Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:49:22 +0300 (EEST)
From: "Panu A. Kalliokoski" <atehwa@oiva.sange.fi>
Subject: [misc] [lang] koe


testi4






------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:12:54 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] lists @esoteric.sange.fi



Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> 
> Now there are two brand new lists, lang@esoteric.sange.fi for the
> "restricted" discussion and misc@esoteric.sange.fi for "free" discussion.
> The lists can be joined majordomo-style, though the software behing the
> lists is listar.
> 
> The current setup is such that misc@esoteric.sange.fi is a subscriber of
> lang@esoteric.sange.fi, effectively dumping all lang postings to misc
> also. I'd appreciate your views of whether this is desirable.

There may be "lang" threads that slip to "misc" when a "misc"-only reader
answers a "lang" post ? (But "misc" readers interested in on-topic "lang"
threads probably subscribed to "lang" too so they're able to answer
there, if they're careful enough.)

> I'm not sure when or how the transfer should take place (if at all). You
> can try subscribing yourself by sending listar@esoteric.sange.fi (or
> majordomo/minordomo/listserv@esoteric.sange.fi) a message containing
> "subscribe <listname>" (or add, join, subscription, etc.)

Done that.

> Chris could send
> me the e-mail addresses of the subscribers privately (given that you all
> agree that I'm not a potential 3vil spamm3r), duplicate subscriptions will
> be skipped gracefully.

Ok for me but maybe not for everyone ? That looks slightly dangerous.

> (given that you all agree that I'm not a potential 3vil spamm3r)

Well, err, hum, I have my doubts, what was that "[SPAM?]" addition we've
seen from you a few times, err... <grin>

> I suggest at first that the discussion should take place on
> misc@esoteric.sange.fi. To move on-topic postings to
> lang@esoteric.sange.fi it will be enough to change the To: header.

Ok. If the discussion takes off on "misc" I'll continue there.

But, misc traffic could continue to go to list@Cat'sEye. Perhaps you
should rather forward list@sange.fi to list@casteye ?

Frederic vdP



------------------------------

From: "Daniel Perry" <entreido@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:12:28 -0400
Subject: [lang] (no subject)






------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:11:30 +0300 (EEST)
From: "Panu A. Kalliokoski" <atehwa@oiva.sange.fi>
Subject: [lang] [list-meta] A bit of administrivia


As you already know, there are two lists: lang@esoteric.sange.fi and
misc@esoteric.sange.fi.

lang (and, in future, possibly other lists) will get forwarded to misc
also. Thus, it is unnecessary, though not forbidden (of course), to
subscribe to both. 

If you subscribe to both because you want to easily keep track of reply-to
addresses, be informed that misc is a transparent list which does (or at
least should not) do any header rewriting. Thus, if a message got into
misc via lang, the reply-to address will be set to lang. It is on the
users' responsibility to change the list address when the topic is
changing (for example, to restrict to misc a discussion originated on lang
when it's getting off-topic).

I've asked Chris to propagate all postings to list@catseye to
misc@esoteric (by subscribing misc@esoteric to list@catseye). Because of
the same transparency, these postings will retain a reply-to header of
list@catseye. This way, it should be possible to participate in the
discussion of list@catseye through misc@esoteric. I'm not sure of the
status of this one.

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:07:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [SETI Puzzle] Message the third, 7 February 1995

On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Gabriel McKean wrote:
[...]
> Assumming that the 'i' is some sort of statement concatenator,

'i' is semi-established elsewhere as a binary AND operator of sorts.

> this becomes
> p = 2, q = 0, r = 108g (using g for 'alien degrees').  I would guess that
> the bit pattern below it is meant to indicate a half arc, but there are some
> problems.  There's one more 'B' than needed, so the arc is a little longer
> than it should be. 

Don't think of it as exact.  Think of it as a crude representation of a
picture.  The "extra bit" is presumably indicative of a "complete half-
circle," with both "endpoints" on the arc, rather than one which is
missing an endpoint.

I think.

> And I have no idea what the 'q' is supposed to
> represent.  Maybe an unused third dimension?

Oops!  Wait a second, I think we read that wrong.  Don't forget the
symmetry.

It *physically* reads (p == 3) && (q == g0) && (r == g108), but is
probably better interpreted as:
	r == g108 && p == 3 --> q == g0
That is, if the angle is g108 (180 degrees) and the radius is 3,
q--whatever q is--is 0 degrees (alien or otherwise, I would assume).

Alas, that's the only incidence of q, which makes final interpretation
of that a bit suspect.  There are, after all, quite a few things that
would be zero in that case...



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:08:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [The .: Language]  Nothing interesting here, move on.

On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> "Cliff L. Biffle" wrote:
> > Forty -- an adjective meaning "Forth-like."
> Or how about "almost, but not quite, Fortean".

DO I = 10...

Oh!  FortEan...

Oops.



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:09:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [SETI] [but not]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:
> >If it's any consolation, I'm with you on this.  That is, if you send me
> >an email in which you request fourty kilograms of silicon dessicate, I
> >will know what you mean, and I won't complain at all.
> No, no, no.   It's fourty keelograms of silicun dessicate.
> And I have every right to say that, being the original misspeller and all.

I thought you were just playing Planetfall, again...



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:30:31 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.


I hope this will be the last administrative message for a short time to
bother you with. At least, from me.

The lists at esoteric.sange.fi have been up for some time now. They seem
to work, and are getting subscribers. I changed the subscription style to
confirmed as soon as I noticed they were totally open for subscribing.
(Listar is basically very nice software, but the documentation is probably
the worst I've seen for a while.)

Well, on to the point. I managed to hack up a subscription of
misc@esoteric.sange.fi to list@catseye.mb.ca. This means that it should be
sufficient for people to subscribe only to either one. Because
misc@esoteric.sange.fi does not change reply-to headers, it should still
be possible to conveniently take part in discussion on list@catseye via
misc@esoteric.

Because misc@esoteric seems to be becoming a huge trashcan of "everything
on the earth" (and why not?), I think I'll found sometime in the future
some more lists, maybe even one dedicated to chat. :)

But for now, it's only list@catseye, lang@esoteric and misc@esoteric.
(That's the good, bad and ugly for you.)

Panu

Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh
atehwa@iki.fi





------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:23:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeff Pinyan <jeffp@crusoe.net>
Subject: Re: An improved brainfuck interpreter

On Apr 20, Cliff L. Biffle said:

>>I'm new to this list and these languages (found them yesterday infact) but i'm
>>already highly entertained/informed by the mails i've read. If anyone wants
>>interpreters written for other languages, i'd love to have a go.
>
>Groovy!
>
>Despite some peoples' dislike of Perl on this list, I must say the 
>interpreter core there is very tight. :-)

Greetings to 'iamcal' from PerlMonks.  The posted interpreter code is
mine, but it was only an optimization of the code he'd posted earlier.

The main principle of my optimization was converting multiple +'s and -'s
to +='s and -='s, etc.

-- 
Jeff "japhy" Pinyan      japhy@pobox.com      http://www.pobox.com/~japhy/
Are you a Monk?  http://www.perlmonks.com/     http://forums.perlguru.com/
Perl Programmer at RiskMetrics Group, Inc.     http://www.riskmetrics.com/
Acacia Fraternity, Rensselaer Chapter.         Brother #734



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:50:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeff Pinyan <jeffp@crusoe.net>
Subject: Re: An improved brainfuck interpreter

On Apr 20, Jeff Pinyan said:

>On Apr 20, Cliff L. Biffle said:
>
>>>I'm new to this list and these languages (found them yesterday infact) but i'm
>>>already highly entertained/informed by the mails i've read. If anyone wants
>>>interpreters written for other languages, i'd love to have a go.
>>
>>Groovy!
>>
>>Despite some peoples' dislike of Perl on this list, I must say the 
>>interpreter core there is very tight. :-)
>
>Greetings to 'iamcal' from PerlMonks.  The posted interpreter code is
>mine, but it was only an optimization of the code he'd posted earlier.
>
>The main principle of my optimization was converting multiple +'s and -'s
>to +='s and -='s, etc.

I'm curious if I could further optimize the multiplication idiom:

  > (next pointer)
  +++++ (add 5 to pointer's value)
  [ (equiv of a 1 to 5 loop)
    < (prev pointer)
    +++++++++++++ (add 13 to pointer's value)
    > (next pointer)
    - (subtract 1 from pointer's value)
  ] (now we have 5 * 13 = 65)
  < (prev pointer (to 65))

It's easy enough to spot this pattern:

  # assume all non-BF characters have been removed
  # qr// creates a compiled regex object
  # the name 'b_to_a' indicates storing the product in an EARLIER cell

  $b_to_a_mult = qr{
    >
    (\++)    # this becomes $1
    \[
      <
      (\++)  # this becomes $2
      >
      -
    \]
    <
  }x;

This would be optimized to:

  $cell[$p] += length($1) * length($2);

However, this would not be good enough, for take this example:

  > ++
  <
  > +++++
  [ < +++++++++++++ > - ]

Here, we're REALLY multiplying 7 and 13, but the regex would spot just 5
and 13.

So the solution is to just match the looping construct:

  # now, we allow for multiplication of NON-next to each other cells

  $b_to_a_mult = qr{
    \[
    (>+)
    (\++)
    (??{ '<' x length($1) })  # delayed interpolation of this!
    -
    \]
  }x;

Basically, this ensures we have the same number of >'s as we do <'s.

Using this regex, we change code like:

  > ++
  <
  > +++++
  [ < +++++++++++++ > - ]

into

  $p++;         # >
  $m[$p] += 2;  # ++
  $p--;         # <
  $p++;         # >
  $m[$p] += 5;  # +++++

  $m[$p-1] += $m[$p] * 13;  # [ < +++++++++++++ > - ]
  $m[$p] = 0;               # this too, as a side effect

Now, I see several other optimizations:

  1. +'s followed by -'s (and v.v.)
  2. <'s followed by >'s (and v.v.)
  3. > +  can become  $m[$p += 1] += 1  (and so on)

I'll work on mucking these into a new BrainFuck interpreter in Perl.

-- 
Jeff "japhy" Pinyan      japhy@pobox.com      http://www.pobox.com/~japhy/
Are you a Monk?  http://www.perlmonks.com/     http://forums.perlguru.com/
Perl Programmer at RiskMetrics Group, Inc.     http://www.riskmetrics.com/
Acacia Fraternity, Rensselaer Chapter.         Brother #734



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:42:14 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: [Rant] StuffIt: an unbootstrappable decompression utility

<rantish>

A colleague of mine received a .hqx file for her Mac[intosh]. (Exact
format seems to be BinHex 4). But she doesn't own a decompressor program.
'Stuffit' would do but...

      STUFFIT DOWNLOADS COME IN .HQX FORMAT ONLY

what the heck of a @#|{|#@{|@#{|@{|@#{#@{# customer service is that ????

They can't be clever enough to provide a self-expander download, or are
self-expanders, by mischance, patent-protected ?

</rantish>

Now if someone can send me a (Win/PK)ZIPped or GZIPped or targzipped
or bzip2-ed &c version of the thing, I'll be happy. (Please write me
before lest I receive several ones...)

Frederic van der Plancke



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:14:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeff Pinyan <jeffp@crusoe.net>
Subject: Re: An improved brainfuck interpreter

Here's my BrainFuck interpreter (after sig).

-- 
Jeff "japhy" Pinyan      japhy@pobox.com      http://www.pobox.com/~japhy/
Are you a Monk?  http://www.perlmonks.com/     http://forums.perlguru.com/
Perl Programmer at RiskMetrics Group, Inc.     http://www.riskmetrics.com/
Acacia Fraternity, Rensselaer Chapter.         Brother #734




#!/usr/bin/perl -w

use strict;

my $p = 0;
my %opp = qw( < > > < + - - + );
my @m;


local $/;
$_ = <>;   # read program from STDIN


# step 1 -- remove non-BF characters
tr/[]<>.,+-//cd;


# step 2 -- find +'s followed by -'s (or v.v.)
# and >'s followed by <'s (or v.v.) and reduce
s/([+-]+)/ reduce('+',$1) /eg;
s/([<>]+)/ reduce('>',$1) /eg;


# step 3 -- find multiplication loops
s{
  \[
    ([<>]+)
    (\++)
    (??{ $opp{$1} x length($1) })
    -
  \]
}{ multiply($1, length($2)) }egx;


# step 4 -- turn untouched <'s, >'s, +'s and -'s
# into the operations they signify
s{
  ( ([<>]) \2* )?
  (?<! \x20 ) ( ([+-]) \4* )
}{\$m[\$p@{[ $1 ? (' ' . ('+','-')[$2 eq '<'] . "= @{[ length($1) ]}" ) : '' ]}] $4= @{[ length($3) ]};\n}gx;

s{
  ( ([<>]) \2* )
}{\$p @{[ ('+','-')[$2 eq '<'] ]}= @{[ length($1) ]};\n}gx;


# step 5 -- turn . into write, and , into read
s{\.}{print chr \$m[\$p];\n}g;
s{,}{\$m[\$p] = ord getc;\n}g;


# step 6 -- turn untouched [ and ] into loops
s{ (?<!m) \[ }!while (\$m[\$p]) {\n!xg;
s{ (?<!p|\d) \] }!}\n!xg;


#print;
eval;
print $@ if $@;


sub reduce {
  my ($t,$s) = @_;
  my ($c,$diff);
  $c = eval "\$s =~ tr/$t//d";
  $diff = $c - length($s);
  return '' unless $diff;
  return $diff > 0 ? ($t x $diff) : ($opp{$t} x -$diff);
}


sub multiply {
  my ($shift, $prod) = @_;
  my $c = ('+','-')[$shift =~ /</];
  my $len = length $shift;
  "\$m[\$p $c $len] = \$m[\$p] * $prod;\n\$m[\$p] = 0;\n";
}




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:33:03 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: An improved brainfuck interpreter

The best Brainfuck compiler ever seem to be Panu's:

   http://sange.fi/~atehwa-u/bf/

you should have a look a that one...
It performs most and probably all of your optimisations, plus more. May
give you ideas.

Jeff Pinyan wrote:
> 
> Here's my BrainFuck interpreter (after sig).

I'd rather call it a Just-In-Time brainfuck compiler... indeed a nice
introduction to this buzz^H^H^Hleeding edge technology.

Frederic van der Plancke.



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:46:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeffry Johnston <jeffryj@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: An improved brainfuck interpreter

On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Cal Henderson wrote:

> http://iamcal.com/files/brainfuck.txt
> 
> I'm new to this list and these languages (found them yesterday infact) but i'm
> already highly entertained/informed by the mails i've read. If anyone wants
> interpreters written for other languages, i'd love to have a go.

Sounds like you are the one that can improve on my tiny MS-DOS BF compiler
& interpreter! (123 and 89 bytes respectively). 

Check out binaries and source at http://www.primenet.com/~jeffryj/bf.zip

I want to see how small they can get.  I'm sure I've missed a few
optimizations in there somewhere.

Jeff



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:56:55 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeffry Johnston <jeffryj@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: [Rant] StuffIt: an unbootstrappable decompression utility


I think the idea was that these archive could easily be sent over a 7-bit
connection and still be expanded.  Then it turned into a standard by
mistake :)  This is all theory tho, I haven't done much research into Mac
except for Basilisk II which is an awesome emulator.. I highly recommand
it.

Jeff


On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, [iso-8859-1] Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote:

> <rantish>
>=20
> A colleague of mine received a .hqx file for her Mac[intosh]. (Exact
> format seems to be BinHex 4). But she doesn't own a decompressor program.
> 'Stuffit' would do but...
>=20
>       STUFFIT DOWNLOADS COME IN .HQX FORMAT ONLY
>=20
> what the heck of a @#|{|#@{|@#{|@{|@#{#@{# customer service is that ????
>=20
> They can't be clever enough to provide a self-expander download, or are
> self-expanders, by mischance, patent-protected ?
>=20
> </rantish>
>=20
> Now if someone can send me a (Win/PK)ZIPped or GZIPped or targzipped
> or bzip2-ed &c version of the thing, I'll be happy. (Please write me
> before lest I receive several ones...)
>=20
> Frederic van der Plancke
>=20
>=20



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:14:14 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeffry Johnston <jeffryj@primenet.com>
Subject: [lang] test -nt- 







------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:20:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: We've been trumped

Wow:
	http://www.mbay.net/~cereus7/HotTEA.html

And he's not even *trying* to be weird...

And while I'm on the topic (such as it is), there's also:
	http://www.chordate.com/kwParsing/gadfly.html
...unless that's not enough programming for you, in which case, you can
add:
	http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~jeff/gfplus/
to get you some SQL...

	http://language.perl.com/misc/perlpoint.notice
is just kind of funny, really, but then don't forget we also have AAlib
lurking out there...
	http://webpages.mr.net/bobz/ttyquake/
even though the author's page appears to have gone AWOL.  (Anyone know
where it ended up, by the way?)

Incidentally, has anyone ever gotten Bochs (www.bochs.com) to compile
under Windows...?



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:50:36 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: An improved brainfuck interpreter

>   1. +'s followed by -'s (and v.v.)
>   2. <'s followed by >'s (and v.v.)

I'm working on a Brainfuck compiler for Sun machines, as I mentioned 
a while ago, and I thought of doing these optimizations and various 
others. Then I realized that I would just be optimizing stupid 
people's code so it would be as good as non-stupid people's code. And 
my sense of justice rebelled against that. I think intelligence, and 
efforts to apply it well, should be rewarded. So I'm not making those 
optimizations.
Likewise if the sequence ][ occurs then the entire second loop can be 
deleted. I'm not doing that for people either.
I'm even not optimizing common idioms, because it might sometimes be 
more efficient (without the optimization) to do something in a 
non-idiomatic fashion and I don't want to reward people for not doing 
that.
Now, this is what I want my compiler to do and not to do. It 
represents my personal tastes, nothing fancier. If other people want 
to make their compilers and interpreters make the fastest and 
shortest code they can out of whatever code they're given, they're 
perfectly within their rights.
-Daniel.


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:05:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Connors <connorbd@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Rant] StuffIt: an unbootstrappable decompression utility


--- Jeffry Johnston <jeffryj@primenet.com> wrote:
> 
> I think the idea was that these archive could easily
> be sent over a 7-bit
> connection and still be expanded.  Then it turned
> into a standard by
> mistake :)  This is all theory tho, I haven't done
> much research into Mac
> except for Basilisk II which is an awesome
> emulator.. I highly recommand
> it.

That's about how it worked out, actually.

> On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, [iso-8859-1] Frédéric van der
> Plancke wrote:
> 
> > <rantish>
> > 
> > A colleague of mine received a .hqx file for her
> Mac[intosh]. (Exact
> > format seems to be BinHex 4). But she doesn't own
> a decompressor program.
> > 'Stuffit' would do but...
> > 
> >       STUFFIT DOWNLOADS COME IN .HQX FORMAT ONLY
> > 
> > what the heck of a @#|{|#@{|@#{|@{|@#{#@{#
> customer service is that ????
> > 
> > They can't be clever enough to provide a
> self-expander download, or are
> > self-expanders, by mischance, patent-protected ?
> > 
> > </rantish>
> > 
> > Now if someone can send me a (Win/PK)ZIPped or
> GZIPped or targzipped
> > or bzip2-ed &c version of the thing, I'll be
> happy. (Please write me
> > before lest I receive several ones...)

I think the issue is that if you're using Stuffit
Expander on a Mac, you probably already have it
(provided you're using a reasonably recent version of
MacOS; I think >=7.6 is typical) and you probably only
want it as an upgrade. Or at least that's how Aladdin
Systems sees it.

I've never tried (never needed it) but de-Binhexing
code should be pretty easy to find if you look in the
right places. You have to be careful with it on
non-Mac platforms, though -- I do all my surfing
through a public library and Netscape 4.6 for Windows
cannot be convinced not to decode a Binhex file. End
result is that Mac files almost always get trashed on
the way home (resource fork issues and such). 

/Brian

=====
--

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:14:03 +0300
From: "J. A. =?iso-8859-1?Q?N=E4kk=E4l=E4j=E4rvi?=" <kaatunut@saunalahti.fi>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] lists @esoteric.sange.fi


Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
>
> > Right on!  Thanks Panu!  Everybody who wants to stay sane, move NOW.

> > ESOLANG itself has evolved to Finland.
>
> I'm not sure how I should take this, but... my intent, of course, was
not
> to put up competition for this list, and the main reason I founded the

> @esoteric.sange.fi lists was that the oft-requested split into
on-topic
> and off-topic lists could be achieved that way and that your ISP seems
not
> to be the most reliable one, according to your words. But for things
like:
>
> > Anyone who stays on this list to witness my continuing descent into
> > madness deserves EXACTLY what they get, as it's almost certain that
it's
> > only going to get weirder and weirder from here on in!
>
> there is absolutely no reason to move onto the @esoteric.sange.fi
lists,
> and besides, I don't think there will ever be consensus if you, Chris,

> among others, won't move. misc@esoteric.sange.fi would be a fine place
for
> you to mad in...
>
> As stated, I just put up the lists, and I won't be the one to say
whether
> or not we should move to using those.

I'm just a lurker, but by saying my opinion I temporarily turned into
something else.

I'm uncomfortable with this.sort of thing. Like I said before, who would

really not subscribe to the 'other' list if there's even a remote
possibility
it might contain something esoteric and interesting? And if not, who
/would/
subscribe to it? I don't have problems with subject classes, only with
threads that last for friggin' 1000 messages and wear out my 'D' key.
Splitting the list up, especially in this way where the "old" (this)
list
stays, probably means that I'll have to subscribe to *all* the lists if
I
don't want to miss your always so amusing, if sometimes rather
longwinded,
discussions :)

So I ask: who here wouldn't sign to every list in this esolang
mailinglist
mess?

I hope we'd just do something threaded, like a web-bbs, usenet or some
really
weird kludges. Um, whatever. Couldn't you use google's dejanews thingy
(once
it gets online) if you don't have news access?

 -Kaatunut





------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:53:39 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: We've been trumped


>Wow:
>         http://www.mbay.net/~cereus7/HotTEA.html

As silly as this is, it's great to see another language compiling for the 
theoretically-language-independent Java VM.  The best I did was a 68k-ish 
assembler for it.
Though right before this message I was thinking about writing a BF-to-JVM 
compiler...
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:56:25 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: An improved brainfuck interpreter


>I'm working on a Brainfuck compiler for Sun machines, as I mentioned a 
>while ago, and I thought of doing these optimizations and various others. 
>Then I realized that I would just be optimizing stupid people's code so it 
>would be as good as non-stupid people's code. And my sense of justice 
>rebelled against that. I think intelligence, and efforts to apply it well, 
>should be rewarded. So I'm not making those optimizations.

Particularly since ><, in runtimes that dynamically allocate their storage 
space (i.e. mine), may well cause an other kbyte or so to be allocated--a 
very useful trick.
+- on the other hand might make a very good NOP.  Not that NOPs are every 
really useful at this high of a level, but...
Ooooh...you should compile all those into the equivalent number of NOPs (or 
whatever the equiv op is on a SPARC).  That way you can claim to be 
optimizing, without actually speeding much up. :-)

I haven't played with a Sparc.  Do you have enough registers to cache a few 
cells around the memory pointer right in the processor?
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:57:54 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: [Rant] StuffIt: an unbootstrappable decompression utility


>I think the issue is that if you're using Stuffit
>Expander on a Mac, you probably already have it

*thinks*  *grimaces*  *head explodes*

>I've never tried (never needed it) but de-Binhexing
>code should be pretty easy to find if you look in the
>right places.

Get somebody here to send you their Brainf*ck interpreter for the Mac, and 
use that to write the de-Binhex routine as a bootstrap! :-)
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:00:09 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] lists @esoteric.sange.fi


>So I ask: who here wouldn't sign to every list in this esolang
>mailinglist
>mess?

There are a few, but I'm not one of them.  I agree with you.  I don't value 
this list so much for the esoteric programming side of it, but rather as a 
forum for a whole bunch of people smarter than I to toss things back and 
forth. :-)

Side note: I don't know if this has already been tackled, but the esomisc 
list should not be a subscriber to the esolang list.

Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:18:40 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: An improved brainfuck interpreter

>Particularly since ><, in runtimes that dynamically allocate their 
>storage space (i.e. mine), may well cause an other kbyte or so to be 
>allocated--a very useful trick.

Hmm. I may be dim. Why is it useful to allocate the space at some 
point before you're actually going to use it?

>+- on the other hand might make a very good NOP.  Not that NOPs are 
>every really useful at this high of a level, but...
>Ooooh...you should compile all those into the equivalent number of 
>NOPs (or whatever the equiv op is on a SPARC).  That way you can 
>claim to be optimizing, without actually speeding much up. :-)

:)

>I haven't played with a Sparc.  Do you have enough registers to 
>cache a few cells around the memory pointer right in the processor?

There are 31 general-purpose registers available at any given time 
(not always the same 31--there are 7 global registers plus a "window" 
of 24 that slides up and down a big "array" of registers by 16 when 
you enter or exit a function--and four of the ones in that window are 
used to store the address to return to &c.). So I could do that, 
yes--but right now I'm a bit too lazy.
-Daniel.


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:38:24 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: An improved brainfuck interpreter


>Hmm. I may be dim.

Unlikely.

>Why is it useful to allocate the space at some point before you're 
>actually going to use it?

Because the allocation process itself is generally slow, but doesn't really 
get much slower whether you're allocate 1 or 100 bytes.  You don't want to 
allocate each byte as its requested...rather, you allocate a few bytes 
ahead, so you only have to allocate every, say, 1024 steps, instead of 
every step.

>There are 31 general-purpose registers available at any given time (not 
>always the same 31--there are 7 global registers plus a "window" of 24 
>that slides up and down a big "array" of registers by 16 when you enter or 
>exit a function--and four of the ones in that window are used to store the 
>address to return to &c.). So I could do that, yes--but right now I'm a 
>bit too lazy.

That's incredibly familiar.  Anyone know what else uses that configuration?
It's pretty clear that the Sun people's first attempts used the 68000, 
where on every function call you often have to push all your registers to 
the stack, call the function, and then pop them all off. :-)

Anyway, caching the area around the memory cell pointer just occurred to me 
as I was reading your e-mail.  Similar to top-of-stack caching in other 
languages...when you do an increment, it simply saves you a mem-fetch/mem-read.
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:58:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [esoteric] Four-Dimensional Programming



On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:

> Tell you what - the next time you play Zork - don't try to "solve" it. 
> Resist such temptations.
> 
> Just try LIVING THERE.

That is one of my favorite quotes from you, Chris.  May I use it as a sig?




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:04:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] lists @esoteric.sange.fi



On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:

> a forum for a whole bunch of people smarter than I to toss things back and 
> forth. :-)

I wonder if that is true for >50% of the list subscribers.  Sort of the
opposite of the good car driving phenomena, i.e. that 90% of people think
that they are better than average drivers.



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:18:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [SETI Puzzle] Message the third, 7 February 1995



On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Gabriel McKean wrote:

> >> or maybe:
> >>         _
> >>       _/ \_
> >>     _/ \_/ \_
> >>    / \_/ \_/ \
> >>    \_/ \_/ \_/
> >>    / \_/*\_/ \
> >>    \_/ \_/ \_/
> >>    / \_/ \_/ \
> >>    \_/ \_/ \_/
> >>      \_/ \_/
> >>        \_/
> >
> >This appears to be the case for the "o"-delimited binary values.  The
> >first three "bitmaps," then represent approximations of circles (or
> >hexagons) with "radius" zero, one, and two (conveniently, the number in
> >the statement before).  Plus, there's a number later which maps to a
> >radius three.

n-delimited numbers represent "normal" bitmaps.

  ...
 .   .
.     .
.     .
.     .
 .   .
  ...

a circle of radius 3, which is equivilant to the o-bitmap.



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:26:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian Connors <connorbd@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Rant] StuffIt: an unbootstrappable decompression utility


--- "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net> wrote:
> 
> >I think the issue is that if you're using Stuffit
> >Expander on a Mac, you probably already have it
> 
> *thinks*  *grimaces*  *head explodes*

:-)

It's not quite as bizarre as it sounds, though...

> >I've never tried (never needed it) but de-Binhexing
> >code should be pretty easy to find if you look in
> the
> >right places.
> 
> Get somebody here to send you their Brainf*ck
> interpreter for the Mac, and 
> use that to write the de-Binhex routine as a
> bootstrap! :-)
> Cliff Biffle

This looks like as right a place as any. 

http://www.natural-innovations.com/boo/binhex.html

Includes a snippet of de-Binhex code for Unix. Binhex
4.0 is the de facto standard as it's 7-bit only and
therefore can be guaranteed to go through any pipe you
care to feed it through. I couldn't find any encoding
code, though.

/Brian

=====
--

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] lists @esoteric.sange.fi
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:16:41 -0300

On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:
> 
> > a forum for a whole bunch of people smarter than I to toss things back and 
> > forth. :-)
> 
> I wonder if that is true for >50% of the list subscribers.  Sort of the
> opposite of the good car driving phenomena, i.e. that 90% of people think
> that they are better than average drivers.

	That's an interesting thought. The fact that the list is quite diverse
as far as membership goes makes it interesting. I've found that generally,
whatever you're talking about, there's an expert on the matter on this list.
Simply being able to participate on this list has even raised my ego up a notch.

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:37:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [SETI Puzzle] Message the third, 7 February 1995

On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
[...]
> > >This appears to be the case for the "o"-delimited binary values.  The
> > >first three "bitmaps," then represent approximations of circles (or
> > >hexagons) with "radius" zero, one, and two (conveniently, the number in
> > >the statement before).  Plus, there's a number later which maps to a
> > >radius three.
> n-delimited numbers represent "normal" bitmaps.
>   ...
>  .   .
> .     .
> .     .
> .     .
>  .   .
>   ...
> a circle of radius 3, which is equivilant to the o-bitmap.

Which is an...interesting message to send.  "We do everything in sixes,
but just in case you *happen* to use rectangles, here's a mapping for
you...

Oh, well...

Incidentally, the "large" bitmap may be a "solar system" map.  After
tediously graphing the whole thing out (does anyone happen to have an
idea for a program to convert these numbers into pictures, already!?),
we get the following image:
	One disc, radius 3
	Space
	A "point" (a.k.a. Disc, radius 0)
	Space
	One disc, radius "1/2" (i.e., four hexagons in a cluster)
	Space
	One disc, radius 1/2 (this coincides with the image center)
	Space
	One disc, radius 1
	Twice the normally-allocated space
	Two discs, with no space between them
Since the first one is the largest, it leads to a fairly natural
(though completely speculative) conclusion that this is their star-
system.

We then spend almost the entire remainder of the message showing that
things (sometimes the same thing, sometimes different things) are equal
to filled discs of various sizes.  For example:
	xzxPoBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBoPxzx
		(xzx = disk of radius 2)
	1y1PoBoP1y1
		(1y1 = disk of radius 0)
	1y1PoBBBAAABoP1y1
		(1y1 = disk of radius 1/2)
	1y1PoBBBBBBBoP1y1
		(1y1 = disk of radius 1)

Of course, then this is where things start to become a little more
complex.  And I also haven't had time to draw up the bitmap which makes
up the final line.  Actually, I started, but it was a bit (no pun
intended) more complex than I expected, so I may have been doing it
wrong.  It might be an actual image of something, however.



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:39:25 -0300

On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> Steve Mosher wrote:
> >         Ah! That's why I've started to recieve double-messages from Catseye
> > now. Hm... what's the simplest way to trash the bounced messages, without
> > trashing the ones I'm receiving directly from Cat's Eye? There should be
> > something in the headers somewhere...
> 
> Or, reduce overall 'net traffic by sending a request to
> unsubscribe-list@catseye.mb.ca, perhaps?  They're all going through
> misc@esoteric.sange.fi now.

	Does that imply that the catseye list accepts posts from
non-subscribers? AAAAAAAAAND: Wouldn't it have been simpler if catseye were
subscribed to lang@esoteric.sange.fi?

> P.S.  I'm feeling jennyrous.  To EVERYONE who EVER fed this list or its
> predecessor (the Befunge mailing list) when they were hungry, I bestow
> upon thee 1 Zorkmid per ASCII character fed.  JUST for being rainy.  I'm
> feeling *that* nice.
> 
> Spend them wisely!  ;-)

	That's a lot of Zorkmids... I'm going to have to buy (or exchange them
for) a Bjork *Album* now...

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:42:01 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: We've been trumped

John Colagioia wrote:
>         http://webpages.mr.net/bobz/ttyquake/

There ya go!

4,000 Zorkmids to John!

But who is so frightened that they feel the need to get all "Punisher"
while going Spelunking?  I usually just prefer a set of Crooked Arrows,
myself!

> And he's not even *trying* to be weird...

How often do you see judoka breaking out in a sweat anyway?  :-)

_chris

-- 
"A PROCESSION of the damned. By the damned, I mean the excluded.
We shall have a procession of data that Science has excluded."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:53:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [SETI Puzzle] Message the third, 7 February 1995



On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, John Colagioia wrote:

> > a circle of radius 3, which is equivilant to the o-bitmap.
> 
> Which is an...interesting message to send.  "We do everything in sixes,
> but just in case you *happen* to use rectangles, here's a mapping for
> you...

Don't think of it as using rectangles, rather, think of cartesian
coordinates as being self-evident.  I could buy that.  We might send a
message in polar and rectangular forms just in case.  Just because 99% of
the time we use rectangular forms doesn't mean we wouldn't acknowledge the
other.


> Incidentally, the "large" bitmap may be a "solar system" map.
I'll buy that.




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:51:12 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [esoteric] Four-Dimensional Programming

"Gary P. Thompson II" wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> > Tell you what - the next time you play Zork - don't try to "solve" it.
> > Resist such temptations.
> > Just try LIVING THERE.
> That is one of my favorite quotes from you, Chris.  May I use it as a sig?

By all means!  Thanks, actually, I'm somewhat flattered!

I mean, I'm of the opinion that you can pretty much quote anything
someone says as long it's obvious it's a quote and/or it's apparent that
they don't mind, I think.  I mean, I didn't ask Charles Fort for
permission to use his phrase (in the opening of "Book of the Damned") in
my .sig, which is why I put (char)34's around it, as you can see below. 
I don't think his estate is going to sue me, and *shrug* if for whatever
reason it decides too, I'll deal with that when it comes...

But thanks for asking anyway, it's very polite and shows that you're a
very reasonable person!

_chris

-- 
"A PROCESSION of the damned. By the damned, I mean the excluded.
We shall have a procession of data that Science has excluded."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:07:49 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.

Steve Mosher wrote:
> > Or, reduce overall 'net traffic by sending a request to
> > unsubscribe-list@catseye.mb.ca, perhaps?  They're all going through
> > misc@esoteric.sange.fi now.
>         Does that imply that the catseye list accepts posts from
> non-subscribers?

I don't think so.  There's an account on sange.fi that's subscribed, so
list@catseye sends to it.  It reposts to misc@sange.

> AAAAAAAAAND: Wouldn't it have been simpler if catseye were
> subscribed to lang@esoteric.sange.fi?

Maybe.  But I'm almost certain that this list will suffer a whack when
MTS takes over Pangea.  It may come back up a short time after that (as
I still own the domain name catseye.mb.ca and will do my best to find an
option besides MTS for colocating)

As Panu said:

> [...] misc@esoteric seems to be becoming a huge trashcan of "everything
> on the earth" (and why not?) [...]

Why not indeed!  Everyone could use a Recycle Bin.

Imagine, we could hook a messed-up Markov process up to it and jennyrate
enough Zorkmids to buy that eSoTErIc mEtA-BrAY'N we've always wanted! 
;-)

_chris

-- 
"A PROCESSION of the damned. By the damned, I mean the excluded.
We shall have a procession of data that Science has excluded."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:11:40 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Whoops!

It's list-unsubscribe@catseye.mb.ca, NOT unsubscribe-list.

My bad.

_chris

-- 
"A PROCESSION of the damned. By the damned, I mean the excluded.
We shall have a procession of data that Science has excluded."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

From: "Gabriel McKean" <gmckean@wsu.edu>
Subject: Re: [SETI Puzzle] Message the third, 7 February 1995
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:26:51 -0700

>(does anyone happen to have an
>idea for a program to convert these numbers into pictures, already!?)

I think I'll pound out a program to do so over the weekend.  Before I start,
though, I'll ask if there're any objections to such a program being written
in Python and using Tk for drawing.



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:21:24 -0300

On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> Steve Mosher wrote:
> > > Or, reduce overall 'net traffic by sending a request to
> > > unsubscribe-list@catseye.mb.ca, perhaps?  They're all going through
> > > misc@esoteric.sange.fi now.
> >         Does that imply that the catseye list accepts posts from
> > non-subscribers?
> 
> I don't think so.  There's an account on sange.fi that's subscribed, so
> list@catseye sends to it.  It reposts to misc@sange.

	Yes, but if I respond to a post that originated from catseye it will be
addressed to the catseye list, and if I'm unsubscribed, it won't get posted...
right?

> > AAAAAAAAAND: Wouldn't it have been simpler if catseye were
> > subscribed to lang@esoteric.sange.fi?
> 
> Maybe.  But I'm almost certain that this list will suffer a whack when
> MTS takes over Pangea.  It may come back up a short time after that (as
> I still own the domain name catseye.mb.ca and will do my best to find an
> option besides MTS for colocating)

	Okay, I gotcha.

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:53:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [esoteric] Four-Dimensional Programming



On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:

> This morning I've been tinkering with a new language called Fourth (note 
> the U).  It's based on a four-dimensional maze posted to Slashdot several 
> months back.  It's basically a revamp to my Besmirch language, which nobody 
> really reacted to. :-)
> 
> Programs are a four-dimensional array of ASCII characters.  How does one 
> type a four-dimensional array?  Well, say your program was 3x3x3x3 
> characters.  It would look like this:
> 

This reminds me.  My text editor char is getting to be slightly more
professional/useable.  And it edits in 4d.  Might be of some use if I ever
implement a line-oriented mode.




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:16:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [esoteric] Esoterica site



On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:

> I've got a very raw site up called Esoterica, which will (eventually) 
> document the crazy stuff I come up with and provide a bounty of links to 
> other sites.  My four-dimensional Hello World is available there, and you 
> can even look at an image diagramming the flow of control through the 
> hypercube. :-)
> 
> http://www.cliff.biffle.org/esoterica/
> 
I have an evil idea for beatnik.  Since  the language is based on
words (or wordlike forms), it would be simple to write a search algorithm
which takes beatnik code in scrabble-scored form, and looks for it in a
text.  This is similar to that bible-code stuff that was going around
a few years ago.  Now, given the incredible amount of text-oriented
material available on the net, small programs should be found rather
easily(if somewhat slowly).

Anyone want to start looking for DVD-cracking code in the bible?





------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:23:55 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.

Should I change the 'reply-to' field to 'misc@esoteric.sange.fi'?

Do you have to be subscribed to misc to post to it, Panu?  I assume so.

Either way it creates an impedance problem.

But, I'll probably change it to that soon anyway.

Perhaps 'Reply to All' in your email (and then delete any addresses you
don't need) would work in the interim?

Steve Mosher wrote:
> Yes, but if I respond to a post that originated from catseye it will be
> addressed to the catseye list, and if I'm unsubscribed, it won't get
> posted... right?

_chris

-- 
"A PROCESSION of the damned. By the damned, I mean the excluded.
We shall have a procession of data that Science has excluded."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:30:48 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [esoteric] Esoterica site

"Gary P. Thompson II" wrote:
> I have an evil idea for beatnik.  Since  the language is based on
> words (or wordlike forms), it would be simple to write a search algorithm
> which takes beatnik code in scrabble-scored form, and looks for it in a
> text.

WOW!  10,000 Zorkmids to Gary!!!!

Normally I'd say "spend it wisely", but esoteric's kind of going through
a Golden Age at the moment... so you might as splurge.  Hey, arguably,
splurging occasionally is a wise thing to do, right?

_chris

P.S. ever wonder why almost every episode of _South Park_ starts with
  "[THIS] SHOULD NOT BE VIEWED BY ANYONE"
and ends with
  "Believe It!"
?

-- 
"A PROCESSION of the damned. By the damned, I mean the excluded.
We shall have a procession of data that Science has excluded."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:38:17 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [List-Meta] Stupid Question

Sunfall to-Ennien wrote:
> I seem to be dropping memory out of my ears lately.

Now THAT's gotta be worth a coupla hundred Zorkmids at least, if you can
figure out something to do with it...

> What's the proper format to subscribe to the various lists on sange.fi?  You'd think I'd have
> memorized majordomo format by now.  Is it sending mail to majordomo@esoteric.sange.fi with body
> being 'subscribe misc' or whatever?

An e-mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with
  subscribe lang
in the subject line worked for me.  In your case, subscribe misc, I
suppose.

> Agh. -scratches head- Maybe I should just go play some more Black & White.  Yeah.

Well, you don't accumulate many Zorkmids that way, but it's a damned
fine way to hone your treasure-hunting skills!

_chris

P.S.  What is the sound of one sun falling?  I figure you might know :-)

-- 
"A PROCESSION of the damned. By the damned, I mean the excluded.
We shall have a procession of data that Science has excluded."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:29:35 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] lists @esoteric.sange.fi


>I wonder if that is true for >50% of the list subscribers.  Sort of the
>opposite of the good car driving phenomena, i.e. that 90% of people think
>that they are better than average drivers.

I'd go a step farther than that and say 90% of drivers think they can 
-drive-, which is an overinflated number right there.  *grin*
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:30:53 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: [Rant] StuffIt: an unbootstrappable decompression utility


>Includes a snippet of de-Binhex code for Unix. Binhex
>4.0 is the de facto standard as it's 7-bit only and
>therefore can be guaranteed to go through any pipe you
>care to feed it through.

Remind me to hack a major section of internet backbone to convert ASCII to 
EBCDIC when going one way, and ASCII to ROT13 the other way.  Then we'll 
see about this "any pipe" stuff. *grin*

Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:31:48 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] lists @esoteric.sange.fi


>         That's an interesting thought. The fact that the list is quite 
> diverse
>as far as membership goes makes it interesting. I've found that generally,
>whatever you're talking about, there's an expert on the matter on this list.
>Simply being able to participate on this list has even raised my ego up a 
>notch.

Mine too, though for different reasons...my girlfriend -loves- this 
list.  She sits here and reads over my shoulder and giggles.
It's nice to have a girlfriend that can debug four-dimensional programs, 
too. :-)

Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:34:32 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: [SETI Puzzle] Message the third, 7 February 1995


>I think I'll pound out a program to do so over the weekend.  Before I start,
>though, I'll ask if there're any objections to such a program being written
>in Python and using Tk for drawing.

*sigh*  If only we had a BF-to-Tk interface.


Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:35:43 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: [esoteric] Four-Dimensional Programming


>This reminds me.  My text editor char is getting to be slightly more
>professional/useable.  And it edits in 4d.  Might be of some use if I ever
>implement a line-oriented mode.

Actually, I'm seriously considering using the revision-layers feature in MS 
Word to describe the character deltas as one moves along axis T...after 
all, that's what they're for!
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:39:03 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: [esoteric] Esoterica site


>Anyone want to start looking for DVD-cracking code in the bible?

LOL!  (throws some of the Zorkmids he had previously received *grin*)

Okay, that does it.  I've been thinking for the past several days that I 
should use some of my text-filtering neural net stuff from psychology to 
craft a programming language -backwards-...i.e. rather than defining 
commands, I say "The text of Moby Dick shall print the lyrics to the Time 
Warp," and the computer figures out the mappings.
Now I've gotta use it to cause random passages from the bible to produce DeCSS.

Of course, I could always follow in the footsteps of HQ9+...
Command:        Function:
God             Produce code to DeCSS
smite           Exit from program
doeth           Enter a loop
repeateth       Iterate
etc.
         *grin*
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:11:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sunfall to-Ennien <pwcast@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [List-Meta] Stupid Question

> > I seem to be dropping memory out of my ears lately.
> 
> Now THAT's gotta be worth a coupla hundred Zorkmids at least, if you can
> figure out something to do with it...

I've found it makes a damned fine fertilizer.  Problem is, the plants start spouting Objectivist
principles, and I have to beat them back with my copy of _GEB_ to get them back in line.  A little
frustrating, but boy, they do grow fast!

> An e-mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with
>   subscribe lang
> in the subject line worked for me.  In your case, subscribe misc, I
> suppose.

Appreciated.

> > Agh. -scratches head- Maybe I should just go play some more Black & White.  Yeah.
> 
> Well, you don't accumulate many Zorkmids that way, but it's a damned
> fine way to hone your treasure-hunting skills!

I ended up playing my review copy of Disney/Pixar's Toy Story Racer instead.  For two hours. 
Suprisingly solid game.

Indeed, the most annoying thing about it, by far, is the fact that the title really /is/
Disney/Pixar's Toy Story Racer.

My plants got even more brainfood when I realized that.  It's not as bad as everything for the
Playstation2 referring to the 'Memory Card (8 MB) (For Playstation2)'.  Over and over and over. 
There's something ludicrous about that amount of detail, I believe.

> _chris
> 
> P.S.  What is the sound of one sun falling?  I figure you might know :-)

It all depends on the number of mimes available to listen, and how many are crushed by the large
fiery mass.

Phil

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:00:25 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: DeCSS in major world religious texts

Well, so I've created a program to search for "Bible Codes."  For the 
uninitiated, the idea is that you lay out the text of some translation of 
the Christian Bible and/or the Jewish Torah on a matrix.  If you shuffle 
the dimensions of the matrix enough, you get crossword-like appearances of 
basically whatever words you want.  It works with any literary text, really 
(the most common example is Moby Dick, because it's similar in length).

So.  I've got my Bible Code program (written in good old QuickBASIC) 
searching for the source code to DeCSS in the Bible.  I've encoded it using 
a punctuation-symbol-to-letter-sequence system I've devised, because the 
authors of the Bible don't use curly brackets.

Though they should.  They really should.

Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

From: "shafalus" <shafalus@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [esoteric] Beatnik
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:35:00 +0200

Aren't the scores in Scrabble different in different countries? Will this be
taken into account? And what about the 50-point bonus for using all your
tiles?

Shaf


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:10:44 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [brainfuck] An improved brainfuck interpreter

On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Jeff Pinyan wrote:

> I'm curious if I could further optimize the multiplication idiom:
[...]
> This would be optimized to:
>
>   $cell[$p] += length($1) * length($2);
>
> However, this would not be good enough, for take this example:
[...]
>   $m[$p-1] += $m[$p] * 13;  # [ < +++++++++++++ > - ]
>   $m[$p] = 0;               # this too, as a side effect

This is what bfc (http://sange.fi/~atehwa-u/bf.tar.gz) does. In general,
spotting idioms with regexps is insufficient, because the regexps always
have to be aware of what the state on the tape is, i.e. what values the
cells contain before multiplication.

What bfc does is reduction of loops like

[->>+++>+<<<]

to

m[mp+2] += m[mp] * 3;
m[mp+3] += m[mp] /* * 1 */;
m[mp] = 0;

and loops like

[->[-]+<]

to (this uses actually two loop reductions)

if ( m[mp] ) m[mp+1] = 1;
m[mp] = 0;

> Now, I see several other optimizations:
>
>   1. +'s followed by -'s (and v.v.)

bfc combines all incs/decs in a block (from [ or ] to next [ or ]) for the
same tape location into a single m[mp+x] += y;

>   2. <'s followed by >'s (and v.v.)

bfc eliminates these where it can. The only places where <> can't be
eliminated are loops that "move" (contain asymmetric number of < and >),
and loops that include loops that move. These get converted into a mp+=x;
just before the block boundary. Other than that, mp+something is always
used.

>   3. > +  can become  $m[$p += 1] += 1  (and so on)

This is a consequence of the two techniques above.

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:51:20 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Test for openness


If this gets through, lang is an open-posting list.


Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh
atehwa@iki.fi






------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:53:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: [lang] [retro][brainf*ck]


I have joined Cliffle's push to bless those old PC's with a touch of the
strange and macabre.  A TI-99/4a version of brainf*ck is now avaiable in
TMS9900 assembler.  Befunge coming soon.







------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:59:32 +0000 (UTC)
From: Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>
Subject: Re: [Esoteric] salvage contest (was Re: [list-meta] lists 

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:

> Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, J. A. [iso-8859-1] N=3DE4kk=3DE4l=3DE4j=3DE4rvi wr=
ote:
>=20
> Oh, look what someone's mail client dragged in!
>=20
> Poor kaatunut@saunalahti.fi.  To have his name mangled so!
>=20
> <<shakes head>>

Indeed. It's not mangled in the jargon sense (irretrievable) though:

deltab@charizard ~/lab/word-chains $ mmencode -u -q
> > On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, J. A. [iso-8859-1] N=3DE4kk=3DE4l=3DE4j=3DE4rvi wr=
ote:
> > On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, J. A. [iso-8859-1] N=E4kk=E4l=E4j=E4rvi wrote:

Those are, at least for me, a-with-umlaut.

--=20
Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:18:44 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: ping

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:

> Well, I subscribed to the sange.fi lists (unsubscribing from the catseye
> list in the process), and haven't heard a peep.  Am I the only one that's
> bleeding edge here? :-)
> Cliff Biffle

Owcha. Knew something like this was going to happen. I had to take away
the forward from list@catseye to misc@esoteric, because list@catseye is
not open from postings outside. If it will be opened, I will resume the
forwarding (only now warning about that on beforehand) and it should be
safe to unsubscribe list@catseye.

Don't get mad at me; it just came as a surprise to me that list@catseye
was closed, so I have been trying to correct things as I can.

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:24:01 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: meow (was Re: [CLEARLY MAD. CLEARLY] general decline into insanity

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:

> Puff the Cat wrote:
> > If you can see this, it means my human made his mailing list open to
> > posts from non-subscribers, or so he informs me.
>
> Good girl!  Here, have a Puff-treat for your efforts.
>
> Maybe Panu can subscribe list@catseye to misc@esoteric again now?

Okay, now just to enable people to scream "Noooo!" before I do that, I'll
wait for one day. If no pre-complaints come in, I'll do the subscription
somewhere around 12:00 CET on Mon, 23.4.

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:25:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: meow (was Re: [CLEARLY MAD. CLEARLY] general decline into insanity

Let's try this again:  Apparently, the majordomo was offended by my
language, and forwarded me to Panu for disciplinary action.  This time,
I'll censor myself...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
I'd just as soon not.  I figure anyone interested in "everything" will
be inclined to s*bscr*b* to both, meaning that everyone has to either
choose one or learn to filter duplicates (which are only kinda-sorta
duplicates).  Ick.

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> 
> > Puff the Cat wrote:
> > > If you can see this, it means my human made his mailing list open to
> > > posts from non-s*bscr*b*rs, or so he informs me.
> >
> > Good girl!  Here, have a Puff-treat for your efforts.
> >
> > Maybe Panu can s*bscr*b* list@catseye to misc@esoteric again now?
> 
> Okay, now just to enable people to scream "Noooo!" before I do that, I'll
> wait for one day. If no pre-complaints come in, I'll do the subscription
> somewhere around 12:00 CET on Mon, 23.4.
> 
> Panu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 08:36:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: meow (was Re: [CLEARLY MAD. CLEARLY] general decline into insanity

I'd just as soon not.  I figure anyone interested in "everything" will
be inclined to subscribe to both, meaning that everyone has to either
choose one or learn to filter duplicates (which are only kinda-sorta
duplicates).  Ick.

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> 
> > Puff the Cat wrote:
> > > If you can see this, it means my human made his mailing list open to
> > > posts from non-subscribers, or so he informs me.
> >
> > Good girl!  Here, have a Puff-treat for your efforts.
> >
> > Maybe Panu can subscribe list@catseye to misc@esoteric again now?
> 
> Okay, now just to enable people to scream "Noooo!" before I do that, I'll
> wait for one day. If no pre-complaints come in, I'll do the subscription
> somewhere around 12:00 CET on Mon, 23.4.
> 
> Panu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 21:06:03 +0300 (EEST)
From: "Panu A. Kalliokoski" <atehwa@oiva.sange.fi>
Subject: [list-meta] stupid regexps: Re: meow (was Re: [CLEARLY MAD. CLEARLY]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, John Colagioia wrote:

> Let's try this again:  Apparently, the majordomo was offended by my
> language, and forwarded me to Panu for disciplinary action.  This time,
> I'll censor myself...

LOL, but I finally found those regexps (which are listar defaults, of
course... ouch) and took away most of the stupid .*something.* stuff. Did
I say something about listar's documentation? Grr...

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:54:38 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [list-meta] forwarding, again.


Well, nobody really argued about resuming the forwarding (John did, but I
think he will bear) so I did it. It should now be safe to subscribe to
misc@esoteric.sange.fi in lieu of list@catseye.mb.ca, and unsubscribe
list@catseye.mb.ca. Here "safe" means not going to lose any messages /
discussion.

Panu

Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh
atehwa@iki.fi




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:07:35 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:

> >The seismic waves idea is good, but too many people know EBCDIC.  I
> >propose baudot codes.
>
> Too many people know baudot.  Navajo.

I _must_ point out that Navajo is *the* cool language. It has _no_
verb-conjugation that is "regular", i.e. all verb are irregular, so it's
not possible to add verbs to the language. You can make new verbs somehow
with compounds, I don't remember...

I don't speak Navajo, but I'm really for any language in which verb 1
goes, when conjugated in persons, something like didook'ops, dodook'ops,
'dook'ops while verb 2 goes something like ha?andre', ha?ondre', ha?dre'

This, applied to programming languages, would be something like totally
context-dependent grammar: "if" takes statement blocks as "statement;
statement; statement" while "while" takes them as "[statement] [statement]
[statement]" (BTW: see where the custom of this list originates?)

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> Daniel Biddle wrote:
[...]
> > Whatever do ubiquity, reliability, consistency and accessibility have to
> > do with Esoteric Programming?
> *I* don't know, I just saw John playing a game of "Sink", so I joined
> in!
> http://users.ev1.net/~darkfox/pd/p66.html
> Score so far:
> John sunk newsgroups. I sunk the entire Internet, and smoke signals,
> too.

Well, if you want picky, *I* don't have reliable Usenet access.  I
assume, however, that I am not the only person in this boat.

Besides, if you want to play this game, I state flat-out that imaginary
persons are discriminated against on this list, ergo it should be moved
out of reality, and out of any fictional universe, too, unless all
entities coexist simultaneously.

Top *that*.



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:05:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:
> >Too many Chris Pressies have studied Opus-2 enough to parrot it
> >effectively.  Grunt.
> Grunt grunt grunt -grunt- grunt, grunt grunt grunt grunt GRUNT. Poot.

Heretic!  Blasphemer!!  Dipthong!!!



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [esoteric] Esoterica site
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:28:00 -0300

On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:
> >Anyone want to start looking for DVD-cracking code in the bible?
> 
> LOL!  (throws some of the Zorkmids he had previously received *grin*)
> 
> Okay, that does it.  I've been thinking for the past several days that I 
> should use some of my text-filtering neural net stuff from psychology to 
> craft a programming language -backwards-...i.e. rather than defining 
> commands, I say "The text of Moby Dick shall print the lyrics to the Time 
> Warp," and the computer figures out the mappings.
> Now I've gotta use it to cause random passages from the bible to produce DeCSS.
> 
> Of course, I could always follow in the footsteps of HQ9+...
> Command:        Function:
> God             Produce code to DeCSS
> smite           Exit from program
> doeth           Enter a loop
> repeateth       Iterate
> etc.
>          *grin*
> Cliff Biffle

	Ack! One Bjork Song Lyric for you! ("Beep-beep beep-be-beep beep beep")

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:37:00 -0300

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > Right. Guess how pissed off I was when I realised list@catseye is
> > closed... :)
> 
> Blah.
> 
> I could open it up, if that'd help, but then also will come the army of
> commercial spam robots!
> 
> hm... pessimistically, I almost might as well...
> 
> maybe it would be simpler to just use a newsgroup at this point huh?
> 
> comp.lang.esoteric ought to exist, I think.
> 
> thoughts?

	I really love lists which are also newsgroups. To help fight spam, you
could put some user-defined header line that says whether a message came from a
subscribed user or no. This would take some work, I suppose... Spam filters
could be made more easily, though, since you don't ever have to drop
a subscriber's posts by accident. Just a thought...

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Currency] Zorkmids
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:49:03 -0300

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> > > Do you know the Unicode character for the Zorkmids currency symbol?
> > I'll be the practical one, here, and nominate Unicode code point
> > 0x01B5 (Latin capital letter Z with stroke) as the currency symbol
> > for Zorkmids.
> 
> Fine by me...
> Can you send me a gif/jpeg of such beast?
> I hate frigging around with unicode.
> 
> btw the currency symbol for a Bjork Lyric is
> http://home.nvg.org/~thomasr/bjork/pic/tattoo2.gif
> (find THAT in unicode!)
> and for a whole songful it's just called a $bjork


	That reminds me... I'm reminded of a Burke. Any measure of anything is
exactly one Burke. It's like a self-similar quantity. The universe weighs one
Burke, as does the sun. You've always got a Burke of coffee. There /can be/ no
plural. Someone attacked me with this concept at, of course, a coffee house.

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:01:20 -0300

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, John Colagioia wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> > Ah!  It's decided, then!
> > Esoteric Programming should abandon the Internet totally!
> > (on the basis that not everyone can get reliable and consistent access!)
> > :-)
> 
> I'm all for smoke signals.  If you guys use enough lighter fluid for
> your plumes, I *should* be able to see just about everyone (except the
> Australian contingent) to relay them onward...

	Don't worry... we can designate repeator sites... the aussies can play
too. =) Of course... the challenge is to automate the whole process...
integrate it with computers. We can have SmokeNet or something.

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:04:17 -0300

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> Hmm... no, we can't alienate Australia like that.  It wouldn't be fair.
> 
> Besides, smoke signals aren't NEARLY destructive enough a form of
> communication.  All they do is waste fuel and pollute the air.
> 
> What we need - in order to reach EVERYONE - is something truly
> magnificent.  Let's launch nuclear warheads at remote stars, blowing
> them up in patterns so that they spell out the text on this mailing
> list.
> 
> A little slow, I know, but at least EVERYONE will have consistent and
> reliable access to it then; "ESOLANG?  Why, just look up at the night
> sky!"

	Only one problem with this. Smoke can be made by burning down forests.
The only investment you need to make is some eddylights. OTOH, nuking stars,
while everyone can read the list, participation is difficult. My supply of
nukes, for example, ran out a month ago when I felt the need to play
"Intergalactic Space Pinball." (Hey, anyone read/seen the Red Dwarf episode
where Lister trick-shot planets with a missile?)

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Poetry] three original poems!
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:10:31 -0300

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> _Owed to the Key of D_ by Chris Pressey
> _I've got Grease_ by Chris Pressey
> _Stop Light_ by Chris Pressey

	I'm terrified to admit it, but I'm becoming a fan of your poetry...

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

From: Rafal.Sulejman@extern.oppenheim.de
Subject: RE: [Poetry] three original poems!
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:14:04 +0200

> On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> > _Owed to the Key of D_ by Chris Pressey
> > _I've got Grease_ by Chris Pressey
> > _Stop Light_ by Chris Pressey
> 
> 	I'm terrified to admit it, but I'm becoming a fan of 
> your poetry...

I definitely have to agree with you. Espacially this Ode2D is great... :)

-----
Rafal M. Sulejman <Rafal.Sulejman@extern.oppenheim.de>



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:28:49 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

"Cliff L. Biffle" wrote:
> >Too many Chris Pressies have studied Opus-2 enough to parrot it
> >effectively.  Grunt.
> Grunt grunt grunt -grunt- grunt, grunt grunt grunt grunt GRUNT. Poot.

Poot, poot, poot.  Chicken.

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:41:21 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

John Colagioia wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> > Daniel Biddle wrote:
> [...]
> > > Whatever do ubiquity, reliability, consistency and accessibility have to
> > > do with Esoteric Programming?
> > *I* don't know, I just saw John playing a game of "Sink", so I joined
> > in!
> > http://users.ev1.net/~darkfox/pd/p66.html
> > Score so far:
> > John sunk newsgroups. I sunk the entire Internet, and smoke signals,
> > too.
> Well, if you want picky,

Hm... maybe we should take a vote on this one.

DO WE WANT PICKY?

Show of hands?

> *I* don't have reliable Usenet access. I
> assume, however, that I am not the only person in this boat.

<<anthropological documentary voice-over>>
Here we see just how easily the primate brain confuses the concepts
"me", "some people", and "not everybody"...

> Besides, if you want to play this game, I state flat-out that imaginary
> persons are discriminated against on this list,

On what evidence?  Haven't you been *reading* the list lately?  One of
the biggest contributers lately has been *Jenny*, for cryin' out loud! 
:-)

> ergo it should be moved
> out of reality, and out of any fictional universe, too, unless all
> entities coexist simultaneously.
> Top *that*.

I think we already did... by agreeing to abandon that "sum of all
quantum realities" crap, as Gary suggested.

I think you'll have to go beyond "real" and "imaginary" to find
something to sink next!

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:46:12 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [Sink] and other games (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

Steve Mosher wrote:
> > What we need - in order to reach EVERYONE - is something truly
> > magnificent.  Let's launch nuclear warheads at remote stars, blowing
> > them up in patterns so that they spell out the text on this mailing
> > list.
> > A little slow, I know, but at least EVERYONE will have consistent and
> > reliable access to it then; "ESOLANG?  Why, just look up at the night
> > sky!"
>         Only one problem with this. Smoke can be made by burning down forests.
> The only investment you need to make is some eddylights. OTOH, nuking stars,
> while everyone can read the list, participation is difficult.

Right; we'll also need social programs to help reduce the costs incurred
by personally owned and operated nuclear warheads and launch vehicles. 
Don't Ban the Bomb - Subsidize It... so that EVERYONE can have one! 
Only then will we achieve a state of true Mututally Assured Destruction!

> My supply of
> nukes, for example, ran out a month ago when I felt the need to play
> "Intergalactic Space Pinball." (Hey, anyone read/seen the Red Dwarf episode
> where Lister trick-shot planets with a missile?)

Applied Velikovsky Billiards!

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:56:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> John Colagioia wrote:
> > On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> > > Daniel Biddle wrote:
> > [...]
> > > > Whatever do ubiquity, reliability, consistency and accessibility have to
> > > > do with Esoteric Programming?
> > > *I* don't know, I just saw John playing a game of "Sink", so I joined
> > > in!
> > > http://users.ev1.net/~darkfox/pd/p66.html
> > > Score so far:
> > > John sunk newsgroups. I sunk the entire Internet, and smoke signals,
> > > too.
> > Well, if you want picky,
> Hm... maybe we should take a vote on this one.
> DO WE WANT PICKY?
> Show of hands?

I'll abstain...

> > *I* don't have reliable Usenet access. I
> > assume, however, that I am not the only person in this boat.
> <<anthropological documentary voice-over>>
> Here we see just how easily the primate brain confuses the concepts
> "me", "some people", and "not everybody"...

Nah.  It's unlikely "just me," which means it's likely "some people."

> > Besides, if you want to play this game, I state flat-out that imaginary
> > persons are discriminated against on this list,
> On what evidence?  Haven't you been *reading* the list lately?  One of
> the biggest contributers lately has been *Jenny*, for cryin' out loud! 
> :-)

That's what *she* says.

Errr...That she's imaginary, I mean.

> > ergo it should be moved
> > out of reality, and out of any fictional universe, too, unless all
> > entities coexist simultaneously.
> > Top *that*.
> I think we already did... by agreeing to abandon that "sum of all
> quantum realities" crap, as Gary suggested.

Nah.  That's pseudo-real.  I'm talking pure imaginary.  Stuff that's
physically discontinuous from all potential realities.

> I think you'll have to go beyond "real" and "imaginary" to find
> something to sink next!

Complex.  Which is, y'know...too complex.

OK, cut me some slack--it's our second day of 70+ degree heat, and I'm
wilting from it.  And apparently, our corporate climate control isn't
in charge until May or some idiocy like that.



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:19:26 -0400
From: Greg Velichansky <hmaon@bumba.net>
Subject: [procmail] [list-meta] recipe to eat message duplicates


I've subscribed to the new, Finnish lists and am already getting duplicates.
I'm not complaining, I'd just like to share the procmail recipe I'm trying to
use to deal with them. It's attached. I'd like to know if anyone has any better
ideas.

Technically, it doesn't eat duplicates, just those messages that have been
posted to a list on esoteric.sange.fi from the list at catseye.mb.ca.

gsv


-- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar --


# esoteric.sange.fi runs Listar and doesn't seem to rewrite the Reply-To header
:0:
* ^(Reply-To:).*catseye.mb.ca
* ^(X-Listar-version)
* ^(X-List:).*(misc|lang)
* ^(Errors-to:).*(misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi|lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi)
mail/eso-duplicates

:0 E:
* ^(From:|To:|Reply-To:|Cc:).*(catseye|esoteric.sange.fi|funge|Funge)
mail/cats-eye




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:23:09 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

John Colagioia wrote:
> > > *I* don't have reliable Usenet access. I
> > > assume, however, that I am not the only person in this boat.
> > <<anthropological documentary voice-over>>
> > Here we see just how easily the primate brain confuses the concepts
> > "me", "some people", and "not everybody"...
> Nah.  It's unlikely "just me," which means it's likely "some people."

OH!  Did you mean that you object to USENET on the basis that some
people *do* have consistent and reliable access to it?

In which case, I object to food on the basis that some of it is edible!

> > > Besides, if you want to play this game, I state flat-out that imaginary
> > > persons are discriminated against on this list,
> > On what evidence?  Haven't you been *reading* the list lately?  One of
> > the biggest contributers lately has been *Jenny*, for cryin' out loud!
> > :-)
> That's what *she* says.
> Errr...That she's imaginary, I mean.

Why, I was under the impression that you thought the whole list was a
figment of your imagination.  In this case, Jenny is just the only one
being *honest* about her reality-status, isn't she?

> > > ergo it should be moved
> > > out of reality, and out of any fictional universe, too, unless all
> > > entities coexist simultaneously.
> > > Top *that*.
> > I think we already did... by agreeing to abandon that "sum of all
> > quantum realities" crap, as Gary suggested.
> Nah.  That's pseudo-real.  I'm talking pure imaginary.  Stuff that's
> physically discontinuous from all potential realities.

OH!  Like THAT stuff, over THERE!  <<points>>

"It's sooooo imaginary that no one can even imagine it!!!"

> > I think you'll have to go beyond "real" and "imaginary" to find
> > something to sink next!
> Complex.  Which is, y'know...too complex.

What's so complex about combining real and imaginary elements?  Movie
theatres do it all the time.

I object to them on the basis that not everybody has consistent and
reliable access to them, though.

I mean, on the basis that *some* people *do* have consistent and
reliable access to them.

I mean, on the basis that sometimes their floors are sticky and it
freaks me out to hear "kzzt kzzt kzzt" as I walk around in them.

> OK, cut me some slack--

But if I do that, this "boat" you speak of (real? imaginary?
pseudo-real? surreal? complex? other (please specify ______)?) may begin
to drift away...

> it's our second day of 70+ degree heat, and I'm
> wilting from it.  And apparently, our corporate climate control isn't
> in charge until May or some idiocy like that.

Pocket fans and buckets of ice work pretty well, as I understand -
a facecloth too, when the ice melts you can dip it in the cold water and
hang it in front of the fan.  Of course, you probably want to keep it as
far away from the important electronics as possible...

Unless you like sufferring of course, in which case, feel free to keep
complaining!  :-)

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:48:25 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)


>OK, cut me some slack--it's our second day of 70+ degree heat, and I'm
>wilting from it.  And apparently, our corporate climate control isn't
>in charge until May or some idiocy like that.

Ah.  We dipped up into the 100s for the first time in late March. :-)
(We're unseasonably cold at the moment.  Almost long-sleeve 
weather.  Craaaazy.)


Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:44:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> John Colagioia wrote:
> > > > *I* don't have reliable Usenet access. I
> > > > assume, however, that I am not the only person in this boat.
> > > <<anthropological documentary voice-over>>
> > > Here we see just how easily the primate brain confuses the concepts
> > > "me", "some people", and "not everybody"...
> > Nah.  It's unlikely "just me," which means it's likely "some people."
> OH!  Did you mean that you object to USENET on the basis that some
> people *do* have consistent and reliable access to it?

I believe you have drifted into an entirely other conversation.  Should
you feel like returning to commenting on things I might actually have
said, feel free to contribute it.

> In which case, I object to food on the basis that some of it is edible!

Sure.  Go right ahead.  Object to everything.

> > > > Besides, if you want to play this game, I state flat-out that imaginary
> > > > persons are discriminated against on this list,
> > > On what evidence?  Haven't you been *reading* the list lately?  One of
> > > the biggest contributers lately has been *Jenny*, for cryin' out loud!
> > > :-)
> > That's what *she* says.
> > Errr...That she's imaginary, I mean.
> Why, I was under the impression that you thought the whole list was a
> figment of your imagination.  In this case, Jenny is just the only one
> being *honest* about her reality-status, isn't she?

You have an interesting set of impressions about me.  Do they have any
relation to comments I've made?  Or are you just showing how much more
evolved you are, growing out of the need for data...?

[...]
> > > > ergo it should be moved
> > > > out of reality, and out of any fictional universe, too, unless all
> > > > entities coexist simultaneously.
> > > > Top *that*.
> > > I think we already did... by agreeing to abandon that "sum of all
> > > quantum realities" crap, as Gary suggested.
> > Nah.  That's pseudo-real.  I'm talking pure imaginary.  Stuff that's
> > physically discontinuous from all potential realities.
> OH!  Like THAT stuff, over THERE!  <<points>>
> "It's sooooo imaginary that no one can even imagine it!!!"

No, no.  The stuff *behind* it.  Look, move *this* out of the way, and
this...gosh, I don't even *know* what the hell this is.  Ick...Well,
anyway, *that* is the stuff to which I'm referring.

But don't look too hard at it, otherwise it'll do something
unspeakable, unimaginable, and indescribable.

> > > I think you'll have to go beyond "real" and "imaginary" to find
> > > something to sink next!
> > Complex.  Which is, y'know...too complex.
> What's so complex about combining real and imaginary elements?  Movie
> theatres do it all the time.

They use neither.  They use the spam of fantasy and reality...

> I object to them on the basis that not everybody has consistent and
> reliable access to them, though.
> I mean, on the basis that *some* people *do* have consistent and
> reliable access to them.
> I mean, on the basis that sometimes their floors are sticky and it
> freaks me out to hear "kzzt kzzt kzzt" as I walk around in them.

If I have to actually spell this out for you in greater detail than I
already have, I'm going to recommend you take a day off or something.

