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:52:12 +0300 Received: from amir amirlb@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.219.225.37] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.88 $ on Novell NetWare; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 02:51:56 -0700 Message-ID: <010501c1da34$c87b6890$3900a8c0@amir> From: To: References: <200204020943.g329h6s20250@ns3.safety.net> Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:54:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > and D (a three-D first-person > polygon-based shooter, to demonstrate the speed of CHQRSFD9+ and improve its > embedded-systems appeal). I prefer Q for Quake. -- Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! lightstep (Amir Livne) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 13:16:16 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sLKf-000EuE-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:16:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:15:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sLKF-000Eu0-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:15:40 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:15:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [194.78.208.93] (helo=decis.be) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sLK8-000Etu-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:15:32 +0300 Received: from decis.be [192.168.0.20] by decis.be [194.78.208.93] with SMTP (MDaemon.v3.5.3.R) for ; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:05:18 +0200 Message-ID: <3CA985C4.D8953B13@decis.be> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 12:19:48 +0200 From: Frederic van der Plancke X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ References: <200204020943.g329h6s20250@ns3.safety.net> <010501c1da34$c87b6890$3900a8c0@amir> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.20 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk X-list: misc amirlb@myrealbox.com wrote: > > > and D (a three-D first-person > > polygon-based shooter, to demonstrate the speed of CHQRSFD9+ and improve > its > > embedded-systems appeal). > > I prefer Q for Quake. Then Q will simultaneously: - reproduce the program to output - spawn a game of Quake ...this will provide for strange, but legal, quine programs. May I propose operation A: A prints f(n,n) where f is the Ackermann function and n is the input seen as a natural number (through some obvious encoding). > > -- > Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! > lightstep (Amir Livne) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 13:26:18 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sLUI-000ExV-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:26:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:25:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sLU5-000ExH-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:25:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:25:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com ([192.108.102.143]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sLTx-000Ex9-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:25:41 +0300 Received: from amir amirlb@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.219.225.37] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.88 $ on Novell NetWare; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 03:25:36 -0700 Message-ID: <011d01c1da39$7c766710$3900a8c0@amir> From: To: References: <200204020943.g329h6s20250@ns3.safety.net> <010501c1da34$c87b6890$3900a8c0@amir> <3CA985C4.D8953B13@decis.be> Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:28:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > > I prefer Q for Quake. > > Then Q will simultaneously: > - reproduce the program to output > - spawn a game of Quake > > ...this will provide for strange, but legal, quine programs. Sounds a little like the Povray quine... -- Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! lightstep (Amir Livne) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 16:31:34 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sOMF-000Fe8-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:29:55 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:29:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sOLe-000Fdz-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:29:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:29:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sOLU-000Fdt-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:29:09 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.165 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:35:01 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] The Ruler language Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:26:48 +0100 Message-ID: <001201c1da4a$0b6d1da0$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <011d01c1da39$7c766710$3900a8c0@amir> Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc The Ruler programming language. Created by: David S. Moss [Black Flag] Version: 1.0 Date created: 28/03/2002 Ruler is a bit like BrainFuck. Like in BrainFuck, you have an array. Unlike BrainFuck, the array length is unlimited. The array is your ONLY real variable, the pointer to the loop iteration can be assigned to, but is reset every time a loop is entered. you can assign stuff to an array pointer and get the value of a point in the array at any time. You can also do some fairly advanced and extremely weird loop and arithmetical operations and the language is (almost, no negative numbers) Turing-complete. File I/O is done through pipes and re-routing in the command line and arguments: Linux/Unix.- % /personal/toys/lang/ruler/program.rlr < /input.text > /output.text DOS/Windro$$.- C:\> c:\moss\toys\lang\ruler\program.rlr < c:\input.txt > c:\output.txt The application is executed in a loop. when the end is reached, the beginning starts again with the array values as they were at the end of the previous run. To exit the program use @01 at the end. Instructions: -y read char from StdIn and put it into y ( y = StdIn.readChar(); ) _y read hex byte from StdIn and put it into y ( y = StdIn.readByte(); ) =xx print xx as char to StdOut ( printf(stringValueOf(xx)); ) #xx print xx as hex to StdOut ( printf(toHexString(xx)); ) @xx break/end/exit xx levels up. @01 exits current loop ( break; return; exit;) * get current array position ( get(array[position]); ) . get current loop iteration or 0 if used outside loop ( for(int i...){get(i);} ) >xx advance array by xx ( pointer = pointer + xx; ) To: sci@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [sci] Re: [representational power] referencing? Message-ID: <20020402140232.GB18501@treskal.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="kfjH4zxOES6UT95V" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Karl_Hasselstr=F6m?= X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: kalle@treskal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: sci X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: kalle@treskal.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --kfjH4zxOES6UT95V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 01:58:49PM +0200, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: >=20 > Now it is easy enough to do this in combinatory logic or pure lambda=20 > calculus, hence also with random-access architectures which have=20 > sufficient semantics for implementing such languages. It should be=20 > possible also on Turing machines, but I'm totally lost of how the numbers= =20 > should be represented. I can't even imagine, for example, how an arbitrar= y=20 > set of input (say the algorithm should produce a list of sums of the=20 > inputs with a probably-infinite list of inputs= =20 > should be represented on a TM with a finite set of symbols. Any ideas? >=20 The most general way to represent such a number should be to give a Turing-program that generates it (represented as input to some fixed universal Turing machine). --=20 Kalle Hasselstr=F6m, kalle@treskal.com www.treskal.com =20 --kfjH4zxOES6UT95V Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: För information se http://www.gnupg.org/ iD8DBQE8qbn4N7iPzXSoOQoRAsPPAJ9CGrRoxeXyJcDmR4W6xd8wsf9SugCfSNaF kSbuX8WYte94KFYaESU/r5Q= =/GJ9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --kfjH4zxOES6UT95V-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 17:21:30 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sPA3-000FxJ-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:21:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:21:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sP9l-000FxD-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:21:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:20:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sP9e-000Fx7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:20:58 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g32EKrr02156 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:20:53 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g32EKmm30912 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:20:48 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:20:48 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? In-Reply-To: <200204020940.g329eks20169@ns3.safety.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > > You seem to be entirely missing the fact that the HQ9+ language is a > > joke. > Depends on perspective; from what I can tell, I've written nearly as many > working pieces of software in HQ9+ as are available in, say, Malboge. I do, You picked a bad example: Malbolge is about as powerful as e (exclamation). (See, I have picked my standard for "weak".) Of course, as you say, it depends a lot on perspective whether a language is "serious" or not. But I'm not going to make guesses about Malbolge's "official" perspective: HQ9+'s "official" perspective seems to be quite humor-oriented. Maybe we should invent a humor tarpit. But humor is much of breaking of rules; and the more a language is a tarpit, the less there are rules to break. What to do? > after all, have a working Hello, World!, a quine, an implementation of > ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall, and in fact a recursive > Fibonacci-sequence generator (with optional language extension F). But you don't have "666", which is Malbolge's proof that you can do something with the language :) I actually like False's style: strings are not first-class and cannot be encoded anyhow but still magnificent programs have been written in the language, even without fiddling with amiga assembler / arrays. By the way: you will be able to implement "Qello world!" and "QQQ" in HQ9+. > Coming soon: > --Brainfuck! Mwa ha ha! (riiiiiight) Why not? (On the other hand, why would anybody bother?) I do admit the list is quite impressive... -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 17:27:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sPFc-000FzE-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:27:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:27:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sPFR-000Fz8-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:26:58 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:26:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sPFK-000Fz2-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:26:50 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g32EQnr04277 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:26:49 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g32EQib31865 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:26:44 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:26:43 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ In-Reply-To: <3CA985C4.D8953B13@decis.be> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Frederic van der Plancke wrote: > > I prefer Q for Quake. > Then Q will simultaneously: > - reproduce the program to output > - spawn a game of Quake > ...this will provide for strange, but legal, quine programs. This again brings the difficulty of what is to be considered "output" of the program. I did think a lot about side-effective quines when I wrote about quine classes, because eval-type quines can have as much of program code as they want to without it having to be duplicated. This gave me ideas of e.g. quines that print their source and run an IRC server, etc. > May I propose operation A: > A prints f(n,n) where f is the Ackermann function and n is the > input seen as a natural number (through some obvious encoding). RNG would also be nice. By the way, I vote for 3 as the "3D shoot-em-up instruction". -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 17:40:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sPRo-000G2F-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:39:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:39:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sPRC-000G29-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:39:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:38:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sPR5-000G23-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:38:59 +0300 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:57509 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[e5w8lbP1sniZF8MDa/hn2JoPt0PrGZq9]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:38:41 +0200 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:38:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Orjan Johansen To: Esoteric Languages List Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > This again brings the difficulty of what is to be considered "output" of > the program. I did think a lot about side-effective quines when I wrote > about quine classes, because eval-type quines can have as much of program > code as they want to without it having to be duplicated. This gave me > ideas of e.g. quines that print their source and run an IRC server, etc. This gave me an idea for another command: B: assimilates your computer. Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My Unlambda page: Latest contraption: Unlambda to Ocaml compiler. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 17:42:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sPUE-000G3Z-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:42:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:42:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sPU5-000G3N-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:42:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:41:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com ([192.108.102.143]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sPTx-000G3G-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:41:57 +0300 Received: from amir amirlb@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.219.225.37] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.88 $ on Novell NetWare; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 07:41:47 -0700 Message-ID: <015301c1da5d$45c7f2f0$3900a8c0@amir> From: To: References: Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:44:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > This again brings the difficulty of what is to be considered "output" of > the program. I did think a lot about side-effective quines when I wrote > about quine classes, because eval-type quines can have as much of program > code as they want to without it having to be duplicated. This gave me > ideas of e.g. quines that print their source and run an IRC server, etc. I wrote a quine (in C) that opens a gtk window, and shows its source within a viewer widget. Note that C doesn't have an eval instruction, so I did have to repeat the whole source twice. -- Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! lightstep (Amir Livne) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 17:49:26 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sPb8-000G92-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:49:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:49:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sPau-000G8w-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:49:08 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:49:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sPam-000G8q-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:49:00 +0300 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:60581 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[9uqCRZ5EMs47oaRJ3kxCbJ+nuCd6xiDs]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:48:54 +0200 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:48:53 +0200 (CEST) From: Orjan Johansen To: Esoteric Languages List Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > By the way: you will be able to implement "Qello world!" and "QQQ" in > HQ9+. This goes to show that HQ9+ is already bloated. Clearly Q should have been named H instead, saving one instruction. Also, 9 could be replaced with the more useful T, which uses the accumulator to determine which verse to print. It would also increment it, making + obsolete. This gives an alternative way of making quines, which are unfortunately now needed to produce "Hello world!". I hope some of these improvements will be considered in the next version. Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My Unlambda page: Latest contraption: Unlambda to Ocaml compiler. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 20:10:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sRo1-000HLS-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:10:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:10:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sRnb-000HLF-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:10:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:10:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg1.saix.net ([196.25.240.73]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sRnS-000HL9-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 20:10:15 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p108.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.108]) by ctb-mesg1.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g32HA5K11976 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:10:05 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <005701c1da68$78248dc0$6c81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: "EsoLang Lang" References: <20020401190524.19320.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: [lang] Re: New language: conser Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:20:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc WoWee !! Another interpreter written in Java - GO JAVA !! :-) Sorry, Perl/Python/etc !! What JDK version are you using ? Strange Point: Everytime a new language is announce on this mailinglist, someone follows with a written quine ! ;) -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 23:22:18 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sUmv-000HzM-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:21:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:21:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sUmH-000HzG-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:21:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:21:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sUm9-000HzA-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:21:06 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-216-67.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.216.67]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969D78A3D27 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:20:59 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CAA126A.629DF033@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:19:55 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ References: <20020402061038.53243.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Nikita Ayzikovsky wrote: > --- Orjan Johansen wrote: > > > I hereby declare the extended language CHQRS9+, probably reinventing the > > wheel: > > > > C = prints the entire input of the program to output. > > H = prints "Hello world!". > > Q = prints the program source. > > R = prints the input rot-13'ed. > > S = sorts the input lines and prints them. > > 9 = prints the text of "99 bottles of beer". > > + = increments the accumulator. > > I propose to add another instruction: > > I = interprets a CHQRS9+ program given in the input. Sounds a bit like my ACCIDENT language... Except that was a compiler. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 23:35:34 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sUzw-000I1M-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:35:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:35:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sUzm-000I1G-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:35:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:35:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sUzf-000I1A-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:35:03 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-216-67.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.216.67]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E4648A46A4 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:35:01 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CAA15B1.A0E89D11@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:33:54 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > By the way: you will be able to implement "Qello world!" and "QQQ" in > HQ9+. Only if characters not representing any instruction are ignored, rather than signalled as an error. Of course, we course define "e" as "comment until end of line", thereby solving this problem and also allowing for more readable programs... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Tue Apr 02 23:36:23 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sV0r-000I1m-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:36:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:36:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sV0j-000I1e-00; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:36:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:36:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sV0c-000I1Y-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:36:02 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-216-67.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.216.67]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E7A3772D for ; Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:36:00 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CAA15F2.BE1FD45D@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 22:34:58 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Orjan Johansen wrote: > Also, 9 could be replaced with the more useful T, which uses the > accumulator to determine which verse to print. It would also increment > it, making + obsolete. This gives an alternative way of making quines, > which are unfortunately now needed to produce "Hello world!". I don't understand. What would the "T" character exactly do and why does it have that letter? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 04:48:20 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sZsG-000Isf-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 04:47:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 04:47:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sZrL-000IsZ-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 04:46:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 04:46:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web12904.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.174.71]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sZrD-000IsT-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 04:46:39 +0300 Message-ID: <20020403014632.48501.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.78.145.92] by web12904.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:46:32 PST Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:46:32 -0800 (PST) From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: order_of_may@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: order_of_may@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --- Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > By the way, I vote for 3 as the "3D shoot-em-up > instruction". Why tie ourselves to 3D ? I propose instructions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 that launch a first-person polygon-based shooter in the correspondent number of dimensions. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 05:06:09 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sa9x-000Iui-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:06:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:05:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sa9f-000Iuc-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:05:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:05:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web21402.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.232.72]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sa9W-000IuW-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:05:35 +0300 Message-ID: <20020403020527.60919.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.120.209.42] by web21402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 18:05:27 PST Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:05:27 -0800 (PST) From: Quowong Liu Subject: [lang] Re: New language: conser To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <005701c1da68$78248dc0$6c81ef9b@lennie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: qpliu@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: qpliu@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc "D De Villiers" writes, >WoWee !! Another interpreter written in Java - GO JAVA !! :-) Sorry, >Perl/Python/etc !! Actually, I don't think java is a very good choice. For one thing, a language that supported continuation passing would be much nicer. This was a weekend hack just to have something to play with, and since I use java for work, I'm familiar enough with it to make something quickly. I'm thinking OCaml for a more serious implementation, which would probably become a work in progress yet of very little progress for years to come. >What JDK version are you using ? I used 1.4, but 1.2 or later should work. >Strange Point: Everytime a new language is announce on this mailinglist, >someone follows with a written quine ! ;) I'd imagine a quine would take centuries and terabytes to run. However, here's a brainfuck interpreter. The interpreter in java can't run it, since, besides the interpreter being crap, this code uses infinite lists. "Brainfuck interpreter in conser. Completely untested. Would take forever to run. If a program tries to read more input than is available, strange things will probably happen." "program is a list of brainfuck instructions io is a pair, the car being list of numbers that is the input, and the cdr should be empty the result is a pair, with the car being the unconsumed input, and the cdr being a list of numbers that is the output in reverse order. The numbers in the input list have to be in the set of valid-numbers: valid-numbers = (generate+(,)generate-(,)). generate+ a = (a generate+(a,)). generate- a = (a generate-(,a)). The lists have to be valid lists, which means < (car), <> (cadr), <>> (caddr), and so on until the end of the list have to be single element sets." brainfuck program io = bf (program,) (zeros,zeros) io. bf program data io = (?(io))) comma-intp(insn!dot-instr)program data io). comma-intp insn program data io = (?((insn!comma-instr),bf ++p program ((<data)(<io)) [-intp(insn!comma-instr)program data io). [-intp insn program data io = (?((insn![-instr),bf [-move program <p)). --p p = ((<>p,>p). ++*p p = ((++<p). --*p p = ((--<p). ++ a = (?(>a,(a,))>a). -- a = (?(a!2a). 2 a b = b. zeros = ((,),zeros). >-- > >Lennie De Villiers > >PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ >e (Exclamation) Programming Language: >http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 05:10:23 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16saEA-000Iw9-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:10:22 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:10:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16saE2-000Iw3-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:10:14 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:10:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web21401.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.232.71]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16saDu-000Ivx-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:10:06 +0300 Message-ID: <20020403021000.29566.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.120.209.42] by web21401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 18:10:00 PST Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:10:00 -0800 (PST) From: Quowong Liu Subject: [lang] Re: New language: conser To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: qpliu@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: qpliu@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Ben Rudiak-Gould writes, >Here's a suggestion for solving the problem of astronomical running times >for nontrivial I/O: instead of encoding the input and output as integers, >encode them as binary fractions, so "Hello, World!" would be something >like 0.0100100001100101011011000110110001101111001011000010000001010- >11101101111011100100110110001100100001000010000101. The surreals are >effectively unary for integers but binary for fractions, so an O(log n) >representation (and processing time) for the fractions should be possible, >I think. Also, you might be able to lazify it, at least for input. You That's a great idea. I'll steal it for my revised description. >would have the same problem with zero bytes in the input/output (except at >the end instead of the beginning), and it could be solved by the same >kluge. >-- Ben __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 05:17:20 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16saKr-000J05-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:17:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:17:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16saKh-000Izz-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:17:07 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:17:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web21409.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.232.79]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16saKY-000Izt-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 05:16:59 +0300 Message-ID: <20020403021651.68862.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.120.209.42] by web21409.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Apr 2002 18:16:51 PST Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:16:51 -0800 (PST) From: Quowong Liu Subject: [lang] Re: New language: conser To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: qpliu@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: qpliu@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski writes, >Anyway, I'm not totally clear about the semantics of the language. For >example, does (a,b) form a set with one element, the pair of a and b? Is >(A) always the same as A? What do you mean by consing with respect to sets >- adding one element to the set? What does (a,) put in the cdr? The empty >set? I hope to be revising my description to make it clearer. (a,b) is a one element set. I've been sloppily calling one element sets a pair, a number, or a list, depending on the context. I'm pretty sure (A) is always the same as A, if A is a single expression. A cons always make a pair out of two sets. A union is used to add an element to a set. (a,) puts the empty set in the cdr. >On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Quowong Liu wrote: >> argument, the argument is 1 appended with the contents of stdin, >> encoded as a surreal number. The result of evaluating main, if it is > >Does the 1 come first or do the contents of stdin come first? I guess from >your example programs that a surreal number n+1 is a set of one element, a >pair (n,). Is this so? The 1 becomes the most significant bit, with stdin providing the rest of the bits. However, Ben Rudiak-Gould's idea of using fractions is a better idea. n+1 is (n,) if n is a nonnegative integer. But there are lots of ways to represent a surreal number. For example: 1 = (0,), but also 1 = (-1 0,2 4). A google search on surreal numbers gives lots of pages. http://www.tondering.dk/claus/surreal.html is a good introduction. I first read about surreal numbers some years ago in Knuth's story, _Surreal Numbers_, which is a fun way to learn about them. >> Predefined functions: >> < is car. >> > is cdr. >> (,) is cons. >> () is union. >> (&) is intersection. >> (!) is set subtraction. > >What are the semantics of these? Could you give some examples of what >arguments yield what result? > >If I guess correctly, car returns the union of first elements of the pairs >of a set, whereas cdr returns the union of second elements of the pairs of >a set. Is this so? That's correct. < ((a,b) (c,d)) = (a c). > ((a,b) (c,d)) = (b d). cons always returns a single element set. (a b a) = (a b). (a b & b) = ((a&b) b). (a & a b) = a. (a b ! b) = (a!b). (a ! a b) = (). >> Since there are no higher-order functions, there is no need to >> explicitly specify precedence, so there is no way to do so. > >Doesn't a unit union provide a way to explicitly define precedence anyway? Since f f a and f (f a) are equivalent, it could be looked at that way. But (f f) a is illegal. >> Some things to note: >> <(a b) is equivalent to (> ((a b)) is equivalent to (a b). >> ((a b) c) is equivalent to (a b c). >> f (a b) c is equivalent to (f a c f b c). >> f (a b) (c d) is equivalent to (f a c f a d f b c f b d). >> f () is always (). >> f () a is always (). >> f a () is always (). > >Okay, now this seems to play a central role in really defining what the >language does. Functions seem to have a set-unwinding nature - I guess >they then receive sets of one element as arguments? Yes. Doing it that way makes the definitions of surreal addition and multiplication work. >> Should conser programs be lazily evaluated? >> >> If, when forcing f a b, if a evaluates to (), then f a b = () and b >> never needs to be evaluated. However, if a never terminates, and b >> would evaluate to (), then, if the order of evaluation is left to right, >> f a b would never terminate, even if b evaluates to (). If the >> evaluation of a and b are done in parallel, then f a b = () if either a >> or b is (). > >I think parallel evaluation would be natural anyway, because you need >exactly one element of each set to be able to call f at all. This will, of >course, require lazy sets - which might be some trouble to implement. > >> Still, with lazy evaluation, >> (finite-set & infinite-set) either is finite-set or doesn't terminate >> (finite-set ! infinite-set) either is () or doesn't terminate > >Of course. But with a lazy implementation of sets, you can make the >expression terminate in every case where it is possible to terminate at >all. Actually, I think the language could get some very interesting >features if made lazy. Then lazy evaluation with parallel evaluation of arguments when forced will be the way to go. >-- > >Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh >atehwa@iki.fi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 13:37:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16si8W-000NLG-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 13:37:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 13:36:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16si7q-000NJV-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 13:36:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 13:36:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from wells.tecc.co.uk ([195.217.37.90]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16si7f-000NJH-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 13:36:11 +0300 Received: from basingstoke.tecc.co.uk (basingstoke.tecc.co.uk [195.217.37.75]) by wells.tecc.co.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16439 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:36:05 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:36:05 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <200204031036.LAA16439@wells.tecc.co.uk> From: Mike Taylor To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-reply-to: <001201c1da4a$0b6d1da0$a500000a@td165> (dmoss@tdsi.co.uk) Subject: [lang] Re: The Ruler language References: <001201c1da4a$0b6d1da0$a500000a@td165> X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@tecc.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@tecc.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:26:48 +0100 > From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk > > The Ruler programming language. > > Created by: David S. Moss [Black Flag] > Version: 1.0 > Date created: 28/03/2002 > > Ruler is a bit like BrainFuck. > [...] Not to be negative, but -- Here we are on a list that has _a lot_ of new languages. We have jaded palates. To get our attention, a programming lnaguage has to show us something truly interesting, like Kayak's reversibility. Now Ruler may be wonderful for all I know, but I found it hard to motivate myself to read past "Rule is a bit like BrainF*ck". I find myself thinking, how many more BrainF*ck-like languages do we need? My point is a marketing one, not a technical one. Why don't you kick off not by telling us what your language is like ("C++ is a bit like C") but what's different and special about it ("C++ provides class, objects and templates")? In other words: give us a reason to _care_ about your language. Hope that helps. _/|_ _______________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "Give me the truth, but don't shove it up my ass" -- Michael T. Huyck Jr. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 14:50:59 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sjHq-0000tT-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:50:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:50:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sjHJ-0000sA-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:50:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:50:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sjHC-0000rx-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:50:06 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g33Bo4r15410 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:50:05 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g33Bo0213483 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:50:00 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:50:00 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: [meta] about new languages In-Reply-To: <200204031036.LAA16439@wells.tecc.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Mike Taylor wrote: > Here we are on a list that has _a lot_ of new languages. We have > jaded palates. To get our attention, a programming lnaguage has to > show us something truly interesting, like Kayak's reversibility. I think it is a little bit too bold to speak of "us" so collectively. I have certainly noticed huge variations in what different people consider "interesting" (even though the list currently has members that will call brainfuck-with-changing-instructions esoteric (and would probably call MaD5 esoteric as well), there are also _real_ differences of preference). Thus I've come to the opinion that language announcements are always welcome - they are less than 5% of the list's total traffic - and that criticising languages for lack of originality is waste of time, as every language will attract those that are interested in it. If there are no such people, what's wrong with that? It is a different thing to start bombing the list with superfluous messages all the time, when nobody seems to show any interest. Compared to recent discussions on lang (I'd like to remind people to switch a little bit more often over to chat) the language has nothing to be shamed of. > Now Ruler may be wonderful for all I know, but I found it hard to > motivate myself to read past "Rule is a bit like BrainF*ck". I find > myself thinking, how many more BrainF*ck-like languages do we need? Brainfuck might be useful as a explanation vehicle. Because brainfuck is a model of some generality, it is indeed hard to avoid making any new brainfuck-like languages. Apparently, you did not read past that point, because the language is more akin to dc than it is to brainfuck. I didn't read it all, either (yet) - the language is such a mess. > In other words: give us a reason to _care_ about your language. I agree with this, but I think it is nobody's business to tell someone that he is not making her care. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I agree also that there have been so much new languages recently that it's hard to pay attention to every one. But you can't blame a language of being released at a time when lots of other languages are. There have been times on the list when every new language was welcome :) I hope they are not over. I do agree that more effort could be put to elaborating languages instead of designing new ones - but usage of intellectual resources is everybody's personal decision. -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 14:51:34 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sjIX-0000vL-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:51:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:51:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sjIO-0000uo-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:51:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:51:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sjIB-0000uH-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:51:10 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.165 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:48:36 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] Re: The Ruler language Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:48:28 +0100 Message-ID: <000f01c1db05$7a2c5650$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200204031036.LAA16439@wells.tecc.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > In other words: give us a reason to _care_ about your language. You don't have to care about it, I just posted it there because I wanted to know if someone was interested in writing a quine or an interpreter. The reason I made it is that I just thought BF with functions and some weird loop extensions would be fun, so I thought out Ruler. In fact, more thought went into the name than the actual language because I wanted something ambiguous enough. If you want a reason to care look at the if() statement. it evaluates pairs/odds, that means that while you can be sure that an expression will be executed, you can only be 50% sure that an expression won't! I leave it to you to figure out why. Apart from that its just my toy... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 15:25:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sjoz-0002bU-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:25:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:24:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sjoc-0002aJ-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:24:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:24:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from wells.tecc.co.uk ([195.217.37.90]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sjoV-0002a5-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 15:24:31 +0300 Received: from basingstoke.tecc.co.uk (basingstoke.tecc.co.uk [195.217.37.75]) by wells.tecc.co.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17453 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:24:29 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 13:24:29 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <200204031224.NAA17453@wells.tecc.co.uk> From: Mike Taylor To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-reply-to: (message from Panu A Kalliokoski on Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:50:00 +0300 (EEST)) Subject: [lang] Re: [meta] about new languages References: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@tecc.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mike@tecc.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:50:00 +0300 (EEST) > From: Panu A Kalliokoski > > > Here we are on a list that has _a lot_ of new languages. We have > > jaded palates. To get our attention, a programming lnaguage has > > to show us something truly interesting, like Kayak's > > reversibility. > > I think it is a little bit too bold to speak of "us" so collectively. Granted. Please excuse the use of the Royal "we" :-) > > Now Ruler may be wonderful for all I know, but I found it hard to > > motivate myself to read past "Rule is a bit like BrainF*ck". I > > find myself thinking, how many more BrainF*ck-like languages do we > > need? > > I agree also that there have been so much new languages recently > that it's hard to pay attention to every one. But you can't blame a > language of being released at a time when lots of other languages > are. No indeed -- but that's why presentation of new languages is even more important now than previously. I really am not _in any way_ criticising the new language -- I have nothing good or bad to say about it -- just asking the author to consider kicking off the description with something a little more sensational than "It's a bit like BF". (Which has happened now: thanks for the pointer to the indeterminate "if".) > Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh Qu'est-ce que c'est? _/|_ _______________________________________________________________ /o ) \/ Mike Taylor www.miketaylor.org.uk )_v__/\ "The governor cannot stand intolerance" -- John Wodele, Governor Ventura's spokesman. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 16:03:00 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skPG-0004TV-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:02:30 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:02:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skOp-0004S4-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:02:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:01:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skOi-0004Rs-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:01:56 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g33D1nr09261 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:01:50 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g33D1i720930 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:01:44 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:01:44 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: New language: conser In-Reply-To: <20020403021651.68862.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Quowong Liu wrote: > The 1 becomes the most significant bit, with stdin providing the rest > of the bits. However, Ben Rudiak-Gould's idea of using fractions is a > better idea. Does somebody actually have an idea of how computationally heavy surreal fractions are? They do seem to be very heavy, unless one keeps them small by eliminating non-maximal numbers from the left and non-minimal from the right. > A google search on surreal numbers gives lots of pages. > http://www.tondering.dk/claus/surreal.html is a good introduction. Yes. It seems most of the language is built for surreal numbers and the mathematical theory around them, so my not being familiar with them explains why I didn't think of the definitions as self-evident. It clearly is not a pairing function tarpit, but it might be a surreal number tarpit... These surreal numbers sure are interesting, though they seem to be quite equivalent to real numbers - the infinities excluded. Are all kinds of infinities definable with surreal numbers? aleph(aleph 0)? > (a b & b) = ((a&b) b). = b? > Then lazy evaluation with parallel evaluation of arguments when > forced will be the way to go. Yes. It just leaves the problem of efficient implementation of lazy sets... ordered data structures are bad, they require calculating all elements to be able to extract the first one. Maybe a structure with a lazy "element producer", and strictly-evaluated exclusion and condition lists... and then it is crucial for the operation of these to flatten the structure as much as possible... (Just thinking aloud) Panu From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 16:03:12 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skPu-0004Vk-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:03:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:03:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skPI-0004Tk-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:02:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:02:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skPB-0004TX-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:02:25 +0300 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:51368 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[FVI4k+Qp2GFIapM2pHyX4vhm2cu7fKzR]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:02:12 +0200 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:02:12 +0200 (CEST) From: Orjan Johansen To: Esoteric Languages List Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? In-Reply-To: <3CAA15F2.BE1FD45D@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > Orjan Johansen wrote: > > > Also, 9 could be replaced with the more useful T, which uses the > > accumulator to determine which verse to print. It would also increment > > it, making + obsolete. This gives an alternative way of making quines, > > which are unfortunately now needed to produce "Hello world!". > > I don't understand. What would the "T" character exactly do and why does= it > have that letter? My apologies, I had somehow gotten the impression that HQ9+ required upper-case commands. Now I see that the reference implementation even requires lower case. So my idea does not work. Here is what it would have looked like: exception OutOfBeer ;; let accumulator =3D ref 1 ;; let accumulate () =3D incr accumulator ;; let t () =3D begin match 100-!accumulator with | 0 -> raise OutOfBeer | 1 -> print_endline "1 bottle of beer on the wall"; print_endline "1 bottle of beer"; print_endline "Take one down and pass it around"; print_endline "No bottles of beer on the wall" | n -> print_int n; print_endline " bottles of beer on the wall"; print_int n; print_endline " bottles of beer"; print_endline "Take one down and pass it around"; print_int (n - 1); print_endline " bottles of beer on the wall"; print_newline (); beer (n - 1) end; accumulate () ;; Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My Unlambda page: Latest contraption: Unlambda to Ocaml compiler. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 16:11:37 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skY0-0004cU-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:11:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:11:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skXs-0004cO-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:11:24 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:11:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skXq-0004cI-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:11:22 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g33DBEr11561 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:11:17 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g33DB8I21348 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:11:08 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:11:08 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Re: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Orjan Johansen wrote: > let t () = > begin match 100-!accumulator with > | 0 -> > raise OutOfBeer I had a similar idea, though unifying the concept of accumulator totally with that of bottles of beer on the wall, so that singing a verse becomes a natural decrementation operation. (You see, they drink one off.) Also, given that somebody already came up with the idea of zen beer, I think zero behavior should be: No bottles of beer on the wall, no bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, no bottles of beer on the wall. This way, with only two instructions, you are able to sing "zen beer", "nine bottles of beer" and "99 bottles of beer". -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 16:13:38 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ska0-0004fU-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:13:36 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:13:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skZn-0004fK-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:13:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:13:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skZg-0004fE-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:13:16 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g33DDFr11904 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:13:15 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g33DDAH21522 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:13:10 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 16:13:10 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: New language: conser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > These surreal numbers sure are interesting, though they seem to be quite > equivalent to real numbers - the infinities excluded. Are all kinds of Especially the infinitesimals: I though it is the _definition_ of real numbers that whatever cutting point you choose on the real line, it is always part of the real line. How on earth could there be an infinitesimal between a real number and its surrounding real numbers? -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 16:18:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skf5-0004hN-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:18:51 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:18:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skes-0004hG-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:18:38 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:18:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skel-0004hA-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:18:31 +0300 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:57000 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[TsUoUvtdfe7GoZJW1J4JSnTL2qZnyVL+]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:18:25 +0200 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:18:24 +0200 (CEST) From: Orjan Johansen To: Esoteric Languages List Subject: [lang] Re: New language: conser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > These surreal numbers sure are interesting, though they seem to be quite > equivalent to real numbers - the infinities excluded. Are all kinds of > infinities definable with surreal numbers? aleph(aleph 0)? Yes. Any ordinal number may represented as the pair whose cdr is empty and whose car is the set of all smaller ordinal numbers. Ignoring all cdrs, this is of course parallel to the von Neumann representation of an ordinal number as the set of all smaller ones. Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My Unlambda page: Latest contraption: Unlambda to Ocaml compiler. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 16:22:42 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skim-0004jV-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:22:40 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:22:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skia-0004jP-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:22:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:22:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from tdsiaccess.demon.co.uk ([158.152.60.40] helo=mailhost.tdsi.co.uk) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skiT-0004jJ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:22:21 +0300 Received: from 10.0.0.165 by mailhost.tdsi.co.uk ([10.0.0.230] running VPOP3) with SMTP for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:20:06 +0100 From: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk To: Subject: [lang] Re: [meta] about new languages Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:19:59 +0100 Message-ID: <001001c1db12$4205dfa0$a500000a@td165> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200204031224.NAA17453@wells.tecc.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-Server: VPOP3 V1.5.0a - Registered X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: dmoss@tdsi.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > just asking the author to consider kicking off the > description with something a little more sensational than "It's a bit > like BF". (Which has happened now: thanks for the pointer to the > indeterminate "if".) Its just that I like to compare stuff with what I already got because it makes it easier for me to get into. Its like saying JavaScript is a bit like C. They have not got much in common, but the look and feel is similar, so the comparison is valid. In the case of Ruler, the only similitude to BF is the array variable, apart from that... well... and Ruler can be written like BF (sort of) same as JavaScript can be written like C (sort of). David. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 16:34:21 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sktw-0004my-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:34:12 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:34:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16skto-0004ms-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:34:04 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list sci); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:34:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sktm-0004mk-00 for sci@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:34:02 +0300 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:65448 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[JnZfZMb+JI5jYC8oPwdPAhZzrgzp3/hg]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:33:46 +0200 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 15:33:46 +0200 (CEST) From: Orjan Johansen To: sci@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [sci] Re: [lang] Re: New language: conser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: sci X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > > These surreal numbers sure are interesting, though they seem to be quit= e > > equivalent to real numbers - the infinities excluded. Are all kinds of > > Especially the infinitesimals: I though it is the _definition_ of real > numbers that whatever cutting point you choose on the real line, it is > always part of the real line. How on earth could there be an infinitesima= l > between a real number and its surrounding real numbers? A pair is always interpreted as the simplest surreal number strictly larger than all its left elements and strictly smaller than all its right elements. If you cut the real line then one of the parts will have an end point. However, when interpreted as a surreal number the cut is not that end point, but rather the simplest infinitesimal between the end point and the other cut part. However if you remove the end point from the cut, then you get a surreal number representing the removed end point, because now that end point fulfills the requirement that it is larger than all the left elements and smaller than all the right elements. Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My Unlambda page: Latest contraption: Unlambda to Ocaml compiler. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 18:38:17 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16smpU-0005Cu-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:37:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:37:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16smp9-0005Co-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:37:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:37:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from dark.darkweb.com ([216.163.74.170]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16smoy-0005Ci-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 18:37:12 +0300 Received: from localhost (benrg@localhost) by dark.darkweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12275 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:37:22 -0800 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 07:37:22 -0800 (PST) From: Ben Rudiak-Gould To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] conser in Haskell In-Reply-To: <20020403020527.60919.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-1546081718-139754974-1017845871=:4944" Content-ID: X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: benrg@dark.darkweb.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ---1546081718-139754974-1017845871=:4944 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: Attached is a Haskell implementation of conser. It reads source code from standard input. Memoization is not implemented, nor is stream I/O. The main function is always called with no arguments, and its return value(s) are printed as conser expressions. Declaring a main function which takes one or more arguments and refers to any of them will result in an unhelpful runtime error. Believe it or not this is my first Haskell program, so I would appreciate style critiques from more experienced Haskell coders (by private email). I have to say that my first impression was very positive: I never had to debug any part of my program because (seemingly) every error I made was caught by the type system. This is a refreshing change from Lazier, which isn't even dynamically typed. :-) The precompiled Win32 executable is about 80K gzipped. I will email it to anyone who (for some unfathomable reason) wants to run it. -- Ben ---1546081718-139754974-1017845871=:4944 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; name="conser.hs" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="conser.hs" LS0gSW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb24gb2YgUXVvd29uZyBMaXUncyBlc290ZXJpYyBs YW5ndWFnZSAiY29uc2VyIiBpbiBIYXNrZWxsIDk4Lg0KLS0gVmVyc2lvbiAw LjAuIENvcHlyaWdodCAyMDAyIEJlbiBSdWRpYWstR291bGQuIFJlbGVhc2Vk IHVuZGVyIHRoZSBHUEwuDQoNCg0KaW1wb3J0IExpc3QNCmltcG9ydCBDaGFy DQoNCg0KbWFpbiA9IGludGVyYWN0IGNvbnNlcg0KDQpjb25zZXIgPSBkZWNv ZGVPdXRwdXQgLiBydW4gLiBjb21waWxlIC4gZnVuY3Rpb25TcGxpdCAuIHRv a2VuaXplDQoNCg0Key09LT0tPS09LT0tPS09LT0tPS09LT0tPS09LT0tPS09 LT0tPS09LT0tPS09LT0tPS09LT0tPS09LT0tfQ0KDQpkYXRhIFBhaXIgPSBQ YWlyIFNldCBTZXQgICBkZXJpdmluZyAoRXEsIFNob3cpDQoNCnR5cGUgU2V0 ID0gW1BhaXJdDQoNCnstPS09LT0tPS09LT0tPS09LT0tPS09LT0tPS09LT0t PS09LT0tPS09LT0tPS09LT0tPS09LT0tPS09LX0NCg0Kb3BDYXIgICA9ICc8 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misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:09:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soFg-0005QK-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soFW-0005Ps-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:43 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p107.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.107]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g33H8YT24627 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:08:35 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <014101c1db31$694b2f60$6b81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:32:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Orjan Johansen, > On the other hand, it might be a useful preliminary test of the power of > other programming languages to see whether they can implement HQ9+. Yes! There is many possibilities of improving HQ9+, by just adding some exstra instructions etc. > I hereby declare the extended language CHQRS9+, probably reinventing the > wheel: > C = prints the entire input of the program to output. > H = prints "Hello world!". > Q = prints the program source. > R = prints the input rot-13'ed. > S = sorts the input lines and prints them. > 9 = prints the text of "99 bottles of beer". > + = increments the accumulator. Very Nice !!! :) Did you wrote an interpreter for CHQRS9+ ? -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 20:09:30 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soG6-0005Qp-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:09:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:09:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soFg-0005QF-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:52 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soFW-0005Pr-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:43 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p107.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.107]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g33H8WT24614 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:08:33 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <014001c1db31$68a4dd40$6b81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <20020402061038.53243.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:28:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Nikita Ayzikovsky, > I propose to add another instruction: > > I = interprets a CHQRS9+ program given in the input. Nice Idea !!! :) This will improve modular programming (eg. like units in Pascal, classes in Java etc). -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 20:09:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soG6-0005Qq-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:09:18 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:09:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soFh-0005QL-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soFX-0005Pt-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:43 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p107.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.107]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g33H8cT24658 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:08:38 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <014401c1db31$6b644b60$6b81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <004901c1d963$95d5efe0$1d81ef9b@lennie> <20020401212648.GD1101@twcny.rr.com> <200204020940.g329eks20169@ns3.safety.net> Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:45:47 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Cliff L. Biffle, > Depends on perspective; from what I can tell, I've written nearly as many > working pieces of software in HQ9+ as are available in, say, Malboge. I do, > after all, have a working Hello, World!, a quine, an implementation of > ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall, and in fact a recursive > Fibonacci-sequence generator (with optional language extension F). This is true !! :) > I have working implementations in the following languages, actually. > --Java > --ANSI C > --TI-92 calculator C > --TI-BASIC > --Visual Basic > --TRS-80 BASIC (model 100) > --Perl > --Ruby > --PHP Can you please send me all these working implementations - Only for my own interest mind ! :-) -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 20:09:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soG7-0005Qt-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:09:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:09:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soFi-0005QP-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soFZ-0005Pv-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:46 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p107.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.107]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g33H8bT24650 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:08:37 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <014301c1db31$6ac59a60$6b81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <004901c1d963$95d5efe0$1d81ef9b@lennie> <20020401212648.GD1101@twcny.rr.com> Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:41:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Rob Speer, > You don't, and there is no purpose. > > You seem to be entirely missing the fact that the HQ9+ language is a > joke. There is no need to actually implement it, though the fact that > someone already did (in Ocaml) gives it a sort of completeness. Hahaha !! :) Hey, a joke! I want to implement HQ9+ just for my own jokeness :) Everything have a goal/purpose but the "+" instruction !! Futher HQ9+ isn't turing-complete !!! -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 20:09:32 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soG7-0005Qu-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:09:20 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:09:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soFi-0005QQ-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16soFZ-0005Pu-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 20:08:45 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p107.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.107]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g33H8aT24640 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:08:36 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <014201c1db31$69f30820$6b81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <20020401102055.31021.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:38:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Nikita Ayzikovsky, > > ?? Every math sum must have an answer and what would that be - doing maths > > without getting the answer! > If you don't get the answer, it doesn't mean the answer doesn't exist :) O'Boy !! We can "fight" about this for days (even years)... Yes! The answer does exist - even like "2 + 2 = 4" it does exist, but whats the use of doing maths if you don't provide the user (or the programmer) with the answer/result ?? The only way that someone can know the answer is if they see it on the PC's screen ! In HQ9+ the programmer must first check the code to find the answer (counting how many "+" instructions there is) because the interpeter wouldn't display the code (no HQ9+ language instruction to do so). I leave my case !! $$ -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 22:08:43 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sq7N-0005nc-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:08:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:08:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sq6n-0005nW-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:07:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:07:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sq6f-0005nQ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:07:41 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-239-181.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.239.181]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C0FF37214 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:07:31 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CAB52D6.67399DBE@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 21:07:02 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? References: <20020401102055.31021.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> <014201c1db31$69f30820$6b81ef9b@lennie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc D De Villiers wrote: > Nikita Ayzikovsky, > > > > ?? Every math sum must have an answer and what would that be - doing > maths > > > without getting the answer! > > If you don't get the answer, it doesn't mean the answer doesn't exist :) > > O'Boy !! We can "fight" about this for days (even years)... Yes! The answer > does exist - even like "2 + 2 = 4" it does exist, but whats the use of doing > maths if you don't provide the user (or the programmer) with the > answer/result ?? The only way that someone can know the answer is if they > see it on the PC's screen ! You could always intercept the program with a debugger and read the data out of it... Even Turing's machine works like this, so why can't HQ9+? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 22:23:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqLd-0005s4-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:23:09 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:22:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqLI-0005rv-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:22:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:22:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rama.poly.edu ([128.238.10.212]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqLB-0005ro-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:22:41 +0300 Received: (qmail 7589 invoked by uid 20150); 3 Apr 2002 19:22:01 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:22:01 -0500 (EST) From: John Colagioia X-Sender: jcolag@rama To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? In-Reply-To: <3CAB52D6.67399DBE@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > D De Villiers wrote: > > O'Boy !! We can "fight" about this for days (even years)... Yes! The answer > > does exist - even like "2 + 2 = 4" it does exist, but whats the use of doing > > maths if you don't provide the user (or the programmer) with the > > answer/result ?? The only way that someone can know the answer is if they > > see it on the PC's screen ! > You could always intercept the program with a debugger and read the data out of > it... Even Turing's machine works like this, so why can't HQ9+? In case anyone's curious, here is roughly how I present I/O in my Programming Languages course. Most people are pretty much satisfied with it: a) Commanded Communications: An explicit instruction either dumps data to the outside world or gets data from some outside source. This is the most like a typical imperative assignment statement described above, where I/O can be handled by either a command or an operation, which in the latter case must have a precedence, associativity, and so on. This is probably the most typical approach to I/O, starting at the machine level. b) Communication Exposures: The users of the program (and any peripherals) are treated as programmatic objects, like rules or variables. All communications, therefore, are treated as any other value access or transfer, transparent to the programmer, except for a special name. This is probably the most natural form of communications, since the programmer already understands it, but is only infrequently used (C++ is possibly the closest common language to this), though it would be the easiest to integrate into many imperative languages. c) Event-Driven Communications: User input triggers a special condition in the program. Output occurs by filling a shared buffer somewhere in the variablespace (not unlike the exposures described above), and then triggering an event in the I/O module. Examples of event-driven communications systems include very low-level affairs, such as typical PC BIOS, but very few high-level languages. While very few languages support this approach, it is frequently used by some programmers to marshall I/O amongst threads in a multithreaded application. d) Omniscient-View Communications: Such a language has no explicit mechanism for I/O, but rather allows an external process (or user) to access certain memory areas. Note that the level of Omniscience may not be complete or consistent. Particular languages may change the view so that only particular elements are seen at any particular time. This is usually appears to the programmer (and possibly the user) as something of a .cheat. or .hack,. because it often forces the programmer to expose more internal information to the user than the programmer (or user, for that matter) would prefer. Prolog, for example, prints every value it finds when it attempts a match, giving the user the choice to continue at each step. Similarly, when Turing Machines are discussed, it is assumed that I/O occurs by a user examining and/or modifying the tape when necessary. Note the difference between this and Exposures, above.which simply permit interested parties to examine the necessary data.and Command- and Event-based I/O systems, where the programmer must specify every nuance of the communications protocol. The thing to note is that, no different from programming paradigms, each of these "communications paradigms" can be used to simulate any of the others, but they are each (as far as I can tell) disjoint enough so that they can be easily identified (somewhat unlike programming paradigms). Oh, and Chris didn't like this, as I recall, because he wanted batch processing represented. I insisted (and still insist) that batch is a "less powerful" form of I/O, as any of these approaches can be used in a batch, but the emulation cannot be done in the other direction. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 22:25:58 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqOL-0005tW-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:25:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:25:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqOC-0005tK-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:25:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:25:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rama.poly.edu ([128.238.10.212]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqO5-0005tE-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:25:41 +0300 Received: (qmail 8480 invoked by uid 20150); 3 Apr 2002 19:25:03 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 14:25:03 -0500 (EST) From: John Colagioia X-Sender: jcolag@rama To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Wherefore Art Thou Essie? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Uhm...sorry 'bout the subject. It's been one of those days. Anyway, there'll (obviously?) be a brief delay in the Essie judging. It seems that everyone's having trouble getting through the entries (this may be good or bad--we'll know when we're done), and so debate hasn't yet begun. Plus, I think Markus said he would be away for a few days, which slows the process a bit further. What's IBM's catchphrase? "Real Soon Now"? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 22:37:50 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqZi-0005vO-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:37:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:37:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqZY-0005vH-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:37:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:37:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com ([192.108.102.143]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqZR-0005vB-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:37:25 +0300 Received: from amir amirlb@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [62.219.227.43] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with Novell NIMS $Revision: 2.88 $ on Novell NetWare; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:37:13 -0700 Message-ID: <004301c1db4f$b3b816d0$3900a8c0@amir> From: To: References: <20020401190524.19320.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: [lang] [conser] Some clarifications Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:51:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: amirlb@myrealbox.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc There are a few points that I am not sure about: 1. I have the impression that functions get sets as their arguments and return sets, so every expression you can form is a set. But the elements of these sets cannot be sets, but only pairs of sets (of pairs, recursively ever after). Am I right? 2. Do functions always get one-element sets as their parameter? 3. I also understand that there is not precedence at all, and that the set-expressions are evaluated from left to right. 4. About your examples: "? a = (>a!2a).". From what I understand, this gives you (>a)-(2a), which is (>a)-(>a), which is (). It doesn't seem right. 5. What happens if you pass a malformed Surreal number to the output? I hope that you will answer these questions, your language seems so nice. -- Bad spellers of the world UNTIE! lightstep (Amir Livne) From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 23:03:04 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqyE-00067R-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:03:02 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:02:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqxz-000672-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:02:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:02:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqxr-00066w-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:02:39 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-234-38.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.234.38]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77FEA3709C for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:02:37 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CAB5745.D533942E@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 21:25:57 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: New language: conser References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > > These surreal numbers sure are interesting, though they seem to be quite > > equivalent to real numbers - the infinities excluded. Are all kinds of > > Especially the infinitesimals: I though it is the _definition_ of real > numbers that whatever cutting point you choose on the real line, it is > always part of the real line. How on earth could there be an infinitesimal > between a real number and its surrounding real numbers? Define "cutting point". From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 23:03:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqyD-00067L-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:03:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:02:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqxw-00066v-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:02:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:02:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqxp-00066p-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:02:37 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-234-38.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.234.38]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43BEA3709C for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:02:34 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CAB5626.9E318C6C@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 21:21:10 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Orjan Johansen wrote: > On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > > > Orjan Johansen wrote: > > > > > Also, 9 could be replaced with the more useful T, which uses the > > > accumulator to determine which verse to print. It would also increment > > > it, making + obsolete. This gives an alternative way of making quines, > > > which are unfortunately now needed to produce "Hello world!". > > > > I don't understand. What would the "T" character exactly do and why does it > > have that letter? > > My apologies, I had somehow gotten the impression that HQ9+ required > upper-case commands. I thought the same, actually. > Now I see that the reference implementation even > requires lower case. So my idea does not work. Can case be so important? > Here is what it would have looked like: > > exception OutOfBeer > ;; > > let accumulator = ref 1 > ;; > > let accumulate () = > incr accumulator > ;; > > let t () = > begin match 100-!accumulator with > | 0 -> > raise OutOfBeer > | 1 -> > print_endline "1 bottle of beer on the wall"; > print_endline "1 bottle of beer"; > print_endline "Take one down and pass it around"; > print_endline "No bottles of beer on the wall" > | n -> > print_int n; print_endline " bottles of beer on the wall"; > print_int n; print_endline " bottles of beer"; > print_endline "Take one down and pass it around"; > print_int (n - 1); print_endline " bottles of beer on the wall"; > print_newline (); > beer (n - 1) > end; > accumulate () > ;; What does the "OutOfBeer" exception do? What's the connection with quines? From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Wed Apr 03 23:03:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqyD-00067M-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:03:01 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:02:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqy0-000679-00; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:02:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:02:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pandora.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.179]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sqxt-000673-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 23:02:41 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-234-38.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.234.38]) by pandora.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01CBF376CA for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:02:39 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@pandora.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CAB57AF.652B9BFF@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 21:27:44 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: The Ruler language References: <000f01c1db05$7a2c5650$a500000a@td165> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc dmoss@tdsi.co.uk wrote: > > In other words: give us a reason to _care_ about your language. > > You don't have to care about it, I just posted it there because I wanted to > know if someone was interested in writing a quine or an interpreter. Only people who care about the language would be interested in writing anything in it... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 00:20:21 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ssAb-0006Np-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:19:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:19:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ssAH-0006Nj-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:19:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:19:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ssA9-0006Nd-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:19:25 +0300 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:8362 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[ta1eh3dzu3dN8w8zULoNk3W9nVL4E6fA]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 23:19:09 +0200 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 23:19:09 +0200 (CEST) From: Orjan Johansen To: Esoteric Languages List Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? In-Reply-To: <3CAB5626.9E318C6C@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > Orjan Johansen wrote: > > exception OutOfBeer > > ;; > > > > let accumulator =3D ref 1 > > ;; > > > > let accumulate () =3D > > incr accumulator > > ;; > > > > let t () =3D > > begin match 100-!accumulator with > > | 0 -> > > raise OutOfBeer > > | 1 -> > > print_endline "1 bottle of beer on the wall"; > > print_endline "1 bottle of beer"; > > print_endline "Take one down and pass it around"; > > print_endline "No bottles of beer on the wall" > > | n -> > > print_int n; print_endline " bottles of beer on the wall"; > > print_int n; print_endline " bottles of beer"; > > print_endline "Take one down and pass it around"; > > print_int (n - 1); print_endline " bottles of beer on the wall"; > > print_newline (); > > beer (n - 1) > > end; > > accumulate () > > ;; > > What does the "OutOfBeer" exception do? What's the connection with quine= s? The OutOfBeer exception was just to be cute. It would probably halt the program. The connection with quines and case-sensitivity is this: All the verses in the above contain only two capital letters, T and N. So if we ignore undefined commands and require commands to be upper case, then the entire text of 99 bottles of beer would be a quine with the T command above. Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My Unlambda page: Latest contraption: Unlambda to Ocaml compiler. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 00:27:11 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ssHa-0006PT-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:27:06 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:26:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ssHR-0006PJ-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:26:57 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:26:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no ([129.241.210.67]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ssHK-0006P7-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 00:26:50 +0300 Received: from hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no ([IPv6:::ffff:129.241.210.68]:8874 "EHLO hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no" ident: "[iOgp1ZyqD9ov9dWzi/mNWKubqsVp6Bi5]" whoson: "-unregistered-") by sabre-wulf.nvg.ntnu.no with ESMTP id ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 23:26:41 +0200 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 23:26:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Orjan Johansen To: Esoteric Languages List Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ In-Reply-To: <014101c1db31$694b2f60$6b81ef9b@lennie> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, D De Villiers wrote: > > C =3D prints the entire input of the program to output. > > H =3D prints "Hello world!". > > Q =3D prints the program source. > > R =3D prints the input rot-13'ed. > > S =3D sorts the input lines and prints them. > > 9 =3D prints the text of "99 bottles of beer". > > + =3D increments the accumulator. > > Very Nice !!! :) Did you wrote an interpreter for CHQRS9+ ? You asked for it. It turned out to be very easy in Perl, included below. Greetings, =D8rjan. --=20 My Unlambda page: Latest contraption: Unlambda to Ocaml compiler. #!/usr/bin/perl -w # Interpreter in Perl for the CHIQRS9+ language. # April 3, 2002 by =D8rjan Johansen. # You may use this program as you wish. sub input { @input =3D unless defined(@input); return @input; } if ($#ARGV > 0) { die "Usage: $0 \n"; } if ($#ARGV) { $prog =3D join '', input; } else { open PROG, '<', $ARGV[0] or die "Could not open $ARGV[0]: $!"; $prog =3D join '', ; } sub beer { for (my ($i,$s,$n)=3D($_[0],'s',''); $i ne 'No more'; ) { my $t=3D(my $j=3D$i-1||"No more")eq 1?'':'s'; print < Received: from [66.120.209.42] by web21401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:22:05 PST Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:22:05 -0800 (PST) From: Quowong Liu Subject: [lang] Re: [conser] Some clarifications To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <004301c1db4f$b3b816d0$3900a8c0@amir> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: qpliu@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: qpliu@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc writes, >There are a few points that I am not sure about: >1. I have the impression that functions get sets as their arguments and >return sets, so every expression you can form is a set. But the elements of >these sets cannot be sets, but only pairs of sets (of pairs, recursively >ever after). Am I right? Yes. >2. Do functions always get one-element sets as their parameter? Yes. >3. I also understand that there is not precedence at all, and that the >set-expressions are evaluated from left to right. Left to right is what my interpreter does. However, lazy sets will work best with the subexpressions evaluated in parallel, so I'll say that parallel is how it's supposed to work. >4. About your examples: "? a = (>a!2a).". From what I understand, this >gives you (>a)-(2a), which is (>a)-(>a), which is (). It doesn't seem >right. If a is (), so ? a is >a. It's a trick to get a conditional. >5. What happens if you pass a malformed Surreal number to the output? Undefined. Nontermination seems likely. My crappy interpreter in java would output nothing. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 04:23:48 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16svyd-0007B5-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 04:23:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 04:23:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16svyV-0007Az-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 04:23:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 04:23:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web21412.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.232.81]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16svyN-0007As-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 04:23:32 +0300 Message-ID: <20020404012329.52950.qmail@web21412.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.120.209.42] by web21412.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:23:29 PST Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:23:29 -0800 (PST) From: Quowong Liu Subject: [lang] Re: New language: conser To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: qpliu@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: qpliu@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Panu A Kalliokoski writes, >> Then lazy evaluation with parallel evaluation of arguments when >> forced will be the way to go. > >Yes. It just leaves the problem of efficient implementation of lazy >sets... ordered data structures are bad, they require calculating all >elements to be able to extract the first one. Maybe a structure with a >lazy "element producer", and strictly-evaluated exclusion and condition >lists... and then it is crucial for the operation of these to flatten the >structure as much as possible... (Just thinking aloud) I'm thinking along similar lines. Something like this (using ocaml syntax): type 'a lazyset = Set of 'a set | LazySet of 'a set * (unit -> 'a lazyset * 'a option) where the unit->'a lazyset*'a option does a single step in its calculation. It doesn't necessarily produce a new element, so that parallel evaluation of arguments is possible. Returning the new element when produced is redundant, but obviously useful. For example, forcing one step of (a b c) would force one step of a, and return the next step, which will force one step of b. Another idea is: type 'a lazyset = Set of 'a set | LazySet of 'a set * 'a set * (unit -> 'a lazyset * 'a option * 'a option) where the additional stuff are elements that are not in the set, which would be useful for the intersection and set difference operations. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 08:37:24 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16szvD-0007gw-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 08:36:31 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 08:36:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sztP-0007g9-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 08:34:39 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 08:34:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16sztH-0007g2-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 08:34:31 +0300 Received: from there (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g345YRs01928 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:34:27 -0700 Message-Id: <200204040534.g345YRs01928@ns3.safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:34:30 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <20020402061038.53243.