> > OK, cut me some slack--
> But if I do that, this "boat" you speak of (real? imaginary?
> pseudo-real? surreal? complex? other (please specify ______)?) may begin
> to drift away...

Believe me, it's already drifting.

> > it's our second day of 70+ degree heat, and I'm
> > wilting from it.  And apparently, our corporate climate control isn't
> > in charge until May or some idiocy like that.
> Pocket fans and buckets of ice work pretty well, as I understand -
> a facecloth too, when the ice melts you can dip it in the cold water and
> hang it in front of the fan.  Of course, you probably want to keep it as
> far away from the important electronics as possible...

Alas, the electonics happen to be where I am.  Kinda goes with the job,
for reasons which I can't quite yet grasp.

> Unless you like sufferring of course, in which case, feel free to keep
> complaining!  :-)

I'd just as soon have the corporation-provided air conditioning turn
on, personally.  Seems like the most economical solution, overall.



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:28:39 -0300

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> John Colagioia wrote:
> > Besides, if you want to play this game, I state flat-out that imaginary
> > persons are discriminated against on this list,
> 
> On what evidence?  Haven't you been *reading* the list lately?  One of
> the biggest contributers lately has been *Jenny*, for cryin' out loud! 
> :-)

	*G* Man, did John ever walk into that one...

> I think you'll have to go beyond "real" and "imaginary" to find
> something to sink next!

	I hereby sink sink.

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:19:56 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)


>         I hereby sink sink.

What if I was to sink sinking sink?  Would sink be unsunk?
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:18:37 -0300

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:
> >         I hereby sink sink.
> 
> What if I was to sink sinking sink?  Would sink be unsunk?
> Cliff Biffle

	Hm. Good question. You'd probably interrupt the sinking of sink, and
sink would be left unsunk... once sunk, the sinking of sink could not be sunk
since sinking is sunk and .... WAIT! Who says you can't do X if X is sunk?

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:47:37 -0400
From: Greg Velichansky <hmaon@bumba.net>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

On Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:18:37PM -0300, Steve Mosher wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:

> 	Hm. Good question. You'd probably interrupt the sinking of sink, and
> sink would be left unsunk... once sunk, the sinking of sink could not be sunk
> since sinking is sunk and .... WAIT! Who says you can't do X if X is sunk?

I sink the doing of X if X is sunk.

What is this game, anyway?

gsv


------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:49:39 -0300

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Greg Velichansky wrote:
> > 	Hm. Good question. You'd probably interrupt the sinking of sink, and
> > sink would be left unsunk... once sunk, the sinking of sink could not be sunk
> > since sinking is sunk and .... WAIT! Who says you can't do X if X is sunk?
> 
> I sink the doing of X if X is sunk.

	I sunkenly sink the sinking of the doing of some sunken X. Ha!

> What is this game, anyway?

	Chris mentioned this in the first post in the thread: 

http://users.ev1.net/~darkfox/pd/p66.html

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:59:50 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

John Colagioia wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> > John Colagioia wrote:
> > > > > *I* don't have reliable Usenet access. I
> > > > > assume, however, that I am not the only person in this boat.
> > > > <<anthropological documentary voice-over>>
> > > > Here we see just how easily the primate brain confuses the concepts
> > > > "me", "some people", and "not everybody"...
> > > Nah.  It's unlikely "just me," which means it's likely "some people."
> > OH!  Did you mean that you object to USENET on the basis that some
> > people *do* have consistent and reliable access to it?
> I believe you have drifted into an entirely other conversation.

Er - maybe you should re-read the rules of the game of Sink...
http://users.ev1.net/~darkfox/pd/p66.html

Besides, Steve already sunk Sink.  (1,000*pi*e Zorkmids to Steve!)  But
I hereby fish it out again so we can play another round.

> Should
> you feel like returning to commenting on things I might actually have
> said, feel free to contribute it.

Alright, we can do that too.  Sink encompasses a lot.  Let's review:

CHRIS: comp.lang.esoteric ought to exist, I think.
JOHN: I heavily dislike newsgroups on the basis that not everyone can
get reliable and consistent access.

Nowhere did I say that you, or anyone, was going to be forced to use it
to the exclusion of all other methods of communication!

So, what I got out of your response was: because *you* dislike *all*
newsgroups, *we* ought *not* to create *any* new newsgroups.

Oh, QUITE LOGICAL.  QUITE.

So I assumed you were not, in fact, trying to reason with me, rather
merely starting off a game of Sink by sinking newsgroups.

So I joined in!

CHRIS: Esoteric Programming should abandon the Internet totally!
JOHN: I'm all for smoke signals.

See, at this point it's obvious that we had begun playing Sink.  I sunk
the Internet and you found a new object to sink, smoke signals, and
later on I sunk that one too.

> > In which case, I object to food on the basis that some of it is edible!
> Sure.  Go right ahead.  Object to everything.

Yes.  That *is* one of the winning strategies in the game of Sink! 
Otherwise... how would you get things to sink?!?

> > > > > Besides, if you want to play this game, I state flat-out that imaginary
> > > > > persons are discriminated against on this list,
> > > > On what evidence?  Haven't you been *reading* the list lately?  One of
> > > > the biggest contributers lately has been *Jenny*, for cryin' out loud!
> > > > :-)
> > > That's what *she* says.
> > > Errr...That she's imaginary, I mean.
> > Why, I was under the impression that you thought the whole list was a
> > figment of your imagination.  In this case, Jenny is just the only one
> > being *honest* about her reality-status, isn't she?
> You have an interesting set of impressions about me.

Thank you!

I daresay you seem to have a pretty boring set of impressions about me,
considering just how CLEARLY MAD I've been acting recently!

> Do they have any
> relation to comments I've made?

Yes!  This is a game of Sink!  See, it even says it in the Topic Box
<<points to the subject line of this e-mail>>!

> Or are you just showing how much more
> evolved you are, growing out of the need for data...?

<<looks around; tries to look at own back>>...it's showing?  Well that
would make sense, since I haven't done a lot to try to conceal my state
of being CLEARLY MAD.

Besides, it's not true.  *Everyone* needs to eat.  (YUM!)  But when I
ask for sweet potatoes, I want sweet potatoes, dammit! Not *lima beans*!

> [...]
> > > > > ergo it should be moved
> > > > > out of reality, and out of any fictional universe, too, unless all
> > > > > entities coexist simultaneously.
> > > > > Top *that*.
> > > > I think we already did... by agreeing to abandon that "sum of all
> > > > quantum realities" crap, as Gary suggested.
> > > Nah.  That's pseudo-real.  I'm talking pure imaginary.  Stuff that's
> > > physically discontinuous from all potential realities.
> > OH!  Like THAT stuff, over THERE!  <<points>>
> > "It's sooooo imaginary that no one can even imagine it!!!"
> No, no.  The stuff *behind* it.

Consider it sunk!  What about the stuff behind THAT?

> Look, move *this* out of the way, and
> this...gosh, I don't even *know* what the hell this is.  Ick...Well,
> anyway, *that* is the stuff to which I'm referring.

THAT stuff?  That stuff was obsolete thirty years ago!

> But don't look too hard at it, otherwise it'll do something
> unspeakable, unimaginable, and indescribable.

Exactly why I *don't* look too hard at it, and that seems to be what
lets me *see* it in the first place.

> > > > I think you'll have to go beyond "real" and "imaginary" to find
> > > > something to sink next!
> > > Complex.  Which is, y'know...too complex.
> > What's so complex about combining real and imaginary elements?  Movie
> > theatres do it all the time.
> They use neither.  They use the spam of fantasy and reality...

Interesting.  I was completely unable to obtain spam at the last movie
theatre I went to.  All they had was popcorn covered in Yellow Die #5,
bathtubs of ice water with a little Coca-Cola syrup in it somewhere, and
fourty-cubic-Burke boxes of Smarties.

Certainly no overprocessed meat products on sale at the concession
stand.

> > I object to them on the basis that not everybody has consistent and
> > reliable access to them, though.
> > I mean, on the basis that *some* people *do* have consistent and
> > reliable access to them.
> > I mean, on the basis that sometimes their floors are sticky and it
> > freaks me out to hear "kzzt kzzt kzzt" as I walk around in them.
> If I have to actually spell this out for you in greater detail than I
> already have, I'm going to recommend you take a day off or something.

No, see, you're not playing Sink very well, here.  Which is strange,
because you've demonstrated a remarkable aptitude for it thus far!

"I sink you, go away" is just about the crudest possible maneouver in
Sink, and makes for a terribly uninteresting game.  Any practiced Sink
player learns this pretty quickly.  Solo Sink isn't very much fun!

(Besides, I just STOLE your football.  Live with it!  :-)

> > Unless you like sufferring of course, in which case, feel free to keep
> > complaining!  :-)
> I'd just as soon have the corporation-provided air conditioning turn
> on, personally.  Seems like the most economical solution, overall.

I agree!  So turn it on, f***!  You *work* for the corporation, right? 
It's not as if people are going to *hate* you for it, are they? 
*They're* all melting too!  Appeal to their dislike of *sweat*!  It's
not conducive to *business*!

If they stop you, for some reason, then you can get the ice/fan, set it
up, and if it destroys their electronics, that's not your fault; all
they'd have to do is let you turn on the A/C and then you wouldn't have
to resort to such drastic measures.

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:10:34 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

Chris Pressey wrote:
> CHRIS: comp.lang.esoteric ought to exist, I think.
> JOHN: I heavily dislike newsgroups on the basis that not everyone can
> get reliable and consistent access.
> 
> Nowhere did I say that you, or anyone, was going to be forced to use it
> to the exclusion of all other methods of communication!

And nowhere did John say that his feelings about newsgroups should 
influence anyone's option to fire off a newgroup command.

Chris, I'm sure you don't care, but you're getting no quatloos from
me this week.

-R


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:27:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> John Colagioia wrote:
[...]
> > > > > > Besides, if you want to play this game, I state flat-out that imaginary
> > > > > > persons are discriminated against on this list,
> > > > > On what evidence?  Haven't you been *reading* the list lately?  One of
> > > > > the biggest contributers lately has been *Jenny*, for cryin' out loud!
> > > > > :-)
> > > > That's what *she* says.
> > > > Errr...That she's imaginary, I mean.
> > > Why, I was under the impression that you thought the whole list was a
> > > figment of your imagination.  In this case, Jenny is just the only one
> > > being *honest* about her reality-status, isn't she?
> > You have an interesting set of impressions about me.
> Thank you!

Well, they certainly are different.

> I daresay you seem to have a pretty boring set of impressions about me,
> considering just how CLEARLY MAD I've been acting recently!

Protesting too much and all that.  It all just doesn't ring true.
Sorry 'bout that...

> > Do they have any
> > relation to comments I've made?
> Yes!  This is a game of Sink!  See, it even says it in the Topic Box
> <<points to the subject line of this e-mail>>!

Sure.  I could see that.  If you really want.

> > Or are you just showing how much more
> > evolved you are, growing out of the need for data...?
> <<looks around; tries to look at own back>>...it's showing?  Well that
> would make sense, since I haven't done a lot to try to conceal my state
> of being CLEARLY MAD.
> Besides, it's not true.  *Everyone* needs to eat.  (YUM!)  But when I
> ask for sweet potatoes, I want sweet potatoes, dammit! Not *lima beans*!

Rocks and twigs are also edible, in the classical sense, I should point
out.  They're just not nearly as digestible or nutritious.  They're
closer to potatoes, sweet or otherwise, however.

> > [...]
> > > > > > ergo it should be moved
> > > > > > out of reality, and out of any fictional universe, too, unless all
> > > > > > entities coexist simultaneously.
> > > > > > Top *that*.
> > > > > I think we already did... by agreeing to abandon that "sum of all
> > > > > quantum realities" crap, as Gary suggested.
> > > > Nah.  That's pseudo-real.  I'm talking pure imaginary.  Stuff that's
> > > > physically discontinuous from all potential realities.
> > > OH!  Like THAT stuff, over THERE!  <<points>>
> > > "It's sooooo imaginary that no one can even imagine it!!!"
> > No, no.  The stuff *behind* it.
> Consider it sunk!  What about the stuff behind THAT?

The unimaginable thingie over there?  If you want.  It's not my cup of
tea.  It probably should have gone along with the other stuff,
actually.  Not unlike my cup of tea.

> > Look, move *this* out of the way, and
> > this...gosh, I don't even *know* what the hell this is.  Ick...Well,
> > anyway, *that* is the stuff to which I'm referring.
> THAT stuff?  That stuff was obsolete thirty years ago!

True.  But still appropriate to the topic at hand.  Or is that a foot?

> > But don't look too hard at it, otherwise it'll do something
> > unspeakable, unimaginable, and indescribable.
> Exactly why I *don't* look too hard at it, and that seems to be what
> lets me *see* it in the first place.

Nah.  It's just because this week is on the violet side of three.
Other workdays, you're lucky if you can smell the aftershocks.

> > > > > I think you'll have to go beyond "real" and "imaginary" to find
> > > > > something to sink next!
> > > > Complex.  Which is, y'know...too complex.
> > > What's so complex about combining real and imaginary elements?  Movie
> > > theatres do it all the time.
> > They use neither.  They use the spam of fantasy and reality...
> Interesting.  I was completely unable to obtain spam at the last movie
> theatre I went to.  All they had was popcorn covered in Yellow Die #5,
> bathtubs of ice water with a little Coca-Cola syrup in it somewhere, and
> fourty-cubic-Burke boxes of Smarties.
> Certainly no overprocessed meat products on sale at the concession
> stand.

They're not going to just *give* them to you.  You have to know who to
ask.

Besides, did you check through all the Smarties?  Frothy cubist Burkes
of 'em are certain to contain nigh anything.  And then some.

> > > I object to them on the basis that not everybody has consistent and
> > > reliable access to them, though.
> > > I mean, on the basis that *some* people *do* have consistent and
> > > reliable access to them.
> > > I mean, on the basis that sometimes their floors are sticky and it
> > > freaks me out to hear "kzzt kzzt kzzt" as I walk around in them.
> > If I have to actually spell this out for you in greater detail than I
> > already have, I'm going to recommend you take a day off or something.
> No, see, you're not playing Sink very well, here.  Which is strange,
> because you've demonstrated a remarkable aptitude for it thus far!

It's not really play if you have to stick with it, now is it...

> "I sink you, go away" is just about the crudest possible maneouver in
> Sink, and makes for a terribly uninteresting game.  Any practiced Sink
> player learns this pretty quickly.  Solo Sink isn't very much fun!

Maybe not to you.  Of course, that would appear to be the eventual
goal, regardless of motivation and hue.

> (Besides, I just STOLE your football.  Live with it!  :-)

American or European?  Or African, for that matter?

[...]



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:28:54 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> Chris Pressey wrote:
> > CHRIS: comp.lang.esoteric ought to exist, I think.
> > JOHN: I heavily dislike newsgroups on the basis that not everyone can
> > get reliable and consistent access.
> > Nowhere did I say that you, or anyone, was going to be forced to use it
> > to the exclusion of all other methods of communication!
> And nowhere did John say that his feelings about newsgroups should
> influence anyone's option to fire off a newgroup command.

True!  But you'll note I was playing "Raise" before John started playing
"Sink".  I'm not claiming I was playing "Logical Debate."  I'm claiming
that it's clear that "Logical Debate" is not what my game of "Raise"
evolved into.

I could have chosen to continue to play "Raise", but I figured that
wouldn't work, because John wasn't playing "Raise", he was playing
"Sink", so I started playing "Sink" too!

> Chris, I'm sure you don't care, but you're getting no quatloos from
> me this week.

Thank you!  Jenny is quite happy to do without the rancid timbits of the
moral relativists!  Or at least, that's what she *says*... she's kind of
a freak, though, even as faeries go.

And thank you for playing "Referee".  That's very cool, I like that
you're paying attention to this CLEARLY MAD chatter, as I have a feeling
that this "Raise/Sink" stuff will come in as fairly important if you're
going to write that Russell-composed alien mandala anytime soon... ;-)

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:52:26 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)



Chris Pressey wrote:
> 
> Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> > Chris Pressey wrote:
> > > CHRIS: comp.lang.esoteric ought to exist, I think.
> > > JOHN: I heavily dislike newsgroups on the basis that not everyone can
> > > get reliable and consistent access.
> > > Nowhere did I say that you, or anyone, was going to be forced to use it
> > > to the exclusion of all other methods of communication!
> > And nowhere did John say that his feelings about newsgroups should
> > influence anyone's option to fire off a newgroup command.
> 
> True!  But you'll note I was playing "Raise" before John started playing
> "Sink".  I'm not claiming I was playing "Logical Debate."  I'm claiming
> that it's clear that "Logical Debate" is not what my game of "Raise"
> evolved into.
> 
> I could have chosen to continue to play "Raise", but I figured that
> wouldn't work, because John wasn't playing "Raise", he was playing
> "Sink", so I started playing "Sink" too!

Perhaps we should start playing "Be/Do" instead of playing "Play".

Or perhaps we should start a Nomic list.

-R


------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: [Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:58:12 -0300

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> Perhaps we should start playing "Be/Do" instead of playing "Play".
> 
> Or perhaps we should start a Nomic list.
> 
> -R

	With all the sinking going on, this is getting somewhat Nomicish... I
tried to play it in highschool... but the mojo wasn't there...

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:59:03 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

Chris Pressey wrote:
> Thank you!  Jenny is quite happy to do without the rancid timbits of the
> moral relativists! 

Oh, that reminds me. After attending a performance of the Carnegie Hall
Jazz band at Davies Hall in SF last night, I withdraw at least 75% of 
my contention that booing is rude. Walking out while the band is playing,
now that's rude.

> And thank you for playing "Referee".  That's very cool, I like that
> you're paying attention to this CLEARLY MAD chatter...

Well, you know, I'm a man of leisure now, plenty of spare time...

But I dispute any claim that I'm playing "Referee" in this conversation.

> if you're
> going to write that Russell-composed alien mandala anytime soon... ;-)

As if I'm going to get around to it any time soon.

-r


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:58:15 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <keith@digital-crew.com>
Subject: [lang] [Not Esoteric] [Scripting Language] Eloi


Ok, I'm not posting any language-related stuff to the catseye list anymore.

I was going over some old archives of mine, sorting through crap to free up discspace 
when I came across an interface language which I'd designed many years ago. Needless 
to say, it was ugly and had a crappy, awkward syntax. I took the code sample I had and 
started fiddling around with it until I came up with a language which actually seems 
fairly usable. I'm posting the file here to get opinions -- more details in the 
source.

K.




-- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar --
-- File: eloi.txt

#
# Squeeze v0.01
# by Keith Gaughan
#
# This file (K) Keith Gaughan, 2001. All rites reversed.
#
# Eloi scripting language (C) Keith Gaughan, 2001. Licence to be decided.
#
# This script is a demonstration of the Eloi (let's see what animal O'Reilly
# choose for that! I'm rather hoping it'd be a dolphin though.) scripting
# language. The language is a mish mash of the declarative, functional,
# imperetive and messaging paradigms.
#
# It's not really esoteric I know, but I'm posting it to get some opinions
# on it. I've 'designed' (train of thought & fiddling) the syntax to keep
# the parser simple while still keeping the language easy to understand. It
# looks to me a bit like the offspring of logo and python with a bit of
# javascript in there too. It has prototype-based objects. I didn't mean it
# to look like this, it just happened.
#
# Objects are declared as follows:
#
# <PrototypeName> [<Parent>] [As <Alias>]:
#
# Declaring an alias allows the object to be addressed directly, rather than
# looking it up in the parent's dictionary. If you state the parent object,
# but don't specify a subscript, it's bunged onto the end of the parent's
# child object dictionary, otherwise it's inserted at a given position. This
# is not inheritence, it's an object hierarchy like the W3C DOM.
#
# Some syntactical sugar -- you can create base-level aliases to save
# yourself from RSI as follows:
#
# Alias <Long.Alias> As <ShortAlias>
#
# eg.
#
# Alias SaveWindow.OkButton As Ok
#
# now you can use
#
# Trigger Ok.OnClick
#
# and
#
# Trigger SaveWindow.OkButton.OnClick
#
# which mean the same thing as Ok and SaveWindow.Ok refer to the same thing.
#
# It supports partial functions (some of the functional part), event-driven
# objects & State Triggers (my new and improved name for Virtual Variables)
# (the messaging part). The imperetive bit's obvious enough. Objects, once
# declared, are pretty much autonomous. Even in this example, there should
# be enough to make it Turing-Equivalent. And it's not even finished!
#
# As a scripting language, it pretty much kicks Tcl's ass IMO. The objects
# created below implement a desktop interface to a command for squashing
# executables. The UI objects are for RISC OS, so if some of the terminology
# is confusing, that's probably why. Any questions, just ask.
#
# Notes: Events occur synchronously. It doesn't matter what order objects
# are declared in -- declarations are asynchronous. The language is not case
# sensitive, nor is it easily obfuscatable, though wait for the slightly
# incompatible version from M$ which is :-)
#
# Coming soon: PINKY, an esolang in which a cartoon character, a neural net
# and State Triggers are all spliced together into a simple yet horrifyingly
# difficult to implement mess. But the real question is... is it an acronym
# or a word?
#

# Global Variables.
Set InputFile = ''

# Define the Task object. This creates the task and contains various details
# about it.
Task:
    Set Name = 'Squeeze'
    Set MessageFile = '<Obey$Dir>.Messages'

# Create an iconbar icon. Objects do not need to be given an alias if they
# do not need to be referenced.
Icon IconBar:
    Set Sprite = '!Squeeze'
    Set Text = 'Squeeze'

    # This event is triggered when an Absolute file is dragged onto this
    # icon.
    OnDragTo 0xFF8:
        Set InputFile = Event.Filename
        Set SaveWindow.Filename = Event.Filename
        OpenWindow SaveWindow

    # This event is triggered if no other OnDragTo events match the current
    # OnDragTo event.
    OnDragTo x:
        Report Task.ReadMessage 'UnsupportedFiletype'

    # When the Menu button is clicked on this icon, this event is triggered.
    # It opens a menu above the iconbar icon.
    OnClick MENU_BUTTON:
        OpenIconBarMenu IbMenu

# Creates a menu. This is used for the iconbar.
Menu As IbMenu:
    Set Title = 'Squeeze'

# The subscripting isn't necessary, but it's still a good idea to
# include it.
MenuItem IbMenu[0]:
    Set Text = 'Info'
    Set SubMenu = InfoWindow

MenuItem IbMenu[1]:
    Set Text = 'Quit'

    OnClick:
        # Quit the script. End forces any objects which exist to be
        # destroyed and code execution to cease. If there are no objects and
        # the end of the file is reached, this is implicit.
        End

# Loads a window and gives it an alias.
Window As InfoWindow:
    Set Template = 'info'

Window As SaveWindow:
    Set Template = 'save'

Icon SaveWindow[0]:
    # When the icon is dragged, this event is triggered.
    OnDrag:
        Set Event.Filename = SaveWindow.Filename

    # When a dragged icon is dropped, this event is triggered.
    OnDrop:
        Set SaveWindow.Filename = Event.Filename
        Trigger SaveWindow.OkButton.OnClick

Icon SaveWindow[1] As Filename:
    # When Return is pressed in this icon, this event is triggered.
    OnKeypress [13]:
        Trigger SaveWindow.OkButton.OnClick

Icon SaveWindow[2] As OkButton:
    OnClick:
        # quotes can be used. To get a literal quote in a string, double it.
        # You don't need to double single quotes enclosed in double quotes
        # or visa versa.
        Call '<Squeeze$Dir>.Squeeze $InputFile$ $SaveWindow.Filename$'
        CloseWindow SaveWindow




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:46:23 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

Avert your eyes, lest ye witness a really ripping round of Sink, the
"No Mercy" version... with no limits to wonking either, naturally...

John Colagioia wrote:
> > > > > > > Besides, if you want to play this game, I state flat-out that imaginary
> > > > > > > persons are discriminated against on this list,
> > > > > > On what evidence?  Haven't you been *reading* the list lately?  One of
> > > > > > the biggest contributers lately has been *Jenny*, for cryin' out loud!
> > > > > > :-)
> > > > > That's what *she* says.
> > > > > Errr...That she's imaginary, I mean.
> > > > Why, I was under the impression that you thought the whole list was a
> > > > figment of your imagination.  In this case, Jenny is just the only one
> > > > being *honest* about her reality-status, isn't she?
> > > You have an interesting set of impressions about me.
> > Thank you!
> Well, they certainly are different.

POINTS FOR SURPRISE: 0

> > I daresay you seem to have a pretty boring set of impressions about me,
> > considering just how CLEARLY MAD I've been acting recently!
> Protesting too much and all that.

You should learn to watch your valency.  You'll put an eye out someday!

<<sits back, giggling>>  "To WHOM were you referring, Scout?"

> It all just doesn't ring true.

Did you try *listening*?

*rrrring*

*rrrring*

*rrrring*

> Sorry 'bout that...

No matter how many times you apologize to the phone, the ringing won't
stop.  I'm sorry.  *shrug*  That's just how phones WORK.  <<waves hands
in frustration>>  I thought you said you worked for the telephony
industry.

> > > Do they have any
> > > relation to comments I've made?
> > Yes!  This is a game of Sink!  See, it even says it in the Topic Box
> > <<points to the subject line of this e-mail>>!
> Sure.  I could see that.  If you really want.

[Sink Time-Out]

Well, I'm only asking you to be reasonable, right?  If we're going to
play Sink, we should probably play Sink.  If we're going to play some
other game we should probably announce that fact.

I can totally see anyone thinking that the games of Raise and Sink are
just time-wasters, and sure, they waste time, any game can.  So if you
want to not play them, that's fine.  But then, you have to not play
them, you have to find or make up some other game to play.  Yes?

btw, here's your football back.  I apologize, I don't ordinarily like to
resort to such petty means but I thought you deserved it at the time.

[Sink Time-In]

> > > Or are you just showing how much more
> > > evolved you are, growing out of the need for data...?
> > <<looks around; tries to look at own back>>...it's showing?  Well that
> > would make sense, since I haven't done a lot to try to conceal my state
> > of being CLEARLY MAD.
> > Besides, it's not true.  *Everyone* needs to eat.  (YUM!)  But when I
> > ask for sweet potatoes, I want sweet potatoes, dammit! Not *lima beans*!
> Rocks and twigs are also edible, in the classical sense, I should point
> out.  They're just not nearly as digestible or nutritious.  They're
> closer to potatoes, sweet or otherwise, however.

<<watches John run down the infield>>

<<waves hands>>  I'm over here.

[Sink Time-Out]

OK.  That was a good *tangential* sink maneouver.  However, again,
anyone can go off and sink whatever objects lying around the playfield
they happen to find.  For example, just because stones are classically
considered inedible and non-nutritious does not mean that certain kinds
of parrots in the Amazon do not find clay to be a critical component
of their diet to cancel out the poisoning effects of the beans that
compose the rest of their food intake.

See?  Tangential sinks are fun, but it's only a step away from that, to
splitting into two games of Solo Sink, and, well, see what I said about
Solo Sink.  Group Sink is more fun I think!

[Sink Time-In]

Yo, I'm over here!  And my point stands.  Rocks and twigs, like lima
beans, are *not* sweet potatoes!  Neither are horseradishes or
horsecarriages or horses!

> > > [...]
> > > > > > > ergo it should be moved
> > > > > > > out of reality, and out of any fictional universe, too, unless all
> > > > > > > entities coexist simultaneously.
> > > > > > > Top *that*.
> > > > > > I think we already did... by agreeing to abandon that "sum of all
> > > > > > quantum realities" crap, as Gary suggested.
> > > > > Nah.  That's pseudo-real.  I'm talking pure imaginary.  Stuff that's
> > > > > physically discontinuous from all potential realities.
> > > > OH!  Like THAT stuff, over THERE!  <<points>>
> > > > "It's sooooo imaginary that no one can even imagine it!!!"
> > > No, no.  The stuff *behind* it.
> > Consider it sunk!  What about the stuff behind THAT?
> The unimaginable thingie over there?  If you want.

Grabbed!  And... SUNK!

<<chris does an *annoying* little victory dance on the 10-Burke line>>

> It's not my cup of
> tea.  It probably should have gone along with the other stuff,
> actually.  Not unlike my cup of tea.

<<Chris is about to grab the cup and sink it, then pauses...>>

That's close, I guess.  You can try again if you like.  It's *your* cup
of tea, I'd feel bad sinking it without your permission.

> > > Look, move *this* out of the way, and
> > > this...gosh, I don't even *know* what the hell this is.  Ick...Well,
> > > anyway, *that* is the stuff to which I'm referring.
> > THAT stuff?  That stuff was obsolete thirty years ago!
> True.  But still appropriate to the topic at hand.

Indeed!  It may in fact be too *new* for our purposes.  Can't trust
these new-fangled gadgets after all, no one understands them, we had
better stick to tradition in this instance!  Tradition has never steered
us wrong!

> Or is that a foot?

I count three, making it a yard.

> > > But don't look too hard at it, otherwise it'll do something
> > > unspeakable, unimaginable, and indescribable.
> > Exactly why I *don't* look too hard at it, and that seems to be what
> > lets me *see* it in the first place.
> Nah.  It's just because this week is on the violet side of three.
> Other workdays, you're lucky if you can smell the aftershocks.

I agree.  And you probably suspected that I would, given that you're
presumably aware that I'm CLEARLY MAD by now... so why did you preface
with a "Nah"?  To attempt to *make* me disagree?

Which seems reasonable, after all when I ask for sweet potatoes I'm not
asking for horses.  If I ate a horse, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't agree
with me at all!  I'd be on the toilet for weeks!

("Shut *up*, Jenny!  You're being a twit."  "I know, but this guy
deserves it!")

> > > > > > I think you'll have to go beyond "real" and "imaginary" to find
> > > > > > something to sink next!
> > > > > Complex.  Which is, y'know...too complex.
> > > > What's so complex about combining real and imaginary elements?  Movie
> > > > theatres do it all the time.
> > > They use neither.  They use the spam of fantasy and reality...
> > Interesting.  I was completely unable to obtain spam at the last movie
> > theatre I went to.  All they had was popcorn covered in Yellow Die #5,
> > bathtubs of ice water with a little Coca-Cola syrup in it somewhere, and
> > fourty-cubic-Burke boxes of Smarties.
> > Certainly no overprocessed meat products on sale at the concession
> > stand.
> They're not going to just *give* them to you.  You have to know who to
> ask.

Indeed, I asked the girl behind the concession stand.  She didn't know
what I was talking about.  So I asked the usher.  He gave me some ticket
stubs so I ate those instead.  So I talked to the manager.  He told me
the spam was locked up... "for my own good."

"Right!" I said.  I figured this guy wasn't going to budge, games of
Sink, Raise, Debate, or otherwise.  Come to think about it, I didn't
feel like eating spam anyway.  Who the F*** likes SPAM???  **barf**  So
I sat back and watched the movie, unfettered by spam.  It was great!  I
never went back to eating spam.  My taste buds do not object to that
decision in the slightest...

> Besides, did you check through all the Smarties?  Frothy cubist Burkes
> of 'em are certain to contain nigh anything.  And then some.

That is true.  In fact, I once bought boxes of Smarties left and right
because "20% OF BOXES CONTAIN A FREE PRIZE!" was labelled on them...
until I ran out of money, and barfed Smarties on my bathroom door!

I looked in all the boxes and in not one of them did I find a free
prize!  I was P$SSED.  Until I realized I was looking TOO HARD!  If you
cut off the top 20% of the box you can use it as a HAT, and THAT is the
FREE PRIZE!  Now ALL the boxes contain previously unimaginable goodies!

> > > > I object to them on the basis that not everybody has consistent and
> > > > reliable access to them, though.
> > > > I mean, on the basis that *some* people *do* have consistent and
> > > > reliable access to them.
> > > > I mean, on the basis that sometimes their floors are sticky and it
> > > > freaks me out to hear "kzzt kzzt kzzt" as I walk around in them.
> > > If I have to actually spell this out for you in greater detail than I
> > > already have, I'm going to recommend you take a day off or something.
> > No, see, you're not playing Sink very well, here.  Which is strange,
> > because you've demonstrated a remarkable aptitude for it thus far!
> It's not really play if you have to stick with it, now is it...

Tell that to an NFL linebacker or a concert pianist.

Then tell that to a improv comic or a jazz musician.

Lighten up, you're not just a Turing Machine, unless that's what you
choose to be.  Even the most stringent rules have a degree of
flexibility.  You can stick to it or slide away from it as you choose. 
I'm not saying there are no ramifications to such a choice.

> > "I sink you, go away" is just about the crudest possible maneouver in
> > Sink, and makes for a terribly uninteresting game.  Any practiced Sink
> > player learns this pretty quickly.  Solo Sink isn't very much fun!
> Maybe not to you.

If you like it so much, go play it!

Your actions tell me that you like Group Sink better, or you'd just
stop.

> Of course, that would appear to be the eventual
> goal, regardless of motivation and hue.

The "eventual goal" is unknown, why labour under the misapprehension
that it has "appeared" to you?

We're just playing Sink, and *I* think you're just sore because I'm
beating the hell out of you at it.

> > (Besides, I just STOLE your football.  Live with it!  :-)
> American or European?  Or African, for that matter?

You tell me, it's your football.  I don't know where you got it.

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:01:51 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [Perceptive Observer] oh, the games we play

Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> Chris Pressey wrote:
> > Thank you!  Jenny is quite happy to do without the rancid timbits of the
> > moral relativists!
> Oh, that reminds me. After attending a performance of the Carnegie Hall
> Jazz band at Davies Hall in SF last night, I withdraw at least 75% of
> my contention that booing is rude. Walking out while the band is playing,
> now that's rude.

Yes.  It is, isn't it.  Hm... that's an interesting way to spend your
quatloos.

That, and letting your cellphone ring and then answering it and
conversing on it *during the play* without leaving the theatre - yes
this actually happened, I wasn't there, but I read about it in my local
newspaper - these actions have eclipsed booing entirely on the rudeness
scale.

Thank you for playing "Perceptive Observer!"

> > And thank you for playing "Referee".  That's very cool, I like that
> > you're paying attention to this CLEARLY MAD chatter...
> Well, you know, I'm a man of leisure now, plenty of spare time...
> But I dispute any claim that I'm playing "Referee" in this conversation.

Perhaps you were just playing "Perceptive Observer".  Sometimes they're
hard to tell apart.

> > if you're
> > going to write that Russell-composed alien mandala anytime soon... ;-)
> As if I'm going to get around to it any time soon.

Well, this deed to At1antis isn't going anywhere either right now.  I
mean, no rush or anything, I just hope you won't be too disappointed if
it finds another buyer in the meantime.

But the sooner At1antis is un-sunk, the sooner we can improve the trade
routes between quatloos and Zorkmids.  One thing at a time, though.

P.S. Jenny says (and that phrase, "Jenny says", shall henceforth carry
about the same weight as "Chris is CLEARLY MAD", yes?) Jenny says this
about Bear Flower Petals: that they:

A. work well in coleslaw
B. help you see in the dark
C. improve the immune system
D. none of the above

Take that as you will.

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:16:08 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: [Perceptive Observer] oh, the games we play



Chris Pressey wrote:
> Well, this deed to At1antis isn't going anywhere either right now.  I
> mean, no rush or anything, I just hope you won't be too disappointed if
> it finds another buyer in the meantime.

Ack! All this time I thought the offer was for Atlantis, not At1antis. 
Durn.

-r


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:24:15 -0400
From: Greg Velichansky <hmaon@bumba.net>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

On Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:49:39PM -0300, Steve Mosher wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Greg Velichansky wrote:

> > I sink the doing of X if X is sunk.
> 
> 	I sunkenly sink the sinking of the doing of some sunken X. Ha!

I sink the "Ha!"

Ha!

Furthermore, I sink, raise up, and sink again the meaning of X as 
a placeholder for some arbitrary sinkable concept.

Also, the notion that some concept can be invoked after being sunk for
the second time is hereby sunk and replaced with a llama. After all, you only
sink twice.

gsv


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:29:13 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [procmail] [list-meta] recipe to eat message duplicates

Greg Velichansky wrote:
> I've subscribed to the new, Finnish lists and am already getting duplicates.
> I'm not complaining, I'd just like to share the procmail recipe I'm trying to
> use to deal with them. It's attached. I'd like to know if anyone has any better
> ideas.

My idea, suggested in the interests of using less bandwidth overall as
has been suggested by Juhan, is to unsubscribe from list@catseye
completely by sending an email to list-unsubscribe@catseye.mb.ca

That way you will only get one copy of list@catseye's messages, via
misc@esoteric.

Replies should be no problem, list@catseye is now completely open,
anyone can post even when they're not subscribed.  If not subscribed to
list@catseye, you'll see copies of your replies come through on
misc@esoteric, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm subscribed to lang@esoteric now so if there's anything I have that
is, ah, digital-computer-implementable so to speak, I'll post it there.
'N-DCNC perhaps sometime soon.

Otherwise, on with the poetry and the games of Sink!  This is fun.

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:36:53 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Perceptive Observer] oh, the games we play

Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> Chris Pressey wrote:
> > Well, this deed to At1antis isn't going anywhere either right now.  I
> > mean, no rush or anything, I just hope you won't be too disappointed if
> > it finds another buyer in the meantime.
> Ack! All this time I thought the offer was for Atlantis, not At1antis.
> Durn.

So did I - until I looked closely and noticed what I had written:

> And if you believed *that*, I have a lost continent somewhere in the
> Atlantic Ccean that I'd like to sell you.

Atlantis is in the Atlantic *Ocean*, not the Atlantic Ccean, whereever
that is.  Turns out I have the deed to At1antis, not Atlantis.

But it turns out that they trade quatloos for dingbats in At1antis, too.

Or maybe it was just a typo.  I dunno.

Hey, don't blame *me*.  Who was it again that originally brought up the
whole "mad wizard" paradigm, anyway?  :-)

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:44:37 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

The fun is all in how you play it...

Greg Velichansky wrote:
> > I sunkenly sink the sinking of the doing of some sunken X. Ha!
> I sink the "Ha!"
> Ha!
> Furthermore, I sink, raise up, and sink again the meaning of X as
> a placeholder for some arbitrary sinkable concept.

I sink being able to sink things by merely claiming that you sink them.

Oh, I know.  Let's give it a name.  As the rules say, it is sometimes
useful to name the objects thus sunk.  Let's call it an "id sink".

> Also, the notion that some concept can be invoked after being sunk for
> the second time is hereby sunk and replaced with a llama.

I open up a pit under the llama and fill it with quicksand.

Now I think I'm going to kick back and just let gravity do the rest.

Let's call that one a "natural sink".

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

From: "Daniel Perry" <entreido@yahoo.com>
Subject: [lang] [] language
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:27:29 -0400

 i was browsing through http://www.p-nand-q.com, and found a link to an
interesting bit of information about a language used on the ex-esolang list.
I was wondering if anyone knew any more info about it, since it looks pretty
cool :) http://www.p-nand-q.com/brackets.htm

*goes back into lurking*
[ daniel perry |--------------]
[ mercuri labs | augusta, ga  ]






------------------------------

From: "Daniel Perry" <entreido@yahoo.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: [] language
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:29:13 -0400

err, read wrong, esolang newsgroup :)

-----Original Message-----
From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi
[mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Daniel Perry
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 6:27 PM
To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi
Subject: [lang] [] language


 i was browsing through http://www.p-nand-q.com, and found a link to an
interesting bit of information about a language used on the ex-esolang list.
I was wondering if anyone knew any more info about it, since it looks pretty
cool :) http://www.p-nand-q.com/brackets.htm

*goes back into lurking*
[ daniel perry |--------------]
[ mercuri labs | augusta, ga  ]







------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:22:12 -0400
From: Greg Velichansky <hmaon@bumba.net>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

On Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:44:37PM -0500, Chris Pressey wrote:
> The fun is all in how you play it...
> 
> Greg Velichansky wrote:

> 
> I sink being able to sink things by merely claiming that you sink them.
> 
> Oh, I know.  Let's give it a name.  As the rules say, it is sometimes
> useful to name the objects thus sunk.  Let's call it an "id sink".

Haha. I sink the sink id premised upon which sinking is sinkable in the 
context establishing the dichotomy of sinkable objects unsunk by 
the grace of the "id sink" yet un-unsinkable through a contradiction 
between rules and sunk predicates integral to the context establishing
rules. 

Actually, I just write some meaningless jibberish, wasting the few
moments of your life that you take to read it. It is a "time sink."


> 
> I open up a pit under the llama and fill it with quicksand.
> 
> Now I think I'm going to kick back and just let gravity do the rest.
> 
> Let's call that one a "natural sink".

I sink my responsibility for this heinous and unjustified action.
In fact, I wash my hands of it... in the "kitchen sink."

> 
> _chris
> 


gsv


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:16:21 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

Greg Velichansky wrote:
> > Oh, I know.  Let's give it a name.  As the rules say, it is sometimes
> > useful to name the objects thus sunk.  Let's call it an "id sink".
> Haha. I sink the sink id premised upon which sinking is sinkable in the
> context establishing the dichotomy of sinkable objects unsunk by
> the grace of the "id sink" yet un-unsinkable through a contradiction
> between rules and sunk predicates integral to the context establishing
> rules.
> Actually, I just write some meaningless jibberish, wasting the few
> moments of your life that you take to read it. It is a "time sink."

Whoo-hoo!  Premiership sinking, Greg!  <<high-fives Greg>>

Phil E. Buster and Bob Fusskaittett would approve!

I find this game very fun when it's played this creatively!

My turn.

I raise everything except grace.

No, wait.  This one's much better:

Anyone who uses the word "grace" is CLEARLY a devout Christian sheep
incapable of formulating their own thoughts - much less making decisions
based on them!!!  "Sink by association!"

> I sink my responsibility for this heinous and unjustified action.
> In fact, I wash my hands of it... in the "kitchen sink."

On the basis that I can't prove that it exists, I hereby sink your
freewill that is so obviously making you think you can choose to sink
your responsibility when in fact it is a matter only for the stars to
decide with their complex and machinistic wheels of Fate.

Taste that "inevitability sink"!

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:08:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sunfall to-Ennien <pwcast@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [List-Meta] Stupid Question

> Hm!  Sounds like you might want to get in touch with the
> Universal Philosophical Agricultural Commission.

Wow.  I definitely need to hook up with those folk.  Maybe they can help me with my damned
Platonic lilies as well . . . the buggers keep trying to twist each other into these lovely
shapes, and talk about concretes and absolutes and whatnot, but they end up destroying each other
with the jaggeed bends.  Argh.

> I don't know exactly where their offices are located but my Trade Envoy
> suggests: http://www.deoxy.org/mckenna.htm (but I think she's just being
> rude, so take that as you will)

I'll have to agree on the 'just being rude' bit.  I'll have to look up their site.

I have a hunch that http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0595094724/002-9374111-0979202 is a
good starting point, though.

> Hey: anything beats trying to sell bushels of Objectivist Apples by the
> side of the road, right?  ;-)

I'd end up just throwing the things into the road and letting them revolutionize the steel
industry on the fly.  Take /that/, axiomatic gits!

> > Indeed, the most annoying thing about it, by far, is the fact that the title really /is/
> > Disney/Pixar's Toy Story Racer.
> 
> Hm... suppose:
> 
> A rose by any other name would NOT be a rose.  It'd be a <<insert what
> other name you chose for it here>>.

True and false.  If a rose by any other name is not a rose, then it never was a rose.  Except that
it isn't, because it's by another name.  Rgh.  Not a good week for me to be playing logic games,
I'm afraid -- school . . . work . . . blah.

> > > P.S.  What is the sound of one sun falling?  I figure you might know :-)
> > It all depends on the number of mimes available to listen, and how many are crushed by the
> large
> > fiery mass.
> 
> Just as I suspected but could not put into words!  Thank you.

Quite welcome.  It's a little known fact, but a decidedly fun performance.  Coincidentally . . .

> _chris
> 
> P.S.  How much are tickets going for?  I think it'd be really
> interesting to catch this performance while I'm in town.  :-D

Afraid they're sold out.  Chances are fair that you can buy a few from a scalper at the door, but
the hearsay is that the performance this weekend is going to be truly fantastic -- no less than
fifty mimes crushed, plus another hundred singed -- so chances are good that the prices will be
exorbitant. :/

I used to know the doorman, but they mistook him for a mime a few weeks ago when he forgot to wash
off after his last Vampire: The Masquerade roleplaying session, and he was pressed into mime
service.  Unfortunately, 'pressed' ended up being more than a euphemism.

Phil

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:12:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sunfall to-Ennien <pwcast@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Personal] Some news

Sorry it took so damned long to respond to this.  Apologies, Russell.

--- Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> wrote:
> This is way way way off topic, and hardly even esoteric, but I've
> talked about my job in the past and thought I should fill people 
> in on some things.
> 
> Release Candidate 2 of Half-Life for the Dreamcast goes to the 
> publisher today. I imagine there will be some small refinements 
> before it's actually accepted -- the publisher, the original 
> developer, and Sega all have differing opinions on "acceptable 
> bugs". My opinions on acceptable bugs are immaterial at this 
> point.
> 
> My company, Captivation, is defunct; our last regular paychecks 
> were at the end of February. Three of us have stayed on for a month
> and a half to try and finish Half-Life. I'm unable to continue 
> working on it, psychologically and financially, past this point, 
> so my boss gets to do the aforementioned small refinements.
> 
> My employment prospects are okay; I'm sitting on a job offer that
> mostly has a short public-transit commute going for it. I have an
> interview at, um, a well-known medium-sized computer hardware and
> software company, next week. 
> 
> I'm now going to Mendocino for a couple of days to unwind. 
> 
> -RB

I hope that your trip to Mendocino [wherever that is!] went well.

I'm sorry to hear about your company, and about the torture that the game put ya'll through at the
end.  I've heard horror stories about end-game crunch time, and it sounds like you experienced
some of the worst of it.  It's a shame, and I'm sorry that your company didn't manage to stay
around to enjoy the results of a game like Half-Life ported to the DC.  Gods know it sold like
hotcakes on the PC . . .

Good luck with your new job, sirrah.  Hope it turns out for the best.

Phil

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


------------------------------

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 01 12:56:01 EST
Subject: Special bargain for movie lovers ...

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:34:54 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: Special bargain for movie lovers ...

So how the hell did -this- happen?
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

From: "Cal Henderson" <cal@iamcal.com>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 08:35:45 +0100

: and fourty-cubic-Burke boxes of Smarties.

which is of course no different to a cubic-Burke box of Smarties. Selling food
in Burkes may well bring about the collapse of industry.

--cal henderson



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:51:07 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Dumbf*ck

Well, yet another language has sprung from my fingertips, this one 
tentatively titled Dumbf*ck.
You have seven instructions.
<	move right one "cell" (8 bits) (a la Brainf*ck)
 >	move left one cell
/	Rotate value right three bits
.	Flip low-order bit
,	Output cell
'	Input cell
?	If low-order bit of current cell is set, jump back to previous ?, else 
jump forward to next ?

I don't have a Hello World yet, but I've figured out how to print Hell, and 
it looks like this:
././/////,>./././/.////,/.///////.,,

Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 02:43:45 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Special bargain for movie lovers ...

"Cliff L. Biffle" wrote:
> So how the hell did -this- happen?
> Cliff Biffle

list@catseye.mb.ca is open now and is probably being spammed, as would
be usual for any e-mail address placed on a web page.

if I close it, the spam will go away, but panu's list-chaining to
misc@esoteric won't work, at least, not for replies.

tradeoffs galore... what do you guys like better?

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 02:49:37 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [Overanalyse Sink] for fun and profit (was Re: [Sink] update)

Chris Pressey wrote:
> Anyone who uses the word "grace" is CLEARLY a devout Christian sheep
> incapable of formulating their own thoughts - much less making decisions
> based on them!!!  "Sink by association!"

I just want to be clear here that there was no spite whatsoever
motivating this sink maneouver, it was just an example, and I couldn't
give a rat's ass whether Greg is a Christian, or not.  Quite frankly
beside the point, and that *was* the point.  Yeah - you guys are all
mature enough to understand that, I think.

Words like "grace" have been co-opted by the churches for ages.  People
assume in their gut that they must have some sort of religious meaning
or character when they do not.

That piled on top of guilt by association.  Hey, Hitler and Charles
Manson both believed that 1+1=2, so you shouldn't believe it lest you be
put in the same category as Hitler and Charles Manson too... right?

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 01:05:37 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: Special bargain for movie lovers ...


>If I close it, the spam will go away, but panu's list-chaining to
>misc@esoteric won't work, at least, not for replies.
>tradeoffs galore... what do you guys like better?

Well, I was under the impression (prematurely) that we were all just going 
to hop over to sange.fi.  So I'd be fine with closing the catseye list to 
nonsubscribers, as I'm subscribed to the other lists anyway. :-)
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:19:29 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] [rewrite systems] representational power


Well, tree rewriting systems (with pattern-matching and static rules) are
commonly known to be quite equal to symbol-based lambda calculus -
actually a bit more powerful, because they can match subnodes. As such,
they're TC. They are subject to subleties of rewrite order and
prioritising, but at least when the rewrite rules are applied in random
order, on random places, they overcome most of the implementation problems
such as local endless loops that could be eliminated.

I _think_ (though I'm not absolutely positive) that if we restrict
rewriting to the root node, we still have a rewrite system that is, at
least, TC, and most probably also quite equal to non-strict functional
evaluation plus deep matching, with the added restriction of results not
having any sub-expressions (because they would not get evaluated).

If we _still_ restrict the representational power by denying matching
subexpressions, so that we have a language where

Rule :== Pattern "->" Pattern ";" ;;
Pattern :== SYMBOL "(" Children ")" ;;
Children :== Term | Children "," Term ;;
Term :== SYMBOL | VARIABLE

(note that a Term cannot be a Pattern!) I _think_ the result still might
be Turing-complete; the problem is, it provides some matching (which
lambda calculus does not) but it doesn't provide closures (which are
crucial to lambda calculus). Any ideas on this one?

All in all, I have noticed that there are at least three ways to choose
between alternative actions: first-class behaviour (OO, ^c); pattern
matching (FP, trees); and operations that give booleans as values
(imperative and most everything else too - a kind of "fallback" system).

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:26:49 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [procmail] [list-meta] recipe to eat message duplicates

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Greg Velichansky wrote:

> I've subscribed to the new, Finnish lists and am already getting duplicates.

Supposedly because you're also on list@catseye.mb.ca?

The current setup is made so that the easiest way to get all postings and
no duplicates is to subscribe misc@esoteric.sange.fi (only).

> Technically, it doesn't eat duplicates, just those messages that have been
> posted to a list on esoteric.sange.fi from the list at catseye.mb.ca.

The procmail idea is great. Of course, if you wanted to be a purist, you
could cache Message-id: headers for tracking duplicates...

Oh, by the way, the misc list does this. So I think it should be safe to
double-post something on-topic to lang@esoteric and list@catseye, to the
former to express its being on-topic and to the latter to ensure that no
one will miss it... :)

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:45:01 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)


This "sink" game seems to be to exclamation marks, what "question tennis"
is to question marks.

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:

> So I joined in!

I sink your join! But I don't sink you! I'll keep you floating!

How about playing question tennis? If you don't know the rules, just
answer the question with another question, and I'll tell you if you broke
the rules.

How about playing question tennis?

> "I sink you, go away" is just about the crudest possible maneouver in
> Sink, and makes for a terribly uninteresting game.  Any practiced Sink
> player learns this pretty quickly.  Solo Sink isn't very much fun!

I know! Let's play meta-Sink! I'd say that complaining about other peoples
habits when playing "Sink" is just about the fluffiest move to make. And
you don't want to fluff, do you? (open question tennis)

> I agree!

Nice!

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:52:38 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: [Not Esoteric] [Scripting Language] Eloi

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Keith Gaughan wrote:

> when I came across an interface language which I'd designed many years ago. Needless
> to say, it was ugly and had a crappy, awkward syntax. I took the code sample I had and

That's what's called "maintainability" nowadays.

[...]
> Icon SaveWindow[0]:
>     # When the icon is dragged, this event is triggered.
>     OnDrag:
>         Set Event.Filename = SaveWindow.Filename

Do I get my head bashed if I say this looks somewhat like Python? Of
course, it might make a good language.

Panu






------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:55:11 +0200
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

On 24 Apr 2001, at 12:45, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:

> How about playing question tennis? If you don't know the rules, just
> answer the question with another question, and I'll tell you if you broke
> the rules.
> 
> How about playing question tennis?
> 

Can I return your serve?

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:05:35 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:

> Well, yet another language has sprung from my fingertips, this one
> tentatively titled Dumbf*ck.

This seems otherwise sensible, except that:

> ?	If low-order bit of current cell is set, jump back to previous ?, else
> jump forward to next ?

If I watch this closely enough, I interpret this to mean that code behind
an odd number of `?' is never run, and that code behind an even number of
`?' is run always at least once. (But the code does look neat.)

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:09:09 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> On 24 Apr 2001, at 12:45, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
>
> > How about playing question tennis? If you don't know the rules, just
> > answer the question with another question, and I'll tell you if you broke
> > the rules.
> >
> > How about playing question tennis?
>
> Can I return your serve?

Would that be polite?

Panu



------------------------------

From: "Cal Henderson" <cal@iamcal.com>
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:14:20 +0100

: > Can I return your serve?
: 
: Would that be polite?

can i join in?

--ca;



------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:18:33 +0200
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all

On 24 Apr 2001, at 13:09, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > On 24 Apr 2001, at 12:45, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> >
> > > How about playing question tennis? If you don't know the rules, just
> > > answer the question with another question, and I'll tell you if you broke
> > > the rules.
> > >
> > > How about playing question tennis?
> >
> > Can I return your serve?
> 
> Would that be polite?
> 
> Panu

Would that matter?


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 03:20:30 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: [lang] [Brainf*ck][Long] dbc.c: a new brainfuck compiler for Sun

/*So I finally got it finished(?), if anyone cares. And for all its directness,
the speed of the resulting executables seems to be roughly 1.5 to 2 times that
of Panu's fed through gcc -O3. Of course this comes at a murderous price in
portability. Still, it was fun. If anyone wants to put this on his brainfuck
website or something, go right ahead.
-Daniel.*/

/*
dbc--the dbc brainfuck compiler.
(c) Daniel Cristofani.
dbc compiles brainfuck code into executables for Sun machines. The translation
process is fairly straightforward; the resulting executables are small and
quick. Only very local optimizations are done, no larger-scale rearranging. I'm
too lazy to do anything very fancy just now.

usage: dbc takes three arguments: the size of the array (in bytes), the name of
the source file, and the name of the output file. Exactly those three, in that
order. This could be simplified by layering a shell script on top of it, e.g.:

#!/bin/sh
rm -f out
realdbc 0x00010000 $1 out && chmod 500 out && exec out

Some limitations:
-No error checking on array bounds is implemented yet. I will fix this later,
by aligning array bounds neatly with memory pages so a segmentation fault
happens as soon as one tries to access memory outside the array. More explicit
checking would be a bit wasteful.
-array elements are essentially byte values; however, "256" or "-256" etc. may
not be equal to "0" when a loop condition is being tested. This can be fixed,
at a marginal performance penalty, by deleting the lines marked with "aaa".
However, cleanly written brainfuck code probably should use only values in the
range 0-127 anyway, so it shouldn't be necessary.
-a sequence of more than 4095 +s, -s, <s, or >s in a row will not be dealt with
correctly. I may fix this later. But I don't expect such a program to exist,
except as a deliberate test.
-similar, but even less likely: in a program more than two million machine
instructions long, the jumps will not work properly.
-the resulting programs accept exactly as much input as is specified by the ,
command; any input remaining after the programs terminate will be treated as a
command by the shell. In short the programs do not eat all the leftover input
when terminating. I may fix this.
-i've used sparc v8 instructions which are "deprecated" in v9, notably the non-
predicting conditional branches. This for portability.
-the traps to the system (for read, write, and exit calls) are here done with
trap number 8. Traps 0 and 8 both do system calls; I'm not clear on the
difference between them. If 8 is giving you trouble you might want to try
replacing the final digit of the lines marked "ta 8" with a zero.
-the final fwrite call assumes compilation on a bigendian machine.

If you find any bugs, or have any questions about the compiler, or any feature
requests, or anything, I may well be willing to help. Talk to me. Likewise if
you derive benefit from my work I'd be glad to hear it.
-Daniel Cristofani.
*/

/*Make any use you like of this software. I can't stop you anyway. :)*/

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>

long cnums[256]; /*how many of each character?*/

int main(int argc, char **argv){
     FILE *input, *output;
     char nonbf[256] =
     {1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,1,0,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1};
     long *scode; /*sparc code to output*/
     long **stack; /*outstanding [s to patch.*/
     long **sptr;
     long **plist; /*just-matched [s to patch the delay slot for soon*/
     long **plptr;
     long *psource; /*patch delay slot from here after here is filled*/
     long *a; /*current spot in machine code*/
     long b, c, disp, ccflag = 0; /*input; # of same; jump distance; cc set?*/
     long psize, msize, sdepth = 0; /*program size; array size; stack depth.*/

     if (argc < 4){
         fprintf(stderr, "too few arguments.\n");
         exit(1);
     }
     msize = strtol(argv[1], 0, 0);
     if (!(input = fopen(argv[2], "r"))){
         fprintf(stderr, "can\'t open %s for input.\n",argv[2]);
         exit(1);
     }
     if (!(output = fopen(argv[3], "w"))){
         fprintf(stderr, "can\'t open %s for output.\n",argv[3]);
         exit(1);
     }
     while ((b = getc(input)) != EOF){
         ++cnums[b];
         if (cnums[91] - cnums[93] > sdepth){
             sdepth = cnums[91] - cnums[93];
         } else if (cnums[91] < cnums[93]) {
             fprintf(stderr, "unmatched ].\n");
             exit(1);
         }
     }
     if (cnums[91] > cnums[93]) {
         fprintf(stderr, "unmatched [.\n");
         exit(1);
     }
     rewind(input);
     psize = 3*cnums[43] + 3*cnums[45] + 3*cnums[44] + 3*cnums[46];
     psize += cnums[60] + cnums[62] + 4*cnums[91] + 4*cnums[93];
     psize += 35; /*These are conservative estimates.*/
     if (!(scode = (long*)malloc((psize+32) * sizeof(long)))){
         fprintf(stderr, "not enough memory to store program.\n",argv[3]);
         exit(1);
     }
     if (!(stack=sptr=(long**)malloc((sdepth+32)*sizeof(long*)))){
         fprintf(stderr, "not enough memory for backpatch stack.\n",argv[3]);
         exit(1);
     }
     if (!(plist = plptr=(long**)malloc((sdepth+32)*sizeof(long*)))){
         fprintf(stderr, "not enough memory for patch list.\n",argv[3]);
         exit(1);
     }
     scode[0] = 0x7f454c46; /*ELF magic number*/
     scode[1] = 0x01020120; /*32-bit, big-endian, ELF v.1, reserved*/
     scode[2] = 0x64626320; /*reserved*/
     scode[3] = 0x312e3020; /*reserved*/
     scode[4] = 0x00020002; /*executable, SPARC*/
     scode[5] = 0x00000001; /*ELF v.1*/
     scode[6] = 0x00000074; /*entry point in memory*/
     scode[7] = 0x00000034; /*offset to program header table*/
     scode[8] = 0x00000000; /*offset to nonexistent section header*/
     scode[9] = 0x00000000; /*nonexistent flags*/
     scode[10] = 0x00340020; /*ELF header size, p header table entry size*/
     scode[11] = 0x00020000; /*2 segments to the program: .text and .bss*/
     scode[12] = 0x00000000;

     scode[13] = 0x00000001; /*loadable segment*/
     scode[14] = 0x00000074; /*offset in file: after program header table*/
     scode[15] = 0x00000074; /*offset in memory*/
     scode[16] = 0x00000000; /*physical address not applicable*/
     /*size of program in file patched later*/
     /*size of program in memory patched later*/
     scode[19] = 0x00000007; /*flags: execute only*/
     scode[20] = 0x00010000; /*align on 64K boundary*/

     scode[21] = 0x00000001; /*loadable segment*/
     /*offset in file patched later*/
     /*location in memory patched later*/
     scode[24] = 0x00000000; /*physical address not applicable*/
     scode[25] = 0x00000000; /*Takes no file space*/
     scode[26] = msize; /*size of array in memory*/
     scode[27] = 0x00000006; /*flags: read and write*/
     scode[28] = 0x00010000; /*align on 64K boundary*/

     /*two instructions to set %o1 (pointer) patched later*/
     a = scode + 31;
     if (cnums[46] || cnums[44]){
         if (!cnums[46]){
             *a++ = 0x90102000; /*or %g0, 0, %o0*/
             *a++ = 0x82102003; /*or %g0, 3, %g1*/
         }
         if (!cnums[44]){
             *a++ = 0x90102001; /*or %g0, 1, %o0*/
             *a++ = 0x82102004; /*or %g0, 4, %g1*/
         }
         *a++ = 0x94102001; /*or %g0, 1, %o2*/
     }
     b = getc(input);
     while (b != EOF){
         switch (b){

         case '[':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))=='[' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
/*aaa*/     if (!ccflag){
                 *a++ = 0xd60a4000; /*ld [%o1], %o3*/
                 *a++ = 0x80a2e000; /*subcc %o3, 0, %g0*/
                 ccflag = 1;
/*aaa*/     } else if (*a&0xff800000==0x32800000){/*pathological case "]["*/
/*aaa*/         *a++ = 0x013f3f21; /*sethi 3f3f21, %g0*/
/*aaa*/     }
             while (c--) *sptr++ = a;
             a += 2; /*backpatch later.*/
             break;

         case ']':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))==']' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
/*aaa*/     if (!ccflag){
                 *a++ = 0xd60a4000; /*ld [%o1], %o3*/
                 *a++ = 0x80a2e000; /*subcc %o3, 0, %g0*/
                 ccflag = 1;
/*aaa*/     }
             disp = (a - *--sptr);
             **sptr  = 0x22800003 + disp; /*be,a disp+3*/
             *plptr++ = *sptr+1;
             *a = 0x32c00003 - disp; /*bne,a -disp+3*/
             a[1] = (*sptr)[2];
/*aaa*/     if (a[1] == *a){ /*pathological case "[]"*/
/*aaa*/         *a = 0x32800000; /*bne,a 0*/
/*aaa*/         a[1] = 0x013f3f21; /*sethi 3f3f21, %g0*/
/*aaa*/     }
             while (--c){
                 disp = (a - *--sptr);
                 **sptr = 0x22800003 + disp; /*be,a disp+3*/
                 *plptr++ = *sptr+1;
             }
             a += 2;
             psource = a;
             break;

         case '<':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))=='<' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
             *a++ = 0x92a26000 + c; /*subcc %o1, c, %o1*/
             ccflag = 0;
             break;

         case '>':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))=='>' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
             *a++ = 0x92826000 + c; /*addcc %o1, c, %o1*/
             ccflag = 0;
             break;

         case ',':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))==',' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
             if (cnums[46]){
                 *a++ = 0x90102000; /*or %g0, 0, %o0*/
                 *a++ = 0x82102003; /*or %g0, 3, %g1*/
             }
             while (c--) *a++ = 0x91d02008; /*ta 8*/
             ccflag = 0;
             break;

         case '.':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))=='.' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
             if (cnums[44]){
                 *a++ = 0x90102001; /*or %g0, 1, %o0*/
                 *a++ = 0x82102004; /*or %g0, 4, %g1*/
             }
             while (c--) *a++ = 0x91d02008; /*ta 8*/
             break;

         case '+':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))=='+' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
             if (!ccflag){
                 *a++ = 0xd60a4000; /*ld [%o1], %o3*/
                 ccflag = 1;
             }
             *a++ = 0x9682e000 + c; /*addcc %o3, c, %o3*/
             *a++ = 0xd62a4000; /*st %o3, [%o1]*/
             break;

         case '-':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))=='-' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
             if (!ccflag){
                 *a++ = 0xd60a4000; /*ld [%o1], %o3*/
                 ccflag = 1;
             }
             *a++ = 0x96a2e000 + c; /*subcc %o3, c, %o3*/
             *a++ = 0xd62a4000; /*st %o3, [%o1]*/
             break;

         default:
             b = getc(input);
             break;

         }
         while (plptr > plist && a > psource){
             **--plptr = *psource;
         }
     }
     fclose(input);

     *a++ = 0x90102000; /*or %g0, 0, %o0*/
     *a++ = 0x82102001; /*or %g0, 1, %g1*/
     *a++ = 0x91d02008; /*ta 8*/
     while (plptr > plist && a > psource){
         **--plptr = *psource;
     }
     psize = (a - scode)*4;
     scode[22] = psize; /*patch offset in file (end of program).*/
     scode[23] = psize + 0x00010000; /*address in memory of array*/
     scode[17] = scode[18] = psize - 0x00000074; /*Size of program*/
     scode[29] = 0x13000000 + (scode[23] >> 10); /*sethi %o1, 22 bits*/
     scode[30] = 0x92126000 + (scode[23] & 0x000003ff); /*or %o1, 10, %o1*/

     fwrite(scode, 1, psize, output);
     fclose(output);
     exit(0);
}




------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:26:20 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all



shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> 
> On 24 Apr 2001, at 13:09, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 12:45, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > >
> > > > How about playing question tennis? If you don't know the rules, just
> > > > answer the question with another question, and I'll tell you if you broke
> > > > the rules.
> > > >
> > > > How about playing question tennis?
> > >
> > > Can I return your serve?
> >
> > Would that be polite?
> >
> > Panu
> 
> Would that matter?

It looks like it's going to rain. I suggest you interrupt the match
until storm menaces are cleared. 

FvdP



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 03:26:07 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: [Brainf*ck][Long] dbc.c: a new brainfuck compiler for Sun

/*So I finally got it finished(?), if anyone cares. And for all its directness,
the speed of the resulting executables seems to be roughly 1.5 to 2 times that
of Panu's fed through gcc -O3. Of course this comes at a murderous price in
portability. Still, it was fun. If anyone wants to put this on his brainfuck
website or something, go right ahead.
-Daniel.*/

/*
dbc--the dbc brainfuck compiler.
(c) Daniel Cristofani.
dbc compiles brainfuck code into executables for Sun machines. The translation
process is fairly straightforward; the resulting executables are small and
quick. Only very local optimizations are done, no larger-scale rearranging. I'm
too lazy to do anything very fancy just now.

usage: dbc takes three arguments: the size of the array (in bytes), the name of
the source file, and the name of the output file. Exactly those three, in that
order. This could be simplified by layering a shell script on top of it, e.g.:

#!/bin/sh
rm -f out
realdbc 0x00010000 $1 out && chmod 500 out && exec out

Some limitations:
-No error checking on array bounds is implemented yet. I will fix this later,
by aligning array bounds neatly with memory pages so a segmentation fault
happens as soon as one tries to access memory outside the array. More explicit
checking would be a bit wasteful.
-array elements are essentially byte values; however, "256" or "-256" etc. may
not be equal to "0" when a loop condition is being tested. This can be fixed,
at a marginal performance penalty, by deleting the lines marked with "aaa".
However, cleanly written brainfuck code probably should use only values in the
range 0-127 anyway, so it shouldn't be necessary.
-a sequence of more than 4095 +s, -s, <s, or >s in a row will not be dealt with
correctly. I may fix this later. But I don't expect such a program to exist,
except as a deliberate test.
-similar, but even less likely: in a program more than two million machine
instructions long, the jumps will not work properly.
-the resulting programs accept exactly as much input as is specified by the ,
command; any input remaining after the programs terminate will be treated as a
command by the shell. In short the programs do not eat all the leftover input
when terminating. I may fix this.
-i've used sparc v8 instructions which are "deprecated" in v9, notably the non-
predicting conditional branches. This for portability.
-the traps to the system (for read, write, and exit calls) are here done with
trap number 8. Traps 0 and 8 both do system calls; I'm not clear on the
difference between them. If 8 is giving you trouble you might want to try
replacing the final digit of the lines marked "ta 8" with a zero.
-the final fwrite call assumes compilation on a bigendian machine.