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> <014001c1db31$68a4dd40$6b81ef9b@lennie> In-Reply-To: <014001c1db31$68a4dd40$6b81ef9b@lennie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc In response to discussion here, I'd like to suggest the additional operand X. X implements Turing-completeness. -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 11:38:14 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16t2kW-0008Mf-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 11:37:40 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 11:37:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16t2jj-0008MJ-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 11:36:51 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 11:36:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [212.250.174.249] (helo=abydos.freakymousemats.net) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16t2jb-0008MD-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 11:36:43 +0300 Received: by abydos.freakymousemats.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 14C8314C86; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:36:38 +0100 (BST) To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ From: Cal Henderson X-Sender: X-Mailer: CalMail Message-Id: <20020404083638.14C8314C86@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 09:36:38 +0100 (BST) X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cal@iamcal.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc : In response to discussion here, I'd like to suggest the additional operand X. : X implements Turing-completeness. and why not add the 'Z' instruction which implements Turing incompleteness by making the store finite? --cal From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 20:12:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tAm3-0009wb-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:11:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:11:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tAl2-0009wB-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:10:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:10:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tAkr-0009vt-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:10:34 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p93.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.93]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g34HAOT23773 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 19:10:24 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <00b401c1dbfa$d77a2da0$5d81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <20020403020527.60919.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: [lang] Re: New language: conser Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:23:47 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Quowong Liu, > Actually, I don't think java is a very good choice. For one thing, > a language that supported continuation passing would be much nicer. > This was a weekend hack just to have something to play with, and > since I use java for work, I'm familiar enough with it to make > something quickly. I'm thinking OCaml for a more serious > implementation, which would probably become a work in progress yet > of very little progress for years to come. Why ? Java is good for doing many things - Yes! You can write better interpreters in other languages (like OCaml, Haskell etc) But Java is very powerful !! :) > I used 1.4, but 1.2 or later should work. I think its time for me to update my JDK to 1.4 !! ;-) > I'd imagine a quine would take centuries and terabytes to run. Let's look and see - Maybe someone will write a quine !! :) -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 20:12:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tAm1-0009wR-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:11:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:11:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tAl2-0009wC-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:10:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:10:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tAkr-0009vs-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:10:33 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p93.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.93]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g34HAST23809 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 19:10:28 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <00b701c1dbfa$d99aeac0$5d81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: "EsoLang Lang" Subject: [lang] Beatnik Interpreter ? Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:04:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Hello! Where can I find a Beatnik interpreter ? Cliff L. Biffle's Beatnik website (http://www.cliff.biffle.org/esoterica/beatnik.html) doesn't have any interpreters. Seek interpreter in Java, Perl or Python (others will also do). -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 20:12:13 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tAm3-0009wa-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:11:47 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:11:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tAl1-0009wA-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:10:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:10:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tAkr-0009vu-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:10:34 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p93.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.93]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g34HAPT23783 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 19:10:25 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <00b501c1dbfa$d829a780$5d81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: <3CAA15B1.A0E89D11@dds.nl> Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:26:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Milo van Handel, > Only if characters not representing any instruction are ignored, rather than > signalled as an error. Of course, we course define "e" as "comment until end of > line", thereby solving this problem and also allowing for more readable > programs... Wow! Thanks !! :) This is the first positive compliment my "e" language got !! :-) -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 20:12:16 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tAm9-0009wi-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:11:53 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:11:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tAl8-0009wI-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:10:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:10:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ctb-mesg2.saix.net ([196.25.240.74]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tAl0-0009vr-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:10:42 +0300 Received: from lennie (woc53-01-p93.wc.saix.net [155.239.129.93]) by ctb-mesg2.saix.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id g34HAJT23743 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 19:10:23 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <00b301c1dbfa$d6c18c00$5d81ef9b@lennie> From: "D De Villiers" To: References: Subject: [lang] Re: conser in Haskell Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:16:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: ddevilliers@lando.co.za Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Ben Rudiak-Gould, > caught by the type system. This is a refreshing change from Lazier, which > isn't even dynamically typed. :-) Lazier ?? Where can I get it ? > The precompiled Win32 executable is about 80K gzipped. I will email it to > anyone who (for some unfathomable reason) wants to run it. Can you please send it to me threw private email to ddevilliers@lando.co.za -- Lennie De Villiers PL/I for Palm Project: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/PLI_Palm/ e (Exclamation) Programming Language: http://www.crosswinds.net/~lennie2000/comp/e_lang/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 www.geekcode.com GB/CS/CC/IT/M d++ s:,s---:--- a-- C+++ P+ L+++ W++ N+++ K--- w++ PS t+ 5++ tv+ b++ G++ h-- !r !y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 20:39:06 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tBCN-000A5G-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:38:59 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:38:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tBCD-000A5A-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:38:49 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:38:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tBC1-000A54-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:38:37 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-240-122.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.240.122]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C0E8A3496 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 19:38:30 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CAC8FA0.49AD5E0A@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 19:38:40 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc John Colagioia wrote: > The thing to note is that, no different from programming paradigms, > each of these "communications paradigms" can be used to simulate any of > the others, but they are each (as far as I can tell) disjoint enough so > that they can be easily identified (somewhat unlike programming > paradigms). Yes, but only by writing a new language, using the new paradigm, with an interpreter or compiler in the old one, using the old paradigm. For example, say you have a C++ system with only the C I/O library, which is "Commanded Communications" in your list. Then the normal C++ I/O, which is "Communication Exposures", can only be implemented using classes with operator overloads, which are present in C++ but could just as well not have been while keeping the language (which would then be more or less equivalent to C) Turing complete. > Oh, and Chris didn't like this, as I recall, because he wanted batch > processing represented. I insisted (and still insist) that batch is a > "less powerful" form of I/O, as any of these approaches can be used in > a batch, but the emulation cannot be done in the other direction. Some languages, which consider the program as a function from input to output (among others, Ben's two latest languages - Lazy K and Kayak) work only in batch mode, so it certainly deserves to be mentioned. I differentiate I/O not by how it works, but by what it can do: - No I/O. You can still use the "Omniscient-View Communications" to read some results, but I follow the "usual" programmer's view of this being cheating. Turing's machine and SMETANA, among others(?). - Batch I/O. Lazy K, Kayak, Oroogu, and probably many more esoteric lanugage, but obsolete on the non-esoteric field. - Terminal I/O. You can read from a single stream (the keyboard) and write to a single stream (the monitor), but you can do such at any moment. Most esoteric languages, little used outside of the esoteric community because it is usually trivial to extend this to the following, which is... - Full I/O. Like Terminal I/O, but allows free opening, reading, writing, and closing of an arbitrary amount of files, and maybe also things like pipes, sockets, and similar operating system extensions which are beyond the scope of this document. Used in most non-esoteric languages, but sadly, rare inside the esoteric community. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 20:48:49 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tBLn-000A9Q-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:48:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:48:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tBLf-000A9K-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:48:35 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:48:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rebecca.tiscali.nl ([195.241.76.181]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tBLY-000A9E-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:48:28 +0300 Received: from dds.nl (xs241-240-122.dial.tiscali.nl [195.241.240.122]) by rebecca.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5742F8A37B2 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 19:48:26 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: root@rebecca.tiscali.nl Message-ID: <3CAC91EB.3FC2F16@dds.nl> Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 19:48:28 +0200 From: Milo van Handel Organization: Milo-Soft X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-5 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ References: <20020404083638.14C8314C86@abydos.freakymousemats.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: mwq@dds.nl Precedence: bulk X-list: misc Cal Henderson wrote: > : In response to discussion here, I'd like to suggest the additional operand X. > : X implements Turing-completeness. > > and why not add the 'Z' instruction which implements Turing incompleteness by making the store finite? What are you two talking about? What do the these commands do? And I hope you realise that HQ9+ is a joke, and making it anything near Turing complete would ruin it. It is intended to be able to easily implment those simple programs that we always go for immediately when a new lanugage is released, without actually having any real functionality. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 21:07:57 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tBeI-000ABo-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:07:50 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:07:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tBeA-000ABi-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:07:42 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:07:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mailout04.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.18]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tBe7-000ABc-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:07:39 +0300 Received: from fwd00.sul.t-online.de by mailout04.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 16tBdx-0002oR-0G; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:07:29 +0200 Received: from neun (320072378593-0001@[217.80.230.70]) by fwd00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 16tBdu-1CqsPQC; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:07:26 +0200 From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) To: Subject: [chat] [rant] COM sucks Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:07:15 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal X-Sender: 320072378593-0001@t-dialin.net X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc If the imbeciles that are responsible for the IBM kernel debugger got together with the designers of edlins' GUI and the guys that made up the syntax for JCL, got terribly drunk and decided to pull a real bad april fools joke on programmers, they couldn't come up with something more braindead than COM. OK, some time ago I wrote some code that allows an ActiveX object invoked from a HTML page to callback a javascript function on the same page. To do this, you have to - implement IObjectWithSite in addition to whatever other interfaces you already have only to get a pointer to IUnknown - get a IServiceProvider from IUnknown - get a STopLevelBrowser from the IServiceProvider - get a IWebBrowser2 from the TopLevelBrowser - get a document from the IWebBrowser2 - get a parent window (not directly, but using IDispatch) from the document - get a IID_IHTMLWindow2 from the parent window - and then, finally, you can execute your callback. That in itself would be fair proof that COM sucks. Well, everything was fine until there was a business descision not to use .HTMs, but use .HTAs instead. HTAs are "HTML Applications", another microsoft specific thingy that is basically IE invoked in a window without browser navigation functions. (The reasoning behind that: the user cannot navigate away from the web app, but must follow the predefined functions). In HTAs, the callback (which, mind you, works as described in MSDN) doesn't work - there is no STopLevelBrowser. There is only about 20 pages in the whole 1.3 GB of MSDN that deals with HTAs, none of which tell you anything about the HTA object modell. After a frustrated six hour search through the docs, I found a way to get to the callback, utilizing "Active Accessibility" funcs (that is: funcs made for "physically challenged people" so they can use the computer, too). It involves an otherwise undocumented window message, and lots of rather pointless messing-with-pointers. You can read the whole thing here: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q249232 Ha, there must be a better way, and right there is: "COM events". [The chapter on this topic in "Inside OLE" has a subchapter "Why the complexity?"]