If you find any bugs, or have any questions about the compiler, or any feature
requests, or anything, I may well be willing to help. Talk to me. Likewise if
you derive benefit from my work I'd be glad to hear it.
-Daniel Cristofani.
*/

/*Make any use you like of this software. I can't stop you anyway. :)*/

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>

long cnums[256]; /*how many of each character?*/

int main(int argc, char **argv){
     FILE *input, *output;
     char nonbf[256] =
     {1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,1,0,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,
     1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1};
     long *scode; /*sparc code to output*/
     long **stack; /*outstanding [s to patch.*/
     long **sptr;
     long **plist; /*just-matched [s to patch the delay slot for soon*/
     long **plptr;
     long *psource; /*patch delay slot from here after here is filled*/
     long *a; /*current spot in machine code*/
     long b, c, disp, ccflag = 0; /*input; # of same; jump distance; cc set?*/
     long psize, msize, sdepth = 0; /*program size; array size; stack depth.*/

     if (argc < 4){
         fprintf(stderr, "too few arguments.\n");
         exit(1);
     }
     msize = strtol(argv[1], 0, 0);
     if (!(input = fopen(argv[2], "r"))){
         fprintf(stderr, "can\'t open %s for input.\n",argv[2]);
         exit(1);
     }
     if (!(output = fopen(argv[3], "w"))){
         fprintf(stderr, "can\'t open %s for output.\n",argv[3]);
         exit(1);
     }
     while ((b = getc(input)) != EOF){
         ++cnums[b];
         if (cnums[91] - cnums[93] > sdepth){
             sdepth = cnums[91] - cnums[93];
         } else if (cnums[91] < cnums[93]) {
             fprintf(stderr, "unmatched ].\n");
             exit(1);
         }
     }
     if (cnums[91] > cnums[93]) {
         fprintf(stderr, "unmatched [.\n");
         exit(1);
     }
     rewind(input);
     psize = 3*cnums[43] + 3*cnums[45] + 3*cnums[44] + 3*cnums[46];
     psize += cnums[60] + cnums[62] + 4*cnums[91] + 4*cnums[93];
     psize += 35; /*These are conservative estimates.*/
     if (!(scode = (long*)malloc((psize+32) * sizeof(long)))){
         fprintf(stderr, "not enough memory to store program.\n",argv[3]);
         exit(1);
     }
     if (!(stack=sptr=(long**)malloc((sdepth+32)*sizeof(long*)))){
         fprintf(stderr, "not enough memory for backpatch stack.\n",argv[3]);
         exit(1);
     }
     if (!(plist = plptr=(long**)malloc((sdepth+32)*sizeof(long*)))){
         fprintf(stderr, "not enough memory for patch list.\n",argv[3]);
         exit(1);
     }
     scode[0] = 0x7f454c46; /*ELF magic number*/
     scode[1] = 0x01020120; /*32-bit, big-endian, ELF v.1, reserved*/
     scode[2] = 0x64626320; /*reserved*/
     scode[3] = 0x312e3020; /*reserved*/
     scode[4] = 0x00020002; /*executable, SPARC*/
     scode[5] = 0x00000001; /*ELF v.1*/
     scode[6] = 0x00000074; /*entry point in memory*/
     scode[7] = 0x00000034; /*offset to program header table*/
     scode[8] = 0x00000000; /*offset to nonexistent section header*/
     scode[9] = 0x00000000; /*nonexistent flags*/
     scode[10] = 0x00340020; /*ELF header size, p header table entry size*/
     scode[11] = 0x00020000; /*2 segments to the program: .text and .bss*/
     scode[12] = 0x00000000;

     scode[13] = 0x00000001; /*loadable segment*/
     scode[14] = 0x00000074; /*offset in file: after program header table*/
     scode[15] = 0x00000074; /*offset in memory*/
     scode[16] = 0x00000000; /*physical address not applicable*/
     /*size of program in file patched later*/
     /*size of program in memory patched later*/
     scode[19] = 0x00000007; /*flags: execute only*/
     scode[20] = 0x00010000; /*align on 64K boundary*/

     scode[21] = 0x00000001; /*loadable segment*/
     /*offset in file patched later*/
     /*location in memory patched later*/
     scode[24] = 0x00000000; /*physical address not applicable*/
     scode[25] = 0x00000000; /*Takes no file space*/
     scode[26] = msize; /*size of array in memory*/
     scode[27] = 0x00000006; /*flags: read and write*/
     scode[28] = 0x00010000; /*align on 64K boundary*/

     /*two instructions to set %o1 (pointer) patched later*/
     a = scode + 31;
     if (cnums[46] || cnums[44]){
         if (!cnums[46]){
             *a++ = 0x90102000; /*or %g0, 0, %o0*/
             *a++ = 0x82102003; /*or %g0, 3, %g1*/
         }
         if (!cnums[44]){
             *a++ = 0x90102001; /*or %g0, 1, %o0*/
             *a++ = 0x82102004; /*or %g0, 4, %g1*/
         }
         *a++ = 0x94102001; /*or %g0, 1, %o2*/
     }
     b = getc(input);
     while (b != EOF){
         switch (b){

         case '[':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))=='[' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
/*aaa*/     if (!ccflag){
                 *a++ = 0xd60a4000; /*ld [%o1], %o3*/
                 *a++ = 0x80a2e000; /*subcc %o3, 0, %g0*/
                 ccflag = 1;
/*aaa*/     } else if (*a&0xff800000==0x32800000){/*pathological case "]["*/
/*aaa*/         *a++ = 0x013f3f21; /*sethi 3f3f21, %g0*/
/*aaa*/     }
             while (c--) *sptr++ = a;
             a += 2; /*backpatch later.*/
             break;

         case ']':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))==']' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
/*aaa*/     if (!ccflag){
                 *a++ = 0xd60a4000; /*ld [%o1], %o3*/
                 *a++ = 0x80a2e000; /*subcc %o3, 0, %g0*/
                 ccflag = 1;
/*aaa*/     }
             disp = (a - *--sptr);
             **sptr  = 0x22800003 + disp; /*be,a disp+3*/
             *plptr++ = *sptr+1;
             *a = 0x32c00003 - disp; /*bne,a -disp+3*/
             a[1] = (*sptr)[2];
/*aaa*/     if (a[1] == *a){ /*pathological case "[]"*/
/*aaa*/         *a = 0x32800000; /*bne,a 0*/
/*aaa*/         a[1] = 0x013f3f21; /*sethi 3f3f21, %g0*/
/*aaa*/     }
             while (--c){
                 disp = (a - *--sptr);
                 **sptr = 0x22800003 + disp; /*be,a disp+3*/
                 *plptr++ = *sptr+1;
             }
             a += 2;
             psource = a;
             break;

         case '<':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))=='<' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
             *a++ = 0x92a26000 + c; /*subcc %o1, c, %o1*/
             ccflag = 0;
             break;

         case '>':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))=='>' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
             *a++ = 0x92826000 + c; /*addcc %o1, c, %o1*/
             ccflag = 0;
             break;

         case ',':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))==',' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
             if (cnums[46]){
                 *a++ = 0x90102000; /*or %g0, 0, %o0*/
                 *a++ = 0x82102003; /*or %g0, 3, %g1*/
             }
             while (c--) *a++ = 0x91d02008; /*ta 8*/
             ccflag = 0;
             break;

         case '.':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))=='.' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
             if (cnums[44]){
                 *a++ = 0x90102001; /*or %g0, 1, %o0*/
                 *a++ = 0x82102004; /*or %g0, 4, %g1*/
             }
             while (c--) *a++ = 0x91d02008; /*ta 8*/
             break;

         case '+':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))=='+' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
             if (!ccflag){
                 *a++ = 0xd60a4000; /*ld [%o1], %o3*/
                 ccflag = 1;
             }
             *a++ = 0x9682e000 + c; /*addcc %o3, c, %o3*/
             *a++ = 0xd62a4000; /*st %o3, [%o1]*/
             break;

         case '-':
             c = 1;
             while ((b=getc(input))=='-' && ++c || b!=EOF && nonbf[b]);
             if (!ccflag){
                 *a++ = 0xd60a4000; /*ld [%o1], %o3*/
                 ccflag = 1;
             }
             *a++ = 0x96a2e000 + c; /*subcc %o3, c, %o3*/
             *a++ = 0xd62a4000; /*st %o3, [%o1]*/
             break;

         default:
             b = getc(input);
             break;

         }
         while (plptr > plist && a > psource){
             **--plptr = *psource;
         }
     }
     fclose(input);

     *a++ = 0x90102000; /*or %g0, 0, %o0*/
     *a++ = 0x82102001; /*or %g0, 1, %g1*/
     *a++ = 0x91d02008; /*ta 8*/
     while (plptr > plist && a > psource){
         **--plptr = *psource;
     }
     psize = (a - scode)*4;
     scode[22] = psize; /*patch offset in file (end of program).*/
     scode[23] = psize + 0x00010000; /*address in memory of array*/
     scode[17] = scode[18] = psize - 0x00000074; /*Size of program*/
     scode[29] = 0x13000000 + (scode[23] >> 10); /*sethi %o1, 22 bits*/
     scode[30] = 0x92126000 + (scode[23] & 0x000003ff); /*or %o1, 10, %o1*/

     fwrite(scode, 1, psize, output);
     fclose(output);
     exit(0);
}


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:36:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
[...]
> POINTS FOR SURPRISE: 0

Well, if you're really good, perhaps one day I'll tell you a secret.

[...]
> > It all just doesn't ring true.
> Did you try *listening*?

Yes.  And having some exposure to madness, this reads more like an
engineered attempt at nuisance.  So tough.

> *rrrring*
> *rrrring*
> *rrrring*

Oh, I get it.  Yes, of course, now I see the insanity.  'Cause *I* said
the word ring, then you simulated the SOUND EFFECTS.  Ohhhhhh.

That would be sarcasm.  More apologies are in order for it, I suppose.

> > Sorry 'bout that...
> No matter how many times you apologize to the phone, the ringing won't
> stop.  I'm sorry.  *shrug*  That's just how phones WORK.  <<waves hands
> in frustration>>  I thought you said you worked for the telephony
> industry.

And you think they work the same for me as they do for you?  Computers
work differently for programmers than users, right...?

> > > > Do they have any
> > > > relation to comments I've made?
> > > Yes!  This is a game of Sink!  See, it even says it in the Topic Box
> > > <<points to the subject line of this e-mail>>!
> > Sure.  I could see that.  If you really want.
> [Sink Time-Out]
> Well, I'm only asking you to be reasonable, right?  If we're going to
> play Sink, we should probably play Sink.  If we're going to play some
> other game we should probably announce that fact.

Not really.  It seems far more productive, entertaining, and
interesting in a sociological sense to have everyone play their own
game, and to see how well the "arbitrary" games intersect.

> I can totally see anyone thinking that the games of Raise and Sink are
> just time-wasters, and sure, they waste time, any game can.  So if you
> want to not play them, that's fine.  But then, you have to not play
> them, you have to find or make up some other game to play.  Yes?

No.

> btw, here's your football back.  I apologize, I don't ordinarily like to
> resort to such petty means but I thought you deserved it at the time.

Oh, you just do that sometimes.  I've grown rather used to it.  If you
feel the need to police the field, that's your own business.

> [Sink Time-In]

Or not.  Depends what you're playing.

> > > > Or are you just showing how much more
> > > > evolved you are, growing out of the need for data...?
> > > <<looks around; tries to look at own back>>...it's showing?  Well that
> > > would make sense, since I haven't done a lot to try to conceal my state
> > > of being CLEARLY MAD.
> > > Besides, it's not true.  *Everyone* needs to eat.  (YUM!)  But when I
> > > ask for sweet potatoes, I want sweet potatoes, dammit! Not *lima beans*!
> > Rocks and twigs are also edible, in the classical sense, I should point
> > out.  They're just not nearly as digestible or nutritious.  They're
> > closer to potatoes, sweet or otherwise, however.
> <<watches John run down the infield>>
> <<waves hands>>  I'm over here.

No you're not.  You're down there.  Quit that.

> [Sink Time-Out]
> OK.  That was a good *tangential* sink maneouver.  However, again,
> anyone can go off and sink whatever objects lying around the playfield
> they happen to find.  For example, just because stones are classically
> considered inedible and non-nutritious does not mean that certain kinds
> of parrots in the Amazon do not find clay to be a critical component
> of their diet to cancel out the poisoning effects of the beans that
> compose the rest of their food intake.

Clay does not consist of rocks and twigs.  Lima beans may, however,
appear to, if cooked improperly.

> See?  Tangential sinks are fun, but it's only a step away from that, to
> splitting into two games of Solo Sink, and, well, see what I said about
> Solo Sink.  Group Sink is more fun I think!
> [Sink Time-In]
> Yo, I'm over here!  And my point stands.  Rocks and twigs, like lima
> beans, are *not* sweet potatoes!  Neither are horseradishes or
> horsecarriages or horses!

They most certainly are.  How do you think they *hide* from you, eh?
When you're looking for them, you can't always find them, right?  Where
do you think the *go*?

Next time you're hungry, count the number of horse-drawn carriages in
the fridge.  The answer may surprise you...

> > > > [...]
> > > > > > > > ergo it should be moved
> > > > > > > > out of reality, and out of any fictional universe, too, unless all
> > > > > > > > entities coexist simultaneously.
> > > > > > > > Top *that*.
> > > > > > > I think we already did... by agreeing to abandon that "sum of all
> > > > > > > quantum realities" crap, as Gary suggested.
> > > > > > Nah.  That's pseudo-real.  I'm talking pure imaginary.  Stuff that's
> > > > > > physically discontinuous from all potential realities.
> > > > > OH!  Like THAT stuff, over THERE!  <<points>>
> > > > > "It's sooooo imaginary that no one can even imagine it!!!"
> > > > No, no.  The stuff *behind* it.
> > > Consider it sunk!  What about the stuff behind THAT?
> > The unimaginable thingie over there?  If you want.
> Grabbed!  And... SUNK!

Nobody wanted it, anyway.

> <<chris does an *annoying* little victory dance on the 10-Burke line>>

Watch out for the 1 Burke line.  Yep.  The same line.

> > It's not my cup of
> > tea.  It probably should have gone along with the other stuff,
> > actually.  Not unlike my cup of tea.
> <<Chris is about to grab the cup and sink it, then pauses...>>
> That's close, I guess.  You can try again if you like.  It's *your* cup
> of tea, I'd feel bad sinking it without your permission.

Well, I don't really like tea, so it's not really there, anyway.

> > > > Look, move *this* out of the way, and
> > > > this...gosh, I don't even *know* what the hell this is.  Ick...Well,
> > > > anyway, *that* is the stuff to which I'm referring.
> > > THAT stuff?  That stuff was obsolete thirty years ago!
> > True.  But still appropriate to the topic at hand.
> Indeed!  It may in fact be too *new* for our purposes.  Can't trust
> these new-fangled gadgets after all, no one understands them, we had
> better stick to tradition in this instance!  Tradition has never steered
> us wrong!

That's because nobody lets it drive.

> > Or is that a foot?
> I count three, making it a yard.

Which makes it about a quarter-acre.  Which I guess is a Burke, just
for simplicity.

> > > > But don't look too hard at it, otherwise it'll do something
> > > > unspeakable, unimaginable, and indescribable.
> > > Exactly why I *don't* look too hard at it, and that seems to be what
> > > lets me *see* it in the first place.
> > Nah.  It's just because this week is on the violet side of three.
> > Other workdays, you're lucky if you can smell the aftershocks.
> I agree.  And you probably suspected that I would, given that you're
> presumably aware that I'm CLEARLY MAD by now...

It's still not happening for me.

> so why did you preface
> with a "Nah"?  To attempt to *make* me disagree?

I've invoked my retroactive continuum-manipulating abilities to pre-
disagree after the fact in some places, most likely.  Or they did.

> Which seems reasonable, after all when I ask for sweet potatoes I'm not
> asking for horses.  If I ate a horse, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't agree
> with me at all! 

Well, a half-eaten horse is almost certainly going to be disagreeable.

> I'd be on the toilet for weeks!
> ("Shut *up*, Jenny!  You're being a twit."  "I know, but this guy
> deserves it!")

Oh, she's just being pissy because I know she's not quite imaginary.

> > > > > > > I think you'll have to go beyond "real" and "imaginary" to find
> > > > > > > something to sink next!
> > > > > > Complex.  Which is, y'know...too complex.
> > > > > What's so complex about combining real and imaginary elements?  Movie
> > > > > theatres do it all the time.
> > > > They use neither.  They use the spam of fantasy and reality...
> > > Interesting.  I was completely unable to obtain spam at the last movie
> > > theatre I went to.  All they had was popcorn covered in Yellow Die #5,
> > > bathtubs of ice water with a little Coca-Cola syrup in it somewhere, and
> > > fourty-cubic-Burke boxes of Smarties.
> > > Certainly no overprocessed meat products on sale at the concession
> > > stand.
> > They're not going to just *give* them to you.  You have to know who to
> > ask.
> Indeed, I asked the girl behind the concession stand.  She didn't know
> what I was talking about.  So I asked the usher.  He gave me some ticket
> stubs so I ate those instead.  So I talked to the manager.  He told me
> the spam was locked up... "for my own good."

See?  They have it.

> "Right!" I said.  I figured this guy wasn't going to budge, games of
> Sink, Raise, Debate, or otherwise.  Come to think about it, I didn't
> feel like eating spam anyway.  Who the F*** likes SPAM???  **barf**  So
> I sat back and watched the movie, unfettered by spam.  It was great!  I
> never went back to eating spam.  My taste buds do not object to that
> decision in the slightest...

Ah, but you watched it's audio-visual counterparts, surely, as that is
a strong ingredient in many movies.  Except "Chicken Run."

> > Besides, did you check through all the Smarties?  Frothy cubist Burkes
> > of 'em are certain to contain nigh anything.  And then some.
> That is true.  In fact, I once bought boxes of Smarties left and right
> because "20% OF BOXES CONTAIN A FREE PRIZE!" was labelled on them...
> until I ran out of money, and barfed Smarties on my bathroom door!

I didn't think you were supposed to actually *eat* them.  The boxes,
maybe, but not the Smarties...

> I looked in all the boxes and in not one of them did I find a free
> prize!  I was P$SSED.  Until I realized I was looking TOO HARD!  If you
> cut off the top 20% of the box you can use it as a HAT, and THAT is the
> FREE PRIZE!  Now ALL the boxes contain previously unimaginable goodies!

"Previously unimagined," I would think.  I've imagined hats quite
often, previous to that event.

> > > > > I object to them on the basis that not everybody has consistent and
> > > > > reliable access to them, though.
> > > > > I mean, on the basis that *some* people *do* have consistent and
> > > > > reliable access to them.
> > > > > I mean, on the basis that sometimes their floors are sticky and it
> > > > > freaks me out to hear "kzzt kzzt kzzt" as I walk around in them.
> > > > If I have to actually spell this out for you in greater detail than I
> > > > already have, I'm going to recommend you take a day off or something.
> > > No, see, you're not playing Sink very well, here.  Which is strange,
> > > because you've demonstrated a remarkable aptitude for it thus far!
> > It's not really play if you have to stick with it, now is it...
> Tell that to an NFL linebacker or a concert pianist.

They both said I was right.  It's a "different sort of fun."  Of
course, they were the same person.  And invisible.

> Then tell that to a improv comic or a jazz musician.

The improv guy flipped me the bird, which I take as an agreement,
because a little breading and lightly fried, and the bird made a damn
fine meal.  The jazz musician was unavailable for comment.  He was too
busy practicing.  Next door to the doctor.

> Lighten up, you're not just a Turing Machine, unless that's what you
> choose to be.  Even the most stringent rules have a degree of
> flexibility.  You can stick to it or slide away from it as you choose. 

Thank you for your permission.  I'm sure it'll come in handy, one day.

> I'm not saying there are no ramifications to such a choice.

Ramifications?  Astonishing!

> > > "I sink you, go away" is just about the crudest possible maneouver in
> > > Sink, and makes for a terribly uninteresting game.  Any practiced Sink
> > > player learns this pretty quickly.  Solo Sink isn't very much fun!
> > Maybe not to you.
> If you like it so much, go play it!

You don't know that I don't.

> Your actions tell me that you like Group Sink better, or you'd just
> stop.

Again, you're the only one claiming that I've *started*.  The fact that
there is some incidental intersection between games does not make them
a continuous game.

> > Of course, that would appear to be the eventual
> > goal, regardless of motivation and hue.
> The "eventual goal" is unknown, why labour under the misapprehension
> that it has "appeared" to you?
> We're just playing Sink, and *I* think you're just sore because I'm
> beating the hell out of you at it.

If you'd like to think so, go right ahead.  It must improve your self-
image drastically, I'm sure. 

This, too, was sarcasm, but not in nearly the mean-spiritedness of the
previous "attack," and therefore comes with no apology.

> > > (Besides, I just STOLE your football.  Live with it!  :-)
> > American or European?  Or African, for that matter?
> You tell me, it's your football.  I don't know where you got it.

Hey, all I know is it came out of this guy's trenchcoat.  I didn't want
to look to hard to see what continents were in there.



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:17:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [Perceptive Observer] oh, the games we play

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> > Chris Pressey wrote:
> > > Thank you!  Jenny is quite happy to do without the rancid timbits of the
> > > moral relativists!
> > Oh, that reminds me. After attending a performance of the Carnegie Hall
> > Jazz band at Davies Hall in SF last night, I withdraw at least 75% of
> > my contention that booing is rude. Walking out while the band is playing,
> > now that's rude.

Incidentally, it must be pointed out that walking out is rude to the
*audience,* and not the performer.  If it could be done with a minimum
of fuss and disruption (like if you're in an aisle seat), this is
possibly the most effective way of displaying satisfaction while still
not being rude.

Of course, I don't believe it's being *fair*, since it means you're
unlikely to allow an innovative piece to "sink in," but I see it as a
fairly good solution, overall.

> Yes.  It is, isn't it.  Hm... that's an interesting way to spend your
> quatloos.
> That, and letting your cellphone ring and then answering it and
> conversing on it *during the play* without leaving the theatre - yes
> this actually happened, I wasn't there, but I read about it in my local
> newspaper - these actions have eclipsed booing entirely on the rudeness
> scale.

I've seen it happen at Broadway shows.  Dramas, no less.  A coworker
tells me that someone sitting not two rows in front of him was actually
yelled at by (leading man) Brian Dennehy during...uhm..."The Iceman
Cometh," I think it was.

I'm quickly developing a worldview where anyone using a cellphone in
public should be shot on sight.  I'm still trying to find a way to bill
it in such a way that everyone will come on board before they realize
that they're the targets.

This, too, is rude not so much to the performers (though they get
interference from it, too), but for the people around, and it extends
right into restaurants, train rides, and anyplace else these people
congregate.

[...]



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:13:04 -0300

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> > It all just doesn't ring true.
> 
> Did you try *listening*?
> 
> *rrrring*
> 
> *rrrring*
> 
> *rrrring*
> 
> > Sorry 'bout that...
> 
> No matter how many times you apologize to the phone, the ringing won't
> stop.  I'm sorry.  *shrug*  That's just how phones WORK.  <<waves hands
> in frustration>>  I thought you said you worked for the telephony
> industry.

	*ROFL*, I'll HAVE to try that sometime soon. I have a feeling that the
phone /will/ stop ringing. My rooommate might leave if he witnesses it, but
you've got to take risks in life.

> [Sink Time-Out]
[...]
> [Sink Time-In]

	It's traditionally "CAR!" and "GAME ON!" that you yell. Of course, if
you yell "CAR!" while playing sink... you just *know* what the brawniest player
is going to do...

> > > Interesting.  I was completely unable to obtain spam at the last movie
> > > theatre I went to.  All they had was popcorn covered in Yellow Die #5,
> > > bathtubs of ice water with a little Coca-Cola syrup in it somewhere, and
> > > fourty-cubic-Burke boxes of Smarties.
> > > Certainly no overprocessed meat products on sale at the concession
> > > stand.
> > They're not going to just *give* them to you.  You have to know who to
> > ask.
> 
> Indeed, I asked the girl behind the concession stand.  She didn't know
> what I was talking about.  So I asked the usher.  He gave me some ticket
> stubs so I ate those instead.  So I talked to the manager.  He told me
> the spam was locked up... "for my own good."

[CAR]
	I'll have to try that too. Literally.
[GAME ON]

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:26:32 -0300

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Greg Velichansky wrote:
> > > I sink the doing of X if X is sunk.
> > 
> > 	I sunkenly sink the sinking of the doing of some sunken X. Ha!
> 
> I sink the "Ha!"
> 
> Ha!
> 
> Furthermore, I sink, raise up, and sink again the meaning of X as 
> a placeholder for some arbitrary sinkable concept.
> 
> Also, the notion that some concept can be invoked after being sunk for
> the second time is hereby sunk and replaced with a llama. After all, you only
> sink twice.

	I sink myself, such that I can get lost[23] and play with all of the
neat things in the Pool.

[23] http://www.isn.net/~goat/goat/journey/j5.html

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:31:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 24 Apr 2001, at 13:09, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 12:45, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > > How about playing question tennis? If you don't know the rules, just
> > > > answer the question with another question, and I'll tell you if you broke
> > > > the rules.
> > > > How about playing question tennis?
> > > Can I return your serve?
> > Would that be polite?
> > Panu

Heh...Statement!

> Would that matter?

Does anybody else even understand how futile it is to play this across
e-mail?



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:33:47 -0300

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Greg Velichansky wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:44:37PM -0500, Chris Pressey wrote:
> > The fun is all in how you play it...
> > 
> > Greg Velichansky wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I sink being able to sink things by merely claiming that you sink them.
> > 
> > Oh, I know.  Let's give it a name.  As the rules say, it is sometimes
> > useful to name the objects thus sunk.  Let's call it an "id sink".
> 
> Haha. I sink the sink id premised upon which sinking is sinkable in the 
> context establishing the dichotomy of sinkable objects unsunk by 
> the grace of the "id sink" yet un-unsinkable through a contradiction 
> between rules and sunk predicates integral to the context establishing
> rules. 
> 
> Actually, I just write some meaningless jibberish, wasting the few
> moments of your life that you take to read it. It is a "time sink."

	Damn, that's /good/. That's a 'real' sink, too. I'll award you a Burke
of wooden nickels with my (idealized) profile on them.

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:36:34 -0300

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> Greg Velichansky wrote:
> > > Oh, I know.  Let's give it a name.  As the rules say, it is sometimes
> > > useful to name the objects thus sunk.  Let's call it an "id sink".
> > Haha. I sink the sink id premised upon which sinking is sinkable in the
> > context establishing the dichotomy of sinkable objects unsunk by
> > the grace of the "id sink" yet un-unsinkable through a contradiction
> > between rules and sunk predicates integral to the context establishing
> > rules.
> > Actually, I just write some meaningless jibberish, wasting the few
> > moments of your life that you take to read it. It is a "time sink."
> 
> Whoo-hoo!  Premiership sinking, Greg!  <<high-fives Greg>>
> 
> Phil E. Buster and Bob Fusskaittett would approve!
> 
> I find this game very fun when it's played this creatively!
> 
> My turn.
> 
> I raise everything except grace.
> 
> No, wait.  This one's much better:
> 
> Anyone who uses the word "grace" is CLEARLY a devout Christian sheep
> incapable of formulating their own thoughts - much less making decisions
> based on them!!!  "Sink by association!"

	CLEARLY.

	I (or did you do it?) just sunk that whole paragraph. CLEARLY.
Perhaps I also let the cat out of the bag... 

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:45:43 +0200
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all

On 24 Apr 2001, at 10:31, John Colagioia wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > On 24 Apr 2001, at 13:09, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 12:45, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > > > How about playing question tennis? If you don't know the rules, just
> > > > > answer the question with another question, and I'll tell you if you broke
> > > > > the rules.
> > > > > How about playing question tennis?
> > > > Can I return your serve?
> > > Would that be polite?
> > > Panu
> 
> Heh...Statement!
> 
> > Would that matter?
> 
> Does anybody else even understand how futile it is to play this across
> e-mail?

Rhetorical question!

Whose serve is it?


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: [Compression Trick on Slashdot]
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:42:05 +0100

I just read an article on Slashdot, about this exchange:
http://www.geocities.com/patchnpuki/other/compression.htm

Now, in .: style you could use the filename for "compression":

Given uncompressed file UNC of size n bytes. Its directory entry uses up m
Bytes, making a total n+m bytes of diskspace.  You can "compress" the file
to n-m bytes of diskspace by encoding the m bytes in the filename, and it
would take up less diskspace [given that the m bytes are valid filesystem
characters, but even if they are not, you could compress by m/2 bytes by
encoding the position, too.] A very dedicated hacker could also use the
possible file attributes to squeeze another 5 bits or so :). And then there
is the filedate.






------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: [Question Tennis]  tangent from "[Sink]"
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:43:33 -0300

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> How about playing question tennis?

	Why should I?

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:02:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 24 Apr 2001, at 10:31, John Colagioia wrote:
> > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 13:09, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 12:45, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > > > > How about playing question tennis? If you don't know the rules, just
> > > > > > answer the question with another question, and I'll tell you if you broke
> > > > > > the rules.
> > > > > > How about playing question tennis?
> > > > > Can I return your serve?
> > > > Would that be polite?
> > > > Panu
> > Heh...Statement!
> > 
> > > Would that matter?
> > Does anybody else even understand how futile it is to play this across
> > e-mail?
> Rhetorical question!

How is that rhetorical?

> Whose serve is it?

Do *you* want to serve?



------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:09:42 +0200
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all

On 24 Apr 2001, at 11:02, John Colagioia wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > On 24 Apr 2001, at 10:31, John Colagioia wrote:
> > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 13:09, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 12:45, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > > > > > How about playing question tennis? If you don't know the rules, just
> > > > > > > answer the question with another question, and I'll tell you if you broke
> > > > > > > the rules.
> > > > > > > How about playing question tennis?
> > > > > > Can I return your serve?
> > > > > Would that be polite?
> > > > > Panu
> > > Heh...Statement!
> > > 
> > > > Would that matter?
> > > Does anybody else even understand how futile it is to play this across
> > > e-mail?
> > Rhetorical question!
> 
> How is that rhetorical?
> 
> > Whose serve is it?
> 
> Do *you* want to serve?



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:12:37 +0200
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all

On 24 Apr 2001, at 11:02, John Colagioia wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > On 24 Apr 2001, at 10:31, John Colagioia wrote:
> > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 13:09, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 12:45, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > > > > > How about playing question tennis? If you don't know the rules, just
> > > > > > > answer the question with another question, and I'll tell you if you broke
> > > > > > > the rules.
> > > > > > > How about playing question tennis?
> > > > > > Can I return your serve?
> > > > > Would that be polite?
> > > > > Panu
> > > Heh...Statement!
> > > 
> > > > Would that matter?
> > > Does anybody else even understand how futile it is to play this across
> > > e-mail?
> > Rhetorical question!
> 
> How is that rhetorical?

It's a statement: "It's futile to play this across email", reformulated 
as a question. Rhetorical in my book.

> 
> > Whose serve is it?
> 
> Do *you* want to serve?

Would you rather serve me?

--
Simon Montagu
email: simon@softel.co.il

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Compression Trick on Slashdot]
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:59:00 -0300

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote:
> I just read an article on Slashdot, about this exchange:
> http://www.geocities.com/patchnpuki/other/compression.htm

	I just read some of this... I haven't finished it, but the statement

Before naming the individual and giving additional details of our
correspondence, I would like to give him some time to analyze the
data I will be sending him.  It would be very easy to point out to
him the impossibility of his task, but far more interesting to see
how long he will struggle with the problem before realizing it for
himself.

	*really* gets me. It's fairly arrogant, anyhow. I think the big error in
it is that while the compressor won't be able to do this to all data, it could
very well be geared to some finite set. Sure there could be something I'm
missing, but I'm fairly sure that any (sufficiently large, for practicality)
finite set could be done this way. Unless of course there's "prime data" which
is... interesting.

	One simple method, of course, would be to "crack" it from the md5 sum
and the filesize, though that's not infallable, since md5 sums aren't as unique
as they're touted (take a random string, grab the md5, take the md5 of that,
and so on... at some point it will repeat, and sooner than you'd expect, on
average... according to my tests -- which shows that more than one string has
the same sum... it also happens to be a string to be the same length,
unless it repeats to the first sum.) Of course, you could do the crack
yourself, and note any bad occurrences, then provide the index of the correct
match. This isn't infallable, but better.

	No one said anything about a time limit.

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:14:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 24 Apr 2001, at 11:02, John Colagioia wrote:
> > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 10:31, John Colagioia wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 13:09, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > > > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 12:45, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > > > > > > How about playing question tennis? If you don't know the rules, just
> > > > > > > > answer the question with another question, and I'll tell you if you broke
> > > > > > > > the rules.
> > > > > > > > How about playing question tennis?
> > > > > > > Can I return your serve?
> > > > > > Would that be polite?
> > > > > > Panu
> > > > Heh...Statement!
> > > > 
> > > > > Would that matter?
> > > > Does anybody else even understand how futile it is to play this across
> > > > e-mail?
> > > Rhetorical question!
> > How is that rhetorical?
> It's a statement: "It's futile to play this across email", reformulated 
> as a question. Rhetorical in my book.

Statement!  Hahahahaha!

> > > Whose serve is it?
> > Do *you* want to serve?
> Would you rather serve me?

Do I have that option?



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:16:03 +0000 (UTC)
From: Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay,

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> On 24 Apr 2001, at 11:02, John Colagioia wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
[...]
> > > Whose serve is it?
> > 
> > Do *you* want to serve?
[...]
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?

Is that your play?

-- 
Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:15:35 -0300

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:
> Well, yet another language has sprung from my fingertips, this one 
> tentatively titled Dumbf*ck.

> .	Flip low-order bit

> ?	If low-order bit of current cell is set, jump back to previous ?, else 
> jump forward to next ?

	Am I to assume that a loop might look like this:

?{loop code}?.?

	or does it interpret the ? it lands on, a la:

?{loop code}??

	or am I completely wrong?

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.




------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:22:27 +0200
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all

On 24 Apr 2001, at 11:14, John Colagioia wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > On 24 Apr 2001, at 11:02, John Colagioia wrote:
> > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 10:31, John Colagioia wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 13:09, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 12:45, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > > > > > > > How about playing question tennis? If you don't know the rules, just
> > > > > > > > > answer the question with another question, and I'll tell you if you broke
> > > > > > > > > the rules.
> > > > > > > > > How about playing question tennis?
> > > > > > > > Can I return your serve?
> > > > > > > Would that be polite?
> > > > > > > Panu
> > > > > Heh...Statement!
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Would that matter?
> > > > > Does anybody else even understand how futile it is to play this across
> > > > > e-mail?
> > > > Rhetorical question!
> > > How is that rhetorical?
> > It's a statement: "It's futile to play this across email", reformulated 
> > as a question. Rhetorical in my book.
> 
> Statement!  Hahahahaha!

Do you expect me to start a separate thread to respond to your 
objections to my comments on the game?

I'll be AFK for a few hours, let someone else carry on the game

> 
> > > > Whose serve is it?
> > > Do *you* want to serve?
> > Would you rather serve me?
> 
> Do I have that option?



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:20:18 -0300

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Steve Mosher wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:
> > Well, yet another language has sprung from my fingertips, this one 
> > tentatively titled Dumbf*ck.
> 
> > .	Flip low-order bit
> 
> > ?	If low-order bit of current cell is set, jump back to previous ?, else 
> > jump forward to next ?
> 
> 	Am I to assume that a loop might look like this:
> 
> ?{loop code}?.?
>
> 	or does it interpret the ? it lands on, a la:
> 
> ?{loop code}??
> 
> 	or am I completely wrong?

	I screwed this one up, it should look more like:

?{loop code}??.?

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.




------------------------------

From: "Matthew Westcott" <matthew.westcott@oriel.oxford.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:35:49 +0100
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Special bargain for movie lovers ...

On 24 Apr 2001, at 12:56, 50008001@yahoo.com wrote:

> > > E-Z To follow Assembly Instructions.

Say, THAT'S a novel topic for an esolang mailing list...

> > > THE CABLE MANUAL! This manual contains hard to find information your
> > > cable company does not want you to know.

<rrring, rrring>
"Hello? I'd like to complain about the manual I bought from you."
"Yes, what seems to be the problem?"
"Well, the advert promised that it would contain hard to find 
information my cable company didn't want me to know. This book 
doesn't contain any such thing."
"Oh, it does, it's just hard to find."


Matthew Westcott


------------------------------

From: <x9ss@yahoo.com>
Subject: 10 Million Email Addresses, Stealth Mass Mailer & More..              
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:33:53 -0700


-- Unable to decode HTML file!! --


------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: 10 Million Email Addresses, Stealth Mass Mailer & More.. 31626
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:32:59 -0300

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, x9ss@yahoo.com wrote:
> -- Unable to decode HTML file!! --

	I /like/ this... Chris, this might be a good idea... drop HTML-only
messages, it should eliminate a good deal of spam.

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:46:45 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck


>         or does it interpret the ? it lands on, a la:

Good point.  the ? landed on at the end of a jump is -not- interpreted.

I intentionally designed this looping construct to be obtuse, and I'm 
having trouble using it -myself-, so it's likely to change.
Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:00:33 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: 10 Million Email Addresses, Stealth Mass Mailer & More..


>         I /like/ this... Chris, this might be a good idea... drop HTML-only
>messages, it should eliminate a good deal of spam.

I can't see the headers of the posters to this list, but in the past I've 
found that dropping messages that lacked an X-Mailer header cut about 70% 
of spam.
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:47:37 -0300

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:
> >         or does it interpret the ? it lands on, a la:
> 
> Good point.  the ? landed on at the end of a jump is -not- interpreted.
> 
> I intentionally designed this looping construct to be obtuse, and I'm 
> having trouble using it -myself-, so it's likely to change.

	Hehe, it is quite obtuse, I still think that this is really neat
(realizing I'd screwed it up _again_):

?{loop}?.?
v------^1v
       ^-v

	which loops once, and doesn't execute the {loop} code, but the code
that sets the low-order bit. Now I see what Panu was talking about... I should
really be doing proper traces more often (never had to with 'normal'
languages... to the annoyance of my teachers...)

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.




------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:58:29 -0700
From: Brian Raiter <breadbox@muppetlabs.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck

> ?	If low-order bit of current cell is set, jump back to previous ?, else
> jump forward to next ?

As Panu indicates, this appears to have the effect of making half the
code unreachable. Unless, of course, a second way of jumping is added.

And what happens if it tries to jump back from the first "?"? or jump
forward from the last "?"?  Undefined behavior?

b




------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:59:57 -0300

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Brian Raiter wrote:
> > ?	If low-order bit of current cell is set, jump back to previous ?, else
> > jump forward to next ?
> 
> As Panu indicates, this appears to have the effect of making half the
> code unreachable. Unless, of course, a second way of jumping is added.

	Hmm... my revised loop code is like this:

	??{loop}?

	At least I'm no longer setting the low-order bit explicitly. It's not
actually that bad... just don't put code there. Or do, for fun/obscurity. It
could also be used to write DeCSS (I know, "enough" - but they deserve all they
get on this front) in non-executable form. You could write DeCSS in your
non-executable loops, then delete the first '?' in the file to actually make
use of it. The executable code could be designed to strip out cascading style
sheets, for extra points.

> And what happens if it tries to jump back from the first "?"? or jump
> forward from the last "?"?  Undefined behavior?

	Heh, exit and return a code signifying which 'side' the program exited
on.

-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.




------------------------------

From: "Matthew Westcott" <matthew.westcott@oriel.oxford.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:14:10 +0100
Subject: Re: [Compression Trick on Slashdot]

On 24 Apr 2001, at 11:59, Steve Mosher wrote:

['Perfect' compression]
> 	One simple method, of course, would be to "crack" it from the md5 sum
> and the filesize, though that's not infallable, since md5 sums aren't as unique
> as they're touted

I don't know who's been touting md5 checksums as being the slightest 
bit unique, but they seriously need a reality check. md5 checksums 
are something like 1024 bits long (whatever - that's not really 
important). That means there are 2^1024 possible md5 checksums. There 
are 2^8388608 possible 1Mb long files, so on average a single md5 
checksum will correspond to 2^8387584 different 1Mb files.

> Of course, you could do the crack
> yourself, and note any bad occurrences, then provide the index of the correct
> match. This isn't infallable, but better.

This would fail for the reason above - on average the pairing of md5 
checksum and index number would be precisely the same length as the 
original file.

There's a bit of a loophole in that explanation, in that I've used 
the phrase "on average", and you might just hit lucky and get given 
some data which works much, much better than average (that is, it 
gives you enough leeway to fit your decompression program into the 
space you've saved). However, the chance of this happening is 2^(size 
of your program in bits) to one, which for all conventional 
programming languages, is considerably worse odds than the 50:1 bet 
offered here.
Now, unconventional languages, on the other hand... To be honest, I'm 
surprised that this guy was prepared to accept the one-line shell 
script
gunzip $1
as a valid decompressor. It's only a short step from there to 
creating a purpose-built 'language' a la HQ9+ ... <evil grin>


Matthew Westcott


------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Compression Trick on Slashdot]
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:14:30 -0300

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Matthew Westcott wrote:
> On 24 Apr 2001, at 11:59, Steve Mosher wrote:
> 
> ['Perfect' compression]
> > 	One simple method, of course, would be to "crack" it from the md5 sum
> > and the filesize, though that's not infallable, since md5 sums aren't as unique
> > as they're touted
> 
> I don't know who's been touting md5 checksums as being the slightest 
> bit unique, but they seriously need a reality check. md5 checksums 
> are something like 1024 bits long (whatever - that's not really 
> important). That means there are 2^1024 possible md5 checksums. There 
> are 2^8388608 possible 1Mb long files, so on average a single md5 
> checksum will correspond to 2^8387584 different 1Mb files.
> 
> > Of course, you could do the crack
> > yourself, and note any bad occurrences, then provide the index of the correct
> > match. This isn't infallable, but better.
> 
> This would fail for the reason above - on average the pairing of md5 
> checksum and index number would be precisely the same length as the 
> original file.
> 
> There's a bit of a loophole in that explanation, in that I've used 
> the phrase "on average", and you might just hit lucky and get given 
> some data which works much, much better than average (that is, it 
> gives you enough leeway to fit your decompression program into the 
> space you've saved). However, the chance of this happening is 2^(size 
> of your program in bits) to one, which for all conventional 
> programming languages, is considerably worse odds than the 50:1 bet 
> offered here.

	True. Of course, you could go about trying to compress _that_ number.
It strikes me as difficult to come up with data that you just can't compress,
since that would be signifigant somehow, and you could use that as criteria...
Of course, it could work out to be that it keeps reaching upwards, as if you
keep getting indicies that you can't compress, so you have infinite (or near
infinite) recursion, that makes the file of equal or larger size.

	I'm not sold on the notion that no compressor could compress ALL
arbitrary data, at least after a certain size. Sure, it's counterintuitive, and
I'm sure there's a loot of proofs that all work within the box of CERTIFIED
INFORMATION THEORY, but the thing they're not taking into account is the
environment. Think about it, the OS & machine _is_ information, and all of its
processes are as well. If that's taken for granted (which it _must_ be, or
there is no code), much of your code can take advantage of the environment to
further some data. A compressor like this might have to come up with the exact
process, though.

> Now, unconventional languages, on the other hand... To be honest, I'm 
> surprised that this guy was prepared to accept the one-line shell 
> script
> gunzip $1
> as a valid decompressor. It's only a short step from there to 
> creating a purpose-built 'language' a la HQ9+ ... <evil grin>
> 
> 
> Matthew Westcott
-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:35:05 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

>Yes.  And having some exposure to madness, this reads more like an
>engineered attempt at nuisance.  So tough.

Are those two explanations necessarily the interesting ones, now?
-Daniel.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:55:41 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [Clearly Mad] Objectivist Apples (was Re: [List-Meta] Stupid Question)

Sunfall to-Ennien wrote:
> > Hm!  Sounds like you might want to get in touch with the
> > Universal Philosophical Agricultural Commission.
> Wow.  I definitely need to hook up with those folk.  Maybe they can help me with my damned
> Platonic lilies as well . . . the buggers keep trying to twist each other into these lovely
> shapes, and talk about concretes and absolutes and whatnot, but they end up destroying each other
> with the jaggeed bends.  Argh.

Ah!  I know what you mean.  I just got Jenny to punch some holes in mine
and string 'em together into some nice jewelry for her.  Very befitting
for a faery.  But there are probably better things to do with them,
too.  Boil them to make Platonic Soup perhaps!  I dunno, just tossing
out ideas here...

> > I don't know exactly where their offices are located but my Trade Envoy
> > suggests: http://www.deoxy.org/mckenna.htm (but I think she's just being
> > rude, so take that as you will)
> I'll have to agree on the 'just being rude' bit.

I agree too.  She does that a lot.

Hey, has it occured to anyone that I might be possessed by a *demon*?

Well I mean it's possible, right?  I mean, it would be very clever for a
demon to disguise herself as a faery to gain my trust.  I wouldn't put
that past any given demon.

But then again, if she is, she's not doing a very impressive job.  Her
scale of mischief does seem to be a lot closer to that of a faery than
that of a demon.  Chaotic Good, I think, if you dig the D&D alignment
system... just with a heavy emphasis on the Chaotic bit.  Probably too
heavy.

The thing is - I realize some of you haven't been around long enough to
witness my ENTIRE descent into madness... and so much of it might come
across as me merely being insane.  Not so.  It was a long hard climb to
get up here.  And there's very little precedent for it that I can find. 
The guy who runs the mailing list - the guy who has been doing esoteric
programming for as long as or longer than anyone else on the list - just
up and "snaps" one day.

Well, I'm sure it's happened on *some* mailing list, but I have very
little direct comparison for it... not knowing of many other esoteric
programming lists.  I imagine someone running (I dunno) a renaissance
dancing mailing list would snap in an entirely different way.

But Jenny's been whispering at me (and otherwise shoving me around)
since - well probably for a long time, certainly since Befunge, which is
eight years old.  She, uh, goaded me into letting it go... so that she
could *eat* it.  (Gluttonous little bitch!  I swear, no end to her
appetite...)

It's just that I decided to start listening to her, because it was
obvious the things I were doing to try to ignore her weren't working. 
In fact a lot of them just caused her to become more insistent.  So I
gave in.  Hello, Faery Kingdom!  Sure, it's not real, it's just a model,
it's just illustrative - but it's *self-consistent*... I mean, if you're
a core wars program, other core wars programs are very real to you, even
though you're both imaginary, right?

> I have a hunch that http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0595094724/002-9374111-0979202 is a
> good starting point, though.

Heh!  Very rude^H^H^H^Hcool!  I mean - I knew exercise was important...
but I guess it all depends on how you do it!

Besides... what do you think plants *grow* in?  :-)

> > Hey: anything beats trying to sell bushels of Objectivist Apples by the
> > side of the road, right?  ;-)
> I'd end up just throwing the things into the road and letting them revolutionize the steel
> industry on the fly.  Take /that/, axiomatic gits!

Speaking of axioms and steel, Isuzu has a new SUV called the "Axiom":
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m4PRN/2000_April_20/61723659/p1/article.jhtml

Now your local Dilbert-esque know-nothing manager can be a Proud Axiom
Owner even if he doesn't know what the word means, or even a stitch of
math.  They got some right geniuses working at Isuzu, I think.

> > > Indeed, the most annoying thing about it, by far, is the fact that the title really /is/
> > > Disney/Pixar's Toy Story Racer.
> > Hm... suppose:
> > A rose by any other name would NOT be a rose.  It'd be a <<insert what
> > other name you chose for it here>>.
> True and false.  If a rose by any other name is not a rose, then it never was a rose.

OK, but that assumes "roseness" is immutable.  Is it?

Probably.  Well, no.  I can tear a rose apart and it is no longer a
rose, it becomes rose petals and rose stem powder (for lack of a better
term.)  Well, yes.  The roseness is still there, but it's been modified
by petalness and powderness.  Well, no.  At some point you can reduce it
down to molecules like chlorophyll et al without it being a rose
anymore...

...hell, *I* dunno.  I don't grow roses.

> > P.S.  How much are tickets going for?  I think it'd be really
> > interesting to catch this performance while I'm in town.  :-D
> Afraid they're sold out.  Chances are fair that you can buy a few from a scalper at the door, but
> the hearsay is that the performance this weekend is going to be truly fantastic -- no less than
> fifty mimes crushed, plus another hundred singed -- so chances are good that the prices will be
> exorbitant. :/

Yowza!  Maybe, if I can't find a scalper, I can find a nearby hill and a
good pair of binoculars.  I know, I won't get a great view, and I could
probably afford the tickets, but I'm a cheapskate by habit.  Hey, I
could always catch the play-by-play on the radio I guess, but we all
know how much that just leaves to the imagination :-)

> I used to know the doorman, but they mistook him for a mime a few weeks ago when he forgot to wash
> off after his last Vampire: The Masquerade roleplaying session, and he was pressed into mime
> service.

*N=E4kk=E4l=E4j=E4rvi*

> Unfortunately, 'pressed' ended up being more than a euphemism.

Poor guy!  Lesson: be *very* careful with make-up!  :-)

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:01:22 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all

shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 24 Apr 2001, at 13:09, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > On 24 Apr 2001, at 12:45, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > > How about playing question tennis? If you don't know the rules, just
> > > > answer the question with another question, and I'll tell you if you broke
> > > > the rules.
> > > > How about playing question tennis?
> > > Can I return your serve?
> > Would that be polite?
> Would that matter?

Isn't this an incredibly fun game?

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:17:01 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta]


>Do you expect me to start a separate thread to respond to your
>objections to my comments on the game?

Wouldn't that be optimal?
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:08:23 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > "I sink you, go away" is just about the crudest possible maneouver in
> > Sink, and makes for a terribly uninteresting game.  Any practiced Sink
> > player learns this pretty quickly.  Solo Sink isn't very much fun!
> I know! Let's play meta-Sink!

Ach!  I sink meta-sink and the mechanisms of self-reference and
abstraction in general!  Flithy habits!

> I'd say that complaining about other peoples
> habits when playing "Sink" is just about the fluffiest move to make. And
> you don't want to fluff, do you? (open question tennis)

I sink fluff.  Calling other people's complaints "fluffy" is about the
most pseudo-sanguine sink tactic imaginable.  On the basis that I have
no idea what I am talking about, I also sink imitating other people's
sink tactics, besides, it's just cheesy.  Oops, there I go again.

I sink cheese.  No wait, I raise it again, eat it, and sink the wrapper.

Yum!

I wonder if they play this game in mental institutions a lot?!?

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

From: "Matthew Westcott" <matthew.westcott@oriel.oxford.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:12:05 +0100
Subject: [lang] [Announce] Smurf: a self-propagation tarpit


Here's my new language - the warped offspring of Muriel and Forth. 
It's resulted from an attempt to cut down Muriel to the absolute 
minimum, and I've managed to eliminate quite a lot of the operations 
which (I *think*) can be achieved via creative (ab)use of variable 
names.
I suspect that parsing user input, and any form of arithmetic 
(there's no native support for numbers) will be absolutely 
horrendous, but possible...


Matthew Westcott




-- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar --
-- Desc: Text from file 'smurf.txt'

------------------------------
Smurf - Language Specification
------------------------------

Smurf = String-based MURiel Forthoid

Smurf is a tarpit based on the self-propagation paradigm featured in Muriel.
The only native data type is the string, and operations are carried out on
strings in a forty manner.

(At first I was reluctant to call the language Smurf after I found that there
was already a humourous email in circulation regarding a fictional (I hope
so, anyway...) language called Smurf. However, a Google search for "smurf
programming language" revealed this link:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:everything2.com/index.pl%3Fnode%3DForth+smurf+programming+language
I can only assume that this is a sign from a divine entity that there is
indeed a connection between Smurfs and the Forth programming language, so I'm
certainly not going to argue.)

The Smurf environment consists of a program (a string of characters), a stack
on which strings are stored, and a variable store which behaves as in a
standard imperative language - string values are labelled with a name, which
is also a string. Any string can be used as a variable name, including the
empty string. All variable values are initially set to the empty string.

The program consists of a sequence of instructions, which may be separated
with whitespace. Whenever an instruction takes a parameter from the stack,
that parameter is removed from the stack.

"insert some profound text here"
  - Places the string on top of the stack (without the quotes). The string
    may include the following escape sequences:
    \n = newline
    \" = the " character
    \\ = the \ character

+ - concatenates the top two strings on the stack. The string pushed earlier
    appears earlier in the resulting string, eg
    "Zork" "mid" +
    would result in the string "Zorkmid" being placed on the stack.

i - takes a string from user input, and places it on the stack.

o - outputs the topmost string on the stack.

p - Pops a variable name from the stack, pops a value from the stack, and
    assigns that value to the variable name.

g - Pops a variable name from the stack, and pushes the value of the
    variable.

h - Pops a string from the stack, and pushes its head, ie the first
    character. This causes an error if used on the empty string.

t - Pops a string from the stack, and pushes its tail, ie all but the first
    character. This causes an error if used on the empty string.

q - "Quotifies" the string on top of the stack, so that it can be placed
    into a Smurf program as a literal string, eg
    Arthur "two-sheds" Jackson
    becomes
    "Arthur \"two-sheds\" Jackson"
    NOTE: This differs from the quotify operator in Muriel, because it adds
    the surrounding quotes as well.

x - Executes the string on top of the stack as a Smurf program. The stack
    and variable store are cleared before it is executed.

--------------------------------
smurf.pl - the Smurf interpreter
--------------------------------
Usage:
smurf.pl <smurf program file>

Error messages are in the form of They Might Be Giants quotes. (I apologise
for my lack of knowledge of the works of Bjork, but if anyone would care to
provide me with appropriate quotes, I'll happily incorporate a command line
option to enable Icelandic Pop Diva Mode in the next version.)

"It's hard to understand me from the language I use
There's no word in English for my style":
The interpreter encountered an unrecognised program instruction.

"When the indicator says you're out of gas
Should you continue driving anyway?":
The program attempted to pop a value from the stack when it was empty.

"Roll out that special head
This is our favourite one":
The h instruction was used on the empty string.

"I'm not done
And I won't be till my head falls off":
The t instruction was used on the empty string.

"I was just talking and someone interrupted
Or was it a loud explosion?":

The terminating " of a string expression was missing.

----------------------
Example Smurf programs
----------------------
1. HelloWorld.smu
"Hello World!"o

2. Quine.smu
"\"\"p\"\"gqo\"\"go"""p""gqo""go

3. Echo.smu
io "\"a\"p \"io\" \"a\"gq+ \"a\"g+ x" "a"p "io" "a"gq+ "a"g+ x

-- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar --
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The following section of this message contains a file attachment
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If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  smurf.pl
     Date:  24 Apr 2001, 16:05
     Size:  3899 bytes.
     Type:  Unknown


-- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar --
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-- File: smurf.pl





------------------------------

From: "Matthew Westcott" <matthew.westcott@oriel.oxford.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:27:37 +0100
Subject: [lang] Re: [Announce] Smurf: a self-propagation tarpit


Well, seeing as the listbot didn't appreciate my lovingly crafted 
Perl script, I'll have another go at sending it...

Matthew Westcott



-- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar --
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If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

   ---- File information -----------
     File:  smurf.pl.txt
     Date:  24 Apr 2001, 16:05
     Size:  3899 bytes.
     Type:  Text


-- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar --
-- Type: Application/Octet-stream
-- File: smurf.pl.txt





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:28:28 +0300
From: Juha =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E4rvi?= <mooz@welho.com>
Subject: [Befunge] [Announce] Bef'93 implementation for the TI-86

Hi!

I thought I'd post about a Befunge interpreter for the TI-86 calculator
that I finished a while ago.
The thing is available at:
http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/oma/quux/befunge.html

It's not strict Befunge '93, I chose features from newer implementations
that seemed nice and kept the spirit of the language. The calculator is
a fairly limited platform so the stack is only 8 bits and ` is the only
command where the numbers are treated as signed.


Highlighted features:
- 'High-res-textmode' ie. the font is so small it's hard to read
- Primitive debugger, currently shows program, stack and single-steps
- Fairly compatible, most importantly Hunt the Wumpus works
- 'Freeze' programs (read on)
- OS-friendly, only debugger clears the graph screen like many TI games

Bugs:
- The internal program selection menu crashes if you do anything wrong
- Keyboard acts funny when the batteries are low. Exit always works.


The interpreter has been quite throughly tested and the actual Befunge
programs seem to work without crashing. The source is also somewhat
optimized so Befunge programs run _way_ faster than TI-BASIC ones.

All programs must begin with
befShort sescription here
followed by a line break and the ascii program data, up to 128x32
characters. Nothing weird in the format, just don't ever run the program
outside the Befunge interpreter or the silly thing will tokenize it as
a basic program, messing everything up. There's no protection because I
wanted to be able to code in Befunge with the regular program editor.

Failure to follow there guidelines will make the program crash. Should
it just hang, the exit key will perform a hasty exit and attempt to
freeze the program. This means that you'll get a variable named
'BeFrozen' that contains the program and binary junk. You can recall it
to another program to make a backup, the junk will stay intact. Upon
loading, program execution will resume exactly where it left off. This
is great for lengthy tasks with the slow calc, or to cheat in Wumpus :)

I'll update the debugger if anyone shows any interest. And I'll write
docs even. To get you started, first select a program with the arrow
keys, then press [2nd]. There's no prompt for inputting characters, just
press the keys, they produce the character printed in blue on the
keyboard. Unlike normal TI operation, [2nd] works like shift in
computers. There's no way to input numbers as characters yet, but the
actual number prompt works. Exit exits. In the debugger version, [2nd]
will step, [more] will animate. You can unly see the output in the
non-debugger-version (I was lazy).

In my opinion this befunge interpreter is good, reliable and and fast.
I use it exclusively when I code myself. I hope it's good enough for
you too. I think I'll update it after school's over. Sources are coming
after I've cleaned up all the 'zbxvs'-type labels or stopped trying.

Oh yes, run it by typing
asm(bef
I've never tested it with a shell. It may work. Don't run it without
any Befunge programs on the calc! It'll crash. Get my quicksort for
testing purposes for example. The debugger version is called bef2.

There's also going to be some Befunge programs at the site, currently
only alphabetical quicksort for strings (with colour-coded source even)

Regards,
Juha



------------------------------

From: "Matthew Westcott" <matthew.westcott@oriel.oxford.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:14:54 +0100
Subject: [lang] Re: [Announce] Smurf: a self-propagation tarpit

> -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar --
> -- Type: Application/Octet-stream
> -- File: smurf.pl.txt

Bah. Even the bot's playing Sink now. You'd better get it from 
http://demo.raww.net/muriel/ instead.


Matthew Westcott




------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:19:03 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: [Announce] Smurf: a self-propagation tarpit


>Well, seeing as the listbot didn't appreciate my lovingly crafted
>Perl script, I'll have another go at sending it...

Cut-and-paste it into your e-mail.

Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:16:47 +0300
From: Juha =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E4rvi?= <mooz@welho.com>
Subject: [lang] [Befunge] [Announce] Bef'93 implementation for the TI-86

Hi!

I thought I'd post about a Befunge interpreter for the TI-86 calculator
that I finished a while ago.
The thing is available at:
http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/oma/quux/befunge.html

It's not strict Befunge '93, I chose features from newer implementations
that seemed nice and kept the spirit of the language. The calculator is
a fairly limited platform so the stack is only 8 bits and ` is the only
command where the numbers are treated as signed.

I'm posting this here in addition to the old mailinglist since there's
apparently a chance of confusion right now. Please bear with me.


Highlighted features:
- 'High-res-textmode' ie. the font is so small it's hard to read
- Primitive debugger, currently shows program, stack and single-steps
- Fairly compatible, most importantly Hunt the Wumpus works
- 'Freeze' programs (read on)
- OS-friendly, only debugger clears the graph screen like many TI games

Bugs:
- The internal program selection menu crashes if you do anything wrong
- Keyboard acts funny when the batteries are low. Exit always works.


The interpreter has been quite throughly tested and the actual Befunge
programs seem to work without crashing. The source is also somewhat
optimized so Befunge programs run _way_ faster than TI-BASIC ones.

All programs must begin with
befShort sescription here
followed by a line break and the ascii program data, up to 128x32
characters. Nothing weird in the format, just don't ever run the program
outside the Befunge interpreter or the silly thing will tokenize it as
a basic program, messing everything up. There's no protection because I
wanted to be able to code in Befunge with the regular program editor.

Failure to follow there guidelines will make the program crash. Should
it just hang, the exit key will perform a hasty exit and attempt to
freeze the program. This means that you'll get a variable named
'BeFrozen' that contains the program and binary junk. You can recall it
to another program to make a backup, the junk will stay intact. Upon
loading, program execution will resume exactly where it left off. This
is great for lengthy tasks with the slow calc, or to cheat in Wumpus :)

I'll update the debugger if anyone shows any interest. And I'll write
docs even. To get you started, first select a program with the arrow
keys, then press [2nd]. There's no prompt for inputting characters, just
press the keys, they produce the character printed in blue on the
keyboard. Unlike normal TI operation, [2nd] works like shift in
computers. There's no way to input numbers as characters yet, but the
actual number prompt works. Exit exits. In the debugger version, [2nd]
will step, [more] will animate. You can unly see the output in the
non-debugger-version (I was lazy).

In my opinion this befunge interpreter is good, reliable and and fast.
I use it exclusively when I code myself. I hope it's good enough for
you too. I think I'll update it after school's over. Sources are coming
after I've cleaned up all the 'zbxvs'-type labels or stopped trying.

Oh yes, run it by typing
asm(bef
I've never tested it with a shell. It may work. Don't run it without
any Befunge programs on the calc! It'll crash. Get my quicksort for
testing purposes for example. The debugger version is called bef2.

There's also going to be some Befunge programs at the site, currently
only alphabetical quicksort for strings (with colour-coded source even)
Please send comments!

Regards,
Juha





------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:19:39 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeffry Johnston <jeffryj@primenet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck



On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:

> Well, yet another language has sprung from my fingertips, this one 
> tentatively titled Dumbf*ck.
> You have seven instructions.
> <	move right one "cell" (8 bits) (a la Brainf*ck)
>  >	move left one cell
> /	Rotate value right three bits
> .	Flip low-order bit
> ,	Output cell
> '	Input cell
> ?	If low-order bit of current cell is set, jump back to previous ?, else 
> jump forward to next ?
> 
> I don't have a Hello World yet, but I've figured out how to print Hell, and 
> it looks like this:
> ././/////,>./././/.////,/.///////.,,
> 

LOL.. I like it :)
Jeff





------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:39:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeffry Johnston <jeffryj@primenet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck


On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Steve Mosher wrote:

> It could also be used to write DeCSS (I know, "enough" - but they
> deserve all they get on this front)

Do you know of an 8088 ASM DeCSS implementation?  I could embed it in my
executable bitmaps.. that would be great fun! :)

http://www.primenet.com/~jeffryj/dual.html
Yes I've posted this a few times too many.. oh well :/  BF interpreter in
BMP format, probably one of my best esoteric projects :)  

BTW, is anyone going to try to write that Numberix Roman numeral program?
Cliff? ;)

Jeff






------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:50:26 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck


>http://www.primenet.com/~jeffryj/dual.html
>Yes I've posted this a few times too many.. oh well :/  BF interpreter in
>BMP format, probably one of my best esoteric projects :)

Y'know, just realized something.  I have about two years of near-continuous 
research in image watermarking here on my machine.  (It was back when the 
idea was pretty new, and I was trying to figure out a way for porn sites to 
conclusively prove pictures were "theirs" despite resizing, cropping, 
rotation, downsampling, etc.)  I could take your idea a step further and 
embed near-invisible code in images....

(When I was aiming the technology primarily at porn, I had an algorithm 
that specialized in hiding data in hair and freckles.  I also had one that 
did zits, for teenyporn. :-)

>BTW, is anyone going to try to write that Numberix Roman numeral program?
>Cliff? ;)

No. *grin*  It strikes me as a great way to liquefy my frontal cortex and 
leak it gradually out my ears.  Sort of like programming Hello World in 
Dumbf*ck, so far.  I'm quite fond of my three-bit-rotation-only 
paradigm--it's quite the braintwister, for me at least.

Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:02:13 -0700
From: Brian Raiter <breadbox@muppetlabs.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck

> BTW, is anyone going to try to write that Numberix Roman numeral
> program?

I cooled off on the idea when I realized that the only extant
interpreter was written in MS-DOS Basic. Programming "blind" in an
unfamiliar esoteric language seems like more than I have free time
for.

b




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:58:57 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

Duck!  Here comes the Snow Train!

John Colagioia wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> [...]
> > POINTS FOR SURPRISE: 0
> Well, if you're really good, perhaps one day I'll tell you a secret.

By the definition of "secret", that is impossible!  Once you tell it to
me, it is no longer a secret.

> [...]
> > > It all just doesn't ring true.
> > Did you try *listening*?
> Yes.  And having some exposure to madness, this reads more like an
> engineered attempt at nuisance.

Oh, and you expect me to believe that your maneouvers are *masterpieces*
of looniness?  They don't even come across as 'zany' or 'kooky'.  Barely
strange at all.  Why, you could walk into a classroom saying your thing,
and I'll bet no one there would even blink.

Face it, you're a rank amateur going up against one of the best.

OK, that's a little egotistical.  Let's just say you're going up against
someone who's genuinely competently insane.

> So tough.

So stop complaining and try wearing your false teeth, for a change!

> > *rrrring*
> > *rrrring*
> > *rrrring*
> Oh, I get it.

SO SINK IT ALREADY!  Quit fiddling with it as if this were a mere
gymnastic floor exercise and SINK the damn thing!  I didn't spend good
money on these tickets to see you clumsily Dance with the Ball, I want
you to SINK that F#cker!

...Any day now!

...I'm waiting!

> Yes, of course, now I see the insanity.

I thought you said you *already* has some exposure to it?  Why would it
be some sort of revelation then?

> 'Cause *I* said
> the word ring, then you simulated the SOUND EFFECTS.  Ohhhhhh.

Wow.  With the strength of a cat and the dexterity of a maple tree -
why, I think you just used *LOGIC*.

Wow, again.  How does it feel?

Maybe you better towel off before you try it again.  You don't want to
hurt yourself, now do you?

> That would be sarcasm.

Yeah.  That would be SARRRRCASM.  Ri-ight.  <<rolls eyes>>

But hey - that can't possibly matter, because sarcasm is "only
imaginary", right?  I mean you can't taste it, you can't touch it, you
can't hear it... at least not through e-mail... you can't smell it...
you can't see it... so it doesn't exist... right?

> More apologies are in order for it, I suppose.

I sink your supposition on the basis that you didn't say who should
apologize.  Like I said, watch your valency, you'll put an I out!

To whom are you referring, John?

> > > Sorry 'bout that...
> > No matter how many times you apologize to the phone, the ringing won't
> > stop.  I'm sorry.  *shrug*  That's just how phones WORK.  <<waves hands
> > in frustration>>  I thought you said you worked for the telephony
> > industry.
> And you think they work the same for me as they do for you?

Well, show me a phone that stops ringing whenever you apologize to it
and I'll admit I'm wrong!  Come on - SHOW ME!!!

Even if you show me one (and I find that unlikely...) I'd tell you that
it's a crappy design for a phone anyway.  If you don't want to answer
it, just leave it unplugged.  That's so much easier than showing remorse
to it over and over, no?

> Computers work differently for programmers than users, right...?

On the basis that computers ARE phones and phones ARE computers!  OF
*COURSE*!  Perhaps you can tell me what the primitive mathematical
operations provided by my phone are?  I see # and * keys, but...

> > > > > Do they have any
> > > > > relation to comments I've made?
> > > > Yes!  This is a game of Sink!  See, it even says it in the Topic Box
> > > > <<points to the subject line of this e-mail>>!
> > > Sure.  I could see that.  If you really want.
> > [Sink Time-Out]

(which, of course, could have merely been a ploy within the game of
Sink...)

> > Well, I'm only asking you to be reasonable, right?  If we're going to
> > play Sink, we should probably play Sink.  If we're going to play some
> > other game we should probably announce that fact.
> Not really.  It seems far more productive, entertaining, and
> interesting in a sociological sense to have everyone play their own
> game,

BZZT.  Contradiction!

SAYING "in a sociological sense" ANNOUNCES WHAT GAME YOU'RE PLAYING!

THE "SOCIOLOGY" GAME!

If you really felt it was unimportant to announce what game you're
playing you would have omitted any reference to sociology.

> and to see how well the "arbitrary" games intersect.

And you can't POSSIBLY do that when you're announcing what game you're
playing, huh?

You're just scared to give them names, b-UHH-ddy...

> > I can totally see anyone thinking that the games of Raise and Sink are
> > just time-wasters, and sure, they waste time, any game can.  So if you
> > want to not play them, that's fine.  But then, you have to not play
> > them, you have to find or make up some other game to play.  Yes?
> No.

Tag.  You're it!  I win!

> > btw, here's your football back.  I apologize, I don't ordinarily like to
> > resort to such petty means but I thought you deserved it at the time.
> Oh, you just do that sometimes.

Stating the obvious.

> I've grown rather used to it.

Stating the unimportant.

> If you feel the need to police the field, that's your own business.

Back to stating the obvious.

An OK time sink, but not as nice as Greg's.

Hercules whipped the Hydra's ass bigtime, anyway...

> > [Sink Time-In]
> Or not.  Depends what you're playing.

The topic box says [Sink].

[Sink Time-Through]

I've been honest about what game I'm playing.  Would you prefer to be
deceitful about what game you're playing?  Maybe you should read
http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/metagame.html again...

It also occurs to me if you go through life slipping from one game to
another, you'll only become good at slipping from one game to another,
and never become good at any of the other games... which would make for
a rather lonely existance, I reckon!

Are you lonely, John?  Is that why you keep responding to these e-mails
even though you keep professing how much you would rather just leave and
play Solo Sink?  Your actions and your words do not correlate very well.

> > > > > Or are you just showing how much more
> > > > > evolved you are, growing out of the need for data...?
> > > > <<looks around; tries to look at own back>>...it's showing?  Well that
> > > > would make sense, since I haven't done a lot to try to conceal my state
> > > > of being CLEARLY MAD.
> > > > Besides, it's not true.  *Everyone* needs to eat.  (YUM!)  But when I
> > > > ask for sweet potatoes, I want sweet potatoes, dammit! Not *lima beans*!
> > > Rocks and twigs are also edible, in the classical sense, I should point
> > > out.  They're just not nearly as digestible or nutritious.  They're
> > > closer to potatoes, sweet or otherwise, however.
> > <<watches John run down the infield>>
> > <<waves hands>>  I'm over here.
> No you're not.  You're down there.  Quit that.

Down here is where the action is.  I'm shedding a tear because you're
missing out.  And not for any good reason, either.  Just because you're
frightened!  It's so sad that it's friggin' hilarious!

> > [Sink Time-Out]
> > OK.  That was a good *tangential* sink maneouver.  However, again,
> > anyone can go off and sink whatever objects lying around the playfield
> > they happen to find.  For example, just because stones are classically
> > considered inedible and non-nutritious does not mean that certain kinds
> > of parrots in the Amazon do not find clay to be a critical component
> > of their diet to cancel out the poisoning effects of the beans that
> > compose the rest of their food intake.
> Clay does not consist of rocks and twigs.  Lima beans may, however,
> appear to, if cooked improperly.

Yet clay may appear to consist of rocks and twigs if cooked *properly*! 
This makes clay more fundamental than tweezers or tigers.

> > See?  Tangential sinks are fun, but it's only a step away from that, to
> > splitting into two games of Solo Sink, and, well, see what I said about
> > Solo Sink.  Group Sink is more fun I think!
> > [Sink Time-In]
> > Yo, I'm over here!  And my point stands.  Rocks and twigs, like lima
> > beans, are *not* sweet potatoes!  Neither are horseradishes or
> > horsecarriages or horses!
> They most certainly are.

Explain how that is so, when it is clear to everyone that horses are not
even sweet, much less potato-oriented.

> How do you think they *hide* from you, eh?

What do you mean?  I detect no hidden horses!

> When you're looking for them, you can't always find them, right?

I don't need to look for them!  I can usually hear them whinnying from
several Burkes away!  Which usually prompts me to throw my shoes out the
window in a vain attempt to drive them off!

> Where do you think the *go*?

I think "the go" is a how, not a where.

> Next time you're hungry, count the number of horse-drawn carriages in
> the fridge.

Which fridge?  I'm certain *your* fridge is chock full of horses. 
*Mine*, however, is not.  I *hate* horsemeat.  I'm honestly kind of
surprised that you don't.  I'll bet you're the kind of person who
prefers old-fashioned horse glue as well!

> The answer may surprise you...

Wow, you're wearing out the "stating the obvious" button here, dude!

As soon as an answer mayn't surprise you, you're dead in the water.

> > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > > > ergo it should be moved
> > > > > > > > > out of reality, and out of any fictional universe, too, unless all
> > > > > > > > > entities coexist simultaneously.
> > > > > > > > > Top *that*.
> > > > > > > > I think we already did... by agreeing to abandon that "sum of all
> > > > > > > > quantum realities" crap, as Gary suggested.
> > > > > > > Nah.  That's pseudo-real.  I'm talking pure imaginary.  Stuff that's
> > > > > > > physically discontinuous from all potential realities.
> > > > > > OH!  Like THAT stuff, over THERE!  <<points>>
> > > > > > "It's sooooo imaginary that no one can even imagine it!!!"
> > > > > No, no.  The stuff *behind* it.
> > > > Consider it sunk!  What about the stuff behind THAT?
> > > The unimaginable thingie over there?  If you want.
> > Grabbed!  And... SUNK!
> Nobody wanted it, anyway.

That matters... how?

Oh I might have hurt someone's FEELINGS.  Oh I SEE.  I'm a cruel
BASTARD.

Tell me something I don't know, for crying out loud!

> > <<chris does an *annoying* little victory dance on the 10-Burke line>>
> Watch out for the 1 Burke line.  Yep.  The same line.

Clearly NOT the same line, as they have different names!

> > > It's not my cup of
> > > tea.  It probably should have gone along with the other stuff,
> > > actually.  Not unlike my cup of tea.
> > <<Chris is about to grab the cup and sink it, then pauses...>>
> > That's close, I guess.  You can try again if you like.  It's *your* cup
> > of tea, I'd feel bad sinking it without your permission.
> Well, I don't really like tea, so it's not really there, anyway.

Then why do you drone *on* and *on* about it?  "My cup of tea, my cup of
tea."  *Christ a'mighty*!  Talking my ear off, boring me with details of
something you don't like that's not even really there!  Jeez, you're
just as bad as those new parents and their goddamn baby pictures!

Stand UP for yourself!  If you don't like tea then don't DRINK it!

> > > > > Look, move *this* out of the way, and
> > > > > this...gosh, I don't even *know* what the hell this is.  Ick...Well,
> > > > > anyway, *that* is the stuff to which I'm referring.
> > > > THAT stuff?  That stuff was obsolete thirty years ago!
> > > True.  But still appropriate to the topic at hand.
> > Indeed!  It may in fact be too *new* for our purposes.  Can't trust
> > these new-fangled gadgets after all, no one understands them, we had
> > better stick to tradition in this instance!  Tradition has never steered
> > us wrong!
> That's because nobody lets it drive.

I freakin' *told* it to drive, but it was too chickensh&t to get behind
the wheel.  It was afraid it was going to hit a fire hydrant and that
the burst of water would render its vision useless.  Or something.  It
was hard to tell, it was incoherent with fear.  So I rolled up the car
windows and let it suffocate in the heat.  I have no remorse for
cowards.

> > > Or is that a foot?
> > I count three, making it a yard.
> Which makes it about a quarter-acre.  Which I guess is a Burke, just
> for simplicity.

I guess you guess wrong.  Be specific, dammit!  IS IT OR ISN'T IT?!?

> > > > > But don't look too hard at it, otherwise it'll do something
> > > > > unspeakable, unimaginable, and indescribable.
> > > > Exactly why I *don't* look too hard at it, and that seems to be what
> > > > lets me *see* it in the first place.
> > > Nah.  It's just because this week is on the violet side of three.
> > > Other workdays, you're lucky if you can smell the aftershocks.
> > I agree.  And you probably suspected that I would, given that you're
> > presumably aware that I'm CLEARLY MAD by now...
> It's still not happening for me.

Now you've got me wearing out the "you're wearing out the 'stating the
obvious' button" button!

Hey, you're so good at being a contrarian, try being contrary to this
statement: It's still not happening for you.

Just try it.  Try claiming that it *is* happening for you.  See what
happens.

> > so why did you preface
> > with a "Nah"?  To attempt to *make* me disagree?
> I've invoked my retroactive continuum-manipulating abilities to pre-
> disagree after the fact in some places, most likely.

Just as I suspected!

> Or they did.

Ye-ah.  The devil made *me* do it, too.  Ri-ight.

> > Which seems reasonable, after all when I ask for sweet potatoes I'm not
> > asking for horses.  If I ate a horse, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't agree
> > with me at all!
> Well, a half-eaten horse is almost certainly going to be disagreeable.

!NIAGA suoivbo eht gnitats ,og uoy erehT

> > I'd be on the toilet for weeks!
> > ("Shut *up*, Jenny!  You're being a twit."  "I know, but this guy
> > deserves it!")
> Oh, she's just being pissy because I know she's not quite imaginary.

If by "not quite imaginary" you mean she's managed to infiltrate my
reality, and subsequently yours via this mailing list, then I'd agree
with you!

But surely you see then that NO imaginary thing is not "not quite
imaginary" - because they *all* infiltrate reality to some extent - do
they not?

OTOH, if by "not quite imaginary" you mean she actually inhabits a
physical body...

...I freakin' ***WISH***!  THEN we could have sex on MY terms!

> > > > > > > > I think you'll have to go beyond "real" and "imaginary" to find
> > > > > > > > something to sink next!
> > > > > > > Complex.  Which is, y'know...too complex.
> > > > > > What's so complex about combining real and imaginary elements?  Movie
> > > > > > theatres do it all the time.
> > > > > They use neither.  They use the spam of fantasy and reality...
> > > > Interesting.  I was completely unable to obtain spam at the last movie
> > > > theatre I went to.  All they had was popcorn covered in Yellow Die #5,
> > > > bathtubs of ice water with a little Coca-Cola syrup in it somewhere, and
> > > > fourty-cubic-Burke boxes of Smarties.
> > > > Certainly no overprocessed meat products on sale at the concession
> > > > stand.
> > > They're not going to just *give* them to you.  You have to know who to
> > > ask.
> > Indeed, I asked the girl behind the concession stand.  She didn't know
> > what I was talking about.  So I asked the usher.  He gave me some ticket
> > stubs so I ate those instead.  So I talked to the manager.  He told me
> > the spam was locked up... "for my own good."
> See?  They have it.

So?  They also have nitroglycerine.  Should I try to eat THAT?  I should
freakin' HOPE that I'm not stupid enough to blow myself up by eating
nitroglycerine!

Just because something is hard to get doesn't mean I want to eat it. 
That sort of philosophy is just stupid, as it leads to things like
eating gold bricks because they're locked up in Fort Knox...

But if you want to eat gold... hey be my guest!

> > "Right!" I said.  I figured this guy wasn't going to budge, games of
> > Sink, Raise, Debate, or otherwise.  Come to think about it, I didn't
> > feel like eating spam anyway.  Who the F*** likes SPAM???  **barf**  So
> > I sat back and watched the movie, unfettered by spam.  It was great!  I
> > never went back to eating spam.  My taste buds do not object to that
> > decision in the slightest...
> Ah, but you watched it's audio-visual counterparts, surely, as that is
> a strong ingredient in many movies.  Except "Chicken Run."

Look, I'm just going to write "STATING THE OBVIOUS" on this mallet here,
and the next time I see such happening from you, I'm going to just start
swinging it around irresponsibly, OK?  OK.

So.  Yes, when you watch a movie, you watch the movie.  Can we please
get out of the tautology pit, now?

> > > Besides, did you check through all the Smarties?  Frothy cubist Burkes
> > > of 'em are certain to contain nigh anything.  And then some.
> > That is true.  In fact, I once bought boxes of Smarties left and right
> > because "20% OF BOXES CONTAIN A FREE PRIZE!" was labelled on them...
> > until I ran out of money, and barfed Smarties on my bathroom door!
> I didn't think you were supposed to actually *eat* them.

Ah!  There's your #1 mistake.  Everyone's gotta eat.

> The boxes,
> maybe, but not the Smarties...

UGH!  Well, *there's* your problem!  I don't know *anyone* who ate
cardboard Smarties boxes who didn't subsequently get sick.

> > I looked in all the boxes and in not one of them did I find a free
> > prize!  I was P$SSED.  Until I realized I was looking TOO HARD!  If you
> > cut off the top 20% of the box you can use it as a HAT, and THAT is the
> > FREE PRIZE!  Now ALL the boxes contain previously unimaginable goodies!
> "Previously unimagined," I would think.

You would!  But you'd be understating it misleadingly.  They were in
fact previously *unimaginable*, only imaginable upon the discovery of
their imaginary prerequisites.

> I've imagined hats quite often, previous to that event.

But you didn't imagine unimaginable hats.  Only holes can do that. 
You're not a hole.  Unless you are.  In which case you won't mind if I
kick you.

> > > > > > I object to them on the basis that not everybody has consistent and
> > > > > > reliable access to them, though.
> > > > > > I mean, on the basis that *some* people *do* have consistent and
> > > > > > reliable access to them.
> > > > > > I mean, on the basis that sometimes their floors are sticky and it
> > > > > > freaks me out to hear "kzzt kzzt kzzt" as I walk around in them.
> > > > > If I have to actually spell this out for you in greater detail than I
> > > > > already have, I'm going to recommend you take a day off or something.
> > > > No, see, you're not playing Sink very well, here.  Which is strange,
> > > > because you've demonstrated a remarkable aptitude for it thus far!
> > > It's not really play if you have to stick with it, now is it...
> > Tell that to an NFL linebacker or a concert pianist.
> They both said I was right.

They're the same ones who said "Coach, I feel like doing something else"
and Coach said "Fine but you're off the payroll" and they said "fine..."
and where are they now?  Flipping burgers!

> It's a "different sort of fun."

We were talking about "sticking with it", not fun.  I didn't mention
fun, here.

> Of course, they were the same person.  And invisible.

That's a start.  At least the "OBVIOUS" mallet is staying by my side for
the time being...

> > Then tell that to a improv comic or a jazz musician.
> The improv guy flipped me the bird, which I take as an agreement,
> because a little breading and lightly fried, and the bird made a damn
> fine meal.

Congratulations.  I think this may be the first genuinely weird thing
you've uttered in this e-mail so far.

Did you flip him one back?  After all he's gotta eat, too!  To starve
him out would be cruel, wouldn't it?

> The jazz musician was unavailable for comment.  He was too
> busy practicing.

Sticking to it, in other words!  Play isn't *all* fun, you see.

> Next door to the doctor.

Which one?  Doctor Tongue?

> > Lighten up, you're not just a Turing Machine, unless that's what you
> > choose to be.  Even the most stringent rules have a degree of
> > flexibility.  You can stick to it or slide away from it as you choose.
> Thank you for your permission.

You're welcome.

> I'm sure it'll come in handy, one day.

Why, do you think you'll ever *need* it for something?  There would be
some that would call that "delusional"!

> > I'm not saying there are no ramifications to such a choice.
> Ramifications?  Astonishing!

Indeed!  Check it out sometime, it's called CAUSE AND EFFECT!

> > > > "I sink you, go away" is just about the crudest possible maneouver in
> > > > Sink, and makes for a terribly uninteresting game.  Any practiced Sink
> > > > player learns this pretty quickly.  Solo Sink isn't very much fun!
> > > Maybe not to you.
> > If you like it so much, go play it!
> You don't know that I don't.

I know that you're not *while* you're playing Group Sink with me...

> > Your actions tell me that you like Group Sink better, or you'd just
> > stop.
> Again, you're the only one claiming that I've *started*.

You're playing *something* with me... it resembles Sink... to some
degree...

I'm playing Sink.  You're continuing to play... whatever you're
playing.  It barely matters.  I'm being honest about what game I'm
playing.  Whether you choose to be honest about what game you're playing
or not - it barely matters.  Oh great.  Now *I'M* stating the obvious. 
Just look what you've done, here!

> The fact that
> there is some incidental intersection between games does not make them
> a continuous game.

I sink that!  It's all one big continuous game if you choose to look at
it that way!  Show how it cannot possibly be.

> > > Of course, that would appear to be the eventual
> > > goal, regardless of motivation and hue.
> > The "eventual goal" is unknown, why labour under the misapprehension
> > that it has "appeared" to you?
> > We're just playing Sink, and *I* think you're just sore because I'm
> > beating the hell out of you at it.
> If you'd like to think so, go right ahead.

I sink your permission.  I'm not under the impression that I need it.

> It must improve your self-image drastically, I'm sure.

And I'm sure you say things like that just so your self-image stays
exactly the same as it was yesterday.  After all, if you're not John
Colagioia.... who the F*CK are you?  Better stay John Colagioia.  At
least you know who that is.  It's safer that way.

> This, too, was sarcasm, but not in nearly the mean-spiritedness of the
> previous "attack," and therefore comes with no apology.

Mean-spiritedness?!?  This is a game of Sink and I don't know about you,
but I left all my low-order emotions at the door!  How many basketball
players do you see wearing strait-jackets anyway?

I mean, if I hadn't left my emotions at the door, this would just be a
game of "Abuse".  And that's so... passe'!

> > > > (Besides, I just STOLE your football.  Live with it!  :-)
> > > American or European?  Or African, for that matter?
> > You tell me, it's your football.  I don't know where you got it.
> Hey, all I know is it came out of this guy's trenchcoat.  I didn't want
> to look to hard to see what continents were in there.

Why did you expect me to know?  Did you see me in there?

Masterpiece of looniness, indeed!

I'm *waiting*...!

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:15:01 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeffry Johnston <jeffryj@primenet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck



On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Brian Raiter wrote:

> > BTW, is anyone going to try to write that Numberix Roman numeral
> > program?
> 
> I cooled off on the idea when I realized that the only extant
> interpreter was written in MS-DOS Basic. Programming "blind" in an
> unfamiliar esoteric language seems like more than I have free time
> for.

There is an MS-DOS build also, but maybe that doesn't help if you're
runnix *nix :)

Jeff





------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:16:28 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeffry Johnston <jeffryj@primenet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck



Almost forgot.. thanks for not complaining about my (mis)use of your
awesome Factoring program :)

Jeff





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:05:00 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay,all 

Daniel Biddle wrote:
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> Is that your play?

Shall I give 1,000 Zorkmids to Daniel for that *outstanding* return
shot?  :-)

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:18:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: [meta question tennis]


Is this a valid question in question tennis?






------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:09:01 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Special bargain for movie lovers ...

Matthew Westcott wrote:
> > > > THE CABLE MANUAL! This manual contains hard to find information your
> > > > cable company does not want you to know.
> <rrring, rrring>
> "Hello? I'd like to complain about the manual I bought from you."
> "Yes, what seems to be the problem?"
> "Well, the advert promised that it would contain hard to find
> information my cable company didn't want me to know. This book
> doesn't contain any such thing."
> "Oh, it does, it's just hard to find."

2,500 Zorkmids and a Bear Flower Petal (hey, I have to get rid of the
damned things somehow or they're just gonna rot away on me) to
Matthew... for turning SPAM into something I can appreciate!  :-)

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:20:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: [meta meta question tennis]


Is meta question tennis a commentary or a playable game?






------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:25:39 -0700
From: Brian Raiter <breadbox@muppetlabs.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck

> Almost forgot.. thanks for not complaining about my (mis)use of your
> awesome Factoring program :)

Complain? I'm flattered. Besides, I put it under the GPL.

b




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:23:12 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [games] [virtual machines] Programming game

So, in response to some comments made on the list, I'm starting work on a 
"programming game."  The basic concept is that you control an agent of some 
sort (probably a robot), which can either compete or cooperate with 
others.  I don't have much more than that worked out, other than that I'd 
like to have the game be multiplayer over the Internet via java applets.

For the actual programming part, I'm representing the robot internals with 
a sort of virtual machine.  People could program directly for the VM, or 
use whatever languages they can find or build that compile to it.  (The 
program would initially have all sorts of strange languages, probably 
including BF, Befunge, etc.)
Style points would be awarded for small programs, programs written in 
obscure languages, the most efficient completion of a task, etc.

So, the design of the VM is one starting point, and I'd like to toss ideas 
around the list on it.  It needs to be relatively fast, with a small 
footprint, and yet be reasonably flexible.  With my background, I'm of 
course thinking of something like the M68k (several general-purpose 
registers, basic stack capability, etc.) but something like the Java VM 
(almost entirely stack-oriented) could also be a possibility.
Thoughts?
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:26:46 +0200
Subject: Re: [meta meta question tennis]

On 25 Apr 2001, at 1:20, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:

> Is meta question tennis a commentary or a playable game?
Do you mean ((meta question)) tennis or (meta (question tennis))?



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:28:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: [meta meta meta question tennis]



On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> On 25 Apr 2001, at 1:20, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> 
> > Is meta question tennis a commentary or a playable game?
> Do you mean ((meta question)) tennis or (meta (question tennis))?
Doesn't that question belong here?



------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:37:25 +0200
Subject: [meta meta meta meta question tennis]

On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:28, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > On 25 Apr 2001, at 1:20, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > Is meta question tennis a commentary or a playable game?
> > Do you mean ((meta question)) tennis or (meta (question tennis))?
> Doesn't that question belong here?
Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?

--
Simon Montagu
email: simon@softel.co.il

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:40:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: [meta^5 question tennis]



On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:28, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 1:20, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > Is meta question tennis a commentary or a playable game?
> > > Do you mean ((meta question)) tennis or (meta (question tennis))?
> > Doesn't that question belong here?
> Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta meta question
tennis?



------------------------------

From: flo3564@yahoo.com
Subject: Need Money? Quick Approvals!
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 02:19:45 -0600


-- Unable to decode HTML file!! --


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:49:52 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeffry Johnston <jeffryj@primenet.com>
Subject: [lang] [BF] [calc] Casio Color Power Graphic CFX-9800G 


Here is a BF Interpreter for the Casio calc.  Please add this to the
esoteric calculator archive :)

Casio Color Power Graphic CFX-9800G
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
This calculator is rather limited in certain aspects so there is some work
involved in putting BF programs on it:

Make 3 matrices (A, B and C) with 1 row and a variable number of columns:
Matrix A: Program
Matrix B: Stack
Matrix C: RAM (not cleared)
There is room for about 320 maxtrix squares so divide them up wisely.

The calculator must be in MATRIX mode and this program must be entered
in one of the P0 thru PZ slots rather than the text editor mode.

Symbol Key:
-> assigning arrow
/| printing triangle
=> decision arrow
<> not equal
<= less than or equal to
/  division sign
(Note: each line is assumed to have <-| after it)

1->D:0->E
Lbl 2:1+E->E
Lbl 3:Mat A[1,E]->F:Mat C[1,D]->H
F=8=>Goto 7
F=0=>D+1->D
F=1=>D-1->D
F=2=>256Frac ((H+1)/256)->Mat C[1,D]
F=3=>256Frac ((H+255)/256)->Mat C[1,D]
F=4=>H/|
F=5=>?->Mat C[1,D]
F<>6=>Goto 6
H<>0=>Goto 5:1->I
Lbl 4:E+1->E
Mat A[1,E]=6=>I+1->I
Mat A[1,E]=7=>I-1->I
I<=0=>Goto 2:Goto 4
Lbl 5:1+G->G:E->Mat B[1,G]:Goto 2
Lbl 6:F<>7=>Goto 2
Mat B[1,G]->E:G-1->G:Goto 3
Lbl 7:"END"/|

This calculator has no understanding of strings or chars.. so encode your
BF program instructions as follows:

>	0
<	1
+	2
-	3
.	4
,	5
[	6
]	7
@	8 (end of program character)

A sample program for Matrix A: 
5,2,6,3,4,5,2,7,8 (or ,+[-.,+] an echo program, 255 to exit)

Enjoy <=K
Jeff





------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:50:41 +0200
Subject: meta^6 question tennis

On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:40, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:28, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 1:20, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > > Is meta question tennis a commentary or a playable game?
> > > > Do you mean ((meta question)) tennis or (meta (question tennis))?
> > > Doesn't that question belong here?
> > Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
> Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta meta question
> tennis?
What kind of questions would untrivialize it?

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:52:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeffry Johnston <jeffryj@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Need Money? Quick Approvals!


w00h00! load me up!!! cash, baybeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4

:P
Jeff

somehow knowing everyone is seeing this useless junk makes it less
painful :)

On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 flo3564@yahoo.com wrote:

> <HTML>
> <BODY>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Loan Application Form</TITLE>
> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
> <META content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0" name=GENERATOR>
> <META content="Cheryl N Knowles" name=Author>
> <SCRIPT language=JavaScript>
> 
> <!--
>  function validate(string) {
>      if (!string) return false;
>      var Chars = "0123456789 ";
> 
>      for (var i = 0; i < string.length; i++) {
>         if (Chars.indexOf(string.charAt(i)) == -1)
>            return false;
>      }
>      return true;
>  }
>  //-->
> 
> <!--
> function validate_form() {
> 	validity = true; // assume valid
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.Name.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Name field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.Address.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Address field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.City.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('City field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.PostalCode.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Zip Code field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.HPhone.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Home Phone field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.WPhone.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Work Phone field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.PropertyValue.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Property Value field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.Mortgage1.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Current Mortgage field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.PurchasePrice.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Purchase Price field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.YearAcquired.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Year Acquired field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.Employer.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Employer field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.BorrowRequest.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Amount to borrow field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.CurrentIntRate.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Interest Rate Field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.MonthlyGrIncome.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Monthly Gross Income field is empty!'); }
> 	if (!check_empty(document.form.MonthlyDebt.value))
> 	{ validity = false; alert('Monthly Debt field is empty!'); }
> 	(validity)
> 	alert ("Thank you for your registration! "
> 		+ "Your form is now being passed to your browser's "
> 		+ "Mail Delivery Sub-System for NORMAL"
> 		+ " NON-ENCRYPTED email delivery."
> 		+ " All email addresses are removed from our system"
> 	+ " upon registration. Please click OK to proceed");
> 	return validity;
> }
> function check_empty(text)
> 	{
> 	return (text.length > 0); // returns false if empty
> } // --></SCRIPT>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY text=#000040 vLink=#800080 aLink=#ff0000 link=#0000ff bgColor=#ffffff>
> <!-- CHANGE EMAIL ADDRESS IN ACTION OF FORM --><FORM name="form" method="post" action="&#109;&#97;&#105;&#108;&#116;&#111;&#58;&#98;&#111;&#110;&#101;&#49;&#49;&#64;&#117;&#111;&#108;&#101;&#46;&#99;&#111;&#109;&#63;&#115;&#117;&#98;&#106;&#101;&#99;&#116;&#61;&#77;&#111;&#114;&#116;&#45;&#76;&#111;&#97;&#110;" enctype="text/plain"
> 
>     onSubmit="return validate_form()">
> <DIV align=center>
> <CENTER>
> <TABLE width=600 border=0>
>   <TBODY>
>   <TR>
>     <TD background= bgColor=#ffffff height=285>
> 
>       <DIV align=center>
> 
> <p align="left"><font face="Arial" size="4" color="#000080"><b>Interest Rates have Dropped....Start Saving
> Now!</b></font>
> <p align="left"><b><font face="Arial" size="4" color="#000080">We
> Shop The Best Loan For You!</font></b><br>
> <br>
> <font face="Arial" size="2" color="#000080">
> The Money Lending Network is a 100% free service which lets you shop for a mortgage&nbsp;conveniently and securely from the comfort of your home. Using our vast network&nbsp;of lenders across the U.S., we will search our database of loan programs for the&nbsp;best loans that fit your needs.  Even if you're currently working with another&nbsp;lender or have been turned down before, we can still
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> Ready to get started?<br>
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> Simply fill out the our 60 second form, and we'll begin shopping for your loan.</font>
> <p align="left"><b><font face="Arial" color="#000080" size="3">It's that easy!</font></b>
>       <p align="left"><b><font color="#000080" face="Arial" size="3">We Make the
>       Lenders Compete for <u>YOUR</u> Business!</font></b>
>       <p align="left"><font face="Arial" size="3" color="#000080"><b>Please
>       complete this form. Our loan specialist will be contacting you at your
>       convenience. Thank You.</b></font></DIV>
>       <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=600 border=0>
>         <TBODY>
>         <TR>
>           <TD vAlign=top align=middle>
>             <HR align=center width="100%" color="#000080">
> 
>           </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
>       <DIV align=center>
>       <CENTER>
>       <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=599 border=0 height="732">
>         <TBODY>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Your
>             Full Name</b></font></TD>
>           <TD align=left width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT name=Name>*</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Address</b></font></TD>
>           <TD width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font face="Arial"
>             size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT name=Address>*</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>City</b></font></TD>
>           <TD width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font face="Arial"
>             size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT name=City>*</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>State(USA Only)</b></font></TD>
>           <TD width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font face="Arial"
>             size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><SELECT size=1 name=State maxlength="7"> <OPTION
>               value=AK selected>AK</OPTION> <OPTION value=AL>AL</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=AR>AR</OPTION> <OPTION value=AZ>AZ</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=CA>CA</OPTION> <OPTION value=CO>CO</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=CT>CT</OPTION> <OPTION value=DC>DC</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=DE>DE</OPTION> <OPTION value=FL>FL</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=GA>GA</OPTION> <OPTION value=HI>HI</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=IA>IA</OPTION> <OPTION value=ID>ID</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=IL>IL</OPTION> <OPTION value=IN>IN</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=KS>KS</OPTION> <OPTION value=KY>KY</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=LA>LA</OPTION> <OPTION value=MA>MA</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=MD>MD</OPTION> <OPTION value=ME>ME</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=MI>MI</OPTION> <OPTION value=MN>MN</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=MO>MO</OPTION> <OPTION value=MS>MS</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=MT>MT</OPTION> <OPTION value=NC>NC</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=ND>ND</OPTION> <OPTION value=NE>NE</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=NH>NH</OPTION> <OPTION value=NJ>NJ</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=NM>NM</OPTION> <OPTION value=NV>NV</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=NY>NY</OPTION> <OPTION value=OH>OH</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=OK>OK</OPTION> <OPTION value=OR>OR</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=PA>PA</OPTION> <OPTION value=RI>RI</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=SC>SC</OPTION> <OPTION value=SD>SD</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=TN>TN</OPTION> <OPTION value=TX>TX</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=UT>UT</OPTION> <OPTION value=VA>VA</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=VT>VT</OPTION> <OPTION value=WA>WA</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=WI>WI</OPTION> <OPTION value=WV>WV</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=WY>WY</OPTION></SELECT><U>*UNITED STATES
> ONLY!</U></font></TD></TR>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Zip/Postal Code</b></font></TD>
>           <TD width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font face="Arial"
>             size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT maxLength=15 size=10
> name=PostalCode>*</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Home Phone</b></font></TD>
>           <TD width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font face="Arial"
>             size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT maxLength=30 size=20 name=HPhone>*</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Work Phone</b></font></TD>
>           <TD width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font face="Arial"
>             size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT maxLength=55 name=WPhone></font></TD></TR>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Email Address</b></font></TD>
>           <TD width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font face="Arial"
>             size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT maxLength=30 name=Email size="26">*</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Best Time To Call</b></font></TD>
>           <TD width=346 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><SELECT size=1 name=CallTime>
>               <OPTION value="Morning at Home" selected>Morning at Home</OPTION>
>               <OPTION value="Morning at Work">Morning at Work</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value="Afternoon at Home">Afternoon at Home</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value="Afternoon at Work">Afternoon at Work</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value="Evening at Home">Evening at Home</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value="Late Evening at Work">Late Evening at
>             Home</OPTION></SELECT>&nbsp;*</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Do
>             You Own Your Home?</b></font></TD>
>           <TD width=346 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><SELECT size=1 name=Homeowner>
>               <OPTION value=Yes selected>Yes</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=No>No</OPTION></SELECT><STRONG>*Mobile Homes Do Not
>         Qualify</STRONG></font></TD></TR>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Property Value</b></font></TD>
>           <TD width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font face="Arial"
>             size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT
>             onchange="if (!validate (this.value >= 15000)) {&#10;               alert('Not Valid! Please enter a number greater than 50000 using only number characters in thousands(000)');&#10;&#9;&#9;&#9;this.focus();&#10;&#9;&#9;&#9;this.select();&#10;&#9;&#9;&#9;return false;&#10;            }"
>             size=13 name=PropertyValue>*  Numeric
>             Character in 000's</font> </TD></TR>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Property Type</b></font></TD>
>           <TD width=346 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><SELECT size=1 name=PropertyType>
>               <OPTION value="Single Family Residence" selected>Single Family
>               Residence</OPTION> <OPTION value=Condo>Condo</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=Townhouse>Townhouse</OPTION> <OPTION value="2-4 Plex">2-4
>               Plex</OPTION> <OPTION value=Other>Other</OPTION></SELECT>*</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Purchase Price</b></font></TD>
>           <TD width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"> <font face="Arial"
>             size="2" color="#FFFFFF"> <INPUT size=13 name=PurchasePrice>* Numeric
>             Character in 000's</font> </TD></TR>
>         <TR>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=middle width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080">
>             <DIV align=right>
>             <P><font face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Year Acquired</b></font> </P></DIV></TD>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=left width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT size=13
>             name=YearAcquired>  *</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR align=middle>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>1st
>             Mortgage-Balance Owed</b></font></TD>
>           <TD align=left width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT
>                onchange="if (!validate (this.value >= 0)) {&#10;               alert('Not Valid! Please enter a number 0 or greater');&#10;&#9;&#9;&#9;this.focus();&#10;&#9;&#9;&#9;this.select();&#10;&#9;&#9;&#9;return false;&#10;            }"
>             size=13 name=Mortgage1>*  Numeric
>             Character in 000's</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR align=middle>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>1st
>             Mortgage-Interest Rate</b></font></TD>
>           <TD align=left width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT size=13 name=CurrentIntRate>*</font>
>         </TD></TR>
>         <TR align=middle>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Is
>             1st Adjustable or Fixed?</b></font></TD>
>           <TD align=left width=346 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><SELECT size=1
>             name=FirstType maxlength="30"> <OPTION value=Fixed
>               selected>Fixed</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=Adjustable>Adjustable</OPTION></SELECT> *</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR align=middle>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>2nd
>             Mortgage Balance owed</b></font></TD>
>           <TD align=left width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT
>             onchange="if (!validate (this.value >= 0)) {&#10;               alert('Not Valid! Please enter a number 0 or greater');&#10;            }"
>             size=13 name=Mortgage2>  Numeric
>             Character in 000's</font> </TD></TR>
>         <TR align=middle>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Amount You Wish To Borrow</b></font></TD>
>           <TD align=left width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT
>             onchange="if (!validate (this.value >= 15000)) {&#10;               alert('Not Valid! Please enter a number of greater than 15000 with a combination of the following characters - 0123456789');&#10;&#9;&#9;&#9;this.focus();&#10;&#9;&#9;&#9;this.select();&#10;&#9;&#9;&#9;return false;&#10;            }"
>             size=13 name=BorrowRequest>* Numeric
>             Character in 000's</font> </TD></TR>
>         <TR align=middle>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Employer</b></font></TD>
>           <TD align=left width=346 bordercolor="#FFFFFF" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><INPUT maxLength=30 size=15
>             name=Employer>*</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR align=middle>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Monthly Gross&nbsp;Household Income</b></font></TD>
>           <TD align=left width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"> <font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"> <INPUT maxLength=30 size=15 name=MonthlyGrIncome>*
>             Must use numbers only</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR align=middle>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=right width=296 background="" height="11" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Monthly Debt (Excluding Mortgage)</b></font></TD>
>         </CENTER></CENTER>
>           <TD align=left width=346 height="11" bgcolor="#000080"> <font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"> <input type="text" name="MonthlyDebt" size="15">*
>             Must
>             use numbers only</font></TD></TR>
> <CENTER>
>       <CENTER>
>         <TR align=middle>
>           <TD borderColor=#FFFFFF align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Credit Rating</b></font></TD>
>           <TD align=left width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><SELECT size=1 name=CreditRating
>             maxlength="30"> <OPTION value="Please Select" selected>Please
>               Select</OPTION> <OPTION value=Excellent>Excellent</OPTION> <OPTION value=Good>Good</OPTION> <OPTION
>               value=Fair>Fair</OPTION> <OPTION value=Poor>Poor</OPTION></SELECT>
>           *</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR align=middle>
>           <TD borderColor=#FFFFFF align=right width=296 background="" height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><b>Loan Interested In</b></font></TD>
>           <TD align=left width=346 height="25" bgcolor="#000080"><font
>             face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF"><SELECT size=1 name=LoanInterested
>             maxlength="30"> <OPTION value="Debt Consolidation" selected>Debt
>               Consolidation</OPTION> <OPTION value="Second Mortgage">Second
>               Mortgage</OPTION> <OPTION value="Home Improvement">Home
>               Improvement</OPTION> <OPTION value=Refinance>Refinance</OPTION>
>               <OPTION value=Purchase>Purchase</OPTION></SELECT> *</font></TD></TR>
>         <TR align=middle bgColor=#000000>
>           <TD borderColor=#008000 align=middle width=646 colSpan=2 bgcolor="#000080" height="46">
>             <DIV align=center>
>             <P><font face="Arial" size="2" color="#FFFFFF">Fast &amp; Easy -You Are Done !
>             <BR><INPUT type=submit value="Submit This Application" name=send>
>             </font>
>             </P></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER></DIV></center></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV>
> </FORM>
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> </BODY></HTML>
> 
> 
> 
> 



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:52:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: [meta^7 question tennis]



On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:40, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:28, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 1:20, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > > > Is meta question tennis a commentary or a playable game?
> > > > > Do you mean ((meta question)) tennis or (meta (question tennis))?
> > > > Doesn't that question belong here?
> > > Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
> > Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta meta question
> > tennis?
> What kind of questions would untrivialize it?
Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta meta question tennis
topic rather than a meta meta meta meta meta meta question tennis topic?




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:56:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: [META(meta^n) question tennis]



On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:40, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:28, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 1:20, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > > > > Is meta question tennis a commentary or a playable game?
> > > > > > Do you mean ((meta question)) tennis or (meta (question tennis))?
> > > > > Doesn't that question belong here?
> > > > Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
> > > Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta meta question
> > > tennis?
> > What kind of questions would untrivialize it?
> Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta meta question tennis
> topic rather than a meta meta meta meta meta meta question tennis topic?
Isn't this starting to look pretty?




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:03:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeffry Johnston <jeffryj@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: [META(meta^n)+1 question tennis]



On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:40, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:28, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 1:20, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > > > > > Is meta question tennis a commentary or a playable game?
> > > > > > > Do you mean ((meta question)) tennis or (meta (question tennis))?
> > > > > > Doesn't that question belong here?
> > > > > Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
> > > > Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta meta question
> > > > tennis?
> > > What kind of questions would untrivialize it?
> > Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta meta question tennis
> > topic rather than a meta meta meta meta meta meta question tennis topic?
> Isn't this starting to look pretty?
What you say?



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:10:46 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeffry Johnston <jeffryj@primenet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck



On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:

> >BTW, is anyone going to try to write that Numberix Roman numeral program?
> >Cliff? ;)
> 
> No. *grin*  It strikes me as a great way to liquefy my frontal cortex and 
> leak it gradually out my ears.  

LOL! Can I use that quote on my webpage? 

Jeff







------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:16:17 +0200
Subject: [META_Epsilon question tennis]

On 25 Apr 2001, at 1:03, Jeffry Johnston wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:40, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:28, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 1:20, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Is meta question tennis a commentary or a playable game?
> > > > > > > > Do you mean ((meta question)) tennis or (meta (question tennis))?
> > > > > > > Doesn't that question belong here?
> > > > > > Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
> > > > > Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta meta question
> > > > > tennis?
> > > > What kind of questions would untrivialize it?
> > > Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta meta question tennis
> > > topic rather than a meta meta meta meta meta meta question tennis topic?
> > Isn't this starting to look pretty?
> What you say?
Do you guys have too much time on your hands?


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 03:04:13 -0500
From: Chuck the Parrot <chuck@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [meta^n(k) question-tennis]

shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> What kind of questions would untrivialize it?

Does meta^n(k) question-tennis show that meta^(n-1)(k) question-tennis
exhibits Godel incompleteness?

Or is that just me (for any given k)?

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:12:10 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: 10 Million Email Addresses, Stealth Mass Mailer & More..31626



"Cliff L. Biffle" wrote:
> 
> >         I /like/ this... Chris, this might be a good idea... drop HTML-only
> >messages, it should eliminate a good deal of spam.
> 
> I can't see the headers of the posters to this list, but in the past I've
> found that dropping messages that lacked an X-Mailer header cut about 70%
> of spam.
> Cliff Biffle

My silver bullet is to eliminate messages that don't have my address in
a To: or Cc: field. Provided they come from frederic.vdplancke@writeme.com
(which is my main source of spam) and they don't come from a list I
subscribed to (other filters take care of that):
99% success. (Don't tell the spammers, please !)

Actually they don't get eliminated, they move in a "z spam" folder so
that I can (quickly) check they're actual spam... Spam gets a lot less
annoying when it is isolated this way. It feels like you're outclevering
them.
I also keep the spam for the time I'll take counter-measures... (Perhaps
I better eliminate spam altogether.)

Frederic van der Plancke



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:17:06 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [Compression Trick on Slashdot]



Matthew Westcott wrote:
> 
> On 24 Apr 2001, at 11:59, Steve Mosher wrote:
> 
> ['Perfect' compression]
> >       One simple method, of course, would be to "crack" it from the md5 sum
> > and the filesize, though that's not infallable, since md5 sums aren't as unique
> > as they're touted
> 
> I don't know who's been touting md5 checksums as being the slightest
> bit unique, but they seriously need a reality check. md5 checksums
> are something like 1024 bits long 

Not even that. 128 bit long, that's all.

> (whatever - that's not really important). 

Indeed not, for your argument's sake.

> Now, unconventional languages, on the other hand... To be honest, I'm
> surprised that this guy was prepared to accept the one-line shell
> script
> gunzip $1
> as a valid decompressor. It's only a short step from there to
> creating a purpose-built 'language' a la HQ9+ ... <evil grin>

But 'gunzip $1' is 9 bytes long, so you'd need to reduce the random data
by 10 bytes = 80 bits, and there's at most 1/2^80 chances gunzip can do
that...

Frederic vdP



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 03:20:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: [meta (meta^n(k)) question-tennis]



On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Chuck the Parrot wrote:

> shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > What kind of questions would untrivialize it?
> Does meta^n(k) question-tennis show that meta^(n-1)(k) question-tennis
> exhibits Godel incompleteness?
> Or is that just me (for any given k)?

Isn't that a great example of why I invented this game?




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 03:13:16 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [meta^n(k) question-tennis]

Chuck the Parrot wrote:
> Does meta^n(k) question-tennis show that meta^(n-1)(k) question-tennis
> exhibits Godel incompleteness?

Chuck, didn't I ask you nicely to stay in your cage and stop imitating
me?!?

Bad parrot!  Bad!

_chris (the real one - the CLEARLY MAD one, remember?)

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 03:26:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [meta^n(k) question-tennis]



On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:

> Chuck' the Parrot wrote:
> > Does meta^n(k) question-tennis show that meta^(n-1)(k) question-tennis
> > exhibits Godel incompleteness?
> 
> Chuck, didn't I ask you nicely to stay in your cage and stop imitating
> me?!?
> 
Don't chastize him.  If you look carefully, it was actually Chuck', the
meta-parrot.




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:08:46 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [question tennis] continuation

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Cal Henderson wrote:
> : > Can I return your serve?
> : Would that be polite?
> can i join in?

Into what?

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > How about playing question tennis?
> > > Can I return your serve?
> > Would that be polite?
> Would that matter?

Do you care at all about everybody else's feelings?

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, John Colagioia wrote:
> > Would that matter?
> Does anybody else even understand how futile it is to play this across
> e-mail?

Who do you count in "anybody else"?

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > Does anybody else even understand how futile it is to play this across
> > e-mail?
>
> Rhetorical question!
> Whose serve is it?

How dare you pose two clauses at the same time?

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Steve Mosher wrote:
> > How about playing question tennis?
> 	Why should I?

Did I say you should?

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, John Colagioia wrote:
> > > Does anybody else even understand how futile it is to play this across
> > > e-mail?
> > Rhetorical question!
> How is that rhetorical?

Does using words like "rhetorical" make you feel smart?

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > Whose serve is it?
> > Do *you* want to serve?
> Do You Yahoo!?

Do You Write Everything With Caps?

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > Whose serve is it?
> > Do *you* want to serve?
> Would you rather serve me?

Will you guys ever get started?

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, John Colagioia wrote:
> Statement!  Hahahahaha!

Was that a statement?

> > > Do *you* want to serve?
> > Would you rather serve me?
> Do I have that option?

Does it make any difference?

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Do you expect me to start a separate thread to respond to your
> objections to my comments on the game?

What good is a separate thread going to do?




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:09:57 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [question tennis] Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay,

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:

> Isn't this an incredibly fun game?

As I promised, I'll tell you when you break the rules. Negative questions
are prohibited.

Wasn't that fun?

[no, I _don't_ want responses]

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:17:55 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeffry Johnston <jeffryj@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: [META_Epsilon question tennis]



On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 25 Apr 2001, at 1:03, Jeffry Johnston wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:40, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 2:28, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 25 Apr 2001, at 1:20, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Is meta question tennis a commentary or a playable game?
> > > > > > > > > Do you mean ((meta question)) tennis or (meta (question tennis))?
> > > > > > > > Doesn't that question belong here?
> > > > > > > Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
> > > > > > Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta meta question
> > > > > > tennis?
> > > > > What kind of questions would untrivialize it?
> > > > Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta meta question tennis
> > > > topic rather than a meta meta meta meta meta meta question tennis topic?
> > > Isn't this starting to look pretty?
> > What you say?
> Do you guys have too much time on your hands?
Where do you want to go today?



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:16:50 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [meta question tennis]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:

> Is this a valid question in question tennis?

[turning to referees] What do you think?





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:21:12 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [meta^7 question tennis]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:

> > > > > Doesn't that question belong here?
> > > > Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
> > > Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta meta question
> > > tennis?
> Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta meta question tennis
> topic rather than a meta meta meta meta meta meta question tennis topic?

I suppose now you can see why negative questions are disallowed?

Panu?



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:22:31 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [meta^n question tennis]



Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> 
> > Is this a valid question in question tennis?
> 
> [turning to referees] What do you think?

Who are the referees ?



------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:33:35 +0200
Subject: Re: [meta^7 question tennis]

On 25 Apr 2001, at 12:21, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> 
> > > > > > Doesn't that question belong here?
> > > > > Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
> > > > Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta meta question
> > > > tennis?
> > Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta meta question tennis
> > topic rather than a meta meta meta meta meta meta question tennis topic?
> 
> I suppose now you can see why negative questions are disallowed?
Do you mean "Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta 
meta question tennis topic rather than a meta meta meta meta 
meta meta question tennis topic?" is illegal; but "Is that a meta 
meta meta meta meta question tennis topic or a meta meta meta 
meta meta meta question tennis topic?" is legal?



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:30:17 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [meta^8 question tennis]



Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> 
> > > > > > Doesn't that question belong here?
> > > > > Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
> > > > Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta meta question
> > > > tennis?
> > Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta meta question tennis
> > topic rather than a meta meta meta meta meta meta question tennis topic?
> 
> I suppose now you can see why negative questions are disallowed?
> 
> Panu?

Will you believe me if I tell you that I understand why negative questions
are disallowed, and will you follow me if I say that this rule is
insufficient ?



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:36:40 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [meta^n question tennis]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> > > Is this a valid question in question tennis?
> > [turning to referees] What do you think?
> Who are the referees ?

Am I possibly one?



------------------------------

From: Rafal.Sulejman@extern.oppenheim.de
Subject: RE: [games] [virtual machines] Programming game
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:38:18 +0200

> So, in response to some comments made on the list, I'm 
> starting work on a "programming game."  The basic concept 
> is that you control an agent of some sort (probably a robot), 
> which can either compete or cooperate with others.  I don't 
> have much more than that worked out, other than that I'd 
> like to have the game be multiplayer over the Internet via 
> java applets.

Maybe you should read something on aglets before. Have no exact 
link, but its quite easy to find (Japanese site)...

It's in Java, it's agent oriented. Of course -- it wasn't intended to
be a gaming platform...;)

> For the actual programming part, I'm representing the robot 
> internals with a sort of virtual machine.  People could program directly
for 
> the VM, or use whatever languages they can find or build that compile to 
> it.  (The program would initially have all sorts of strange languages,
probably 
> including BF, Befunge, etc.)
You're absolutely right. It's much easier to implement such stuff and start
work on something
interesting (within the same project...)

> Style points would be awarded for small programs, programs written in 
> obscure languages, the most efficient completion of a task, etc.

It's game or it's competition??? Or -- who are players? We or VMs?

 > So, the design of the VM is one starting point, and I'd like 
> to toss ideas around the list on it.  It needs to be relatively 
> fast, with a small footprint, and yet be reasonably flexible.  

You really didn't have to say this... ;) Can I say "portable"??

> With my background, I'm of course thinking of something like the M68k 
> (several general-purpose registers, basic stack capability, etc.) 
> but something like the Java VM (almost entirely stack-oriented) 
> could also be a possibility.
I'm far from building Java an altar, but maybe Java (VM in VM?)...
Enough rope to hang... In either graphics or network stuff...

--rav


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:38:38 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [meta^7 question tennis]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > > > Doesn't that question belong here?
> > > > > > Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
> > > > > Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta meta question
> > > > > tennis?
> > > Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta meta question tennis
> > > topic rather than a meta meta meta meta meta meta question tennis topic?
> > I suppose now you can see why negative questions are disallowed?
> Do you mean "Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta
> meta question tennis topic rather than a meta meta meta meta
> meta meta question tennis topic?" is illegal; but "Is that a meta
> meta meta meta meta question tennis topic or a meta meta meta
> meta meta meta question tennis topic?" is legal?

Might it have something to  do with statements?
How would you answer to the latter one?




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 04:39:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [meta^8 question tennis]



On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, [iso-8859-1] Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote:

>=20
>=20
> Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> >=20
> > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> >=20
> > > > > > > Doesn't that question belong here?
> > > > > > Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
> > > > > Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta meta q=
uestion
> > > > > tennis?
> > > Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta meta question tennis
> > > topic rather than a meta meta meta meta meta meta question tennis top=
ic?
> >=20
> > I suppose now you can see why negative questions are disallowed?
> Will you believe me if I tell you that I understand why negative question=
s
> are disallowed, and will you follow me if I say that this rule is
> insufficient ?
Don't you realize that the rules for meta^n question tennis need not have
the same rules?





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:39:57 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [meta^n(k) question-tennis]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Chuck the Parrot wrote:
> Or is that just me (for any given k)?

Does any given k give a damn whether it is you or just you?





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:36:47 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [meta^n question tennis]

Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> > > > Is this a valid question in question tennis?
> > > [turning to referees] What do you think?
> > Who are the referees ?
> Am I possibly one?
But then why would you want to turn to the referees ?



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:44:14 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [meta^8 question tennis]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> > I suppose now you can see why negative questions are disallowed?
> Will you believe me if I tell you that I understand why negative questions
> are disallowed, and will you follow me if I say that this rule is
> insufficient ?

So what should the rules include? Why would anybody deny a question that
is easy to answer with a question? Do I need to believe you?

Panu?




------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:50:55 +0200
Subject: Re: [meta^7 question tennis]

On 25 Apr 2001, at 12:38, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > > > > > Doesn't that question belong here?
> > > > > > > Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
> > > > > > Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta meta question
> > > > > > tennis?
> > > > Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta meta question tennis
> > > > topic rather than a meta meta meta meta meta meta question tennis topic?
> > > I suppose now you can see why negative questions are disallowed?
> > Do you mean "Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta
> > meta question tennis topic rather than a meta meta meta meta
> > meta meta question tennis topic?" is illegal; but "Is that a meta
> > meta meta meta meta question tennis topic or a meta meta meta
> > meta meta meta question tennis topic?" is legal?
> Might it have something to  do with statements?
Would you agree that "rhetorical questions are disallowed" is a 
better rule than "Negative questions are disallowed"?

> How would you answer to the latter one?
Aren't you the guy who scolded me for posing two clauses at the 
same time?

Does the way that I'm avoiding doing that this time remind you of 
the old person from Lyme who married three wives at one time, and 
when asked "Why the third?" replied "One's absurd; and bigamy, 
Sir, is a crime!"?



_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 04:50:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: [On the meta question game]


Or meta(meta(meta^n)), or whatever (or possibly--cheating).  I just
thought I'd make some quick, non-interrogative comments.

First, sorry for the spam and the stress your killfile is undoubtably
going through.  I love waking up to 100+ catseye posts too.  But I did
have
a point or two.

It was hard to make your meta-posts really meta-posts, wasn't it?  Keeping
track of exactly what was a response to a question, rather than a question
_about_ the previous question is pretty hard, huh?  I even screwed up at
least once, and that was the _whole point of the game for me_.

And Chris was right.  The godel-incompleteness reference was
intentional.  It started to get pretty tough when we moved beyond
(meta^n).

Now, I just fear the demon I may have released...(no, not Jenny)
The Topic That Won't Die.



------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:55:06 +0200
Subject: Re: [meta^8 question tennis]

On 25 Apr 2001, at 4:39, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, [iso-8859-1] Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> > Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > > > > > > > Doesn't that question belong here?
> > > > > > > Won't that approach create unmanageably long Subject: lines?
> > > > > > Don't such questions trivialize the game of meta meta meta met=
a question
> > > > > > tennis?
> > > > Wouldn't you consider that a meta meta meta meta meta question ten=
nis
> > > > topic rather than a meta meta meta meta meta meta question tennis =
topic?
> > > 
> > > I suppose now you can see why negative questions are disallowed?
> > Will you believe me if I tell you that I understand why negative quest=
ions
> > are disallowed, and will you follow me if I say that this rule is
> > insufficient ?
> Don't you realize that the rules for meta^n question tennis need not hav=
e
> the same rules?
Are the meta-rules for meta^n question tennis the same as the 
rules for meta^n+1 question tennis?



_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:52:05 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [meta^8 question tennis]

Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> > > I suppose now you can see why negative questions are disallowed?
> > Will you believe me if I tell you that I understand why negative questions
> > are disallowed, and will you follow me if I say that this rule is
> > insufficient ?
> So what should the rules include? Why would anybody deny a question that
> is easy to answer with a question? Do I need to believe you?

Why should anyone need to believe me ? Why would I want to deny a question
that can be answered with a question ? Is is possible that my answer to
the last question had to do with the ease with which people are able to
disguise statements into questions ? And wouldn't the game bo too complex
if people had to bother not to make negative questions ? Isn't the last
question (and this one too, for that matter) a proof that that rule may
be too difficult for a lively question tennis game play ? So what do you
think I should believe eventually ? What does it says about the game of
question tennis ?

Fred??????? (who's this guy anyway ?)



------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:58:21 +0200
Subject: Re: [On the meta question game]

What I really want to know is what meta^4 question tennis is a 
metaphor for.

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:19:01 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [meta^n question tennis]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:

> Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> > > > > Is this a valid question in question tennis?
> > > > [turning to referees] What do you think?
> > > Who are the referees ?
> > Am I possibly one?
> But then why would you want to turn to the referees ?

Is turning to oneself so complex an operation that you can't see its
benefits?




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:23:56 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [meta^7 question tennis]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > Might it have something to  do with statements?
> Would you agree that "rhetorical questions are disallowed" is a
> better rule than "Negative questions are disallowed"?

How do you enforce it as a rule?
Is it really about allowing rather than style points?

> > How would you answer to the latter one?
> Aren't you the guy who scolded me for posing two clauses at the
> same time?

How do you know?

> Does the way that I'm avoiding doing that this time remind you of
> the old person from Lyme who married three wives at one time, and
> when asked "Why the third?" replied "One's absurd; and bigamy,
> Sir, is a crime!"?

It does. <whoopsie>

> Do You Yahoo!?

Can you guess whether posing a question twice is allowed?

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:32:13 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [meta^8 question tennis]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> Why should anyone need to believe me ? Why would I want to deny a question

Is there any other difference between a rule and style than that rules are
absolute whereas style is a matter of taste? How would you rate a guy that
disguises statements as questions all the time? Is there only a finite
number of ways to do so - if not, what would you propose as a rule?

> that can be answered with a question ? Is is possible that my answer to
> the last question had to do with the ease with which people are able to
> disguise statements into questions ? And wouldn't the game bo too complex
> if people had to bother not to make negative questions ? Isn't the last

Is it ease that you're after? Do you think I am? Or is it rules that I am
against for some other reason?

> Fred??????? (who's this guy anyway ?)

Over where?



------------------------------

From: shafalus@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:08:50 +0200
Subject: Re: [meta^7 question tennis]

On 25 Apr 2001, at 13:23, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > Might it have something to  do with statements?
> > Would you agree that "rhetorical questions are disallowed" is a
> > better rule than "Negative questions are disallowed"?
> How do you enforce it as a rule?
> Is it really about allowing rather than style points?

Does your second question answer your first?

> > > How would you answer to the latter one?
> > Aren't you the guy who scolded me for posing two clauses at the
> > same time?
> How do you know?

Is this a deep epistemological question or a weak evasion?
 
> > Does the way that I'm avoiding doing that this time remind you of
> > the old person from Lyme who married three wives at one time, and
> > when asked "Why the third?" replied "One's absurd; and bigamy,
> > Sir, is a crime!"?
> 
> It does. <whoopsie>
> 
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> 
> Can you guess whether posing a question twice is allowed?

Do you need to ask?

--
Simon Montagu
email: simon@softel.co.il

_________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

From: "Matthew Westcott" <matthew.westcott@oriel.oxford.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:02:26 +0100
Subject: Re: [Compression Trick on Slashdot]

On 25 Apr 2001, at 10:17, Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote:

> Matthew Westcott wrote:

> > Now, unconventional languages, on the other hand... To be honest, I'm
> > surprised that this guy was prepared to accept the one-line shell
> > script
> > gunzip $1
> > as a valid decompressor. It's only a short step from there to
> > creating a purpose-built 'language' a la HQ9+ ... <evil grin>
> 
> But 'gunzip $1' is 9 bytes long, so you'd need to reduce the random data
> by 10 bytes =3D 80 bits, and there's at most 1/2^80 chances gunzip can d=
o
> that...

OK, how about this for a solution to the problem:
The 'gunzip $1' idea assumes we're using a Unix system on which the 
program gunzip has been installed. Since gunzip is just an arbitrary 
program, I think it's equally reasonable to ask that the program 
'ReplaceAllOccurencesOfTheCharacterQWithTheThreeMegabyteFileIWasOrigin
allyGiven' is installed on the system too. Note that I don't have to 
supply this program as part of my proposed solution - just a one-line 
shell script that calls it, along with a data file consisting of a 
single character Q.

I think this is an extreme example of what Steve was saying, about 
taking the environment into account. Of course, my solution would be 
absolutely no use for compressing anything other than the file I was 
given. If you had an infinitely large hard drive, you could extend 
your system to include a 'decompressor' for each possible 3Mb file. 
Unfortunately, you'd need to use 3Mb-long filenames to distinguish 
them all...

Yes, I know that's a particularly silly way to make use of your 
environment, but I believe any method would suffer from the same 
problem; generally (and informally), once you extended your 
environment sufficiently to compress any possible file, the 
environment would be so large that you'd need just as much data in 
your compressed files in order to specify the part of the environment 
you want to use.


Matthew Westcott


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:36:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> Duck!  Here comes the Snow Train!

I was going to play along for a while longer, but you're about as
weird as the coat rack staring me in the face.  And about as subtle as 
a fourteen year old boy with social deficiencies.

If you'd like to post to insult me without cause, and personally attack
every post I make, send me personal e-mail, and stop cluttering the
list.  Unless, of course, it's been turned into the "look how much
smarter Chris Pressey is than everyone else list," and I missed the
memo.  I doubt it, however.

I apologize to all that I've participated in this inane clutter.  I'll
try to act vaguely like an adult now, and ignore the obligitory thirty
page "flame" from Chris about how stupid and obvious my comments are
that'll be coming through, this afternoon.

[...]



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:42:27 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] [type systems] The universal type


An idea occurred to me a couple of hours ago. If we think about a type as
a set of possible values, we usually build combined types (forgetting
intensional, ie behaviour-oriented types altogether) by union (sums of two
or more types, "alternatives") or cartesian product (product of two or
more types, "factors").

How Chris presented this idea was, routines should place "extensional"
constraints on the types they get, such as requiring the type to have a
dimension of "heat", for example. However, I don't see this as very
consistent, because the values that are used to express the value in one
dimension should be specified the same way. Thus we end up having to have
a more or less arbitrary set of basic types, which are non-dimensional (or
uni-dimensional) and provide the dimension in their own type.

However, I happened to think about doing it the other way around, by
equivalence sets/classes. In set theory, new types are often declared from
an old type by defining an equivalence relation that declares values
equivalent in "unimportant" aspects, and treating the equivalence classes
as separate values of the new type. Example: the set of natural numbers
can be declared to be the set of sets of sets that have exactly N members,
irrespectible of what the members are.

Now, these types, too, are descended from other types, but not from simple
to complex, but the other way around. What makes this really beautiful is
that we can define a type of "everything" and then divide it into
equivalence classes that it has "significant" values in. The factors which
have not been specified still have the "anything" value (unique value of
type "everything").

Thus, type constraints become specifications of what has significance.
Tral-lal-la.

Panu

Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh
atehwa@iki.fi






------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:33:01 -0300


	5,000,000 Zorkmids and a Burke of Balls to John, for making an
excellent sink of the whole damned thread!


On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, John Colagioia wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> > Duck!  Here comes the Snow Train!
> 
> I was going to play along for a while longer, but you're about as
> weird as the coat rack staring me in the face.  And about as subtle as 
> a fourteen year old boy with social deficiencies.
> 
> If you'd like to post to insult me without cause, and personally attack
> every post I make, send me personal e-mail, and stop cluttering the
> list.  Unless, of course, it's been turned into the "look how much
> smarter Chris Pressey is than everyone else list," and I missed the
> memo.  I doubt it, however.
> 
> I apologize to all that I've participated in this inane clutter.  I'll
> try to act vaguely like an adult now, and ignore the obligitory thirty
> page "flame" from Chris about how stupid and obvious my comments are
> that'll be coming through, this afternoon.
> 
> [...]
-- 
Steve

God's not necessary... just dramatic.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:47:12 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Dumbf*ck


>LOL! Can I use that quote on my webpage?

Absolutely. :-)
Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:49:43 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: 10 Million Email Addresses, Stealth Mass Mailer &


>My silver bullet is to eliminate messages that don't have my address in
>a To: or Cc: field. Provided they come from frederic.vdplancke@writeme.com
>(which is my main source of spam) and they don't come from a list I
>subscribed to (other filters take care of that):
>99% success. (Don't tell the spammers, please !)

I have an identical filter, though it's somewhat more complex as I use 
three e-mail addresses with equal frequency.  However, the spammers have 
started figuring this one out, in my case, and I get around 10% of my spam 
targeted at my address.
With the way the messages are going, I'm tempted just to look for a line 
containing "This message complies with 
-whatever-useless-act-the-legislature-created-that-clearly-isn't-helping". :-)

>I also keep the spam for the time I'll take counter-measures... (Perhaps
>I better eliminate spam altogether.)

I have a large mailbox full of it.  Every so often I make a pass over it 
with a header-analysis program, which is how I found the X-Mailer trend.
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:53:22 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: RE: [games] [virtual machines] Programming game


> > Style points would be awarded for small programs, programs written in
> > obscure languages, the most efficient completion of a task, etc.
>It's game or it's competition??? Or -- who are players? We or VMs?

The way I'm looking at it now, it's similar to some robotics "tasks" I've 
played with.  The players are broken up into teams.  They must cooperate 
within the team, and compete between them.  The "players" are the humans 
who create the bot code, but have no control over the bots than that once 
they're released into the wild.

>I'm far from building Java an altar, but maybe Java (VM in VM?)...
>Enough rope to hang... In either graphics or network stuff...

I'm almost tempted to go with the Java VM, because I have enough experience 
sandboxing applications to keep them from eating a system, but it's not 
quite the small footprint I was after.  Maybe one of the shrunken varieties.
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:02:13 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: [Brainf*ck] rot13

rot13
probably done before (confirm or deny) but I haven't seen it

,
[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
[>++++++++++++++<-
[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
[>>+++++[<----->-]<<-
[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
[>++++++++++++++<-
[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
[>++++++++++++++<-
[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
[>>+++++[<----->-]<<-
[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
[>++++++++++++++<-
[>+<-]
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
]]
>.[-]<,]

of course any function char f(char) can be made easily on
the same principle


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:15:55 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [On the meta question game]

shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> What I really want to know is what meta^4 question tennis is a
> metaphor for.

1,000 Zorkmids and a Bear Flower Petal to shaf!

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:18:04 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [meta^7 question tennis]

shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 25 Apr 2001, at 13:23, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 shafalus@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > > Might it have something to  do with statements?
> > > Would you agree that "rhetorical questions are disallowed" is a
> > > better rule than "Negative questions are disallowed"?
> > How do you enforce it as a rule?
> > Is it really about allowing rather than style points?
> Does your second question answer your first?

Is this a great game, or what?

Was that a negative question?

Is it still a question if the question mark is missing.

Are these four seperate questions, or merely a four-part question?

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:20:51 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sink] update (was Re: [list-meta] okay, all systems up.)

Aw.  I think I hurt John's feelings...

John Colagioia wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> I'll try to act vaguely like an adult now [...]

As would be totally apropos for *this* list!  *smirk*

Thanks for being my cat toy.

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

From: Rafal.Sulejman@extern.oppenheim.de
Subject: RE: [games] [virtual machines] Programming game
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:41:14 +0200

> > who are players? We or VMs?
> 
> The way I'm looking at it now, it's similar to some robotics 
> "tasks" I've played with.  The players are broken up into teams.  
> They must cooperate within the team, and compete between them.  

You're going to automate coding-style scoring??? How? Counting brackets?
Comparing widths'n'heights? It isn't *grin*ed... I'm just curious.

> The "players" are the humans who create the bot code, but have 
> no control over the bots than that once they're released into
> the wild.

1) Reinventing the "CoreWars"? CBots? 
2) Where's "the wild"? On one server? Distributed? "Fighting agents" (OTOH -
cute name,heh?)?

> 
> I'm almost tempted to go with the Java VM, because I have 
> enough experience sandboxing applications to keep them from 
> eating a system, but it's not quite the small footprint 
> I was after.  Maybe one of the shrunken varieties.

Yeah, definitely its quite big-footprint (HP Yeti ;)
But OTOH on (almost) every contemporary (more or less) computer there's at
least a
Java enabled browser...

... or you will end with Windoze|Linux|BeOS|somethin' specific stuff...

[Maybe not too constructive, but always an answer ;)]
-----
Rav



------------------------------

From: Rafal.Sulejman@extern.oppenheim.de
Subject: [off topic][seeds]Solar system simulation (descr.)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:43:17 +0200


http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/spacetravel.html

-----
Rav


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:36:08 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [lang] Re: [type systems] The universal type

Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> How Chris presented this idea was, routines should place "extensional"
> constraints on the types they get, such as requiring the type to have a
> dimension of "heat", for example. [...]
> However, I happened to think about doing it the other way around, by
> equivalence sets/classes.

If I understand you here, you're talking about deriving the required
type at any given point by "whittling down" a "universal" type until
it's only as big as it needs to be (as opposed to my original idea
[which admittedly never worked very well] which was more like "growing"
aggregates of "primitive" types until they're as big as they need to
be.)

And if I do understand it, then yes, I like your idea better.  It's
deductive, rather than accumulative.  Less messy that way.

> In set theory, new types are often declared from
> an old type by defining an equivalence relation that declares values
> equivalent in "unimportant" aspects, and treating the equivalence classes
> as separate values of the new type. Example: the set of natural numbers
> can be declared to be the set of sets of sets that have exactly N members,
> irrespectible of what the members are.

Ah - something like church integers?  You have a set of N whatevers to
represent N, and the whatevers themselves are unimportant?

> Now, these types, too, are descended from other types, but not from simple
> to complex, but the other way around. What makes this really beautiful is
> that we can define a type of "everything" and then divide it into
> equivalence classes that it has "significant" values in. The factors which
> have not been specified still have the "anything" value (unique value of
> type "everything").

:-)  I'm not sure if I'd prefer that, or to simply disallow variables to
be of type "everything" by the time type analysis has finished. 
"Everything" is a very useful abstraction, but it doesn't come in very
useful in the course of many actual programs - at least not ones I've
written, but if someone else would care to provide an example, I'd be
interested to know of it's value...?

> Thus, type constraints become specifications of what has significance.

Sounds good to me!

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:12:32 +0200 (CEST)
From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl)
Subject: [lang] Re: [Brainf*ck] rot13


On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Daniel. wrote:

> rot13
> probably done before (confirm or deny) but I haven't seen it
> 
> ,
> [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
> [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
> [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
> [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
> [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
> [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
> [>++++++++++++++<-
> [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
> [>>+++++[<----->-]<<-
> [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
> [>++++++++++++++<-
> [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
> [>++++++++++++++<-
> [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
> [>>+++++[<----->-]<<-
> [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
> [>++++++++++++++<-
> [>+<-]
> ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
> ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
> ]]
> >.[-]<,]
> 
> of course any function char f(char) can be made easily on
> the same principle
> 

It looks like it's been done before at the ROT-13 page
http://ucsub.colorado.edu/~kominek/rot13/

You might want to take a look at that one as well.

Markus Kliegl





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:25:02 -0700
From: Brian Raiter <breadbox@muppetlabs.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: [Brainf*ck] rot13

> It looks like it's been done before at the ROT-13 page
> http://ucsub.colorado.edu/~kominek/rot13/

Wow. I've never seen that page before.

Cliff: sounds like HQ9+ is in need of a successor!

b




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:51:11 +0200 (CEST)
From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl)
Subject: [lang] Re: [Brainf*ck] rot13


On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Brian Raiter wrote:

> > It looks like it's been done before at the ROT-13 page
> > http://ucsub.colorado.edu/~kominek/rot13/
> 
> Wow. I've never seen that page before.
> 
> Cliff: sounds like HQ9+ is in need of a successor!
> 
> b

Hehe, incidentally I was thinking the exactly same thing as
I came across the page, so it's already done... see my Ocaml
implementation of HQ9+ on Cliff's page.

Markus Kliegl





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:43:01 +0300
From: "J. A. =?iso-8859-1?Q?N=E4kk=E4l=E4j=E4rvi?=" <kaatunut@saunalahti.fi>
Subject: [number-o-mania]Tricky  thing... -- partial solution

Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:

> > >> 142857 is a cyclic number, the numbers of which always appear in the
> > >> same order but rotated around when multipled by any number from 1 to 6.
> > >>
> > >> 142857 * 2 = 285714
> > >> 142857 * 3 = 428571
> > >> 142857 * 4 = 571428
> > >> 142857 * 5 = 714285
> > >> 142857 * 6 = 857142
> > >>
> > >> So can you find any more numbers like this? Is there a simple algorithm
> > >> for finding them or is this another good application for parallel
> > >> machines?
> >
> > The reason this number has such magical properties is because it is the
> > number (1/7) * 100_000.  The fraction 1/7 has a repeating series of digits
> > "142857".  And, when you multiply this fraction by 2, 3, 4, ..., the
> > digits appear in a shuffled order; thus, 142857 is just an employment of
> > 1/7's magic.
>
> But this does not explain _why_ it happens.
> E.g. why does it work with 1/7 and not with 1/3, 1/11, 1/13... ?
>
> To make the question more general:
> Find all integers a, n with 1 < a < n such that the digits of the
> fraction a/n are a rotation of the digits of the fraction 1/n.
>
> Examples:
> (a,n) = (2,7), (3,7), ... , (6,7); (10,11); (3,13), (4,13), (9,13), ...
>
> I don't know how difficult is this question.
> When you've solved it in base 10 you can try it in arbitrary base D.

Sure!

First I had to narrow down the problem a bit to make it manageable. Now that I
know more, I suppose I could give it a wider shot, but I'm tired and
underequipped, anyways.

Task: find number-pairs D,n where for n applies:

for every m in [1,n[, the period in numeric representation of m/n in base D is
the period of 1/n with sufficient rotating shift.

For example:

1/7 = 0.142857...
2/7 = 0.  285714...
3/7 = 0. 428571...

And so on. So, obviously, one such (D,n) is (10,7). And now on the findings:

Any 1/n whose numeric representation's period is n-1 digits in length is
rotating. I also know that if there's no trailing sequence, that is, the period
starts right after decimal (D'mal) point, then the complete rotation (all m/n)
is only possible if the period is n-1 digits.

And you can find rotating (D,n):s like this:

For some (D,n), find smallest p for which it is true that:

(D^p-1) % n = 0

[% is integer modulo, like in C]

In other words, that (D^p-1) is divisible with n. Now, if
p=n-1
then (D,n) is the rotating pair that we were looking for.

That much I could prove so far. On the hunches department: All n, regardless of
D, that I could find, are primes.

If it's true that (D^(n-1)-1) % n = 0 but n-1 is not the smallest power that
executes that, then it's not completely rotating but it seems it /might/ be
still rotating for some parts.

Other way to find these numbers, likely more CPU-intensive (isn't there a
builtin modulo instruction in x86 cpus or something?) but can handle much
larger numbers:

f(0)=1
f(x)=(D*f(x-1)) % n

If the first value of f after x=0 is at n-1, then (D,n) is rotating.

--

If my ranting is too confusing, I've attached a code to find for such pairs.
Thank you for your disinterest, if someone would care for a proof, ask. It's
amateurish and I've forgotten half of it, I'll probably forget the other half
by tomorrow.

 -Kaatunut


-- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar --
-- File: Dn.c

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>

int main(int argc,char* argv[]) {
	char buff[400];
	int Dm,DM,nm,nM;
	int D,n;
	
	printf("D search range start? ");
	fgets(buff,400,stdin);
	Dm=strtol(buff,NULL,0);
	printf("D end (-1 for endless)? ");
	fgets(buff,400,stdin);
	DM=strtol(buff,NULL,0);
	
	printf("n start? ");
	fgets(buff,400,stdin);
	nm=strtol(buff,NULL,0);
	printf("n end (-1 for endless)? ");
	fgets(buff,400,stdin);
	nM=strtol(buff,NULL,0);
	
	for (D=Dm;DM==-1 || D<=DM;++D)
		for (n=nm;nM==-1 || n<nM;++n) {
			int q=1,p;
			for (p=1;p<=n && (q!=1 || p==1);++p)
				q=(D*q)%n;
			if (p==n)
				printf("(%d,%d)\n",D,n);
		}
}



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:12:11 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <keith@digital-crew.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: [Not Esoteric] [Scripting Language] Eloi

24/04/2001 16:52:38, Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI> wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Keith Gaughan wrote:
>
>> Icon SaveWindow[0]:
>>     # When the icon is dragged, this event is triggered.
>>     OnDrag:
>>         Set Event.Filename = SaveWindow.Filename
>
> Do I get my head bashed if I say this looks somewhat like Python? Of course, it
> might make a good language.

Not at all! The syntax was purposely based on Python -- I find it to be one of the 
most readable languages I've ever used.

I've made some changes lately and I'm producing a spec and I'll set about designing 
some libraries soon (the language now supports them -- how did I manage to forget 
that!)