. Its a "standard" mechanism for any COM object to fire events and thus callback client code. To write COM events all you need to do is implement 4 (four) different new interfaces (for 1 (one) callback!), and hope they get called. Well, a testscript in python worked just fine, so I started up the HTA - nothing. The HTA didn't want to register for my events, it wanted to register for totally different and unimplemented events. The whole morning today I searched the docs in vain. I found real gems like this one: """IOleObject ...Although this interface contains 21 methods, only three are nontrivial to implement and must be fully implemented: DoVerb, SetHostNames, and Close.""" and """If you have been considering using the [helpstringdll("")] and [helpstringcontext()] IDL attributes you will probably have noticed that MSDN mentions a function called DLLGetDocumentation. You will also have noticed that the function prototype for DLLGetDocumentation is completely undocumented. I ran into this problem and have received the following prototype from a Micorosoft Premier Support representative in the UK. HRESULT WINAPI DLLGetDocumentation(ITypeLib* ptlib, ITypeInfo* ptinfo, LCID lcid, DWORD dwCtx, BSTR* pbstrHelpString); """ Until finally I made a desparate attempt and wrote a COM spy[*]. I found out that MSCOMM32.OCX implements about 10 interfaces in addition to those documented in its typelib. I did some good old trial-and-error hacking and found that there is one magic Interface "IProvideClassInfo" you need to implement for the callbacks to work. The interface PROVIDES THE SAME GODDAMN FU**ING INFO THAT IDISPATCH ALREADY DOES. AAARG! (And of course I later found that there is a MSDN article for that, too: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q200839) What really gets me is: WHY did they (Microsoft) design such a bad piece of crap??? I mean they might have gazillions of stupid marketing droids; but they also have some pretty smart people over there in Seattle, and some things (for example, the early, lighter-footprint versions of NT) were quite good for their day. They do have software designers sitting there (or so I hope), and all they come up is ... this?! [* It works like this: MSCOMM32.OCX is a Serial Port control, that uses COM events for data notifications. (Its totally useless for real life Serial Port handling, but nevertheless a favourite of VB types everywhere because it is so "easy" to use). I wrote a MSCOMM33.OCX registered that instead of MSCOMM32.OCX, and exported all the functions MSCOMM32.OCX exports. I wrote wrappers for both IUnknown and IClassFactory. Its a dirty job but someone's got to do it] From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 21:31:54 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tC1Q-000AGv-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:31:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:31:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tC15-000AGp-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:31:23 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:31:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rama.poly.edu ([128.238.10.212]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tC0t-000AGj-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:31:11 +0300 Received: (qmail 15732 invoked by uid 20150); 4 Apr 2002 18:30:32 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:30:32 -0500 (EST) From: John Colagioia X-Sender: jcolag@rama To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? In-Reply-To: <3CAC8FA0.49AD5E0A@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > John Colagioia wrote: > > The thing to note is that, no different from programming paradigms, > > each of these "communications paradigms" can be used to simulate any of > > the others, but they are each (as far as I can tell) disjoint enough so > > that they can be easily identified (somewhat unlike programming > > paradigms). > Yes, but only by writing a new language, using the new paradigm, with an > interpreter > or compiler in the old one, using the old paradigm. I think there's a major communications mismatch, here (no pun or other humor intended), as I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. In fact, I'm having some trouble understanding the above sentence, itself. Any help would be appreciated. > For example, say you have a > C++ system with only the C I/O library, which is "Commanded Communications" in > your > list. Then the normal C++ I/O, which is "Communication Exposures", can only be > implemented using classes with operator overloads, which are present in C++ but > could just as well not have been while keeping the language (which would then > be > more or less equivalent to C) Turing complete. But isn't the whole point to the distinction the fact that communications have no relationship whatsoever to Turing completeness? Turing completeness, for those in our home audience, is a measure of what sorts of calculations can be made in a particular system. It has nothing to do with how input or output is transferred from or to the user (note that--as has been mentioned, and I thought by you--the Turing Machine, itself, has no real I/O capacity). > > Oh, and Chris didn't like this, as I recall, because he wanted batch > > processing represented. I insisted (and still insist) that batch is a > > "less powerful" form of I/O, as any of these approaches can be used in > > a batch, but the emulation cannot be done in the other direction. > Some languages, which consider the program as a function from input to output > (among > others, Ben's two latest languages - Lazy K and Kayak) work only in batch mode, > so > it certainly deserves to be mentioned. But not from this perspective. I'd be like, in my opinion, demanding that hand calculators be covered in a discussion of programming paradigms. > I differentiate I/O not by how it > works, but > by what it can do: Which is fine, but (a) isn't very interesting from a theoretical (or even practical) standpoint, and (b) is guaranteed to have holes. I'll comment as we go, to show you what I mean. > - No I/O. You can still use the "Omniscient-View Communications" to read some > results, but I follow the "usual" programmer's view of this being cheating. > Turing's machine and SMETANA, among others(?). Is it "cheating" to post results into a shared memory segment which another process may read at a later date? If so, then there are many database applications out there that cheat heavily. > - Batch I/O. Lazy K, Kayak, Oroogu, and probably many more esoteric lanugage, > but > obsolete on the non-esoteric field. How about multiple batches? Fixed-number and variable-number, of course... > - Terminal I/O. You can read from a single stream (the keyboard) and write to > a > single stream (the monitor), but you can do such at any moment. Most > esoteric > languages, little used outside of the esoteric community because it is > usually > trivial to extend this to the following, which is... But then you miss character-oriented I/O, line-oriented I/O, buffering systems, and even screen-oriented I/O (like old PC applications that just wrote text to video memory). > - Full I/O. Like Terminal I/O, but allows free opening, reading, writing, and > closing of an arbitrary amount of files, and maybe also things like pipes, > sockets, and similar operating system extensions which are beyond the scope > of > this document. Used in most non-esoteric languages, but sadly, rare inside > the > esoteric community. And the high end ("supra-full"?) graphical output, which you're of course ignoring on purpose. Not to mention non-visual I/O (you'll see a very good example when the Essie results get posted). Also, where does one fit a C-library-like system, where all the functions are implemented except, say, fseek()? Or worse, where does INTERCAL (verbose number names as input, Roman(like) numerals as output) fit? Or a language built on an HTML/CGI model, where we can do whatever we need on the "back-end," but can only communicate with the user once per session in each direction? And most importantly, what does this tell us about the programming language (distinguished from the language implementation)? All it tells me is that, given the implementation, and depending on the sort of program I'm planning to write, I may need to write a pre/postprocessor in another language or, perhapse, write a set of programs that get chained together. That doesn't tell me anything about programming in the language; it only tells me that I might have to "think outside the box" if my program needs more flexibility. Note that this last bit is *very* different from computational power (Chomsky's language hierarchy, for those keeping score at home), where you have four (well, at least--I suppose Level-0 is sufficiently unreasearched that there might be subclassifications, there) discrete levels of power, and nothing can blur the categories or let you map something in a way that gives you unexpected capabilities. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 21:44:15 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tCDT-000AM9-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:44:11 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:44:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tCDL-000AM3-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:44:03 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:44:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rama.poly.edu ([128.238.10.212]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tCDJ-000ALx-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:44:01 +0300 Received: (qmail 15775 invoked by uid 20150); 4 Apr 2002 18:43:20 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:43:20 -0500 (EST) From: John Colagioia X-Sender: jcolag@rama To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Re: [rant] COM sucks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Gerson Kurz wrote: > If the imbeciles that are responsible for the IBM kernel debugger got > together with the designers of edlins' GUI and the guys that made up the > syntax for JCL, got terribly drunk and decided to pull a real bad april > fools joke on programmers, they couldn't come up with something more > braindead than COM. Astoundingly, most of Microsoft apparently agrees with you. I've been reading up on .NET (it's evil, but it seems to be kind of "Darth Vader" evil: You know it won't end well, but there's something about it that's really nifty), and I've found about a dozen comments with about the same attitude scattered throughout the books. Consensus seems to be that COM was a nice idea that got broken during implementation. Much like DDE, the Microsoft solution is to "go use something else." Usually sockets or .NET. Mind you, having looked at CORBA (for my Client/Server Programming course), I should also mention that it ranks just behind COM in terms of ickiness. [...] > Until finally I made a desparate attempt and wrote a COM spy[*]. I found out > that MSCOMM32.OCX implements about 10 interfaces in addition to those > documented in its typelib. I did some good old trial-and-error hacking and > found that there is one magic Interface "IProvideClassInfo" you need to > implement for the callbacks to work. The interface PROVIDES THE SAME GODDAMN > FU**ING INFO THAT IDISPATCH ALREADY DOES. AAARG! (And of course I later > found that there is a MSDN article for that, too: > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q200839) I know Gerson's going to fly to New York just to whack me upside the head for saying this, but...I thought everyone knew about IProvideClassInfo. I'm not a COM guy, but they guys I know who are talk about it like it's the boogeyman or something... > What really gets me is: WHY did they (Microsoft) design such a bad piece of > crap??? I mean they might have gazillions of stupid marketing droids; but > they also have some pretty smart people over there in Seattle, ...Most of whom are desperately trying to either get out of the company (they were enticed by stock options which...well, I don't want to get into a stock market discussion) or get over to XBox development... > and some > things (for example, the early, lighter-footprint versions of NT) were quite > good for their day. They do have software designers sitting there (or so I > hope), and all they come up is ... this?! As I understand it (which, admittedly, is from bits and pieces of third-hand information), (D(/))COM(+) is screwed up because COM "needed" to (a) be consistent with normal COM and now-ancient OLE, and (b) keep up with the Joneses (in this case, the screwed-up group working on CORBA). I'd like to think it was all a ruse to draw people away from CORBA and shunt them to .NET, but I think it's just a matter of trying to implement "cutting edge" technology and maintain backward compatibility. Oh, and get it out the door ASAP. > [* It works like this: MSCOMM32.OCX is a Serial Port control, that uses COM > events for data notifications. (Its totally useless for real life Serial > Port handling, but nevertheless a favourite of VB types everywhere because > it is so "easy" to use). I wrote a MSCOMM33.OCX registered that instead of > MSCOMM32.OCX, and exported all the functions MSCOMM32.OCX exports. I wrote > wrappers for both IUnknown and IClassFactory. Its a dirty job but someone's > got to do it] And here we see one of the few reasons I actually sort of like Windows, despite its problems: When things go really badly, there's always a bizarre hack that can be used to subvert the main system and salvage what you need... Try doing *that* under Linux...at runtime... From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Thu Apr 04 22:22:05 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tCo0-000AT5-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:21:56 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:21:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tCns-000ASz-00; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:21:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:21:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from mailout07.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.83]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tCnq-000ASt-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:21:46 +0300 Received: from fwd00.sul.t-online.de by mailout07.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 16tCl8-0006Ug-07; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:18:58 +0200 Received: from neun (320072378593-0001@[217.80.230.70]) by fwd00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 16tCl2-2EjRp2C; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:18:52 +0200 From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) To: Subject: [chat] AW: Re: [rant] COM sucks Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:18:40 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Sender: 320072378593-0001@t-dialin.net X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de Precedence: bulk X-list: misc > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, John Colagioia wrote > Consensus seems to be that COM was a nice idea that got broken during > implementation. Much like DDE, the Microsoft solution is to "go use > something else." Usually sockets or .NET. Still I like COM better than .NET, at least COM is basically C++ gone wrong, in COM I can still fire up a disassembler and find my way. On the other hand, .NET is Java gone wrong (if that is possible). The project I am currently working on (a banking application implemented in the browser for one of the largest german banks) had to decide between ".NET" and COM. They choose COM because a) at the time .NET was not released (sometime around last october-november? phew, very close!) and b) because they would have to buy new machines for .NET development - .NET is not "certified" for the machines they have right now. Proof that god does exist. (not really). > I know Gerson's going to fly to New York just to whack me upside the > head for saying this, but...I thought everyone knew about > IProvideClassInfo. I'm not a COM guy, but they guys I know who are > talk about it like it's the boogeyman or something... I'm not a COM guy either. The first time I heard about "OLE Automation" and "IDispatch" I thought its a reasonably good idea - you not only implement methods but you also provide functions so that an application can query which methods you expose at runtime, and can call your code. Interoperability among programming languages - why not. This works, and I can call Office from Python, so all is well. Trouble is, IProvideClassInfo is just a single additional method that returns EXACTLY THE SAME as IDispatch::LoadTypeInfo. "Normal" code would just use the already existing IDispatch::LoadTypeInfo (as witness python - it worked just fine with my control); but not microsoft, microsoft defines an additional interface that does the same, only has fewer arguments to pass. I simply wouldn't have HAD THE IDEA of defining ANOTHER interface IN ADDITION TO what I already have. You cannot say that is "legacy", because (I think that) IDispatch was there much earlier than the redundancy that is IProvideClassInfo. > > [* It works like this: MSCOMM32.OCX is a Serial Port control, > that uses COM > > events for data notifications. (Its totally useless for real life Serial > > Port handling, but nevertheless a favourite of VB types > everywhere because > > it is so "easy" to use). I wrote a MSCOMM33.OCX registered that > instead of > > MSCOMM32.OCX, and exported all the functions MSCOMM32.OCX > exports. I wrote > > wrappers for both IUnknown and IClassFactory. Its a dirty job > but someone's > > got to do it] > > And here we see one of the few reasons I actually sort of like Windows, > despite its problems: When things go really badly, there's always a > bizarre hack that can be used to subvert the main system and salvage > what you need... Yes. Redirector DLLs are fun ;) I don't know if you all know this, but here is a nice little trick to spy on DLL functions. Say, you have a foo.exe, and you want to know what it writes to the serial port using kernel32.dll functions: - create a new dll called "kernel33.dll" (any name, as long as its <= the size of the original name). - create a .DEF file that exports all functions foo.exe imports from kernel32.dll - modify all "useless" api calls to look something like this CreateFileA=kernel32.CreateFileA CloseHandle=kernel32.CloseHandle etc. This makes a DLL that exports exactly the same as kernel32.dll does. No implementation necessary! - patch foo.exe to replace "kernel32.dll" by "kernel33.dll" - implement your spy function with the same prototype as, say WriteFile, named MyWriteFile - change the deffile WriteFile=MyWriteFile now, whenever foo.exe calls kernel32.WriteFile(), it will actually call kernel33.MyWriteFile() (the implementation will in turn call the real kernel32.WriteFile()). [Code sample available upon request]. Same idea works for OS/2 too. From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Apr 05 06:05:00 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tK1t-000CvY-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 06:04:45 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 06:04:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tK1R-000CvS-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 06:04:17 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 06:04:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tK1J-000CvM-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 06:04:09 +0300 Received: from there (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g35343s23850 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:04:03 -0700 Message-Id: <200204050304.g35343s23850@ns3.safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Beatnik Interpreter ? Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:04:06 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <00b701c1dbfa$d99aeac0$5d81ef9b@lennie> In-Reply-To: <00b701c1dbfa$d99aeac0$5d81ef9b@lennie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thursday 04 April 2002 07:04 am, you wrote: > Where can I find a Beatnik interpreter ? Cliff L. Biffle's Beatnik website > (http://www.cliff.biffle.org/esoterica/beatnik.html) doesn't have any > interpreters. > > Seek interpreter in Java, Perl or Python (others will also do). I had an interpreter knocked out in Java, but I can't find it. I'll rework it. I personally want to see an interpreter written in Beatnik. That rhymes. And follows iambic pentameter. :-) -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Apr 05 06:06:53 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tK3v-000Cw2-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 06:06:51 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 06:06:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tK3n-000Cvw-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 06:06:43 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 06:06:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tK3g-000Cvq-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 06:06:36 +0300 Received: from there (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3536Xs23957 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:06:34 -0700 Message-Id: <200204050306.g3536Xs23957@ns3.safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: CHQRS9+ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 20:06:37 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <20020404083638.14C8314C86@abydos.freakymousemats.net> <3CAC91EB.3FC2F16@dds.nl> In-Reply-To: <3CAC91EB.3FC2F16@dds.