More info soon. Cheers, I'd actually been expecting nobody to reply!

K.





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:47:51 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [Poetry] more poetry!

If you want a "multimedia experience," here's some groovy audio (not
mine) to accompany this poem.  The words are not exactly lyrics for it,
but it's kind of close... if you like toastin', that is :-)

http://members.xoom.fr/musique2jeux/musiques/saturn/Take_the_Snow_Train.mid

_Question Pinball_ by Chris Pressey

    Is the quality of mercy strained?
    Have we been overtrained?
    _Who_ can be blamed?
    And where do cattle get deranged?

    Is there more than one of me?
    Do you see?
    _Need_ you be?
    Taking pictures of _more_ than three?

    How?
    Why?
    Where?
    Who?

    Is it?
    Was it?
    Has it?
    Will it be?

    Should we perhaps all just relax?
    Get our trains off of our tracks?
    Try instead a parallax?
    Or just keep grindin' away on that axe?

    Is there any more to see?
    Have you been you and me been me?
    Or is that mere tautology?
    Hey, can't _you_ hear the symphony?

    Did the world _end_ last month?
    Did it go _down_ in flames of orange?
    Did it _spark_ an aura of purple?
    Or did it shine instead in slivers of _silver_?

    Shall we run with Occam's Scissors now?

    Didn't we all just get bonus points?
    Plenty universal joints?
    Pretty Zorkmid coins?
    A grease that annoints?

    Is it all just one-way fate?
    A diode of technology late?
    A valve in, say, Watergate?
    How _does_ it interrelate?

    Will the world _end_ next month?
    Will it go down in sparks of _orange_?
    Will it glow an ungodly _purple_?
    Or _explode_ instead in slivers of silver?

    Hmm... did Eye just put someone's _I_ out?

    Aren't hotsprings cool anymore?
    Why are _they_ such a chore?
    Where is my night's platonic shore?
    Did I jettison that old bore?

    Is there something more to see?
    Can I be you and you be me?
    Or is that mere etymology?
    Or _can_ we smell the greenery?

    Is the world _ending_ this month?
    Is it _blowing up_ in streaks of orange?
    Is it _burning_ the shiniest purple?
    Or is it dancing slivers of _silver_?

    Or is that just _me_?

    What _have_ you got to lose?
    Your semi-precious shoes?
    Your... comfy maudlin blues?
    Your... quasi-solid truths?

    Your... bullish attitude?
    Your... many quandries crude?
    Your... mighty altitude?
    Perhaps your very access to food?

    Is there more to life than this?
    Is a rose by another name a kiss?
    Is the star upon the wish?
    Does it keep on going 'til it gets the gist?

    Is _my_ reality yours as well?
    Or do you live in your _own_ hell?
    Would you not prefer to dwell?
    In a purgatory we can _all_ smell?

    What?
    When?
    Wherefore?
    How much, now?

    Is it so?
    Was it, then?
    Has it _still_?
    Will it be _soon_?

    Does this deserve another tweak?
    Another hole out which to leak?
    Another appeal to edgy freak?
    Another twist, or so to speak?

    Can you find another reason?
    Can't you see your ego wheezin'?
    Is logic now out of season?
    Are you afraid it'll _all_ start freezin'?

    What did _you_ do this month?
    Did _you_ observe all the orange?
    Did _you_ drink the hues of purple?
    _Were_ you hurt by the slivers of silver?

    Hey, do _I_ look worried to you?

    Isn't it the greatest thing?
    To know you're born free to Sing?
    To Groove along on your own Ring?
    To carry through 'til you hear a Ping?

    Don't we each rewrite our own story?
    Do we fear potential glory?
    Reflexively cling to oratory?
    To keep on saying how we're _so sorry_?

    Huh?
    WTF?
    Guh-h?
    Yeah, so?

    Isn't it _now_?
    Wasn't it _last time_?
    Hasn't it _already_?
    Won't it be _eventually_?

    Is there more here than meets the I?
    Is there space beyond the sky?
    Is there truth beyond the lie?
    Are there crossroads beyond the try?

    Is there a star beyond the cross?
    Will we find honey beyond the loss?
    How many numbers _can_ we toss?
    Before we inquire as to the cost?

    Didn't we just have the most _fantastic_ month?
    Didn't we eat every _single_ orange?
    Didn't we bathe in _all_ the purple?
    Didn't we _survive_ the slivers of silver?
    (Why not ask your self?  Is it real or is it memorex?)

    What _have_ you got to lose?
    Can't you see that you can _choose_?
    Can't you contact your _own_ muse?
    Or at least... just take off your _shoes_?

    I mean... haven't you ever played with a _yo-yo_ before?

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

From: "shafalus" <shafalus@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [On the meta question game]
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 01:51:01 +0200

> 1,000 Zorkmids and a Bear Flower Petal to shaf!
>
> _chris

Thanks Chris. Now I have a burke of Zorkmids. A burke of burkes more, and
I'll have a burke.

Am I the first Zorkmid whore?

Shaf


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:13:33 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [On the meta question game]

<<Chris bats hands in front of face>>  "Shoo!  Shoo!  I'm trying to
type, here!"  :-)

shafalus wrote:
> > 1,000 Zorkmids and a Bear Flower Petal to shaf!
> > _chris
> Thanks Chris.

Hey, I just have a soft spot for the number 4, is all!  :-)

> Now I have a burke of Zorkmids. A burke of burkes more, and
> I'll have a burke.

btw, that Burke guy must have been a genius.  Must smarter than that
Finagle guy (Finagle's Fudge Factor - the number you need to add to your
findings to make them support your research.)  Finagle strikes me as
more of the quatloo-throwing type...

> Am I the first Zorkmid whore?

Besides me?  Wait, I probably wasn't the first - arguably Dornbrook,
Blanc, Lebling et al were the first - although maybe not as they *did*
turn it into a real-world commercial enterprise for a short while.

Anyway you are probably the first Zorkmid whore to publicly announce it
explicitly... almost certainly the first Basque-speaking Zorkmid
whore... :-)

Steve beat us both to being the first Ball whore (that I know of,)
though.

Anyway, yeah... very perceptive... all you need is a handful of Zorkmids
to buy a Burke Industries 2001i Hot and Cold Running Zorkmid Tap (or
equivalent contraption) and before you know it, you'll have far more
Zorkmids than you know what to do with!

I don't really understand it, myself... but that's just how faery
economy *works*.  A *lot* like Open Source software, actually!

Of course, it has to be genuine.  Anyone can *claim* they've got a Burke
Industries 2001i Hot and Cold Running Zorkmid Tap.  You've got to
*buy* it to actually get the Zorkmids.  Obviously.

This topic deserves some further clarification, I think.  Zorkmids
aren't just *imaginary*.  They're actually *surreal*.  They're a lot
like confidence.  If you're worried about how many you have, then you
obviously don't have enough.

Jenny tells me she's thought through the quatloos thing a bit more.  She
wants to open up the quatloo trade, but first we have to un-sink
At1antis.  See, the important thing is how they're used, right? 
Quatloos are used farcically - they're thrown at other people in
disapproval.  But that doesn't make them *intrinsically* weapons.  You
*could* throw pennies at people.  (Well, you *could*...)

And she sees a tremendous trading opportunity here, sort of.  Quatloos,
like anything else, have *some* value, however small.  Of course,
they're *quite* a bit less surreal than Zorkmids, so there's probably
going to be an exchange rate of several thousand quatloos to a Zorkmid. 
Probably lots of tariffs, too.  Barely worth it, but, y'know.  There's
certainly enough of them out there... some faery or other will figure
out how to corner the market on them eventually, I'm sure.

The important thing is of course, how you use them.  People just do not
buy things with quatloos.  In fact that's just about the opposite of
what they do.  They use quatloos to signify that they will not buy
something.  But once that innate memetic conflict is overcome, I'm sure
something can be worked out.

Not anytime soon, though.  The Faery Kingdom has it's own socio-economic
problems...

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:30:49 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: [SETI Puzzle] gif of graphs from messages 3 and 4.

Okay, I thought I'd put together a gif of all the alien hex graphs so 
far, for everyone's convenience. It's attached to this email. This is 
starting each loop at the right and going clockwise, and going from 
the inside out. Hope I didn't make any mistakes.
-Daniel.

-- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar --
-- Type: image/gif
-- File: aliengraphs.gif



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 00:44:04 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [Esoteric] polite request from "below the planck length"

You know what would make Jenny really happy?

(Not that it's your job to make Jenny happy... not at all.  It's not
even my job.  She'll get her own jollies her own way anyway.  I mean,
she's a friggin' *faery*... yeah I mean it's not even original, I know,
that's the sad part.  I mean, she *DOES* look kinda like Tinkerbell.  It
freaks me out.  Small, delicate, butterfly-ish wings, y'know?  Now - if
she's merely a figment of my imagination, *why* does she so often appear
in such an exceedingly culturally-orthodox fashion?  I'm *pretty* sure I
have a fertile imagination - I mean, I wrote Befunge, that has to count
for something?  And I know that was mine, and not Jenny's - I mean maybe
she inspired it in some way, probably yes, but I refined it into what it
turned out to be, which she bought back from me in '96... faeries are,
like, *boring*, why doesn't she appear to me as a giant glowing mallard
duck, or at least something *amusing*? ... <<shakes head>>  no, I don't
understand this CLEARLY MAD stuff at all.  Just enough to be marginally
but all-too *acutely* aware of it, I'd like to think...)

Anyway, you know what would make Jenny *really* happy?  Something she's
willing to pay plenty of Balls for?  Something that might actually shut
her up for a while?

I'll ask her.

Oh, GREAT.  Now she's resorted to playing CHARADES with me...

Three words.
First word.  Cow.  No.  Sounds like cow.  No?  Oh - sound a cow
*makes*.  Moo.  Moo!  Sounds like Moo?  Longer than Moo?  Moo plus...?

Person.  Military.  Militant person?  Soldier?  What?  Spinning soldier
- what???

Uh...

Ohhh!!  *Revolutionary* soldier!

What?  What, here?  Where I am?  Bigger?  My apartment?  Bigger? 
Winnipeg?  Bigger?  Manitoba?

Revolutionary from Manitoba?!?

Uh.... wait, I know this....

RIEL!  Louis Riel.  (Reminds me.  They used to have a twisted statue of
him outside the legislature on the north bank of the Assinniboine River. 
I liked it.  It was disturbing-but-bold art, to show him all naked and
twisted like that.  Then the government decided to build a circular
*wall* around it (with two door-sized gaps) so people wouldn't have to
be disturbed.  (Because, y'know, people can't choose to avert their
*own* eyes now can they?)  But this circular area turned into a
gathering place for the "undesirable element" which hang out around the
river late at night - mostly disenfranchised first nations youth. 
Vandalizing and loitering and I don't blame them a bit.  So the
government decided the wall *had to go*.  So consequently the statue
*had to go too*.  So at great cost they removed both.  And replaced it
with a new statue of a "dignified" Riel; upright, clothed.  Also at
great cost.  Now presumably no one feels disturbed when they look at the
statue Riel.  Except, I do.  Why?  Because both statues were comissioned
from the *SAME SCULPTOR*.  That statue reminds me of the monumentous
selling-out on his part and the monumentous aesthetic braindeadedness of
the government, and it disturbs me *far more* than the original statue. 
Of course, I'm in the minority, but I do tend to rant.)

OK, Jenny.  Sorry about that.  Continue.

Next word.  

Changing a Lightbulb.  No.  Um... taking something down... picking
something... fruit?  Fruit.  Picking fruit.  Dropping fruit.  Picking
fruit and dropping it.  Clumsy food gathering?  No.  Writing something
on the fruit.  Then dropping it.

... oh!  Discordia!

No?  Sounds like Discordia?  No.  Pointing to your hand.  No.  Fruit in
your hand.  Oh!  APPLE!

Yes, OK.  Apple, but not apple.  Something to do with apple.  ...  Eat
apple?  Hold up apple after eating it?  Um... finished apple?  Apple
core?  Yes?  Apple core?  No?  Half an apple core?  No?  Drop... oh. 
CORE!

Yes.  OK.  Core.

Last word?  One syllable?  Sounds like... horns?  Goat?  No.  Antlers? 
No.  Horns, but horns go off.  Off the head.  Horns on a hat?  Um -
horned helmet?  Viking?  Yes?  More general?  Um... Icelandic?  Um...
Nordic?  Close to Nordic?  Norwegian?  Norse?  NORSE!

Sounds like NORSE!

Horse?  Force?  Um.. Morse?  Source?  Um...

I'm stumped.  What else sounds like Norse?

Another hint?  OK.  Three words.  Good and evil.  No.  Karate chop. 
No.  Oh - one half of Good and Evil.  Good?  No.  Evil - I assume - yes,
OK.  Evil.  Swishy-hands evil.  No.  Something happening to evil.  Yes. 
Evil... getting bigger.  Yes.  Evil getting bigger.

Uh...

I don't get it.  I can't think of any word that sounds like "Norse" and
means "evil getting bigger."

Uh...

Unless you mean - "worse" - but that doesn't sound like Norse, that's
*spelled* like Norse.

No?

You mean - "WORCE"?

YES!?!

OK then!  The whole thing comes out to:

  MOO-RIEL CORE WORCE

...I wonder what it means?

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 01:09:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Esoteric] polite request from "below the planck length"

Spoiler ahead

















On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:

>   MOO-RIEL CORE WORCE.
> 
I'll play.  I'd love a mural of central Worcester.  Pretty town so I hear.




------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 01:14:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [SETI Puzzle] gif of graphs from messages 3 and 4.



On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Daniel. wrote:

> It's attached to this email.
> 
No it's not:

> -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar --
> -- Type: image/gif
> -- File: aliengraphs.gif



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 02:26:22 -0500
From: sweethotsherry@yahoo.com
Subject: ADULTS ONLY - HOT COLLEGE GIRLS

-- Unable to decode HTML file!! --


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 00:15:45 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: [SETI Puzzle] gif of graphs from messages 3 and 4.

>  > It's attached to this email.
>>
>No it's not:

Wonderful. Well, I've got it up on the web now:
http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~cristofd/ag.gif
If there are any more problems, let me know.
-Daniel.


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:00:25 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [games] [virtual machines] Programming game

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:

> I'm almost tempted to go with the Java VM, because I have enough experience
> sandboxing applications to keep them from eating a system, but it's not
> quite the small footprint I was after.  Maybe one of the shrunken varieties.

I think what really matters is _how_ the programs interact. Once you have
that thought out well, you could probably put many different virtual
machines into the game, for the robots to operate in.

You must be aware of KoTH? http://www.koth.org/

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:57:38 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [number-o-mania]Tricky  thing... -- partial solution



"J. A. Näkkäläjärvi" wrote:
> If my ranting is too confusing, I've attached a code to find for such pairs.
> Thank you for your disinterest, if someone would care for a proof, ask. It's
> amateurish and I've forgotten half of it, I'll probably forget the other half
> by tomorrow.
> 
>  -Kaatunut

Then you should note it down as soon as possible. (On a paper sheet, that's
easier than on a computer desk.)

In the meanwhile I'll have a look at your findings...

Frederic vdP



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:03:50 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: [SETI] avoid spoilers in title (was Re: [SETI Puzzle] gif of graphs 


Please avoid to include any spoiler in message titles, if possible,
thanks !

I haven't progressed much in the puzzles (mainly because I've had other
things to do and to think about) and I'm only at the middle of message
#2 so...

(Now I don't know ohow much of a spoiler the "graph" word is.)

Frederic vdP



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:18:47 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: [type systems] The universal type

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:

> If I understand you here, you're talking about deriving the required
> type at any given point by "whittling down" a "universal" type until
> it's only as big as it needs to be (as opposed to my original idea
> [which admittedly never worked very well] which was more like "growing"
> aggregates of "primitive" types until they're as big as they need to
> be.)

Exactly. Note that I never before took part in your discussion about these
"extensional" (structure-oriented) types, only talking about "intensional"
(behaviour-oriented) types. But I had this idea, so I'm going to stick my
nose here, too. :)

> > as separate values of the new type. Example: the set of natural numbers
> > can be declared to be the set of sets of sets that have exactly N members,
> > irrespectible of what the members are.
>
> Ah - something like church integers?  You have a set of N whatevers to
> represent N, and the whatevers themselves are unimportant?

Yes. Except that to make a number unique, it should be a set of _all_ sets
of exactly N anything. Church numbers, however, have much more
well-defined structure.

Here goes another example: the set of vectors is often defined to be the
set of sets of lines that are equal in length and direction. But
similarly, it can be defined as a set of sets of _anything_ that are equal
in length and direction.

> :-)  I'm not sure if I'd prefer that, or to simply disallow variables to
> be of type "everything" by the time type analysis has finished.

Oh, but every value still is of type everything, even though it had been
restricted to a set of everything that acts similar for some specific
purpose. Here, the difference between "traditional" type systems and this
"descending" type system is mostly terminological.

(( a value of "set of everything that has property X" is of type
"everything", among other types. Its more precise type is "set of
everything that /could/ have property X", whatever that means :) ))

> "Everything" is a very useful abstraction, but it doesn't come in very
> useful in the course of many actual programs - at least not ones I've
> written, but if someone else would care to provide an example, I'd be
> interested to know of it's value...?

Absolutely. Objects of type "everything" can be treated opaquely. They can
be pointed to, forgotten about, compared for identity, given new
properties, and (possibly) asked for identity, compared for equality and
copied (depending on the world model). That's quite a few things, isn't
it?

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 01:48:40 -0700
From: Lord Xarph and his Baseball Bat <lord_xarph@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ADULTS ONLY - HOT COLLEGE GIRLS

sweethotsherry@yahoo.com wrote...
> SEXY COLLEGE TEENS!
<snip>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> This message is sent in compliance of the new email Bill HR 1910.
> Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, 
<snip>

I sink the sexy college teens using the 106th US congress.

-Lx?
-- 
Lord Xarph (Feat. Tod Weitzel)
xarph@xarph.net
http://www.xarph.net




------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:46:20 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lists] [announce] sci@esoteric.sange.fi


I just put up a new list on esoteric.sange.fi. The list is "sci" and is
aimed at miscellaneous scientific discussion. Like "lang", the messages to
"sci" get forwarded to misc@esoteric.sange.fi. The list serves two
purposes:

1. Posting a message to sci@esoteric.sange.fi is an easy way to tag its
being on-topic wrt the (rather broad) topic "science";
2. Those that only subscribe to lang@esoteric.sange.fi might consider
subscribing to this new list if they're interested in the subject.

I suggest that now, while we're still in transition (dog knows for how
long), math &c messages get posted to both list@catseye and sci@esoteric.

Panu

Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh
atehwa@iki.fi




------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:04:00 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [list-meta] binary attachments (Re: [SETI Puzzle] gif of graphs from


> -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar --
> -- Type: image/gif
> -- File: aliengraphs.gif

Here we go again. I managed to find the option that strips these away. It
should now be possible to post non-text attachments to the list.

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:34:25 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [unsol. comm. e-mail] moderation


That reminds me, should I probably put up some spam countermeasures on
misc@esoteric.sange.fi? The posts would only be tagged for moderation, so
you wouldn't have to be careful about your words...

On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Lord Xarph and his Baseball Bat wrote:

> > This message is sent in compliance of the new email Bill HR 1910.

Oh, it is? Okay, I guess you have to be allowed to send those then...
[evil grin]

> I sink the sexy college teens using the 106th US congress.

I hereby sink. <blumph>

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:52:25 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [unsol. comm. e-mail] moderation

Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> 
> That reminds me, should I probably put up some spam countermeasures on
> misc@esoteric.sange.fi? 

Would be nice.

> The posts would only be tagged for moderation, so
> you wouldn't have to be careful about your words...

You could put on a "green list" of Senders you consider are not
spammers. As soon as someone sends a genuine message to the list (s???)he
is added to the green list.

> 
> On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Lord Xarph and his Baseball Bat wrote:
> 
> > > This message is sent in compliance of the new email Bill HR 1910.
> 
> Oh, it is? Okay, I guess you have to be allowed to send those then...
> [evil grin]

I don't think they care anyway. US Congress bills are a lame excuse they
invoke to violate the spirit, if not the words, of the very US congress
bills they invoke. (And, BTW, notice how they don't seem to care about
US not being the whole world ? About foreign laws & lawyers & citizens ?)

> > I sink the sexy college teens using the 106th US congress.
> 
> I hereby sink. <blumph>

Please do. I you could sink the spammers too it would be great.

> 
> Panu



------------------------------

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:33:01 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: [SETI] avoid spoilers in title

>Please avoid to include any spoiler in message titles, if possible,
>thanks !

My apologies. I'm starting to feel a bit like a great big puppy dog 
slobbering and knocking things over. I'll try to be more careful in 
future.
-Daniel.


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:16:29 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: ADULTS ONLY - HOT COLLEGE GIRLS


>-- Unable to decode HTML file!! --

That's rather biased, don't you think?  I mean, I'm sure there are plenty 
of hot college guys just as incapable of decoding HTML as the 
aforementioned girls.
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:34:19 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [SETI] avoid spoilers in title (was Re: [SETI Puzzle] gif of graph

Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> Please avoid to include any spoiler in message titles, if possible,
> thanks !

Um... how about in the future we just ROT13 spoilers?

You can even use ROT13 in Brainf@ck to code and decode them!

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:21:09 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: [SETI] avoid spoilers in title (was Re: [SETI Puzzle] gif


>You can even use ROT13 in Brainf@ck to code and decode them!

Ooh, there's a thought.  My next language will be called @#$%.
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:01:34 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: [SETI] avoid spoilers in title (was Re: [SETI Puzzle] CENSORED)

"Cliff L. Biffle" wrote:
> 
> >You can even use ROT13 in Brainf@ck to code and decode them!
> 
> Ooh, there's a thought.  My next language will be called @#$%.

How d'you pronounce that?

-R


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:16:26 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [Culture] playing "Perceptive Observer" with the tv

Bear with me as I attempt some light deconstruction of CNN content...

Have you ever seen that commercial for "Peregrine Software"?

You know the one if you watch CNN as much as I do.  There's a bunch of -
well, mimes, basically - a bunch of gymnastic actors in black garb.  And
they're all holding coloured foam Balls, and passing them to each other.

Which is fine.  This represents information exchange.  Makes sense. 
Solid symbolism.  OK.

But.

Notice - at the *precise* point in time when the voice-over says
"Peregrine software eliminates friction points" - the mimes *stop*
trading Balls.  Instead they hold their own Ball and swing it around in
front of themselves.

If there's no exchange, of *course* there's no friction.  But there's
also no gain.

Another example.  Jerry Falwell on Crossfire.  Yeah I know, the guy's an
easy target.  But consider this quote from him:

"That idea is as misguided as selling overweight people cookbooks at a
fat farm so that they will *lose* weight.  It's laughable."

OK, so we can infer that Mr. Falwell cannot conceive of a very simple
idea; that of a *diet* cookbook.  If it contains recipes that are
filling but low-calorie, there's no reason it couldn't help people lose
weight.

So what Mr. Falwell was saying was that the idea isn't misguided at
all.  But he said it in an indirect and misleading way.

And IBM is right, it is a different kind of world, you do need a
different kind of software... I'm just of the opinion that they
*seriously* underestimate just *how* different ;-)

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:01:24 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: [] language

On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Daniel Perry wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone knew any more info about it, since it looks pretty
> cool :) http://www.p-nand-q.com/brackets.htm

I think there never was any more info. The main purpose of the language
was cracking fun at the custom of enclosing [topic] in brackets on e-mail
messages. I guess you could make fun writing a virus in [(({}]brackets]},
of course... (apologies if this wasn't my idea) :)

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:16:01 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] implementations for calculators


I'd just like to remind you, be sure to add a resource link in the
esoteric language database (http://www.purists.org/esoteric/) to your new
implementations of such traditional languages as Brainfuck and Befunge.
Especially I'd like to see the new implementations for calculators
(Casio&TI) there.

Panu

Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh
atehwa@iki.fi






------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:20:03 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [unsol. comm. e-mail] moderation

On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote:

> > The posts would only be tagged for moderation, so
> > you wouldn't have to be careful about your words...
>
> You could put on a "green list" of Senders you consider are not
> spammers. As soon as someone sends a genuine message to the list (s???)=
he
> is added to the green list.

That would be bullet-proof, but then it would require me to always be her=
e
approving of new message-senders... and I do spend my time out there, too.

> bills they invoke. (And, BTW, notice how they don't seem to care about
> US not being the whole world ? About foreign laws & lawyers & citizens =
?)

What? Are you claiming there's a world beyond the US? (You wouldn't
believe if you watched the TV for more than five minutes - sadly, I don't=
)

Panu



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:24:09 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: @#$%

> "Cliff L. Biffle" wrote:
> > Ooh, there's a thought.  My next language will be called @#$%.

Does it involve sencored (ouch, does it spell that way?) keywords? Can you
do that to constants, too, if you think they're filthy constants?

On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> How d'you pronounce that?

@#$% is pronounced approximately "fuck", but a gnome somewhere on my
keyboard keeps claiming it should read "two! three! four! five!". I wonder
why...

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:24:56 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [SETI] avoid spoilers in title

I reckon I should have been more careful myself :-(
Thanks.

Frederic

"Daniel." wrote:
> 
> >Please avoid to include any spoiler in message titles, if possible,
> >thanks !
> 
> My apologies. I'm starting to feel a bit like a great big puppy dog
> slobbering and knocking things over. I'll try to be more careful in
> future.
> -Daniel.



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:32:07 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [lang] Re: @#$%



Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> 
> > "Cliff L. Biffle" wrote:
> > > Ooh, there's a thought.  My next language will be called @#$%.
> 
> Does it involve sencored (ouch, does it spell that way?) keywords? Can you
> do that to constants, too, if you think they're filthy constants?

What do you consider filthy constants ?
666 ? 69 ? 3.141592653... ?

> 
> On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> > How d'you pronounce that?
> 
> @#$% is pronounced approximately "fuck", but a gnome somewhere on my
> keyboard keeps claiming it should read "two! three! four! five!". I wonder
> why...

I'd rather say "two three star <html>&ugrave;</html>". That's what
_my_ keyboard's daemon tells me. Of course yours may be more
knowledgeable, as its answers looks more consistent.

While we're at it, my daemon keeps suggesting me some nice character
pictures like:

/+
:=

or:

¨*
^$

Best looked at in fixed-width fonts; preferably wide (non-condensed)
ones.
(This is rather off-topic so I changed the reply-to header.)

Frederic vdP



------------------------------

From: "Martin Sandin" <martin.sandin@eisi.se>
Subject: [lang] When
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:00:33 +0200

Hello!

I'm new to this list and but would like any possible feedback on my =
first foray into language design. The language, named after it's =
possibly most important operator, when, is an 'imperative' language with =
no real flow control features as it always progresses from top bottom, =
line by line. The only way to achieve looping is by attaching rules to =
variables using the 'when' operator. These rules are the examined as the =
variables are assigned to. It's a language that looks somewhat sane and =
alluring due to a fairly rich (and standard) set of operators and two =
usable types (integers and strings) but that quickly turns into a =
headache as event flow control and structuring is best described as =
'confusing'.

When, I believe, qualifies as an 'esoteric' language as it's a =
deliberate attempt produce a language that's not easy to program or =
understand and yet looks quite benevolent. And I really hope that's what =
it is :)

If I were to chose a mascot for When it would likely be a "Venus the =
Flytrap" =3D)

The language description can be found here. All the examples included =
can be run my reference implementation which is an interpreter written =
in Python, soon to be released.

http://www.guldheden.com/~sandin/when/When.txt


-
Martin Sandin
msandin@hotmail.com
http://come.to/vague





------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:03:15 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [sci] Re: platonic ideals

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> In it I try to tear apart the common notions of the Platonic Realm,
> using Godel.  It's not very good (kind of driven by anger...) but
> knowing your opinions of the ancient Greeks I'd be interested to know
> what you think of the approach, and whether it could be improved.

Well, um, that an entity contains itself "as is", ie by identity, is IMO
no reason to question said entity's absoluteness.

What about perfection? If somebody proposed a theory of the contents of
the Platonic Realm, you could show that to be imperfect by showing that
there exists a thing that cannot be proven to be or not to be a part of
the Platonic Realm. However, this would not prove the Platonic Realm not
to exist, only that the people are using a concept that is ill-defined.
Which might be of some use, actually.

> I just don't like catch phrases, and "Platonic Realm" is slowly becoming
> one such catch phrase IMO...

When people start to talk about things like "pure good as such" I usually
regard them (the people) as insignificant for discussion purposes.

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:22:55 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: When

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Martin Sandin wrote:

> When, I believe, qualifies as an 'esoteric' language as it's a
> deliberate attempt produce a language that's not easy to program or
> understand and yet looks quite benevolent. And I really hope that's
> what it is :)

It undoubtedly qualifies as an esoteric language. There is one thing I did
not find from the spec: a specification of the order of activating "when"
rules when updates are being popped.

Chris made a language that is otherwise like yours except that it has no
specified order of evaluation, so that has to be explicitly coded. The
Assurdo Technologies' INTERCAL has a construct "WHILE x DO y" (or
something thereabouts) which is also strongly related to your repetition
idiom.

All in all, When is in my opinion a very neat and clean example of
trigger-based language.

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:28:20 +0300 (EEST)
From: "Panu A. Kalliokoski" <atehwa@oiva.sange.fi>
Subject: Re: the so-called hot college girls

On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:

> >-- Unable to decode HTML file!! --
> That's rather biased, don't you think?  I mean, I'm sure there are plenty 
> of hot college guys just as incapable of decoding HTML as the 
> aforementioned girls.

I'm trying to find a way to have Listar do these hilarious HTML
"conversions" without having it strip the binary attachments. I've been
LOL when the poor spammers try to make a fine mULtIMeDIa spam and end up
their spam being marked "unable to decode"... :)

But as for the discrimination, I think they mean the girls can't decode
HTML files because they're "hot", not because they're "girls".

Panu



------------------------------

From: "Martin Sandin" <msandin@hotmail.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: When
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:54:50 +0200

> It undoubtedly qualifies as an esoteric language. There is one thing I =
did
> not find from the spec: a specification of the order of activating =
"when"
> rules when updates are being popped.

Let's see if I understand this correctly. In that case the answer is =
that rules
are evaluated in the order of creation. I'll write that into the spec.

> Chris made a language that is otherwise like yours except that it has =
no
> specified order of evaluation, so that has to be explicitly coded.=20

Oooh, I'd like to see that! Can I find it anywhere?=3D-)

> Assurdo Technologies' INTERCAL has a construct "WHILE x DO y" (or
> something thereabouts) which is also strongly related to your =
repetition
> idiom.

I'll be sure to check it out.

> All in all, When is in my opinion a very neat and clean example of
> trigger-based language.

Thanks :-)

-
Martin




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 04:21:06 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: [sci] Re: platonic ideals

>  > I just don't like catch phrases, and "Platonic Realm" is slowly becoming
>>  one such catch phrase IMO...
>
>When people start to talk about things like "pure good as such" I usually
>regard them (the people) as insignificant for discussion purposes.

Sure, but that example conflates two issues. Ethical or moral 
statements are pretty clearly about human emotions and human cultural 
rules to the extent they make sense at all. (Not that this is obvious 
to most people.) But what mathematical and logical statements should 
be taken as describing, and whether they're more general than the 
laws of physics--that seems to me to be a real question. Probably one 
of the insolubilia, and so useless to spend too much time on--but 
still, a real question.
-Daniel.




------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: @#$%
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:20:17 -0300

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > "Cliff L. Biffle" wrote:
> > > Ooh, there's a thought.  My next language will be called @#$%.
> 
> Does it involve sencored (ouch, does it spell that way?) keywords? Can you
> do that to constants, too, if you think they're filthy constants?

	It spells like this: censored.

> On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> > How d'you pronounce that?
> 
> @#$% is pronounced approximately "fuck", but a gnome somewhere on my
> keyboard keeps claiming it should read "two! three! four! five!". I wonder
> why...

	LOL, I was going to put this in my sig, until I realized...

-- 
Steve

There comes a time when philosophy is indistinguishable from pulp-fiction.
This is a good time.


------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: the so-called hot college girls
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:23:07 -0300

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Panu A. Kalliokoski wrote:
> But as for the discrimination, I think they mean the girls can't decode
> HTML files because they're "hot", not because they're "girls".
> 
> Panu

	Apparently it's "Adults Only" that get this "hot" disease.

-- 
Steve

There comes a time when philosophy is indistinguishable from pulp-fiction.
This is a good time.


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 08:52:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: the so-called hot college girls

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Panu A. Kalliokoski wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:
> > >-- Unable to decode HTML file!! --
> > That's rather biased, don't you think?  I mean, I'm sure there are plenty 
> > of hot college guys just as incapable of decoding HTML as the 
> > aforementioned girls.
> I'm trying to find a way to have Listar do these hilarious HTML
> "conversions" without having it strip the binary attachments. I've been
> LOL when the poor spammers try to make a fine mULtIMeDIa spam and end up
> their spam being marked "unable to decode"... :)

Can you fiddle with the MIME types and allow (essentially) flat text
and all non-text-based binaries?  Or, more precisely, reject text/html,
text/rtf, and so on?

> But as for the discrimination, I think they mean the girls can't decode
> HTML files because they're "hot", not because they're "girls".

Maybe it was a typo, and they're "hot grills"?  That would make it
harder to decode, I would think.  The hard drive and circuitry would
certainly cease to function appropriately...



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:35:35 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: [Culture] playing "Perceptive Observer" with the tv

Chris Pressey wrote:
> 
> Bear with me as I attempt some light deconstruction of CNN content...
> 

Hmm, the only games I play with the TV are "Sink Broadcast and Cable"
and "Suspend Disbelief for Duration of Movie", so I haven't watched 
CNN since the Elder Bush's Gulf War.

-R


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:02:04 -0500
From: "Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole, BSR" <bsr@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Culture] playing "Perceptive Observer" with the tv

Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> Chris Pressey wrote:
> > Bear with me as I attempt some light deconstruction of CNN content...
> Hmm, the only games I play with the TV are "Sink Broadcast and Cable"
> and "Suspend Disbelief for Duration of Movie", so I haven't watched
> CNN since the Elder Bush's Gulf War.

:-) to each their own game of course...
...I guess I just like playing "Minesweeper" is al :-)

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:21:18 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [lang] Re: When

Martin Sandin wrote:
> > Chris made a language that is otherwise like yours except that it has no
> > specified order of evaluation, so that has to be explicitly coded.
> Oooh, I'd like to see that! Can I find it anywhere?=-)

I think Panu is referring to Strelnokoff.

Oops, it's not up on the web yet.  I'll throw it up right now.

http://www.catseye.mb.ca/esoteric/strelnokoff/

There's almost no proper documentation on it anywhere except in the form
of e-mail archives which I'll have to dig out someday.

Basically it's a "non-deterministic imperative" language: each
instruction updates the value of a variable.  But you don't know the
order of evaluation.  Not at all.  Complete mystery.  Could be random
for all you know.  So you have to explicitly code order in by doing some
light boolean algebra.

Example in the form of a "Hello, world!" program:

  REM HELLO WORLD IN STRELNOKOFF
  REM CHRIS PRESSEY MARCH 24 2001
  X = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * (T =  0) * (PRINT CHAR 'H' - 'H' +  1)
  X = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * (T =  1) * (PRINT CHAR 'e' - 'e' +  2)
  X = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * (T =  2) * (PRINT CHAR 'l' - 'l' +  3)
  X = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * (T =  3) * (PRINT CHAR 'l' - 'l' +  4)
  X = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * (T =  4) * (PRINT CHAR 'o' - 'o' +  5)
  X = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * (T =  5) * (PRINT CHAR ',' - ',' +  6)
  X = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * (T =  6) * (PRINT CHAR ' ' - ' ' +  7)
  X = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * (T =  7) * (PRINT CHAR 'w' - 'w' +  8)
  X = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * (T =  8) * (PRINT CHAR 'o' - 'o' +  9)
  X = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * (T =  9) * (PRINT CHAR 'r' - 'r' + 10)
  X = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * (T = 10) * (PRINT CHAR 'l' - 'l' + 11)
  X = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * (T = 11) * (PRINT CHAR 'd' - 'd' + 12)
  X = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * (T = 12) * (PRINT CHAR '!' - '!' + 13)
  X = (T = X) * 0 + (X > T) * X REM RESET FLAG
  T = (X / X) * X + (X = 0) * T REM INCREMENT TICK

(Remember, order of operations isn't at all important.  That last line
could have come first.  PRINT CHAR merely causes a side effect, the
evaluation continues regardless)

Division by zero yields zero.  Those (X/X)*X's might be redundant, just
hangovers from debugging the example program, I forget right now.  The
point was that X/X would yield 1 if X != 0, but 0 if X = 0.

> > All in all, When is in my opinion a very neat and clean example of
> > trigger-based language.
> Thanks :-)

When does look a lot cleaner than Strelnokoff (which, when you get right
down to it, was largely designed just to be absurd, anyway... and to
look disturbingly like BASIC :-)

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 19:51:24 +0200 (CEST)
From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl)
Subject: [lang] [C and Perl] Esoteric?

Hi,

look at the following C code of a kernel exploit I found in
Linux Magazine (german one):
#include <unistd.h>
#define N NULL
#ifndef i32
#define i32 int
#endif
#define pp +((i32)N)+1)
#define mm -pp
#define mp mm pp
#define pm pp mm
i32 Buffer[] = {(66)mm, 112, (114)pm, 105, 108, (((((35)mm)mm)mm)pm)};
int main (void)
{
  while(((((i32) N)mp)pm)pp)
  write((((i32) N)pm)mp, Buffer, sizeof(Buffer));
 return 0;
}

Two questions:
1. Why wasn't this submitted to the IOCCC?
2. Why isn't C counted as an esoteric programming language?

Perl can be extremely obfuscated, too (well, actually it always is).
Considering the fact that both Perl and C have 'Obfuscated Coding'
Contests, why aren't they considered esoteric?
I know, they have reasonable data-flow ideas, etc. and C, but their
possibilities for writing that kind of incredibly weird code should
count for something, shouldn't it?

Conclusion: Ignore this post

Markus Kliegl

PS: Isn't the Bad Guy's name in 'The Fifth Element' Zork?





------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:27:17 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: [C and Perl] Esoteric?


>PS: Isn't the Bad Guy's name in 'The Fifth Element' Zork?

I always figured it was spelled "Zorg."

Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 20:29:50 +0200 (CEST)
From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl)
Subject: [lang] [eTalk] The new language for eBusinesses


Hi,

I grabbed up an old design for a weird language I had lying
around and changed it a bit. The spec is attached, though
it's not very readable or understandable. I'll get around
to writing an interpreter sometime...

(Hope Listar doesn't throw my attachment off.)

Markus Kliegl


-- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar --
-- File: eTalk

eTalk
~~~~~

Note that this specification is quite unclear and probably
ambigous. I'll rewrite it more clearly some other time. Let me
know if you don't understand anything of what this is supposed
to be about :-)

Here's the design of the new programming language for eBusinesses.
It was designed by an IT-professional (formerly known as
"programmer"), and is all you need for setting up your e-Security
and ensuring your safety. There's another certain word, "esoteric"
that might fit the `e' as well, but such a horribble thought has
no place in the world of successful eBusinessing.

Perl claims to be a more natural language... forget perl, this is
the most natural you can possibly get!

Basically, an eTalk program consists of sentences. A sentence
consists of a person or pronoun a verb, the arguments and of
course a period, question mark or exclamation mark. A pronoun is
a sort of type declaration: I is a string, You is an integer, He
is a character and She is an ascii. A person (e.g. Sally),
however, is sort of a variable. The verb is a command and the
arguments are (obviously) the arguments. A period makes the sentence
a statement and a question mark indicates is used when recalling
some value. An exclamation mark will not be used until I have some
idea what it might be used for :-)

Parantheses are used to sort of group sentences together and to embed
sentences in sentences (mainly)

Comments are created by using the 'They' pronoun and the 'ignore'
command. Here everything until the next punctuation is ignored
(which punctuation is used doesn't matter).

Punctuation and special characters are ignored when put in double-quotes
(").

For flow-control and looping a value of 0, '', "", etc. is interpreted
as false and anything else as true. The value can be negated with the
pronoun we and the verb negate, though.

Flow-control is achieved with logical 'or' and 'and's a la shell-script
(e.g. [ -f "$file" ] && rm $file || echo "..."). 'and' binds higher than
'or'.

Repetition is achieved with 'We repeat (<condition>) (<sentences>).'.

Like in any language, the grammar takes some getting used to :-)

Names must match the regular expression: [A-Z][a-z]*

+---------+--------------------------------+------------+
| Verb    | Action                         | Who?       |
+---------+--------------------------------+------------+
| say     | print arguments to screen      | pronouns   |
| whisper | return value of arguments      | all        |
| ignore  | ignore sentence (comment)      | they       |
| hears   | assign a value                 | name       |
| lose    | subtracts one from value       | you, she   |
| find    | adds one to value              | you, she   |
| remember| assigns sentences              | name       |
| recall  | execute 'remember'ed sentences | name       |
| ask     | reads input                    | pronoun    |
| negate  | logical 'not'                  | we         |
| repeat  | if non-zero repeat a la bf     | we         |
+---------+--------------------------------+------------+

Some examples should be the easiest way to find out what
I mean, as this file is just a bunch of weird ideas that
came to my mind thrown together some way or other.

Examples:
They ignore me and this useless comment.

I say "Hello World!". They ignore will print hello world.

You say 2003. They ignore will print 2003.

He says 65. They ignore will print a.

He says a. They ignore will print a.

She says a. They ignore will print 65.

Sally hears (I whisper "Hi!".). I say (Sally whispers what?).
  They ignore assigns a string to sally and prints it.

John hears (You whisper 200.). Jim remembers (You say (You lose
  (John whispers what?).).). Jim recalls what?

Joe hears (You whisper 10). We repeat (Joe whispers what?)
  (Joe hears (You lose (Joe whispers what?).). You say (Joe
    whispers what?).). They ignore prints 9 to 0.

She whispers 2 and I say "True!" or I say "False!".


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 19:49:40 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <keith@digital-crew.com>
Subject: Re: [games] [virtual machines] Programming game

26/04/2001 15:00:25, Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI> wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:
>
>> I'm almost tempted to go with the Java VM, because I have enough experience
>> sandboxing applications to keep them from eating a system, but it's not
>> quite the small footprint I was after.  Maybe one of the shrunken varieties.
>
> I think what really matters is _how_ the programs interact. Once you have
> that thought out well, you could probably put many different virtual
> machines into the game, for the robots to operate in.

Did that with VMOS/Droid Wars. That's why there were so many different different 
versions. Just as long as the VM provided a certain API for Droid Wars to interact 
with it with (for creating/destroying droid, messages, etc...), concievably any VM 
could work with it. This was my first taste of writing a pre-emptive multitasking 
scheduler and an ARM 2, this was not easy...

Anyway, my arena was a 256*256 grid which the droid moved around on. They moved from 
square to square and could shoot along their horizontal, vertical and diagonal axes. 
It took time for them to turn, though they could move at the same time. There were 
wall, some destructable, others not. If a droid was killed, their remains would be 
left there as an obstruction. Blah, blah, blah...



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 19:49:44 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <keith@digital-crew.com>
Subject: RE: [games] [virtual machines] Programming game

25/04/2001 03:53:22, "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net> wrote:

>>> Style points would be awarded for small programs, programs written in
>>> obscure languages, the most efficient completion of a task, etc.
>> It's game or it's competition??? Or -- who are players? We or VMs?
>
> The way I'm looking at it now, it's similar to some robotics "tasks" I've 
> played with.  The players are broken up into teams.  They must cooperate 
> within the team, and compete between them.

I wrote a game a long time ago which had robots which the players wrote code for. I'd 
been at the main national programming olympiad as a contestant the week before where 
I'd seen a machine running program somewhat like this. I didn't want teams, instead I 
wanted people to just program their robots. I had an API for allowing the different 
robots to communicate with each other. The idea was that groups of robots would forge 
temporary alliances with one another and then dissolve the alliance when it suited 
them. The winner would be the last robot remaining. I called it 'Droid Wars' and the 
VM I used was my own concoction called 'VMOS'. They were both written for the ARM 
processor. There were several different revisions of the VM and it was pretty wierd as 
far as I was concerned at the time. I still don't like the VM's design -- it was icky.

> The "players" are the humans 
> who create the bot code, but have no control over the bots than that once 
> they're released into the wild.

How do you intend to assign teams? Does each 'bot recieve an id and team id on 
initialisation or are they hardwired into the code? I presume there'd be some 
communications mechanism to allow teamwork.

>> I'm far from building Java an altar, but maybe Java (VM in VM?)...
>> Enough rope to hang... In either graphics or network stuff...
>
> I'm almost tempted to go with the Java VM, because I have enough experience 
> sandboxing applications to keep them from eating a system, but it's not 
> quite the small footprint I was after.  Maybe one of the shrunken varieties.

In CoreWar, the idea is to eat your opponents--great fun! I'd go with designing a 
(very simple opcode-wise) VM, look at Chuck Moore's MISC processor family and the ARM 
processor family for inspiration there. The VM should take care of any memory 
protection details by allocating each 'bot it's own chunk of memory and checking 
whether it's gone out of bounds on a read or write. I'd favour stacks. An early 
version of my VMOS had only one register and it used the stack fairly lightly. I think 
I can remember that the later versions had 256 with them all mapped onto the bottom 1k 
of memory rather than being on the processor itself (there was a reason for this, 
can't remember what). I'll leave it at that for now.



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:54:52 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: @#$%

Steve Mosher wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > @#$% is pronounced approximately "fuck", but a gnome somewhere on my
> > keyboard keeps claiming it should read "two! three! four! five!".
> > I wonder why...
>         LOL, I was going to put this in my sig, until I realized...
> --
> Steve
> There comes a time when philosophy is indistinguishable from pulp-fiction.
> This is a good time.

This sounds like a good time to propose some suggestions as to how
list@catseye is evolving.

MTS is labouring under the [likely] misapprehension that Pangea
customers will continue to experience uninterrupted internet service. 
They say that because so few Pangea customers run mailing lists, and
they feel safe overgeneralizing (after all... we're only customers.)

It's gonna be havoc I bet, just like when the ownership of my apartment
block was transferring a coupla years ago.  Lost rental records, voided
tenancy agreements, myopic optimism at how much time people people
should be given to pay rent, followed by dogged inflexibility: utter
bedlam in other words.

So I'm still of the "use it til it breaks" approach.  When it breaks
I'll just try to get onto misc@esoteric.

list@catseye is, for the time being, undergoing a "phantom of the opera"
transformation.  The "opera" itself has moved from list@catseye to
lang@esoteric.  What's down here are the Sewers of Paris... live with
it.  It's messy and stinky but I still think it's better than USENET on
any given day (have you *seen* that place lately?  it's an utter
graveyard.  it's so dead you could strip naked and dance an
algorithmically unbounded shimmy and no one would notice.)

Anyway, the suggestions for the sewers of list@catseye are:

1.  Share the toys.  Don't hog the toys.  Find new toys.
2.  proFanity is encoUraged, espeCially if you Keep it interesting.
3.  Censorship is _also_ OK as long as you do it in inn*vative ways.
4.  When someone reductio's ad absurdum - LAUGH!  'cuz it's ABSURD!
5.  If any given game starts turning into Sink, and that's not what the
participants want, clarify the game and its rules, and try again.
6.  This statement is totally unbelievable.
7.  Spend your Zorkmids freely yet wisely!

_chris

P.S.  I think the bad guy from "5th Element"'s name is "Zorg", too. 
Apparently, though, "Zork" appeared before MIT Dungeon; in a very old
MAD magazine, in a spoof of Flash Gordon...

Dale: "Look out, Flash... behind you!  It's a... it's a... *gasp*...
it's a *ZORK*!"

At least, as I recall from NZT...

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:02:41 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [SETI] avoid spoilers in title

Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> I reckon I should have been more careful myself :-(
> Thanks.
> Frederic
> "Daniel." wrote:
> > >Please avoid to include any spoiler in message titles, if possible,
> > >thanks !
> > My apologies. I'm starting to feel a bit like a great big puppy dog
> > slobbering and knocking things over. I'll try to be more careful in
> > future.
> > -Daniel.

Er... maybe I'm just not paying attention closely enough to the SETI
thread... but if there was a spoiler posted, I missed it...

Besides, if we don't use spoilers occasionally, we'll just go flying off
the track when we try to corner.  What fun is that?  :-)

Did you know that the spoilers on a Formula I racecar generate so much
downforce that the vehicle can stick to the roof of a tunnel
(*upside-down*) at top speed?  Seriously!

Anyway, I think I know what Jenny was asking for, but I've been racking
my brain and I can't think of how you'd go about building it.  The ideas
she was talking about just don't combine well.  Maybe that was the
point.  Maybe she was just teasing me.

Hell, she does that a *lot*...

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 16:27:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [unsol. comm. e-mail] moderation


#include <sarcasm.h>

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:

> What? Are you claiming there's a world beyond the US? (You wouldn't
> believe if you watched the TV for more than five minutes - sadly, I don't)

That's because there isn't.  Chris thinks he's Canadian?  Ha.  Canada is
just greater North Dakota.  Scandinavia is practically
indistinguishable from Wisconsin.

All you 'ferners (that's foreigners) just think you're not part of
us.  You'll figure it out one of these days.




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:51:29 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: [SETI Puzzle][Spoiler] Spoiler spoiler

REALLY, THERE'S A SPOILER IN HERE SOMEWHERE













Chris Pressey wrote:
> Er... maybe I'm just not paying attention closely enough to the SETI
> thread... but if there was a spoiler posted, I missed it...

"gif of graphs" was the in-title spoiler. It wasn't obvious on the 
surface that the message included graphical content.

> Did you know that the spoilers on a Formula I racecar generate so much
> downforce that the vehicle can stick to the roof of a tunnel
> (*upside-down*) at top speed?  Seriously!

Cite?

-R


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 17:00:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: @#$%



On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:

> 3.  Censorship is _also_ OK as long as you do it in inn*vative ways.

I remember a censoring system once that allowed "f u c k", but not
"biscuit".  Now that's what I call innovative.





------------------------------

From: "Jeffry Johnston" <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [MS Outlook] [rules] Total chaos & confusion
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 15:07:43 -0700

Guess what..

I'm getting triplicates of every message, and I'm pretty sure it's *my*
fault :P.  I set up some filters in Microsoft Outlook to block all the
wonderful spam (not talking about the recent list spam's) coming to my new
DSL account.  Well, I didn't want to block the lists, etc, but it looks as
if I've really fouled things up :).

I'm hoping that someone else who uses Outlook would be kind enough to guide
me thru the basics here.  I'm confused.. and quadruples of some of the
messages are going into my Junk Mail folder even as I write this.  Maybe I'm
missing something simple cuz this seems like an esoteric language all by
itself.

I currently have the following mailbox folder configuration:

=Inbox
|_ ESOLang
|_ ESOMisc
|_ Junk Mail

And these address book entries:

ESOMisc
-------
list@catseye.mb.ca (Default E-Mail)
misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi
sci-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi
misc@esoteric.sange.fi
sci@esoteric.sange.fi

ESOLang
-------
lang@esoteric.sange.fi (Default E-Mail)
lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi

StarNet (this is my ISP)
-------
support@azstarnet.com (Default E-mail)
snlobby@azstarnet.com

And three rules, in this order:

ESOMisc
-------
Apply this rule after the message arrives
sent to ESOMisc
move it to the ESOMisc folder

ESOLang
-------
Apply this rule after the message arrives
sent to ESOLang
move it to the ESOLang folder

Junk Mail
---------
Apply this rule after the message arrives
where my name is not in the To box
move it to the Junk Mail folder
except if sent directly to me
	or except if sent only to me
	or except if from StarNet

Thanks a lot for any assistance!
Jeff



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 01:09:01 +0200 (CEST)
From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl)
Subject: Re: [unsol. comm. e-mail] moderation


On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:

> 
> #include <sarcasm.h>
> 
> On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> 
> > What? Are you claiming there's a world beyond the US? (You wouldn't
> > believe if you watched the TV for more than five minutes - sadly, I don't)
> 
> That's because there isn't.  Chris thinks he's Canadian?  Ha.  Canada is
> just greater North Dakota.  Scandinavia is practically
> indistinguishable from Wisconsin.
> 
> All you 'ferners (that's foreigners) just think you're not part of
> us.  You'll figure it out one of these days.

No, you aren't even aware of us... Europe is just somewhere down by
Cuba, remember? ;-)

Markus Kliegl



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 16:33:49 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: [On the meta question game]

>Finagle's Fudge Factor - the number you need to add to your
>findings to make them support your research.

And the thing you multiply them by, for the same purpose, is called 
Finagle's Fudge what?
-Daniel.


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 02:09:24 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: [lang] Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.

I had this idea and I was going to develop and implement it myself 
sometime, but it leans quite heavily on ideas from Befunge and worb. 
And so I thought I would offer the idea to Chris Pressey to develop 
in whatever direction he wanted, since it's so dependent on his work 
already and I don't want to rip him off. And then I thought that if I 
was going to do that I might as well show it to all of you at the 
same time, and see what you thought.
Okay, so the idea is this. In Befunge the program counter/s move 
"inertially" i.e. constant speed and direction until they hit an 
influencing instruction. In worb they move "randomly", except that 
the walls constrain them. So I thought--how about a language in which 
they follow their own agendas, seeking food and avoiding predators?
A program would be two-dimensional or more; it would have a maze of 
walls like worb, but it would also contain arithmetic instructions, 
input and output instructions, and so on, a la Befunge, not just the 
single "beep" instruction of worb. There would be many program 
counters, and they would have goals to seek and dangers to avoid. 
(E.g., another whole set of program counters which do not execute 
instructions, but only seek and destroy the first set, that do.) 
Maybe one of the main goals of the regular counters is to keep their 
"species" alive, so that spawning is of high value (we would then 
want to be careful about how easy we made it to do.)
Then as for the data model. Offhand I'd vote against making it 
stack-based--if there's only one stack we'll lose all coherency and 
if there's one for each program counter that seems unnecessarily 
complex. Maybe it would be sufficient to associate an integer with 
each program counter, besides its location--in fact, maybe maximizing 
the size of that integer should be one of the counters' goals? We 
might also want a command that acts as a memory cell--when executed 
it swaps its current value (initially, zero) with that of the counter 
that executed it?
Then we have all the issues about program counter strategy: do they 
all do the same thing (or all but the nonexecuting predator ones), or 
do different ones have different strategies--can a command change the 
counter's strategy--how does the strategy change with the value of 
the counter's integer--in general how context-sensitive is it and 
what kinds of sensors should we give it--etc. etc.
We'd almost certainly want worb-type diodes, conditional teleports 
from one "room" to another, etc. (I advise against requiring that all 
the information be stored in the map itself--the teleport links and 
the initial locations of counters should probably be specified 
separately, if nothing else.)
Anyway. There are lots of things that could be added, but I hope what 
I've said so far is more or less clear. If Chris doesn't want to play 
with it, I may go ahead and put something together along these 
lines--but I'll be surprised if he doesn't. Programming in this one 
would be more like "social programming" than any other computer 
language I've seen, not that that's saying a lot. There's something 
somewhat amusing about configuring the maze so that as the counters 
scurry about breeding and fleeing dangers they are serving your grand 
design, e.g. printing "Hello world!" (This is actually somewhat 
reminiscent of the stuff about ants in GEB, but I hadn't noticed the 
relationship till just now.)
Anyway. Let me know what you all think.
-Daniel.




------------------------------

From: "Martin Sandin" <msandin@hotmail.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:34:31 +0200

> scurry about breeding and fleeing dangers they are serving your grand
> design, e.g. printing "Hello world!"=20

Is it only me to me that this sound a bit like the followup computer to =
Deep Thought? The one that it was Deep Thought's destiny to invent to =
compute the Question. The one we all wander about on... =3D)

-
Martin
msandin@hotmail.com
When - http://www.guldheden.com/~sandin/when/When.txt





------------------------------

From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: [.:]
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 19:25:47 +0100

The first version is up at http://www.p-nand-q.com/gplz/gplz-colon.htm, and
it can be used to calculate fibonacci :) Check out the nice WHILE construct.

<PYTHON ADVOCACY>
I have to say that every time I code in Python, I like it better and better.
The internal GPLZ structure is so simple (look at statements.py) and then at
the implementation of .: in dotcolon.py - its 111 lines long, and very
simple to read. Ah, the best programming language ever !
</PYTHON ADVOCACY>





------------------------------

From: B20795@hotmail.com
Subject: free quote for mortgage                         21482
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:10:21 -0500


-- Unable to decode HTML file!! --


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:36:05 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: @#$%


>I remember a censoring system once that allowed "f u c k", but not
>"biscuit".  Now that's what I call innovative.

But the real question is, would it allow not biscuit and ~biscuit?
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

From: "Jeffry Johnston" <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 21:57:04 -0700


This language will be great fun!
Please let me know when you finish it so I can play :)

Jeff, wishing he would have thought of it

misc fyi..  I'm hard at work getting a BF interpreter to run on the HP-48..
got a couple square bracket bugs to iron out.  Look for it RSN.

-----Original Message-----
> scurry about breeding and fleeing dangers they are serving your grand
> design, e.g. printing "Hello world!"





------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 01:50:30 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.


>got a couple square bracket bugs to iron out.  Look for it RSN.

Seems that every bug in every implementation is a square-bracket-bug.  How 
can we streamline square-brackets to iron this out?
Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:59:06 +0200 (CEST)
From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl)
Subject: [lang] Re: [C and Perl] Esoteric?


On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:

> 
> >PS: Isn't the Bad Guy's name in 'The Fifth Element' Zork?
> 
> I always figured it was spelled "Zorg."
> 
> Cliff Biffle

I sink that 'g' and raise a 'k'.

Markus Kliegl

PS: If you rot-5 GWADFC you get LBFIKH... all these
    mysteries.





------------------------------

From: changeness4ubby2222@msn.com
Subject: Let us handle it!
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 00:45:29 -0800




Who do you turn to when you
need help collecting on that 
court settlement you've 
already won?

The judicial system has become
so overburdened, that enforcement
has become practically impossible.

Even after being defeated in a 
court of law, some people just 
won't pay up.

We make sure that they do!

Reply today with your name, address,
and phone number.

A representative will contact you
shortly.



**************************************
To be removed from this list
(Click Reply) with "remove
in the subject line.




























------------------------------

From: "James Quinn-Hawtin" <jamesqh@bigpond.com>
Subject: remove
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 01:59:05 +1000


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <changeness4ubby2222@msn.com>
To: <Undisclosed Recipients>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 6:45 PM
Subject: Let us handle it!


> 
> 
> 
> Who do you turn to when you
> need help collecting on that 
> court settlement you've 
> already won?
> 
> The judicial system has become
> so overburdened, that enforcement
> has become practically impossible.
> 
> Even after being defeated in a 
> court of law, some people just 
> won't pay up.
> 
> We make sure that they do!
> 
> Reply today with your name, address,
> and phone number.
> 
> A representative will contact you
> shortly.
> 
> 
> 
> **************************************
> To be removed from this list
> (Click Reply) with "remove
> in the subject line.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:19:38 -0500
From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole <bsr@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: remove

send e-mail to list-unsubscribe@catseye.mb.ca

James Quinn-Hawtin wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <changeness4ubby2222@msn.com>
> To: <Undisclosed Recipients>
> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 6:45 PM
> Subject: Let us handle it!

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:20:42 -0500
From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole <bsr@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [MS Outlook] [rules] Total chaos & confusion

Jeffry Johnston wrote:
> Guess what..
> I'm getting triplicates of every message, and I'm pretty sure it's *my*
> fault :P.  I set up some filters in Microsoft Outlook to block all the
> wonderful spam (not talking about the recent list spam's) coming to my new
> DSL account.  Well, I didn't want to block the lists, etc, but it looks as
> if I've really fouled things up :).

My suggestion:

Unsubscribe from list@catseye.mb.ca use only misc@esoteric.sange.fi
(To unsubscribe send a message to list-unsubscribe@catseye.mb.ca
(That ought to cut it down to just duplicates)
Then maybe unsubscribe from lang@esoteric.sange.fi
(As it too is piped through misc@)

I would normally look into putting some of the spam-prevention tricks
into place on list@catseye, however, since I'm totally expecting it to
not work [the same] in the near future, I don't want to go messing with
qmail and ezmlm in case we use some other software in the future.

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:23:13 -0500
From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole <bsr@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: @#$%

In Effect for the Entire Month of May 2001
------------------------------------------
The Seven Words...
("That You CANNOT SAY on list@catseye.mb.ca")

1. b*sc**t
2. g*d
3. cl**rly
4. m*g*c
5. l*v*nd*r
6. pl*t*n*c
7. e***********

(thanks GOTO George Carlin for the original concept)

*All* violations will be prosecuted!  Even the ones where no one
noticed! A FINE of 1,000 quatloos for each violation will be *strictly*
enforced!!!

**Strictly**!!!

If you cannot afford the fine, you will be placed in A BOX for 24 hours.

If you require assistance, feel free to call the nearest Saurus
Department for free advice (at their own leisure[1]).  Your friendly
neighbourhood Saurus will be glad to help by taking up as much of your
time as you like.  Be sure to cite precisely the number of the word that
you want to say but cannot.

...

I also propose that the month of May be split into two parts: the month
of May(a), which consists of x number of days, and the month of May(b)
which consists of, oh, I don't know, the _rest_ of the days.  Whattya
say?

_chris

[1] i before e except after c... oh, and in the word 'leisure'
apparently

-- 
"We're headed downhill *anyway*...
 ...might as well *step on the gas*!" -- Rex Karz
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 12:50:38 -0500
From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole <bsr@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [GWADFC] search engine!

The GWADFC site now hosts a search engine which indexes almost four
hundred online Discordian Documents at GWADFC, POEE, Cabaret Discordia,
and HyperDiscordia.

  http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/

The main page has been reformatted.  Links to many GWADFC documents have
been moved to the library:

  http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/library.html

We also have a whole section devoted to GWADFC comic strips now (nine of
'em)!  Definately worth checking out.

  http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/comics/index.html

Hail Stones!  Wash Rooms!  Pet Food!

-BSR

-- 
"If you give a man fire, he'll be warm for today.
 If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
bsr@catseye.mb.ca


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 22:02:06 +0300
From: "J. A. =?iso-8859-1?Q?N=E4kk=E4l=E4j=E4rvi?=" <kaatunut@saunalahti.fi>
Subject: Re: remove

Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote:

> send e-mail to list-unsubscribe@catseye.mb.ca
>
> James Quinn-Hawtin wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <changeness4ubby2222@msn.com>
> > To: <Undisclosed Recipients>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 6:45 PM
> > Subject: Let us handle it!
>
> --
> "She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
>  ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
> Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
> Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html

He obviously didn't try to unsubscribe from list@catseye.mb.ca, but
"unsubscribe" from the "mailing list" (spam) that sent its spam to
list@catseye.mb.ca.

No reason to say this. Just contributing to spam.

 -Kaatunut



------------------------------

From: "Jeffry Johnston" <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:38:18 -0700


Good question.. The methods I'm using I pretty much worked out when making
my tiny compiler/interpreter (I reworked those over and over coming up with
all sorts of improvements).  My problem isn't the method, it's expressing it
in this UserRPL.  I'm also trying to be tricky and use the stack for the
bracket stack so I'm pretty sure that's where some of the problems are.  One
thing I didn't catch till last night: INCR/DECR give a numeric result, but
they also modify the original variable.. so that screwed up some pieces of
code.  I've since changed a lot of them to 1 + and 1 -.

And after this the HP-38 .. well maybe if I'm still sane :)

Has the TI-82 been done already?  That thing is a joy to program for; I
could get it no problem.  I know you were working on some higher end TI's.

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi
[mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Cliff L. Biffle
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 1:51 AM
To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.



>got a couple square bracket bugs to iron out.  Look for it RSN.

Seems that every bug in every implementation is a square-bracket-bug.  How
can we streamline square-brackets to iron this out?
Cliff Biffle









------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 14:31:23 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: remove

"J. A. Näkkäläjärvi" wrote:
> Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote:
> > send e-mail to list-unsubscribe@catseye.mb.ca
> > James Quinn-Hawtin wrote:
> > > [remove]
> He obviously didn't try to unsubscribe from list@catseye.mb.ca, but
> "unsubscribe" from the "mailing list" (spam) that sent its spam to
> list@catseye.mb.ca.

Whoopsie.

Um, I don't think that will work unless it's sent from
list@catseye.mb.ca.

Um, to rephrase what I said, if you want to avoid spam and don't mind
avoiding people being CLEARLY MAD as well, unsubscribe from list@catseye
and subscribe to lang@esoteric.sange.fi (instructions found at URL
listed in my sig.)

> No reason to say this. Just contributing to spam.

Playing with spam is fun!  Eating it sucks ass.

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 20:53:18 +0000 (UTC)
From: Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>
Subject: Re: remove

On Sun, 29 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:

> "J. A. N=E4kk=E4l=E4j=E4rvi" wrote:
> > Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote:
> > > send e-mail to list-unsubscribe@catseye.mb.ca
> > > James Quinn-Hawtin wrote:
> > > > [remove]
> > He obviously didn't try to unsubscribe from list@catseye.mb.ca, but
> > "unsubscribe" from the "mailing list" (spam) that sent its spam to
> > list@catseye.mb.ca.
>=20
> Whoopsie.
>=20
> Um, I don't think that will work unless it's sent from
> list@catseye.mb.ca.

It won't work at all: you didn't subscribe list@catseye.mb.ca to any
lists, did you?

Never reply to spam: that just confirms that someone has received the spam
and read it, and exposes the addresses in your reply to further spam.

If you want to do something about it, forward it with full headers to
spamcop@spamcop.net.

Chris: if you want to cut down the amount of spam received,
add an rblsmtpd command to qmail-smtpd's run file.

--=20
Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:14:42 -0700
From: Brian Raiter <breadbox@muppetlabs.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.

>> got a couple square bracket bugs to iron out.  Look for it RSN.
> 
> Seems that every bug in every implementation is a square-bracket-bug.

Well, that kind of stands to reason, doesn't it? I mean, you're not
particularly likely to have a plus/minus-bug instead....

In my 171-byte BF compiler, I count the number of bytes of machine
specifically used for handling each command roughly as follows:

prolog 12
  <     6
  >     6
  +     7
  -     7
  ,     8
  .    12
  [    13
  ]    23
epilog  9

(The remainder is 48 bytes of executable file header data and about 20
bytes of initialization, reading the source code, writing the binary
data, and other housekeeping.)

b




------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:49:20 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.


>   [    13
>   ]    23

Why the difference?  My pseudocode for the two is nearly identical.

if op = "[" then
         bx = 1
         while bx != 0
                 pc = pc + 1
                 if program[pc] = "[" then bx = bx + 1
                 if program[pc] = "]" then bx = bx - 1
         end while
end if

if op = "]" then
         bx = -1
         while bx != 0
                 pc = pc - 1
                 if program[pc] = "[" then bx = bx + 1
                 if program[pc] = "]" then bx = bx - 1
         end while
end if

(Some of my BFs actually use the same routine to handle both.)

Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 17:58:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: @#$%



On Sun, 29 Apr 2001, Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote:
> In Effect for the Entire Month of May 2001
> ------------------------------------------
> The Seven Words...
> ("That You CANNOT SAY on list@catseye.mb.ca")
> 
> 1. b*sc**t
> 2. g*d
> 3. cl**rly
> 4. m*g*c
> 5. l*v*nd*r
> 6. pl*t*n*c
> 7. e***********

Why restrict it to list@catseye?  You should modify the search script for
the gwadfc to yell at people for using naughty words like effervescent
(but seriously, take my quatloos, please).





------------------------------

From: "Jeffry Johnston" <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] was: Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 16:10:07 -0700

I'm curious how small yours would be if ported to MS-DOS
Here is the rundown on mine (BF compiler 123 bytes, for MS-DOS)

i/o & loop 39
clear mem 11
 <  3
 >  3
 +  4
 -  4
 ,  8
 .  8
 [  35
 ]  4
 @  3	 (could be changed to the EOF marker, but I like @ better)
other 1
---------
123 bytes

I've included surrounding code bytes in the above (for example, it really
just takes one byte for the actual ">" code and two for "+")

I am *REALLY* hoping for someone to show me up here!  This record can't
stand.  123 bytes is huge!  Pull out that dusty ASM manual and start coding!

Jeff
btw, got the HP-48 BF interpreter working.. cleaning it up and getting it
ready to post

---------
In my 171-byte BF compiler, I count the number of bytes of machine
specifically used for handling each command roughly as follows:

prolog 12
  <     6
  >     6
  +     7
  -     7
  ,     8
  .    12
  [    13
  ]    23
epilog  9

(The remainder is 48 bytes of executable file header data and about 20
bytes of initialization, reading the source code, writing the binary
data, and other housekeeping.)

b








------------------------------

From: "Jeffry Johnston" <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 16:30:11 -0700

>   [    13
>   ]    23
> Why the difference?  My pseudocode for the two is nearly identical.

The difference is most likely a difference in the interpretation of [ and ].

Most webpages BF description of []:
[  if the value at the pointer is 0 then jump past matching ]
]  always jump back to matching [

One(that I know of) webpage's BF description of []:
[  if the value at the pointer is 0 then jump past matching ]
]  if the value at the pointer is NOT 0 then jump back to matching [

They accomplish the same thing but the first way is smaller, code-wise.
Personally, the first one makes more sense to my mind.  Whether or not it
was the original spec, I have no idea, and I guess it doesn't really matter
:).

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi
[mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Cliff L. Biffle
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 3:49 PM
To: lang@esoteric.sange.fi
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.




if op = "[" then
         bx = 1
         while bx != 0
                 pc = pc + 1
                 if program[pc] = "[" then bx = bx + 1
                 if program[pc] = "]" then bx = bx - 1
         end while
end if

if op = "]" then
         bx = -1
         while bx != 0
                 pc = pc - 1
                 if program[pc] = "[" then bx = bx + 1
                 if program[pc] = "]" then bx = bx - 1
         end while
end if

(Some of my BFs actually use the same routine to handle both.)

Cliff Biffle









------------------------------

From: "Jeffry Johnston" <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: RE: [MS Outlook] [rules] Total chaos & confusion
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 16:40:13 -0700



Yeah, I'm actually NOT subscribed to list@catseye.mb.ca on this DSL
account..  I just have it screwed up bad here in Outlookville.  BTW, to
clarify, I'm not trying to filter spams that come thru the list internally,
just outside spams.

I'll get it one of these days :)
Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi
[mailto:misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Bishop Squarepeg
Roundhole
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 9:21 AM
To: list@catseye.mb.ca
Subject: Re: [MS Outlook] [rules] Total chaos & confusion


Jeffry Johnston wrote:
> Guess what..
> I'm getting triplicates of every message, and I'm pretty sure it's *my*
> fault :P.  I set up some filters in Microsoft Outlook to block all the
> wonderful spam (not talking about the recent list spam's) coming to my new
> DSL account.  Well, I didn't want to block the lists, etc, but it looks as
> if I've really fouled things up :).

My suggestion:

Unsubscribe from list@catseye.mb.ca use only misc@esoteric.sange.fi
(To unsubscribe send a message to list-unsubscribe@catseye.mb.ca
(That ought to cut it down to just duplicates)
Then maybe unsubscribe from lang@esoteric.sange.fi
(As it too is piped through misc@)

I would normally look into putting some of the spam-prevention tricks
into place on list@catseye, however, since I'm totally expecting it to
not work [the same] in the near future, I don't want to go messing with
qmail and ezmlm in case we use some other software in the future.

_chris

--
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html




------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 16:45:35 -0700
From: Brian Raiter <breadbox@muppetlabs.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.

>>   [    13
>>   ]    23
> 
> Why the difference?

The basic issue is that the compiler can't complete the translation of
"[" until it's seen the matching "]".

> My pseudocode for the two is nearly identical.
> 
> if op = "[" then
>          bx = 1
>          while bx != 0
>                  pc = pc + 1
>                  if program[pc] = "[" then bx = bx + 1
>                  if program[pc] = "]" then bx = bx - 1
>          end while
> end if
> 
> if op = "]" then
>          bx = -1
>          while bx != 0
>                  pc = pc - 1
>                  if program[pc] = "[" then bx = bx + 1
>                  if program[pc] = "]" then bx = bx - 1
>          end while
> end if

That works for an interpreter, but not for a compiler.

Given the standard Brainfuck program "+[.+]", my compiler emits a
program like the following:

	;; prolog stuff
	inc	byte [ecx]	; "+"
	jmp	near C4		; "["
C2:	mov	al, 4		; "."
	mov	bl, 1
	int	0x80
	inc	byte [ecx]	; "+"
C4:	cmp	dh, [ecx]	; "]"
	jnz	near C2
	;; epilog stuff

Translating the compiler's bracket routines into pseudocode would look
something like this:

if (input == "[") {
    push(addr + 1)
    *addr = "jmp near ????"
    addr += 5
}

if (input == "]") {
    *addr = "cmp dh, [ecx] / jnz near ????"
    addr += 4
    fore = addr
    back = pop()
    fore -= back
    *back = fore   /* points the "jmp near" at "cmp dh, [ecx]" */
    back -= addr
    *addr = back   /* points the "jnz near" to just after the "jmp near" */
    addr += 4
}

b




------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 16:57:24 -0700
From: Brian Raiter <breadbox@muppetlabs.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] was: Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.

> I'm curious how small yours would be if ported to MS-DOS

Well... Using MSDOS would permit using .com files, which have no
header data, so that's 48 bytes of ELF header which I wouldn't need.
I also wouldn't need to output a valid ELF header for the compiled
program -- that would shave off a few more bytes. It would be all
16-bit code, too, which would certainly help. On the other hand, ELF
allows me to automatically zero out the bss section -- a .com program
would have to do that directly. There may be one or two other things
that I'm overlooking which would add to the size.

Hard to say, really.

b




------------------------------

From: "Jeffry Johnston" <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [lang] [bf] [calc] HP-48 BF interpreter
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:00:21 -0700

Hewlett Packard HP-48 BrainF*** Interpreter (UserRPL)

Key to Symbols
--------------
<< 	Opening guillemet (purple above the "-" key) 
>>	Closing guillemet 
<=	Less than or equal to
a{	Alpha key
<-	Left shift arrow (purple)
->	Right shift arrow (cyan)
y:	Lowercase y, umlaut accent (character 255)

Custom Keyboard Program (push CST and NXT to access more chars)
-----------------------
<< { "<" ">" "+" "-" ", "@" "[" "]" "." "->." "y:" } MENU >>
'KEYS' STO

Manual entry of special characters (also ->PRG for table)
----------------------------------
>       a{->2
<       a{<-2
+       a{+
-       a{-
.       .
,       <-.
[]      <-x (multiplication key)
@       a{->ENTER
LF      ->. (must push ENTER after using LF)
y:      a{<-Y a{<-9

Sample BF program
-----------------
",+[-.,+]@"
'SOURCE' STO

BF Interpreter Program
----------------------
<<
"                     " 'SCRN' STO
CLLCD SCRN 0 DISP
{ 1 5000 } 0 CON 'DATA' STO
0 'QUIT' 0 'IPP' 1 'MP' STO STO STO
DO
  'IPP' INCR DROP
  SOURCE IPP IPP SUB NUM 'IPV' STO
  DATA MP GET 'MPV' STO
  IF 'IPV==43' THEN DATA MP MPV 1 + 256 MOD PUT 'DATA' STO END
  IF 'IPV==45' THEN DATA MP MPV 1 - 256 MOD PUT 'DATA' STO END            
  IF 'IPV==60' THEN 'MP' DECR DROP END 
  IF 'IPV==62' THEN 'MP' INCR DROP END 
  IF 'IPV==64' THEN 1 'QUIT' STO END         
  IF 'IPV==46' THEN SCRN 2 22 SUB MPV CHR + 'SCRN' STO SCRN 0 DISP END    
  IF 'IPV==44' THEN DATA MP SCRN "" INPUT NUM PUT 'DATA' STO END     
  IF 'IPV==93' THEN 'IPP' STO END      
  IF 'IPV==91' THEN  
    IF 'MPV==0' THEN
      1 'LVL' STO
      DO
        'IPP' INCR DROP
        SOURCE IPP IPP SUB NUM 'IPV' STO
        IF 'IPV==91' THEN 'LVL' INCR DROP END
        IF 'IPV==93' THEN 'LVL' DECR DROP END
      UNTIL 'LVL<=0' END  
    ELSE
      IPP 1 -
    END
  END
UNTIL 'QUIT' END
SCRN 5 22 SUB
'DATA' 'MP' 'MPV' 'IPP' 'IPV' 'LVL' 'QUIT' 'SCRN'
PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE
>>
'BF' STO

Variables Used (* Purged automatically on BF exit)
--------------
BF      BF Interpreter
SOURCE  BF Program Source
KEYS    Custom Keyboard Program
*DATA   Memory (5000 bytes)
*MP     MP - Memory Pointer
*MPV    [MP]
*IP     IP - Instruction Pointer
*IPV    [IP]
*LVL    Bracket depth
*QUIT   End Program?
*SCRN   Text Output Screen

Have fun,
Jeff




------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:50:48 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.


>One(that I know of) webpage's BF description of []:
>[  if the value at the pointer is 0 then jump past matching ]
>]  if the value at the pointer is NOT 0 then jump back to matching [

That's what I've always implemented, because it's a speed 
optimization.  But the pseudocode described in my last e-mail only changes 
by one line (if mem = 0 or whatever), so I don't see that really being a 
factor.
Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:53:56 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.


>The basic issue is that the compiler can't complete the translation of
>"[" until it's seen the matching "]".

*slaps forehead*  Yours is a compiler.  Duh.  Okay.

I'm not familiar with that syntax.  Is that x86?  (Never written x86.)

Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 20:15:59 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.

>Most webpages BF description of []:
>[  if the value at the pointer is 0 then jump past matching ]
>]  always jump back to matching [
>
>One(that I know of) webpage's BF description of []:
>[  if the value at the pointer is 0 then jump past matching ]
>]  if the value at the pointer is NOT 0 then jump back to matching [

The latter has two advantages. First, it preserves the symmetry of 
the language better. (Especially if both are phrased as "jump to 
matching whatever" or both as "jump to just after matching whatever". 
Of these two, the first is simpler, the second closer to compiler 
practice.)
Second, as Cliff Biffle has mentioned, it's faster (in the "jump to 
just after" case). With the test at the end, not a jump to the test, 
we only have to make one jump per trip through the loop, not two.
(I became reconciled to the "do while" loop in C when i realized the 
machine code for it was actually briefer than for "while".)
-Daniel.




------------------------------

From: "Jeffry Johnston" <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] [calc] [speed] HP-48 BF interpreter "Hello World" 
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 21:19:42 -0700

Just a quick note about the BF calc project.. the following hello world
program takes just under 5 minutes to complete (4min50sec :).

++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<++++++++
+++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@

(I didn't come up with this Hello World program, I used it because it's the
shortest I've seen and I didn't feel like typing a lot :)

By way of comparison, the Casio CFX-9800G (which isn't exactly a powerhouse)
took approx 1 minute to complete.  I'm unusure of the exact time because
after each "letter" (number) is displayed you have to push 'EXE'.

I'm sure the HP would win if I used the SystemRPL, but I'm not too
interested in doing that.

I'm curious to hear about the other calc implementations.  Using the exact
program above, how long does it take to complete?

Jeff





------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:13:02 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] [calc] [speed] HP-48 BF interpreter "Hello


>Just a quick note about the BF calc project.. the following hello world
>program takes just under 5 minutes to complete (4min50sec :).

The TI-92 takes about three minutes on the same task, when running an 
interpreted "user-mode" language.  This is considerably more pathetic than 
the HP-48 score, considering the difference in processors. :-)
(And no, I'm not a TI/HP bigot. :-)

>(I didn't come up with this Hello World program, I used it because it's the
>shortest I've seen and I didn't feel like typing a lot :)

*shrug*  I have a full QWERTY on -my- calculator, and I -still- sent it 
over the com port. :-)

>By way of comparison, the Casio CFX-9800G (which isn't exactly a powerhouse)
>took approx 1 minute to complete.  I'm unusure of the exact time because
>after each "letter" (number) is displayed you have to push 'EXE'.

*blink*
*blink*  Really?  That seems strange.  Surely there's another way to do that.
(Well, yeah, SystemRPL.  But in User I'd think there'd be a way to avoid that.)

>I'm sure the HP would win if I used the SystemRPL, but I'm not too
>interested in doing that.

My TI-GCC Brainf*ck interpreter (written in our equivalent to SystemRPL) 
executes the above program in 8.3 milliseconds.  I'd be interested to see 
how the SysRPL version performs, just for comparison's sake.

>I'm curious to hear about the other calc implementations.  Using the exact
>program above, how long does it take to complete?

See above. :-)
The TI-BASIC version (tokenized BASIC) is about three minutes.
Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:21:07 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.


>The latter [using comparisons for both brackets] has two advantages. 
>First, it preserves the symmetry of the language better. (Especially if 
>both are phrased as "jump to matching whatever" or both as "jump to just 
>after matching whatever". Of these two, the first is simpler, the second 
>closer to compiler practice.)

Agreed.  As mentioned before, I've managed to implement both bracket 
functions with the same code in one of my interpreters.  (And uBF, the 
Bra*nfuck microcontroller I'm tinkering on, handles both with the same 
"silicon.")

>Second, as Cliff Biffle has mentioned, it's faster (in the "jump to just 
>after" case). With the test at the end, not a jump to the test, we only 
>have to make one jump per trip through the loop, not two.

Unless, of course, you're jumping-to-matching instead of 
jumping-next-to-matching.  Then you get an extra test every 
iteration.  Though tests are generally much faster than jumps (often by an 
order of magnitude).

Speaking of which, "orders of magnitude" is a very decimal-centric 
concept.  I'd like to suggest the term "orders of magnitood" for describing 
things that vary by a power of 2.  As such, a 2x increase in speed is an 
order of magnitood, whereas a 16x increase is four orders of 
magnitood.  (Alternatively, an order of magnifored.)

>(I became reconciled to the "do while" loop in C when i realized the 
>machine code for it was actually briefer than for "while".)

That doesn't surprise me.  My naive translation of while (as I've never 
written a compiler of that sort) would be

         jmp TEST
BODY:
...body of loop...
TEST:
         [comparison]
         jeq BODY

Whereas do...while avoids that initial jump, saving both code and 
cycles.  (I personally am quite fond of instructions like 
decrement-and-branch-if-zero, a la M68K and doubtless other architectures.)

Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:23:22 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.


>...Cliff Biffle...

*giggle*  I so rarely am referred to by my full name.  (Well, that isn't 
actually my full name, which is a full ten characters longer.)
Generally it's Biffle, Cliffle, or some permutation thereof (Clifflebiffle, 
Biffcliffle, etc.)
Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

From: "Jeffry Johnston" <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] [calc] [speed] HP-48 BF interpreter "Hello World" 
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:47:52 -0700

>By way of comparison, the Casio CFX-9800G (which isn't exactly a
powerhouse)
>took approx 1 minute to complete.  I'm unusure of the exact time because
>after each "letter" (number) is displayed you have to push 'EXE'.

*blink*
*blink*  Really?  That seems strange.  Surely there's another way to do
that.
(Well, yeah, SystemRPL.  But in User I'd think there'd be a way to >avoid
that.)

--------
Oops sorry for the confusion.. the Casio is the one that makes you push
enter after each "letter"; letter being 100 for a lowercase "d" :)  On the
HP I used a string as wide as the screen and it scrolls as new letters are
added (one every few seconds after 4+ minutes of waiting).  I'm not sure
about doing SystemRPL.  I'll look into it.

Jeff





------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:01:25 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.

>>The latter [using comparisons for both brackets] has two 
>>advantages. First, it preserves the symmetry of the language 
>>better. (Especially if both are phrased as "jump to matching 
>>whatever" or both as "jump to just after matching whatever". Of 
>>these two, the first is simpler, the second closer to compiler 
>>practice.)
>
>Agreed.  As mentioned before, I've managed to implement both bracket 
>functions with the same code in one of my interpreters.  (And uBF, 
>the Bra*nfuck microcontroller I'm tinkering on, handles both with 
>the same "silicon.")
>
>>Second, as Cliff Biffle has mentioned, it's faster (in the "jump to 
>>just after" case). With the test at the end, not a jump to the 
>>test, we only have to make one jump per trip through the loop, not 
>>two.
>
>Unless, of course, you're jumping-to-matching instead of 
>jumping-next-to-matching.

Mm, yeah...that's what I meant by "(in the "jump to just after" 
case)". The "jump to matching" makes for a more succinct description 
of language semantics; the "jump to just after matching" is what 
anyone sensible would do in implementing a compiler.

>Speaking of which, "orders of magnitude" is a very decimal-centric concept.
>I'd like to suggest the term "orders of magnitood" for describing 
>things that vary by a power of 2.  As such, a 2x increase in speed 
>is an order of magnitood, whereas a 16x increase is four orders of 
>magnitood.  (Alternatively, an order of magnifored.)

I agree entirely.

>>(I became reconciled to the "do while" loop in C when i realized 
>>the machine code for it was actually briefer than for "while".)
>
>That doesn't surprise me.  My naive translation of while (as I've 
>never written a compiler of that sort) would be
>
>         jmp TEST
>BODY:
>...body of loop...
>TEST:
>         [comparison]
>         jeq BODY
>
>Whereas do...while avoids that initial jump, saving both code and 
>cycles.  (I personally am quite fond of instructions like 
>decrement-and-branch-if-zero, a la M68K and doubtless other 
>architectures.)

Agreed. (The *86 architecture has several variants on "decrement and 
branch if nonzero", called "LOOP", "LOOPZ", "LOOPNZ".) Though in 
implementing the "while" I'd be inclined to duplicate the comparison 
at the top, and do a conditional jump to after the final "jeq". This 
saves a few cycles at the expense of duplicating code. Personal 
preference.
-Daniel.




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:51:45 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] [calc] [speed] HP-48 BF interpreter "Hello


>Oops sorry for the confusion.. the Casio is the one that makes you push
>enter after each "letter"; letter being 100 for a lowercase "d" :)

Ah, I see.  I could have figured that one out, as my Casio has EXE in the 
corner and my HPs do not. :-)
Well, the Casios have never been renowned for their programming 
prowess.  Is there some sort of "graphical" character-putting routine?  I 
wouldn't think that would require a keypress.  (On the TI's it's along the 
lines of PxlText Y, X, Text.)

>On the
>HP I used a string as wide as the screen and it scrolls as new letters are
>added (one every few seconds after 4+ minutes of waiting).  I'm not sure
>about doing SystemRPL.  I'll look into it.

*nods*  On the TIs I use the aforementioned PxlText, and I manually adjust 
the X/Y coords.  Not optimal, but acceptable.

SystemRPL is a nice language.  I read up on it quite a bit when learning 
Forth, as they're really very similar.  (A compiled RPL program is even a 
list of addresses, just like a compiled Forth program -- it's really only 
the syntaxes that differ.)  (Syntaxen?)

Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:49:40 +0300 (EEST)
From: "Panu A. Kalliokoski" <atehwa@oiva.sange.fi>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.

Message-ID: <3AEA9F80.E266837C@saunalahti.fi>
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 13:46:24 +0300
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Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.
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"Daniel." wrote:

> I had this idea and I was going to develop and implement it myself
> sometime, but it leans quite heavily on ideas from Befunge and worb.
> And so I thought I would offer the idea to Chris Pressey to develop
> in whatever direction he wanted, since it's so dependent on his work
> already and I don't want to rip him off. And then I thought that if I
> was going to do that I might as well show it to all of you at the
> same time, and see what you thought.

Sound great, but please use more chapter breaks. My head hurts.

> Okay, so the idea is this. In Befunge the program counter/s move
> "inertially" i.e. constant speed and direction until they hit an
> influencing instruction. In worb they move "randomly", except that
> the walls constrain them. So I thought--how about a language in which
> they follow their own agendas, seeking food and avoiding predators?

The Incredible Fungeoid! TIM was not only tinkering with machines, it
was also manipulating the minds of those mouses and cats... this could
be like the esoteric programming language version of that. I love it! Go
design and implement it.

> A program would be two-dimensional or more; it would have a maze of
> walls like worb, but it would also contain arithmetic instructions,
> input and output instructions, and so on, a la Befunge, not just the
> single "beep" instruction of worb. There would be many program
> counters, and they would have goals to seek and dangers to avoid.
> (E.g., another whole set of program counters which do not execute
> instructions, but only seek and destroy the first set, that do.)
> Maybe one of the main goals of the regular counters is to keep their
> "species" alive, so that spawning is of high value (we would then
> want to be careful about how easy we made it to do.)

I think that should be decided by coder in a definition set. People
could then have programming contests, like, with these parameters, who
can make the fastest fibonacci etc.

> Then as for the data model. Offhand I'd vote against making it
> stack-based--if there's only one stack we'll lose all coherency and
> if there's one for each program counter that seems unnecessarily
> complex. Maybe it would be sufficient to associate an integer with
> each program counter, besides its location--in fact, maybe maximizing
> the size of that integer should be one of the counters' goals? We
> might also want a command that acts as a memory cell--when executed
> it swaps its current value (initially, zero) with that of the counter
> that executed it?

I must be some kind of sick weirdo, but the almost-one-stack model of
befunge mostly nauseated me. I loved BF's wacked representation, but I
couldn't make myself do anything useful with it, not with the lack of
decent subroutines or data model.

> Then we have all the issues about program counter strategy: do they
> all do the same thing (or all but the nonexecuting predator ones), or
> do different ones have different strategies--can a command change the
> counter's strategy--how does the strategy change with the value of
> the counter's integer--in general how context-sensitive is it and
> what kinds of sensors should we give it--etc. etc.

Nonexisting? Why nonexisting? Allow befunge98-style threading, with
different strategies for different threads. Basic select() poll:

Prey thread is peacefully paddling in a loop, doing not much, and
predator thread stalks around file descriptor. Then, a scary thing
(data) jumps out of file descriptor, predator runs away, bumps into prey
who panics and runs away to handle the data that arrived.

> We'd almost certainly want worb-type diodes, conditional teleports
> from one "room" to another, etc. (I advise against requiring that all
> the information be stored in the map itself--the teleport links and
> the initial locations of counters should probably be specified
> separately, if nothing else.)

The point is to preserve a nice Befungeish grid, isn't it? I think, with
our present rectangular technology, best idea is to make a usual grid,
one square being maybe 1 or at most 4 characters. Any additional data is
separate, and use of aliases to handle complicated references is
encouraged. Then again, if you don't care about portability, it could
just /look/ like nice grid in IDE and be saved in some obscure format
that allows any amount of data in one square.

> Anyway. There are lots of things that could be added, but I hope what
> I've said so far is more or less clear. If Chris doesn't want to play
> with it, I may go ahead and put something together along these
> lines--but I'll be surprised if he doesn't. Programming in this one
> would be more like "social programming" than any other computer
> language I've seen, not that that's saying a lot. There's something
> somewhat amusing about configuring the maze so that as the counters
> scurry about breeding and fleeing dangers they are serving your grand
> design, e.g. printing "Hello world!" (This is actually somewhat
> reminiscent of the stuff about ants in GEB, but I hadn't noticed the
> relationship till just now.)

GEB?

 -Kaatunut




// eompost 3AEA9F70:F276.1:zvfp







---
Listar v0.129a - job execution complete.





---
Listar v0.129a - job execution complete.






------------------------------

From: "James Quinn-Hawtin" <jamesqh@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: remove
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 18:33:05 +1000

Sorry - didn't realise that it was coming from list@catseye.mb.ca ... just
thought it was going straight to my email address and i was attempting to
get my email removed from their list.  wasn't trying to unsubscribe from the
catseye list or trying to unsubscribe the catseye list from the spam list.

Cheers
 - James


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole" <bsr@catseye.mb.ca>
To: <list@catseye.mb.ca>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: remove


> send e-mail to list-unsubscribe@catseye.mb.ca
>
> James Quinn-Hawtin wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <changeness4ubby2222@msn.com>
> > To: <Undisclosed Recipients>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 6:45 PM
> > Subject: Let us handle it!
>
> --
> "She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
>  ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
> Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
> Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html
>



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:41:29 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [games] [virtual machines] Programming game

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Keith Gaughan wrote:
>
> Anyway, my arena was a 256*256 grid which the droid moved around on.
> They moved from square to square and could shoot along their
> horizontal, vertical and diagonal axes.  It took time for them to
> turn, though they could move at the same time. There were wall, some
> destructable, others not. If a droid was killed, their remains would
> be left there as an obstruction. Blah, blah, blah...

Seems to make a pretty complete environment... of course, you can't
possibly be "fair" in the design of battle areas, because some AI's tend
to work well in dither-random of more than 40% wall, some in less than
that, and some work well with randomly-placed long wall stripes, just to
mention a few possibilities.

Maybe the rules of robot movement, actions and senses should also be
unspecified, and one should try to come up with an API that enables very
strong input-gathering but gives unreliable results when the robot is
unable to get the data it wants either partially or wholly.

Panu




------------------------------

From: "Jeffry Johnston" <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] [calc] [speed] HP-48 BF interpreter "Hello World" 
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 01:43:08 -0700



Well, the Casios have never been renowned for their programming
prowess.  Is there some sort of "graphical" character-putting routine?  I
wouldn't think that would require a keypress.  (On the TI's it's along the
lines of PxlText Y, X, Text.)

------

I suppose the chars could be individually drawn out with line statements,
but otherwise not that I know of.

Jeff





------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 01:46:12 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: remove


>Sorry - didn't realise that it was coming from list@catseye.mb.ca ... just
>thought it was going straight to my email address and i was attempting to
>get my email removed from their list.  wasn't trying to unsubscribe from the
>catseye list or trying to unsubscribe the catseye list from the spam list.

Even so, purveyors of spam are insidious.  There's a good reason why they 
want you to "remove" yourself--it proves to them that your e-mail address 
is legitimate.  That means that even if they stop sending you that 
particular piece of spam, they can add your address to the "valid" list and 
sell it to even more assh^H^H^H^Hhonest business people.

Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:09:38 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] interpreter sizes


By the way, this size-data is very interesting. It does show that even the
simplest things can be coded very differently.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2001, Jeffry Johnston wrote:

> Most webpages BF description of []:
> [  if the value at the pointer is 0 then jump past matching ]
> ]  always jump back to matching [
>
> One(that I know of) webpage's BF description of []:
> [  if the value at the pointer is 0 then jump past matching ]
> ]  if the value at the pointer is NOT 0 then jump back to matching [

My description of [] for specification:

[ ... ] on encountering, loop the code inside [ and ] until the value at
the current cell is 0 when IP is on the loop boundary

My description of [] for programming:

[  if the value at the pointer == 0 then jump past matching ]
	else push the IP
]  pop the IP

I still think it's both more efficient and easier to make bug-free to
calculate the respective offsets / addresses for each [ and ].

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 04:11:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.



On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Daniel. wrote:

> Then we have all the issues about program counter strategy: do they 
> all do the same thing (or all but the nonexecuting predator ones), or 
> do different ones have different strategies--can a command change the 
> counter's strategy--how does the strategy change with the value of 
> the counter's integer--in general how context-sensitive is it and 
> what kinds of sensors should we give it--etc. etc.

I move for several different types of PC.  Besides your "destructor" type,
you could have at the very least "variable" and "operator" bots.  The
variable bots pick up numerical or character data, and the operator bots
would be omniverous, feeding on operators and variable bots, then 
excreting values.

Sensors--I think sight should do, give each species a field and range of
vision, something like:
                       \     /
                        \   /
                         \ /
                          R
Prey should have better vision, and probably be faster.  If the bot senses
anything within this field, it should have a user-definable list of
prioritized actions, i.e.:
1 if (object)==(predator) [right 90, forward 5]
2 if (object)==(wall) [right 90]

Or if you _really_ want to get wierd, give each species a trainable neural
net, and have a learning mode.  Of course you then practically abandon
TC-ness...





------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:28:46 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Daniel. wrote:

> the walls constrain them. So I thought--how about a language in which
> they follow their own agendas, seeking food and avoiding predators?

Hopefully in an easy enough to predict manner. I really wouldn't throw
any of my time to an attempt to program a "Hello World!" with humans, for
example... :)

I think what would make the programming language _really_ interesting is
if the IP's had to breed to accomplish anything worthwhile. Like
communications between them would only work by breeding a datum and
letting another IP devour it.

> complex. Maybe it would be sufficient to associate an integer with
> each program counter, besides its location--in fact, maybe maximizing
> the size of that integer should be one of the counters' goals? We

I think the "one datum per IP" approach is good, except that I'm not so
sure whether an integer is a good choice. Maybe a reference, or a symbol?
Or even a symbolic type? Church tried to build logic on symbolic types...
:)

> do different ones have different strategies--can a command change the
> counter's strategy--how does the strategy change with the value of

That's a "stateful strategy". As noted in the data-vs-self-mod discussion,
self-modification can always be simulated by strong enough data models.
So probably the IP's should have built-in, stateful, prioritised rules.

Oh, by the way - there is another important way for the IP's to interact,
which is the worbian (brownian) way of bouncing to each other. That should
be sufficient to build complex programs. :)

Panu






------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:46:10 -0300

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 00:45:29 -0800
From: changeness4ubby2222@msn.com
To: <Undisclosed.Recipients@kiln.isn.net>
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Reply to: list@catseye.mb.ca

	That's the mailserver that *I* use... odd.

-- 
Steve

Analogy is like a similie, but more like a metaphor.


------------------------------

From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: [.:][PyVM]
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 18:14:30 +0100

A small .: update now enables the following constructs

eiffelturm
if-then. The first subdirectory is the if-condition.

niemals!
until-do.The first subdirectory is the until-condition.

seltsam
if-then-else. The first subdirectory is the if-condition, the last
subdirectory the else-statement.

sonderbar
if-then-unless. The first subdirectory is the if-condition, the last
subdirectory the unless-statement.

sinnlos
if-then-provided. The first subdirectory is the if-condition, the last
subdirectory the provided-statement.

nutzlos
while-do-unless. The first subdirectory is the if-condition, the last
subdirectory the unless-statement.

I have finally found a way of how to add self-modification to .: - the
instructions will modify BOTH the directory structure and the internal code
representation, so I don't need to parse the whole code again.

----------------------------------------------
I hacked a Motorola 680x0 simulator in Python. The results are here:
http://www.p-nand-q.com/python/pvm.py Its by no means complete - it has
about 15 instructions or so implemented - but it works (standard test:
fibonacci numbers, see http://www.p-nand-q.com/python/test.asm), and is so
easy to understand its very simple to expand. Don't think I'll be able 2
continue to work on this in the next weeks, though.

---------------------------------------------
PS: Down with functions that use EXCEPTIONS as return codes. May they all be
thrown away.



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:03:31 +0200
From: Bertram Felgenhauer <bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de>
Subject: [lang] [bf] compiler for MS-DOS (was: Re: Re: [bf])

<delurk>

Hi everyone,

Jeffry Johnston wrote:
> I am *REALLY* hoping for someone to show me up here!  This record can't
> stand.  123 bytes is huge!  Pull out that dusty ASM manual and start coding!

Hmm, my own one is 136 bytes, but it implements a 16 bit version of BF
and handles CR/LF <-> LF conversion (not fully correct, it has problems
with bare CRs, but implementing that would make the code a lot larger)

  (you can find it at http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/bfc/)

Basically it was an attempt to write a compiler complying to the
rules of the competition at

  http://www.hugi.de/compo/compoold.htm#compo6

where the task was to write a small interpreter (again, for a 16 bit
version of BF and with handling of CR/LF); the winning entries were
97 (+3 penalty for not complying to one rule) and 98 bytes ...

Seems I can't find your 123 bytes compiler right now ... would you
mind mailing it to me again?

Bertram

-- 
     `.oo'
  ,.  (`-'
 '^\`-' )     Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes
    c-L'-     an annual free trip around the Sun.




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:49:31 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lang] Re: Idea for a wild new breed of fungeoid.


>I think what would make the programming language _really_ interesting is
>if the IP's had to breed to accomplish anything worthwhile. Like
>communications between them would only work by breeding a datum and
>letting another IP devour it.

A la Neal Stephenson's _Diamond Age_. :-)
Cliff Biffle





------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 20:44:58 +0200
From: Bertram Felgenhauer <bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de>
Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] compiler for MS-DOS

Hi,

I wrote:
> Seems I can't find your 123 bytes compiler right now ... would you
> mind mailing it to me again?

Never mind, I found it ...

As I understand it, it has a few problems though if the BF program
contains '!', '$' or a few other non-ASCII characters (which match
part of your generated code).

BTW, where does that convention of using '@' as an EOF-marker
come from?  The readme from brainf-ck-2.lha does not mention it...

Bertram

-- 
     `.oo'
  ,.  (`-'
 '^\`-' )     Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes
    c-L'-     an annual free trip around the Sun.




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 20:08:19 +0000 (UTC)
From: Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!

On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Steve Mosher wrote:

> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 00:45:29 -0800
> From: changeness4ubby2222@msn.com
> To: <Undisclosed.Recipients@kiln.isn.net>
>                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Reply to: list@catseye.mb.ca
> 
> 	That's the mailserver that *I* use... odd.

The copy I received, using qmail, had

To: <Undisclosed Recipients>

Your mail system modified the copy you received.

-- 
Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:09:49 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: remove

>Sorry - didn't realise that it was coming from list@catseye.mb.ca ... just
>thought it was going straight to my email address and i was attempting to
>get my email removed from their list.

As I think someone mentioned, when they say "if you want to be 
removed, just send us mail and ask us", that's a filthy lie. Really 
what they do is mark your address down as one that someone is 
actually checking, so it's more valuable to them and you end up 
getting even more mail. Remember, if these people had any sense of 
honor they wouldn't be sending unsolicited emails advertising for 
porno sites and pyramid scams in the first place. If I remember 
properly, that disclaimer they put at the bottom about being 
protected by some federal law if they meet certain rules is a lie too.
The real solution, of course, is to prohibit gullible people from 
using the net. Then their entire market would dry up and they'd give 
up sending the stuff out. Unfortunately this would probably be 
Unconstitutional and also Hard To Enforce.
-Daniel.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:06:43 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeff  Johnston <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] compiler for MS-DOS



On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote:
> Never mind, I found it ...
>
> As I understand it, it has a few problems though if the BF program
> contains '!', '$' or a few other non-ASCII characters (which match
> part of your generated code).

Yep, that's true.  I'm not sure what the rules of your BF contest were,
but for valid code it should be no problem.  It's true that it doesn't
completely match his original compiler.. but then it doesn't output a
65536 byte file either, so I'm ok with that fact :)

> BTW, where does that convention of using '@' as an EOF-marker
> come from?  The readme from brainf-ck-2.lha does not mention it...

The "@" was the only way I could figure out how to know when STDIN was
EOF.  I was having a lot of trouble finding info on STDIN.. I had
to experiment to even figure out which handle MS-DOS used for stdin/out.
I suppose the "@" could be changed to a DB 1Ah (EOF char), but unless
you're using EDLIN, most text editors don't tack it on anymore.

So, simple answer, I made it up.. just seemed like a good symbol for it :)

Here's some history if you're interested:

I first used the "@" symbol to mean exit in a predecessor to Numberix
called Street (a 2 dimensional language I made up July 15, 2000).  In the
newer language Numberix (July 30, 2000) I gave up the character symbols
completely in favor of Hex digits.  At the time, I had no knowledge of
Befunge.  I felt a little embarrased after I discovered Befunge because
Numberix really does seem like a ripoff of Befunge.  I really got the 2
dimensional idea on my own then when I saw Wierd (which is from Befunge I
later discovered) I knew I had to use it.

I think the first invented language I came up with was for the 'Jeff88'
CPU (Pretty creative name, huh? ;)  I wanted to write my own assembler,
this was back in March of 1996 (my dad had given me some programming books
and one scribed the Grape 80, an imaginary CPU).  I was getting pretty
comfortable writing 8088 asm TSR's so I thought it would be fun.  I wrote
a couple programs to make sure it worked then I realized how slow it was.

It wasn't until a co-worker showed me the Intercal source to "Hello World"
that I really got into it more, and of course BrainF*** was the second
language I came across, around early July of last year.  Immediately I was
drawn to BF and away from Intercal.  And my life will never be the same :P

Jeff

BTW, if you check the dejanews archives back in May '96, you'll see I was
already stirring up trouble.  I began a contest to see who could make the
smallest program that would exit, using only ascii characters in the
assembled COM.  Mine was pretty large, 28 bytes or something like that,
but two people got it down to an amazing 8 bytes, here they are:

,]P^0Dd`  and  'PP^0DWs

Try it out.  I modified the program a little bit like this so I could put
it in my ASM source and would print a message if I accidentally DEBUG'd
and ran the source instead of the code:

; ,]P^0Dw0Dy5{!P/5e PZX5'(n!`Hello World!$

Was that off topic? <=K


>
> Bertram
>
> --
>      `.oo'
>   ,.  (`-'
>  '^\`-' )     Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes
>     c-L'-     an annual free trip around the Sun.
>
>





------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:37:30 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!

*taps microphone* is this thing still on?

Bizarre... I thought it would have broken on the weekend when all the
e-mail was switched over.

Of course, everything that the new system doesn't understand (like...
this list) is forwarded to the old hardware.  But how long that will
still be there, I don't know.

Oh well... still struggling along until the real smack in the head comes
along.  Still scaring people over to misc or lang instead (BOO!)... 
Still tuning my hammer diligently so it can eventually produce a true
B#...

I recently discovered that my cat has musical ability.  Both a sense of
rhythm and a sense of phrasing.  She really likes Our Lady Peace.  I'm
not kidding, she jams along with her tail.  She speeds it up to stay on
the beat and slows it down to, um, improvise along with it.

_chris

-- 
"Tautology is tautology, dammit!"
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

From: "Jeffry Johnston" <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [lang] [announce] [long] Hanoi Love
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 01:35:00 -0700

I'd love to hear any comments, etc :)
Thanks,
Jeff


Hanoi Love -- A slim stack based language
Written April 30, 2001, by Jeffry Johnston

Description
------------
Hanoi Love was created as a minimal yet semi-powerful stack based language.
The name comes from the "Towers of Hanoi" game.

Special Thanks to Cliff Biffle for the inspiration that I received from his
Spaz stack language.  Also to Urban Mueller for BrainF***.


Instruction Set
---------------
There are 8 instructions:

.       Selects the next stack in alphabetic sequence (will loop to stack
A).
'       Copies the byte in the register and pushes it onto the stack.
,       Pops a byte from the stack and moves it into the register.
;       Pops a byte from the stack and adds it to the register.
`       Pops a byte from the stack and subtracts it from the register.
"       I/O mode prefix.  The next instruction will pop from the Standard
        Input or push to the Standard Output rather than to a stack.
:       If the register is 0 then any following instructions are skipped
        until matching "!" instruction is reached.
!       Does nothing if matching a ":", otherwise exits the program.


Memory and Program flow
-----------------------
The register and stack locations A, B, and C are 8 bits wide.  Stack
location D should be sized wide enough to store the location of any part of
the program for later recall.

Each instruction line is processed in the normal left to right fashion.
The instruction pointer starts to the left of the first instruction.  A loop
is formed:  The instruction pointer is incremented.  Then the current
instruction is executed.  This process repeats until the "!" instruction
is reached or there are no more instructions to execute.


Register
--------
There is one internal register used for temporary storage to permit
operations between stacks.  This is initially set to the value 0.


Stacks
------
There are 4 main stacks (A, B, C, D).  They are all initially empty and
their
size is limited only by the amount of available memory.  If a stack is
empty when asked to pop a value, the value returned will be 1 for A, 0 for B
and C (D never returns a value).

Stacks A, B, and C are for general program use.  The program is first set to
use stack A.

Stack D is for storing the location of instructions.  When a push operation
is performed here, the previous instruction location (current location minus
one) is pushed onto the stack.  When a pop operation is performed the new
instruction location is popped from the stack.  If a ";" or "`" instruction
is performed on this stack then the instruction location is popped, but no
further action is taken (this is useful for breaking out of loops).


Example Program
---------------
Echo: (Outputs back any input received.  Enter char 255 to end)
...'.,'";:`"'...,!


Hanoi Love is BF complete
-------------------------
These sequences are long because they don't assume anything.  They are
written for a 1:1 translation.  So, don't let this fool you!  Hanoi Love
code
can be a lot smaller and faster than when emulating BF.

>       ..,...'...
<       .,.'..
+       ,.;'...
-       .,...`.'...
.       .,'"'...
,       .,",'...
[       ...'..,'...:
]       ...,!...;.


Quick and dirty BF -> Hanoi Love translation program
----------------------------------------------------
F$ = "prime"
DIM B$(1 TO 8)
FOR A = 1 TO 8: READ B$(A): B = INSTR(1, B$(A), "@")
  IF B > 0 THEN MID$(B$(A), B, 1) = CHR$(34)
NEXT A
OPEN F$ + ".BF" FOR BINARY AS #1: A$ = INPUT$(LOF(1), 1): CLOSE #1
OPEN F$ + ".HL" FOR OUTPUT AS #1
FOR A = 1 TO LEN(A$)
  B = INSTR(1, "><+-.,[]", MID$(A$, A, 1)): IF B > 0 THEN PRINT #1, B$(B);
NEXT A
CLOSE #1: END
DATA "..,...'...",".,.'..",",.;'...",".,...`.'..."
DATA ".,'@'...",".,@,'...","...'..,'...:","...,!...;."


QuickBasic interpreter
----------------------
'Hanoi Love interpreter
'Programmed by Jeffry Johnston, April 30, 2001.
'See hanoi.txt for documentation

DEFINT A-Z: LOCATE , , 1: CLS
DIM ABC$(2): DIM D(100, 1): IP = 0: SS = 0: R = 0: IO = 0: SP = -1: IFF = 0
FILE$ = COMMAND$
DO WHILE FILE$ = "": INPUT "Please enter the source filename: ", FILE$: LOOP
OPEN FILE$ FOR BINARY AS #1: PROGRAM$ = INPUT$(LOF(1), 1): CLOSE #1
'PROGRAM$ = "...'.,'" + CHR$(34) + ";:`" + CHR$(34) + "'...,!"
L = LEN(PROGRAM$)
OPEN "CONS:" FOR OUTPUT AS #1
DO
  IP = IP + 1: IPVALUE$ = MID$(PROGRAM$, IP, 1)
  'PRINT #1, IPVALUE$; "IP="; IP; "SS="; SS; "SP="; SP; "IFF="; IFF; "R=";
R: COLOR 7: DO: LOOP WHILE INKEY$ = ""
  SELECT CASE IPVALUE$
  CASE "."
    SS = SS + 1: IF SS > 3 THEN SS = 0
  CASE "'" '^
    IF SS = 3 THEN
      SP = SP + 1: D(SP, 0) = IP - 1: D(SP, 1) = IFF
    ELSE
      IF IO = 1 THEN PRINT #1, CHR$(R);  ELSE ABC$(SS) = ABC$(SS) + CHR$(R)
    END IF
  CASE "," 'v
    IF SS = 3 THEN
      IF SP >= 0 THEN
        IP = D(SP, 0): IFF = D(SP, 1): SP = SP - 1
      ELSE
        IP = 0: IFF = 0
      END IF
    ELSE
      IF IO = 1 THEN
        R = ASC(INPUT$(1))
      ELSE
        IF LEN(ABC$(SS)) = 0 THEN
          IF SS = 0 THEN R = 1 ELSE R = 0
        ELSE
          R = ASC(MID$(ABC$(SS), LEN(ABC$(SS)), 1))
          ABC$(SS) = MID$(ABC$(SS), 1, LEN(ABC$(SS)) - 1)
        END IF
      END IF
    END IF
  CASE ";" '+
    IF SS = 3 THEN
      IF SP >= 0 THEN SP = SP - 1
    ELSE
      IF IO = 1 THEN
        R = (R + ASC(INPUT$(1))) MOD 256
      ELSE
        IF LEN(ABC$(SS)) = 0 THEN
          IF SS = 0 THEN R = (R + 1) MOD 256
        ELSE
          R = (R + ASC(MID$(ABC$(SS), LEN(ABC$(SS)), 1))) MOD 256
          ABC$(SS) = MID$(ABC$(SS), 1, LEN(ABC$(SS)) - 1)
        END IF
      END IF
    END IF
  CASE "`" '-
    IF SS = 3 THEN
      IF SP >= 0 THEN SP = SP - 1
    ELSE
      IF IO = 1 THEN
        R = (256 + R - ASC(INPUT$(1))) MOD 256
      ELSE
        IF LEN(ABC$(SS)) = 0 THEN
          IF SS = 0 THEN R = (R + 255) MOD 256
        ELSE
          R = (256 + R - ASC(MID$(ABC$(SS), LEN(ABC$(SS)), 1))) MOD 256
          ABC$(SS) = MID$(ABC$(SS), 1, LEN(ABC$(SS)) - 1)
        END IF
      END IF
    END IF
  CASE CHR$(34)
    IO = 2
  CASE ":"
    IF R = 0 THEN
      LVL = 1
      DO
        IP = IP + 1: IPVALUE$ = MID$(PROGRAM$, IP, 1)
        IF IPVALUE$ = ":" THEN LVL = LVL + 1
        IF IPVALUE$ = "!" THEN LVL = LVL - 1
      LOOP WHILE LVL > 0
    ELSE
      IFF = IFF + 1
    END IF
  CASE "!"
    IF IFF = 0 THEN EXIT DO ELSE IFF = IFF - 1
  END SELECT
  IF IO > 0 THEN IO = IO - 1
LOOP WHILE IP < L





------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 09:35:25 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: [Personal] Job hunt successful

Well, since I felt compelled to tell you all that I was out of work
in the first place, it seems reasonable to tell you all that I now 
have a job.

I start at Blue Planet Software in downtown San Francisco next 
Monday. It's a total of 3 BART (=subway/metro) stops and 6 blocks
from my house. The morning walk will probably do me a lot of good.
Blue Planet is a game development studio; as it happens, they hold
the Tetris license.

-RB


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 09:37:03 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: [SETI Puzzle] How we doin'? (no spoilers)

Is anyone still working on the puzzle? Is anyone ready for the fifth
message? Have the spoiler complaints discouraged everyone from public
discussion of the puzzle? Anyone stuck and want a private hint? 
Anyone want more coffee? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

-RB


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:34:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [SETI Puzzle] How we doin'? (no spoilers)

I'm guessing finals took a lot out of those people who have them.  I
was on it, but got sidetracked.  Maybe I'll burn some time on it,
today.

And congratulations on the job!

On Tue, 1 May 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:

> Is anyone still working on the puzzle? Is anyone ready for the fifth
> message? Have the spoiler complaints discouraged everyone from public
> discussion of the puzzle? Anyone stuck and want a private hint? 
> Anyone want more coffee? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
> 
> -RB
> 
> 
> 



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 13:58:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: [SETI Message #3] Further notes

OK, I think I finally hacked through the first chunk.

As mentioned, the first few lines describe trigonometric constants and
help us to define the basic trig functions.

Following this, we have the following "discussion":
- "p = 0", followed by a hexmap of a dot.
- "p = 1", followed by a hexmap of a radius-1 circle.
- "p = 2", followed by a hexmap of a radius-2 circle.
- "p = 3 AND q = 0 AND r = 108", followed by a radius-2 semi-circle.
Conclusion:
	- p is the "canonical radius"
	- q and r are angles representing ends of an arc.
	- The AND operation is not arithmetic in nature--it is not
	  "outsides equal the inside," but just a statement.

We then follow this with the radius-3 circles drawn as hexmap and
square-bitmap.

We follow this with a definition of equalities, and a description of
either exponents or logarithms--I'm leaning toward the former, since
the exponent is in the very center.

After this comes what may be a solar system diagram, showing a star, a
tiny planet, two medium-sized planets, and three larger planets.
Assuming it is a solar system, it is not ours, since Mars should be
much smaller.  This may also be counting, I suppose ("one small, two
medium, three large" suggests a rather obvious progression, ignoring
the "star"), but that doesn't seem very likely, since we've already had
two counting methods.

This is then followed by...some strange things.  In each of the set of
seven lines, some...I guess it's a function...is equated to a disc of a
particular radius, ranging between zero (a point) and two, including
halves.  Specifically, 2, 0, 1/2, 1, 0, 1/2, and 1.

I'd say that these were "shorthand" for circles, and my first impulse
would be to try to match these up to the "planets," but first, they
don't match, and second, several of the "designations" are identical
for different discs.  The following, for example, appears to be the
case:
- xzx = Disc, radius of 2
- wyw = Disc, radius of 0
- zyz = Disc, radius of 1/2
- zyz = Disc, radius of 1
- 1y1 = Disc, radius of 0
- 1y1 = Disc, radius of 1/2
- 1y1 = Disc, radius of 1
I'm not quite sure what to make of all that, since "1y1"--whatever that
may be--shouldn't be equal to 0, 1/2, *and* 1.

This appears to be followed by six results which use these newly-
defined operations in new ways.  Darned if I know what any of it means,
though, unfortunately.

And finally, we equate the '0' symbol to a hexmap image that appears to
be a primitive rendering of DaVinci's famous diagram of a man's range
of motion (which I'm sure has a name, but I've forgotten it).  I assume
that this is a crude picture of the sender of the message.  Further
assuming this to be accurate, they would appear to have six appendages
(which makes sense, kind of), and possible antennae.  Presumably, the
'0' is to be the designation of their race.

That's about it at this point.  I'm admittedly a bit baffled on that
final section of equalities and results, which is unfortunate, since
they're kind of a major part of the message...



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 11:14:03 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: [lisp]

For anyone who doesn't read Slashdot religiously, there's a great article 
up there today about how the company that eventually became Yahoo! Stores 
used a secret weapon to write faster, more powerful web applications than 
their competitors--and that weapon was Lisp. :-)

http://www.paulgraham.com/paulgraham/avg.html
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 20:23:10 +0200
From: Bertram Felgenhauer <bf3@mail.inf.tu-dresden.de>
Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] compiler for MS-DOS

Jeff Johnston wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote:
> > Never mind, I found it ...
> >
> > As I understand it, it has a few problems though if the BF program
> > contains '!', '$' or a few other non-ASCII characters (which match
> > part of your generated code).
> 
> Yep, that's true.  I'm not sure what the rules of your BF contest were,

They are included in that source pack there.

> but for valid code it should be no problem.  It's true that it doesn't

Well, Urban Mueller's readme says this,
>>>
THE LANGUAGE
============

The language 'brainfuck' knows the following commands:

 Cmd  Effect                                 Equivalent in C
 ---  ------                                 ---------------
 +    Increases element under pointer        array[p]++;
 -    Decrases element under pointer         array[p]--;
 >    Increases pointer                      p++;
 <    Decreases pointer                      p--;
 [    Starts loop, counter under pointer     while(array[p]) {
 ]    Indicates end of loop                  }
 .    Outputs ASCII code under pointer       putchar(array[p]);
 ,    Reads char and stores ASCII under ptr  array[p]=getchar();

All other characters are ignored. The 30000 array elements and p are being
initialized to zero at the beginning.  Now while this seems to be a pretty
useless language, it can be proven that it can compute every solvable
mathematical problem (if we ignore the array size limit and the executable
size limit).
<<<
which implies that those characters are allowed in (valid) BF programs ...

BTW, the main reason for considering a 16 bit version of brainfuck
was simply that an 8 bit version can not distinguish between an
input of 255 and EOF, so I felt a somewhat bigger data type was
needed.

> > BTW, where does that convention of using '@' as an EOF-marker
> > come from?  The readme from brainf-ck-2.lha does not mention it...
> 
> The "@" was the only way I could figure out how to know when STDIN was
> EOF.  I was having a lot of trouble finding info on STDIN.. I had

With DOS function 08 it's not possible to detect this ... you can
use function 06 with DL=0FFh or function 3Fh (with bx=0) though.

> to experiment to even figure out which handle MS-DOS used for stdin/out.

0 for stdin, 1 for stdout and 2 for stderr ... as usual.

> ,]P^0Dd`  and  'PP^0DWs

Nice.

> Was that off topic? <=K

Maybe ...

ObLang:
I made an attempt to make a rot13 filter in brainfuck which fits into 2
lines, but right now the program is still 33 characters too long, and
I somehow doubt I'll be able to come up with a much shorter version:

,+[-->++++[>++++++++<-]<[->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<]>>[-]>>
--[-[>-<[-]]]>+[-<+++++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[
-]>[-]+>[<-->-[<+>-]]<[<<<<+++++++++++++>>>>-]]<<[-]<<+.[-]<,+]

Bertram

-- 
     `.oo'
  ,.  (`-'
 '^\`-' )     Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes
    c-L'-     an annual free trip around the Sun.




------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:10:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: [SETI Message #4] First Notes

OK, the third message was giving me a headache, so I decided to move to
the fourth.

I probably should have stayed back at the third, however, we do have
one breakthrough, at least:  scientific notation.  We have a bunch of
examples, and then:
	QXQLQX#Y#XQLQBAB5Y5BABQ
which boils down to:
	X * 10^Y = X#Y#X
where X and Y are typical variables, since the second message or so.

We also, I believe, define the '@' symbol to be the diameter of a
hexmap.  It tells us that, given three hexmaps, each of which is a
different-sized line through the center, that hexmap is equal to 1, 3,
and 5, for radius-0, radius-1, and radius-2.

I'm finding the sections before and after to be mostly opaque.  We're
told that the diameter of the person diagram (again, at least that's my
theory right now) is--and I quote:
	!@!QBEBQ!@!
Removing the redundant symmetry, that means that our friend's diameter
is some function (!@!) of ten.

Hm...It looks like the '!' symbol is some kind of delimeter or
modifier, and always indicates a single symbol--so far, only Q, @, $,
and %.  Q is familiar to us, now, as a numerical delimeter, of course,
and !Q! is apparently equal to 1.  That, unfortunately, doesn't mean
much to me.

Oh--and the '*' symbol is apparently equal to some function (!$!) of
4,217,142,858(decimal), for what it's worth...



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 13:26:42 -0700
From: "Cliff L. Biffle" <cbiffle@safety.net>
Subject: Re: [SETI Message #4] First Notes