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thursday 04 April 2002 10:48 am, you wrote: > What are you two talking about? What do the these commands do? X implements Turing-completeness. When you run X, the programming language becomes Turing-complete. > > And I hope you realise that HQ9+ is a joke, and making it anything near > Turing complete would ruin it. It is intended to be able to easily implment > those simple programs that we always go for immediately when a new lanugage > is released, without actually having any real functionality. ...HQ9+ is a joke? Why didn't someone tell me earlier? Oh, the humanity! *grin* -Cliff L. Biffle From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Apr 05 08:34:38 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tMMk-000DDg-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 08:34:27 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 08:34:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tMMU-000DDP-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 08:34:10 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 08:34:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web12901.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.174.68]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tMMM-000DDJ-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 08:34:03 +0300 Message-ID: <20020405053351.8744.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.78.145.92] by web12901.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:33:51 PST Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 21:33:51 -0800 (PST) From: Nikita Ayzikovsky Subject: [lang] Re: Beatnik Interpreter ? To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <200204050304.g35343s23850@ns3.safety.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: order_of_may@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: order_of_may@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --- "Cliff L. Biffle" wrote: > I personally want to see an interpreter written in Beatnik. That rhymes. > And follows iambic pentameter. :-) Is it even possible? Beatnik is not TC, is it? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Apr 05 11:17:20 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tOu9-000DiS-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:17:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:16:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tOto-000DiL-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:16:44 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:16:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from ns3.safety.net ([216.40.201.32]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tOtg-000DiF-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:16:37 +0300 Received: from there (rs.rackshack.net.safety.net [216.40.201.32]) by ns3.safety.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g358GUs04588 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 01:16:34 -0700 Message-Id: <200204050816.g358GUs04588@ns3.safety.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Cliff L. Biffle" To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Beatnik Interpreter ? Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 01:16:34 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <20020405053351.8744.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20020405053351.8744.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: cbiffle@safety.net Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thursday 04 April 2002 10:33 pm, you wrote: > Is it even possible? Beatnik is not TC, is it? I don't remember. I could make it so, if it were desired. -Cliff From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Apr 05 13:27:38 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tQwH-000E4b-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:27:25 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:27:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tQvm-000E4Q-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:26:54 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:26:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tQve-000E4K-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:26:46 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g35AQRr12005 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:26:27 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g35AQNc03516 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:26:23 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:26:23 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [lang] Re: Purpose of "+" in HQ9+ ? In-Reply-To: <3CAC8FA0.49AD5E0A@dds.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Milo van Handel wrote: > Some languages, which consider the program as a function from input to > output (among others, Ben's two latest languages - Lazy K and Kayak) > work only in batch mode, so it certainly deserves to be mentioned. I But "batch" mode becomes interactive if evaluation is lazy. I think lazy K, for example, is more of the "communication exposures" model: the input and output are modeled as language-level constructs, which happen to be lists. Hardcoded input is probably the only real batch input in my book. > differentiate I/O not by how it works, but by what it can do: > - No I/O. Apparently, this means "no program-initiated I/O". But the border is vague: if I know some area of memory gets mapped to the screen, will I be doing output (or input) if my brainfuck interpreter uses that area for the tape? > - Batch I/O. Rather, non-interactive I/O. Note that hardcoded input might be much richer than user input, because user input in most environments is streams of characters / bytes, whereas hardcoded input might be any language-level constructs. > - Terminal I/O. Funny name, as "terminal" is often used in Unix-like environments as a name for devices whose I/O capabilities far exceed those of "streams", which you seem to be describing. Where does random-access terminal I/O fit? What about ioctl's? > - Full I/O. What about callbacks, shared memory, RPC, interfaces, graphical output, sound (midi?), block-oriented I/O, memory-mapped chips, processor ports, interrupts, ...? Are these all "more evolved" than mere streams? If so, why are streams usually built on top of these? -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Apr 05 13:42:29 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tRAj-000E72-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:42:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:42:14 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tRAb-000E6w-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:42:13 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:42:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tRAZ-000E6q-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:42:11 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g35Ag4r17534 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:42:05 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g35Ag0B04349 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:42:00 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:42:00 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Re: [rant] COM sucks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Gerson Kurz wrote: > The whole morning today I searched the docs in vain. I found real gems like [...] > found that there is one magic Interface "IProvideClassInfo" you need to > implement for the callbacks to work. The interface PROVIDES THE SAME GODDAMN > FU**ING INFO THAT IDISPATCH ALREADY DOES. AAARG! (And of course I later > found that there is a MSDN article for that, too: There are interesting differences between the open source world and the commercial world. In open source world, it is often cheaper to correct the problem than to document it, so documentation tends to lag behind. In commercial world, the opposite seems to hold: because idiotism is hard to correct, it gets documented and everybody thinks it's fine - besides, this has the added benefit that you really need to be not only intelligent but also knowledgeable in the field to be able to accomplish anything. Even so, commercial products neglect the importance of open documentation. Why? Because this neatly builds a culture where commercial education and software engineer certification is a standard. This means more money. Having worked for some time with M$-originated products (access, VB) I concluded that they're not meant to be used by anyone, and the only reason anybody would use them is that they have already acquired sufficient knowledge to make it pay. Therefore, I made the conclusion that becoming a competent M$ software engineer is the worst one could possibly do. > What really gets me is: WHY did they (Microsoft) design such a bad piece of COM itself is actually a relatively good design; everything that uses COM tends to be bad. Once a friend of mine asked, "what is the Unix equivalent to COM?" I had to admit there is none: standard layout on compilation level does not work well wrt portability. In Unix, the same thing is done on source level, with CORBA, for example. But still, I ended up thinking that it would be nice to have at least something similar on the Unix side. Even a standard symbol one could extract from a .so, from which you could read what symbols the .so wants to export and with what prototypes. Then .so's could provide a standard binging interface for different languages. So close, yet so far... Panu -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Apr 05 14:00:55 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tRSa-000ECP-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 14:00:48 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 14:00:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tRSL-000ECI-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 14:00:33 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list sci); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 14:00:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from porsta.cs.helsinki.fi ([128.214.48.124]) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tRSF-000ECC-00 for sci@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 14:00:27 +0300 Received: from melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (sslwrap@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by porsta.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g35B0Pr23687 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 14:00:26 +0300 Received: from localhost (pkalliok@localhost) by melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g35B0KY05209 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 14:00:20 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: melkinpaasi.cs.Helsinki.FI: pkalliok owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 14:00:20 +0300 (EEST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski To: sci@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [sci] Re: [lang] Re: New language: conser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk Reply-to: sci@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: sci X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Orjan Johansen wrote: > If you cut the real line then one of the parts will have an end point. > However, when interpreted as a surreal number the cut is not that end > point, but rather the simplest infinitesimal between the end point and the > other cut part. I have difficulties understanding this, but I will try to ask for clarifications. If I cut the real line by a predicate like "<3.4", the true part will not have an end point, and the false part will - OK. But the infinitesimal should always be part of the real line, because no matter how close we get in the true part to the value of 3.4, it will always be a real number, by definition (even if infinitesimal). Similarly, if you do the same to surreal numbers, the same should happen - it is the definition of the real line that there is no space between reals ("an infinitesimal") that will not be a real number. The infinitesimal from 3.4 downwards should be a part of the true part. Thus, surreal and real numbers seem isomorphic, or rather, surreal numbers seem one representation of real numbers. How is an infinitesimal different from a real number that is guaranteed to be >0.0 but is smaller than any given number that is >0.0? -- Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh atehwa@iki.fi From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Apr 05 15:29:21 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tSq1-000ETJ-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:29:05 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:28:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tSpU-000ET6-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:28:32 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list lang); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:28:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from web14002.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.175.93]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tSpJ-000ET0-00 for lang@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:28:22 +0300 Message-ID: <20020405122809.20001.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.241.42.36] by web14002.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:28:09 BST Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:28:09 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Stephen=20Sykes?= Subject: [lang] Re: languages / kayak interpreter To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi In-Reply-To: <00b401c1dbfa$d77a2da0$5d81ef9b@lennie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-583075660-1018009689=:19282" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lang@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: lang X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: s_d_sykes@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: misc --0-583075660-1018009689=:19282 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline > > I'm thinking OCaml for a more serious > > implementation, which would probably become a work in progress yet > > of very little progress for years to come. > > Why ? Java is good for doing many things - Yes! You can write better > interpreters in other languages (like OCaml, Haskell etc) But Java is > very powerful !! :) Well, java is ok, but I've never liked it myself. Too long winded. However, that's not my point - I wanted to say that personally I like writing interpreters in Ruby. And to prove my point here is a new kayak interpreter. It works ok on Ben's sample programs, and is comfortably 1/4 the size of the original C++ interpreter. On the other hand, Ruby runs out of stack space when running any of the quines, so maybe the C++ implementation is superior after all :-) ... anyway, enjoy. Stephen +- S.D.Sykes - www.stephensykes.com - +44 777 577 2637 - | "By 2030, it will take a village of human brains (around a | thousand) to match $1,000 of computing [power]." -- Ray Kurzweil __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? 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--0-583075660-1018009689=:19282-- From esoteric@oiva.sange.fi Fri Apr 05 15:38:31 2002 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tSz7-000EVV-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:38:29 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:38:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tSyz-000EVP-00; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:38:21 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list chat); Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:38:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from rama.poly.edu ([128.238.10.212]) by oiva.sange.fi with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16tSyx-000EVJ-00 for chat@esoteric.sange.fi; Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:38:19 +0300 Received: (qmail 18005 invoked by uid 20150); 5 Apr 2002 12:37:42 -0000 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:37:41 -0500 (EST) From: John Colagioia X-Sender: jcolag@rama To: chat@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: [chat] Re: AW: Re: [rant] COM sucks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: chat-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: chat@esoteric.sange.fi X-list: chat X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: jcolag@rama.poly.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: misc On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Gerson Kurz wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, John Colagioia wrote > > Consensus seems to be that COM was a nice idea that got broken during > > implementation. Much like DDE, the Microsoft solution is to "go use > > something else." Usually sockets or .NET. > Still I like COM better than .NET, at least COM is basically C++ gone wrong, > in COM I can still fire up a disassembler and find my way. On the other > hand, .NET is Java gone wrong (if that is possible). I honestly don't know about the implementation, yet, as I haven't gotten around to tinkering. Conceptually and architecturally, though, I'm becoming more fond of it as I read up on it. It's true that it carries the stench of Java, but it looks like they actually tried to learn the lessons indicated by Java's foulups, rather than just reinvent the wheel. What I *don't* like about .NET is the fact that all the high-level languages apparently "have to" be modified to become more Java-like. The VB programmers deserve it, though... [Interesting note, actually: If you pick up the O'Reilly book on the .NET framework, it has code samples in the assembly language, C#, and VB.NET; it's almost a complete waste of space, because the languages appear to be identical, other than keywords] [...] > Trouble is, IProvideClassInfo is just a single additional method that > returns EXACTLY THE SAME as IDispatch::LoadTypeInfo. "Normal" code would > just use the already existing IDispatch::LoadTypeInfo (as witness python - > it worked just fine with my control); but not microsoft, microsoft defines > an additional interface that does the same, only has fewer arguments to > pass. I simply wouldn't have HAD THE IDEA of defining ANOTHER interface IN > ADDITION TO what I already have. You cannot say that is "legacy", because (I > think that) IDispatch was there much earlier than the redundancy that is > IProvideClassInfo. Oh, I wasn't defending it, and I have absolutely no idea where it might have come from (except, perhaps, from the occasional standard Microsoft brainfart of providing identical functionality with slightly different parameters; that just...happens, sometimes, from what I can tell). I was just saying that I thought everyone knew about this, because every COM person I've ever spoken to has horror stories about IProvideClassInfo almost identical to yours. I figured it had become part of standard folklore, by now. [...] Oh! A friend of mine just got back from an interview at Microsoft. While there, he got to meet the fellow responsible for the evil paperclip man. Apparently, he introduced himself by saying, "I've worked on pretty much every version of Office, and yes, the paperclip was my idea, but I'd really rather not talk about that...and maybe pretend it didn't happen."