>I probably should have stayed back at the third, however, we do have
>one breakthrough, at least:  scientific notation.  We have a bunch of
>examples, and then:
>         QXQLQX#Y#XQLQBAB5Y5BABQ
>which boils down to:
>         X * 10^Y = X#Y#X
>where X and Y are typical variables, since the second message or so.

Why would they be using 10?
Cliff Biffle



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 16:26:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Colagioia <jcolag@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: [SETI Message #4] First Notes

On Tue, 1 May 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:
> >I probably should have stayed back at the third, however, we do have
> >one breakthrough, at least:  scientific notation.  We have a bunch of
> >examples, and then:
> >         QXQLQX#Y#XQLQBAB5Y5BABQ
> >which boils down to:
> >         X * 10^Y = X#Y#X
> >where X and Y are typical variables, since the second message or so.
> Why would they be using 10?

10 base-6, which is 6 base-10.  Sorry about that.



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:05:10 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] [long] Hanoi Love

On Tue, 1 May 2001, Jeffry Johnston wrote:

> "       I/O mode prefix.  The next instruction will pop from the Standard
>         Input or push to the Standard Output rather than to a stack.

Nice thingy.

> !       Does nothing if matching a ":", otherwise exits the program.

Another nice one.

>  If a stack is empty when asked to pop a value, the value returned
> will be 1 for A, 0 for B and C (D never returns a value).

This is a funny one. The only way to get a non-zero value is to pop it
from A... probably means that stack A should almost always be kept empty.

Of course, two stacks is well enough for everything. I think every stack
operation can be implemented with drop, dig, pop, push and two stacks. At
least drop, pick(n) and swap(n) suffice.

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 02:47:54 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] compiler for MS-DOS

><<<
>which implies that those characters are allowed in (valid) BF programs ...

Definitely.

>BTW, the main reason for considering a 16 bit version of brainfuck
>was simply that an 8 bit version can not distinguish between an
>input of 255 and EOF, so I felt a somewhat bigger data type was
>needed.

In Panu Kalliokoski's implementation, EOF is translated to a zero. To 
quote the documentation:

One useful feature has been added: `,' will set the location to zero 
on EOF. This should be an acceptable aid, because the value of EOF 
depends on the environment and testing for EOF in programs would make 
them unportable.

This seems like a good idea to me. Among other things, it simplifies 
the brainfuck code to test for EOF.

>I made an attempt to make a rot13 filter in brainfuck which fits into 2
>lines, but right now the program is still 33 characters too long, and
>I somehow doubt I'll be able to come up with a much shorter version:

Nice. I have it partly figured out. Don't know if you've seen the 
rot13 page to which I was referred recently:

http://ucsub.colorado.edu/~kominek/rot13/

The page currently has two brainfuck rot13s: one eight lines long, 
and mine which is eleven (in compressed format), but very simple and 
generalizeable.
-Daniel.




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:43:01 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [sci] [models] the null theory


In modern mathematics and logic, a theory is usually described as a set o=
f
/terms/ (every possible clause permitted by the syntax used by that
theory), and a subset of that, those terms that are /theorems/ of the
theory.

Usually the latter one is described in a dual manner(1): the set of
/axioms/, which are terms that are given as presuppositions, and the set
of /rules/, which define the transformations under which valid terms
(theorems) can be derived from other valid terms. Especially every theory
that has an infinite number of theorems is defined this way (or something
similar):  intensionally, rather than by enumeration.

Probably the purest null theory is that which has no terms, no axioms and
no rules. This pure null theory is not a consistent one (inconsistent
theories are characterised by whether the theory has, as theorems, every
one of its terms(2), and this is always true for a empty set of terms).
However, it is finite and enumerable.

Another interesting null theory is that which has no axioms nor rules but
includes any other set of terms than the null set (which are equal,
concerning the theory, because the theory gives no way to relate the term=
s
to each other anyway). These theories are interesting in that they are
consistent, finite and enumerable; in practice, they are valid theories
for anything. So every abstract (possibly semantic) branch of science
should be aware that there is always a null theory for the branch(3).

Then, on an almost totally unrelated notice, has anybody here really read
and understood the incompleteness principle of G=F6del, and if so, could
s/he give a pointer to or reproduce a compact but complete description of
it?

Panu

(1) Theories may have null sets of axioms. Any axiom can always be
described as a rule, thus making it hop one meta-level. Because meta-leve=
l
descriptions are often considered as "necessary evil", basic theories ten=
d
to formulate as axioms as much as possible. Theories that have null sets
of rules are never infinite, and have as theorems only their axioms.

(2) Other formulations do exist, but most are insufficient for our
purposes here.

(3) Possibly many. Of course, what makes the null theories valuable is
that they probably match somebody's intuition on the matter.

Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh
atehwa@iki.fi






------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:49:11 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: Brainf*ck][Long] dbc.c: a new brainfuck compiler for Sun ma

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Daniel. wrote:

> /*So I finally got it finished(?), if anyone cares. And for all its directness,
> the speed of the resulting executables seems to be roughly 1.5 to 2 times that
> of Panu's fed through gcc -O3. Of course this comes at a murderous price in
> portability. Still, it was fun. If anyone wants to put this on his brainfuck
> website or something, go right ahead.
> -Daniel.*/

I guess the difference is mostly caused by the use of registers (though I
have difficulties reading the code, I'm not familiar with SPARC
assembler). Maybe I should implement array naming so that most operations
could use registers to their calculations.

Panu





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 14:51:34 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: [lang] Re: Brainf*ck][Long] dbc.c: a new brainfuck compiler for Sun 

Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Daniel. wrote:
> 
> > /*So I finally got it finished(?), if anyone cares. And for all its directness,
> > the speed of the resulting executables seems to be roughly 1.5 to 2 times that
> > of Panu's fed through gcc -O3. Of course this comes at a murderous price in
> > portability. Still, it was fun. If anyone wants to put this on his brainfuck
> > website or something, go right ahead.
> > -Daniel.*/
> 
> I guess the difference is mostly caused by the use of registers 

But it may also be due to the choice of benchmark programs.

Frederic vdP





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:13:49 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: [sci] Re: [models] the null theory

Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> Then, on an almost totally unrelated notice, has anybody here reall=
y read
> and understood the incompleteness principle of G=F6del, and if so, =
could
> s/he give a pointer to or reproduce a compact but complete descript=
ion of
> it?

I haven't read it in G=F6del's words (even translated), but my=20
understanding of it comes from Hofstadter's _Godel, Escher, Bach_.=
=20
It goes deep into the hows and whys, but I obviously don't know if=
=20
it's suffered serious damage in being made readable.

-R





------------------------------

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:52:02 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Brainf*ck][Long] dbc.c: a new brainfuck compiler for

>  > /*So I finally got it finished(?), if anyone cares. And for all 
>its directness,
>>  the speed of the resulting executables seems to be roughly 1.5 to 
>>2 times that
>>  of Panu's fed through gcc -O3. Of course this comes at a murderous price in
>>  portability. Still, it was fun. If anyone wants to put this on his brainfuck
>>  website or something, go right ahead.
>>  -Daniel.*/
>
>I guess the difference is mostly caused by the use of registers (though I
>have difficulties reading the code, I'm not familiar with SPARC
>assembler). Maybe I should implement array naming so that most operations
>could use registers to their calculations.

Hmm. The only things I've put in registers are the pointer, the cell 
currently pointed to (sometimes), and some parameters for i/o...I may 
try comparing some typical code to see where the differences are. 
Probably not this week though--it'll take some doing and I'm a bit 
busy.
-Daniel.




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:45:23 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Brainf*ck][Long] dbc.c: a new brainfuck compiler for

>  > I guess the difference is mostly caused by the use of registers
>
>But it may also be due to the choice of benchmark programs.

<shrug> maybe. "Benchmark" is overstating it--I just compared the 
times for prime.b and for my fibonacci program. Since you're 
interested, I'll undertake a more extensive series of comparisons. In 
fact I'll just test all the brainfuck code I can get my hands on. (If 
anyone has suggestions, let me know.) I'll use time(1), input from 
files and output to /dev/null. Again, I'll run the output of Panu's 
compiler through gcc -O3 (any other options I should use?) I'll run 
each test twice, and post the results in full to the list. If anyone 
has any suggestions on proper procedure I'll be happy to entertain 
them.
-Daniel.
PS. This reminds me. It doesn't appear that anyone has established a 
central repository for brainfuck programs. I have no idea whether 
there are twenty of them in existence or a thousand. It seems like it 
would be a useful thing to have.




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:09:02 -0700
From: Brian Raiter <breadbox@muppetlabs.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: Brainf*ck][Long] dbc.c: a new brainfuck compiler for

> PS. This reminds me. It doesn't appear that anyone has established a
> central repository for brainfuck programs. I have no idea whether
> there are twenty of them in existence or a thousand. It seems like
> it would be a useful thing to have.

Heh. For a while, I think the catseye page was the central
repository. At least, when I first put up my brainfuck web page, my
BF programs were the only ones I knew of that weren't on catseye.
That's certainly changed since then.

b




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 23:12:31 +0200 (CEST)
From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl)
Subject: [lang] Re: [Lisp]

Hi,

sorry about not replying directly to the thread... I somehow
managed to lose it.

I'd say more people are aware of (Common) Lisp than you'd think.
At least many people had a look at it.

The thing about Lisp that makes it uninteresting to me is that
it has a long history and won't be changed anymore. It's practically
been through it all and is finished... nothing there to do anymore.

Common Lisp is definitely a great language for production, as it offers
a rich library and allows a lot of things to be done a lot easier than
in C++ or any other language.

I prefer newer languages that aren't really standardized or are still
being developed, such as Ocaml.

On the other hand, I do use Lisp every-so-often as in Emacs Lisp, which
admittedly, though, does differ from Common Lisp in many ways as it's
derived from the older Mac Lisp.

I'm not sure if Lisp makes you a better programmer or is enlightening
in any way. Many people say Lisp allows you to program in any style
you want (i.e. functional, imperative, etc.), well I'm not so sure 
about it... it all comes down to "the Lisp way". That "Lisp way" seems
to be the style, which in my opinion is kind of like the "solve the
problem" style.

As a thread on comp.lang.functional mentioned a while ago, Scheme
is more interesting to computer scientists. Lisp is "applied technology".

Oh well, just my opinion...
Markus Kliegl





------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:43:35 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [History] OK, now *that's* something I wasn't aware of

See Alan run!
Run, Alan!  Run!

  http://www.turing.org.uk/turing/scrapbook/run.html

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:52:25 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: [History] OK, now *that's* something I wasn't aware of

Oh, I just read _Alan Turing: The Enigma_, a biography by Andrew 
Hodges, very recently. If you're interested in Turing as a person,
it's well worth it. I was somewhat surprised to realize that Neal 
Stephenson's portrayal of Turing in _Cryptonomicon_ was much more 
accurate than I had assumed. That's assuming that Hodges' portrayal 
was accurate, of course, but it's thoroughly researched at least. :) 

-RB 

Chris Pressey wrote:
> 
> See Alan run!
> Run, Alan!  Run!
> 
>   http://www.turing.org.uk/turing/scrapbook/run.html
>


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 03:30:39 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [Bloody Esoteric] Jenny's friends at MIT

http://www.mit.edu/404_File_Not_Found

I was frankly a little surprised when I first saw that haiku, but then I
asked Jenny and she said "Of COURSE I have friends there, where did you
think the first Zorkmids were *minted*?" and I ended up looking pretty
sheepish.

I *wish* I were making this shit up.

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:50:46 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!

Chris Pressey wrote:

> Oh well... still struggling along until the real smack in the head comes
> along.  Still scaring people over to misc or lang instead (BOO!)...
> Still tuning my hammer diligently so it can eventually produce a true
> B#...

I'm not "scared over to misc". Perhaps just "scared over to lang" so
that I have all lang-related threads now nicely concentrated in a
specific folder. If you were really that frightening, I would not even
subscribe to misc as I currently do, since esolang is forwarded to it.

Now, seriously, if I felt the need for a lang list, it's because you
did not feel the need or the want for taming the esolang discussion. You
did not consider the feelings of people who subscribed to your list
mainly for the sake of esoteric-computer-languages-related interests.
Did you ? _that_ is what "scared" me.

> *taps microphone* is this thing still on?
> 
> Bizarre... I thought it would have broken on the weekend when all the
> e-mail was switched over.

You write such kind of things and we shouldn't be the least frightened ???

Frederic vdP



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 04:21:12 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!

Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> Chris Pressey wrote:
> > Still scaring people over to misc or lang instead (BOO!)...
> I'm not "scared over to misc". Perhaps just "scared over to lang" so
> that I have all lang-related threads now nicely concentrated in a
> specific folder. If you were really that frightening, I would not even
> subscribe to misc as I currently do, since esolang is forwarded to it.

Well it's pretty much a figure of speech at this point.  To be less
colloquial, I'm using interactive methods to help you decide which
mailing list you want to be on.

> Now, seriously, if I felt the need for a lang list, it's because you
> did not feel the need or the want for taming the esolang discussion.

Well, what, pray tell, was I supposed to do, to accomplish that end? 
Propose rules for debate?  I did that, they were pretty much ignored. 
Establish strict rules of behaviour for the list?  I'm not a dictator,
this is a forum where we have freedom of speech.  What other options
were open for me?  In my mind I've tried to be reasonable, but I can't
reason with someone who's being unreasonable.

> You
> did not consider the feelings of people who subscribed to your list
> mainly for the sake of esoteric-computer-languages-related interests.
> Did you ? _that_ is what "scared" me.

Well, my view, which will probably strike you as callous, is, if you're
so senstive to something as socially trivial as a mailing list, then you
quite possibly deserve to get your feelings hurt.  I mean - my point was
certainly not to insult people for the sheer sake of insulting them.  I
was demonstrating, reductio ad absurdum style, what the games they were
playing would be like, taken to the extreme.

> > *taps microphone* is this thing still on?
> > Bizarre... I thought it would have broken on the weekend when all the
> > e-mail was switched over.
> You write such kind of things and we shouldn't be the least frightened ???

I honestly don't know when it's going to give up.  Maybe tomorrow, maybe
never.  Memetic Flood Control Cesspool Number Five: Use it 'til it
breaks.

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 12:11:23 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!



Chris Pressey wrote:
> 
> Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> > Chris Pressey wrote:
> > > Still scaring people over to misc or lang instead (BOO!)...
> > I'm not "scared over to misc". Perhaps just "scared over to lang" so
> > that I have all lang-related threads now nicely concentrated in a
> > specific folder. If you were really that frightening, I would not even
> > subscribe to misc as I currently do, since esolang is forwarded to it.
> 
> Well it's pretty much a figure of speech at this point.  To be less
> colloquial, I'm using interactive methods to help you decide which
> mailing list you want to be on.
> 
> > Now, seriously, if I felt the need for a lang list, it's because you
> > did not feel the need or the want for taming the esolang discussion.
> 
> Well, what, pray tell, was I supposed to do, to accomplish that end?

I did not have in mind the heated discussions. I had in mind the large
threads that had nothing to do with esoteric programming languages. That
was, from the POV of an esoteric-programming-language enthusiast not
that much interested in discussing on about everything, a problem.

What I was thinking is this: esolang was supposed to be an eso.prog.lang.
related list, and you kept feeding them with eso.prog.lang-unrelated
threads, (you among others, but as you are the list maintainer, you
gave yourself as an example), under the pretext that "everything is
eos.prog.lang related";
and when I suggested a list split you just kept silent and pretty much
uninterested.

> 
> > You
> > did not consider the feelings of people who subscribed to your list
> > mainly for the sake of esoteric-computer-languages-related interests.
> > Did you ? _that_ is what "scared" me.
> 
> Well, my view, which will probably strike you as callous, is, if you're
> so senstive to something as socially trivial as a mailing list, then you
> quite possibly deserve to get your feelings hurt.  

<hurt feelings>
Well, so I deserve to get my feelings hurt just because my feeling get
hurt at times ? What a harsh and insensitive (callous, yes) comment.
My feeling is that people who most deserve to get hurt are those who so
carelessly hurt other people's feelings -- and they don't always get hurt
that easily.
</hurt feelings>

What I meant with "You did not consider the feelings of people who
subscribed to your list mainly for the sake of esoteric-computer-
languages-related interests" is what I explained above: that you
disregarded the need for a eso-prog-lang-focussed discussion.

> In my mind I've tried to be reasonable, but I can't
> reason with someone who's being unreasonable.
> [...]
> I mean - my point was
> certainly not to insult people for the sheer sake of insulting them.  I
> was demonstrating, reductio ad absurdum style, what the games they were
> playing would be like, taken to the extreme.

That was not the subject I intended to bring up, but while we're on it,
I feel that you were pretty unreasonable in that discussion. You got
heated because people disagreed with you even after you displayed your
arguments, and seemed unsensitive to them.
Then you resorted to personal attacks: "you all parrots";
and to the "fallacies" game, which is a fallacy in itself as spotting
fallacies in other people's arguments (1) does not necessarily
invalidate their conclusions and (2) does not prove _your_ arguments
are fallacy-proof. (And (3), were other people's argument really
fallacious ?)

But this (meta^2-)discussion is by nature (and by my nature too) probably
going to heat again, so I better stop.

Frederic vdP



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:15:50 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: besmirch


I was going to comment on this earlier, but didn't have the time.

On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote:

> There are also no absolute directions.  Rather than being able to set an
> absolute heading (with ^ or >, for example), everything is relative.  You
> can tell the instruction pointer to turn left or right, or reverse direction.

Wasn't it so that some versions of fungeoids also had these "rotate
direction" commands? Another way to be relative could be to throw some
mirrors in the area:


-> \

   |	   ^
   v	   |

   \	-> /

I once had an idea of a one-dimensional fungeoid, where the basic flow
control tool would be accelerating the IP. You could arrange your code in
nine character rows, for example, so that an IP going at 9 chars / exec.
cycle would appear to move vertically... Maybe you could add an
instruction for "pop N, IP <- (-N) / IP" to be able to make sharp turns.
(90 degrees wrt lines of N characters)

Then again, you could also fit the idea into a two-dimensional world, and
make the "jumps" in the code really jumps: seesaws that throw the IP into
the air for N ticks, where N depends on the pace. All that time, it would
continue to go at the same speed.

> Conditional steering:
> 0       Pop.  If =0, reverse.
> !       Pop.  If !=0, reverse.

These are probably of not much use. Not even with skips.

> I/O operators:
> #       Pop a byte and output it as an ASCII character.
> )       Grab a character from input and push it.
> (Okay, if I were truly esoteric, these would be EBCDIC characters.)

That one's been used already. :)

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:23:12 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: [Announce] Smurf: a self-propagation tarpit

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Matthew Westcott wrote:

> Smurf = String-based MURiel Forthoid

This looks nice. I'm still somewhat troubled about the quotify operation.
List-like representation would make such an operation unnecessary. But
it's your language.

> strings in a forty manner.

Cont. the discussion about "forty", what does that mean?

> h - Pops a string from the stack, and pushes its head, ie the first
>     character. This causes an error if used on the empty string.
> t - Pops a string from the stack, and pushes its tail, ie all but the first
>     character. This causes an error if used on the empty string.

Have you found any use for these yet? There's no way to compare strings,
so Muriel's ability to process strings is quite limited anyway. b5, for
example, does _not_ provide (currently) a way to examine strings once they
have been built or evaluated. If you get onto the track of string
processing, you should provide much more powerful functions, IMO.

> x - Executes the string on top of the stack as a Smurf program. The stack
>     and variable store are cleared before it is executed.

By the way: isn't it so that for every quine of form X "X", there is a
program of the form Y "X" (where Y is supposedly simpler than X) that
evaluates to X "X"? And isn't it so that every program Y always works for
a set of similarly-arranged quines?

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:36:11 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [lang] Re: @#$%

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote:

> > Does it involve sencored (ouch, does it spell that way?) keywords? Ca=
n you
> > do that to constants, too, if you think they're filthy constants?
>
> What do you consider filthy constants ?
> 666 ? 69 ? 3.141592653... ?

Any constant that might hurt somebody's feelings. For example, C does not
handle this properly: if you are an Unix supporter, you can write your
code in:

#if UNIX
#endif

But if you're a Unix hater, you have no other option than

#ifndef UNIX

when the proper spelling would be

#ifndef UN*X

This, however, does make it compile on Unix machines, thus subverting the
original intention of the programmer.

> > keyboard keeps claiming it should read "two! three! four! five!". I w=
onder
> > why...
> I'd rather say "two three star <html>&ugrave;</html>". That's what
> _my_ keyboard's daemon tells me. Of course yours may be more
> knowledgeable, as its answers looks more consistent.

My keyboard daemon has the problem that it has to jump between the
mysterious alt gr and shift keys during the session. National keyboards
really suck for programming. But the frequency of accented characters in
Finnish is so high that American keymap is not an option.

> While we're at it, my daemon keeps suggesting me some nice character
> pictures like:

You asked for it - here's a sheep:

=F6#'

As you can see (but depending on the font), it's eating grass (not shown
in the picture).

Panu





------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:49:04 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [sci] Re: platonic ideals

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Daniel. wrote:

> >  > I just don't like catch phrases, and "Platonic Realm" is slowly becoming
> >>  one such catch phrase IMO...
> >
> >When people start to talk about things like "pure good as such" I usually
> >regard them (the people) as insignificant for discussion purposes.
>
> Sure, but that example conflates two issues. Ethical or moral
> statements are pretty clearly about human emotions and human cultural
> rules to the extent they make sense at all. (Not that this is obvious
> to most people.)

Ethics seems nowadays more like logic in that, the researchers are mostly
trying to find formalisations that match human intuitions (in some given
culture X). However, you still sometimes run to statements like
"Utilitarianism would lead to much more cheating that any *decent man*
would allow"  (emphasis mine).

> But what mathematical and logical statements should
> be taken as describing, and whether they're more general than the
> laws of physics--that seems to me to be a real question. Probably one
> of the insolubilia, and so useless to spend too much time on--but
> still, a real question.

You must have heard about Tarski's truth theory?

Recently, I observed that any statement, whatever its modality, can be
thought of as a statement (not only those that have a truth value as their
"top-level"). The interesting question is, because we can throw these
clauses subject to other clauses (like, you can form "I don't believe
there's a reason" from "There's a reason), what is the modality of the top
level, i.e. what the meaning of the meta level of speech is, i.e. what it
is that I mean by saying something.

The solution to such questions can be somewhat answered by the study of
null operators: modalities that have the same semantic values as their
operand, like "X is true" for any X that has a truth value.

Most notably, the parentheses make one such operator.

On a related note, not only has "come here!" a value as a statement; so
have "6", "6 = 6", "1 = 2 <-> 2 = 1", and "to get big, you must eat"
(which is _not_ the value of a material implication).

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:52:09 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: the so-called hot college girls

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, John Colagioia wrote:

> Can you fiddle with the MIME types and allow (essentially) flat text
> and all non-text-based binaries?  Or, more precisely, reject text/html,
> text/rtf, and so on?

Probably. I'm a bit too busy to do list management right now, but I'll see
what I can do sometime in near future. Please bear with me.

Panu




------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:27:20 -0300

On Thu, 03 May 2001, Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> I did not have in mind the heated discussions. I had in mind the large
> threads that had nothing to do with esoteric programming languages. That
> was, from the POV of an esoteric-programming-language enthusiast not
> that much interested in discussing on about everything, a problem.
> 
> What I was thinking is this: esolang was supposed to be an eso.prog.lang.
> related list, and you kept feeding them with eso.prog.lang-unrelated
> threads, (you among others, but as you are the list maintainer, you
> gave yourself as an example), under the pretext that "everything is
> eos.prog.lang related";
> and when I suggested a list split you just kept silent and pretty much
> uninterested.

	I'll take credit for some of the non-esolang related stuff. My reason
is this (and I don't care if you find it a satisfactory excuse, it's simply the
truth): it's getting hard to tell the difference. I can't tell the difference
between childrens stories, reference manuals and the occult anymore. They share
so many concepts that most of the categories fall apart, and some new ones are
formed. 

	Philosophy aside, that's not how I remember it... in fact Chris
presented quite a few ideas, and eventually became enthusiastic about
fissioning the list - in fact when lang was created, Chris was trying to move
the esolang core over there faster than anyone expected.

	Anyway, things have changed, apparently. We haven't really lost
anything (I mean, lang is what list@catseye was supposed to be right? If not,
why aren't you yelling at Panu?) - in fact we've gained *two* lists. I just
don't see the problem.

> What I meant with "You did not consider the feelings of people who
> subscribed to your list mainly for the sake of esoteric-computer-
> languages-related interests" is what I explained above: that you
> disregarded the need for a eso-prog-lang-focussed discussion.

	<nasty>Did you bring a shovel?</nasty>

	It's not Chris' responsibility. Even I was alienated (but for
different reasons) for a while, but that's not his problem. His list wasn't
commissioned by some world government that you're paying taxes to, you know.

	He's saying "if you want to play croquet in my yard, you'll have to put
up with the people playing frisbee tag as well." It's his list, it's his yard.
Panu, OTOH, has *two* yards, one for croquet and one for frisbee.

-- 
Steve

Shop Smart. Shop S-Mart!
	- Ash


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:14:16 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeff  Johnston <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: [announce] [long] Hanoi Love

> >  If a stack is empty when asked to pop a value, the value returned
> > will be 1 for A, 0 for B and C (D never returns a value).
>
> This is a funny one. The only way to get a non-zero value is to pop it
> from A... probably means that stack A should almost always be kept empty.

I hadn't intended that, but yeah, that's how it turned out :).  I
realized that "folding" normal memory in half was the same as having two
stacks.  Just move the fold and you can access any piece you want:

orig    if >	if <
A H	A	  H
B G	B	  G
C F	C H	A F
D E	D G	B E
^	E F	C D
	^	^

After that I didn't need my extra stack as much.  But it's still great for
multiplying things by 2.

> Of course, two stacks is well enough for everything. I think every stack
> operation can be implemented with drop, dig, pop, push and two stacks. At

I was considering those move up/down stack pointer operations.  If you can
move up and down the stack then you really only need 1 stack.  And if you
only need 1 stack then, wait a second, that's normal memory.  So that's
why I didn't include them.

> least drop, pick(n) and swap(n) suffice.
:)

Jeff





------------------------------

From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: [.Gertrude Stein] Text below
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:27:56 +0100

".Getrude Stein" is a new programming language named after the writer (which
I happen to like). Actually, its less of a language and more of a language
encoding.

The idea is simple: the code consists of regular sentences of any kind of
natural language. For each sentence, an average word length is calculated
(and rounded up/down). Words that are exactly as long as the average word
are ignored. For the other words, a ratio [words longer than average]/[words
smaller than average] is calculated and used as an instruction index. (For
instance, the ratio 4/1 could be the add instruction and so on). Sentences
that contain ! or ? are ignored and can be used as comments. Numbers are
encoded as ratios of the form 1/x , then decoded as (int)(1/(1/x)).

I think programming in this encoding should be *quite* difficult, because
you have the "unenforced" restriction that the sentences should be proper
english (or German, or Swaheli or whatever) sentences. [So, cheating aka
using "xxx" as word is not allowed]. Maybe one can enforce as restriction
some language heuristics (e.g. not too many of the same character in one
word etc.]




------------------------------

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:24:20 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: [sci] Re: platonic ideals

>  > >  > I just don't like catch phrases, and "Platonic Realm" is 
>slowly becoming
>>  >>  one such catch phrase IMO...
>>  >
>>  >When people start to talk about things like "pure good as such" I usually
>>  >regard them (the people) as insignificant for discussion purposes.
>>
>  > Sure, but that example conflates two issues. Ethical or moral
>>  statements are pretty clearly about human emotions and human cultural
>>  rules to the extent they make sense at all. (Not that this is obvious
>>  to most people.)
>
>Ethics seems nowadays more like logic in that, the researchers are mostly
>trying to find formalisations that match human intuitions (in some given
>culture X). However, you still sometimes run to statements like
>"Utilitarianism would lead to much more cheating that any *decent man*
>would allow"  (emphasis mine).

That, and even when they talk about "intuitions", well, I think the 
real content of an "intuition about the moral status of X" is a 
FEELING about X; approval or disgust or whatever. And then those 
feelings get mistaken for a sense, like sight or hearing--people 
think they're perceiving the moral qualities of a thing, and not just 
their attitudes toward it. This gets reinforced because other people 
of the same species (and even more so, other people of the same 
culture) will usually feel similarly. On this basis people come to 
believe that acts and people and so on have an intrinsic moral value, 
and you get words like "evil" being used quite literally, and so on. 
And then later some people become interested in using logic to try to 
make their "intuitions" into an orderly and consistent system, which 
is all very nice, but no argument is better than its premises.
People interested in ethics seem to take two paths. Either they go in 
and start trying to organize and systematize and clean things up, and 
sometimes do a pretty fair job of it...or they want to start with 
foundational issues ("what are ethical statements statements ABOUT? 
How does the ethical realm connect to the physical and/or the mental? 
What is our evidence for postulating moral qualities at all?" &c.), 
and they don't find answers, or even attempts at answers, and they 
end up considering the whole field bankrupt.

>  > But what mathematical and logical statements should
>>  be taken as describing, and whether they're more general than the
>>  laws of physics--that seems to me to be a real question. Probably one
>>  of the insolubilia, and so useless to spend too much time on--but
>>  still, a real question.
>
>You must have heard about Tarski's truth theory?

Yes. Haven't read it as yet though. I keep meaning to. From what I've 
heard, that gives a physical semantics for mathematical statements 
(correct me if I'm wrong)--which is very interesting and important, 
but it's not necessarily the only semantics that can be interestingly 
ascribed to them. What others there might be--what else math might 
describe--is still in question.

>Recently, I observed that any statement, whatever its modality, can be
>thought of as a statement (not only those that have a truth value as their
>"top-level"). The interesting question is, because we can throw these
>clauses subject to other clauses (like, you can form "I don't believe
>there's a reason" from "There's a reason), what is the modality of the top
>level, i.e. what the meaning of the meta level of speech is, i.e. what it
>is that I mean by saying something.

Not sure I'm following.

>The solution to such questions can be somewhat answered by the study of
>null operators: modalities that have the same semantic values as their
>operand, like "X is true" for any X that has a truth value.

That hasn't QUITE the same semantic value; "X is true" also asserts 
the existence of the statement X. For an especially obvious example, 
"Russell's statements about Berkeley were true" not only asserts what 
his statements about Berkeley did, it also asserts that he made such 
statements. (And furthermore it implies that they were meaningful. 
Which the statements themselves did not imply.)

>Most notably, the parentheses make one such operator.

Sure.

>On a related note, not only has "come here!" a value as a statement; so
>have "6", "6 = 6", "1 = 2 <-> 2 = 1", and "to get big, you must eat"
>(which is _not_ the value of a material implication).

Not sure I'm following you. What value has "6" as a statement?
-Daniel.




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:41:58 +1100
From: rlmdeynvpb@hotbot.com
Subject: Japanese Schoolgirls Bare It All                                      

Wanna see some NUDE JAPANESE SCHOOLGIRLS?
Wanna see them get wild and have hardcore sex? If so
then cum inside for some hot teen sex action!
http://10freemegs.com/members/japan/index.html
 


You will love our cute Japanese Girls. They are hot and 
raunchy and love to have sex afterschool. Cum inside 
and see for your self. They are waiting to make you cum!
http://10freemegs.com/members/japan/index.html 
 
 
 
 

 
********************************************************************************
WARNING: Adult content inside this site and you must be 18 years
of age or older to view this site.
If you wished to be removed from our mailing list,  just click here 
http://www.10freemegs.com/remove.htm and leave us your e-mail
address. We honor remove requests.
********************************************************************************



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 21:56:26 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: [sci] Re: platonic ideals

"Daniel." wrote:
> "Russell's statements about Berkeley were true" not only asserts what
> his statements about Berkeley did, it also asserts that he made such
> statements. 

I resent the assertion. I said nothing about Berkeley. 

-RB




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:39:40 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: [sci] Re: platonic ideals



Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> 
> "Daniel." wrote:
> > "Russell's statements about Berkeley were true" not only asserts what
> > his statements about Berkeley did, it also asserts that he made such
> > statements.
> 
> I resent the assertion. I said nothing about Berkeley.

Now you have.
:)

Frederic





------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 11:08:50 -0400
From: Greg Velichansky <hmaon@bumba.net>
Subject: Re: Japanese Schoolgirls Bare It All                                  

On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 02:41:58PM +1100, rlmdeynvpb@hotbot.com wrote:
> Wanna see some NUDE JAPANESE SCHOOLGIRLS?

Depends... can they code?

> Wanna see them get wild and have hardcore sex? 

No, I want to see them post to this list on-topic.

> cum inside!

ew

> http://10freemegs.com/members/japan/index.html

10freemegs? This is obviously a high-class operation, yup aha...

> You will love our cute Japanese Girls. 

I bet they're really Koreans.

> They are hot and 
> raunchy and love to have sex afterschool. 

Don't they assign homework over there?

> Cum inside 

Does this witty turn of phrase really sell anything to anyone? Geez.


> They are waiting to make you cum!

Don't hold your breath, faux Japanese school-girls...

> If you wished to be removed from our mailing list,  just click here 
> http://www.10freemegs.com/remove.htm and leave us your e-mail
> address. We honor remove requests.

Ha.

gsv


------------------------------

From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: [Useless Knowledge][List Meta at the bottom] Comparing Gertrude Stein 
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 21:23:33 +0100

You might not be interested in knowing this, but here I go with some useless
information I acquired while trying to write sample programs for ".Getrude",
(one of) my next GPLZ language(s).

The english electronic version of Immanuel Kants seminal "Critique of Pure
Reason", weighing in at 1.2 MB plaintext, has

829 Unique Ratios: ['0/0', '0/1', and so on]

but rates poor on

6 Unique Numbers: [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
6 Unique Inverse Numbers: [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

and contains completely boring sentences like "Nunc trahor exul, inops" and
one rated '51/43': "I appeal to the most obstinate dogmatist, whether the
proof of the continued existence of the soul after death, derived from the
simplicity of its substance; of the freedom of the will in opposition to the
general mechanism of nature, drawn from the subtle but impotent distinction
of subjective and objective practical necessity; or of the existence of God,
deduced from the conception of an ens realissimum- the contingency of the
changeable, and the necessity of a prime mover, has ever been able to pass
beyond the limits of the schools, to penetrate the public mind, or to
exercise the slightest influence on its convictions."

In contrast, a small text by Gertrude Stein, which is only 93K large, has a
high 227 Unique Ratios, and more interestingly

4 Unique Numbers: [0, 1, 2, 3]
9 Unique Inverse Numbers: [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]

plus it contains sentences like "The settling of stationing cleaning is one
way not to shatter scatter and scattering.", "Why is there more craving than
there is in a mountain" and "A whole soldier any whole soldier has no more
detail than any case of measles."

So, you be the judge, who is more fun ?

----------------------
On a totally unrelated note, I wasn't able to follow all that traffic on
this list, but there seem to be new lists for esoteric programming languages
in finnland ??? Where ? A Website somewhere ? The Traffic on this list has
been slow the last days, compared to the millions of "question tennis" and
"seti puzzle" stuff that remained unread in my inbox up to now, and probably
forever.








------------------------------

From: "Matthew Westcott" <matthew.westcott@oriel.oxford.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 21:02:03 +0100
Subject: [lang] Re: [Announce] Smurf: a self-propagation tarpit

On 3 May 2001, at 14:23, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Matthew Westcott wrote:
> 
> > Smurf = String-based MURiel Forthoid
> 
> This looks nice. I'm still somewhat troubled about the quotify operation.
> List-like representation would make such an operation unnecessary. But
> it's your language.

If you can come up with an alternative way of doing it, I'm open to 
suggestions. I can't see how it could be done - data must be 
represented in a different way to code (for example, as a list of 
ASCII codes, or delimited by quotes), and the whole language is based 
on turning data into code, so surely there'd always need to be some 
sort of function to transfer between data and code.

> > operations are carried out on
> > strings in a forty manner.
> 
> Cont. the discussion about "forty", what does that mean?

Well, I was using it in the sense "relating to the Forth language", 
as defined by Cliff. It certainly isn't a dictionary definition - I 
was just doing my bit for meme propagation, and it was exactly the 
word I needed at that particular moment, so I decided to use it (and 
thus make that sentence totally incomprehensible to anyone outside 
this list, but hey, you can't have everything...)

(I'm desperately thinking of a way to get the phrase "May the 
Fo[u]rth be with you" in here somewhere, because today is the only 
day of the year when that joke works...)

> > h - Pops a string from the stack, and pushes its head, ie the first
> >     character. This causes an error if used on the empty string.
> > t - Pops a string from the stack, and pushes its tail, ie all but the first
> >     character. This causes an error if used on the empty string.
> 
> Have you found any use for these yet?

I've used them in my 9 Bottles Of Beer program now available at 
http://demo.raww.net/muriel/ - I don't have the nerve to figure out 
nested loops, so it might be a while before I come up with the full 
99-bottle version.

(I've also fixed a stupid bug in the Smurf interpreter, so that's up 
on the page too.)

> There's no way to compare strings,

Ah, but there is! It's incredibly contrived, as I'm sure you'll be 
pleased to know.

For example, to translate the BASIC statement
IF projectile = "cow" THEN PRINT "run away!"
(where projectile is a variable and "cow" is a literal string),
you'd use the following steps:
1. Start a new program instance to execute the steps below.
   (This is to clear all unwanted variables - we can keep hold of
   "projectile" by re-assigning this at the start of the new program)
2. Store the program " \"run away!\"o " in a variable named "cow"
3. Stack the variable name "projectile", and retrieve its value
4. Treating the resulting value as a variable name, retrieve its value
5. Execute the retrieved string.

> By the way: isn't it so that for every quine of form X "X", there is a
> program of the form Y "X" (where Y is supposedly simpler than X) that
> evaluates to X "X"? And isn't it so that every program Y always works for
> a set of similarly-arranged quines?

Yes, I think you're right there - quines rely on redundancy within 
the program structure in order to work, but since Smurf and Muriel 
programs don't have this as their primary aim, there's no reason to 
have this redundancy lying around at the start of the program.
OK, I hereby declare it Good Practice for all Smurf and Muriel 
programmers to make the first stage of their programs a 
"decompressor" of this sort, to piece together the real program and 
execute it. (Hmm, style guidelines for a language like this? That's 
wishful thinking if ever I saw it...)


Matthew Westcott




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 15:39:33 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!

Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> Chris Pressey wrote:
> > Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> > > Now, seriously, if I felt the need for a lang list, it's because you
> > > did not feel the need or the want for taming the esolang discussion.
> > Well, what, pray tell, was I supposed to do, to accomplish that end?
> I did not have in mind the heated discussions. I had in mind the large
> threads that had nothing to do with esoteric programming languages. That
> was, from the POV of an esoteric-programming-language enthusiast not
> that much interested in discussing on about everything, a problem.
> What I was thinking is this: esolang was supposed to be an eso.prog.lang.
> related list,

Whoa.  Back up.

This is the "Cat's Eye Technologies Electronic Mailing List," right?

Yes, one of the things discussed on this list is esoteric programming. 
No, I have never claimed that should be the *only* topic of discussion
on this list.  In fact I've said several things about how crosstalk and
synergy are *good*, which is why I didn't decide to have n different
lists, and why I've said (jokingly) that this list is a "weakly-typed
drop-in replacement for usenet."

I'm not the one who started calling it the ESOLANG list.  I'm not sure
who did.  I only learned why people call it that a few months ago (it
fits in with the CONLANG and AUXLANG mailing-list-naming-convention.) 
I've not called it that anywhere *I've* advertised it, that I'm aware
of.

> and you kept feeding them with eso.prog.lang-unrelated
> threads, (you among others, but as you are the list maintainer, you
> gave yourself as an example), under the pretext that "everything is
> eos.prog.lang related";

Let's go deeper.  Show how any given x is NOT related to esoteric
programming languages.  I mean, I don't think that's for us to say. 
Only future esoteric language designers get to decide whether what we
were talking about was "on topic" or not.  Exploration is not to be
ignored unless you prefer stagnation to growth.

> and when I suggested a list split you just kept silent and pretty much
> uninterested.

I'm *extremely* interested and happy that there is now a "real ESOLANG"
which is "solely dedicated to esoteric programming languages."  I've
thanked Panu for taking that burden, and I've posted an ("on topic")
message or two to lang@esoteric itself.  I'm not certain how I'm
supposed to show *more* interest.  If I was staying quiet, it was to see
how other people felt about the list split.  I get the impression they
like it, too.

> > > You
> > > did not consider the feelings of people who subscribed to your list
> > > mainly for the sake of esoteric-computer-languages-related interests.
> > > Did you ? _that_ is what "scared" me.
> > Well, my view, which will probably strike you as callous, is, if you're
> > so senstive to something as socially trivial as a mailing list, then you
> > quite possibly deserve to get your feelings hurt.
> <hurt feelings>
> Well, so I deserve to get my feelings hurt just because my feeling get
> hurt at times ?

Kind of.  You're the only one who can choose or choose not to take
things personally.  No one else can choose that for you.  So if you
choose to have your feelings hurt, then, yeah, you sort of deserve to
have your feelings hurt; after all, you chose it.

> What a harsh and insensitive (callous, yes) comment.

In that case I wouldn't take it personally if I were you.  Of course,
I'm not you, so you'll have to decide whether you want to take it
personally or not.

> My feeling is that people who most deserve to get hurt are those who so
> carelessly hurt other people's feelings -- and they don't always get hurt
> that easily.
> </hurt feelings>

OK.  My thought is that feelings don't have to be hurt at all, but
that's not the speaker's job, it's the listener's.

> What I meant with "You did not consider the feelings of people who
> subscribed to your list mainly for the sake of esoteric-computer-
> languages-related interests" is what I explained above: that you
> disregarded the need for a eso-prog-lang-focussed discussion.

OK, let's go even deeper.  What need *is* there for EPL-focused
discussion?

Economic perogative?  No.  No one's making greenbacks on this AFAICT.

Scientific contribution?  Well, barely.  Let's say there's an outside
chance.

Entertainment?  There's plenty of other ways to be entertained.

Social bonding?  There's plenty of other ways to do that too.

Expansion of consciousness?  Perhaps - but if so, it would seem not only
justified by inevitable that other topics of conversation would
eventually appear and interbreed, both to introduce new ideas into
programming language and to introduce programming language to other
ideas.

> > In my mind I've tried to be reasonable, but I can't
> > reason with someone who's being unreasonable.
> > [...]
> > I mean - my point was
> > certainly not to insult people for the sheer sake of insulting them.  I
> > was demonstrating, reductio ad absurdum style, what the games they were
> > playing would be like, taken to the extreme.
> That was not the subject I intended to bring up, but while we're on it,
> I feel that you were pretty unreasonable in that discussion. You got
> heated because people disagreed with you even after you displayed your
> arguments, and seemed unsensitive to them.

Well, I'm not certain what you mean by "got heated."  If you mean that I
got angry, I may well have for a time, but I gave up taking that
personally on April 13th.

> Then you resorted to personal attacks: "you all parrots";

OK.  Look.  I never said "You're all parrots".  I may have said "You
sound like you're parrotting that," or "It seems likely that that's just
being parrotted."

Two, calling someone a parrot (which, to the best of my recollection, I
didn't do) isn't a personal attack - unless you have something against
parrots.  I mean, parrots are probably *the* most intelligent species of
bird on the planet.  Why is being called a parrot not a compliment?  If
I called you an ox or a bear you might take that as a compliment to your
strength; why is it the case that being called a parrot (which is,
again, to the best of my recollection, something I didn't do) is
necessarily an insult?

Parrotting is something everyone does.  Everyone.

  http://www.britannica.com/magazine?ebsco_id=85355&pager.offset=10

> and to the "fallacies" game, which is a fallacy in itself as spotting
> fallacies in other people's arguments (1) does not necessarily
> invalidate their conclusions and (2) does not prove _your_ arguments
> are fallacy-proof.

Where did I say that it did?

I proposed the rules simply so that we could have a game of Debate that
didn't degenerate into a game of Sink.

> (And (3), were other people's argument really
> fallacious ?)

That's what I was trying to find out!  Of course, if you dismiss fallacy
as a fallacy, you'll never know.  I mean, if you dismiss fallacy as a
fallacy, you're wading in some *heavy* irony, aren't you?

"Fallacy, a fallacy? Why that's a fallacy!"  It just goes back to Sink.

> But this (meta^2-)discussion is by nature (and by my nature too) probably
> going to heat again, so I better stop.

Again it depends what you mean by "heated."  If you think, by writing
this, that I *must* be angry at you, then I would say that you're
wrong.  I could be writing this out of jealousy or joy or suspicion or
any number of other emotions, or I could be writing it totally
emotionlessly...

I mean, how can you tell?

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 15:49:05 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Useless Knowledge][List Meta at the bottom] Comparing Gertrude 

Immanuel Kant wrote:
> "I appeal to the most obstinate dogmatist, whether the
> proof of the continued existence of the soul after death, derived from the
> simplicity of its substance; of the freedom of the will in opposition to the
> general mechanism of nature, drawn from the subtle but impotent distinction
> of subjective and objective practical necessity; or of the existence of God,
> deduced from the conception of an ens realissimum- the contingency of the
> changeable, and the necessity of a prime mover, has ever been able to pass
> beyond the limits of the schools, to penetrate the public mind, or to
> exercise the slightest influence on its convictions."

Immanuel is FINED 1,000 quatloos for using the word "G*d" without
censoring it.  Immanuel must either pay up by midnight tonight or spend
all of tomorrow in a BOX.  It's his choice.

Gertrude Stein wrote:
> "The settling of stationing cleaning is one
> way not to shatter scatter and scattering.", "Why is there more craving than
> there is in a mountain" and "A whole soldier any whole soldier has no more
> detail than any case of measles."
> So, you be the judge, who is more fun ?

1,000,000 Zorkmids to Gertrude!

> On a totally unrelated note, I wasn't able to follow all that traffic on
> this list, but there seem to be new lists for esoteric programming languages
> in finnland ??? Where ? A Website somewhere ?

Check the list.html URL in my sig.  It'll point you there.

> The Traffic on this list has
> been slow the last days, compared to the millions of "question tennis" and
> "seti puzzle" stuff that remained unread in my inbox up to now, and probably
> forever.

If you don't mind the ruckus, stay.  Things are only going to get
weirder here on list@catseye.  But I figure you might appreciate that
:-)

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 23:07:55 -0500
From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole <bsr@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [Message from ESO]

While generally credited with no more than twenty moons, Saturn actually
has 27,963,112 of them by my reckoning, give or take a couple of hundred
thousand at any given moment.  Of course, I could be wrong.

For futher information see ESO itself:
  http://www.eso.org/outreach/press-rel/pr-1996/pr-03-96.html

Anyway while I was there the Extra-Rastafarian Intelligence Search
(ERIS) dropped a Hostess Fruit Pie in my lap.  It had the following
cryptic puzzle engraved in it:

  - : (--(--(: (--(--(:-(--(: =+(: :((+=

According to the engineer who works there, that's someone's attempt at
describing a number system.

I told her I thought it looked like someone's attempt at an emoticon
totem pole, but no.  She was dead serious.

But I didn't really care what was written on it.  I was hungry.

Hostess makes some *damned* tasty fruit pies.

-BSR

-- 
"Herding cats is trivial once you have some catnip"
bsr@catseye.mb.ca


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 23:10:29 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeff  Johnston <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [lang] [bf] [calc] TI-82 BF Interpreter

Texas Instruments TI-82 BrainF*** Interpreter

This one is pretty similar to my Casio interpreter. Matrix A is for the
program.  Automatically created if it doesn't exist. Matrices B & C are
for Stack & Memory, they are automatically created and cleared each time.

calc	BF
0	>
1	<
2	+
3	-
4	.
5	,
6	[
7 	]
8	@ (exit)

Key:
<>	not equal to
<=	less than or equal to
/	division

PROGRAM:BF
{99,1}->dim [A]
{99,1}->dim [B]:Fill(0,[B])
{99,1}->dim [C]:Fill(0,[C])
1->D:0->E:0->G
Lbl 2:1+E->E
Lbl 3:[A](E,1)->F:[C](D,1)->H
If F=8:Goto 7
If F=0:D+1->D
If F=1:D-1->D
If F=2:256fPart ((H+1)/256)->[C](D,1)
If F=3:256fPart ((H+255)/256)->[C](D,1)
If F=4:Disp H
If F=5:Then:Input I:I->[C](D,1):End
If F<>6:Goto 6
If H<>0:Goto 5
1->I:Lbl 4:E+1->E
If [A](E,1)=6:I+1->I
If [A](E,1)=7:I-1->I
If I<=0:Goto 2
Goto 4
Lbl 5:1+G->G:E->[B](G,1):Goto 2
Lbl 6:If F+7:Goto 2
[B](G,1)->E:G-1->G:Goto 3
Lbl 7

I didn't time it because A) the "Hello World!" test program wouldn't fit
in the 99 instructions.  If I wanted to add more range it gets more
complicated and slower, but then who wants to type more than 99
instructions into a calculator in the first place? :) B) I'm running it on
an emulator so I don't know if it would be timed right anyways.

Jeff





------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 23:24:24 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: [Message from ESO] November-Sierra Coincidence

Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote:
> Anyway while I was there the Extra-Rastafarian Intelligence Search
> (ERIS) dropped a Hostess Fruit Pie in my lap.  [snip]
> 
> But I didn't really care what was written on it.  I was hungry.
> 
> Hostess makes some *damned* tasty fruit pies.

Whoa. The fiancee and I just came back from SYMPHONY (where I briefly
considered booing) and stopped at a convenience store on the corner 
on the way home to buy an Orangina. I spotted a HOSTESS FRUIT PIE 
while we were in there, bought it, and ATE IT. Walked in the house 
not fifteen minutes ago. November Sierra. 

> "Herding cats is trivial once you have some catnip"

I have a really hard time believing this is true in the average
multiple-cat case.

-RB


------------------------------

From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: [.Gertrude] [Long] Hello, World
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 11:04:01 +0100

The following is a -working- version of "Hello, World" in .Gertrude. All
sentences are taken either from the 1914 text "Tender Buttons" by Gertrude
Stein, available online at http://www.bartleby.com/140/1.html, or from Kants
Critique of Pure Reason. The interpreter for this fine sourcecode will be
available for downloading on my site tomorrow. I'm looking for great online
texts to turn into .gertrude sourcecode, so if you have suggestions, shoot.

----------------
Winged to be winged means that white is yellow and pieces pieces that are
brown are dust color if dust is washed off then it is choice that is to say
it is fitting cigarettes sooner than paper.
A CARAFE THAT IS A BLIND GLASS.
Suppose they are put together suppose that there is an interruption
supposing that beginning again they are not changed as to position suppose
all this and suppose that any five two of whom are not separating suppose
that the five are not consumed.
Cut more than any other and show it.
He would have been peculiarly well fitted to give a truly scientific
character to metaphysical studies had it occurred to him to prepare the
field by a criticism of the organum that is of pure reason itself.
The difference is spreading.
A sight a whole sight and a little groan grinding makes a trimming such a
sweet singing trimming and a red thing not a round thing but a white thing a
red thing and a white thing.
A little called anything shows shudders.
But an thought must directly or indirectly by means of certain signs relate
ultimately to intuitions; consequently with us to sensibility because in no
other way can an object be given to us.
Nickel what is nickel it is originally rid of a cover.
Why is a pale white not paler than blue why is a connection made by a stove
why is the example which is mentioned not shown to be the same why is there
no adjustment between the place and the separate attention.
What is the sash like.
" But the category of substance when the conception of a body is brought
under it determines that; and its empirical intuition in experience must be
contemplated always as subject and never as mere predicate.
The change in that is that red weakens an hour.
But motion considered as the description of a space is a pure act of the
successive synthesis of the manifold in external intuition by means of
productive imagination and belongs not only to geometry but even to
transcendental philosophy.
A widow in a wise veil and more garments shows that shadows are even.
A plain hill one is not that which is not white and red and green a plain
hill makes no sunshine it shows that without a disturber.
We cannot cogitate a geometrical line without drawing it in thought nor a
circle without describing it nor represent the three dimensions of space
without drawing three lines from the same point perpendicular to one
another.
There is no search.
Principles a priori are so called not merely because they contain in
themselves the grounds of other judgements but also because they themselves
are not grounded in higher and more general cognitions.
But there is there is that hope and that interpretation and sometime surely
any is unwelcome sometime there is breath and there will be a sinecure and
charming very charming is that clean and cleansing.
A plan a hearty plan a compressed disease and no coffee not even a card or a
change to incline each way a plan that has that excess and that break is the
one that shows filling.
Cutting shade cool spades and little last beds make violet violet when.
It is very remarkable that we cannot perceive the possibility of a thing
from the category alone but must always have an intuition by which to make
evident the objective reality of the pure conception of the understanding.
There can be breakages in Japanese.
A plan a hearty plan a compressed disease and no coffee not even a card or a
change to incline each way a plan that has that excess and that break is the
one that shows filling.
Cutting shade cool spades and little last beds make violet violet when.
Mathematical axioms (for example there can be only one straight line between
two points) are general a priori cognitions and are therefore rightly
denominated principles relatively to the cases which can be subsumed under
them.
That is no color chosen.
A plan a hearty plan a compressed disease and no coffee not even a card or a
change to incline each way a plan that has that excess and that break is the
one that shows filling.
Cutting shade cool spades and little last beds make violet violet when.
If we employ our reason not merely in the application of the principles of
the understanding to objects of experience but venture with it beyond these
boundaries there arise certain sophistical propositions or theorems.
It was chosen yesterday that showed spitting and perhaps washing and
polishing.
A plan a hearty plan a compressed disease and no coffee not even a card or a
change to incline each way a plan that has that excess and that break is the
one that shows filling.
Cutting shade cool spades and little last beds make violet violet when.
As regards the second statement let us first take the opposite for granted-
that the world is finite and limited in space; it follows that it must exist
in a void space which is not limited.
The change of color is likely and a difference a very little difference is
prepared.
A plan a hearty plan a compressed disease and no coffee not even a card or a
change to incline each way a plan that has that excess and that break is the
one that shows filling.
The lamp and the cake are not the only sign of stone.
But if you do not take care at the outset or at least midway to make men
good you will never force them into an honest belief.
The assertor of the all-sufficiency of nature in regard to causality
(transcendental Physiocracy) in opposition to the doctrine of freedom would
defend his view of the question somewhat in the following manner.
Callous is something that hardening leaves behind what will be soft if there
is a genuine interest in there being present as many girls as men.
We must seek the cause of our failure in our idea itself which is an
insoluble problem and in regard to which we obstinately assume that there
exists a real object corresponding and adequate to it.
It shows that dirt is clean when there is a volume.
A plan a hearty plan a compressed disease and no coffee not even a card or a
change to incline each way a plan that has that excess and that break is the
one that shows filling.
The place was shown to be very like the last time.
If we say of a thing that in relation to some other thing it is too large or
too small the former is considered as existing for the sake of the latter
and requiring to be adapted to it.
A cushion has that cover.
A plan a hearty plan a compressed disease and no coffee not even a card or a
change to incline each way a plan that has that excess and that break is the
one that shows filling.
Choose the rate to pay and pet pet very much.
But if you do not take care at the outset or at least midway to make men
good you will never force them into an honest belief.
The principle of an unbroken connection between all events in the phenomenal
world in accordance with the unchangeable laws of nature is a
well-established principle of transcendental analytic which admits of no
exception.
A circle of fine card board and a chance to see a tassel.
But if you do not take care at the outset or at least midway to make men
good you will never force them into an honest belief.
But still further removed than the idea from objective reality is the Ideal
by which term I understand the idea not in concreto but in individuo- as an
individual thing determinable or determined by the idea alone.
The question does not come before there is a quotation.
On the contrary this idea serves merely to indicate a certain unattainable
perfection and rather limits the operations than by the presentation of new
objects extends the sphere of the understanding.
In any kind of place there is a top to covering and it is a pleasure at any
rate there is some venturing in refusing to believe nonsense.
A plan a hearty plan a compressed disease and no coffee not even a card or a
change to incline each way a plan that has that excess and that break is the
one that shows filling.
A season in yellow sold extra strings makes lying places.
But if you do not take care at the outset or at least midway to make men
good you will never force them into an honest belief.
I answer: It is absurd to introduce- under whatever term disguised- into the
conception of a thing which is to be cogitated solely in reference to its
possibility the conception of its existence.
It shows what use there is in a whole piece if one uses it and it is extreme
and very likely the little things could be dearer but in any case there is a
bargain and if there is the best thing to do is to take it away and wear it
and then be reckless be reckless and resolved on returning gratitude.
If the empirical law of causality is to conduct us to a Supreme Being this
being must belong to the chain of empirical objects- in which case it would
be like all phenomena itself conditioned.
Certainly glittering is handsome and convincing.
If we wish to divide this science from the universal point of view of a
science in general it ought to comprehend first a Doctrine of the Elements
and secondly a Doctrine of the Method of pure reason.
Cold pails cold with joy no joy.
The conceptions of reality substance causality nay even that of necessity in
existence have no significance out of the sphere of empirical cognition and
cannot beyond that sphere determine any object.
Is there not much more joy in a table and more chairs and very likely
roundness and a place to put them.
There are however pure principles a priori which nevertheless I should not
ascribe to the pure understanding- for this reason that they are not derived
from pure conceptions but (although by the mediation of the understanding)
from pure intuitions.
Very likely there should not be a finer fancy present.
Out of this sphere they are not properly conceptions but the mere marks or
indices of conceptions which we may admit although they cannot without the
help of experience help us to understand any subject or thing.
A closet a closet does not connect under the bed.
But our proof shows that external experience is properly immediate that only
by virtue of it- not indeed the consciousness of our own existence but
certainly the determination of our existence in time that is internal
experience- is possible.
Yet such really is the case here.
But if you do not take care at the outset or at least midway to make men
good you will never force them into an honest belief.
At the same time we may attribute to this being infinite perfection- a
perfection which necessarily transcends that which our knowledge of the
order and design in the world authorize us to predicate of it.
A sight a whole sight and a little groan grinding makes a trimming such a
sweet singing trimming and a red thing not a round thing but a white thing a
red thing and a white thing.
Masters in the science of mathematics are confident of the success of this
method; indeed it is a common persuasion that it is capable of being applied
to any subject of human thought.
Dirty is yellow.
Where this unity of time is not to be met with as is the case with noumena
the whole use indeed the whole meaning of the categories is entirely lost
for even the possibility of things to correspond to the categories is in
this case incomprehensible.
A woolen object gilded.
If then in the speculative sphere of pure reason no dogmata are to be found;
all dogmatical methods whether borrowed from mathematics or invented by
philosophical thinkers are alike inappropriate and inefficient.
The three are on the table.
A little monkey goes like a donkey that means to say that means to say that
more sighs last goes.
Yet such really is the case here.
For such a hypothesis would introduce the principle of ignava ratio which
requires us to give up the search for causes that might be discovered in the
course of experience and to rest satisfied with a mere idea.
A plan a hearty plan a compressed disease and no coffee not even a card or a
change to incline each way a plan that has that excess and that break is the
one that shows filling.
A little monkey goes like a donkey that means to say that means to say that
more sighs last goes.
Yet such really is the case here.
Mathematics natural science the common experience of men have a high value
as means for the most part to accidental ends- but at last also to those
which are necessary and essential to the existence of humanity.
A SELTZER BOTTLE.
A little monkey goes like a donkey that means to say that means to say that
more sighs last goes.
Light blue and the same red with purple makes a change.
But if you do not take care at the outset or at least midway to make men
good you will never force them into an honest belief.
Mathematics natural science the common experience of men have a high value
as means for the most part to accidental ends- but at last also to those
which are necessary and essential to the existence of humanity.
A LONG DRESS.
But if you do not take care at the outset or at least midway to make men
good you will never force them into an honest belief.
Mathematics natural science the common experience of men have a high value
as means for the most part to accidental ends- but at last also to those
which are necessary and essential to the existence of humanity.
It shows that there is no mistake.
Mathematics natural science the common experience of men have a high value
as means for the most part to accidental ends- but at last also to those
which are necessary and essential to the existence of humanity.
Some increase means a calamity and this is the best preparation for three
and more being together.
A plan a hearty plan a compressed disease and no coffee not even a card or a
change to incline each way a plan that has that excess and that break is the
one that shows filling.
A LITTLE CALLED PAULINE.
But if you do not take care at the outset or at least midway to make men
good you will never force them into an honest belief.
Mathematics natural science the common experience of men have a high value
as means for the most part to accidental ends- but at last also to those
which are necessary and essential to the existence of humanity.
A little calm is so ordinary and in any case there is sweetness and some of
that.
Mathematics natural science the common experience of men have a high value
as means for the most part to accidental ends- but at last also to those
which are necessary and essential to the existence of humanity.
A seal and matches and a swan and ivy and a suit.
A little monkey goes like a donkey that means to say that means to say that
more sighs last goes.
Cutting shade cool spades and little last beds make violet violet when.
But if you do not take care at the outset or at least midway to make men
good you will never force them into an honest belief.
Mathematics natural science the common experience of men have a high value
as means for the most part to accidental ends- but at last also to those
which are necessary and essential to the existence of humanity.
The band if it is white and black the band has a green string.
Mathematics natural science the common experience of men have a high value
as means for the most part to accidental ends- but at last also to those
which are necessary and essential to the existence of humanity.
The disgrace is not in carelessness nor even in sewing it comes out out of
the way.
A little monkey goes like a donkey that means to say that means to say that
more sighs last goes.
Yet such really is the case here.
Mathematics natural science the common experience of men have a high value
as means for the most part to accidental ends- but at last also to those
which are necessary and essential to the existence of humanity.
The sash is not like anything mustard it is not like a same thing that has
stripes it is not even more hurt than that it has a little top.
A little monkey goes like a donkey that means to say that means to say that
more sighs last goes.
Yet such really is the case here.
But if you do not take care at the outset or at least midway to make men
good you will never force them into an honest belief.
Mathematics natural science the common experience of men have a high value
as means for the most part to accidental ends- but at last also to those
which are necessary and essential to the existence of humanity.
A BOX.



------------------------------

From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: [lang] [.gertrude] Announce
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:32:30 +0100

.Gertrude Spec: http://www.p-nand-q.com/gplz/gplz-gertrude.htm
Implementation: http://www.p-nand-q.com/gplz/gplz.zip






------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 21:32:10 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!



Steve Mosher wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 03 May 2001, Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> > I did not have in mind the heated discussions. I had in mind the large
> > threads that had nothing to do with esoteric programming languages. That
> > was, from the POV of an esoteric-programming-language enthusiast not
> > that much interested in discussing on about everything, a problem.
> >
> > What I was thinking is this: esolang was supposed to be an eso.prog.lang.
> > related list, and you kept feeding them with eso.prog.lang-unrelated
> > threads, (you among others, but as you are the list maintainer, you
> > gave yourself as an example), under the pretext that "everything is
> > eos.prog.lang related";
> > and when I suggested a list split you just kept silent and pretty much
> > uninterested.
> 
>         I'll take credit for some of the non-esolang related stuff. My reason
> is this (and I don't care if you find it a satisfactory excuse, it's simply the
> truth): it's getting hard to tell the difference. 

Well, I think I can see a difference. There is probably a continuum
of subjects between Brainf*ck and George W. Bush politics, but when I
talk about G.W.B. I know I no longer talk about computer languages.

There's the question of the _goal_ one pursues in posting a message.
Obviously discussing GWB politics had no goal directly related to
esoteric computer languages. That may be good or bad, but that was
not what I was lead to expect.

> I can't tell the difference
> between childrens stories, reference manuals and the occult anymore. 
> so many concepts that most of the categories fall apart, and some new ones are
> formed.

That's a drift that pisses me off. You can't confuse all concepts
and put everything in the same big bag under the pretext that categories
fall apart. Grossly speaking, gross categories grosso modo stay. At
times a gross category falls apart -- but it does not happen _that_
often. And many categories have stayed for really long.

> 
>         Philosophy aside, that's not how I remember it... in fact Chris
> presented quite a few ideas, and eventually became enthusiastic about
> fissioning the list

> - in fact when lang was created, Chris was trying to move
> the esolang core over there faster than anyone expected.

I would not say Chris is or ever was "enthusiastic about fissioning the
list". That's not what I read in or between the lines of his reactions. At
least not for fissioning Catseye's list (since we must call it Catseye's
list now). So he did about nothing to favourise the split. If I was not
there, perhaps list@esoteric.sange.fi would not exist (yet).

As he wrote:
<<<
  The problem is that I kind of think that splitting them apart would hurt
  the synergy. [...] I suspect if the list split, the
  esoteric programmers would split, too; into "esoterics" and
  "programmers."
>>>

> 
>         Anyway, things have changed, apparently. We haven't really lost
> anything (I mean, lang is what list@catseye was supposed to be right? If not,
> why aren't you yelling at Panu?) - in fact we've gained *two* lists. I just
> don't see the problem.

lang is what I expected list@catseye to be (and what list@catseye was, 
in the beginning of my subscription). Now that lang exists, I'm
happy. I do not say there _is_ a problem, I said there _was_ a problem,
at least to me.

> 
> > What I meant with "You did not consider the feelings of people who
> > subscribed to your list mainly for the sake of esoteric-computer-
> > languages-related interests" is what I explained above: that you
> > disregarded the need for a eso-prog-lang-focussed discussion.
> 
>         <nasty>Did you bring a shovel?</nasty>

I don't get it. (seriously !)

> 
>         It's not Chris' responsibility. Even I was alienated (but for
> different reasons) for a while, but that's not his problem. His list wasn't
> commissioned by some world government that you're paying taxes to, you know.

So what ?

>         He's saying "if you want to play croquet in my yard, you'll have to put
> up with the people playing frisbee tag as well." It's his list, it's his yard.
> Panu, OTOH, has *two* yards, one for croquet and one for frisbee.

It's his list, OK.
But then it's the host's responsibility to keep the guests happy. You
can't do anything just because you're the host, you own the list etc.
Unless you're ready to piss many guests off.
If you invite people to play croquet, and they find out the field gets
more and more cluttered by frisbee players, should they be happy ?

Now he claims we were never invited to play croquet exclusively. I
wonder. Just checking the invitation.... yeah. It does not mention you'd
play croquet exclusively. But it does not mention any other game than
croquet, and the only concrete examples it gives are about croquet. So
I guess I can't be blamed if I was mislead.

Frederic vdP



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 21:56:32 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: [Essies] Essies cat 2 & 3 ?

<!-- this is not question tennis, despite the appearances-->

What's up with the judging of the Essies categories 2 & 3 ?

Did they get cancelled by lack of participants ? (But there was at least
one candidate, wasn't there ?)

Or did I miss the (dis)announcement ?

Frederic vdP



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 22:39:19 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [.Gertrude] [Long] Hello, World



Gerson Kurz wrote:
> 
> The following is a -working- version of "Hello, World" in .Gertrude. 

Must be the longest "Hello, World!" program I've ever seen.
Nice !

> All
> sentences are taken either from the 1914 text "Tender Buttons" by Gertrude
> Stein, available online at http://www.bartleby.com/140/1.html, or from Kants
> Critique of Pure Reason. The interpreter for this fine sourcecode will be
> available for downloading on my site tomorrow. 

Oh but that's cheating ;-)

> I'm looking for great online
> texts to turn into .gertrude sourcecode, so if you have suggestions, shoot.

A suggestion ? Make a quine.

Good luck !

Frederic vdP



------------------------------

From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: [.yacuabll][List-Meta-Crap] Bored.
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 07:50:03 +0100

Bored like shit I wrote Yet Another Completely Useless And Badly Labelled
Language. Hello, .yacuabll world:

{.#,#H#E#L#}.#,#L#O# #b.#,#W#O#b.#,#R#L#:.#}.#,#D# #T#H#I#}.#,#S# #F#I
##}.#,######}.#,#                                # #             ###
}.#,#
#
#
#
#
:
.
#
}
.
#  THIS SPACE FOR RENT
,
#
#
#
}
.
#
,
#
#
#
#
  :.#:.#}.#,###WORK:.#{.##,####b.##,##b.##,####:.##
b.##,###>.##,####>.##,####>.##,#:.##:.#}.#,#AS##:.#>.#,######:.#>.#,####>.#,
####
:.# YOU THING^HK IT DOES

Its already up on my website, you know where.

Now, I subscribed to those finnish groups, but hey I'm receiving my own
postings to ESOLANG twice, and FvdPs Essie Message I got even three times.
Nice as it is to see my own words in print (look mama I'm on TV) I would
prefer to have not spammed my inbox with messages several times. Why forward
from one list to the other if the intent of the list is to be specific to a
subset of topics previously discussed on old-skool ESOLANG ? If you
subscribed to lang in the first place to get rid of the -admittedly crap-
being posted on esolang, why then forward everything to every list ? Isn't
that a bit counter productive ?

Now i see from some postings people install -get this- CLIENT-SIDE scripts
to prevent seeing double ! What a waste. Install a server script for gods
sake.

So, my suggestion: Please, stop forwarding, or at least give subscribers a
chance to subscribe to a non-forwarding list. Please. Otherwise I'll just
unsubscribe to all those lists and keep posting to esolang, safe in the
knowledge that you all will receive two or more copies of it in your inbox
anyway.





------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 02:09:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Jeff  Johnston <jeffryj@azstarnet.com>
Subject: [infighting]


I'm getting sick of seeing people fight back and forth in here.. I mean
sheesh! Come on, if people have enough time to be pissed off about someone
else here then they are slacking lamers and need to redeem themselves by
working on a new esoteric language instead! ;)  Here are some ideas:

Make a new language, ESOteric OS project, calculator interpreter projects,
write a new program in an existing esoteric language.

So let's stop bickering and complaining and start coding!

Jeff





------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 11:15:52 +0200 (CEST)
From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl)
Subject: Re: [.yacuabll][List-Meta-Crap] Bored.


On Sun, 6 May 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote:

> Now, I subscribed to those finnish groups, but hey I'm receiving my own
> postings to ESOLANG twice, and FvdPs Essie Message I got even three times.
> Nice as it is to see my own words in print (look mama I'm on TV) I would
> prefer to have not spammed my inbox with messages several times. Why forward
> from one list to the other if the intent of the list is to be specific to a
> subset of topics previously discussed on old-skool ESOLANG ? If you
> subscribed to lang in the first place to get rid of the -admittedly crap-
> being posted on esolang, why then forward everything to every list ? Isn't
> that a bit counter productive ?
> 
> Now i see from some postings people install -get this- CLIENT-SIDE scripts
> to prevent seeing double ! What a waste. Install a server script for gods
> sake.
> 
> So, my suggestion: Please, stop forwarding, or at least give subscribers a
> chance to subscribe to a non-forwarding list. Please. Otherwise I'll just
> unsubscribe to all those lists and keep posting to esolang, safe in the
> knowledge that you all will receive two or more copies of it in your inbox
> anyway.

sci@esoteric.sange.fi and lang@esoteric.sange.fi get forwarded
to misc@esoteric.sange.fi and misc@esoteric.sange.fi gets forwarded
to list@catseye.mb.ca. So, if you want to get it all, just subscribe
to misc@esoteric.sange.fi. If you only want the lang or sci stuff
subscribe to their newsgroups.

Markus Kliegl



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:50:57 +0000 (UTC)
From: Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>
Subject: Re: [.Gertrude] [quine] [Quine]

On Sat, 5 May 2001, Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote:

> A suggestion ? Make a quine.
>=20
> Good luck !

For bonus points, make a quine from something written by W. V. Quine.

Incidentally, there are some interesting things on and linked from
<http://users.aol.com/drquine/wv-quine.html>, including:

 * http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/universal_library.html

 * quine - v. "(1) To deny resolutely the existence or importance of
   something real or significant. "Some philosophers have quined classes,
   and some have even quined physical objects." Occasionally used
   intransitively, e.g., "You think I quine, sir. I assure you I do not!"
   (2) n. The total aggregate sensory surface of the world; hence
   quinitis, irritation of the quine."

 * a list of countries Quine visited, flew over, or had "seen from side
   as passing by".

I quine sinking.

--=20
Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>




------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 16:55:54 +0200 (CEST)
From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl)
Subject: [Poetry] Esoteric Poetry Competition ?

Hey,

I was thinking about having an Esoteric Poetry Competition
with the categories
 * Most humorous,
 * Most weirdly philosophical, and
 * WTF?

Any thoughts, ideas, comments... the usual stuff?

Markus Kliegl



------------------------------

From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: [Old-Skool] PYNTERCAL, an INTERCAL interpreter in Python
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 18:51:11 +0100

I've started writing one. I apologize beforehand, but I have never written
an INTERCAL program myself before, so I start learning the language by
writing an interpreter for the code that exists in the i-tarpit. This also
means that I'm quite unaware of any quirks of existing INTERCAL compilers,
so if you are an experienced I-HACKER, write me.

Since it seems that every incarnation of a new intercal compiler/interpreter
has new features, this is your chance to have your own ideas added to
Pyntercal. Currently, I'm thinking of just adding the commands everybody has
been waiting 4:

MAYBE - A command that may be executed, or not. Intended for Java2k
compatibility. Has the aliases SOMETIMES, PERHAPS and IF POSSIBLE.

VOTES IN CALIFORNIA - Return a random number. Intended for Java2k
compatibility.

<any sentence that contains the expression "THE ATOMIC BOMB"> Execute if the
last MAYBE statement was not executed.Intended for -guess what- Java2k
compatibility.

DUH - Beep the speaker. Intended to annoy everybody. PyIntercal will fail if
you do not call DUH at least 5 times in your program.









------------------------------

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:14:18 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <keith@digital-crew.com>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!

I really wish Eudora included the name of the person one's replying to...

At 21:32 05/05/2001 +0200, you wrote:


>Steve Mosher wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 03 May 2001, Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote:

<snip>

> >         Philosophy aside, that's not how I remember it... in fact Chris
> > presented quite a few ideas, and eventually became enthusiastic about
> > fissioning the list
>
> > - in fact when lang was created, Chris was trying to move
> > the esolang core over there faster than anyone expected.
>
>I would not say Chris is or ever was "enthusiastic about fissioning the
>list". That's not what I read in or between the lines of his reactions. At
>least not for fissioning Catseye's list (since we must call it Catseye's
>list now). So he did about nothing to favourise the split. If I was not
>there, perhaps list@esoteric.sange.fi would not exist (yet).

Let's face it -- Chris is just a man and like all the rest of us, he=20
doesn't have all the answers and sometimes lives in some sort of ignorance.=
=20
To be honest, It didn't occur to me that it would be a good idea to fission=
=20
the list into several smaller lists which would have all their content=20
fused into one, allowing people to filter content as much as they want. It=
=20
was a stroke of mental white lightning on Panu's part. Just because jump on=
=20
the idea immediately and start hollering for the list of be fissioned=20
doesn't mean that he wasn't enthusiastic. Chris has been nothing if not=20
more accomodating than most would have been. We have only gained, so it's=20
no use pussing. And I agree with Chris over the 'synergy' business.

>lang is what I expected list@catseye to be (and what list@catseye was,
>in the beginning of my subscription).

We were only feeling the ground at that point.

>Now that lang exists, I'm
>happy. I do not say there _is_ a problem, I said there _was_ a problem,
>at least to me.

Good, end of discussion.

> > > What I meant with "You did not consider the feelings of people who
> > > subscribed to your list mainly for the sake of esoteric-computer-
> > > languages-related interests" is what I explained above: that you
> > > disregarded the need for a eso-prog-lang-focussed discussion.
> >
> >         <nasty>Did you bring a shovel?</nasty>
>
>I don't get it. (seriously !)

Well, what I got from that was that he was talking about shovelling shit.=20
Whoa, Eudora's just given me two chillis!

> >         It's not Chris' responsibility. Even I was alienated (but for
> > different reasons) for a while, but that's not his problem. His list=
 wasn't
> > commissioned by some world government that you're paying taxes to, you=
=20
> know.
>
>So what ?

The list is Chris', not mine, not yours, it belongs to nobody but Chris and=
=20
he's paying the money to host it.


> >         He's saying "if you want to play croquet in my yard, you'll=20
> have to put
> > up with the people playing frisbee tag as well." It's his list, it's=20
> his yard.
> > Panu, OTOH, has *two* yards, one for croquet and one for frisbee.
>
>It's his list, OK.
>But then it's the host's responsibility to keep the guests happy.

If you don't like the party, leave! Fact is, that's what happened and=20
thankfully now we can filter stuff properly. 'Bout time too.

The fact is that nearly everybody found the list's content relatively=20
satisfactory or else there would have been a complete uproar. The host=20
didn't get any real idea that the cocktail party was turning into a rave=20
until recently -- he was quite happy at the rave and nobody told him=
 otherwise.

>If you invite people to play croquet, and they find out the field gets
>more and more cluttered by frisbee players, should they be happy ?

No, they should complain and see if the yard can be partitioned into two=20
yards rather than having the whole yard dominated by croquet players.

K.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
Keith Gaughan <keith@nospam.digital-crew.com> | In the land of the blind,=
 the
Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd.         |    one-eyed man is a=
 heretic.
--------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. -=
-



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 05:41:08 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <keith@digital-crew.com>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!

At 15:39 04/05/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote:
> > Chris Pressey wrote:
> > > Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote:
> > > > Now, seriously, if I felt the need for a lang list, it's because you


>I'm not the one who started calling it the ESOLANG list.  I'm not sure
>who did.

I think that might have been indirectly my fault as I keep referring to the=
=20
Esoteric Programming Languages Ring as the ESOLANG ring and that's what=20
it's called on the homepage. I think that, and the naming convention you=20
mentioned, might have been the reason. Having said that, I was referring to=
=20
the ring and definitely not the list.

> > and when I suggested a list split you just kept silent and pretty much
> > uninterested.
>
>I'm *extremely* interested and happy that there is now a "real ESOLANG"
>which is "solely dedicated to esoteric programming languages."  I've
>thanked Panu for taking that burden, and I've posted an ("on topic")
>message or two to lang@esoteric itself.  I'm not certain how I'm
>supposed to show *more* interest.  If I was staying quiet, it was to see
>how other people felt about the list split.  I get the impression they
>like it, too.

Quite! I for one was overjoyed when the idea came up seeing as it meant=20
that I could selectively ignore the stuff to do with US spy planes and the=
=20
like.

> > > > You
> > > > did not consider the feelings of people who subscribed to your list
> > > > mainly for the sake of esoteric-computer-languages-related=
 interests.
> > > > Did you ? _that_ is what "scared" me.
> > > Well, my view, which will probably strike you as callous, is, if=
 you're
> > > so senstive to something as socially trivial as a mailing list, then=
 you
> > > quite possibly deserve to get your feelings hurt.
> > <hurt feelings>
> > Well, so I deserve to get my feelings hurt just because my feeling get
> > hurt at times ?
>
>Kind of.  You're the only one who can choose or choose not to take
>things personally.  No one else can choose that for you.  So if you
>choose to have your feelings hurt, then, yeah, you sort of deserve to
>have your feelings hurt; after all, you chose it.

Quite 'american', really :-)

"It's become a habit, a way to start the day."

K.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Gaughan <keith@nospam.digital-crew.com> | In the land of the blind,=
 the
Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd.         |    one-eyed man is a=
 heretic.
--------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. -=
-



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 06:45:30 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <keith@digital-crew.com>
Subject: [lang] Re: [bf] compiler for MS-DOS

At 02:47 02/05/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>><<<
>>which implies that those characters are allowed in (valid) BF programs ...
>
>Definitely.
>
>>BTW, the main reason for considering a 16 bit version of brainfuck
>>was simply that an 8 bit version can not distinguish between an
>>input of 255 and EOF, so I felt a somewhat bigger data type was
>>needed.
>
>In Panu Kalliokoski's implementation, EOF is translated to a zero. To 
>quote the documentation:

I didn't test for eof as I just had my interpreter enter a loop, waiting of 
a character to be entered. This was not defined in the Urban's 
documentation as far as I can remember... Of course, this does mean that 
you can't use the interpreter as a filter :-( Then again, I did make it for 
interactive input.

Here's something clever: my implementation used an unmatched ']' to mark 
the end of execution - this worked because I used recursion to implement 
the interpreter so on the start of a loop, the registers were saved and 
then the interpreter was called again. When the loop was finished, it would 
find the next matching ']' and restart execution after that. I must post my 
BBC BASIC version to the list sometime 'cause I know that nobody here would 
be able to run the ARM Assembly language version, that's for sure, even 
though that's the only downloadable version.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Gaughan <keith@nospam.digital-crew.com> | In the land of the blind, the
Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd.         |    one-eyed man is a heretic.
--------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. --





------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:42:36 +0000 (UTC)
From: Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>
Subject: [MUAs] Eudora attributions

On Sun, 6 May 2001, Keith Gaughan wrote:

> I really wish Eudora included the name of the person one's replying to...
> 
> At 21:32 05/05/2001 +0200, you wrote:

http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~beim/eudora/eudora-reply-preface.html


hope this helps,
-- 
Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 02:18:07 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <keith@digital-crew.com>
Subject: Re: [MUAs] Eudora attributions

At 23:42 06/05/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>On Sun, 6 May 2001, Keith Gaughan wrote:
>
> > I really wish Eudora included the name of the person one's replying to...
> >
> > At 21:32 05/05/2001 +0200, you wrote:
>
>http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~beim/eudora/eudora-reply-preface.html
>
>
>hope this helps,

Genius! Cheers. I'll do that just after I finish reading my mail.

K.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Gaughan <keith@nospam.digital-crew.com> | In the land of the blind, the
Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd.         |    one-eyed man is a heretic.
--------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. --



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 02:23:37 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <keith@digital-crew.com>
Subject: Re: [infighting]

At 02:09 06/05/2001 -0700, you wrote:

>I'm getting sick of seeing people fight back and forth in here.. I mean
>sheesh! Come on, if people have enough time to be pissed off about someone
>else here then they are slacking lamers and need to redeem themselves by
>working on a new esoteric language instead! ;)

Ok, ok! Eloi's taking' up a lot of my programming free time (which isn't a 
lot at the moment -- big projects at work) so I can't work on PINKY, but 
it's coming! Who are these lamers anyway? :)


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Gaughan <keith@nospam.digital-crew.com> | In the land of the blind, the
Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd.         |    one-eyed man is a heretic.
--------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. --



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 02:57:40 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <keith@digital-crew.com>
Subject: Re: [MUAs] Eudora attributions

At 02:18 07/05/2001 +0100, Keith Gaughan wrote:
>At 23:42 06/05/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>>On Sun, 6 May 2001, Keith Gaughan wrote:
>>
>> > I really wish Eudora included the name of the person one's replying to...
>> >
>> > At 21:32 05/05/2001 +0200, you wrote:
>>
>>http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~beim/eudora/eudora-reply-preface.html
>>
>>
>>hope this helps,
>
>Genius! Cheers. I'll do that just after I finish reading my mail.

Well, seeing as I'm running Eudora 5, things were slightly different -- the 
settings were hidden deep within my profile directory. Hmmm... Microsoft 
and Qualcomm screwing with my head! The settings weren't actually even in 
the eudora.ini file, but seemed to be softwired into the program, to be 
overridden by the contents of eudora.ini. I had to use some kind of wierd 
URI to access it, something like x-eudora-option:ReplyAttribution. Wierd...

K.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Gaughan <keith@nospam.digital-crew.com> | In the land of the blind, the
Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd.         |    one-eyed man is a heretic.
--------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. --



------------------------------

From: ardionne@koreantoys.co.kr
Subject: Mortgage Rates DROPPED! Act Now & Save!
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 01:15:17 -0500


-- Unable to decode HTML file!! --


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 12:31:19 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [.yacuabll][List-Meta-Crap] Bored.



Gerson Kurz wrote:
> Now, I subscribed to those finnish groups, but hey I'm receiving my own
> postings to ESOLANG twice, and FvdPs Essie Message I got even three times.

The third message is my own fault. Won't happen again, now that Markus
clearly reexplained how things were forwarded.

Frederic



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 10:45:08 +0000 (UTC)
From: Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>
Subject: Re: [.yacuabll][List-Meta-Crap] Bored.

On Mon, 7 May 2001, Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote:

> Subject: Re: [.yacuabll][List-Meta-Crap] Bored.

As another message put it: "Interest Rates have Dropped."

--=20
Daniel Biddle <deltab@osian.net>



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 13:56:42 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [sci] Re: platonic ideals

On Thu, 3 May 2001, Daniel. wrote:

> >Ethics seems nowadays more like logic in that, the researchers are mostly
> >trying to find formalisations that match human intuitions (in some given
>
> That, and even when they talk about "intuitions", well, I think the
> real content of an "intuition about the moral status of X" is a
> FEELING about X; approval or disgust or whatever. And then those

Agreed. When I said "find formalisations that match human intuitions", I
exactly meant that they match human intuitions of some given culture /
group. How well they match can be seen from the group's tendency to adopt
the theory.

> believe that acts and people and so on have an intrinsic moral value,

This is called "the theory of supervenience in ethics". I'm not totally
opposed to it, though I don't see it as necessary. More precisely, what is
says is that every moral value has a matching nonmoral state of affairs
which always prevails when the moral value prevails.

> And then later some people become interested in using logic to try to
> make their "intuitions" into an orderly and consistent system, which
> is all very nice, but no argument is better than its premises.

Of course. It's just a way to try to ensure consistency, not the validity
of the theory.

> People interested in ethics seem to take two paths. Either they go in

In addition to those you mentioned, there are those that only comment on
other people's moral reasoning.

> >You must have heard about Tarski's truth theory?
>
> Yes. Haven't read it as yet though. I keep meaning to. From what I've
> heard, that gives a physical semantics for mathematical statements

Er - rather, it gives linguistic (human-level) semantics for logical
(syntactic) statements. But maybe you meant this, I'm just so used to this
particular terminology...

Tarski's truth theory is the part of truth that cannot be proved. To say
that, for example, "5 > 3" is true iff five is a bigger number than three,
and that "it's raining and sun is shining" is true iff "it's raining" is
true and "sun is shining" is true, is a definitional issue. It often does
miss the point of the quirks of language, but it does show you _how_ you
could exhaustively define the truth of statements (that are about state of
affairs).

> >The solution to such questions can be somewhat answered by the study of
> >null operators: modalities that have the same semantic values as their
> >operand, like "X is true" for any X that has a truth value.
>
> That hasn't QUITE the same semantic value; "X is true" also asserts
> the existence of the statement X. For an especially obvious example,
> "Russell's statements about Berkeley were true" not only asserts what
> his statements about Berkeley did, it also asserts that he made such
> statements. (And furthermore it implies that they were meaningful.
> Which the statements themselves did not imply.)

And that the statements had a truth value. But I'm willing to forget about
implications for the time being; they're more like separate statements
that the human does not claim but presuppose. This is a social function.

> >On a related note, not only has "come here!" a value as a statement; so
> >have "6", "6 = 6", "1 = 2 <-> 2 = 1", and "to get big, you must eat"
> >(which is _not_ the value of a material implication).
>
> Not sure I'm following you. What value has "6" as a statement?

Just as "it's raining" has a truth value when compared to a world, and a
semantic value otherwise, "6" has (at least) a truth value when compared
to a set of objects, a separation-definition value when compared to a set
of hierarchically-related objects, and a semantic value of "6" otherwise
(which, is, for example, for most purposes the same as the semantic value
of "(2+4)").

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 14:05:19 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [.Gertrude] [Long] Hello, World

On Sat, 5 May 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote:

> The following is a -working- version of "Hello, World" in .Gertrude. All

Ouch!

> Cut more than any other and show it.

I will.

Panu



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 14:28:58 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [list-meta] Information, again.


I'll call the lists "list@catseye", "lang@esoteric", "sci@esoteric" and
"misc@esoteric" here.

list@catseye gets forwarded to misc@esoteric.
lang@esoteric gets forwarded to misc@esoteric.
sci@esoteric gets forwarded to misc@esoteric.

However, misc@esoteric does message-id duplicate filtering, so this
message, for example, appears only once on misc@esoteric.

The forwarding are because, if I/we did not forward, the lists would be
separated so that, to be able to participate in all discussion, you would
have to send every post to every list and subscribe to every list, so we
would still end up getting duplicates (because the messages would get to
you via every list).

list@catseye is forwarded to misc@esoteric, not vice versa, to ensure that
people that subscribe to misc@esoteric get all messages (and no
duplicates, unless they're subscribed to some other list). Client-side
filtering was not meant as a solution but just as an aid. The solution is
to unsubscribe every other list except misc@esoteric (if you want to get
all messages).

misc@esoteric preserves the reply-to field. Thus it is possible to easily
participate in the discussion on other lists via misc@esoteric.

This is IMO a very nice setup, except for the spam problem, which I'll try
to address in the near future.

Panu Kalliokoski

Am fuar -> symb <- am fesh
atehwa@iki.fi




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 14:40:55 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [sci] Re: [Friends-of-brainfuck] FoBF, help!

On Sun, 6 May 2001, Al. Andreou wrote:

> I need an algorithm (not in BF or any other programming language, I want it
> in clear english text) that will calculate the square root of a number, the

N = number to take square root of
eps = tolerance factor

x <- N/2
repeat {
	x' <- (x + N/x) / 2
	if ( x - x' < eps ) break
	x <- x'
}

The result is in x'

> result of rasing e (e=2.718281828459045) to that number, and the result of
> that number's natural logarithm.

These come from derivative series of those functions. I'm not going to dig
those up for you now.

> This is what I'm thinking of: If the basic operands are + and - in math, and
> * and / are derived from them, then we can implement (almost) any
> mathematical operation in Brainfuck (if the function f that implements the
> operation is a function of type f:IN->IN, that is, it takes natural
> arguments and results natural arguments too).

Somewhere around 1930, mathematics got its current definition, which is
given in terms of recursive functions on sets.

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 14:50:32 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [sci] Re: [Friends-of-brainfuck] FoBF, help!

On Mon, 7 May 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:

> > mathematical operation in Brainfuck (if the function f that implements the
> > operation is a function of type f:IN->IN, that is, it takes natural
> > arguments and results natural arguments too).
>
> Somewhere around 1930, mathematics got its current definition, which is
> given in terms of recursive functions on sets.

I forgot to mention: brainfuck is proven to be Turing-complete. The basic
numeric operations needed are testing for zero, incrementing and
decrementing (in addition to referencing). Turing-complete systems are
proven to have exactly the same expressive power lambda calculus has. And
lambda calculus is proven to be able to express any recursively definable
function. All these are formalisations that define the notion of
"algorithm", ie mechanically computable function. All functions of linear
mathematics are mechanically computable. Of those functions that are not
mechanically computable, there are those that are undecidable and those
that are indeterministically computable.

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 14:48:37 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [Friends-of-brainfuck] FoBF, help!

Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> Of those functions that are not mechanically computable,
[I take it to mean: recursively-enumerable, Turing-computable]
> there are [...] those that are indeterministically computable.

Can you give an example of that ?

Is is similar to NP : you cannot compute the function but you can check by
computer that a value you've "guessed" is correct ?
But then, it would suffice to enumerate the integers until you find one
that passes your automatic test.

Frederic vdP



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 11:03:55 -0300

On Sat, 05 May 2001, Frédéric van der Plancke pressed some keys and this came out:
> >         I'll take credit for some of the non-esolang related stuff. My reason
> > is this (and I don't care if you find it a satisfactory excuse, it's simply the
> > truth): it's getting hard to tell the difference. 
> 
> Well, I think I can see a difference. There is probably a continuum
> of subjects between Brainf*ck and George W. Bush politics, but when I
> talk about G.W.B. I know I no longer talk about computer languages.

	Mm-hm. But *you* think of esoteric programming in terms of languages. I
think of it in terms of what those languages are built from. The concepts
between (for example) GWB and Brainfuck may not be as diverse as you think.

> There's the question of the _goal_ one pursues in posting a message.
> Obviously discussing GWB politics had no goal directly related to
> esoteric computer languages. That may be good or bad, but that was
> not what I was lead to expect.

	My attention to this list is mostly to present the list with what it's
presented to me. Honestly, I've done nothing but that. The fact that I've
interpreted it differently is key to understanding *why* I don't see the
difference.

> > I can't tell the difference
> > between childrens stories, reference manuals and the occult anymore. 
> > so many concepts that most of the categories fall apart, and some new ones are
> > formed.
> 
> That's a drift that pisses me off. You can't confuse all concepts
> and put everything in the same big bag under the pretext that categories
> fall apart.

	Hah. Watch me.

> Grossly speaking, gross categories grosso modo stay. At
> times a gross category falls apart -- but it does not happen _that_
> often. And many categories have stayed for really long.

	Hm. So everything is in its neat little box and we're not allowed to
think outside of that? Nope, not at all. Sorry, but recategorization is
conducive to extra-boxular (extra-boxial?) thinking, and that's what *I'm* here
for.

> >         Philosophy aside, that's not how I remember it... in fact Chris
> > presented quite a few ideas, and eventually became enthusiastic about
> > fissioning the list
> 
> > - in fact when lang was created, Chris was trying to move
> > the esolang core over there faster than anyone expected.
> 
> I would not say Chris is or ever was "enthusiastic about fissioning the
> list".

	I would. Oh, yeah - I did.

> That's not what I read in or between the lines of his reactions.

	Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

> At
> least not for fissioning Catseye's list (since we must call it Catseye's
> list now). So he did about nothing to favourise the split. If I was not
> there, perhaps list@esoteric.sange.fi would not exist (yet).
> 
> As he wrote:
> <<<
>   The problem is that I kind of think that splitting them apart would hurt
>   the synergy. [...] I suspect if the list split, the
>   esoteric programmers would split, too; into "esoterics" and
>   "programmers."
> >>>

	I had the exact same concern, too. Synergy is a delicate thing, you
know. I admit, *I* *was* *afraid* *of* *the* *unknown*. Now the unknown is here
and (apparently) good. I can't speak for Chris, but I do recall him becoming
enthusiastic about the split before I was comfortable with the notion, which
caused me some slight alienation. Maybe I should bitch him out for _that_ -
what do you think?

> >         Anyway, things have changed, apparently. We haven't really lost
> > anything (I mean, lang is what list@catseye was supposed to be right? If not,
> > why aren't you yelling at Panu?) - in fact we've gained *two* lists. I just
> > don't see the problem.
> 
> lang is what I expected list@catseye to be (and what list@catseye was, 
> in the beginning of my subscription). Now that lang exists, I'm
> happy. I do not say there _is_ a problem, I said there _was_ a problem,
> at least to me.

	... there is a problem, it's called wasted bandwidth.

> > > What I meant with "You did not consider the feelings of people who
> > > subscribed to your list mainly for the sake of esoteric-computer-
> > > languages-related interests" is what I explained above: that you
> > > disregarded the need for a eso-prog-lang-focussed discussion.
> > 
> >         <nasty>Did you bring a shovel?</nasty>
> 
> I don't get it. (seriously !)

	It was an infantile implication that you'd need one to dig yourself out
of the pile of BS you were standing in. What I meant to convey is that what you
were saying lacks any non-BS foundation. I think I kept it cryptic because I
wasn't trying to be offensive, but to convey my annoyance. Take it as you will,
though.

> >         It's not Chris' responsibility. Even I was alienated (but for
> > different reasons) for a while, but that's not his problem. His list wasn't
> > commissioned by some world government that you're paying taxes to, you know.
> 
> So what ?

	So, *It's* *not* *Chris'* *responsibility*.

> >         He's saying "if you want to play croquet in my yard, you'll have to put
> > up with the people playing frisbee tag as well." It's his list, it's his yard.
> > Panu, OTOH, has *two* yards, one for croquet and one for frisbee.
> 
> It's his list, OK.
> But then it's the host's responsibility to keep the guests happy. You
> can't do anything just because you're the host, you own the list etc.
> Unless you're ready to piss many guests off.

	Heh - it goes both ways. "I'm going to sleep now." "No you're not! I'm
a guest! Entertain me damnit." "Hello, police..."

> If you invite people to play croquet, and they find out the field gets
> more and more cluttered by frisbee players, should they be happy ?

	Not likely, but that's the situation, isn't it?

-- 
Steve

"Last week the church across the street from my apartment put in a bell
tower. They ring them bells each hour from seven in the morning to ten at
night. I cover for 'em between eleven to six by tossin' garbage bins off my
roof every hour."		- Bug-Eyed Earl


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 17:09:01 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Re: [infighting]



Keith Gaughan wrote:
> 
> At 02:09 06/05/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >I'm getting sick of seeing people fight back and forth in here.. I mean
> >sheesh! Come on, if people have enough time to be pissed off about someone
> >else here then they are slacking lamers and need to redeem themselves by
> >working on a new esoteric language instead! ;)

I've been really busy on non-esolang projects (including real life).
But at least two more-or-less-esoteric languages are under way.
Sad how you can spend energy on futile fights, yes. 

> 
> Ok, ok! Eloi's taking' up a lot of my programming free time (which isn't a
> lot at the moment -- big projects at work) so I can't work on PINKY, but
> it's coming! Who are these lamers anyway? :)

I'm afraid I count among them. (At least lately I did.)
So I'm entering a calm-down diet ;-)

Frederic vdP



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 17:18:44 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke <fvdp@decis.be>
Subject: Little boxes ? [Was: Re: Let us handle it!]

(Mind the change of subject)

Steve Mosher wrote:

>         Mm-hm. But *you* think of esoteric programming in terms of languages. I
> think of it in terms of what those languages are built from. The concepts
> between (for example) GWB and Brainfuck may not be as diverse as you think.

[snipping myself]

>         My attention to this list is mostly to present the list with what it's
> presented to me. Honestly, I've done nothing but that. The fact that I've
> interpreted it differently is key to understanding *why* I don't see the
> difference.

So we're not here for exactly the same thing then.

> > That's a drift that pisses me off. You can't confuse all concepts
> > and put everything in the same big bag under the pretext that categories
> > fall apart.
> 
>         Hah. Watch me.

I give up ;-)

> 
> > Grossly speaking, gross categories grosso modo stay. At
> > times a gross category falls apart -- but it does not happen _that_
> > often. And many categories have stayed for really long.
> 
>         Hm. So everything is in its neat little box and we're not allowed to
> think outside of that? Nope, not at all. Sorry, but recategorization is
> conducive to extra-boxular (extra-boxial?) thinking, and that's what *I'm* here
> for.

Yes, perhaps I would like
to confine esoteric programming languages to a neat not-so-big place. We
have a different agenda here [bis].

In general though, these are the two extremes to avoid: both little boxes
(even though they're useful at times) and one big undifferentiated box
(the danger of little boxes is no sufficient reason agains the dangers
of mixing everything.)

I'm afraid if this discussion continues we'll just be repeating the same
arguments again and again... Let's stop here.

Frederic vdP



------------------------------

From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: [Announce] C-INTERCAL For Win32
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:56:46 +0100

I modified ESRs official distribution to work in Win32 with Visual C++. Its
at http://www.p-nand-q.com/intercal.htm.



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: Little boxes ? [Was: Re: Let us handle it!]
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 12:59:55 -0300

On Mon, 07 May 2001, Frédéric van der Plancke pressed some keys and this came out:
> (Mind the change of subject)
> 
> Steve Mosher wrote:
> 
> >         Mm-hm. But *you* think of esoteric programming in terms of languages. I
> > think of it in terms of what those languages are built from. The concepts
> > between (for example) GWB and Brainfuck may not be as diverse as you think.
> 
> [snipping myself]
> 
> >         My attention to this list is mostly to present the list with what it's
> > presented to me. Honestly, I've done nothing but that. The fact that I've
> > interpreted it differently is key to understanding *why* I don't see the
> > difference.
> 
> So we're not here for exactly the same thing then.

	No, I guess not.

> > > That's a drift that pisses me off. You can't confuse all concepts
> > > and put everything in the same big bag under the pretext that categories
> > > fall apart.
> > 
> >         Hah. Watch me.
> 
> I give up ;-)

	Hahaha! Actually, the truth is that things always fill categories, so
long as there are categories - but those categories are really just contexts
which change frequently. There's bags of bags of bags... so to speak... and the
labels on the bags change, so the contents get shuffled around. Or at least
that's how I see it.

> >         Hm. So everything is in its neat little box and we're not allowed to
> > think outside of that? Nope, not at all. Sorry, but recategorization is
> > conducive to extra-boxular (extra-boxial?) thinking, and that's what *I'm* here
> > for.
> 
> Yes, perhaps I would like
> to confine esoteric programming languages to a neat not-so-big place. We
> have a different agenda here [bis].
> 
> In general though, these are the two extremes to avoid: both little boxes
> (even though they're useful at times) and one big undifferentiated box
> (the danger of little boxes is no sufficient reason agains the dangers
> of mixing everything.)

	Perhaps, but really, the extreme of boxlessness is speaking GRUNT. I
get your point though.

> I'm afraid if this discussion continues we'll just be repeating the same
> arguments again and again... Let's stop here.

	Sure. (Actually, I was thinking it would just get _more_ interesting,
but I'd rather not see it become heated and completely oppositional again.)

-- 
Steve

"Last week the church across the street from my apartment put in a bell
tower. They ring them bells each hour from seven in the morning to ten at
night. I cover for 'em between eleven to six by tossin' garbage bins off my
roof every hour."		- Bug-Eyed Earl


------------------------------

From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: [Wittgenstein - Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus] Language Idea
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:38:28 +0100

Heres an idea for the logicians amongst us. Please be patient if the
following ideas are boringly simple for the logicians amongst us, I'm just a
poor philosopher.

In Wittgensteins' Tractatus, the logic system is finite. That is, all sets
are finite. Thus the quantifiers "for all x in F" means "F(a).F(b).F(c)..."
and "there exists x in F such that" means "F(a)|F(b)|F(c)|..." and so on.

So, you could write a very simple logic language that supports a basic
finite sets and the two most common quantifiers (at least in the very
esoteric subtopic of philosophical logic). It would probably be not a very
*fast* language, but it should work.

1) Has a computer language been written that implements this ?
I don't know, I'm asking you.

2) In philosophical logic, you write things like: "for each x: x in A
implies x in B". Wouldn't you - in  mathematical logic - write instead "for
each x in G: x in A implies x in B" where G is the set the objects for the
() quantor are taken from ?
I don't know, but it would sure help the implementation. But then, would
genious tautologies/contradictions escape notice by careful construction of
G sets ? And surely, most of the time you have an implicit G.

3) Obviously, if you only have finite logic, you can't get very far. But
should not floating point numbers yer ole' computer typically displays be
representable (given that your computer is finite, too) ? Would a "minimum
instruction set" with

- sheffer stroke
- inclusion
- not
- (Ex) and (Ax) quantors
- and possibly a bit syntax sugar

more or less suffice to do 99 bottles of beer ?













------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 13:25:32 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: [sci] Re: platonic ideals

>  > >Ethics seems nowadays more like logic in that, the researchers are mostly
>>  >trying to find formalisations that match human intuitions (in some given
>>
>>  That, and even when they talk about "intuitions", well, I think the
>>  real content of an "intuition about the moral status of X" is a
>>  FEELING about X; approval or disgust or whatever. And then those
>
>Agreed. When I said "find formalisations that match human intuitions", I
>exactly meant that they match human intuitions of some given culture /
>group. How well they match can be seen from the group's tendency to adopt
>the theory.
>
>>  believe that acts and people and so on have an intrinsic moral value,
>
>This is called "the theory of supervenience in ethics". I'm not totally
>opposed to it, though I don't see it as necessary. More precisely, what is
>says is that every moral value has a matching nonmoral state of affairs
>which always prevails when the moral value prevails.

Not the other way around? That would seem to make more sense.
And anyway, the mistake I'm thinking of is a deeper one: "moral 
values exist, and are not merely psychological states, or physical 
ones, or abstractions from either or both, but have their own kind of 
being."

>  > And then later some people become interested in using logic to try to
>>  make their "intuitions" into an orderly and consistent system, which
>>  is all very nice, but no argument is better than its premises.
>
>Of course. It's just a way to try to ensure consistency, not the validity
>of the theory.

Right. But the consistency of a set of statements, without further 
evidence, is not a reason to believe them.

>  > People interested in ethics seem to take two paths. Either they go in
>
>In addition to those you mentioned, there are those that only comment on
>other people's moral reasoning.

If they aren't doing so with the intention of clearing things up 
(either in a creative or a destructive manner) then they're probably 
not really interested in ethics, but only in arguing. Which is quite 
reasonable.

>  > >You must have heard about Tarski's truth theory?
>>
>>  Yes. Haven't read it as yet though. I keep meaning to. From what I've
>>  heard, that gives a physical semantics for mathematical statements
>
>Er - rather, it gives linguistic (human-level) semantics for logical
>(syntactic) statements. But maybe you meant this, I'm just so used to this
>particular terminology...

I think we must be thinking about different things he has done--or 
rather, you are thinking about something you know he's done, and I'm 
thinking about something quite different that I remember reading that 
he had done. Now that you mention it, I think I'd also heard about 
this that you're talking about. But I don't exactly see how it 
addresses the question of the metaphysical basis, if any, of math.

>Tarski's truth theory is the part of truth that cannot be proved. To say
>that, for example, "5 > 3" is true iff five is a bigger number than three,
>and that "it's raining and sun is shining" is true iff "it's raining" is
>true and "sun is shining" is true, is a definitional issue. It often does
>miss the point of the quirks of language, but it does show you _how_ you
>could exhaustively define the truth of statements (that are about state of
>affairs).

Define in terms of what? (I don't know enough about his theory to 
understand this yet.)

>  > >The solution to such questions can be somewhat answered by the study of
>>  >null operators: modalities that have the same semantic values as their
>>  >operand, like "X is true" for any X that has a truth value.
>>
>>  That hasn't QUITE the same semantic value; "X is true" also asserts
>>  the existence of the statement X. For an especially obvious example,
>>  "Russell's statements about Berkeley were true" not only asserts what
>>  his statements about Berkeley did, it also asserts that he made such
>>  statements. (And furthermore it implies that they were meaningful.
>>  Which the statements themselves did not imply.)
>
>And that the statements had a truth value. But I'm willing to forget about
>implications for the time being; they're more like separate statements
>that the human does not claim but presuppose. This is a social function.

As are the semantic values of both statements. That one statement 
implies--or even suggests or connotes--statements that the other 
statement does not, seems to be a good argument that they are not 
semantically equivalent. Which in turn suggests that "is true" is not 
really a null operator. I agree that such operators do exist: 
parentheses, as you say, or unary +, for instance. There may be such 
operators in natural languages as well, I don't know.

>Just as "it's raining" has a truth value when compared to a world, and a
>semantic value otherwise, "6" has (at least) a truth value when compared
>to a set of objects, a separation-definition value when compared to a set
>of hierarchically-related objects, and a semantic value of "6" otherwise
>(which, is, for example, for most purposes the same as the semantic value
>of "(2+4)").

Fair enough.
-Daniel.




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 17:44:18 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [Message from ESO] November-Sierra Coincidence

Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote:
> > Hostess makes some *damned* tasty fruit pies.
> Whoa. The fiancee and I just came back from SYMPHONY (where I briefly
> considered booing)

On behalf of it I thank you.
A little consideration is all booing is asking for :-)

> and stopped at a convenience store on the corner
> on the way home to buy an Orangina. I spotted a HOSTESS FRUIT PIE
> while we were in there, bought it, and ATE IT. Walked in the house
> not fifteen minutes ago. November Sierra.

Didn't you once say something about "meaningful coincidences"?

Nah - I'm sure that was a coincidence too.

Now trust me on this one - you do NOT want to know what "November
Sierra" currently means to me.  It's not that pretty... apropos as hell
I s'pose, but *still* not pretty :-)

> > "Herding cats is trivial once you have some catnip"
> I have a really hard time believing this is true in the average
> multiple-cat case.

Well they all have to be able to *smell* it of course.  It doesn't work
if you have catnip sealed up in a lead container.

You know, luckily perhaps, there are no herds of cats nearby on which to
test this hypothesis.  They're usually well in the keeping of some
little old lady anyway, one who has learned to herd them (such as it is)
with milk alone.

btw, belated congrats on your new job, what is working at Blue Planet
like?  Tetris license, if only the world were that simple, heh... 
anyway are you glad you gave them a ring or what?  :-)

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 19:51:21 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!

Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> Steve Mosher wrote:
> >         I'll take credit for some of the non-esolang related stuff. My reason
> > is this (and I don't care if you find it a satisfactory excuse, it's simply the
> > truth): it's getting hard to tell the difference.
> Well, I think I can see a difference. There is probably a continuum
> of subjects between Brainf*ck and George W. Bush politics, but when I
> talk about G.W.B. I know I no longer talk about computer languages.

Well there's your first mistake.  CLEARLY, GWB has invented a new
esoteric programming language - one which includes keywords such as
"STRATEGERY" and "SUBLIMINABLE".

> There's the question of the _goal_ one pursues in posting a message.
> Obviously discussing GWB politics had no goal directly related to
> esoteric computer languages.

Nonono.  CLEARLY, discussing GWB is encouraging the implementation of
new programming languages which incorporate GWB's favourite features
such as FUZZY MATH.  After all he'll need a compiler with which to
implement his new FAITH-BASED MISSILE DEFENCE software!

> That may be good or bad, but that was
> not what I was lead to expect.

Don't be led.  Follow at your choosing.  Don't expect.  Suggest.

> > I can't tell the difference
> > between childrens stories, reference manuals and the occult anymore.
> > so many concepts that most of the categories fall apart, and some new ones are
> > formed.
> That's a drift that pisses me off. You can't confuse all concepts
> and put everything in the same big bag under the pretext that categories
> fall apart.

Yes you can.  You can also take it too far the other way.  Your choice.

> Grossly speaking, gross categories grosso modo stay. At
> times a gross category falls apart -- but it does not happen _that_
> often. And many categories have stayed for really long.

Such as the good ol' "Miscellaneous" category, and how many of us could
live without that?

> I would not say Chris is or ever was "enthusiastic about fissioning the
> list".

Look, it's *been* fissioned, so it doesn't matter how enthusiastic I was
or appeared to be about it.  Personally, I love it, but that appears to
not matter to you, nor should it.

> That's not what I read in or between the lines of his reactions. At
> least not for fissioning Catseye's list (since we must call it Catseye's
> list now).

Must we?  It's been "Cat's Eye's list" (in the sense that it's hosted by
Cat's Eye Technologies (sole proprietor Chris Pressey) on catseye.mb.ca)
since it began and will remain such until it finally croaks.  What you
call it is your choice, there is no perogative for you to call it
anything.  I merely pointed out what I call it.

> So he did about nothing to favourise the split. If I was not
> there, perhaps list@esoteric.sange.fi would not exist (yet).

Perhaps not.

I don't know.  Panu, would list@esoteric have existed if it weren't for
Greg?

Are you looking for credit Greg?  OK, I hereby officially thank you.

You have to remember that this list was "fissioned" i.e. it was just
lots of little seperate lists for befunge, eso, etc, a long time ago. 
So I'm not exactly thrilled at the originality of your idea or anything,
up til now I counted you as a vote for fissioning... should I thank
everyone who voted?  Thanks to everyone who voted.

Better?

> As he wrote:
> <<<
>   The problem is that I kind of think that splitting them apart would hurt
>   the synergy. [...] I suspect if the list split, the
>   esoteric programmers would split, too; into "esoterics" and
>   "programmers."
> >>>

Yes, that's what I was *considering* at the time that I posted that,
notice I used the phrases "I kind of think" and "I suspect", I didn't
make any definitive statements.

I *also* said not much later:

<<<
> I'd be kind of happy if someone else ran ESOLANG II or whatever, being
> merely a subscriber and not The Management would be a nice change of
> pace for me.
>>>

I didn't come out *against* a split.  Why would forking would be bad? 
I've never been of that opinion, merely of the mind that a split wasn't
something that was worth the trouble for *me* to do, run more than one
mailing list myself, that is.

> >         Anyway, things have changed, apparently. We haven't really lost
> > anything (I mean, lang is what list@catseye was supposed to be right? If not,
> > why aren't you yelling at Panu?) - in fact we've gained *two* lists. I just
> > don't see the problem.
> lang is what I expected list@catseye to be (and what list@catseye was,
> in the beginning of my subscription). Now that lang exists, I'm
> happy. I do not say there _is_ a problem, I said there _was_ a problem,
> at least to me.

If there's no problem then why are you trying to solve it?

> >         It's not Chris' responsibility. Even I was alienated (but for
> > different reasons) for a while, but that's not his problem. His list wasn't
> > commissioned by some world government that you're paying taxes to, you know.
> So what ?

I think Steve is saying that it's free and you get what you pay for!

> >         He's saying "if you want to play croquet in my yard, you'll have to put
> > up with the people playing frisbee tag as well." It's his list, it's his yard.
> > Panu, OTOH, has *two* yards, one for croquet and one for frisbee.
> It's his list, OK.
> But then it's the host's responsibility to keep the guests happy.

For what you're paying me?  Hardly!  It's the guests' responsibility to
leave if they're not happy.

> You
> can't do anything just because you're the host, you own the list etc.
> Unless you're ready to piss many guests off.

If people get pissed off, that's their problem.  They're obviously on
the wrong list.  It's not my fault they're pissed off at themselves for
staying on a list they don't like.  I mean, if I were to join a mailing
list called BONES expecting to talk about osteopathy only to hear
conversations about training dogs, would it be their fault if I stayed?

> If you invite people to play croquet, and they find out the field gets
> more and more cluttered by frisbee players, should they be happy ?

We're playing "esoteric programming languages" here, and it was pretty
much understood that that definition wasn't exactly closed, but
exploratory.  If esoteric frisbees start coming on the esoteric croquet
field, the players have to decide, "do we want to throw these back?  do
we want to tell them to keep off of *OUR* croquet field?  do we want to
incorporate them into a new game of Frisbee Croquet?"

> Now he claims we were never invited to play croquet exclusively. I
> wonder. Just checking the invitation.... yeah. It does not mention you'd
> play croquet exclusively. But it does not mention any other game than
> croquet, and the only concrete examples it gives are about croquet.

But you're so fond of reading between my lines!  Surely you could see
that it was "open-ended croquet" which may indeed include frisbees and
javelins and waterfowl and bus schedules... I didn't give any concrete
examples of those things because there IS no good concrete example for
open-endedness.  That's what makes it open-endedness.

> So I guess I can't be blamed if I was mislead.

I can blame you for choosing to be led in the first place.  Choose to
follow, then you cannot be misled, because it is your choice.

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 20:23:41 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!

Keith Gaughan wrote:
> At 15:39 04/05/2001 -0500, you wrote:
> >Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> > > Chris Pressey wrote:
> > > > Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> > > > > Now, seriously, if I felt the need for a lang list, it's because you
> >I'm not the one who started calling it the ESOLANG list.  I'm not sure
> >who did.
> I think that might have been indirectly my fault as I keep referring to the
> Esoteric Programming Languages Ring as the ESOLANG ring and that's what
> it's called on the homepage. I think that, and the naming convention you
> mentioned, might have been the reason. Having said that, I was referring to
> the ring and definitely not the list.

Yeah, I thought so, too.  I mean, I don't blame you, not even
indirectly, really.  I mean, I don't have anything against people
calling this list basically whatever they want, but I do have a problem
with people thinking that something called ESOLANG is necessarily about
discussing language based on their preconceived notions of esotericity. 
Nothing wrong with this list gaining the association of "the mailing
list of the ESOLANG ring".  In fact, that naming convention is one of
the things that reminded me to open up to spoken languages as they
differ from programming languages mainly (if not only) in the amount of
ambiguity.

So "what does ESOLANG mean to you" is kind of my question here, for some
people they're going to think it's about new Brainf*ck implementations
for TI machines, for some people they're going to think it's about
discussing syntax vs semantics and paradigms and stuff in computational
linguistics, for some people it's gonna be about Lojban and Opus-2, and
for some (CLEARLY MAD) people it'll be "STRATEGERY"...

> >Kind of.  You're the only one who can choose or choose not to take
> >things personally.  No one else can choose that for you.  So if you
> >choose to have your feelings hurt, then, yeah, you sort of deserve to
> >have your feelings hurt; after all, you chose it.
> Quite 'american', really :-)

Yes.  Well, to be clearer, there are at least two strains of 'american
blame' that I can see.  The first is "you deserve it because you chose
it", the second is "you deserve it because I choose for you to deserve
it."  I prefer the former, incidentally.

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 20:29:36 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [.yacuabll][List-Meta-Crap] Bored.

Gerson Kurz wrote:
> So, my suggestion: Please, stop forwarding, or at least give subscribers a
> chance to subscribe to a non-forwarding list. Please. Otherwise I'll just
> unsubscribe to all those lists and keep posting to esolang, safe in the
> knowledge that you all will receive two or more copies of it in your inbox
> anyway.

I'm not in control of the forwarding but I think Panu's listening.

If the forwarding stops, list@catseye will go back to being closed (no
more commercial spam)

If not, it seems that being on ONLY ONE of lang@esoteric and
misc@esoteric is enough.  If you're subscribed to both of them, it's too
many.  If you want all traffic, go on just misc.  If you just want
"serious" traffic, go on just lang.

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 20:32:17 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [.Gertrude] [quine] [Quine]

Daniel Biddle wrote:
> I quine sinking.

I quine quining.

  http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/comics/quine.html

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 20:58:50 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [infighting] & little boxes

Frédéric van der Plancke wrote:
> I've been really busy on non-esolang projects (including real life).

There's that mistake again.

Whatever gave you the impression that real life is not an esoteric
programming language?

I think there are more important things to debug than C sources :-)

> So we're not here for exactly the same thing then.

Show me two people who are in the same place for EXACTLY the same thing.

> In general though, these are the two extremes to avoid: both little boxes
> (even though they're useful at times) and one big undifferentiated box
> (the danger of little boxes is no sufficient reason agains the dangers
> of mixing everything.)

Why should we avoid them?  Because you claim they're dangerous?  Why
should we believe you?

> I'm afraid if this discussion continues we'll just be repeating the same
> arguments again and again...

Well, *you* will be, unless you decide to be more specific.

> Let's stop here.

If you like...

Steve Mosher wrote:
>         Sure. (Actually, I was thinking it would just get _more_ interesting,
> but I'd rather not see it become heated and completely oppositional again.)

Hey, the universe is essentially oppositional.  I have no problems with
that.  As for getting too heated - if your gears are getting to hot, you
clearly need some lubrication.  I believe I *mentioned* that I've got
grease.  ACT NOW while it's going at these sinfully cheap prices.

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 22:53:18 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: [Message from ESO] November-Sierra Coincidence



Chris Pressey wrote:
> > (where I briefly
> > considered booing)
> 
> On behalf of it I thank you.
> A little consideration is all booing is asking for :-)

*smile*

> Didn't you once say something about "meaningful coincidences"?
> 
> Nah - I'm sure that was a coincidence too.

Funny, I thought that was you, not me.

> Now trust me on this one - you do NOT want to know what "November
> Sierra" currently means to me.  It's not that pretty... apropos as hell
> I s'pose, but *still* not pretty :-)

It means something to you other than "no shit?"

> > > "Herding cats is trivial once you have some catnip"
> > I have a really hard time believing this is true in the average
> > multiple-cat case.
> 
> Well they all have to be able to *smell* it of course.  It doesn't work
> if you have catnip sealed up in a lead container.

Well, for useful values of "herding", I don't see herding as the 
likely end result. However, it's been a while since I tried herding
multiple cats, actually.

Our single-cat case:
http://www.estarcion.com/goblin/

> btw, belated congrats on your new job, what is working at Blue Planet
> like?  Tetris license, if only the world were that simple, heh...
> anyway are you glad you gave them a ring or what?  :-)

Your congrats are right on time, actually. Today was Day One; I got 
into the office, they handed me some big boxes and a cordless 
screwdriver and said "new employee initiation is building your 
office furniture". Cool. All the programmers there are punchy because 
they're in the E3 crunch; I can't help them because I don't get a 
computer til the end of the week. I share an office with a pregnant
artist who has a god which is even tinier than my tiny gods:

http://www.estarcion.com/shock/cthulu2.jpg

...plus, I think she sexually harassed me before I'd been there 
for fifteen minutes, so you know she's cool.

-R


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 15:30:43 +0200
From: Georg Westenberger <gwestenb@gmx.de>
Subject: [lang] [announce][esolang] L00P


Hello everybody! 

Well, here's my first esoteric language, "L00P". 
I included a L00P->C compiler in Perl. Here 
are the specs:

- L00P programs operate on a pointer (p) to a (circular) array of 
  ARRAYSIZE 16-bit signed ints (a) which are set to 0 before the 
  program is started (ARRAYSIZE == 8192 in this implementation).

- There is an implicit loop around each L00P program  which can 
  only be left with the '&' instruction. 
  There are no other loops except this loop.

- Comments start with "//" and go to the end of the current line.

- Whitespace is ignored; so are non-instruction characters outside
  comments.

Instructions:

     + - < > , . are borrowed from Brainf*** and have the same
                 semantics.
             ; : input/output a[p] in decimal notation.
               0 a[p] = 0
               * a[p] *= 2
               _ a[p] = - a[p]
               # p    = p + a[p]    ("jump")
               @ a[p] = a[p + a[p]] ("fetch")
               $ a[p + a[p]] = a[p] ("store")
               & terminate program
               S a[p] = sign (a[p])
 (code1 | code2) if a[p] code1 else code2
 [code1 | code2] syntactic sugar for (code2 | code1)

- The "else" branches ("| code2") are optional.

Some simple example programs: 

[;>;>--@>--@>+](<<<<[>>:&|>[>>:&|<->->>>]]
// Input positive numbers x and y, print min(x,y)

[+**+*>-@+**+>;>-@S+[<_>]-<<](>[:<<.&]>+[<<.>>]-<:-<<.>)
// Input any number n, count up/down from n to zero


Any comments/suggestions are welcome.

--

Georg Westenberger ( gwestenb@gmx.de )

-- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar --
-- Type: application/x-perl
-- File: l00p.pl



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 17:07:29 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [sci] Re: [Friends-of-brainfuck] FoBF, help!

On Mon, 7 May 2001, Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote:

> Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> > Of those functions that are not mechanically computable,
> [I take it to mean: recursively-enumerable, Turing-computable]
> > there are [...] those that are indeterministically computable.
>
> Can you give an example of that ?

If you have a function that is not recursively computable, so that you
have to "guess", and the possible solutions are not enumerable
(over-enumerable for example), you have such a function. Correct me if I'=
m
wrong.

> But then, it would suffice to enumerate the integers until you find one
> that passes your automatic test.

As you can see, the point is that the set of solutions is either undefine=
d
or not enumerable.

Panu






------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [infighting] & little boxes
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:38:23 -0300

On Mon, 07 May 2001, Chris Pressey pressed some keys and this came out:
> Steve Mosher wrote:
> >         Sure. (Actually, I was thinking it would just get _more_ interesting,
> > but I'd rather not see it become heated and completely oppositional again.)
> 
> Hey, the universe is essentially oppositional. 

	You're wrong! ;) (CLEARLY)

> I have no problems with
> that.  As for getting too heated - if your gears are getting to hot, you
> clearly need some lubrication.  I believe I *mentioned* that I've got
> grease.  ACT NOW while it's going at these sinfully cheap prices.

	Hmm... does this apply for the general case? =)

-- 
Steve

"Last week the church across the street from my apartment put in a bell
tower. They ring them bells each hour from seven in the morning to ten at
night. I cover for 'em between eleven to six by tossin' garbage bins off my
roof every hour."		- Bug-Eyed Earl


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 18:37:13 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!

>such as FUZZY MATH.  After all he'll need a compiler with which to
>implement his new FAITH-BASED MISSILE DEFENCE software!

OUCH. That's really very funny. Let us pray.

>Thanks to everyone who voted.

You're most welcome.
-Daniel.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 01:09:19 -0500
From: Chris Pressey <cpressey@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!

"Daniel." wrote:
> >such as FUZZY MATH.  After all he'll need a compiler with which to
> >implement his new FAITH-BASED MISSILE DEFENCE software!
> OUCH. That's really very funny. Let us pray.

It's far from finished, but if you'd like a sneak preview, here's the
"spec" to this language:
  http://www.catseye.mb.ca/esoteric/dubyatex/

_chris

-- 
"She runs on rails but walks in beauty...
 ...flirting with scales but dancing with duty."
Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:54:33 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [Wittgenstein] Language Idea

On Mon, 7 May 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote:

> In Wittgensteins' Tractatus, the logic system is finite. That is, all sets
> are finite. Thus the quantifiers "for all x in F" means "F(a).F(b).F(c)..."
> and "there exists x in F such that" means "F(a)|F(b)|F(c)|..." and so on.
[...]
> 1) Has a computer language been written that implements this ?
> I don't know, I'm asking you.

Many functional languages and some beasts like C++ have higher-order
functions "forall" and "exists". Some logic languages also operate like
this on finite sets.

> 2) In philosophical logic, you write things like: "for each x: x in A
> implies x in B". Wouldn't you - in  mathematical logic - write instead "for
> each x in G: x in A implies x in B" where G is the set the objects for the
> () quantor are taken from ?

Yes. These are called (not sure about English, translating from Finnish)
"restricted quantors":

E_G x (C(x)) <=df=> E x (x e G && C(x))
A_G x (C(x)) <=df=> A x (x e G -> C(x))

You can easily see that these quantors conform to the same rules as
"unbound" quantors do, most notably the Ax(C) <=> !Ex!(C) rule.

> I don't know, but it would sure help the implementation. But then, would
> genious tautologies/contradictions escape notice by careful construction of
> G sets ? And surely, most of the time you have an implicit G.

Logic is full of research based on the (rather abstract) concept of
possible model classes, the definition of which however no one agrees
upon.

> 3) Obviously, if you only have finite logic, you can't get very far. But
> should not floating point numbers yer ole' computer typically displays be
> representable (given that your computer is finite, too) ? Would a "minimum
> instruction set" with
>
> - sheffer stroke
> - inclusion
> - not
> - (Ex) and (Ax) quantors
> - and possibly a bit syntax sugar
>
> more or less suffice to do 99 bottles of beer ?

Easily. It's like Chris' idea of making beta-Juliet TC by
macro-processing: there's a finite set of alphabets, but it should
suffice. (You have to define the I/O language, however.)

If you ask me, you should not use sheffer's stroke. Use conjunction, not,
equivalence.

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:07:09 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [sci] Re: platonic ideals

On Mon, 7 May 2001, Daniel. wrote:

> Not the other way around? That would seem to make more sense.
> And anyway, the mistake I'm thinking of is a deeper one: "moral
> values exist, and are not merely psychological states, or physical
> ones, or abstractions from either or both, but have their own kind of
> being."

Umph. And so enter the theories of how they can possibly relate to the
rest of the world... yuck.

> >Tarski's truth theory is the part of truth that cannot be proved. To say
> >that, for example, "5 > 3" is true iff five is a bigger number than three,
> >and that "it's raining and sun is shining" is true iff "it's raining" is
> >true and "sun is shining" is true, is a definitional issue. It often does
> >miss the point of the quirks of language, but it does show you _how_ you
> >could exhaustively define the truth of statements (that are about state of
> >affairs).
>
> Define in terms of what? (I don't know enough about his theory to
> understand this yet.)

In terms of language. Believe me, this is ingenious, but only in its own
very limited sense.

> >And that the statements had a truth value. But I'm willing to forget about
> >implications for the time being; they're more like separate statements
> >that the human does not claim but presuppose. This is a social function.
>
> As are the semantic values of both statements. That one statement

Nnah. You can study the semantic values of the statements as a symbolic
system. Of course most semantic values are bound to their purpose, ie why
the thing was said, but basically, this is not a requisite: for example,
you can study the semantic value of a given set of sentences for
consistency without knowledge of their intent.

What I said is a social function is that the semantic values of implied
statements are presupposed. You can't always tell whether implied
statements have any meaning at all. (If there's a contextless statement
"the black cat went over the bridge", does it say that there is a black
cat? Why? Why not?)

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:54:56 +0200 (CEST)
From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl)
Subject: Re: Let us handle it!




On Wed, 9 May 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:

> "Daniel." wrote:
> > >such as FUZZY MATH.  After all he'll need a compiler with which to
> > >implement his new FAITH-BASED MISSILE DEFENCE software!
> > OUCH. That's really very funny. Let us pray.
> 
> It's far from finished, but if you'd like a sneak preview, here's the
> "spec" to this language:
>   http://www.catseye.mb.ca/esoteric/dubyatex/
> 
> _chris

   Footnote 1. FINAGLE'S FUDGE FACTOR can be abbreviated FFF, which is,
   numerologically speaking, what with F being the sixth letter of the
   Roman alphabet, 666. Coincidence?

Yes, but there's even more to it. Taking the theory of five from
discordianism... F = 6th letter and 6 - 5 is 1. A is the first letter of
the alphabet, just as coincidentally the first letter of the alphabet is
A. Or if we take the hex value of F (15) and subtract 5 from it, we get
10. Now, if we line those three tens up: 101010, we have a binary number
that equals 42, which as everyone knows is the answer to everything in
the universe.

All these mysteries one finds when one has nothing better to do than
subtract 5 from things. Coincidence?

Markus Kliegl




------------------------------

From: "tommy" <mikey@janhoo.com>
Subject: per your request check it out !
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:08:17

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This mail is never sent unsolicited. You received this “auto respond” email because you or someone you know submitted your 
address to our list page. Upon submission you agreed to receive emails from us. If you did not request this information please 
accept our apology. If you no longer wish to receive our emails please see the instructions at the end of this email. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:38:31 -0700
From: "Daniel." <voice@teleport.com>
Subject: [sci] Re: platonic ideals

>  > Not the other way around? That would seem to make more sense.
>>  And anyway, the mistake I'm thinking of is a deeper one: "moral
>>  values exist, and are not merely psychological states, or physical
>>  ones, or abstractions from either or both, but have their own kind of
>>  being."
>
>Umph. And so enter the theories of how they can possibly relate to the
>rest of the world... yuck.

:) Even worse. The people who see the need to answer that question 
usually find it hopeless and give up on the idea of a separate moral 
realm; but most ethicists just ignore the issue wholesale. Hence the 
two paths I mentioned.

>  > >Tarski's truth theory is the part of truth that cannot be proved. To say
>>  >that, for example, "5 > 3" is true iff five is a bigger number than three,
>>  >and that "it's raining and sun is shining" is true iff "it's raining" is
>>  >true and "sun is shining" is true, is a definitional issue. It often does
>>  >miss the point of the quirks of language, but it does show you _how_ you
>>  >could exhaustively define the truth of statements (that are about state of
>>  >affairs).
>>
>>  Define in terms of what? (I don't know enough about his theory to
>>  understand this yet.)
>
>In terms of language. Believe me, this is ingenious, but only in its own
>very limited sense.

Ah. I don't quite get it yet.

>  > >And that the statements had a truth value. But I'm willing to forget about
>>  >implications for the time being; they're more like separate statements
>>  >that the human does not claim but presuppose. This is a social function.
>>
>>  As are the semantic values of both statements. That one statement
>
>Nnah. You can study the semantic values of the statements as a symbolic
>system. Of course most semantic values are bound to their purpose, ie why
>the thing was said, but basically, this is not a requisite: for example,
>you can study the semantic value of a given set of sentences for
>consistency without knowledge of their intent.

If you are studying the sentences for structural consistency without 
paying attention to what they're used to say, I wouldn't have said 
you were looking at their "semantic value". So I think we have a 
terminological difficulty here.

>What I said is a social function is that the semantic values of implied
>statements are presupposed. You can't always tell whether implied
>statements have any meaning at all. (If there's a contextless statement
>"the black cat went over the bridge", does it say that there is a black
>cat? Why? Why not?)

I think it says there is (or was) a black cat as clearly as it says 
anything (i.e. not very). What it says is this:
-There was a black cat.
-There was a bridge.
-The former went over the latter.
Now none of this is at all specific, and so the statement hasn't got 
a clear meaning or a truth value as it stands, but if the sentence 
were true, its truth would depend on there having been a black 
cat--the cat is one of the characters in the sentence, without which 
the sentence wouldn't stand up. So if anyone asserted the sentence, 
he would be asserting the existence of a black cat, in some sense of 
"black cat"--and if we knew what he meant by the sentence, we would 
know what "black cat" he meant--in fact we would have to know that 
first.
Anyway. If you are using "semantic value" in some particular way, 
I'll take "meaning" or something. To say "Russell's statements about 
Berkeley were true" does not mean exactly the same thing as Russell's 
statements did, it means more. It conveys more information. Likewise, 
though less obviously, for other uses of the "is true" operator. A 
sentence X usually, perhaps always, conveys slightly less information 
than the sentence Y made by applying "is true" to X.
-Daniel.




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 00:19:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Wittgenstein] Language Idea



On Wed, 9 May 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:
> On Mon, 7 May 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote:
> > 2) In philosophical logic, you write things like: "for each x: x in A
> > implies x in B". Wouldn't you - in  mathematical logic - write instead "for
> > each x in G: x in A implies x in B" where G is the set the objects for the
> > () quantor are taken from ?
> 
> Yes. These are called (not sure about English, translating from Finnish)
> "restricted quantors":

Restricted or bound quantifiers.  I have heard both.  If you want to get
technical, though, your example is still using "universal" quantifiers,
just limiting the "universe of discourse" i.e. set.  

> > 3) Obviously, if you only have finite logic, you can't get very far. But
> > should not floating point numbers yer ole' computer typically displays be
> > representable (given that your computer is finite, too) ? Would a "minimum
> > instruction set" with
> > - sheffer stroke
> > - inclusion
> > - not
> > - (Ex) and (Ax) quantors
> > - and possibly a bit syntax sugar
> > more or less suffice to do 99 bottles of beer ?
> If you ask me, you should not use sheffer's stroke. Use conjunction, not,
> equivalence.

Conjunction and negation are all that are needed.  Think NAND gates.  So
sure, you could do it with the prepositional logic.  Now could you do it
with the quantifiers, equivalence and negation?  Dunno, I'm to lazy to do
the proof.  After having to restate godel for a final in college, I swore
them off.




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:38:02 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [sci] Re: [Wittgenstein] Language Idea

On Fri, 11 May 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> Restricted or bound quantifiers.  I have heard both.  If you want to get
> technical, though, your example is still using "universal" quantifiers,
> just limiting the "universe of discourse" i.e. set.

E_G, A_G were the symbols for restricted quantifiers. So I used the
universal quantifiers to _define_ the restricted quantifiers. If there's
some other sensible domain for restriction than a set, I'd be interested
in getting an example of one.

> > If you ask me, you should not use sheffer's stroke. Use conjunction, not,
> > equivalence.
>
> Conjunction and negation are all that are needed.  Think NAND gates.  So

If you were after minimising the number of operators, yes. Then you should
go on using Sheffer's stroke or Peirce's arrow. But when it comes to
defining clauses in a handy way, apart from the "truth-asymmetric" binary
operator (conjunction / disjunction / sheffer / peirce / implication), you
should have:

a) negation, or some other elementary unary operator;
b) equivalence, or some other elementary "non-short-circuiting" binary
operator.

These are because the definition of either in terms of truth-asymmetric
operators make you repeat clauses. (~A becomes A|A, which is very bad if A
is long, and A<->B becomes ~(A&~B)&~(~A&B), which is very bad if A or B is
long.)

Kripke has an interesting solution: negation is defined by falsum, "_".
Implication is a basic operator in Kripke models (but it's not definable
by a truth table), and ~A <=df=> A->_.

> sure, you could do it with the prepositional logic.  Now could you do it
> with the quantifiers, equivalence and negation?  Dunno, I'm to lazy to do

You can't. There has to be some way for a truth value to have precedence
(like "true" in "or"): you can't form truth-asymmetric operators from
truth-symmetric ones.

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:57:46 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [sci] Re: platonic ideals

On Wed, 9 May 2001, Daniel. wrote:

> If you are studying the sentences for structural consistency without
> paying attention to what they're used to say, I wouldn't have said
> you were looking at their "semantic value". So I think we have a
> terminological difficulty here.

Most probably so. The thing you seem to be looking after, I'd call
"pragmatic value". I'm used to speaking of semantics in a very
definition-oriented way: 5 > 3 has the syntactic "value" of an expression
tree

binop-------
|	    |
number	    number

And the semantic values "true", "claim that five is bigger than three",
and so on...

> >"the black cat went over the bridge", does it say that there is a black
> >cat? Why? Why not?)
>
> I think it says there is (or was) a black cat as clearly as it says
> anything (i.e. not very). What it says is this:
> -There was a black cat.
> -There was a bridge.
> -The former went over the latter.

I'd say it could just as well mean "if there was this cat and this bridge,
the former went over the latter. No good ways to argument this; but people
use such claims all the time, like "communism is bad", without claiming
anything about there being or not being any communism around.

Maybe it's the past tense of the sentence? But then, that just becomes a
presupposition, too: "there was such a time that the events took place,
which is before the moment of saying this".  Now, people do not always use
the past tense to indicate that the events took place in the "common"
world, so I'm willing to lose this as a criterion.

> Now none of this is at all specific, and so the statement hasn't got
> a clear meaning or a truth value as it stands, but if the sentence
> were true, its truth would depend on there having been a black
> cat--the cat is one of the characters in the sentence, without which
> the sentence wouldn't stand up. So if anyone asserted the sentence,

This is exactly the point - coercing the semantic value of the sentence to
a truth value loses a _lot_ of information. From my point of view, it's a
totally different matter if the sentence is false because its toplevel
claim never took place, or "false" because there never was a black cat (at
least no black cat the writer refers to). This is almost exactly the same
reason implication is a weaker notion than if-then.

> Anyway. If you are using "semantic value" in some particular way,
> I'll take "meaning" or something. To say "Russell's statements about

Quite good. I once read the definition of "semantics" is "theory of
meaning".

> Berkeley were true" does not mean exactly the same thing as Russell's
> statements did, it means more. It conveys more information. Likewise,
> though less obviously, for other uses of the "is true" operator. A
> sentence X usually, perhaps always, conveys slightly less information
> than the sentence Y made by applying "is true" to X.

Hmm. Some philosophers say it's possible to make any statement a truth
statement by modal operators. This is not well reflected in your example,
because you chose a noun as a target for the "is true" operator, not a
claim. The basic idea is that you substitute "Russell's statements about
Berkeley" with the conjunction of those statements, thus losing the
intensional value of the claim. What do you think, can any idea be
represented by converting intensional values to extensional ones?

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:09:40 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: [announce][esolang] L00P

On Tue, 8 May 2001, Georg Westenberger wrote:

>                # p    = p + a[p]    ("jump")
>                @ a[p] = a[p + a[p]] ("fetch")
>                $ a[p + a[p]] = a[p] ("store")

This "store" is quite weird and probably not worth using. Did you follow
my monologue on the list a while back when we talked about indirection in
brainfuck?

>  (code1 | code2) if a[p] code1 else code2

This basic idea is very neat. It reminds me of a game we were desinging
with my friends, Corewar-style: all addressing is relative and very
limited in range (maybe only 100 or so bytes in either direction), only
forward jumps are allowed, and the whole memory is processed sequentially;
the "ownership" of a cell is propagated from the ownership of the writing
instruction. The point was to eliminate the need for separate threads and
bring the self-propagation model nearer that of the real world.

Panu






------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:10:58 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [SPAM?] [Poetry] Esoteric Poetry Competition ?

On Sun, 6 May 2001, markus.kliegl wrote:

> I was thinking about having an Esoteric Poetry Competition

Assurdo made a competition for INTERCAL poetry, in which I was the only
participant. :) It was fun, though.

> Any thoughts, ideas, comments... the usual stuff?

Why not. But remember to choose the languages well.

Panu




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:20:39 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: Re: [.yacuabll] Bored.

On Sun, 6 May 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote:

> Bored like shit I wrote Yet Another Completely Useless And Badly Labelled
> Language. Hello, .yacuabll world:

Call it "yet another badly documented language for which almost no example
programs are available". The documentation, by the way, looks cool, but I
wouldn't be able to program in the language with that.

Panu




------------------------------

From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: AW: [.yacuabll] Bored.
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:05:07 +0100

All GPLZ languages (except .chef) use the same internal code representation
(please take a look at "statements.py"). So, if you understand a statement
in any one language, you should understand it in all languages. At least
.((o)) has the reverse direction implemented, too : you can load a program
in .yacuabll and convert it to .((o)) [if you find that languages'
documentation more helpful :)]

And then, you can look at the .yacuabll source - its a mere 100 lines and
no, its not obfuscated, its very simple to understand (if you know Python).

But I'll make a major update to GPLZ with more fixes + more docs (e.g.
.gertrude has a problem because some of its ratios I have not found in any
document than the said Gertrude Stein original text. I'm thinking of
allowing alternate ratio representations so as to give you a higher chance
of actually coding in .gertrude; also, {} is broken.)

> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Panu A Kalliokoski [mailto:pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI]
> Gesendet: Freitag, 11. Mai 2001 13:21
> An: ESOLANG
> Betreff: Re: [.yacuabll] Bored.
>
>
> On Sun, 6 May 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote:
>
> > Bored like shit I wrote Yet Another Completely Useless And
> Badly Labelled
> > Language. Hello, .yacuabll world:
>
> Call it "yet another badly documented language for which almost no example
> programs are available". The documentation, by the way, looks cool, but I
> wouldn't be able to program in the language with that.
>
> Panu
>
>



------------------------------

From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Subject: [Waste of Time][Python shows its usefullness] Using the Intercal-Manua
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:34:52 +0100

The following ist most useful Python script will take a blank text an
convert it to a HTML table that is rotated 90 degrees.

import sys

print '<html><body><table border="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%">'
i,j,lines = 1,0,open(sys.argv[1]).readlines()
while i:
    i = 0
    print '<tr>',
    for line in lines:
        c = ''
        if j < len(line): i, c = 1, line[j]
        print '<td>',c,'</td>',
    print '</tr>',
    j += 1

You can use it to convert e.g. the intercal manual to a HTML table with 3565
columns which means IE will use 132MB memory and use your CPU 100% for ~10
seconds. (For comparison: normal memory footprint is ~10MB on my machine.)
Guess for christmas or something I'll make a special version of my website
all turned upside down...

USAGE:

c:> hihihi.py d:\input.txt >d:\output.htm







------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:39:23 +0200
From: Georg Westenberger <gwestenb@gmx.de>
Subject: [lang] Re: [announce][esolang] L00P

Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:

> This "store" is quite weird and probably not worth using. Did you follow

You can use it to create "return addresses" for "jump" instructions.
For example, you'd jump over a number of cells (which is read from
input) 
and back like this:

;$#_#

> my monologue on the list a while back when we talked about indirection in
> brainfuck?

IIRC, it was something about increase/decrease-indirection operators,
like  {{{+}}} =>  a[a[a[p]]]++ ?

--

Georg Westenberger      ( gwestenb@gmx.de )




------------------------------

From: xezwx@mail.ts.com.tw
Subject: Are You Married To Your Job -- Or Are You Open-minded?                
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:21:29 +0300


-- Unable to decode HTML file!! --


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 01:35:28 +0200 (CEST)
From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl)
Subject: Re: [Essies] ok, this is getting silly


Rather old message, I know... but I miraculously somehow managed to not
lose this one :-)

On Sun, 1 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:

> 
> > Assuming Ben doesn't return, I will run the 2001 Essies, with a
> > tentative deadline of this Halloween (31 October 2001).  I'll ask for
> > judging help when the formal announcement is made.
> 
> OK, I'm prepared to help judge this time if it comes to that.
> 
> In the larger sphere, I hope nothing awful happened to Ben.  Hopefully
> he's just pulled a Pressey and disappeared for a stretch of several
> months...
> 
> > Any questions?  Comments?  Now's the time to ask 'em, I guess.
> > > I've actually had a hankering to start another contest, but it seems
> > > somewhat wrong to do that while the Essies are still effectively
> > > unresolved.
> 
> Here is what I want (offhand - this is not a hard and fast desire) to
> start.  A contest parallel to the Essies, called, for lack of a better
> pun, the Essays.

How about EZays, though that's even worse (never trust anything that
starts with EZ or my!) :-)

> 
> That is - dissertations based on esoteric programming concepts,
> otherwise fairly free-reign.
> 
> For example - assuming these need to be categorized - we might have
> something like:
> 
> 1) Research papers.  "Evidence that SMETANA is not Turing-Complete," for
> example.  Should include the usual academic scientific stuff -
> hypothesis, experiments, observations, reasoning, conclusion, and of
> course references[1].  Judged (ideally) on scientific validity and
> value.

Sounds great. I already have some ideas :-)

> 
> 2) Documentaries.  Scientifically-neutral descriptions of peoples'
> experiences with esoteric languages.  "How INTERCAL has Warped the Minds
> of a Generation," for example.  Interviews, observations, insight and
> the like.  Judged, ideally, on journalistic integrity and value.

Hmm, doesn't sound all too interesting, but fine with me.

> 
> 3) Fiction.  Any story involving anything commonly associated with
> esoteric programming and language.  "The Brainfuck Cipher: a Spy
> Thriller", for example.  Inventiveness, imagination, insight,
> "fable"ness, and general storytelling.  Judged, ideally, on
> entertainment value and [arguably] socially redeeming content.

Sounds great as well. Just don't restrict it all to esoteric languages.
I would think anything really weird and esoteric should be accepted.

Hmm, maybe I can attach

4) Esoteric Poetry competition, described in other posts.

to this.

> 
> Would anyone be interested in participating in such a contest?

I would. Anybody else?

> 
> _chris
> 
> [1] that was just an example[2].
> [2] now I'm ripping off HHGttG!
> 
> -- 
> "Ten short days ago all I could look forward to was a dead-end job as a
> engineer.  Now I have a promising future and make really big Zorkmids."
> Chris Pressey, Cat's Eye Technologies, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
> Esoteric Topics Mailing List: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html
> 

Markus Kliegl



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:43:20 -0500
From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole <bsr@catseye.mb.ca>
Subject: [Obituary] A moment of silence in memoriam

http://news.excite.com/news/ap/010512/13/int-obit-adams

And now let us bow our heads in a short prayer.

  O Eris? You there? Hello? Hi. Seriously.
  We're *really pissed* that St. Adams kicked off, down here...
  He really deserved better than to snuff it at 49.
  He taught us all a lot, those of us who're willing to listen, that is.
  May he be remembered on this planet.
  May his soul (if it exists) be welcomed in the Land Where Zany Science
Fiction Writers Are Eternally Blessed.
  May his children outdo him, but never overshadow him.
  May his brethren continue his work and keep the world a safe place to
be unrestrictedly weird.
  May be.
  May 12 2001.
  Give us strength, O Eris. O wait, you don't do that kina shit. OK,
just let us figure it out for ourselves, then.
  Amen. Hocus-Pocus. QED.

-- 
SRI SYADASTI SYADAVAKTAVYA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADASTI CAVAKTAVYASCA
SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADAVATAVYASCA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADAVAKTAVYASCA 
says "But Noam, colourless green ideas *do* sleep furiously SOMEWHERE!"
bsr@catseye.mb.ca  ...  http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 01:08:19 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <keith@digital-crew.com>
Subject: Re: [Obituary] A moment of silence in memoriam

At 12:43 13/05/2001 -0500, Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote:

>http://news.excite.com/news/ap/010512/13/int-obit-adams
>
>And now let us bow our heads in a short prayer.

It's just not right -- all the good, interesting people die.

May he rest in peace.

K.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Gaughan <keith@nospam.digital-crew.com> | In the land of the blind, the
Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd.         |    one-eyed man is a heretic.
--------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. --



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:33:52 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: [Obituary] A moment of silence in memoriam

Keith Gaughan wrote:
> It's just not right -- all the good, interesting people die.

Well, so do all the bad, boring ones.

-RB


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 01:34:22 +0100
From: Keith Gaughan <keith@digital-crew.com>
Subject: Re: [Obituary] A moment of silence in memoriam

At 17:33 13/05/2001 -0700, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
>Keith Gaughan wrote:
> > It's just not right -- all the good, interesting people die.
>
>Well, so do all the bad, boring ones.

Yeah, but they have a tendancy to outlive all the good, interesting people.

K.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Gaughan <keith@nospam.digital-crew.com> | In the land of the blind, the
Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd.         |    one-eyed man is a heretic.
--------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. --



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:03:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Gary P. Thompson II" <gthompso@sun.iwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Wittgenstein] Language Idea



On Fri, 11 May 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:

> On Fri, 11 May 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote:
> > Restricted or bound quantifiers.  I have heard both.  If you want to get
> > technical, though, your example is still using "universal" quantifiers,
> > just limiting the "universe of discourse" i.e. set.
> 
> E_G, A_G were the symbols for restricted quantifiers. So I used the
> universal quantifiers to _define_ the restricted quantifiers. If there's
> some other sensible domain for restriction than a set, I'd be interested
> in getting an example of one.
> 

Oh nonono, I wasn't referring to your notation, merely Gerson's 
example.  A restricted quantifier over a single set is indistinguishable
from a universal over the UD--the UD _is_ a set.  I just wanted to make
the point that binding quantifiers can go further than limiting the UD.


> You can't. There has to be some way for a truth value to have precedence
> (like "true" in "or"): you can't form truth-asymmetric operators from
> truth-symmetric ones.

Excellent.  I love it when people do my thinking for me.  Especially when
it's something they enjoy =]




------------------------------

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------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Essies] ok, this is getting silly
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:03:45 -0300

On Sat, 12 May 2001, markus.kliegl pressed some keys and this came out:
> Rather old message, I know... but I miraculously somehow managed to not
> lose this one :-)

	I'm glad you dug this up, because I *did* miss it.

> On Sun, 1 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> > That is - dissertations based on esoteric programming concepts,
> > otherwise fairly free-reign.
> > 
> > For example - assuming these need to be categorized - we might have
> > something like:
> > 
> > 1) Research papers.  "Evidence that SMETANA is not Turing-Complete," for
> > example.  Should include the usual academic scientific stuff -
> > hypothesis, experiments, observations, reasoning, conclusion, and of
> > course references[1].  Judged (ideally) on scientific validity and
> > value.
> 
> Sounds great. I already have some ideas :-)

	I've got (struct metric)tonnes of ideas... 

> > 2) Documentaries.  Scientifically-neutral descriptions of peoples'
> > experiences with esoteric languages.  "How INTERCAL has Warped the Minds
> > of a Generation," for example.  Interviews, observations, insight and
> > the like.  Judged, ideally, on journalistic integrity and value.
> 
> Hmm, doesn't sound all too interesting, but fine with me.

	Hmm... I may have some interest in this one.

> Hmm, maybe I can attach
> 
> 4) Esoteric Poetry competition, described in other posts.
> 
> to this.

	Sounds cool to me.

> > Would anyone be interested in participating in such a contest?
> 
> I would. Anybody else?

	Yeah.

-- 
Steve

Over the underpass, under the overpass, around the future and beyond repair!



------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Re: [Obituary] A moment of silence in memoriam
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:11:38 -0300

On Sun, 13 May 2001, Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole pressed some keys and this came out:
> And now let us bow our heads in a short prayer.

	Bravo!

	I hear the epitaph on everything2 read, "so long, and thanks for all
the books."

-- 
Steve

Over the underpass, under the overpass, around the future and beyond repair!



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:46:31 +0200 (CEST)
From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl)
Subject: Re: [Essies] ok, this is getting silly


On Mon, 14 May 2001, Steve Mosher wrote:

> On Sat, 12 May 2001, markus.kliegl pressed some keys and this came out:
> > Rather old message, I know... but I miraculously somehow managed to not
> > lose this one :-)
> 
> 	I'm glad you dug this up, because I *did* miss it.
> 
> > On Sun, 1 Apr 2001, Chris Pressey wrote:
> > > That is - dissertations based on esoteric programming concepts,
> > > otherwise fairly free-reign.
> > > 
> > > For example - assuming these need to be categorized - we might have
> > > something like:
> > > 
> > > 1) Research papers.  "Evidence that SMETANA is not Turing-Complete," for
> > > example.  Should include the usual academic scientific stuff -
> > > hypothesis, experiments, observations, reasoning, conclusion, and of
> > > course references[1].  Judged (ideally) on scientific validity and
> > > value.
> > 
> > Sounds great. I already have some ideas :-)
> 
> 	I've got (struct metric)tonnes of ideas... 
> 
> > > 2) Documentaries.  Scientifically-neutral descriptions of peoples'
> > > experiences with esoteric languages.  "How INTERCAL has Warped the Minds
> > > of a Generation," for example.  Interviews, observations, insight and
> > > the like.  Judged, ideally, on journalistic integrity and value.
> > 
> > Hmm, doesn't sound all too interesting, but fine with me.
> 
> 	Hmm... I may have some interest in this one.

Looking at the description again, it does sound neat... as long as it
doesn't have to be serious :-)

> 
> > Hmm, maybe I can attach
> > 
> > 4) Esoteric Poetry competition, described in other posts.
> > 
> > to this.
> 
> 	Sounds cool to me.
> 
> > > Would anyone be interested in participating in such a contest?
> > 
> > I would. Anybody else?
> 
> 	Yeah.

Ok, that's two. I'd still like to hear from Chris, though.
We just have to make sure there are only a few judges or there won't
be any participants left :-)

> 
> -- 
> Steve
> 
> Over the underpass, under the overpass, around the future and beyond repair!
> 
> 
> 

Markus Kliegl



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:51:56 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Panu A Kalliokoski <pkalliok@cs.Helsinki.FI>
Subject: [lang] Re: several messages

On Fri, 11 May 2001, Georg Westenberger wrote:

> > This "store" is quite weird and probably not worth using. Did you follow
>
> You can use it to create "return addresses" for "jump" instructions.

Oh, true. I did not take into account that you use all-relative
addressing. The suggestions back then were totally based upon absolute and
absolute indirect addressing.

> > my monologue on the list a while back when we talked about indirection in
> > brainfuck?
>
> IIRC, it was something about increase/decrease-indirection operators,
> like  {{{+}}} =>  a[a[a[p]]]++ ?

That was one suggestion. Here are others:

> 	<	--p;
> 	>	++p;
> 	-	--mem[p+mem[p]];
> 	+	++mem[p+mem[p]];

These are relative, and make _all_ addressing indirect.

> ref(&) => mem[mem[p]] = p; (relative version similar to "store")
> deref(*) => mem[p] = mem[mem[p]]; (relative version similar to "fetch")
> jump(!) => p = mem[p]; (relative version: p += mem[p] as in your "jump")

Or, to replace ref and jump with an instruction that does both (more
minimal, less bf-esque):

> addr(@) => mem[mem[p]] = p; p = mem[p];

I later found out that you do _not_ need deref, and can instead use a more
bf-style idiom for that:

( addr0: addr-of-dest | source ... addr1: empty | destination ), starting at addr0
->[-<@>+<@>]

as you can see, it uses "addr" to bounce back and forth between the
addresses.

Here's my rationale on the subject:

On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote:

> equivalent to cell values. This expands the simple "fetch by address -
> store address in register" couple into three entities and operations
> between these, the entities being namely
>
> - the tape head / array pointer (has to be assignable if we want to do
> data manipulation in more than one place)
> - the current datum (the cell which the pointer points to)
> - the "indirect" datum (the cell which the currect cell points to)
>
> We have to be able to perform at least these operations:
> - change the pointer to a computed location (p = mem[p];)
> - move data from a computed location (mem[p] = mem[mem[p]];)
> - get to know where we are (mem[p] = p;)
> - tell a computed location where we are (mem[mem[p]] = p;)
> - move data to a computed location (mem[mem[p]] = ???;)







------------------------------

From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>
Subject: Fwd: Virtually Real -> Really Real
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 12:58:13 -0300


	I'd originally sent this to the cultus_sui mailing list (a yahoo list),
I figured it would be quite relevant here, especially given our contemplation
of consciousness a while ago.

	In addition, I think I'll submit this as an op-ed to Kuro5hin...

	Disclaimer: I'm sure someone will crap on me for my connotative use of
"turing complete" but that's just how I fit it into things. (As for the
crapping, go ahead, please, I'll be better for it.) In any case, the last
paragraph is an attempt to convey the relevant notions to a group that may not
be familiar with it.

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------
Subject: Virtually Real -> Really Real
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 12:22:17 -0300
From: Steve Mosher <goat@isn.net>


In Steve Grand's book /Creation, life and how to make it/ he covers a
lot of topics quite effectively (for example, it has the quickest, most
effective and most /relevant/ biology lesson I've ever encountered) even though
he mostly touches on things in just enough detail to give the reader to
understand what he's getting at: how life can exist inside a computer, and with
that life, intelligence, setience, consciousness and _all_ of that fun stuff.

	He gives a roundabout introduction to things like nondeterminsim (via
emergent systems) and reflectivity without even mentioning them by name (not
entirely true, he /does/ mention nondeterminism by name, but not 'til later in
the book than I've read up to.)

	But what I'm interested in is the topic of virtual reality... and how
it can be made to qualify for "real" status just as much as the reality we
exist in. He has some interesting things to say about simulation, which,
addmittedly, seemed dubous to me at first, primarily that first order
simulations are "just simulations" and not "real" while second and higher order
simulations are (or at least /can be/) really "real".

	His point is illustrated thus: a simulated neurone is just a simulated
neurone (his spelling, being an aesthete, I'll keep it), but a mind made of
simulated neurones is a real mind. After some explanation on his part, and some
contemplation on mine, I agree fully. He justifies it by saying that simulating
a neurone will fail to be 100% accurate but that the relevant behaviour of said
neurone can be simulated to give rise to the exact same phenomenon (at the
higher level - and this is important) - thus it is equally as real.

	The fact that it's at a higher level is important because as we know
it, it happens at a higher level as well. The chemicals in our brains are not
sentient or intelligent, nor are the neurones or any of the constitiuent parts
- it's an emergent phenomenon, which is a virtual reality in its own right -
indeed, the reality we inhabit, even on a purely physical level is likely an
emergent phenomenon itself. Grand suggests, lightly, that perhaps matter is
emergent of spirit (or, /process/, less offensively, but I too prefer "spirit"
for aesthetic reasons) like ripples in a pool.

<rant>
	I've had many of these ideas presented to me before, but /never/
as lucidly as put in Grand's book. In fact, I doubt that any of the
propagators of these ideas that I've encountered before this have had any good
reason to suggest them, other than trying to ascribe some process they don't
understand the implications of to some function they don't understand the
process behind.

	That, by the way, is the same kind of nonsense that caused Penrose
(who /is/ one cool cat, despite this) to suggest that intelligence, sentience,
etc are a result of quantum phenomena. The same kind of thing that gives rise
to the notion that breaking things apart reveals the process by which they were
formed (y'know, atom smashers) - but I'll be damned if I can find the recipie
for cheesecake by throwing it against a wall. 

	When I thought of the possibilty that by breaking things apart we're
really just "building down" (like we build up, but in the opposite direction of
scale) instead of breaking apart, I wrote a illustrative passage in my diary
starring Mr. Science and Li'l Miss Nature. The link is here if you're
interested:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/4/18/12033/2379

	I was a little perturbed at the time, so I ended the story with this:
"Mr. Science doesn't seem to care, though. He's looking for the truth, by
asking a little girl to tell him tall stories."

</rant>

	Anyway, with that aside, my new bag is emergent phenomena that are just
as real as the underlying reality, despite having "virtual" status. It's crazy,
because the only actual virtual part is the abstraction between the two
realities. Indeed, any reality could be built at any level relative to any
other reality... so a picture of a picture still contains a real picture,
'cause it could have been the other picture of the other picture in the first
place.

	I do believe there is a "completeness" measure to realities, though. In
the field of computation there is a trait known as "Turing Complete" (or TC) -
any system which is TC ( - a "Turing Machine" - TM) can implement (or emulate)
any other Turing Machine - this is also the height (and practically the
definition) of computation - any TM can compute anything that is computable. I
would like to extend this metric to realities - to say that any sufficiently
complete reality can provide the virtual foundation for any other possible
reality.

	Spooky, no?

	Thoughts?

-- 
Steve

Over the underpass, under the overpass, around the future and beyond repair!



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:30:08 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
From: internationalsales1@another.com
Subject: as per your e-mail/your file attached/we want to finance/buy your busi


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------------------------------